1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: New Bar f A n is a parallel entrepreneur, meaning 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: he doesn't just create one company, he creates multiple at 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: the same time. And one of the companies he created 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: is Moderna, the COVID vaccine maker that has inoculated hundreds 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: of millions and it's now more valuable than Merk. On 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: this episode Appeared Appear, new Bar explains his brand of entrepreneurship, 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Moderna success and his next big idea. But when you 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: came up with the idea of Moderna, did you ever, 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: in your wildest dreams, think that it would change the 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: world in the way that it has? Absolutely not um. 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: What we had thought of was that we might well 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: have the next generation of biotechnology, uh and something that 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: had never been even dreamt before, which is the body's 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: own ability to make its own drugs whatever it needed. 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: So the notion would be, we would introduce a molecule 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: that would code for the drug that we want, and 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: the body would in turn translate and make the drug 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: that it needs. That was the basic idea, which was 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: itself a fantasy at the beginning, in other words, an 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: act of imagination with relatively little proof. That platform would 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: go on to create twenty different products that were being 22 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: tested in the clinic when this pandemic hit was something 23 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: we could envision, But the pandemic itself and the ability 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: for this technology to be used overnight to fight against 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: this very nasty virus that we could not we did 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: not imagine. When you come up with an idea for 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: a company like Moderna, do you then go get somebody 28 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: to be the shet yo? Do you get somebody to 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: be on the board? How did it work when you 30 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: start a company. So our process of starting companies, which 31 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: is what my company, Flagshire Pioneering does institutionally professionally, if 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: you will, we don't start with an idea for the company. 33 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: We start with a range of things that we could pursue, 34 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: of which we try to find which one actually gains 35 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: advantage and goes forward. So Maderna followed the same exact 36 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: process we have, which is we ask questions that start 37 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: with what if. So in this case, it was what 38 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: if we could make a code molecule that, when introduced 39 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: to the body, could make any medicine we wanted. With 40 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: that question, the question is how do you do that? 41 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: Is there a way to do that that's been tried? 42 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: What gets in the way how how reliable is it? 43 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: There's all these questions ahead, and so we don't start 44 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: the company based on the question. We start an exploration, 45 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: which is what we did. So in the summer of 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: two thousand ten, we began to explore these issues. Is 47 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: it even possible? Sometimes I've likened it to kind of 48 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: an archaeological dig, except of the future, not of the past. 49 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: You kind of pick up pieces and you look, is 50 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: their value here? Is their value there? So we were 51 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: in the lab setting we started doing experiments. Now as 52 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: we went forward, we started realizing that there was actually 53 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: a path that we could at least point to forward 54 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: to be able to make this MR and a molecule. 55 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: And once we get to a stage where it's becomes 56 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: to be clear that there's some intellectual property there, that's 57 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: when we actually say, okay, how are we going to 58 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: actually create a team to lead it? And what's the 59 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: leadership structure with a CEO. Now the company has a 60 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: market value that's greater than marks. It's a market cap 61 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: of about a hundred and ninety plus billion dollars. When 62 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: you first invested, and how much money did you put 63 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: into Maderna, Well, we capitalized the first couple of years 64 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: of the company's existence. So altogether, my firm deployed about 65 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: eleven million dollars to stand up the company over a 66 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: period of a couple of years, and that eleven million 67 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: dollars has has a return of infinite amount practically no 68 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: well north of a thousandfold. But this so when Maderna 69 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: was moving forward and coming up with the idea of 70 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: coming up with this vaccine that's helping in the pandemic. Um, 71 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: what did the CEO say you did you say, I 72 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: think I've got the way to really cure the pandemic, 73 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: or what did you say to him? Well, when the 74 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: beginnings of this pandemic, we're beginning to show themselves. This 75 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: was back January of two thousand and twenty. We had 76 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: a discussion about the possibility of starting a program just 77 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: to be in a position in case this's got serious. 78 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: And and interestingly, the reason was not because it was 79 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: a pandemic. It was not a pandemic at the time 80 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: that nobody was using that word, but because we thought 81 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: we'd have an opportunity to also demonstrate one of the 82 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: hidden advantages of our apply from which was just speed, 83 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: speed of execution, speed of design, seeing the traditional biotech 84 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical world, speed is hardly ever an advantage because things 85 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: take such a long time in being approved and regulated 86 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: that going even faster often doesn't really result in much 87 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: of a game, whereas in a pandemic or epidemic we 88 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: thought we would have. Speed becomes a life or death difference, 89 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: and so that's what attracted us at first, And then 90 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: of course the situation caused us to put a lot 91 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: of our efforts into this right. But Moderna was a 92 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: relatively small company. Very few people heard of it. You 93 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: go to the government of the United States and say, 94 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: guess what, Forget Merk, forget vis or, forget all these 95 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: other companies, give us somebody. Did they laugh at you 96 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: at the time and they said we whoever heard of you? 97 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: Or was it clear that they were so interested in 98 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: anything that they gave you money that you needed? Um, 99 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: it's more the second, but even more, we were well 100 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: known in all the circles in the government from the 101 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: beginning of this effort. We partnered with nih ni H 102 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: was testing our vaccine in humans forty days after we 103 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: actually started our process. So it wasn't that they left 104 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: at us. From a point of course, they were worried 105 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: that how can a company that we don't know withstand 106 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: this type of uh capital slash importance if you will, 107 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: how can it scale up quickly? So a lot of 108 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: unknowns good news for us. Starting with Stefan and the 109 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: team he had assembled. There were all stars from all 110 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: the major farming companies. So when it was hard to 111 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: get um did people call you up all the time 112 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, so I guess, why 113 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: can you get me some of the molderner Did you 114 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: unlist your phone number or something. I did get calls 115 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: that I never thought I would ever get before from 116 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: many many country leaders. They got missed. The reality is 117 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: I couldn't do anything. I was completely I mean, nobody 118 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: could do anything legally. The entire vaccine supply was a 119 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: possession of the US government, the ones we were making 120 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: in the US. It had not been authorized for any 121 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: other use than emergency use, so any supply kind of 122 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: under the table, if you will, would be an illegal act. 123 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: I in fact told many people that I would more 124 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: readily get an assault rifle here than I could a 125 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: vaccine because it was completely illegal to do anything with it. 126 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: So I I just it was very difficult for me 127 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: to understand because they've viewed it as as an innovation. 128 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: Surely you must have some lying around and people don't 129 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: realize just how carefully governed this whole thing was. And 130 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: in a way it made it a bit easier for 131 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: us to be honest with you, because had we been 132 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: able to do this, the demand was in the hundreds 133 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: of thousands of demands not want to do so. The 134 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: applicacy is around ninety three and a half percent or 135 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: something like that, which means that if you get it, 136 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: you have a pretty good chance of not getting the virus. Right. 137 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: That's right, But now the delta variant has come along, 138 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: and presume it they're gonna be other variants. Is uh, 139 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: the moderna vaccine going to be working against Saturday? You 140 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: have something just for the delta variant. We are as 141 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: technology developers preparing for any eventuality, including looking at what 142 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: our baseline of vaccine after two doses does, which so 143 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: far six months data we have available is very, very robust. 144 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: We haven't seen any real deterioration of our protection. That's first, 145 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: against the delta virus. We have very strong protection and 146 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: we expect that will continue for a period of time. 147 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: The problem is we don't know for how long, because 148 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: do you find out when your guard is down after 149 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: your guard is down. So in order to prepare for 150 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: that eventuality, we have begun to make variant vaccines, vaccines 151 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: that have different sequences that, if needed, we could accelerate 152 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: so that we can actually use that. So I think 153 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna work very closely with regulators f d A, C, 154 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: d C here and the Europeans to figure out from 155 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: an arsenal of the beauty about the MR and A 156 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: technology is that we can actually do this type of 157 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: rapid response versus conventional about technology that takes years and 158 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: years to do the same thing. To get to the 159 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: heart of the problem my own personal situation, so I 160 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: got to moderner shots. Do I need a booster shot? 161 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: I think that the best advice so far is that 162 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: people after a certain age, and I cannot tell you 163 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: right now what that age cut off will because that 164 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: would be set by the government are most likely going 165 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: to need a booster to be well protected against the variant. 166 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: And over time, again public health are gonna to decide 167 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: if everybody should get a bits a shot. My guess 168 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: is that given enough time, we may well end up 169 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: in a situation where we have yearly, let's say, at 170 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: a minimum, yearly vaccinations, just like the flu. So Tony 171 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Falci has said that we should use this example of 172 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: what happened with the coronavirus to prepare for other potential 173 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: viruses down the road, and that hopes companies like yours 174 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: will do that. Are you working on that kind of 175 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: thing and now already are absolutely? Absolutely? A very big 176 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: part of my Darn future will be in being the 177 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: leading vaccine developer, but also with mrn A technology, but 178 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: also additional new technologies that we're considering to augment our capility. 179 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: But I should also say that within the broader flagship 180 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: pioneering context, which is where I operate, we have multiple 181 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: projects as well looking to expand the security net for 182 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: future pandemics. As we talk today, we're in Boston, and 183 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: it's probably not a surprise that many people would say 184 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: that people from m I. T. Or Harvard were involved 185 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: in MODERNA. But your background is different than many people 186 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: are in M I. T. And Harvard. You did not 187 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: grow up in this country, is not correct, That's right. 188 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: So I was born in Lebanon, Lebanon of Armenian parents 189 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: lived there till the Civil War in nineties and ended 190 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: up escaping the Civil War and growing up in Montreal, Canada. 191 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: So you were a teenager when you went to h Canada. 192 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: Was a teenager and I was extremely fortunate my family 193 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: was that they took us with basically as political refugees. 194 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: We escaped Lebanon and she went to McGill University. And 195 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: what did you major? In chemical engineering? Which was an 196 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: interesting field at the time because that's the field that 197 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: first got drawn into biotechnology when that industry started. Okay, 198 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: so after you graduated, you and then went to m 199 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: I T. Yes, I was the first graduate from the 200 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: by what was called the Bioprocess Engineering Center. It was 201 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: the first time engineers were being trained to really do 202 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: kind of advanced work in biology. And the notion was 203 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: this new industry was being born, and so you needed 204 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: engineers to come up with how tom make the products. 205 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: That's how I got in from where there are a 206 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: lot of Armenians in this MT program. I don't think 207 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: that I mean them t for many many years had 208 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: been some, but no, it was not. I was not 209 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: surrounded by familiar faces when you got your PhD. Where 210 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna go teach, which is what sometimes people do 211 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: with PhD s and that, or did you want to 212 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: go into the industry and what do you decide to do? Well. 213 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: It was an interesting time. I've reflected on it quite 214 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: a bit because, uh, because this was a new field, 215 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: and I've since realized that's how kind of advanced education 216 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: systems work. The most prestigious things would have been for 217 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: me to go teach. And here was a field and 218 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: which didn't exist biochemical engineering, and so I could go 219 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: teach anywhere. I mean, this was that they needed people 220 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: who came, you know, who were proficient in this UM. 221 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: I did not really seriously think about that personality wise, 222 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: kind of what I saw a lot of the professors doing. 223 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: I just felt that this was not my temperament. Basically, 224 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: by the way, I've since because I've taught m idea 225 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: in our business school course courses, I've since realized that 226 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: education itself, higher education has changed so much that you 227 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: can be an entrepreneur and be a faculty member at 228 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: the same time. Back in the eighties five eighty three, 229 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: that was not the case. So that that's that was 230 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: not something I pursued. The choices then were joined a 231 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: large pharmaceutical company was just beginning to hire people who 232 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: were engineers in this field. UH. And then what I 233 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: ended up doing, by a chance encounter I had with 234 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: somebody's actually the start a company, which was extremely rare 235 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: back in the mid to late eighties, let alone for 236 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: a twenty four year old immigrant with zero experiences. Your 237 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: family say, get a real job Downstarrow company. Absolutely absolutely, 238 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean even though my father was an entrepreneur in 239 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: the more trade, you know, import expert type of entrepreneur. 240 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: But but it was definitely the risk was throwing away 241 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: the education and the brand. All right, So you start 242 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: a company when you were twenty four years old, and 243 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: how did that company do? Company failed to fail, and 244 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: therefore it succeeded eventually in becoming the largest instrument company 245 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: in UH in the bad field at the time, which 246 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: was the late seven time frame. We invented a number 247 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: of new technologies that could be used to study and 248 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: make proteins, and we grew to about a hundred and 249 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: ten million revenues, about nine hundred people. Was a public 250 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: company for a number of years, lots of ups and downs, 251 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: lots of learnings, but it was for the for the 252 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: period ultimately a successful adventure, So you sort of a 253 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 1: Perkin Elmer. Eventually, yes, and so you cashed out. You 254 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: got a lot of money for a young person. Uh, 255 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: did you say I'm gonna retire now or just go 256 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: teach or just relax? What did you decide just how 257 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: to do? It was a little more complicated because I had, 258 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: along the way in the last few years, started a 259 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: co started, co founded a number of other companies. So 260 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: between ninety seven I've been involved as a co founder 261 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: of four other companies. Each of them went public, three 262 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: of them got sold. And so actually, in a way, 263 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: it was worse than just doing one thing and then 264 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: kind of calling it a day, because I had not 265 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: also exampled doing multiple things and and instead actually so 266 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: I did not consider retiring. But one thing I did 267 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: realize is that doing yet another company wasn't gonna accomplish 268 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: much just because you know, I was not drawn into 269 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: this notion of being a serial entrepreneur. And so that's 270 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: kind of when I started thinking about ideas that have 271 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: led me to do what I do now, which is 272 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, I got enamored with this notion 273 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: of parallel entrepreneurship uh. And at the time there was 274 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: not even a thing. Even now probably it isn't. But 275 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: the notion of parallel entrepreneurship was why can't you simultaneously 276 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: think about deeply about major new innovations and organizing companies 277 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: all at the same time. I was doing it individually 278 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: by partnering with different folks, and that led to institutional version. 279 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: Norm would be serial entrepreneur, where you start a company, 280 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: you finish it and go on next one. You're doing 281 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: several at the same time. Yes, not unlike what Elon 282 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: Musk is doing. He has SpaceX and he's also Tessay 283 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: years later. Yes, So when did you start raising funds 284 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: where people could give you money to invest and you 285 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: would then invest in various biotech ventures. Why did you 286 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: start doing that? So since two thousand we have operated 287 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: a series of funds, some of which has been my capital, 288 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: increasingly so even in the larger ones now and and 289 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: and the reason we did it that way, it was 290 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: very interesting, was that our idea was to deploy the 291 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: funds exclusively to companies that we conceive create the science 292 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: of which we generate, so as opposed to the typical 293 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: investment deal flow diligence, select the winners, etcetera. We don't 294 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: have any of that. Whatever projects make it through our 295 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: system get capital and they get advanced. If I had 296 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: been lucky enough to know you in two thousand when 297 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: you raised your first fund and I put a million 298 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: dollars in, how much would I have made by now? 299 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: I don't I don't have a simple answer to that, 300 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: but I'd say it's safe to say that over the 301 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: last fifteen years we've we've operated north of that are 302 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: are across everything we've done. Okay, So recently you went 303 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: out and raised a new fund three point four billion 304 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: dollars and that money came from individuals all over the world, 305 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: institutions who who beg you to come in And did 306 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: you turn people away? We did have to turn some 307 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: folks away, but we were very, very pleased with the 308 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: interest we got. Much of the capital came from investors 309 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: we've had for well over a decade, but upon some 310 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: of it was also new. These are endowments, UH, large, 311 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: large pension funds in this country. I'm happy to say 312 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: we probably represent the best the best investment multiple states 313 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: have made. It's up to them to say so. But 314 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: I know there I know the results, and it makes 315 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: me proud to look as an immigrant. It does make 316 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: me proud to have a state in some place actually 317 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: feel good about what we've been able to generate for 318 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: their own people. A lot of companies in Silicon Valley, 319 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: and I guess in the Boston area as well, Boston 320 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: Cambridge are started by immigrants. Maybe they are harder working 321 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: where they're trying to prove something. Have you observed that 322 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: money companies are immigrants founded. Well, factually they are the 323 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: majority in by different counts, certainly in the in the 324 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley area. And I've been involved in various discussions, 325 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: certainly over a few years ago when the political environment 326 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: was quite against immigration, even of talent. But but indeed 327 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: it is the case that, um, there's a lot of 328 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: immigrants who tend to get to the cutting edge of 329 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: frontiers of things, whether it's because there's things to prove 330 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: or by nature they're taking very little for granted, and 331 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: and and therefore they're comfortable with the discomfort you know 332 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: when if you change countries, let alone forcibly, it's you 333 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: really don't have much time to say what's owed to me? 334 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: And and how come I got disadvantaged. I mean, these 335 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: are all privileges of rooted people. If you're unrooted or uprooted, 336 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: you don't actually you need roots to feel like you're entitled. 337 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: That there is a completely connected concept. Now, Sometimes when 338 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: you have a great success in life in whatever area 339 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: might be, it's hard to do it a second time 340 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: because it's rare that somebody has a second great achievement. 341 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: You've had a great achievement with moderna which really did 342 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: incredible things to help save the world from the pandemic 343 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: in many ways. Do you think you can do anything 344 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: as great as that in the future, So so, David. 345 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: What matters more to me even then, one instance is 346 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: to actually create, And that's what Flagships all about. Is 347 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: that we're an experiment in whether you could institutionally make 348 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: breakthrough innovations with huge impact, regardless of what field we're in, 349 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: and to create companies that can realize that impact. If 350 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: we could do that systematically, over and over and over again, 351 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: that is such a defiant thought to conventional wisdom that 352 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: says rare things only happen rarely. Well, we're saying we 353 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: can generate an engine that can produce companies that might 354 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: be a Maderna or ten times a Maderna, or a 355 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: tenth of a Maderna. Maderna itself was not kind of 356 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: what our design goal. Maderna was the result of a 357 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: process that we had already operated multiple. Maderna was called 358 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: l S eighteen when it was born. It was the 359 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: eighteenth set project we've done. We're now on number eighty eight. 360 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: And in terms of projects that are born exactly the 361 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: same way. Sometimes people say, well, I don't like to 362 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: see people to be too successful, and therefore, can you 363 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: make people feel better by saying and you fail that 364 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: something any of your company has not worked out, and 365 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: you just said this is not going to work, and 366 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: I just write it off, or that ever happened, many 367 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: many of them, many many of them, and and in 368 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: our case quite a bit differently than it's an investment. 369 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: So before I write it off and I move on, 370 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: I can't write it off. We own the entire entity, 371 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: so we can't wash ourselves from a particular company. Look, 372 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: maybe I'll step back and say very quickly what we're 373 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: about the reason we use the word pioneering is we 374 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: leap into things that are not yet known to be viable, 375 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: and we try to make them real. So this leaping 376 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: inevitably you leap to places where there's no value. Now, 377 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: let's suppose, um we're going forward leave vaccines out for 378 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: a moment. What are the one or two or three 379 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: things that you're most interested in trying to do in 380 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: biotech that's gonna make my life better, other people's life better, 381 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: anything that makes me live longer, live healthier, avoid cancer, 382 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: is anything like that. One major theme that we that 383 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: inspires us and that we're doing a number of things 384 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: in is broadly what we call preemptive medicine or health security. 385 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: And what we mean by that is that we observe 386 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: that what we call today healthcare is really a euphemism 387 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: for sick care. And the way you know that is 388 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: because you gotta get sick to get any of it. 389 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: But and other than that, there's fitness and living a 390 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: good life. But in between, we now know scientifically that 391 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: the beginnings of disease go way before we know we 392 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: have a disease, and if we could intervene at that 393 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: time and delay or completely deterred the disease, then we 394 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: have a very different healthcare cost challenge. Let alone a lifestyle. 395 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: Currently there's no way of developing products for that for 396 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: that field because the FDA doesn't regulate it. They don't 397 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: they won't let you do it, the insurance won't reimburse it. 398 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: They need a good disease, let alone a really advanced 399 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: one to do their thing. We have to change that mindset. 400 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: So how how can Flagship contribute to this? And we're 401 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: doing this. We started five different platform companies that attack that. 402 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: Whether it's through that better early detection tests, or whether 403 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: it's creating new types of vaccines that protect even before 404 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: there's a threat. All of those things are all trying 405 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: to create an environment where government and other corporations start 406 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: doing that. Now today, the average person, i'd say life 407 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: span is maybe in the mid eighties or something like that. 408 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: Do you think it's possible, through things that you might develop, 409 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: to live to a hundred or hundred and ten or 410 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: twenty or is that a good or bad thing? I 411 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: think it's possible. I'm not so sure it's a good thing, 412 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: let alone in a planet that's dying. Uh. And So 413 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: I think that we have to think of our existence 414 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: not as individuals anymore than our our Hipathesytes in our 415 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: liver don't think of whether they're going to live. They 416 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: think of whether your whole body is going to live. 417 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: If we don't start thinking of whether our society is 418 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: going to live in our planet is going to live, 419 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: then it's a mood point as to whether we as 420 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: individuals live to a hundred and ten or a hundred. 421 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: So I think there's gonna be this reckoning that we've 422 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: got to create an environment within which it's worth living. 423 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: Did your parents live this year success? My parents saw 424 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: a success back in my I lost my parents in 425 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: the late nineties early two thousands. They saw a far 426 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: greater success than they would have ever imagined or wanted. 427 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: They didn't see the most recent few years, let alone 428 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: the last of months, but I know that they felt 429 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: that the decisions they made on behalf of their children, 430 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: particularly moving us to North America and giving us the 431 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: kind of opportunity this country gave us as as having 432 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: been more than validated. So what keeps you motivated? You're 433 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: obviously wealthy by any normal human standard. You could retire 434 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: tomorrow and be famous for what you did with modern 435 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: among other things. What keeps you motivated to work so 436 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: hard and keep doing all these things and not spending 437 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: your money on lavish kind of toys that often preach 438 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: people like to buy. I really do think that we've 439 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: seen the beginnings of a startup industry in this country 440 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: that has revolutionized the world. I think the next few 441 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: decades that industry will become professionalized, institution institutionalized, and will 442 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: do in the creativity world what institutional investors did in 443 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: the financial world. And I'm drawn to being one of 444 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: the pioneers of that if I can show one way 445 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: of doing it organizationally, kind of just methodologically and leads 446 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: to companies that do this for a living. That interests 447 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: me as as a lasting impact, of course, the fact 448 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: that every single thing we work on has societal impact. 449 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: You know, people told us, what's your social impact strategy? 450 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: Everything we work on, either through health or agriculture, has 451 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: societal impact, and so that keeps me into what draws 452 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: me and what keeps me instude at two different things. 453 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: It's an an incredible story. I always like to see 454 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: somebody from Baltimore who's made good, and you obviously have. 455 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: So Thanks very much for being with us today, Thanks 456 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: for listening to hear more of my interviews. You can 457 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever 458 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: you listen.