WEBVTT - Benmont Tench on life with Tom Petty 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.240 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.200 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.320 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.079 notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:28.320 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.720 Enjoy the episode. Ben Mont Tench has been playing keyboard 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.279 with Tom Petty since before The Heartbreakers, when they were 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.920 playing around Gainesville, Florida, in the early seventies as Mudcrutch 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.320 with Tom Petty on bass. By the time the band 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.320 moved to la and changed their name to Tom Petty 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.960 and the Heartbreakers, ben Mont's keyboard plane had become integral 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:53.360 to the band's sound. His plane is big and resonant, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.000 just like the lyrics of so many Tom Petty songs. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.120 Ben Mont blends so well with the band that you 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.360 might actually forget he's even there, like in the song 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.600 You're hearing Now time to move on from Wild Flowers. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.959 Figuring out exactly the best way to compliment a song 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.480 is what makes Rick Rubin love working with ben Mont 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.520 so much. In addition to being a founding member of 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.840 Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, ben Mont has been an 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.120 in demand session player since the eighties, he's played on 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:27.039 records by You Two, Fiona Apple, Your Rhythmics, and Johnny Cash. 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.959 Rick and Benmont got together over zoom to commemorate the 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.240 release of the Wild Flowers box set, but their conversation 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.160 veered other places too, like the Heartbreaker's time on the 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.720 road with Bob Dylan, ben Mont's early days with the 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.640 Heartbreakers in Florida, and how the album Full Moon Fever 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:48.680 led Ben Mont tench to rehab. This is broken record 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:56.920 liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:02.120 Rick Rubin's conversation with Heartbreakers keyboardist Ben Montage. Do you 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.480 remember a time before rock and roll or was there 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.920 rock and roll? From your first memories of music, I 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.959 think the first song I ever remember hearing was Frosty 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.560 the Snowman or Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and those 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.680 would have been pre rock and roll. But I was 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.760 born in fifty three. Elvis showed up on the scene 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:25.520 big time in fifty six. I remember probably sixty one 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.800 or so, Elvis put out his latest Flame. If you 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.079 don't know that song, that's an incredible song by Doc 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.520 Poems and mort Schumann, and it just knocked me completely down. 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.840 I'd been too little. I had been too little to 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.080 hear much other than Hounddog and Heartbreak Hotel, which was 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.960 so spooky it probably scared me. Elvis Presley singing his 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.840 latest flame after he'd done the army thing and all 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.120 of that stuff. When you supposedly denuded, it was magic 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.799 and I was so moved by it as a eight 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.320 or nine year old kid. And whenever was coming on 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.960 the radio at the time was mostly pop music, but 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.320 I still liked it. I liked the Fleetwoods, I liked 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.720 sad songs. I like all of that. But something about 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.160 the Beatles just blew it all out. And I think 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.640 there were bands in Gainesville before the Beatles hit. But 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.359 as soon as the Beatles hit. I was in Panama. 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.600 My father was working for the State Department. Briefly. The 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.120 Beatles hit when I hit America. When I was in Panama, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:29.480 I came back in late sixty four, everybody had a band. 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.160 I had a band. We weren't any good, but my 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.560 mom said, when we moved houses, she said, the little 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.960 kid across the street, the twelve year old boy across 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.840 the streets a pair of drums, and I know you 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.480 like and you loved the piano. Since you're born, why 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.480 don't you go introduce yourself? And I kind of dragged 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.760 myself over to introduce myself to this kid, Sandy. We 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:56.240 put a band together, and then Sandy, five years later, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:02.360 was helping carry gear for this band called Mudcrutch, and 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.600 he told me all about them and dragged me out 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.000 to go see them play. And that's the first I 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.560 saw Tom play and Mike play. I'd seen Tom hanging 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.400 around the music store when I'd go loiter, but I 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:20.040 never met him. And so in that wild, small world amazing. 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:22.920 What were your first impressions of Tom when you saw 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.800 him at that first Mudcrutch show? First Mudcrutch showed they 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.960 were so good, but something about Tom and Mike stood out, 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.559 even from Randall marsh on the drums and Tom Leaden 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.479 on the rhythm guitar or on actually second lead guitar, 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.760 and Petty was playing bass when they came out to 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.600 the booth where I was sitting illegally in this nightclub 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.640 because I was probably seventeen, you were supposed to be 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.359 eighteen or something. They came from whatever, they couldn't have 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.360 been a backstage and the astro lounge in Lake City, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:56.600 but they came toward the booth where I was sitting 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.560 with my friends Sandy and Tom and Mike. There was 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.159 just something going on. Now. The whole band was great, 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.799 and randall the drummers who I was taken with immediately. 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.480 They were so good that four piecepan. But Tom and 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.200 Might come down, it's like whoa. And they were totally nice. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.080 But there was something. There was always something warm but 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:22.320 intimidating about Patty, you know, And so I was just 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.119 a fan. I followed them around. Well, my friend Sandy 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.200 would say, they're playing here, they're playing there, They're playing 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.839 a fraternity party. And it's like, Okay, I guess I'll 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.320 go pretend to be a member of the fraternity. I 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.080 go to just sit on the floor and listen to 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.640 these guys play every chance I got. And then I 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.720 was sitting in with them pretty quickly, you know, And 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.279 then eventually I quit college to join the band. Do 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:44.800 you remember the very first time you got to play 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.880 with them? I do. There was a nightclub called Dubs 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:54.039 Dubs something lounge that had topless dancers, but they weren't 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.320 there the night I was there and mud Crutch was 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:01.200 playing like five sets a night or whatever, and my 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.800 friend Sandy said, Hey, they wanted to know if you 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.800 want to bring down your portable organ and sit in 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.919 with them. And I thought they must really be bored 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.040 down there if they want me. It was like three 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.440 years younger than any of them, and that matters when 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.880 you're seventeen or eighteen, and I thought, well, I want 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.520 to go see them play anyway, and I had the moment. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.080 The portable organ I had was heavy, heavy, heavy, and 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.560 the amp was heavy, and I drag them out and 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.120 I'm driving my MoMA's station wagon and I'm looking at 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.560 the tailgate and looking at this organ and going, so, 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.680 I really want to pick this thing up and throw 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.680 it in there, just because Mudcrutch is bored. And at 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.480 the last second I went, yeah, I'll bring it, and 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.360 I brought it and I got there and I went 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.680 in and they were just playing songs that I could 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.599 either follow or I knew from whatever records they were. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.560 They weren't super top. Forty JJ Cale's Crazy Mama was 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.080 a popular song. They played a couple of Van Morrison songs, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.080 but it didn't feel like some cheesy cover band that 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.159 does steps or learns all this parts precisely. It felt 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.840 like a soulful band playing these cool tunes, and it 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:17.880 was I fit playing with them immediately, and they were 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.559 pretty clearly enjoyed the way I was playing, and they said, 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.880 you know, we're playing the University of auditorium this weekend. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.440 You want to come and play a song or two. 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.680 There's a piano there. So I did that, and then 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.000 whenever I was home from college for a year and 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.240 a half or so, i'd sit in with them, you know, 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.400 come home for the summer playing the band. Also, from 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:40.880 the first time I sat in with them, it was 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.320 just it was just fun. It was just really natural. 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.400 It was really great. Plus, like I said, I was 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.320 a big fan, so it's like, oh, yeah, really these 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.720 guys were my heroes. If they were my heroes, so cool, Yeah, 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.560 so cool. Do you think at that point they imagine 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.560 that this was a serious thing that they'd be doing 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:00.240 or do you think it was just something they would 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.600 do for Fine, At this point in time, they were 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.440 they were dead serious about it, that's what they were doing. 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.800 And I wanted to be a musician. And I was 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:13.360 in college as an art student, and because John Lennon 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.160 went to art college and that's where he met Stu 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.680 Sutcliffe and the Beatles were born. So I was literally 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.440 in art college waiting to find a band, and I 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.680 didn't find it in New Orleans, where the college was, 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.880 but I found it back home on break and Tom 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:31.880 in particular, Mike too had the drive an ambition to go, 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.680 wait a minute, there's somewhere beyond Gainesville. Come on, let's 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.320 do this. Bands get record deals and make records with 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.640 real companies, not just pressed on their own label and 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.439 financed by a guy who owns a pepper farm in bushvill, Florida. 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.400 God bless him though. So yeah, it was a It 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.360 was serious business because we were so music was everybody's life. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.319 All you do is go over to any of your 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.200 friends houses and they put on a record, And I 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.920 go to Tom's apartment. I put on the new todd 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.920 Or Hungering record, which was incredibly psychedelic, a little too 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.560 psychedelic in ways, and he'd put on a Grand Parsons 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.120 and Namy Lou Harris record, greet as Angel and say 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.960 have you heard this? Or they'd say they played the 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.160 City Startus album and go no, no, no, this ain't 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.120 the one. Hunky Dorry that's the Bowie record. And we 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.600 just play things back and forth at each other and 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.160 learn stuff and get excited. So music was always life. 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.720 It wasn't just some passing fancy. How different was the 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:40.040 world pre Beatles to post Beatles For you guys, I 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:44.280 don't know about for them because I met them. You know, 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.120 this is like when I sat in with them, was 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.520 probably seven years into the Beatles, because it would have 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.760 been seventy I think. So the Beatles broke up, but 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:00.480 everything exploded and the songwriting was mysterious and gorgeous. It 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.240 was really deep. People say the world went to technicolor, 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.920 and I remember color. I remember that the world was 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.320 beautiful and magical and strange before the Beatles came. But 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.959 really it went three D or four D or something 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.840 when the Beatles hit. It's amazing. And I was only ten, 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.040 you know, if you're like thirteen or fourteen and then 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.120 junior high school, going too high school, that really must 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.360 have been something. For like Tom and Mike and everybody. 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.040 It was the best thing. It was the best damn thing. 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.839 Nineteen sixty four through nineteen sixty six or sixty eight. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.959 The quality of music that was showing up was another level. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.679 Can you remember, can you remember other artists or particular 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.320 tracks or albums where it was just like the world 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:47.440 stopped for you, like really the ones that changed your life. 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.319 The first time I heard Aretha, whatever it was, whether 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:56.080 it was Think or Chains or Natural Woman or Never 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.360 Loved a Man, whatever it was that came on the radio, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.440 it was Aretha. That was a stop time thing. Those 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:08.240 muscle shoals cats combined with Aretha, Franklin, some Tammy Wynette 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.400 stuff would come on the radio. It was all in 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.280 the same station. Got George Jones, you got Ray Charles, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.360 you got Frank Sinatra, you got Novelee, bands from England. 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:21.440 You might have a stone cold country hit, so that 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.520 since everybody wasn't on TV, and I'm a young kid 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.880 that's more curious about the sound than the look. I 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:34.360 honestly like, I didn't know if whoever the country singer 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.640 I heard, Tammy Wynette or whatever was black. I just 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.240 kind of like, wow, this is a fantastic or honest 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.200 to God, if Aretha was black. Honest to God, I 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.120 just was listening and hearing this and going, this is 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.400 bloody amazing. And since you had one after the other, 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.280 I mean, how can you have Frank Sinatra and Ray 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.160 Charles and the brand new Beatles record, and Wilson Pickett 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.560 and Aretha Franklin and Tammy Wynette and it's all in 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.880 a row. Yeah, greatest music of all time. Well, the 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.560 greatest radio of all time because it was so diverse. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.439 But also you drive along the FM radio in Gainesville, 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.959 do you know Walk on Gilded Splinters by Doctor John No, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.400 it's long and it is spooky. And if it's one 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.400 in the morning and you're just burning off steam, driving 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.120 like the roads between towns in northern Florida and a 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.120 song like that comes on, it's going to mess you up. 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:33.079 It was just this wonderful amount of discovery. And Tom 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.960 and Mike Bludcrutch in general loved country music, and I'd 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:42.200 pretty much written off anything that was hard country. George 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.480 Jones was country as hell, but he had songs like 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.720 White Lightning and the Races on that you couldn't deny. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.040 But they knew the stuff that was played in the 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:56.440 morning before the morning news at six in the morning, 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.120 the guys with the Billman road type hats and the 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.400 upright basis and the fills and everything that I would 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.960 just go I want to watch a cartoon. He go 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.720 past me, and they were diving into that. They're also 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:13.920 so deeply into the Rolling Stones and Bob and Wilson Pickett, 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.160 which is where we learned so much stuff. Everything was 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:23.319 blended together. Everything. They were listening to bluegrass, country, rhythm 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.839 and blues tom which c James Brown in nineteen sixty five. 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.680 Just a kid, He's gonna go see James Brown. He said. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.360 It was astonishing. They were open to everything. And they 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:39.000 got playing electric piano through a Marshall stat and turning 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.560 it up so much that it distorted like a guitar, 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.319 and we played some school auditorium and cracked the ceiling. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.880 I was so proud. Will be back in a few 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:57.840 with more of Rick's conversation with ben Mont. We're back 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.080 with more from Ben montench. You sit in an unusual 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:08.520 place for a musician because you've you are a founding 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.640 member of one of the biggest and longest running rock 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.040 bands in the world, and at the same time you're 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:22.080 maybe the most sought after studio keyboard player in the world, 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.240 which is very different. It's an entirely different world, so 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:30.120 you get to experience two different lives, whereas if you 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.880 only played in your band, your experience of music would 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.840 be one thing, but you get to play with everybody, 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:42.120 different producers, different musicians constantly, And I just want to 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.800 talk about what that's like. What's it like to experience 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:50.320 these different things versus just being the guy in the band. Well, 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.560 you know the thing that I wanted to do from 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.840 when I was pretty young and Herd Book or t 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.400 in the MG's, and then when I was fifteen or so, 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.600 got Similtis records and some Wilson Picket records that were 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.960 cut as stacks and realized these guys are playing with everybody. 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.400 I thought, well, I want to be in the band, 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.560 but I would love to be in a band like 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.840 Book continuing the MG's that's playing with everybody, or I 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.200 would love to be a session musician. And I never 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.920 thought of there's a certain echelon of session musicians that 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:24.840 I never thought of as the people who just kind 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.400 of show up as a job and do it. Now, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.600 none of the session musicians I've met or people who 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:31.200 just kind of show up as a job and do it. 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.080 There are people that are so good they can turn 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.080 sheet upside down and look at the mirror and read 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.560 it and play it on first sight. So I played 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.160 on a lot of records. I had a good run 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.600 that I'd love to do again of playing with all 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:50.120 sorts of diverse people, and maybe I can, and you 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:55.120 learn so much. But also the band was very insular 0:15:55.760 --> 0:16:01.240 and didn't know anything except our world and a couple 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.560 of our friends who were really cool musicians. And through 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:10.440 Jimmy Iovin, I found myself really in the Los Angeles 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.880 session world because he invited me along to a Dylan session. 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.000 He did, and Bob said to me come back, and 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.120 he had me work on Stevie Nicks's first solo record, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.840 and I met a whole other group of session musicians, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:25.680 and I guess they spread the word, said hey, you 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:30.040 should check this Canta. But the best thing was always 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.800 learning that, oh man, I'm not good enough to be 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.320 in this room. I better really listen up and step up. 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.920 But imagine yourself. You're in a room with one of 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.560 Bob Dylan's greatest bands, David Mansfield and everybody Keltner and 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.000 Drummond Holy Moley, and across the room is Bob Dylan 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.600 singing a song and I'm just like I'm in the 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.880 deep end. I better learned to swim and I met 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.320 all these wonderful people, James Gadson, who's just the drummer 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.520 for all time, him and Kelton and Ringo and Watts. 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.320 I got to play with all these cats. And it's 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.639 not a feather in the cap thing. It's simply a 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.919 life experience. Like do you want to, you know, stand 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.160 on the highest peak, not in order to tell people 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.119 you did it, but in order to have your breath 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.280 taken away. Yeah, And that's what that's like with the 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:28.560 Dylan session. Your first non Heartbreaker friends would call me 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.440 up to do something, but for the first few years 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.119 of the bands, Tom would not let us play sessions. 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.840 So maybe the first bunch of sessions I did that 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:42.400 had any consequence were maybe Dylan and Stevie amazing. Talk 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.840 talk a little bit about the difference in playing with 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.040 different people. What's inspiring about playing with someone different than 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.200 who you normally play with. The inspiring part is usually 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.359 if the groove is really cool. The best part is 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:58.160 if you don't have to think, But it's also really 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.520 good if you go into a room and you're challenged 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.040 to play with somebody and you can't quite and it 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.480 takes you a while to find your way in. Butause 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.600 your job is to find your way in. So you 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.200 might find a band with a bass player that you 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.280 can't really see where he's coming from, but you have 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.359 to be with him because you're part of the rhythm section, 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.159 and you find your way in. You might find a 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:24.239 drummer who has an entirely different field than you're used to, 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.400 and you have to go, how do I slot with this? 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.199 I learned one really cool thing from Danny Korchmar on 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.880 the first not the first day, but when we were 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.720 working on the Dylan record. He said, listen, if somebody 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.080 tells you to play a part and you think it's 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.920 really stupid, and you're sure, and the producers like, no, 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.520 no plays a sparts what I want, don't play it 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.320 because that's the stupid part on that record. Even if 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.240 it's a hit or whatever, that's the stupid part on 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.879 the record. And you're going to be the guy that 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.560 played the stupid part. Nobody's going to know that the 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.480 producer or held a gun to your head and made 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.880 you play the stupid parts. It's like, if you don't 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.720 think it's good, don't play it. Now. You can lose 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.399 gigs that way. If You're sitting in a room behind 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:14.040 the Hammond and the Vox Continental and Bob Dylan's Bob 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.600 Dylan is the background singers are all to your right. 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.600 The brilliant background singers are all to your right playing 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.440 percussion and singing. And across the room you see Jim 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.480 Keltner and Tim Drumm is next to him, and they 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.040 are these great guitar players are like Danny Korchmar and 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.359 Steve Ripley and Fred Tackett around the room, and Bob 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.000 Dylan is teaching you a song and the song is 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.280 every grain of sand or whatever it is. And the 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.960 piano player was great too, Carl pickhart Man. It's like 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.280 you're at a concert by your favorite musicians, but instead 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.359 of being in an audience, you're standing in the midst 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:54.240 of them. Wow. Yeah, and you're and you don't really 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.720 know the song so well. You know, it's it's a 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:02.200 it's an amazing moment of discovery being in that room 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.160 and its sounding good, and it just like it's almost 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:11.280 like it's playing through you. You know, it is playing 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.280 through you. And the thing about the sessions with Keltner 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.919 that time was that it was kind of like a 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.000 sculptor will tell you that you chisel away at the 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.880 marble and the figure will reveal itself. And when it's 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:31.639 totally revealed itself, that's that's what happens. And I would watch, 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:37.360 we would play the songs and they would slowly appear, 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.920 they'd become themselves in any session, and that's true with 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.520 Bonnie Rate, it was true with the replacements. It was 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:50.000 really hard for me to figure out what Paul Westerberg wanted, 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.199 but I think I got it. I liked what he 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.840 played better than what I played. Henley would always challenge 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.200 me to go farther and farther and farther and farther 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.520 and farther farther. No, you can do this, but it's 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.439 not there yet to a perfectionist level. That to me, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.520 I'm like, don, your rough vocal was better than any 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:11.840 of the ones that are perfect. But that's how I 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.840 am to going to going to the other extreme where 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.960 you can just you just go play and you don't analyze, 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.520 and it's just straight up rock and roll, which is 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.280 what Mudcrutch was and which is what some of the 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.239 Heartbreakers stuff was. We'd fine tune, we'd zone in, but 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.560 it was it was just this feeling of joy and 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.080 depth and sorrow and hi in the physical sense, like 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.920 you're lifted. Yeah, it felt like it pretty naturally happened 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.240 in The Heartbreakers for the most part. And then any 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:49.440 additional colors or embellishments just for a you know, if 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.280 we wanted something special for a moment, we might have 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:54.280 to figure out what that was, but that but that 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:58.280 would only be icing on the cake. Really. Wildflowers was 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.040 the exception, because I remember that Wildflowers, you were being 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:08.679 very particular about what Steve would do and reordering the 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.880 bridge is too good to be king and things like that. 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.280 For the most part, we would flow into it. But 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:16.800 Mike was saying, because we've been talking about it lately 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:21.880 with people that with you, what would happen is we 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.640 were used to playing the song and we would get it. 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.560 It would be really really good. We go, this is it, 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:29.159 this is the take, and this is kind of what 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:32.440 happened with Mary James's last dance. But we do something 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.639 and it's like, that's it. We're not going to top that, 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.520 and you would go, yeah, but try it this way, 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:42.200 and there is enough trust in you to go, Okay, 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:47.200 what if we do in a very minor way. Change 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.120 the pattern on each instrumental lick during Good to Be King, 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.280 not the piano lick, but the cello lick. What if 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.360 we do that a little bit differently here and leave 0:22:56.400 --> 0:23:00.480 it out there? It's like what But we did it 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:06.520 and that was really rewarding. After a quick break, we'll 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.440 be back with the rest of Rick's conversation with Ben Montage. 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.360 We're back with the rest of Rick's conversation with Ben Montench. 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.680 They jump right into talking about the Heartbreakers tours with 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:24.119 Bob Dylan. Talk about the shows with Bob. How did 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.840 it happen? How did it come about? Well, apparently Elliott 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.840 Roberts was managing us and he was managing Bob at 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.399 the same time, and he had this brilliant idea, would 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.600