1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you today. Former 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Assistant Administrator for USAID at tool Gwande stops by to 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: talk about the implications of the dismantling of USAID. But 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: first we have Laura k Field to talk about her 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: new book, Furious Minds The Making of the Maga New Right. 9 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Laura, Thank you so much for 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: having me Millie. 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: The book is Furious Minds The Making of the Maga 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: New Right. Now this is first of all, I have many, many, 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: many questions I want you to first talk about. So 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: this is like the intellectual movement shaping Donald Trump's agenda. 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: Now again this is Donald Trump. So it is a 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: little bit oxymoronic the idea that there's an intellectual movement here, 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: but actually there were is and like well, Trump one 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: point zero, the intellectual movement was basically like Bronze or 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: Trump two point zero, they did actually manage to put 20 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: together sort of the worst of conservative thinking and the 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: worst of authoritarianism and the worst of trump Ism, so sort. 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: Of give us the top line of what that looks like. Yes, 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: thank you. 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 3: So the book covers twenty sixteen through twenty twenty four, 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 3: and it tries to articulate the coalescence of this movement. 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 3: And it started in twenty sixteen, but as you said, 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: it was kind of nascent for the first Toll administration. 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: There are key moments. 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 3: I try to track those where they start to come 30 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 3: together in conferences and there are books published. 31 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: Is SEEPAC involved in some of these key moments, I 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 2: mean not really. 33 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 3: I'm really trying to take the one slice that's the 34 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: kind of the upper crust, right, So it's people mainly 35 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: with PhDs or who somehow or otherwise journalists or thinkers 36 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: who are crucial to this unfolding. 37 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: So who are those people? 38 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: So there's a cast of characters at the begin, and 39 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 3: each chapter kind of profiles a different one. You've got 40 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: people like Michael Anton, who was at the real forefront 41 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: of this, Patrick Denin. 42 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: Michael Anton comes from tell Us. There are these different 43 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: clusters and cohorts. 44 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 3: He's one of the main guys from the group I 45 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: call the claire Montors, who are the Claremont Institute affiliates 46 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: who people have probably heard of because of John Eastman 47 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: and the January sixth sort of coup memos that became 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 3: a real centerpiece of that. But they're also connected with 49 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 3: Larry Arne of the Hillsdale Hillsdale College, President of Hillsdale, 50 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: sort of involved in patriotic education and sort of really 51 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 3: raw raw for the American Founding. That's the first group 52 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 3: that immerved this. Yeah, second and I sort of do this. 53 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 3: This is the unfolding during the first Trump administration. All 54 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: the sort of the table is set, but they don't 55 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: have the full Yeah, they're not really in motion yet. 56 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: So then there's Patrick denin Is chapter three, and he 57 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: wrote this book Why Liberalism Failed. This is the post 58 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 3: liberal cohort, and it includes mainly Catholic thinkers. 59 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: So Raba Mari was really important at the beginning. 60 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: Glad and Pappen Adrian Vermule comes in and those are 61 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 3: the main people. 62 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: The goal is to sort of infuse the movement with religion. 63 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, in a way it's there's Christian nationalism sort 64 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 3: of pervading all the different parts of this, but they're 65 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 3: the Catholic version of this. 66 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: Of all the people, I write about. 67 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: They're the most elite and sort of sophisticated and some 68 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: of the most radical. And yes they're trying to infuse 69 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: it with religion, but more just traditional morality per se. 70 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 3: But from a really sort of state centric perspective, there's 71 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 3: some people who wanted to destroy the state and who 72 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: are attached to the kind of small government vision, and 73 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: that's the deconstructing the administrative state. But the post liberals 74 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 3: want to harness the power of the state and use 75 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: it towards what they call the common good right. And 76 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: so you even have a whole new constitutional theory written 77 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: by Adrian Vermule that seeks to replace originalism with a 78 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 3: much sort of thicker, more robust and old fashioned traditionalism, 79 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 3: which would overturn gay marriage, I think if they had 80 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: their brothers. 81 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: That kind of thing. 82 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: But it's a constitutional mechanism, and generally the post liberals 83 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: are just concerned to kind of re establish a patriarchal, 84 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: old fashioned traditionalism. Third group is the nat cons Joram 85 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: Hazzoni is the leader here and this is the organizing 86 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: sort of big tent group they formed these conferences. They're 87 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: committed to nationalism as their group sort of grounding principle and. 88 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: Where do they come from? 89 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 3: Oh, they're from all over and this is kind of 90 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: an international group. But Israeli is an Israeli American and 91 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 3: again it's kind of big tent, kind of messy. They 92 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 3: bring in people from all the different cohorts and so 93 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: it's it's not they wouldn't openly advocate for ethnic nationalism, 94 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: but you can kind of track how it's radicalized towards 95 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: something more openly Christian, more openly Nativists over the course 96 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: of the whole unfolding. 97 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: This is like the Victor Orbon kind of stuff. 98 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 3: They're all sort of there with Victor Orbon to be fair, 99 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: but yes, I think you know, he's a political actor too, 100 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: and so are the natcon so he's not super theoretical. 101 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 3: But the post liberals have gone Patrick Deneen has gone 102 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: to see Victor Orbon. 103 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: They're all kind of inspired by Orbon. 104 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: The book doesn't have too much about international affairs, even 105 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 3: though this is happening all around the world. It's very 106 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 3: America focused, but Victor Orbon does keep popping up. Yeah, 107 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 3: the sort of first half is all of this coming together, 108 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 3: and then there's January sixth and just to kind of 109 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: answer your original question about what it looks like on 110 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 3: the ground. They were sort of behind January sixth in 111 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 3: some important ways, and then they sort of took over 112 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: the some mainstream institutions in DC, like the Heritage Foundation. 113 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: You have the anti CRT move with Christopher Rufo, all 114 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: of that happening in the Red States. You have Project 115 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. You have jd Vance making it to 116 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 3: be the nominee. He's really their guy. And then finally 117 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: the you know, the victory again. I mean, I wouldn't. 118 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: That's not all on them. 119 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: Obviously, there's a whole bunch of There's a lot going 120 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 3: on in MAGA. So this is one stream of it, 121 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: but it's that jd Vance theoretical stream. This fueling many 122 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 3: of the ideas, and it's not entirely coherent. 123 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: Dar, I want you to explain to us what happened 124 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: at Heritage first, because Okay, I was at Cepack and 125 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the videos advertising Heritage and I'm thinking, oh, 126 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: this is terrible, but it's not as bad as a 127 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: lot of the other staff. And then all of a sudden, 128 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: yarrow off they go completely nuts. So how does that happen? 129 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: And also like talk us through sort of that how 130 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 1: that happens. 131 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Heritage Foundation has been giving advice to presidents, 132 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: to Republican presidents for decades. 133 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: Right, they always do this big. 134 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 3: Booklet, and they helped staff the new administrations, and that's 135 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: been going on since Reagan. In the first Trump administration, 136 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: they did help staff. They didn't put up any firewall 137 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 3: against Trump. They weren't fully anti Trump. But at around 138 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 3: that time, during the first administration, they had a new 139 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 3: president named Cake Cole James. She was the first black president, 140 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: I believe, of Heritage, and she was pretty moderate. During 141 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: the George Floyd protests, she wrote something, you know, saying 142 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: we need to take some of this stuff seriously. Kim 143 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 3: Holmes was I think the vice president, you know, right 144 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: beneath her at Heritage through that period, and he wrote 145 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: against nationalism as a principle, you know, thinking this isn't 146 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 3: the way we want to go. 147 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were like normal, They were pretty normal. 148 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: They were sort of and that meant a lot of 149 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: people left Heritage who were trumpy. They they were protesting, 150 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 3: they were thinking this isn't trumpy enough. Why have you 151 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: gone so mainstream? So normaly so paradoxically in my mind. 152 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 3: After January sixth, those two resigned. They brought on Kevin Roberts, 153 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: who was pretty much fully radicalized, very much of the 154 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 3: Claremont ethos and mindset, the kind of knowing what time 155 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: it is? 156 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: Are you ready for the counter revolution? 157 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: You know, kind of based as they say, So Kevin 158 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: Roberts came on at this point the National Conservative Group 159 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: was pretty much clearly very trumpy, pretty radical, and Kevin 160 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: Roberts went to that nat Con conference in twenty twenty 161 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: two and kind of kissed the ring of Net Coughton said, 162 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 3: Heritage is coming over to you. 163 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: We're not here to welcome you to our movement, we 164 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: are now joining yours. 165 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 3: That was a very clear symbol a lot of people, 166 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: you know, you can read accounts of this saying, thank god, 167 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: somebody's finally in there at Heritage, who understands what time 168 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: it is, who understands, you know, what Trump is a means, 169 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: and is ready to take action. Now we see all 170 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 3: of that kind of imploding because they clearly radicalized, and 171 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 3: right now, if readers are listening, there's a kind of 172 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: dramatic infighting happening at Heritage over the direction that they've 173 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: gone under. Kevin Roberts sparked by this controversy because he 174 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 3: defended Tucker Carlson, who recently hosted Nick Fuentes, who's a 175 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 3: vicious anti Semite and white supremacist. 176 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: So Kevin Roberts did that because he is ideologically aligned 177 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: with Tucker Carlson, or because he is scared of like 178 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: fill out the uh. 179 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 180 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 3: So I think what's going on is that Kevin Roberts 181 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 3: does not want to alienate Tuck Carlson because Tucker Carlson 182 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 3: is still extremely powerful in the movement. I think he's 183 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: had to walk a fine line. I think he's very 184 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: sympathetic to a lot of the radical things that Tucker 185 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: is saying, though he also claims to not be an 186 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: anti Semite or a racist, so he's he doesn't want 187 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: to lose that the clout that Tucker brings. But he's 188 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 3: also it's hard to know exactly what he thinks in 189 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: his heart of hearts. But a lot of these folks 190 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: I write about have theorized some of this under the 191 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: banner of no enemies to the right, and so this 192 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: is they've debated it, and there's arguments on both sides. 193 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: Right about whether you try to exclude Nazis from your 194 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: party or whether you embrace that because they bring something 195 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: to your base. And so that's the level of debate 196 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: that they're having, and they have it's imploded over anti Semitism, 197 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: and you know, and that these real divides between people 198 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 3: over what's happening in Israel, some of which are sincere 199 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 3: disagreements about American involvement and foreign policy, and some of 200 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: which are just disgusting anti Semitism. Least through all of 201 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: this is still rampant Islama phobia. They don't seem to 202 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: care at all about the misogyny, the racism, and they've 203 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: still got Trump as their figurehead. So it's all it's 204 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 3: I'm glad that these fissures are coming to light and 205 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 3: that there are these debates that are happening, like it's better, 206 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 3: I guess that Kevin Roberts be called to account for 207 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 3: sympathizing with Tucker Carlson given what's Tucker Carlson has become. 208 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: It's still pretty pathetic that this is the argument they're 209 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: having in the Heritage Foundation. So I'm glad donors are 210 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 3: freaking out and backpedaling on some of this. But it's 211 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: it's I mean, i'd say too little, too late, too late, 212 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: doesn't quite capture the nature of what's been happening. 213 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: Do you think that Kevin Roberts is walking a fine 214 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: line or not very smart? Oh that's the big trick here. 215 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: It's really hard to say. I haven't. I haven't. I've 216 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: spoken to a lot some of these people, not a lot. 217 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 3: You know. I was working off their own writings and 218 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 3: their public history and their tweets. But I think he's 219 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: walking a fine line. I don't think he's dumb at all. 220 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 3: I think they know he knows exactly what he's been 221 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 3: up to. I think he's foolish to have done that. 222 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: But this guy has a PhD in history. He's not foolish. 223 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 3: He's totally radicalized. I guess that's the temptation I talk 224 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: about in the book. You know, people are tempted to 225 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 3: say this is look at these idiots, look at these 226 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: fascist dummies, And a lot some of them are right. 227 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: But I'd say these are extremists, and they're very smart, 228 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 3: and they've been very successful. I think they're radically different 229 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: from most GOP voters, and that's one reason to kind 230 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 3: of take hope I think they're far more radicalized and 231 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: extreme than many voters, but they're really smart. I wouldn't 232 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 3: want to debate them, you know, it's hard. They've got 233 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: all kinds of many of them on different issues. Right, 234 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: they're super they're super well versed in their own weird 235 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: version of reality. 236 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: Christopher Rufo, I think listeners of this podcast might not 237 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: totally understand who he is. I think of him as 238 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: like a person who became famous on Twitter. So explain 239 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: that story. So Christopher Rufo is an important figure. 240 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: Who's been so effective, and so he's one of these 241 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 3: just amazing political actors. I don't put him in the 242 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 3: brilliant category of like thinkers and writers, but he's been 243 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: so savvy and so effective. He's very much of the 244 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 3: Claremont mindset, where he really poses as someone who wants 245 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: to kind of restore the true the triumphs of the 246 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 3: American founding, and. 247 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: A lot of them appeal. 248 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: I think something your listeners might find surprising is they're 249 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: constantly appealing not just to like Western civilization, but to 250 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: the great books, traditions, right, and things like the good, 251 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: the true, and the beautiful. So you have Christopher Rufo 252 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 3: who's a propagandist at bottom, and has pretty much admitted 253 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 3: as much. He's not acting in good faith. He thinks 254 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: you have to lie to the public to get what 255 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: you want. And he's been really heavily involved in these 256 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: criticisms of Higher ED that have been very effective against 257 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 3: the critical race theory. He sort of started up that 258 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: whole attack line of attack against sort of all of 259 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: Higher ED just these really clumsy lumping everything in together, 260 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 3: but also causing huge problems in Higher ED and getting 261 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: people fired. And then he's also on the new board 262 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: at New College, so basically he's on the front end 263 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: of some of these attacks on Higher ED and beyond 264 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 3: that too. 265 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 2: He's just been in. 266 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: A really effective sort of spokesperson for so much of 267 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: what's happening on the new right. 268 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: Talk us through the JD. Vance of it, because JD. 269 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: Vant is young, he's a convert, which is a strange thing, 270 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: but he's also very tied in with these people. 271 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so JD. 272 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 3: Vance, he's close with Peter Teel and he's close with 273 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: Patrick Denin, and Patrick Denin is this figure who's got 274 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 3: this deep critique of liberalism or he's arguing that liberalism 275 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 3: sort of liberal democracy per se has destroyed the social fabric, 276 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 3: made us all sort of desiring of a strong man, 277 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 3: and so he's got this critique of liberal democracy that's 278 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: sort of moored in Catholic social teaching, and so jd 279 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 3: Vance basically converted to Catholicism and converted to trump Ism 280 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 3: at exactly the same time. And so it's this weird 281 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: thing where I think he was so radicalized by some 282 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: of the ideas around him, he became persuaded that Trump 283 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: was a reasonable vehicle for this radical agenda. But he's 284 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: got his fingers in all the different parts of the 285 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: new Right. So he's happy to go speak at the 286 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: Claremont Institute and they praise him with honors. He's happy 287 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 3: to align with the tech bros right, who are kind 288 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: of on the sidelines in my book, but obviously very 289 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 3: important right with Elon Musk and Peter Teel and everything 290 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 3: that's happened so far in twenty twenty five. And so 291 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 3: he's often presented as this bridge figure between the different 292 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: cohorts because he's just happy to. 293 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: Play along with all of them, and they. 294 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 3: I think, with the exception of perhaps some cohorts in 295 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: the tech section, because there's I think some infighting there. 296 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: They're quite happy to embrace JD. Vance, and I think 297 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: they all see him as the most of them see 298 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,479 Speaker 3: him as the torch bearer for the future of their. 299 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: Movement, even despite the fact that his belief system seems 300 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: to shift so much. 301 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: I think they see it, and I think it might 302 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: This is hard to untangle because he seems from the 303 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 3: outside to be a total opportunist too, will go wherever 304 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 3: the winds blow right. But I think from their perspective, 305 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: they see him and I think he may actually be 306 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: more of a true believer convert to this far right 307 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: dogmas that that are now pervasive in these in these 308 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 3: communities and groups. 309 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: What do you think the lesson here is for people 310 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: who are hoping for a Republican party that becomes sane again. 311 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: I think that's a bit of a long term project 312 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: if you were to like just like sum them up, 313 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 3: how they got so powerful or how they got us here. 314 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 3: So I think this group has been very effective at 315 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: the culture wars, somewhat to their own peril. 316 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 2: That can only go on so long. 317 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: They're very angry, they're very hyped up, and I think 318 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: they're pretty detached from what ordinary Americans experience, even while 319 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 3: claiming to speak for that. And so I think I 320 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: write so much about their radical ideas, and they're very 321 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: effective sort of yeah, like I said, propaganda for that, 322 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: and they're on all the podcasts and they're writing all 323 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: this stuff, generating all this buzz all the time, especially online. 324 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 3: But I don't think it's real in a lot of ways. 325 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: And I think that they're quite detached from, like I said, 326 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 3: ordinary Americans and just from reality. 327 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: And so there's a lot of hatefulness here. 328 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: There's a lot of dehumanizing rhetoric, and I don't think 329 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: ordinary Americans, including Trump voters and ordinary Republicans, are really 330 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 3: on board with all of this. I don't think they 331 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 3: maybe really get just how radical it is, even though 332 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: Trump is pretty radical and his own weird thing. My 333 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: hope of my book is that it shows readers how 334 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: extreme some of this stuff is and how different from 335 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: their own understanding of conservatism is and of the American principles, 336 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: the American founding, and so that you know, in the 337 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: near term, they'll turn away from it. They'll start to 338 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 3: see some of these problems and search for something different. 339 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: That's so interesting. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Laura, 340 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: You're very welcome. Thank you so much. 341 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 4: A tool. 342 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: Gwan Day is the former Assistant administrator of USAID and 343 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: the former Initiative Director at the WAJO and the author 344 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: of the Checklist Manifesto. 345 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to past politics, Glad to be here. I would 346 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 2: love you to just. 347 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: Give us like sort of two sentences on your background, 348 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: just because I think it's so relevant to what we're 349 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: talking about today. 350 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 4: Well, I'm a surgeon up in Boston. I am a 351 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 4: professor at the Harvard Medical School in public health, and 352 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 4: I got to lead Global health at USAID for the 353 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 4: last three years up until the new administration came in 354 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: in January. 355 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: Jesus, you also have a MacArthur, You're published a ton 356 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: of books, your nose slash. I would love you to 357 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: talk about what's happening with USAID right now. 358 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 4: Well, go back to inauguration, and I was leading global 359 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: health until eleven fifty nine, twenty five hundred people in 360 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 4: sixty five countries responding to everything from a bowl out 361 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 4: breaks to are cutting off medicines to Ukraine, to dealing 362 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 4: with improving nutrition and addressing child malnutrition and HIV. So 363 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 4: at noon, I'm gone and within about six hours, the 364 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 4: President has signed an order saying that all of this 365 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 4: kind of work is being brought to halt, that all 366 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 4: foreign assistance for humanitarian purposes or otherwise is halted. By 367 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 4: the weekend, the orders are going out. Marco Rubio has 368 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 4: turned the executive order into instructions, explaining that even medicines 369 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: on the shelf, food in the warehouses cannot be distributed. 370 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 4: It comes apparent within about two to three weeks that 371 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of lives are at risk, that hundreds 372 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 4: of thousands of people will die, and Doge is swinging 373 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 4: elon Musk's chainsaw, and there is no stopping or even 374 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 4: attempting to address that concern. And so what was a 375 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 4: pause became a complete dismantling of the US Agency for 376 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 4: International Development, and that meant also the purging of the staff, 377 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 4: termination of eighty three percent of the projects and awards 378 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 4: that were placed. What was left was funds that were 379 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 4: impounded and some and the kneecapping of projects that are 380 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 4: that they did keep going but were now in a 381 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 4: much diminished state. And you know, the estimates as of 382 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 4: November are six hundred thousand dead thus far, mostly children. 383 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: Six hundred thousand dead mostly children. That needed more explanation, 384 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: So in what countries and. 385 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 4: How Yeah, one thing to understand is USAID. A recent 386 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 4: analysis pulled apart that in the last twenty years USAID 387 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 4: saved ninety two million lives, mostly children. And the way 388 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 4: it does it is two different ways. One way is 389 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 4: direct humanity, terran assistants and disasters. You know, this is 390 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 4: the largest non military civilian capacity. And when Russia, for example, 391 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: caught off access to pharmaceutical supplies and medicines basically, and 392 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 4: pharmacies were shut down after the invasion when they bombed 393 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 4: the oxygen factories in Ukraine, that the immediate humanitarian response 394 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 4: we oversaw included getting medicines back into the country, opening 395 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 4: up a new avenue for supply chain, getting oxygen factories 396 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 4: going again, and you know, responding to hurricanes, responding to 397 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 4: climate disasters, et cetera. But then a large part of 398 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 4: what USA does is also working on big, long term 399 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 4: projects to advance. For example, one of the earliest things 400 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 4: that did when John F. Kennedy established it was work 401 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 4: towards the eradication of smallpox, which was achieved in nineteen 402 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 4: seventy nine. Now, the eradication of polio, the control of 403 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 4: HIV and TB. There are twenty six million people who 404 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 4: lives have been saved from HIV. There's similar numbers of 405 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 4: children whose lives have been saved by developing new approaches 406 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: that save lives of people with malnutrition. Those are hard 407 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 4: to see. So these deaths, you know where, Well, there's 408 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 4: almost one hundred countries where USA IT is active. Is 409 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 4: heavily in low income countries. It was once in places 410 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 4: like Latin America and India and Korea where that kind 411 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 4: of work advanced not just survival but getting them to 412 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 4: become middle and then higher income countries that go from 413 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 4: aid partners to trade partners. Africa is a big part 414 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 4: of where that IT now is. That's where some of 415 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 4: the poorest and still lowest income places in the world art. 416 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 4: It's not the only one, and so a fair amount 417 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 4: of the work that I did over the last three 418 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 4: years was in that country. 419 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: So I'd love you to just talk us through. 420 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: Did anyone come in and fill the gap or their 421 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: philanthropies or there are other countries. 422 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: Did China do some stuff for now? 423 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: Well? 424 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 4: So that's part of what I went to find out. 425 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 4: So I traveled starting in the spring to Kenya. In particular, 426 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 4: Kenya's growing middle income economy is following the pathway that 427 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 4: India went to go from advancing into becoming a wealthier 428 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 4: country and partner. But it's surrounded by very poor places, 429 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 4: some of them unstable. Somalia, South Sudan. What I saw 430 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 4: there was number one, we had cut off food aid, 431 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 4: we had cut off the medicines, we had cut off 432 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 4: importantly programs that helped the country bring expertise, that got 433 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 4: their vaccination rates up and got the HIV under control, 434 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 4: things like that, And then other countries, if anything, followed 435 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 4: the US lead and change as well. Why Well, big 436 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 4: part of the reason is when we also switched our 437 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 4: stance on Russia and were no longer consistently on the 438 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 4: Ukraine side, Europe had to invest in their defense Jesus, 439 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 4: they pulled money out and then the terriffs hit, and 440 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 4: that has also affected the currencies of other countries. 441 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: Japan is not just because tariffs. 442 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 4: They've had thirty percent lower currency in the last five years, 443 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 4: and so even when they hold their spending stable in 444 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 4: a place like Africa, they've lost ground. And they also 445 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: have not stepped up the force. So China has China 446 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 4: has done some increased spending, but you know when we 447 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 4: pulled out a who China helped come in to say 448 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 4: that the World Health Organization is a priority for them, 449 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 4: and that has led to some funding, but nowhere near 450 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: where our leadership was. It's not just the funding. The 451 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: US has been a singular force for leadership around cooperation 452 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 4: to take on big, ambitious things that have doubled the 453 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 4: human life span. That is the special place that America 454 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 4: has led and that that's the biggest thing that has 455 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 4: been harmed Jesus. 456 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: So talk us through other countries where this is happening, 457 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: where this sort of shortfall is from USAID and other 458 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: regions more generally, if you want to just give us 459 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: sort of like the topography of it. 460 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, so if we think about I'll give it an example, 461 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 4: which is global health security, so detecting where there are 462 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 4: outbreaks happening across the world. There's a network of about 463 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 4: fifty countries that USAID has made sure that we have 464 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 4: coverage around the world. So for example, let's talk about 465 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 4: Central Asia, Russia and China. We do not have any 466 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 4: line of sight if they have bird flu coming, We 467 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 4: don't know it. We didn't know it. With COVID we 468 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 4: find out when across the border. 469 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 2: But this will be worse. 470 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 4: This could be worse. 471 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 2: So Central Asia. 472 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 4: We while I was in office, we established relationships with Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, 473 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 4: and Mongolia, working with their virologists, getting access to their laboratories, 474 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 4: investing in strengthening their capacity, and they became part of 475 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 4: a network that monitors for bird flu so that we 476 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 4: see it when it is anywhere in that region before 477 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 4: anybody else, before waiting for it to get to us. 478 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 4: Similar you know, we have countries, you know, Jamaica, Brazil 479 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 4: where we've set up this kind of capability that has 480 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 4: been shut down. We don't have that bird flu monitoring 481 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 4: and capacity in that same structure at all, and we 482 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 4: don't have the fast response capabilities. The team is a 483 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 4: fraction of the one that we had present and it's 484 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 4: in it's no longer supported by these office people in 485 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 4: offices around the world that are readily at hand. And 486 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: so you know, you have real harm and loss of 487 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 4: capacity for the United States and for our interests, not 488 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 4: to mention humanities. 489 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: Greater risk of a really bad pandemic without any trap. 490 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 4: That's right, Whether it's ebola erupting in a region, or 491 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 4: it's the next bird flu, or you know, there's a 492 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 4: case of bird flu now and that's cropped up in 493 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 4: Washington State and new human case of a new variant 494 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 4: a bird flu, and we don't have that same level 495 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 4: of surveillanist to know where might that have come from originally, 496 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 4: Now that there's a good chances that it erupted in 497 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 4: the United States, but one of the things is that 498 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 4: our public health was weak and abroad. We have now 499 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 4: been dismantling it here at home too, with the ways 500 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 4: we have kneecapped CDC, the National Institutes of Health and others. 501 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm surprised at how little like fill in there's 502 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: been from philanthropic interests or from other countries. I mean, 503 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: has there been anything anywhere for like this sort of 504 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: preparedness staff the Global Health or now? 505 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 4: So, Yes, the World Health Organization plays an important role 506 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 4: in having that kind of you know, they can have 507 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 4: partnerships in every country to have emergency response and so on. 508 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 4: They have had because of the US cuts, have had 509 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: to lose twenty five percent of their staffing. Overall, countries 510 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 4: are stepping up and it would have been worse than that, 511 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 4: China most most notably. But what I would say is 512 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 4: this film that I talked about is called Ravenus Choice. 513 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 4: You know, it's hard to see what exactly is happening 514 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 4: on the ground, and we're the reason we made this 515 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 4: film was a group of filmmakers who followed me as 516 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 4: I went into Kenya and you can see the various partners. 517 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 4: All of the cuts have led to a situation where 518 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 4: people refugees coming can only get one meal a day, 519 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 4: not enough protein to really survive. And then the story 520 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 4: is of a mother who is with her child, sick 521 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 4: and malnourished, trying to navigate the system to find their 522 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 4: care and get help. There have been some efforts by 523 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 4: philanthropies that have tried to fill in the gaps, but 524 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 4: it's so much money, right, It's not just that it's 525 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 4: so much money, it's that they could put money in. 526 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 4: But you know, what we were doing was supporting training, 527 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 4: having people that you see in the film who have 528 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 4: lost their jobs as midwives or as community health workers, 529 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 4: and then the expertise that brings capacity. You know, we 530 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 4: taught them how to lower their death rate for severely 531 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 4: marish children from twenty percent to under one percent. And 532 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 4: it's one of the untold miracles of the last twenty 533 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 4: years is that there are over a million children whose 534 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 4: lives are saved now because of the discoveries that the 535 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 4: US made and other partners in research on how to 536 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 4: do that and then designing these therapeutic foods that get there. 537 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 4: And philanthropy is playing a big role and has played 538 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 4: a big role in trying to keep that chain moving. 539 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 4: But they don't have the power, not to mention the size, 540 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 4: but the power of the US government to you know, 541 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 4: bring countries and have them coordinated to accomplish all the 542 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 4: nuts and bolts that make it happen. 543 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: So incredibly depressing. I've known about this story and my 544 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: husband is always talking about it. 545 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: Just say the number again. 546 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, we have lost already six hundred thousand lives as 547 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 4: of November under conservative estimates of what has happened. And 548 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 4: you know, at the same time, the administration has professed 549 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 4: in total ignorance of it. They say there's not a 550 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 4: single life, Mark Rubio. It's recently a few weeks ago 551 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 4: saying there's not a single life that's been lost, and 552 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 4: it's just not true. And they know it's not true, 553 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 4: but they have been indifferent to that harm. 554 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: If Democrats win the midterms, I guess they could do 555 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: hearings which could maybe bully the administration into reopening some 556 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: of it. 557 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 558 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 4: Well, I say there's two things. Number one is that 559 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 4: if the Congress can pass a budget, which is an 560 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 4: open question, even the Republicans restore funding from the NIH 561 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 4: for public health for humanitarian assistants abroad, they themselves support 562 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 4: this happening, and you could start rebuilding some of that capacity. 563 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 4: But the capacity was built over six decades. It involved 564 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 4: networks of millions of people that we enabled to make 565 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 4: stuff happen in a coordinated way. That coordination and that 566 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 4: trust will take years to build back. 567 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Because some of this is this Pocket recision for seven 568 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: billion dollars of AID, right, that's right, that russ fought 569 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: passed after Republicans and Democrats in Congress approved the aid, 570 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: and then they clawed it back with the Pocket recision. 571 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 4: Right, the Pocket recision removed funds. For example, one of 572 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 4: their core areas. Of the funds that removed was maternal 573 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 4: and child health survival. HIV funds were preserved. HIV has 574 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 4: been cut about fifty to sixty percent, and that's one 575 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 4: of the best off areas. 576 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: And were they preserved because of petfar and the history 577 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: of Bush's involvement. 578 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: In it, or is there something else? 579 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 4: There was advocacy in lobbying that helped keep it going. 580 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 4: You had people like Susan Collins stepping in and Murkowski 581 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 4: stepping in to say, we'll put our bodies on the 582 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 4: tracks for the HIV work. 583 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: But you know, people Republicans. 584 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 4: Were not doing that around maternal and child health survival. 585 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 4: They're not doing it around sustaining vaccination around the world, 586 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 4: the single biggest contributor to reduction in child mortality. Forty 587 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: percent of the gains of the last half century have 588 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 4: come from vaccines. And you know they're being cowed by 589 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,719 Speaker 4: what Trump is doing on vaccines to not defend vaccines 590 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 4: abroad or at home. 591 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: So dark, I. 592 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 4: Want to say, it doesn't have to be that dark, right, 593 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 4: So number one is we can't let what's happening go invisible, 594 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 4: right the denials. We have to bear witness to the 595 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 4: harm being done. And then what can change in midterms 596 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 4: is holding people accountable for the live lost. This is 597 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 4: what Richard Reeves, the Storian called public man made death 598 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 4: and that is something that we can speak out about 599 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 4: and then hold people accountable for and change. 600 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 601 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: Oh man, all right, we'll give a call to action 602 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: for people. 603 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 2: What could they do? 604 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 4: I'd say there's two things. On a personal level, you know, 605 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 4: it's organizations like UNICEF, the International Rescue Committee, Helen Keller, 606 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 4: Internet National, These are key food aid and multi malnutrition 607 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 4: organizations and child survival organizations. There's am REF Health Africa. 608 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 4: Also there are local organizations like that. But I'd say 609 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 4: number two is please see the film Rovenus Choice, which 610 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 4: is up for an Oscar nomination, and more attention. We 611 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 4: can get to telling the story and saying this cannot 612 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 4: go away. You know, you can see it on YouTube, 613 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 4: you can see it on the New Yorker website. It's 614 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 4: been done with the New Yorker where I'm a on 615 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,239 Speaker 4: staff there as well. And I think we want to 616 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 4: have the word out and make it clear that this 617 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 4: is not forgotten after nine months. 618 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate this, Mollie, 619 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: thank you for having me on. 620 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 4: It's You're awesome to do it. 621 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 622 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: every Monday Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 623 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,239 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 624 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 625 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. 626 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.