1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 3: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 3: controlled by one man. Well, he's a legitimate, super genius, legitimate. 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 4: He says. 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 3: He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 3: be different. 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 3: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 3: on ed Elon. 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 5: Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 12 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 6: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 3: Welcome to Elanink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 3: March twenty six, twenty twenty four. I'm your host, David Papadopoulos. 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 3: Our colleagues here at Bloomberg have a big investigation out 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 3: this week into a black market problem that is vexing Starlink, 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 3: the satellite operation of SpaceX. We have a special story 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 3: from our sister show, The Big Take, that digs into 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 3: that investigation and all the places starlink kits are being 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 3: used where they shouldn't be. But before that, there's been 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: plenty of news in elon Land, and we're going to 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: round it up for you all rapid fire. First, Tesla 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 3: will now do full self driving mode demonstrations for every 24 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 3: new car buyer. Second, a federal judge tossed out a 25 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 3: lawsuit that Musk's X had filed against the Center for 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 3: Countering Digital Hate. Last will unpack an intercept investigation that 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: found that X fought against the secrecy surrounding government surveillance 28 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: of social media users while it was profiting from user 29 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 3: data sales. To break all of this Elon News down, 30 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: we have Danahull, who's our full time Elon Musk reporter. 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 3: Hello Dana, Hello, And Max Schaffkin, senior reporter and editor 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: at BusinessWeek. 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 5: Good day, David, Good to see you. 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: Max. Okay, so we're gonna start with these Tesla full 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: self driving demos that are now, according to mister Musk 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: Dani Hall, are now mandatory before anyone leaves a Tesla 37 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: A lot explained. 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so full self driving is a feature that you 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: have to pay for. It currently costs twelve thousand dollars. 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: And this is all about margins. I mean, we are 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the quarter. Tesla has got to 42 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: move cars. It is in their interest to move cars 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: that are as fully tricked out with all the options 44 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: as possible, and so Musk is now basically saying via 45 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: this email that we confirm that, like you know, the 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: salespeople have to give a demo because people don't realize 47 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: just how awesome FST is. 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: Okay, sorry, so Danne to interrupt you. Sorry, So, I 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: actually thought erroneously that this was some way, somehow about 50 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 3: security and safety and making sure they're on the right 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 3: side of the law with regulators. You're telling me it's 52 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 3: actually them saying, hey, we really got to pedal this thing. 53 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: Yes, perhaps I am a cynic, but we have a 54 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: week left in the quarter, and this is like a 55 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: really important quarter in terms of moving vehicles and making 56 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: that profit. I mean, both things could be happening simultaneously. 57 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: They want to be a little bit more careful about 58 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 1: how they explain full self driving beta or full self 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: driving capability to prospective customers, given the regulatory environment, given 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: the fact that we're on the eve of some of 61 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: these big autopilot lawsuits. But at the same time, twelve 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: thousand dollars that's just all gravy. That is a big 63 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: way for Tesla to make money. I mean, so I 64 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: think both things are happening, and they're really kind of 65 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: pushing this. 66 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 5: There's no nothing in this memo about being more cautious 67 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 5: or emphasizing the limitations of the technology, which is what 68 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 5: you'd expect if the goal were to like head off 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 5: potential litigation or regulation. Instead, it says just the opposite. 70 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 5: It says, people don't understand how great this thing is 71 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 5: from the point of view the regulators. Right, that's the 72 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 5: opposite message that that Tesla could potentially be conveying. So 73 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 5: I totally agree with Dana. I think this is about 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 5: this is a sales thing. It's like you're in the 75 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 5: car dealer and they want you to upgrade to the 76 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 5: you know, LX package or you know over the GX 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 5: and then whenever they're going to tell you how great 78 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 5: the leather seats are in the clearcoat. This is Elon 79 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 5: Musk's version of that. Right, This is a pure margin 80 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 5: product that if he is able to get more people 81 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 5: to adopt, would be very valuable, and of course has 82 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 5: additional value down the road because because at least by 83 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 5: by Tesla's account, all this data that they're collecting makes 84 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 5: the system better. 85 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: And I just like to point out, like if you 86 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: go on the Tesla website today, and try to order 87 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: a new model. Why it says you will receive one 88 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: month trial a full self driving capability with a new 89 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: vehicle purchase. So not only are they demoing it for 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: you when you're there at the lot, but then if 91 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: you buy the car, you get it for free. It's 92 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: like a subscription, and then the idea is that you 93 00:04:58,640 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: keep it. 94 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 5: Is this like an app TV thing where like you 95 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 5: get the three months and they start billing you if 96 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 5: you don't cancel, do they bill you the twelve grand 97 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 5: or do you have to like, you know, wire additional 98 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 5: funds to like maintain your subscription. 99 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you can do a subscription or you can 100 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: just pay for it. I mean, I'd be very curious 101 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 1: to see how the billing looks. 102 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 3: What I will say is this, and then we will 103 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 3: move on to point number two here. But you know 104 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 3: this must be important for Elon and trying to drive 105 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 3: sales of this thing. The quote that we have from 106 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 3: the memo he sent out to all staff was, I 107 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 3: know this will slow down the delivery process, but it 108 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: is nonetheless a hard requirement for Elon to do anything 109 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 3: that slows anyone down. That is anathema to him. Is 110 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: it not DNA. All. 111 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is a great way to like sandbag 112 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: the quarter because if they have a lousy quarter, they 113 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: can be like, oh, well, we rolled out this new 114 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: thing where you've got where the sales process is longer, 115 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: and this slowed down some things towards the end. 116 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 5: And it's not just about the quarter, because, as we've 117 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 5: talked about on this podcast many times, the self driving 118 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 5: story is crucial to Elon Musk's long term vision and 119 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 5: maybe even more importantly, the extremely elevated value of Tesla's stock. 120 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 5: Like this, if the story that Tesla cars drive themselves 121 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 5: and they're that they're basically going to be robotaxis in 122 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 5: twelve months, which Elon uns Musk has essentially been saying, 123 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 5: you know for the last decade, almost if that were 124 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 5: to break down, the stock would fall apart. And so 125 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 5: so by demonstrating the value to people, it allows this 126 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 5: story to be maintained. 127 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: And the stock Tesla stock has gone up today as 128 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: a result. It's like up what five six percent, I. 129 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: Stock that has mostly been going down of late having 130 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 3: a bit of a rebound today. Okay, very good. Max's 131 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: topic number two on our discussion list, A court tossed 132 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: the lawsuit that X had brought against the Center for 133 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: Countering Digital Hate, tell us what happened here? 134 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, Center for Countering Digital Hate is an advocacy group 135 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 5: that had published a series of reports that other news organizations, 136 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 5: including Bloomberg, had written about and picked up on, essentially 137 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 5: talking about white supremacy and racism on X. X sued 138 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 5: the Center for Counting Digital Hate for, according to a lawsuit, 139 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 5: like hacking the service. Basically, they were attempted. What it 140 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 5: really felt like is they wanted to combat these reports, 141 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 5: essentially silence this nonprofit group. They came up with sort 142 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 5: of a novel way of doing so, which the judge rejected. 143 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 5: The judge in the ruling said, it's really transparent, what's happening. 144 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 5: This is about trying to silence a critic, That this 145 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 5: is essentially an attempt to do a defamation lawsuit without 146 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 5: filing one, and he tossed out a case. 147 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: So then what's the takeaway here on all of this? 148 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 5: I mean, this lawsuit always seemed like spretty thin. Yeah, 149 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 5: I don't like it. 150 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: Really. 151 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 5: It seemed, as the judge wrote in the ruling, essentially 152 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 5: a way to threaten other critics. X has been trying 153 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 5: very hard to rebut criticism from media outlets, from non 154 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 5: profit groups, from anti hate groups that there's a lot 155 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 5: of hate speech on the platform and the problem is 156 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 5: the problem with this effort to shut down the criticism 157 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 5: is that some of the calls coming from inside the house. 158 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 5: Elon Musk himself has been essentially the vector for some 159 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 5: of this. And when you look at what is slowing 160 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 5: advertising down, it's not, you know, the Center for Countering 161 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 5: Digital Hate, all respect to their research, it's what the 162 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 5: boss is doing. 163 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: Okay, Max. Topic number three and our rapid fire list 164 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: a freedom and information request that was done by the 165 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 3: intercept that led to a big piece on a very 166 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: thorny topic explained for our listeners. 167 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is a story that is probably less 168 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 5: about Elon Musk and more about Twitter. Of course, Elon 169 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 5: Musk now owns the company that was formerly known as Twitter. 170 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 5: But essentially what this is about is two things. One 171 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 5: is a long standing effort by Twitter to essentially stop 172 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 5: the US government from requesting information about users without disclosing 173 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 5: those requests. And at the same time, Twitter's data is 174 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 5: being sold to these data brokers that are then turning 175 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 5: around and selling them to governments. So there's kind of 176 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 5: a whiff of hypocrisy here. I'll say this issue is 177 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 5: not exclusive to Twitter, although it has been a big 178 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 5: deal with Twitter for like a decade the company. When 179 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 5: you think about what it does, it's this real time 180 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 5: social network. You're seeing what's happening. That's valuable to advertisers. 181 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 5: That's valuable maybe to pollsters and to journalists. It's also 182 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 5: of course valuable to police and to you know, in 183 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 5: certain countries authoritarian governments who might want to monitor protests. 184 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: This data that. 185 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 5: Is being mined is essentially public data, but it's being 186 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 5: aggregated through this through what is known as Twitter's fire hose, 187 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 5: essentially the data feed of all the tweets, and that 188 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 5: is sold. 189 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: To third parties. 190 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 5: And it can, as news outlets have pointed out, and 191 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 5: as this intercept story is saying, can be misused or 192 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 5: can be used in ways that are somewhat uncomfortable if 193 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 5: you're a pro free speech maximalist, as Elon Musk says 194 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 5: he is. So now we have two stories essentially in 195 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 5: which you know that call in a question in some 196 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 5: sense how serious Musk is about his commitment to free speech. 197 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 3: Right and so as you were saying, this case predates 198 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: Musk and X. It began under the previous management when 199 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: the company was Twitter. But Musk and his crew have 200 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 3: continued to push it. Is that right? 201 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's understandable why they've done it because it's 202 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 5: always been this somewhat uncomfortable situation where social media companies 203 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 5: are asking users to trust them, but of course you're 204 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 5: giving all this information to third party, and then that 205 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 5: third party can be asked by the government. 206 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: To turn it over for the government. Right. 207 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 5: So, I don't think it's like hugely surprise causing that 208 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 5: they continued the litigation. It does, I will say that 209 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 5: to the point that the intercept makes, if you were 210 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 5: really committed to free speech, and if you were a 211 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 5: you know, somebody who's worth you know, pushing, you know, 212 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 5: over one hundred and fifty billion dollars, you might question 213 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 5: whether that data brokering business, the business of selling fire 214 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 5: hose data to third parties, is worth pursuing. 215 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: I guess it's a it's a little reminder to everyone 216 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 3: out there that anything you post publicly can and potentially 217 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 3: will be used against you. That was great, Dana Max, 218 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for happing on. 219 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for having us, always a pleasure. 220 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 3: Okay, So now, as promised, we're going to hand the 221 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: microphone over to our colleagues and the Big Take podcast, 222 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 3: who have a story about Starlink with huge geopolitical consequences. 223 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 6: Hovering hundreds of miles above Earth is the largest single 224 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 6: constellation of satellites. It's called Starlink. 225 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 4: Falcon Starlink LDS go for launch, and. 226 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: There is that call out that we are go for launch. 227 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: Watch as Falcon nine takes our stack of Starlink satellites 228 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: into orbit. 229 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 6: Starlink is part of Elon Musk's company SpaceX. It's thousands 230 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 6: of satellites provide Internet all over the world through portable 231 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 6: kits about the size of a home computer monitor. The 232 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 6: idea is to reach even the hardest to reach places, 233 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 6: places where other providers can't operate or don't. On its website, 234 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 6: Starlink proclaims that it's available almost everywhere on Earth, and 235 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 6: that's a big selling point for the service. But there 236 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 6: are some places starlink isn't supposed to be. 237 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: If you look at Starlink's website, they have a very 238 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 4: good map of global coverage. They duet to fully have 239 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 4: certain countries blacked out, or they'll have dates when starlink 240 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 4: services will become available, and some of the countries where 241 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 4: it's more controversial, they will have no data available. 242 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 6: That's Alan Crawford, a senior editor at Bloomberg. Some of 243 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 6: those blacked out countries he's talking about represent places where 244 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 6: Starlink's services don't have a licensing agreement, haven't been approved 245 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 6: by their governments, or where the devices have been barred 246 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 6: for sale because of US sanctions. But a Bloomberg investigation 247 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 6: has found that those barriers haven't stopped Starling's kits from 248 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 6: getting into the hands of folks on the ground through 249 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 6: a burgeoning black market. 250 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 4: What really struck me was the extent of this issue, 251 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: that it's not just an isolated case here and there, 252 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 4: it's pretty much everywhere. 253 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 6: Today on the show, what starlink kits seeping into illegal 254 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 6: markets could mean for the company and the geopolitical stakes 255 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 6: of letting that market continue or trying to shut it down. 256 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: Three two one Sarah than. 257 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: I lived. 258 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 6: This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. 259 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 5: Alan. 260 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 6: Can you start by just telling us about starlink. 261 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 4: Well, Starlink is a system of high speed Internet. It's 262 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 4: very dependable, and it's based on satellites. The company is 263 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 4: launched over five thousand satellites and it's using these to 264 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 4: provide high speed Internet in parts of the world where 265 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 4: connectivity is not very good. 266 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 6: Essentially, SpaceX launched the first Starlink satellites in twenty nineteen. 267 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 6: In just a few years, it's become the largest satellite 268 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 6: network in orbital space. It's also become a major source 269 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 6: of revenue for SpaceX, along with government contracts and contracts 270 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 6: with other companies to launch their satellites. 271 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 4: The issue here for Starlink is that a lot of 272 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 4: countries where they don't have good current are kind of 273 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 4: keen to get access to this for obvious reasons, but 274 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 4: at the same time, they're not willing to just freely 275 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 4: give over control to the company, and this has led 276 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 4: to an issue that it's come up in the reporting 277 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 4: for the story that there are many countries around the 278 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:25,359 Speaker 4: world where there's no licensing agreement between the government and Starlink, 279 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 4: and the trouble is that people are turning to the 280 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 4: black market to obtain Starlink devices. 281 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 6: Anyway, your reporting found that Starlink terminals have ended up 282 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 6: in places that are under US sanctions, where starlink is 283 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 6: barred from operating, or just where starlink does not have 284 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 6: a licensing agreement. Can you give us a brief overview 285 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 6: of what your team found is happening. 286 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the starlink kits. These are the kind 287 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: of dish and receiver. They're widely advertised over social media, 288 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 4: usually like WhatsApp groups on Facebook groups. There's countries like 289 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 4: Sudan in North Africa, which is subject to US sanctions. 290 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: There's a brutal civil war underway there and there have 291 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: been allegations of genocide. Millions of people have been displaced, 292 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 4: and our reporting shows that the rebel forces which have 293 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 4: been accused of committing these human rights abuses are using 294 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 4: starlink because again, this is like a vast country with 295 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 4: poor internet systems in parts, but the internet's been brought 296 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 4: down and the two sides are, you know, accusing each 297 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 4: other of having done that, and in the meantime they're 298 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 4: using starlink. 299 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 6: What can starlink itself do about these kits ending up 300 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 6: in the wrong hands. 301 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 4: Well, that is really the numb of the matter. We 302 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 4: put a set of quite extensive questions to starlink and 303 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 4: they have yet to respond. Nevertheless, people we spoke two 304 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 4: who are experts in the industry, who work in the industry, 305 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 4: they said that it is feasible to geolocate these systems 306 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: as soon as they're activated. You can see where they 307 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 4: are in theory, you flick the switch and you turn 308 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 4: it off. 309 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 6: Right, I mean, is that something they've done in the past. 310 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 6: They have that capability, they have they used it. 311 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 4: What we were told was that they have moved against 312 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 4: illegal use in South Africa, and so the technicalities of 313 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 4: how they're doing that I'm not clear, but they have 314 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 4: attempted to clamp down on the illegal use there. But 315 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 4: equally we were told that it hadn't been very successful, 316 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 4: that they had only managed to shut down some ten 317 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 4: percent of the terminals that were in use. 318 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 6: So Dan is just one of the conflict torn countries 319 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 6: where starlink terminals are being used and where they're banned. 320 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 6: It's not just that militias want communications devices, it's also 321 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 6: that ordinary people need access to the internet, and that 322 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 6: dynamic is not so unique to Sudan. All over the world, 323 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 6: in places under crisis where blackouts and connectivity issues are common, 324 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 6: people are trying to get their hands on Starlink kits. 325 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 6: You mentioned Sudan, and you've got a lot of detail 326 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 6: about how Starlink is getting into Sudan and then how 327 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 6: it's being used there. Can you walk us through that trajectory. 328 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 4: In terms of Sudan, there are intermediaries who are obviously 329 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 4: looking to make money and selling this in the black market, 330 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 4: and they're bringing it in from Gulf countries that are 331 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 4: apparently bringing it through Dubai and there are roots that 332 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 4: they go through Darfur and South Sudan and bring them 333 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 4: into the country that way. You know, when you buy 334 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 4: a starlink system, you get the physical equipment and then 335 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 4: like a mobile phone, you get a tariff a plan 336 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 4: and you can pay extra for roaming. And they're using 337 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 4: it in these territories where there's no agreement to do so. 338 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 6: So they're buying a kit in a place where Starlink 339 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 6: does have a licensing agreement, but they're buying this roaming 340 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 6: plan so they can use it in places that are 341 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 6: perhaps not under that agreement. 342 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 4: Exactly. The reporter Sam and Marxy actually caught up with 343 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 4: traders and spoke to them in person, and so in 344 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: terms of social media, These are essentially like small traders 345 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 4: that are online that are taking advantage of a loophole 346 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 4: or black market to import these devices and sell them 347 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 4: at a markup. In some cases we found they were 348 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 4: offering advice on how to shelter these devices so that 349 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 4: they're not detected by the authorities, not digitally but physically. 350 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 4: You know, they were giving advicely, don't put it in 351 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 4: an obvious part of your roof, you know, keep it 352 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 4: to one side. And at certain times. 353 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 6: This raises questions about local regulators and their responsibility to 354 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 6: catch that these kids have been smuggled in and are 355 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 6: being used. 356 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 4: Governments and countries like South Africa where there is no 357 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 4: licensing agreement with Starlink then they have issued the Telecoms 358 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 4: Regulator has issued clear warnings against people using this because 359 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 4: it's illegal. 360 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 6: Let's talk about the implications of this, Especially in a 361 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 6: conflict like the Russia Ukraine War. Starlink can have a 362 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 6: massive impact on battlefield communications. What role has starlink played 363 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 6: already in the Ukraine Russia War. 364 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 4: At the onset of the war. Back in February twenty 365 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 4: twenty two, Elon Musk offered the starlink system to the 366 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 4: Ukrainian government military, which they were obviously more than happy 367 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: to accept. There was subsequently a deal done between the 368 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: Pentagon and the Ukrainians, and in terms of that were 369 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 4: never made public. But nevertheless, we've seen plentiful evidence that 370 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 4: Starlink terminals are used in Ukraine. But what is new 371 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 4: is that as of February this year, the Ukrainians said 372 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 4: that Russia is now starting to use it as well, 373 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 4: which would be very much against US sanctions. And Musk 374 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 4: said on X his social media platform that they were 375 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 4: not knowingly selling any terminals to Russia. But nevertheless, there 376 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 4: are posts on Twitter or video of Russian soldiers opening 377 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 4: Starlink kits. It's impossible to verify these, but the point 378 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 4: is that it's a widespread phenomenon. 379 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 6: Finding the technology and shutting it down is one thing, 380 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 6: but any attempt to systematically address the problem could mean 381 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 6: dealing with the big man at the top. When we 382 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 6: come back, how SpaceX's controversial CEO Elon Musk factors into 383 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 6: any attempts to rein in Starlink's black market boom. 384 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 3: We're back. 385 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 6: Bloomberg Senior editor Alan Crawford has been telling me about 386 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 6: how Starlink kits have been circulating in countries where the 387 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 6: system doesn't have agreements in place, and efforts to rein 388 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 6: that in haven't been wholly successful. But there's one person 389 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 6: we haven't really talked about much yet who's a big factor, 390 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 6: Elon Musk himself. He's the CEO and founder of SpaceX, 391 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 6: the private company behind the Starlink satellite system. Here's what 392 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 6: Alan had to say about Musk. 393 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 4: Musk is known to weigh in on not just the 394 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 4: war in Ukraine caused by Russia's invasion, but on various 395 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 4: different aspects of US foreign policy, and that's what gets 396 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: to some of the concerns that we heard voiced. There's 397 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: the perception of a potential conflict of inter interest because 398 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 4: Elon Musk is a private sector he is a supplier 399 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 4: of services to the US government, not to play NASA, 400 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 4: and he's taking these satellite payloads for the US government 401 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 4: into space, and so there are obvious national security implications 402 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 4: if a company like Starlink were to lose control of 403 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 4: a satellite based system, or we're even just to exercise, 404 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 4: you know, limited patrolling of its own system. 405 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 6: To dig into these possible security risks and the broader 406 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 6: question of Musk's role in all of this. I spoke 407 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 6: with my colleague Dan Flatley, a national security reporter at 408 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 6: Bloomberg who's covered the government contractor relationship between Musk and 409 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 6: the US. 410 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: Musk has a ton of contracts. I mean, there's an 411 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: argument that could be made that Elon Musk would not 412 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 2: be Elon Musk without the US government. I mean he is, 413 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 2: you know, starting in the early two thousands with SpaceX, 414 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 2: done lots of contracts with NASA, with other parts of 415 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: the US government in terms of launching satellites and other 416 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: types of things into space. He does business with the military. 417 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: Starlink is being used in Ukraine, but he also has 418 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: links to the Chinese government through Tesla, So he's sort 419 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 2: of has his hands in a lot of different spaces. 420 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 6: How could starlink terminal's bypassing sanctions, for example, cause national 421 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 6: security concerns for the US if they're so entangled with 422 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 6: Elon Musk's companies. 423 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: So, you know, starlink is both a tool of communication 424 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: and could be viewed as something that's an asset in 425 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: terms of national security by the US, but it could 426 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 2: also be a detriment to US national security depending on 427 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: how it's used. And when you have someone who's as 428 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: unpredictable and mercurial as Elon Musk is, but is also 429 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 2: so technically proficient and offers a service that nobody else offers, 430 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: you're sort of right on the bleeding edge of what 431 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: could be used for good or what could be used 432 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: for ill. And I think that what US national security 433 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: officials that we talked to in Washington, d C. Feel 434 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 2: like is that they don't have enough of a sense 435 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 2: of where Elon Musk is on any given day on 436 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: a lot of these issues, that he is both a 437 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: trusted partner in somebody that US national security officials are 438 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: somewhat wary of at the same time, but there's no 439 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 2: alternative really to him for a lot of things, especially 440 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: against SpaceX and stuff like starlink. You know, there's not 441 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: a lot of other comparable sort of providers out there. 442 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 6: What could it mean for Musk and his companies if 443 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 6: they aren't able to address this issue, if it does 444 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 6: become more of a priority of the US government to 445 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 6: stop this and Starlink is enable to stop it, that's 446 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 6: a really good question. 447 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: I think you have to start with the question of 448 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 2: does the US government want to stop this, and it's 449 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 2: not totally clear whether they do, because there are some 450 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: instances where the US government actually wants to encourage the 451 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: use of starlink in some countries, whether it's Ukraine or 452 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: Iran potentially, you know, there is a school of thought 453 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: that more communication in some of these countries is better 454 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: because it sort of opens it up to US markets 455 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: and you know, sort of the US way of thinking 456 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 2: about certain things. I think the question is are these 457 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 2: terminals being used for military operations, are they being used 458 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: to coordinate attacks? Are they being used in some way 459 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: that would represent a significant threat to national security? And 460 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: at that point does the government have a vested interest 461 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 2: in getting involved. You know, anytime you have a technology 462 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 2: like starlink that is so far advanced compared to what 463 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: else is available out there, you're going to have people 464 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: trying to get their hands on it. And that's one 465 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: of the things that in some cases the US government 466 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 2: wants to prevent and in other cases wants to encourage. 467 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: Take Venezuela, for instance, where starlink terminals are showing up. 468 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: Venezuela is under heavy US sanctions, but not every individual 469 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: in Venezuela is sanctioned, so you know, if somebody is 470 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: using a starlink terminal to access the Internet and they're 471 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 2: not under sanctions and they're not under export control restrictions, 472 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: then that's really a question for that country's government. If 473 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 2: they are under US export controls, then that is a 474 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: question for the US government. 475 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a really complicated web of responsibility global interests, 476 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 6: and ultimately it comes down to who has the control 477 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 6: and who has the will to exert that control. 478 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, absolutely, And again, this is not 479 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: a traditional company. This is not a traditional individual that 480 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: you're dealing with. I think, by any metric, Elon Musk 481 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 2: is not your typical, you know, entrepreneur. He's very outspoken, 482 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: he's very unpredictable, and at the end of the day, 483 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 2: the government, the US government in this case, is relying 484 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: on him for a lot of different things and is 485 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: not able to exert as much control over his activities 486 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: as it might in a more traditional relationship. 487 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to the entire Big Take team who worked 488 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 3: on that episode, especially Sarah Holder, Adriana Tapia, Aaron Edwards, 489 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 3: Naomi Ing, Veronica Rodriguez, Beth Ponzo, Nicole Beemster Boor, and 490 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 3: our very own Naomi Shaven, and thank you to the 491 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 3: elon In Team. As always, this episode was produced by 492 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 3: Magnus Hendrickson, who is also our supervising producer. Naomi Shaven 493 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 3: and Rayhan Harmanci are our senior editors. The idea for 494 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 3: this very show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering, 495 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 3: and we get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott. The 496 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 3: Elon Inc. Theme is written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa 497 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 3: and Alex Sugi Yurra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, 498 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 3: and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. I'm 499 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 3: David Papadopoulis. If you have a minute, rate and review 500 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 3: our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See you 501 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 3: next week.