WEBVTT - Neil Carrier on Khat 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:45.360 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, before I 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.559 introduced today's guest, I just wanna bring you up to 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.200 date on a little actually disappointing news for me, which 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:58.400 is that, uh, this first version of Psychoactive will unfortunately 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.400 come to an end uh in late January when we 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.959 complete two seasons. And I have to say, I mean, basically, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.600 what's happened is that the two key backers of Psychoactive, 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:14.399 which is I Heart and Darren Aronovski's company Protozoa, UM, 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:16.560 you know, I have done it, have made really made 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.479 a wonderful investment in this uh and the audience has 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.399 been growing, the reviews have been fantastic, But unfortunately, and 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.920 I understand this and empathize with it, the the numbers 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:31.039 of listeners is not yet significant enough to justify a 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.680 continue investment. So we'll likely be taking a break at 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.400 the end of January and trying to figure out how 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.760 to bring Psychoactive back in some similar but slightly different 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.440 form with different backers. So at this point, what I'd 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:46.960 like to say to you is that if you've been 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.800 enjoying the podcast, UM, please poster your comments, put them 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.520 up on where you know, whether it's Apple or Spotify 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.160 or I Heart or Google, wherever you listen to your podcasts. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.559 So I hope to keep Psychoactive going into the future. 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:01.600 I've really love doing it and I've got a wonderful 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.560 feedback UM, but part of its future will depend upon you, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.760 the listeners, and how much you can you know, not 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.920 just send your positive feedback, but spread the word, encourage others, 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.120 Pierre's friends, students, teachers, whatever to listen so that we 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.040 can build this audience as big as possible. Okay, Well 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:24.680 that said, let me introduce today's guest. He's Professor Neil Carrier. 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.920 He's a professor of social anthropology at the University of 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:33.480 Bristol in the United Kingdom, and he is one of 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:38.760 the really leading experts in the world, both about drugs 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:43.880 in Africa and more specifically about a drug called cot 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.320 spelled k h A T or q a T. And 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.760 I'm delighted to have him on Psychoactive today. So Neil, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.040 thanks so much for joining me and my listeners on 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.000 Psychoactive Pleasure. Ethan then, yeah, thank you very happening to me 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.160 me on the podcast. So now I realized that many 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.480 of you may never have heard of cod. I mean, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.360 I've been fascinated by it because I've been studying drugs 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.600 for many decades, and it doesn't pop up much in 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.519 the news in the United States, and occasionally you read 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.400 about a bust by the d e A or local authorities, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:20.840 typically directed at as Somali or Ethiopian immigrant communities living 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.600 in the United States, or maybe at a transshipment that 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.160 gets caught at a port um. But it's got a 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.160 long and rich history, and I wanted to discuss with 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.960 Neil today, both not just about cod and its unusual history, 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:39.400 but also how thinking about cod in relationship to other drugs, 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:46.080 like like coffee, like tobacco, like coca like, opium like 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.120 even cava. I mean, how we think about these drugs 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.440 comparatively in terms of their indigenous uses, in terms of 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:56.400 their modernization, in terms of international markets and all of that. So, Neil, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.240 why don't we just start off if you could explain 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.840 to our listeners what exactly is cat? What does it 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.440 come from, what does it do? How far back does 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.040 it does its history? Go, start us off with it 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:12.000 with the answers to those questions. Sure, thank you, Ethan. Yes, well, 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.960 basically cat comes from either a shrub or a tree. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.480 Cat comes from the kata julius plant, which which can 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.880 grow is quite a small shrub or can grow into 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.719 something quite a bit a bit larger into a full 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.200 blown tree, depending on on how it's how it is 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:33.400 produced and cultivated. And basically it is the the the 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.479 product that is sold of the young stems and leaves 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.120 that shoot up from the main branches of the of 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.760 the shrub of of the tree. And these have have 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:48.320 stimulating properties mainly due to some compounds that resemble amphetamine 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.479 in the in how they how they work on the 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:55.920 on the central nervous system. Those compounds are cathinone and 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.839 and catheine those are the two key elements, and cathinone 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.640 is basically a sort of cousin of the amphetamine was 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:06.120 somewhat similar effects. That's right, and it's quite interesting, I 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.000 think pharmacologically there has been quite a quite a bit 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.920 of work done on all the different types of compounds. So, 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.680 as you know, with a lot of these plants, including 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.800 cannabis and the like, people tend to focus on particular 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.200 compounds TH, HC or or what have you. And it's 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.880 quite similar with cat as well. So a lot of 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.359 the focus pharmacologically is on this substance calvin one, but 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.440 there are a lot of other compounds within within cat 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.359 that you know have been researched in immoral or less detail. 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.080 But basically it is these these leaves and stems are 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.240 consumed by by chewing um, and people build up a 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.479 wad of cat in their in their cheeks and chew 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.599 often often for quite a few hours at least for 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.760 for a time, constantly building up this ward in the 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.520 in the cheek, so maybe a little bit like like 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:59.080 chewing tobacco or chewing coca. So this one is constantly 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:04.120 replenished and this is what gives releases the stimulating properties 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.640 of the of the substance m so similar in the 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.760 same way that's say indigenous people's oblivia Peru, Columbia elsewhere, 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.920 will chew the coca leaf and and slowly a slow 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.640 drip of cocaine gets released, or in some cases people 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.799 will chew tobacco and the nicotine gets released. Similarly, people 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.200 will be chewing the cart and the catino and eventually 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.839 the cassine will get released, and that's what provides the 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.279 pleasant feeling I guess of of engaging in this. That's right, 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.000 and I think it's key like. The way it's consumed 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.080 is quite a key aspect of cat like like with 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.719 coca and chewing coca, because it is actually put it 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.160 a more measured release rather than taking a pure compound 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.200 in in one go, it's kind of released over the 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.400 hours of the of the chewing session, which is a 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.440 more gentle effect. Really then then would be say taking 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.279 the isolated cabin on. A friend of mine actually had 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.880 a really really nice way of explaining the or describing 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.440 the effects of cat as being something that if you 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.920 if you sit down in an armchair and you're not 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.400 quite comfortable, but then suddenly you just shift your body 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.920 and you find that place where you know your body 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.040 is completely comfortable. Cat seems to be a little bit 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.680 like that. It is quite a quite a subtle effect, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.200 you know, the way it makes you makes you feel 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.559 but it but you know, it is quite a quite 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:29.080 a pleasant substance. And the history, I mean, does this 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.240 go back millennia? Does it go back a thousand years? 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.080 Does it have a history somewhere at the coffee or 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.560 to old bi Um or what would you compare it to? 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.440 And well, it it does go back a long time. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:46.200 I think in records it's probably about them one millennium 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.760 where we have records, especially in the region of Ethiopia 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.440 and Yemen. There's a lot of early early records that 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.680 text your records from that kind of region. Um. And 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.480 it's it's similar to coffee actually, so probably about the 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:05.560 about a similar timeline to two coffee and associated I 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.600 mean with coffee is associated. You know. Part of it 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.360 is both the frisky goat story of realizing that this 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.120 thing could wake up in the morning and also then 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.400 beginning to use in order to help staying awake for 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.080 the early morning prayers in in Islam. Um is there 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:23.160 something similar? I mean, is is more associated with Muslims 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.360 than with Christians or or our Animist or other types 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:31.040 of religions. Oh, it very much is um And sometimes 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:35.480 there's an explanation given that for Muslim people without with 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.920 restrictions on alcohol, that something like a cat can kind 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:44.360 of fulfill that social social role um uh that alcohol 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.839 does the man for many of the society. So there 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.440 is that kind of argument. But it it does link 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:54.600 with especially um uh forms of Islam again kind of 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.000 more in the Ethiopian region, if there are links with 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.880 all night prayer session in Sufi Islam, and and in 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.800 northern Kenya, where I've done quite a bit of work, 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.840 you do get it's it's consumption associated with things like 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:14.760 spirit possession sessions, which do tend to involve kind of 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.880 all night sessions. So you know something there is like 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.240 a functional aspect to it, you know, something that's quite 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.040 useful for keeping people going in these these kind of 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:28.040 religious religious settings. But it's not it's not psychedelic in 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.319 a sense of people using a peyote or using ebogo 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:34.959 or things like that. Right, people aren't hall loosening the 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.160 influence of this. They're more getting into a slightly modified 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.920 state of consciousness. That's right. I mean, it's it's not 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.640 a direct psychedelic in that that way. I think, like 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.920 a lot of these things, and the way contexts plays 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.080 a role on how the effects have felt though, um, 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.160 you know, perhaps in those kind of consumption contexts, um 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.000 it might have a you know, be able to generate 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.680 some sorts of altered aches, you know, along with the 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.920 kind of music that would be going on, the drumming, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.520 this kind of thing. So context can maybe give it 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.599 a slight effect like that, But generally no, it's it 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.360 is a fairly gentle form of amphetamin. Now, Neil, if 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.840 we look in at the current time, I mean, if 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.880 you look in the countries in the Horn of Africa 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.760 as well as in the emigrant communities throughout the world, Um, 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.360 I mean, how many people are probably chewing cut on 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.559 any one day? I mean today are there are there 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.480 probably ten million or five million or twenty five million 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.360 people in the world chewing cut? And is it? Is 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.240 it over is it overwhelmingly? And Yemen and then in 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.280 Somali and ken you how does it break out to 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.480 be honest that there really isn't the the evidence yet 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.520 to state with precision, I think how many how many 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.679 people would be consuming over any one day, but it's 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.680 certainly consumed over a vast area. So all the way 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.000 from Yemen like you like you say, all the way 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.079 actually down to the Eastern Cape in the South Africa, 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.680 Southern Africa, you do get cat cat growing wild all 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.839 the way down that region. So even in the Eastern 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.679 Cape there's people who do consume it. And it's also 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.920 imported into South Africa from places like like Kenya and 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.560 Madagascar as well. Actually as A is a place principally 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.960 with the influence of Yemenis who settled in northern Madagascar 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.199 centuries ago. But Northern Madagascar as well as another place 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:36.160 where we're quite a bit of cats is consumed um. 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.080 But the other sections of society where it's very very 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.520 very popular. It's become very popular principally again for this 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.640 funk more functional used by people like truck drivers, people 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:51.720 like night watchman either even students studying for for exams. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.079 And culturally as well, it's become quite associated in places 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.880 like Kenny with with quite a youth culture, so they 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.640 very popular amongst them a few youth as well, so 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.200 it kind of cuts across a lot of different social 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.040 categories in a place like like Kenya, and most of 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:12.079 these countries primarily used still by men and relatively infrequently 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.440 by women generally speaking, that that does seem seem to 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.440 be the case. But but there is is consumption by 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.120 by women. And again the proportions are probably higher in 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.840 places like like Yemen, Um debouty, places like this, and 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.480 in somewhere somewhere like can you were mostly seen as 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.800 more a male a male pursuit mm hmm. And it 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.320 listen for those listeners of a poor sense of geography, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.280 it's useful to pull out a map at some point, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.920 but basically the Horn of Africa is that kind of 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:47.080 northeastern part of of Africa, sort of below Egypt and 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:51.320 Sudan and then sort of running down the eastern eastern 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.920 side of Africa and then just directly across from Yemen 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.760 and Saudi Arabia. And in fact, the youth even extends 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.319 into the neighboring regions of Saudi Arabia as well, as 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.640 I realized when I was doing the research um on this. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:06.480 But you know, if you think about I mean, Yemen's 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.160 got a population of thirty million, but if consumption there, 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.559 I mean that could be. What I mean, that's probably 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.440 where the highest percentage of the population lives. So it's 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.760 quite likely you have many, many millions of people. Uh. 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.040 You know in Yemen. Somalia has got sixteen million people 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.040 and so presumably got a few million there. Kenya's got 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:29.200 fifty three million population, um, so even a small percentage 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.360 there is gonna add up. In Ethiopia, you know, it's 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.439 the second most populous country in Africa after Nigeria, over 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.880 a hundred million people. So I'm guessing that must be 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.840 in the tens of millions, in addition to the emigrant 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.120 communities living in Europe and Australia and the UK, Canada 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.360 and elsewhere around the world. I mean, does that seem 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.680 like a reasonable estimate? That seems like a really really 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.000 reasonable way to to estimate it. And I think the 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.720 other sense of the scale is how much production has 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.640 boomed in places like Ethiopia and ken Near as well, 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.679 um even moving beyond kind of traditional communities that are 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:09.160 associated with its consumption and moving beyond places where it 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.880 was usually associated as an item of cultivation as well. Um. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.400 So I think from that you can certainly get a 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.000 sense of growing numbers of people chewing chewing cap because 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.120 you know, they wouldn't be the this real growth in 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.800 cultivation and trade if it if it weren't for increasing 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.960 demand alongside that, I see. And so the problem you 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:31.600 have that there's most of it then has growing in 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.840 Kenya and growing Ethiopia. Does that mean that the Yemen 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.360 and Somalia and some of the other places are mostly 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:43.400 importing the stuff that they choo? Somalia mostly imports, but 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.040 Yemen does it does produce a lot of its own 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:52.120 its own cat mmmm. Now one interesting thing about cut 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.560 is that the key ingredient, right the catherine know, you 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.880 know what the equivalent to cocaine and coca or th 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:03.440 ch in cannabis, it actually degrades very quickly once the 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.000 leaves are picked. Um, and I thought one of the 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.480 articles I think you're always called the need for speed. 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.520 So just talk about that and the implications of that. 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.640 That's right, well, very much does have a real real 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.320 implications for the way the trade is conducted in in cats, 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.520 and especially in terms of the transportation. So as you say, 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.160 Calvin owned is generally thought of as as degrading quite 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:31.560 rapidly into this other compounded cabine, which is a lot 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.560 less potent. So there is this idea that because of this, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.760 consumers really do want to get their cat as fresh 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.320 as possible to to consume and get the most effects 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.760 from the substance. I think that needs to be nuanced 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.360 a little bit because, UM, I think a lot a 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.320 lot of the reason why consumers prefer fresh cat is 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.080 it it just is much more pleasant to chew, you know, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.320 rather than cat that's dried a little bit as as well. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.680 And I think some research shows that it's UM this 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.280 compound it can be more or less stable in some 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.240 varieties of cats as well, So it's I think quite 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:12.080 quite interesting pharmacologically there. But there's certainly this idea that 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.440 there's this need for speed, you know that um, there 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.040 is this sense that people want want the freshest the 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.120 cat possible. UM. And the implications in places like ken 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.920 you really are very much about how fast that the 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:29.520 trade has to operate, because especially where where it's produced. 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:34.480 In Kenya is a region called mary Mery County which 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.320 is just northeast of the Mount Kenya, and this is 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.120 where most of the Kenyan crop of the cat is 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.640 is grown. And it's notorious if you're driving anywhere in 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.320 that region that you'll be you'll be driving along and 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.000 suddenly you'll be pushed off a road by some speeding 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.560 truck with sacks of cats. And this is quite a 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:58.480 common idea, quite a common trope about about the cat business, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.640 not just in Kenya, but but throughout you know, in 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.320 Ethiopia as well, these kind of trucks that speed on 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.960 by and basically that that is to try and meet schedules, 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.880 especially nowadays in Kenya with the trade that the export 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.720 of Kenyan cat to Somalia um so that that cat 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.560 has to reach the airports in Nairobi very very quickly, 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.239 you know, to them be able to be loaded up 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.320 onto planes to get to to Somalia. So any any 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:29.639 delays in that process really can lead to an unsellable, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.359 unsellable batch of cat. So let me ask you this thing, 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:35.639 because one of the news items I came across was 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.440 a major bust. It was in Seattle, and and and 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.240 the you know, customs authorities sees I think ten tons 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.960 of cart on a boat coming into the Seattle pork, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.680 you know, I mean sending it by boat. So how 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:51.959 does the stuff stay it all good? If it's been 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.760 on a boat coming from East Africa into Seattle. Well, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.720 it's a it's a very interesting development that that links 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.800 to what's happened in the UK as well where I'm 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.720 based um and the UK, as you probably are, ware 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.200 finally banned a cat in twenty fourteen, So the UK 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.000 was one of the last European countries to bring about 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.840 a ban on on cat. And what you did find 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.159 happened after the band So before the band, tons of 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:25.320 the fresh cat was coming from Kenya, mostly from Kenya, 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.280 some from Ethiopia as well, particularly daily coming into Heathrow 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.080 Airport to then feed you know, the wider wider demand 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.000 in the in the UK, so that this fresh cat 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.879 was was coming in in vast quantities. But what seems 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.160 to have happened since the ban is that there has 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.440 been a shift to a dried form of cat. It's 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.679 called grabber Um seems to be the name that a 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:49.600 lot of people that know it know it by in 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.719 the in the UK and elsewhere. And it's yeah, it's 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.760 quite interesting with these ideas about its pharmacology, about how 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:02.080 unstable cavin Own seems that seems to be. Yet consumers 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.760 still seem to say your consumers that I've spoken to 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.879 who have tried this dried cat they still seem to 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.719 suggest that it is actually quite quite potent um. And 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.520 to be honest, that the pharmacological research I don't think 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.520 has been done yet to to really see what's going 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:23.399 on there. We'll be talking more after we hear this ad. 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.880 So I came across a funny story, and this may 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.920 have been before this Graba version you're talking about came around, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.480 but it involves somebody getting busted some years ago in 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.840 the US. But the person who arrested him sort of 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.560 took their time in processing it, and and so the 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:55.760 person who got and busted with the cuts said he 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.320 wanted to have it chemically analyzed. And what had happened 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:03.600 was that the cathinone in the cot had already degraded 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.400 to the point that it was no longer testing positive 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.320 for that. And so if it has still been testing positive, 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.040 he would have been busted for, you know, selling or 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.960 importing a drug that was essentially a Schedule one drug 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.680 in the United States, you know, like like like heroin, 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.480 or or or psychedelics or or a range of other things. 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.000 But because the cathinone had degraded, it was now just 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.320 the the catheine, which is only a schedule for substance. 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.360 So therefore I think he almost I just got off 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.080 with a slap on the wrist um. So I wonder 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.280 if that's going to change now with this new grabba 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:39.920 you're talking about. Quite quite possibly, but it's but there 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.240 still is there still is demand for the for the 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.679 fresh cat, and it kind of links again to that 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:46.800 that need the speed sort of pulling it out a 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:48.879 little bit, a little bit more broadly as well with 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:54.800 even like the Drug Enforcement Administration offices and customs agents 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.159 in places like the US, you know, being told like 0:20:57.240 --> 0:20:59.840 if if you do get a seizure of cat, you 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:01.879 got to get it to the lab for testing US 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.200 as as quickly as possible. Otherwise, you know, the Yet, 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.840 like you say, Cavin owner, schedule one substance will degrade 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.320 into this cabin so it would be a lesser a 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.560 lesser charge as well, and not so not so good 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.560 for statistics, I think for the kind of customs agents 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.240 or the d as well in terms of you know, 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.840 if you can say, it's a really interesting story that 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.440 perhaps we can get onto in in a little little 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.800 bit about the criminalization of around the around the world, 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:34.040 and that the sched scheduling of it. Let's jump into 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:35.960 that now. I mean, because I think you know, for 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.240 people understand, I mean, I don't think it's part of 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.920 the U N conventions. I mean, you know, the UN 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:44.159 agencies having particularly friendly but it's not something that's been 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.000 criminalized since the early twentieth century. I mean, the criminalizations 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:50.520 that have happened around the world have been mostly in 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.200 the you know, the late twentieth century or early twenty 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.680 one century, right, that's right. So with with with cat 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.760 that they come hounds on it are actually scheduled, So 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.920 cabin on and cavine again, these are compounds that are 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.560 scheduled according to the conventions, but then there was a 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.160 lot of leeway given as to whether the plant itself 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.760 would then also be be regarded as kind of scheduled 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.280 because of the compounds. So different countries took different approaches 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:27.040 to that. So for example, the UK, for for many years, UM, 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.879 so the isolated cavinon or cavine would be restricted the compounds, 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:36.760 but cat itself in platform wasn't was not restricted um. 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.440 Whereas the the U S seems to have gone down 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:43.080 a different to a different rope because cavin Ow and 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.520 Calvine were themselves scheduled that the US we took the 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.600 measure of this assuming that UM. But because of that 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:57.359 that the the United Nations intended that UM that CAT itself, 0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:59.840 if it contained cabin one or if it contained cavine, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:04.040 should also be restricted on those on those grounds, but 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:08.280 there was no scheduling of CAT it itself UM. So 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.040 that this did did lead to a lot of quite 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:15.000 kind of quite interesting international situations in regard to the 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:19.200 legality of CAT. Mm hmmm. Well, so when we look 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.440 at the criminalizations that happened, right, it is these European 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:24.359 countries in the U S and other I guess they 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:28.880 begin criminalizing, but it actually goes back deeper than that, 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.280 right because when you look, I mean back to the 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:35.199 colonial era in Africa when the colonial overlords, you know, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.359