1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, before I 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: introduced today's guest, I just wanna bring you up to 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: date on a little actually disappointing news for me, which 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: is that, uh, this first version of Psychoactive will unfortunately 13 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: come to an end uh in late January when we 14 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: complete two seasons. And I have to say, I mean, basically, 15 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: what's happened is that the two key backers of Psychoactive, 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: which is I Heart and Darren Aronovski's company Protozoa, UM, 17 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, I have done it, have made really made 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: a wonderful investment in this uh and the audience has 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: been growing, the reviews have been fantastic, But unfortunately, and 20 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: I understand this and empathize with it, the the numbers 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: of listeners is not yet significant enough to justify a 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: continue investment. So we'll likely be taking a break at 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: the end of January and trying to figure out how 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: to bring Psychoactive back in some similar but slightly different 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: form with different backers. So at this point, what I'd 26 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: like to say to you is that if you've been 27 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: enjoying the podcast, UM, please poster your comments, put them 28 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: up on where you know, whether it's Apple or Spotify 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: or I Heart or Google, wherever you listen to your podcasts. 30 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: So I hope to keep Psychoactive going into the future. 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: I've really love doing it and I've got a wonderful 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: feedback UM, but part of its future will depend upon you, 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: the listeners, and how much you can you know, not 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: just send your positive feedback, but spread the word, encourage others, 35 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: Pierre's friends, students, teachers, whatever to listen so that we 36 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: can build this audience as big as possible. Okay, Well 37 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: that said, let me introduce today's guest. He's Professor Neil Carrier. 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: He's a professor of social anthropology at the University of 39 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: Bristol in the United Kingdom, and he is one of 40 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: the really leading experts in the world, both about drugs 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: in Africa and more specifically about a drug called cot 42 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: spelled k h A T or q a T. And 43 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm delighted to have him on Psychoactive today. So Neil, 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me and my listeners on 45 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: Psychoactive Pleasure. Ethan then, yeah, thank you very happening to me 46 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: me on the podcast. So now I realized that many 47 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: of you may never have heard of cod. I mean, 48 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: I've been fascinated by it because I've been studying drugs 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: for many decades, and it doesn't pop up much in 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: the news in the United States, and occasionally you read 51 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: about a bust by the d e A or local authorities, 52 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: typically directed at as Somali or Ethiopian immigrant communities living 53 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: in the United States, or maybe at a transshipment that 54 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: gets caught at a port um. But it's got a 55 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: long and rich history, and I wanted to discuss with 56 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Neil today, both not just about cod and its unusual history, 57 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: but also how thinking about cod in relationship to other drugs, 58 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: like like coffee, like tobacco, like coca like, opium like 59 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: even cava. I mean, how we think about these drugs 60 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: comparatively in terms of their indigenous uses, in terms of 61 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: their modernization, in terms of international markets and all of that. So, Neil, 62 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: why don't we just start off if you could explain 63 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: to our listeners what exactly is cat? What does it 64 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: come from, what does it do? How far back does 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: it does its history? Go, start us off with it 66 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: with the answers to those questions. Sure, thank you, Ethan. Yes, well, 67 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: basically cat comes from either a shrub or a tree. 68 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: Cat comes from the kata julius plant, which which can 69 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: grow is quite a small shrub or can grow into 70 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: something quite a bit a bit larger into a full 71 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: blown tree, depending on on how it's how it is 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: produced and cultivated. And basically it is the the the 73 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: product that is sold of the young stems and leaves 74 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: that shoot up from the main branches of the of 75 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: the shrub of of the tree. And these have have 76 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: stimulating properties mainly due to some compounds that resemble amphetamine 77 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: in the in how they how they work on the 78 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: on the central nervous system. Those compounds are cathinone and 79 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: and catheine those are the two key elements, and cathinone 80 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: is basically a sort of cousin of the amphetamine was 81 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: somewhat similar effects. That's right, and it's quite interesting, I 82 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: think pharmacologically there has been quite a quite a bit 83 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: of work done on all the different types of compounds. So, 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: as you know, with a lot of these plants, including 85 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: cannabis and the like, people tend to focus on particular 86 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: compounds TH, HC or or what have you. And it's 87 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: quite similar with cat as well. So a lot of 88 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 1: the focus pharmacologically is on this substance calvin one, but 89 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: there are a lot of other compounds within within cat 90 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: that you know have been researched in immoral or less detail. 91 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: But basically it is these these leaves and stems are 92 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: consumed by by chewing um, and people build up a 93 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: wad of cat in their in their cheeks and chew 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: often often for quite a few hours at least for 95 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: for a time, constantly building up this ward in the 96 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: in the cheek, so maybe a little bit like like 97 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: chewing tobacco or chewing coca. So this one is constantly 98 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: replenished and this is what gives releases the stimulating properties 99 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: of the of the substance m so similar in the 100 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: same way that's say indigenous people's oblivia Peru, Columbia elsewhere, 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: will chew the coca leaf and and slowly a slow 102 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: drip of cocaine gets released, or in some cases people 103 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 1: will chew tobacco and the nicotine gets released. Similarly, people 104 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: will be chewing the cart and the catino and eventually 105 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: the cassine will get released, and that's what provides the 106 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: pleasant feeling I guess of of engaging in this. That's right, 107 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: and I think it's key like. The way it's consumed 108 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: is quite a key aspect of cat like like with 109 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: coca and chewing coca, because it is actually put it 110 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: a more measured release rather than taking a pure compound 111 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: in in one go, it's kind of released over the 112 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: hours of the of the chewing session, which is a 113 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: more gentle effect. Really then then would be say taking 114 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: the isolated cabin on. A friend of mine actually had 115 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: a really really nice way of explaining the or describing 116 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: the effects of cat as being something that if you 117 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: if you sit down in an armchair and you're not 118 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: quite comfortable, but then suddenly you just shift your body 119 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: and you find that place where you know your body 120 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: is completely comfortable. Cat seems to be a little bit 121 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: like that. It is quite a quite a subtle effect, 122 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, the way it makes you makes you feel 123 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,559 Speaker 1: but it but you know, it is quite a quite 124 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: a pleasant substance. And the history, I mean, does this 125 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: go back millennia? Does it go back a thousand years? 126 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: Does it have a history somewhere at the coffee or 127 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: to old bi Um or what would you compare it to? 128 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: And well, it it does go back a long time. 129 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: I think in records it's probably about them one millennium 130 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: where we have records, especially in the region of Ethiopia 131 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: and Yemen. There's a lot of early early records that 132 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: text your records from that kind of region. Um. And 133 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: it's it's similar to coffee actually, so probably about the 134 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: about a similar timeline to two coffee and associated I 135 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: mean with coffee is associated. You know. Part of it 136 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: is both the frisky goat story of realizing that this 137 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: thing could wake up in the morning and also then 138 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: beginning to use in order to help staying awake for 139 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: the early morning prayers in in Islam. Um is there 140 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: something similar? I mean, is is more associated with Muslims 141 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: than with Christians or or our Animist or other types 142 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: of religions. Oh, it very much is um And sometimes 143 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: there's an explanation given that for Muslim people without with 144 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: restrictions on alcohol, that something like a cat can kind 145 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: of fulfill that social social role um uh that alcohol 146 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: does the man for many of the society. So there 147 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: is that kind of argument. But it it does link 148 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: with especially um uh forms of Islam again kind of 149 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: more in the Ethiopian region, if there are links with 150 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: all night prayer session in Sufi Islam, and and in 151 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: northern Kenya, where I've done quite a bit of work, 152 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: you do get it's it's consumption associated with things like 153 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: spirit possession sessions, which do tend to involve kind of 154 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: all night sessions. So you know something there is like 155 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: a functional aspect to it, you know, something that's quite 156 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: useful for keeping people going in these these kind of 157 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: religious religious settings. But it's not it's not psychedelic in 158 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: a sense of people using a peyote or using ebogo 159 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: or things like that. Right, people aren't hall loosening the 160 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: influence of this. They're more getting into a slightly modified 161 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: state of consciousness. That's right. I mean, it's it's not 162 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: a direct psychedelic in that that way. I think, like 163 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: a lot of these things, and the way contexts plays 164 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: a role on how the effects have felt though, um, 165 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, perhaps in those kind of consumption contexts, um 166 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: it might have a you know, be able to generate 167 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: some sorts of altered aches, you know, along with the 168 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: kind of music that would be going on, the drumming, 169 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: this kind of thing. So context can maybe give it 170 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 1: a slight effect like that, But generally no, it's it 171 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: is a fairly gentle form of amphetamin. Now, Neil, if 172 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: we look in at the current time, I mean, if 173 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: you look in the countries in the Horn of Africa 174 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: as well as in the emigrant communities throughout the world, Um, 175 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: I mean, how many people are probably chewing cut on 176 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: any one day? I mean today are there are there 177 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: probably ten million or five million or twenty five million 178 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: people in the world chewing cut? And is it? Is 179 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: it over is it overwhelmingly? And Yemen and then in 180 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: Somali and ken you how does it break out to 181 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: be honest that there really isn't the the evidence yet 182 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: to state with precision, I think how many how many 183 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: people would be consuming over any one day, but it's 184 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: certainly consumed over a vast area. So all the way 185 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: from Yemen like you like you say, all the way 186 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: actually down to the Eastern Cape in the South Africa, 187 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: Southern Africa, you do get cat cat growing wild all 188 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: the way down that region. So even in the Eastern 189 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: Cape there's people who do consume it. And it's also 190 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: imported into South Africa from places like like Kenya and 191 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: Madagascar as well. Actually as A is a place principally 192 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: with the influence of Yemenis who settled in northern Madagascar 193 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: centuries ago. But Northern Madagascar as well as another place 194 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: where we're quite a bit of cats is consumed um. 195 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: But the other sections of society where it's very very 196 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: very popular. It's become very popular principally again for this 197 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: funk more functional used by people like truck drivers, people 198 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: like night watchman either even students studying for for exams. 199 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: And culturally as well, it's become quite associated in places 200 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: like Kenny with with quite a youth culture, so they 201 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: very popular amongst them a few youth as well, so 202 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: it kind of cuts across a lot of different social 203 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: categories in a place like like Kenya, and most of 204 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: these countries primarily used still by men and relatively infrequently 205 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: by women generally speaking, that that does seem seem to 206 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: be the case. But but there is is consumption by 207 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: by women. And again the proportions are probably higher in 208 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: places like like Yemen, Um debouty, places like this, and 209 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: in somewhere somewhere like can you were mostly seen as 210 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: more a male a male pursuit mm hmm. And it 211 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: listen for those listeners of a poor sense of geography, 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: it's useful to pull out a map at some point, 213 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: but basically the Horn of Africa is that kind of 214 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: northeastern part of of Africa, sort of below Egypt and 215 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: Sudan and then sort of running down the eastern eastern 216 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: side of Africa and then just directly across from Yemen 217 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: and Saudi Arabia. And in fact, the youth even extends 218 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: into the neighboring regions of Saudi Arabia as well, as 219 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: I realized when I was doing the research um on this. 220 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: But you know, if you think about I mean, Yemen's 221 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: got a population of thirty million, but if consumption there, 222 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: I mean that could be. What I mean, that's probably 223 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: where the highest percentage of the population lives. So it's 224 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: quite likely you have many, many millions of people. Uh. 225 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: You know in Yemen. Somalia has got sixteen million people 226 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: and so presumably got a few million there. Kenya's got 227 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: fifty three million population, um, so even a small percentage 228 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: there is gonna add up. In Ethiopia, you know, it's 229 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: the second most populous country in Africa after Nigeria, over 230 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: a hundred million people. So I'm guessing that must be 231 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: in the tens of millions, in addition to the emigrant 232 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: communities living in Europe and Australia and the UK, Canada 233 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: and elsewhere around the world. I mean, does that seem 234 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: like a reasonable estimate? That seems like a really really 235 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: reasonable way to to estimate it. And I think the 236 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: other sense of the scale is how much production has 237 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: boomed in places like Ethiopia and ken Near as well, 238 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: um even moving beyond kind of traditional communities that are 239 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: associated with its consumption and moving beyond places where it 240 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: was usually associated as an item of cultivation as well. Um. 241 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: So I think from that you can certainly get a 242 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: sense of growing numbers of people chewing chewing cap because 243 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, they wouldn't be the this real growth in 244 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: cultivation and trade if it if it weren't for increasing 245 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: demand alongside that, I see. And so the problem you 246 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: have that there's most of it then has growing in 247 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: Kenya and growing Ethiopia. Does that mean that the Yemen 248 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: and Somalia and some of the other places are mostly 249 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: importing the stuff that they choo? Somalia mostly imports, but 250 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: Yemen does it does produce a lot of its own 251 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: its own cat mmmm. Now one interesting thing about cut 252 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: is that the key ingredient, right the catherine know, you 253 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: know what the equivalent to cocaine and coca or th 254 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: ch in cannabis, it actually degrades very quickly once the 255 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: leaves are picked. Um, and I thought one of the 256 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: articles I think you're always called the need for speed. 257 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: So just talk about that and the implications of that. 258 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: That's right, well, very much does have a real real 259 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: implications for the way the trade is conducted in in cats, 260 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: and especially in terms of the transportation. So as you say, 261 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: Calvin owned is generally thought of as as degrading quite 262 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: rapidly into this other compounded cabine, which is a lot 263 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: less potent. So there is this idea that because of this, 264 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: consumers really do want to get their cat as fresh 265 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: as possible to to consume and get the most effects 266 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: from the substance. I think that needs to be nuanced 267 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: a little bit because, UM, I think a lot a 268 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: lot of the reason why consumers prefer fresh cat is 269 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: it it just is much more pleasant to chew, you know, 270 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: rather than cat that's dried a little bit as as well. 271 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: And I think some research shows that it's UM this 272 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: compound it can be more or less stable in some 273 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: varieties of cats as well, So it's I think quite 274 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: quite interesting pharmacologically there. But there's certainly this idea that 275 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: there's this need for speed, you know that um, there 276 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: is this sense that people want want the freshest the 277 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: cat possible. UM. And the implications in places like ken 278 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: you really are very much about how fast that the 279 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: trade has to operate, because especially where where it's produced. 280 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: In Kenya is a region called mary Mery County which 281 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: is just northeast of the Mount Kenya, and this is 282 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: where most of the Kenyan crop of the cat is 283 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: is grown. And it's notorious if you're driving anywhere in 284 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: that region that you'll be you'll be driving along and 285 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: suddenly you'll be pushed off a road by some speeding 286 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: truck with sacks of cats. And this is quite a 287 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: common idea, quite a common trope about about the cat business, 288 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: not just in Kenya, but but throughout you know, in 289 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: Ethiopia as well, these kind of trucks that speed on 290 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: by and basically that that is to try and meet schedules, 291 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: especially nowadays in Kenya with the trade that the export 292 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: of Kenyan cat to Somalia um so that that cat 293 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: has to reach the airports in Nairobi very very quickly, 294 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,239 Speaker 1: you know, to them be able to be loaded up 295 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: onto planes to get to to Somalia. So any any 296 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: delays in that process really can lead to an unsellable, 297 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: unsellable batch of cat. So let me ask you this thing, 298 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: because one of the news items I came across was 299 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: a major bust. It was in Seattle, and and and 300 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: the you know, customs authorities sees I think ten tons 301 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: of cart on a boat coming into the Seattle pork, 302 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, I mean sending it by boat. So how 303 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: does the stuff stay it all good? If it's been 304 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: on a boat coming from East Africa into Seattle. Well, 305 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: it's a it's a very interesting development that that links 306 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: to what's happened in the UK as well where I'm 307 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: based um and the UK, as you probably are, ware 308 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: finally banned a cat in twenty fourteen, So the UK 309 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: was one of the last European countries to bring about 310 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: a ban on on cat. And what you did find 311 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: happened after the band So before the band, tons of 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: the fresh cat was coming from Kenya, mostly from Kenya, 313 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: some from Ethiopia as well, particularly daily coming into Heathrow 314 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: Airport to then feed you know, the wider wider demand 315 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: in the in the UK, so that this fresh cat 316 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: was was coming in in vast quantities. But what seems 317 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: to have happened since the ban is that there has 318 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: been a shift to a dried form of cat. It's 319 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: called grabber Um seems to be the name that a 320 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: lot of people that know it know it by in 321 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,719 Speaker 1: the in the UK and elsewhere. And it's yeah, it's 322 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: quite interesting with these ideas about its pharmacology, about how 323 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: unstable cavin Own seems that seems to be. Yet consumers 324 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: still seem to say your consumers that I've spoken to 325 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: who have tried this dried cat they still seem to 326 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 1: suggest that it is actually quite quite potent um. And 327 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: to be honest, that the pharmacological research I don't think 328 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: has been done yet to to really see what's going 329 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: on there. We'll be talking more after we hear this ad. 330 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: So I came across a funny story, and this may 331 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: have been before this Graba version you're talking about came around, 332 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: but it involves somebody getting busted some years ago in 333 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: the US. But the person who arrested him sort of 334 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: took their time in processing it, and and so the 335 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: person who got and busted with the cuts said he 336 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: wanted to have it chemically analyzed. And what had happened 337 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: was that the cathinone in the cot had already degraded 338 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: to the point that it was no longer testing positive 339 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: for that. And so if it has still been testing positive, 340 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: he would have been busted for, you know, selling or 341 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: importing a drug that was essentially a Schedule one drug 342 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: in the United States, you know, like like like heroin, 343 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: or or or psychedelics or or a range of other things. 344 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: But because the cathinone had degraded, it was now just 345 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: the the catheine, which is only a schedule for substance. 346 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: So therefore I think he almost I just got off 347 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: with a slap on the wrist um. So I wonder 348 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: if that's going to change now with this new grabba 349 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about. Quite quite possibly, but it's but there 350 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: still is there still is demand for the for the 351 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: fresh cat, and it kind of links again to that 352 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: that need the speed sort of pulling it out a 353 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: little bit, a little bit more broadly as well with 354 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: even like the Drug Enforcement Administration offices and customs agents 355 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: in places like the US, you know, being told like 356 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: if if you do get a seizure of cat, you 357 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: got to get it to the lab for testing US 358 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: as as quickly as possible. Otherwise, you know, the Yet, 359 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: like you say, Cavin owner, schedule one substance will degrade 360 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: into this cabin so it would be a lesser a 361 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: lesser charge as well, and not so not so good 362 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: for statistics, I think for the kind of customs agents 363 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: or the d as well in terms of you know, 364 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: if you can say, it's a really interesting story that 365 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: perhaps we can get onto in in a little little 366 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: bit about the criminalization of around the around the world, 367 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: and that the sched scheduling of it. Let's jump into 368 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: that now. I mean, because I think you know, for 369 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: people understand, I mean, I don't think it's part of 370 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: the U N conventions. I mean, you know, the UN 371 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: agencies having particularly friendly but it's not something that's been 372 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: criminalized since the early twentieth century. I mean, the criminalizations 373 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: that have happened around the world have been mostly in 374 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: the you know, the late twentieth century or early twenty 375 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: one century, right, that's right. So with with with cat 376 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: that they come hounds on it are actually scheduled, So 377 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: cabin on and cavine again, these are compounds that are 378 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: scheduled according to the conventions, but then there was a 379 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: lot of leeway given as to whether the plant itself 380 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: would then also be be regarded as kind of scheduled 381 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: because of the compounds. So different countries took different approaches 382 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: to that. So for example, the UK, for for many years, UM, 383 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: so the isolated cavinon or cavine would be restricted the compounds, 384 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: but cat itself in platform wasn't was not restricted um. 385 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: Whereas the the U S seems to have gone down 386 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: a different to a different rope because cavin Ow and 387 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: Calvine were themselves scheduled that the US we took the 388 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: measure of this assuming that UM. But because of that 389 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: that the the United Nations intended that UM that CAT itself, 390 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: if it contained cabin one or if it contained cavine, 391 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: should also be restricted on those on those grounds, but 392 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: there was no scheduling of CAT it itself UM. So 393 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: that this did did lead to a lot of quite 394 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: kind of quite interesting international situations in regard to the 395 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: legality of CAT. Mm hmmm. Well, so when we look 396 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: at the criminalizations that happened, right, it is these European 397 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: countries in the U S and other I guess they 398 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: begin criminalizing, but it actually goes back deeper than that, 399 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: right because when you look, I mean back to the 400 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: colonial era in Africa when the colonial overlords, you know, 401 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: we're concerned and we'd try to ban it um. And 402 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: it also goes This is also an interesting case where 403 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: this justn't wasn't just Western elites banning something that they 404 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: feared coming from abroad. A lot of the impetus in 405 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: many places, both in the region as well as in 406 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: Europe and maybe Canada other places, seemed to be coming 407 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: from people within the Somali community or from some of 408 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: the emigrant communities. There's they were sort of playing out 409 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: is I if I understand what I've been reading from 410 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: you and others playing out, you know, this their own 411 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: debate over how to look at cat. That's right, it's um. 412 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: And I think the terms that come out to a 413 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: lot in the way people write about cat, terms like ambivalence, 414 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,239 Speaker 1: terms like ambiguity, because there does tend to be so 415 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: much ambivalence within particular communities about the consumption of cat. 416 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: But certainly lots and lots of debates within within Islam 417 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: about whether whether cat is forbidden or permitted, whether it 418 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: should be seen as forbidden as um as haram, or 419 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: whether it could be seen as as hellal. So these debates, 420 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: there's actually quite a quite a long tradition in especially 421 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: in Yemen, of debates around around cat, and that the 422 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: kind of the way Muslim scholars might might view it, 423 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: whether as permitted or not. You know, some seeing it 424 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: as kind of you know, so you can consume it 425 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: as long as it's not harming your a day to 426 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: day life or your link to your community, whereas others 427 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: much more restrictive on its on its consumption and then yeah, 428 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: kind of a lot of concern especially often quite gendered 429 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: forms of the concerns as well about the the idea 430 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: of cat is this very male pastime um where maybe 431 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: taking the men away for long periods from the domestic 432 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: sphere and contributing to the home and the the idea 433 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: is spending too much money on this substance as well, Yeah, 434 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 1: because it reminds me a bit because we've recently did 435 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: an episode about the history of alcohol prohibition in the 436 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: US and there that was very much a women's led 437 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: movement as well. To bring on you who led the 438 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: temperance movement and then alcohol prohibition in the US. It 439 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: was the same concerns around men spending their money on 440 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: booze and not taking care of their families and claimed 441 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: you know, associations with violence and reckless behavior in all this, 442 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: and I think you would have some of the same 443 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: debates around opion in many traditional opium using communities, with 444 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, with the with the female heads of household 445 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: upset with with what their husbands were doing and the 446 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: waste of money going on. And then of course I 447 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: think there's awten sometimes the class based conflict right with 448 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: the elites kind of looking down their nose at the 449 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: more working class folks, and obviously they concern around young 450 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: people getting into it. I mean, it seems like some 451 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: of those debates that I read about in your writings, 452 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, are around around the around the debates around 453 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: what to do about cut are very similar to ones 454 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: who've seen elsewhere on the world, around other substances, very 455 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: much so, a lot of a lot of parallels and 456 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: throughout those as as well. Within Keny. One thing I 457 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: became particularly fascinated by was all the different varieties of 458 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: cats that are sold um and you you do get 459 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: cat being sold in Kenneth for all sorts of pockets. 460 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: You know, you get the very expensive varieties of cats 461 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: that come from the the oldest frees, kind of kind 462 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: of light with vineyards, you know, like the best quality 463 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: grapes coming from the oldest fines. And it's a very 464 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: very similar discourse about the best quality cat coming from 465 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: the oldest trees. And this sort of cat can really 466 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: fetch quite a quite a large amount of money. But 467 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: then then you do get to lesser varieties as well, 468 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, which are the equivalent of the maybe like 469 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: the sweepings of tea from the factory floor that might 470 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: be sold as you know, kind of low quality, low 471 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: quality tea. So it was quite interesting always in Keny 472 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: of those divisions around around class. So a lot of 473 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: the Kenyan middle classes would often conflate all CAT consumers 474 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: as perhaps being quite quite lonely people, you know, people 475 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: working on the buses or in public transport or these 476 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: kind of things, where whereas for those in the know, 477 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, CAT it does straddle a lot of different 478 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: different class groups as well. So for those with inside 479 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: and knowledge about all these different types of varieties, you know, 480 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: you can see people who are buying a particular variety 481 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: that is very very expensive compared to you know, someone 482 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: who might just be buying the cheapest quality as well. 483 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: CAT is not really criminalized in Europe u as much 484 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: of the world until the eighties. And then as I 485 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: understand that what happens is, you know, Somalia is falling 486 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: apart into a horrific civil war, Somalians are emigrating around 487 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: the world, including to throughout Europe, the US. Uh, they're 488 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: bringing the cod tradition with them, and you know, the 489 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: Western governments don't really know how to respond at first, 490 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: but My understand is that part of what drives many 491 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: of them in Scandinavia, the UK, probably some other countries 492 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: is that you have Somalian Somali emigres refugees themselves pushing 493 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: for the prohibition in these European and other Western countries, 494 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: while others are saying, what are you doing? This is 495 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: our indigenous product, this is something that's native to you know, 496 00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: our cultures. That's right, And it was quite quite a 497 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: pronounced the aspect of all the debates in the UK 498 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: leading up to the ban in um and it is 499 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: very very interesting actually how it does link to those 500 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: kind of diaspora, those kind of emigrade dynamics as well. 501 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: One kind of critical aspect of all this is a 502 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: sense among some Somalis that that cat wasn't really an 503 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: issue back in the in the home regions, but it's 504 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: when it was displaced into the diaspora, the emigrade kind 505 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: of context that it became a became a problem. Partly 506 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: the argument that you know, there were more kind of 507 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: cultural restraints around consumption in the in the home areas 508 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: compared to the diaspora context, the emigrade context, but also 509 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: one one kind of quite interesting dynamic is the real 510 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: sense of strong morality that a lot of Somalis have 511 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: in the emigrade context that if if you do get 512 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: the um, if you you do get the chance to 513 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: live in somewhere like London or or or Minneapolis, are 514 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: these kind of places that you should keep on supporting 515 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: families back in the in the home regions. So there's 516 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: a lot of remittances that are that are sent back 517 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: from Somali's in the emigrade context, back to back to Somalia, 518 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: to Somali's in Kenya and elsewhere. And I think with 519 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: cat there's there's quite a strong morality about it that, 520 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, if you get the chance to be in 521 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: the in the somewhere like London, you know a place 522 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: where you could could perhaps earn money, some of which 523 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: could go back to supporting family, but instead you kind 524 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: of waste it chewing chewing cat in in London or wherever. 525 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: There was kind of a very very strong sort of 526 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: ethical pushback against that, But all of that debate had 527 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: its roots in similar debates going on in Yemen and 528 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: in Kenya and Ethel being elsewhere, right, because even there 529 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: you had issues about all this is not good and 530 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: the men are just hanging around and they're spending money 531 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: on carts instead of food and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Right, 532 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: I mean it wasn't It wasn't like these debates suddenly 533 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: emerged when people got to go to Europe or to 534 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: the US. It's just that they became i think, probably 535 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: more exaggerated because they were dealing with a new cultural 536 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: context and all the more worried about their kids and 537 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: about employment. Oh definitely, it's something that became intensified. Like 538 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: you say, these debates have been going on for a 539 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: long time, and debates not necessarily about the individual consumer 540 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: as well, but about you know, kind of the idea 541 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: of whole whole countries as well, you know, very economistic 542 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: kind of way of looking at life, like you know, 543 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: wasting working hours by cheering this substance or so you 544 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: often the way places like Jibouti and the Yemen might 545 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: be written about, like as if a whole society was 546 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: kind of addicted to this substance and not you know, 547 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: the countries weren't developing as as well as they might. 548 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: You know, if only people stopped touring cat then you know, 549 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: development would come in a more concrete, concrete kind of form. 550 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: And the same thing was true in the colonial era, 551 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: right where the colonial overseers try to ban it at 552 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: certain different certain times, or ban it for certain groups 553 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: and night others, or trying to license it or where 554 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: all this kind of thing. That's right, and um, some 555 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: of my research it's one more more historical kind of 556 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 1: archival research. I've done what was looking at again at 557 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: the Kenyan context, which is the one I'm still most 558 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: most familiar with. But it was that, yeah, very very 559 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: interesting colonial story about the attempts to to prohibit this 560 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: this substance. And again you can you can see from 561 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: quite early on in the archives, you know, going back 562 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: to around the nine twenties and thirties, when the British 563 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: authorities in Kenya, the British colonial authorities suddenly realized how 564 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: much cat was being consumed, how much was being grown, 565 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: and how much was being traded because it suddenly came 566 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: into their into their site as you know, a substance 567 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: of interest. They hadn't really trapped it. And then all 568 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: of a sudden they realized that this substance from places 569 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: like the Mayory region of Kenya, it was traveling quite 570 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: a quite large distances and being sold you know as 571 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: far aways Mombassador and places like this, and there were 572 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: all these debates, so again this idea of kind of 573 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: ambivalence towards it and the ambiguities around it. So look, 574 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: quite a few British officials didn't really see it being 575 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: too problematic or you know, they were kind of comparing 576 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: it to things like tobacco and in moderation it's it's 577 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: not too bad a thing. But certain colonial officers really 578 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: got to be in their bonnets, really became quite involved 579 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: in um in wanting to prohibit the substance, especially for 580 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: the certain parts of Kenya, like northern Kenya. There's a 581 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: lot of concern that it's consumption there was growing, and 582 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: it really was affecting a region that was quite a 583 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: sensitive region as as well politically, because it was a 584 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: buffer zone between Kenya and Ethiopia and the Italian Somali 585 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: land as it as it then was. Yeah, I gotta 586 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: kick out of At one point you mentioned that, you know, 587 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: the British didn't want to kind of get too tough 588 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: on the Merrow Kenyan Is because they respected them and 589 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: it was dynamic account. I was dynic by the culture. 590 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: But with respect to the Somali's who were living in 591 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: Kenya and they if they wanted to get their kind 592 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: at one point they had a licensing scheme where they 593 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: had a register as addicts in order to get access 594 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: to KA. I mean, not unlike you had with some 595 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: of the opium control systems in parts of Southeast and 596 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: southwast Asia UM at a roughly similar period in time, 597 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: which is kind of humiliating to say, well, if you're 598 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: Somali origin, you've got a register an addict. If you're 599 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: not Somali origin, then we're just going to tolerat it. 600 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: And you know, either have it be legal or look 601 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: the other way. That's right. And it was quite racialized, 602 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: the idea that these sort of pastoralist people of northern Kenya, 603 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: like Somali's um that consumption by them was something quite problematic, 604 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: whereas for these agricultural people like the Marrow, you know, 605 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: it wasn't so seen as so lomatic. So it was 606 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: quite interesting how it how it became quite racialize, these 607 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: kind of concerns about it by the by the British, 608 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: but yes, it did. It did lead to incredible situations 609 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: where you did have people to to go to go 610 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: and get their supply of cat. At one point they 611 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: would go and register with the district commissioners office to 612 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 1: to go and get their their supply, and I think 613 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: quite a few people did did take on the the 614 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: kind of the label of being an addict because then 615 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: you did get a supply of cat given to you 616 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: by the British district officers as well. So at this 617 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: point now it's fully legal right in Ethiopia, in Yemen, 618 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: in Kenya, in Djibouti, that's right, yes, And is it 619 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: fully legal anywhere else in different countries it's you can 620 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: get quite a lot of legal ambiguities around it. So 621 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: in some where like Uganda where there is quite a 622 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: quite a growing consumption of the cat and cultivation of 623 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: cats as well, but I think district different districts in 624 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: Uganda do have like local kind of local laws kind 625 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: of restricting restricting cats as well. And in some places 626 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: it's never quite clear. You know, some some like for 627 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: example Madagascar, it's often written about as being illegal, but 628 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: then also seems to be written about as being legal, 629 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: and it's it can be quite hard to cut through 630 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: the haze of this because one one thing with CAT 631 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: is it does get so many so much legal ambiguity 632 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: built up around it. So even in somewhere like Kenya, 633 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: whereas is perfectly perfectly legal, but quite a lot of 634 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: people see it as, you know, something to be regarded 635 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 1: with suspicion and something quite quite dubious in many ways. 636 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: So it does still takes arm kind of an air 637 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: of being something that even if it can be sold openly, 638 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,959 Speaker 1: but it's there's something not quite not quite right there. 639 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: There's the other thing it became conflated with in the 640 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: post n era, with the war on terrorism as well. 641 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: But there was quite a bit to push in the 642 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: in the US, especially that CAT CAT trading routes should 643 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: be should be properly pleased, because there's this idea that 644 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: the likes of al Qaedo and so forth Islamic militant 645 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: groups in in Somalia were a lot of their funding 646 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: was coming from CAT. This was the idea anyway, Well, 647 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: there was probably some truth to it, right, I mean, 648 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: it makes it makes sense that groups that are involved 649 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: in transnational criminality are looking to raise money any which 650 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: way they can, that they're going to be getting some 651 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: of their revenue from illicit drug sales. I mean, it's 652 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 1: true have been true of most guerrilla movements, and not most, 653 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: but many guerrilla movements. And I think most you know, 654 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: terrorist organizations that you know, they have a constant need 655 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: for capital and there are constantly involved in you know, 656 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: trying to you know, get guns from one place and 657 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: then use the same planes to shift back drugs on 658 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: the other. I think about the histories by Alfred J. 659 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: McCoy about the politics that Heroin and Southeast Asia. He 660 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: tracked where you know, basically traces all kind of this history. 661 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: So it would make sense that some of that was 662 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: going on, although no doubt it was being exaggerated in 663 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: the Western media. Yes, what what you would find? I mean, certainly, 664 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: I think al Qaeda had no as far as I'm aware, 665 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: any no links to it to CAT. But you certainly 666 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: do find like groups like al Shabab kind of militia group, 667 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: militant group in control of still quite large swaves of Somalia. 668 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: Um that because CAT is still sold if they sometimes 669 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: do try and ban it, because these kind of militant 670 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: Islam groups like al Shabab, you know, often do do 671 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: see CAT is something you know, that should be forbidden. 672 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: So sometimes there are attempts to ban it, but mostly 673 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, they do kind of tolerate it. And it 674 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: is the case that for for a lot of these groups, 675 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: because cat is being sold in the in the area, 676 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: it is something that they tax and so quite a 677 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: bit of revenue is made for them. But then everything 678 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: is acts, you know, like all commodities like sugar and charcoal, um, 679 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: so anything going through these kind of regions. But I 680 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: think quite a bit of that concern, especially thinks I 681 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 1: read in the US coming out to the US maybe 682 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: around two thousand and four, two thousand and five, that 683 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 1: kind of era, a lot of the concerns about cat 684 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: and funding terrorism really did seem to be based on 685 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: very very little evidence. It was more more the case 686 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: like you know, cat is being sold all over the world. 687 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: You know, it's a popular, popular commodity. It's it seems 688 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: to be a drug, and it's mostly associated with Muslims. 689 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: We don't know where the money is going from CAT. 690 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: Therefore there's a high likelihood it's funding al Qaeda. And 691 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: it seems some quite tenuous logic was going on in 692 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: in in in this kind of exaggeration, so people just 693 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: weeding it into the kind of narco terrorism war on 694 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: drugs and narrative that they would cocaine and actually never 695 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: really got attached to marijuana very much. Now in terms 696 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: of the enforcement in the emigrant communities, I don't know 697 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: if it's in your writings or in others where you know, 698 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: I was reading that in place like Sciandinavia, it actually 699 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: got pretty tough. I mean they weren't just doing a 700 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: blind eye of this stuff. They were using informants and 701 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: random stops and arrests. I mean, there actually are some 702 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: significant numbers of people, you know, Somalians others who are 703 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: been getting arrested and going to jail at least I said, 704 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: is that right or is it really still just slap 705 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: on the wrist type thing. It's very very much does 706 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: depend on the on the contextum So it's it's very 707 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: interesting to look at at somewhere like the UK and 708 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: in relation to to cat Well, like I said, it 709 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: was finally banned in in twenty four teen, but the band, 710 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: the way it's it's been enforced, it's they kind of 711 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: have a free strike system, um where you know, first 712 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: off you just get a warning, next time, maybe a fine, 713 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: and then then finally there might be more proceedings kind 714 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: of brought to brought against you. I kind of I 715 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: think it would be interesting to do some research on 716 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 1: on how many people are actually getting busted with with 717 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 1: CAT But my sense anyways, but it's very very low 718 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: down any priorities for the police forces, you know, who's 719 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: funding is. UM is generally quite quite marginal at the 720 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: at the best of time. But at the same time, 721 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: you had media um you know, I mean I saw 722 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: claim across one thing, like back in two thousand and four, 723 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: a relatively respected newspaper like The Guardian had ran a 724 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: piece with the headline about Cott quote this has the 725 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: same effect as ecstasy and cocaine and it's legal. Or 726 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: before you know I started this interview, I pulled up 727 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: the drug fact sheet from the d e a's website 728 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: and they asked the question, what's this effect on the mind? 729 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: Cott It says can induce manic behavior with grandiose delusions, paranoia, nightmares, hallucinations, 730 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 1: and hyperactivity. Chronic catpories can result in violence and suicidal depression. 731 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: And that's a d A fact sheet that's up there today, right, 732 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: So you see this kind of you know, natural desire 733 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: to kind of make cats sound as if it's indistinguishable 734 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: from the purified form of cathine on or even worse right, 735 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: and just fit it in with the same kind of 736 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: rhetoric if they use respect to a bunch of other 737 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: drugs which have oftentimes much more powerful impact on human behavior. 738 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: That's right. I think this kind of conflation goes on, 739 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: goes on so much with it with all drugs obviously. 740 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: But we talked earlier about the labeling of cat as 741 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: a as a drug and people kind of pushing back. 742 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: So for example, the Mary who produced a lot of 743 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: the cats holding kenure and and and beyond, a lot 744 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: of the cats sold around the world, but they very 745 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: much do push back against that idea of cat as 746 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: a drug like you know, cocaine or over like, because 747 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: you know, they're aware of how how that that that 748 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: kind of idea is something that has restricted the trade 749 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: and led to these these kind of prohibitions and and 750 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: and so forth. There's an interesting thing that when you 751 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: look at substance suits that are coming. You know, if 752 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: you look at Cradam coming for kryptom as it's called 753 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia coming into the West and it's being 754 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: used you know, oftentimes by you know, not emigrated communities, 755 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: but by people you know, you know, a whole variety 756 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: of people living you know, you know, have long you know, 757 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: go back multigeneration from multigenerations in the United States and 758 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: other consuming countries. If you look at kava coming from 759 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: South Pacific, once again, it's not just among South Pacific emigrads. 760 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: Um uh. And I think that's true probably of a 761 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: whole number of other sort of plant based psychoactive substances. 762 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: But with COD, I don't see anything about it being 763 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: used outside the emigrade communities. I don't hear anything about 764 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, you know, white people or black people, or 765 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, or Hispanic people. The United States taken this up. 766 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: It just seems to be so powerfully connected to the 767 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: cultural tradition that it's not breaking out. But is there 768 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,919 Speaker 1: any evidence that that that COD is being used out 769 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: side the immigrant communities. Very very little, I think. But 770 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: maybe some whites in places like the UK, you know, 771 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: who had experience, perhaps they've been to Yemen and to 772 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: choose some cat there or or ken you and the 773 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: like would would perhaps too. But it is something that 774 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: really seems so very different to most of the the 775 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: sort of mainstream drug culture in somewhere like the UK, 776 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,439 Speaker 1: you know, which does tend to revolve around substances that 777 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: that kind of do give you a more intense feeling 778 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: or a more a quicker effect. I think for a 779 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: lot of people have thought of chewing a wad of cat. 780 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: Chewing a wad of green leaves for hours on end 781 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: is not something that is particularly appealing, you know, beyond 782 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: those communities where it's more traditionally associated. And then I 783 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: think one way that producers in Kenya, people like the 784 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: like the Mary involved in the cat industry, some of 785 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: them have been quite forward thinking and realizing that the 786 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: four of chewing this substance for hours on end is 787 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: not necessarily going to get them, but you know, very 788 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: very much broader repeal than it then it has at 789 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: the moment. So there has been development of things like 790 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of espresso shots of the cat, kind of espresso 791 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: pods that have been developed where you know, the water 792 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: will will come through and the still I suppose that 793 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: must probably be dried cat, but still does apparently produce 794 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: produce the effects that that people are looking for. And 795 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: the other interesting thing they're in Kenya is that there's 796 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,800 Speaker 1: a company that does make um what's called hand ass juice, 797 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: and hand ass is the main Kenyan term for the 798 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: effects of the cat. You know, if you're feeling hand ass, 799 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: you're you're feeling under the influence of the cat. And 800 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: that there is a company selling kind of like the 801 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: equivalent of energy drinks, but produced from from cat. So 802 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: I think these are ways that people are trying to 803 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: make it more repealing, you know, to the wider wider population. 804 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: Let's take a aight here and go to an ad. 805 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,399 Speaker 1: You know, there's also a thing where you and your 806 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: colleague at Bristol or Ga Kanchik, who I also made 807 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: an abuja at the African Drugs Conference in October. You know, 808 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: I put forward this notion of quasi legality and seeing 809 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: that as a useful frame with which to think about 810 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: caught and cannabis and possibly other substances. Who just elaborate 811 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: on that idea of quasi legality, Well, quasi legality is 812 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: our attempt really to get at the these kind of 813 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: legal ambiguities that we see as revolving around substances like 814 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: cat and also cannabis in particular, in various African and 815 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: not just African, elsewhere in the world context. I'm really 816 00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: trying to get at the so with for example, at, 817 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: it always seemed like a substance that was often legal, 818 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: like for example, in Kenya, for for most of post 819 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: independence Kenyan Kenyan history, cat has been legal, yet until recently, 820 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: cat has been seen as something to be held in suspicion, 821 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, partly because the internationally was seen as a 822 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: substance to be suspicious of, and you know, the substance 823 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 1: that had been banned in various other other parts of 824 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: the world. And also the fact that cat, you know, 825 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of produced in these countries legally like Kenya 826 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: and Ethiopia, but then when it travels into somewhere like 827 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,839 Speaker 1: Tanzania or Um or other places, it does you know, 828 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: then enter into an illegal, illegal kind of framing um. 829 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 1: So really we were trying to trying to get it 830 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 1: that kind of that kind of ambiguity of you know, 831 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: substances like cat which aren't really it's not very exactly 832 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 1: clear kind of where they're whether what they're legal, legal 833 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,240 Speaker 1: status is and we've actually it was quite quite quite interesting, 834 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: but it's often legal in places, you know, Ethiopia and Kenya, 835 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,879 Speaker 1: yet often seen as being something kind of illegal. So 836 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: according to the statute books it's legal, yet according to 837 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 1: the way a lot of people in society view it, 838 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of is something that's conflated with these these 839 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: other illegal illegal drugs, and therefore it takes on those 840 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: connotations of being illegal. Whereas, interestingly, with cannabis, it often 841 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 1: seems to be the opposite, you know, cannabis in most 842 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 1: African countries. So it is this is changing now with 843 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 1: various policy changes in relation to cannabis in some African countries, 844 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: but cannabis often seemed to be the opposite. Almost it 845 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,280 Speaker 1: was um usually by the statute books it or certainly 846 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 1: by the statute books it was illegal. Yet often it 847 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: was seen as you know, socially something that was very 848 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: much tolerated or even even supported. And I think that 849 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 1: these kind of terms get get to that idea of 850 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: the fact that what the statute books say, you know, 851 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,919 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily take you very far into how how 852 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: a society views these these kinds of substances. So interesting 853 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: to see that when you're talking about being legal to 854 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: sort of frowned upon. I mean, you tell the story 855 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: about for example, the government of Kenya was generally kind 856 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: of negative about COT until the point where the United 857 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: Kingdom criminalized it. And they criminalize it over the recommendations 858 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: of their own Advisory Committee on Drugs, which I think 859 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: you had advised saying don't criminalize it. And at that 860 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: point can you kind of jumps to the defensive cop 861 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 1: and realize that it's got this economic value in parts 862 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,319 Speaker 1: of the country and realize it's a significant source of 863 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, tax revenue and export revenue for the government. 864 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: So you see a kind of jumping forward to defend it. 865 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,320 Speaker 1: Yet on the other hand, Um, I guess they're also issues. 866 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look with climate change over the 867 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: place like Yemen, you know where issues around water and 868 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: limited access to water and of large parts of agricultural 869 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,240 Speaker 1: land are actually being used to grow caught in places 870 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 1: where you have a country in a major state of disruption, 871 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,279 Speaker 1: that could be problematic. Um, you would think, and I 872 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: think actual Client makes this point in some of his 873 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: writings that development agencies would in fact be embracing CAT 874 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 1: because it's an indigenously produced agricultural you know, uh product 875 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,839 Speaker 1: market something that has international ramifications, especially especially within the region, um, 876 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: yet they seem to stay away from it, uh where 877 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,680 Speaker 1: it's more lucrative than coffee and more reliable and lucrative 878 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: than coffee and some other products that are usually exported 879 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: to foreign markets and therefore provides a good, you know, 880 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,719 Speaker 1: constant source of revenue for farmers in the same way 881 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,560 Speaker 1: that those in Afghanistan benefit from opium and those in 882 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 1: South America benefit from coca. It's a fascinating It's a 883 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: story that is unique in many respects compared to i 884 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 1: mean similar other places. But also it's got its own 885 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,840 Speaker 1: unique dynamics. That's right, and I think it does bring 886 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: out to quite a lot of ambiguit wide the ambiguities 887 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: in the world of drugs more generally. But but that, yes, 888 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: the way it's kind of seen in terms of development, 889 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: you know, something that that obviously that there has been 890 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: quite a lot of concern, especially in places like Ethiopia, 891 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: of farmers, you know, kind of pulling up their coffee plants. 892 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: You often hear of this and planting a cat instead. 893 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,319 Speaker 1: You know, often the idea being like sort of you know, 894 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: coffee giving very very sort of limited funds and generally 895 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: generally being marketed in particular ways where the farmers don't 896 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 1: have particularly much control over it, whereas cats, you know, 897 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,640 Speaker 1: giving much more regular payments and more regular harvests and 898 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,400 Speaker 1: and things like this, as as well as being a 899 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: more more valuable, valuable crop. But I was always amused, 900 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,760 Speaker 1: probably about a decade ago now, reading an article that's 901 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: somebody wrote an Irish guy who runs a coffee coffee 902 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,600 Speaker 1: chain in in Ireland, and he had traveled to Ethiopia 903 00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: and he was horrified because in the in the area 904 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: where some of the coffee was coming from for his 905 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: his chain. He was absolutely horrified to hear about these farmers, 906 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, pulling up coffee plants to plant cat instead 907 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,359 Speaker 1: kind of, but didn't quite see the contradiction of you know, 908 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,400 Speaker 1: it's just a these are both stimulants in a way. 909 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,919 Speaker 1: But you know, no, obviously there is like a hard 910 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: and fast kind of economic logic to why these farmers 911 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: are switching to or were at that time anyway, switching 912 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: to cat. But what explains why it's more lucrative and 913 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,239 Speaker 1: if it's not illegal, usually what adds the price is 914 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,399 Speaker 1: the kind of prohibition tax that you know, the way 915 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 1: in which making something criminal makes it much more valuable 916 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: for those people who produce it, so long as they 917 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,359 Speaker 1: don't get caught by the law. But in the case 918 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 1: of cat, right it's relatively easy to produce, doesn't require 919 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 1: a lot of care um, yet it seems to sell 920 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,280 Speaker 1: for substantially more than most other agricultural products. Why is that? 921 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: That's a really good question, and I think it probably 922 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,839 Speaker 1: almost need to look at that in reverse, like why 923 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,319 Speaker 1: why do the lights of coffee and te fetcher fect 924 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: so little? And partly I think it is to do 925 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: with the particularly in Kenny, of the way the industry 926 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: developed in relation to cats very much more an informal 927 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 1: way of work, way of operating the trade, and you know, 928 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,759 Speaker 1: grew with like you were saying, the Kenyan government for 929 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: a long time was very hands off with cat. They 930 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,839 Speaker 1: realized a lot of people depended on it, so they 931 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: weren't going to prohibit it and move in that direction. 932 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,239 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, they didn't want to be 933 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: seen to be encouraging it for much of of ken 934 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: Year's post independence history, so really let the let the 935 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 1: farmers get on with it. And I think that the 936 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,440 Speaker 1: way it developed in this this kind of way was 937 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,880 Speaker 1: was a lot more on the on the terms of 938 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,960 Speaker 1: the people involved in the in its production, in its trade. 939 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: And yes, it's you know, there's always people who make 940 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: more money in the commodity chain of obviously any any 941 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:58,160 Speaker 1: agricultural commodity or any commodity more generally. But but in general, 942 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 1: I think not having that the corporate way of working 943 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: that things like tea and coffee has um you know, 944 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,040 Speaker 1: with these smallholder farmers, really paps, you know, getting very 945 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: very little for their for their product. You know, this 946 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: is something that has helped CAT maintain its value. M hmm. Now, yeah, 947 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 1: I really know. We didn't quite get deeply into the 948 00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: health aspects of cut, right, I mean, you know, when 949 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,279 Speaker 1: you think about how relatively safe it is, what are 950 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 1: the harms associated with it? I mean, what more can 951 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,000 Speaker 1: you tell us about, you know, the margins of risk 952 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 1: and benefit from a health perspective about cut chewing? Yes, 953 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,719 Speaker 1: very important question. Yeah, in general, a lot a lot 954 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: of research on the kind of health harms because people 955 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,959 Speaker 1: much more often, I think, in research on cat and 956 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: other substances like this, focus on harms, don't they rather 957 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: than the potential benefits of these these kinds of substances. 958 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,359 Speaker 1: You know, the way the way research might be might 959 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 1: be framed, but certainly our issues associated of it um 960 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: in particular, for example, um dental problems can be can 961 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,479 Speaker 1: be quite a big issue, particularly with people who chew 962 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,800 Speaker 1: cheaper varieties of cat which can be very bitter, so 963 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,760 Speaker 1: a lot often the sweeten them with bubblegum or sugar, 964 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, and if you're not brushing your teeth kind 965 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,960 Speaker 1: of well after that, that that can lead to to issues. 966 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: So sort of dental problems can be can be quite 967 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: quite a big issue. And the probably the most alarming 968 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,399 Speaker 1: thing you hear about in relation to cat. Again, it's 969 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of causality, as as with all 970 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,160 Speaker 1: these things, it's very hard to pull apart. But you 971 00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,000 Speaker 1: do hear people talk of the syndrome called cat psychosis 972 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,880 Speaker 1: um of you know, people having psychotic episodes after after 973 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 1: consuming a cat um. And there seems to be some 974 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,279 Speaker 1: evidence that cat may have play may have played a 975 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 1: cause of role in in in the In regard to this, 976 00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,160 Speaker 1: though often seems to have been much more the case 977 00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: among people who have experienced, you know how high degrees 978 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,000 Speaker 1: of trauma you know, perhaps in the in the Somali 979 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:14,319 Speaker 1: Civil war, or you know, kind of the refugee refugee process. Um, So, 980 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: how do you sort of disaggregate cats and issues of causality, 981 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, from these other wider, wider factors that might 982 00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,640 Speaker 1: make people more susceptible to um to two psychesis is 983 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,239 Speaker 1: quite a quite a difficult thing. So, Neil, from a 984 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 1: policy perspective, I mean, from everything we've talked about and 985 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,239 Speaker 1: from all my reading and preparing for our discussion, it 986 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,720 Speaker 1: seems to me that of what we're making a policy recommendation, 987 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: one would be saying, don't criminalize this stuff. There's no 988 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,040 Speaker 1: reason for countries around the world to be criminalizing it 989 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,880 Speaker 1: um and that the harms of criminalization probably exceed you know, 990 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,879 Speaker 1: the benefits of criminalization. That the United Nations has been 991 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,880 Speaker 1: smart not to try to criminalize card or, including the 992 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,839 Speaker 1: city of the International Anti Drug Conventions, in that the 993 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,879 Speaker 1: UN agencies, the UN o DC, and the International Cards 994 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:09,920 Speaker 1: Control Board the i n c B, should you know, 995 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,839 Speaker 1: just keep their hands off it and shut up. And 996 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,280 Speaker 1: then basically the risk of full legalization, even full global legalization, 997 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:22,439 Speaker 1: are pretty negligible given the relative sort of benefit risk 998 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,720 Speaker 1: ratio of cut use. Would you agree, I think, I 999 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,120 Speaker 1: think on the whole yes, and it was quite a 1000 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,600 Speaker 1: difficult issue actually in the for example, in the UK 1001 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,080 Speaker 1: context with the band that came in twenty fourteen, particularly 1002 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: as so much support for the band was coming, especially 1003 00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:44,400 Speaker 1: mostly from Somali's within the UK. It was quite quite 1004 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: a thing, you know when the community themselves that even 1005 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,400 Speaker 1: people who did Chew, a lot of them kind of 1006 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,840 Speaker 1: argued that it should be banned, you know, this thing 1007 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: should be should be banned. So that that was an 1008 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 1: aspect of the debates that that is, you know, for 1009 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: for the scholars and aviously because it is quite an 1010 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,400 Speaker 1: interesting good, you know, quite quite a difficult thing to 1011 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,080 Speaker 1: deal with in some ways, you know when it is 1012 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,080 Speaker 1: coming from the community themselves. Than My kind of perspective 1013 00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,960 Speaker 1: at the time of the UK ban was how like 1014 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,720 Speaker 1: it was. It was really an opportunity, I thought, for 1015 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,960 Speaker 1: the UK government to try and bring in something, you know, 1016 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,919 Speaker 1: some better policy to towards CAT. So for example, the 1017 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,440 Speaker 1: before Cat was banned, it the British government was raising 1018 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,440 Speaker 1: revenue on on cat imports um and it's you know, 1019 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: it seemed like potentially a way of a way of 1020 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 1: dealing with a lot of the issues that the communities 1021 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,480 Speaker 1: were concerned about in relation to to cat you know, 1022 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,800 Speaker 1: and wider issues facing communities like the Somalis in the UK, 1023 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,200 Speaker 1: that maybe some of that tax revenue could be kind 1024 00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: of hypothecated, you know, it could have been put towards 1025 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,280 Speaker 1: efforts to help those communities, or or policies such as 1026 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,480 Speaker 1: such as that. You know that that wouldn't have been 1027 00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,400 Speaker 1: been a band because what what has effectively happened in 1028 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,440 Speaker 1: the UK is that nobody's happy now having over then 1029 00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,840 Speaker 1: the UK government which is kind of kicked the issue 1030 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: of into the into the long grass um. But no, 1031 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pushing you too. You give 1032 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,600 Speaker 1: me a straight answer here. I'm saying, if somebody asks you, 1033 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: Neil Carrier, what should we do with our God? Should 1034 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,960 Speaker 1: this stuff simply be legal around the world. There's got 1035 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,479 Speaker 1: no business being a prohibited substance anywhere. Would you say yes? 1036 00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: Or would you say I don't know or no? I 1037 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:37,920 Speaker 1: would I would generally say yes, okay, yes, yeah, it's good. 1038 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,480 Speaker 1: Good to push. I think where the sensitivitivities come though, 1039 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:45,320 Speaker 1: because it are those sensitivities of you know, so much 1040 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,760 Speaker 1: of the calls for it to be banned coming from 1041 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 1: the communities themselves, you see. But as you say, I mean, 1042 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,360 Speaker 1: there's been such a history in the world were often times, 1043 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, people from indigenous communities or others will call 1044 00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:59,040 Speaker 1: for prohibitions, you know, not foreseeing all the ways in 1045 00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,760 Speaker 1: which those prohibitions will have radically negative consequences for their communities. So, 1046 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, my view has been it's kind of incumbent 1047 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: on anybody looks at this from both the policy perspective 1048 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,720 Speaker 1: and a human rights perspective, you know, to look at 1049 01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,360 Speaker 1: it clearly and speak clearly, even if people from when 1050 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,959 Speaker 1: those communities are divided about what the policy should be. Yes, yeah, 1051 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,760 Speaker 1: that's a very fair point. Well, I'll tell you. I 1052 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,160 Speaker 1: want to thank you ever so much for having this 1053 01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:27,040 Speaker 1: conversation about Catt with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. 1054 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:28,520 Speaker 1: As I said, I think it may be the first 1055 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,120 Speaker 1: podcast ever, although maybe I missed one on this issue 1056 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,840 Speaker 1: of cott uh and hopefully uh we see policies. Policy 1057 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,720 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be changing very much anywhere in the 1058 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:39,760 Speaker 1: world right now, but it you know, it seems like 1059 01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,720 Speaker 1: it's not doing too much harm, although it could be better. 1060 01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,000 Speaker 1: But you know, thank you very much. The best of luck. Yeah, 1061 01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,440 Speaker 1: I was just going to make one final point that 1062 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,920 Speaker 1: it's quite interesting because well, well you know, when we 1063 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 1: think about how drug policy does seem to be influx 1064 01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,439 Speaker 1: quite a bit, I think substances are going in different directions. 1065 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,320 Speaker 1: You know, Cannabis around the world seeming to become more 1066 01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: liberalized in various parts of the world. Whereas cat, you know, 1067 01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,640 Speaker 1: something most people I think would see as a mildest substance, 1068 01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,640 Speaker 1: but you know, he's becoming more and more illegal around 1069 01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,840 Speaker 1: the world. So so I think cat and cannabis do 1070 01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: do you speak to a lot of the ambiguities of 1071 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: when you put those into comparison. Well, with that, Neil, 1072 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: I want to thank you ever so much for having 1073 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,840 Speaker 1: this conversation with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. Thank you, 1074 01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:32,760 Speaker 1: thank you very much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell 1075 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: your friends about it, or you can write us a 1076 01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,040 Speaker 1: review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 1077 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,800 Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like 1078 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,800 Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave 1079 01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,760 Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven 1080 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:53,800 Speaker 1: nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you 1081 01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:57,480 Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or 1082 01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,440 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Mad. You can 1083 01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is 1084 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's 1085 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 1: hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noham Osband 1086 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:16,720 Speaker 1: and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 1087 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:21,120 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoma Pictures, Alex Williams 1088 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,320 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. 1089 01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,600 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1090 01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:43,840 Speaker 1: to ab Brios f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BB. Next 1091 01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:48,480 Speaker 1: week I'll be talking with Dennis McKenna, the famed ethnobodanist 1092 01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,240 Speaker 1: and anthropologist whose book The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss 1093 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,040 Speaker 1: will soon be re released. Well, science fiction was a 1094 01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:00,560 Speaker 1: huge influence somics, you know, and cultivate A did a 1095 01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:06,840 Speaker 1: fascination with the esoteric and the strange, you know, I mean, 1096 01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:11,880 Speaker 1: for our from our perspective, you know, we were weird 1097 01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,120 Speaker 1: and the weirder the better, you know. And so when 1098 01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:21,520 Speaker 1: psychedelics came along. I think that we viewed it not 1099 01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:30,480 Speaker 1: from a context of UH spirituality or or indigenous practices 1100 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,560 Speaker 1: or anything like that. I mean, we discovered that later, 1101 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:39,680 Speaker 1: but originally the idea was that these are other dimensions. 1102 01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,040 Speaker 1: Psychedelics can take you to other dimensions, and we thought 1103 01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:48,160 Speaker 1: of that quite literally, subscribe to Psychoactive now see you 1104 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:48,880 Speaker 1: don't miss it.