Speaker 1: I'm Noah, I'm Devin, I'm Rachel. And this is no
Speaker 1: such thing the show where we settle art arguments and
Speaker 1: yours by actually doing the research.
Speaker 2: This week?
Speaker 1: Why do I only have one option for Internet? And
Speaker 1: it's a bad one.
Speaker 3: Then they pull out their little iPad and say, yeah,
Speaker 3: we don't offer the service, but glad to know you're interested.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just wasted both for our time. There's no
Speaker 2: no such thing, no such thing, such thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, we are back this week in lieu of Manny.
Speaker 1: We are joined by Rachel ascona journalist and founder of
Speaker 1: Throwing Spaghetti Media.
Speaker 4: Hi, Rachel, thanks for having me friend of the pod.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's your title. Do you have Internet?
Speaker 5: I do have Internet?
Speaker 2: Oka, and do you like your ISP?
Speaker 5: Not particularly?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 5: I don't.
Speaker 4: I feel like it is constantly crapping out.
Speaker 5: It doesn't reach some of the rooms in my apartment.
Speaker 3: Oh I love that.
Speaker 4: And they're like, oh, I can't go through the wall.
Speaker 5: Why why I could not go through the walls?
Speaker 3: That's an issue because my apartment has walls exactly the Internet. Yeah,
Speaker 3: of course I have Internet.
Speaker 2: And how is that for you?
Speaker 3: I'm old school, so not only do I have Internet.
Speaker 3: I also have cable all in one I got.
Speaker 2: I got the bundle bundle.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I like watching my sports, my Mets, and I don't
Speaker 3: want to have to figure out how to do that
Speaker 3: on the internet, So yeah, I have both. I had
Speaker 3: Optimum for a while. It was pretty terrible, but it
Speaker 3: was my only option for most of the time. I
Speaker 3: was at my apartment, so I would call them and
Speaker 3: complain and I would say, basically, well, what the hell
Speaker 3: are you going to do because you can't get anything else,
Speaker 3: And I would be like, you're right.
Speaker 2: But I'm still upset it's not working.
Speaker 3: It's similar deserts, like you know, signal issues. There'll be
Speaker 3: times where it's just down for no reason. I've been
Speaker 3: weather related. Over the last couple of years, I've had
Speaker 3: for as and bios, which started out really strong. When
Speaker 3: I first got it, I was like, whoa, this is
Speaker 3: so much better. It's fiber or whatever they're saying, and
Speaker 3: it was in the beginning. Lately it's been not as great,
Speaker 3: but yeah, like I don't want to switch back to Optimum,
Speaker 3: so I'm kind of stuck.
Speaker 1: Yeah, cross, I also have Internet, but sometimes I don't. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: when I want, you know, I'm paying for it, and
Speaker 1: this is my issue.
Speaker 3: And as someone who has the video, call for you.
Speaker 3: You haven't drop out.
Speaker 2: It's been much worse slately. Yeah, he's been bit at bad.
Speaker 1: Welcome to this column, may be recorded.
Speaker 6: How can I help you today?
Speaker 1: My internet is out one moment please, So you're dropping
Speaker 1: out on calls, they won't give you the day back, No.
Speaker 4: Good luck trying to call get your money.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's what I've tried to do. Then I
Speaker 1: run speed tests with this company. I'll run them, I'll
Speaker 1: take screenshots every you know, ten minutes or something, so
Speaker 1: I have a document because I've called in the past.
Speaker 1: They say, okay, we can't do anything. I'll be like,
Speaker 1: oh it's been bad since Tuesday. I'm calling on a Friday.
Speaker 1: So they're like, well, we can't do anything because we
Speaker 1: didn't run the test. Then so they don't they don't
Speaker 1: believe it.
Speaker 2: They must know.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, it's like you're saying, they know I
Speaker 1: don't have another option. No, So the best I've got,
Speaker 1: like after begging for you know, spending basically my whole
Speaker 1: day on the phone with them, They'll give me like
Speaker 1: five dollars back and I'm paying, you know, over one
Speaker 1: hundred dollars for this. I've upgraded my service, so I'm
Speaker 1: getting one gig just to hope that I can even
Speaker 1: get half of what they're offering, because that's kind of
Speaker 1: been problem. I'm saying, like, Okay, I'm paying for five
Speaker 1: hundred gigabytes, I'm not getting even close to that, and
Speaker 1: the upload speeds are even worse, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: to pull the curtain back. Aside from no such thing.
Speaker 1: I also edit podcasts and videos for other people.
Speaker 2: To pay me.
Speaker 1: And if I can't, you know, upload a video can
Speaker 1: be a problem.
Speaker 2: I'm on the phone with someone I'm gonna lose my job.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna lose my job and I'm gonna have to move.
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: be able to pay you anything. Well that's basically what
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping just like you know, And they're like, first
Speaker 1: of all, my wife was the account holder. They're like,
Speaker 1: who are you talking to? I say, the account is Julia.
Speaker 1: They're like, so this is this is not Julia?
Speaker 7: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I said.
Speaker 1: I was like, you don't know who you're on the
Speaker 1: phone with Julia can have also like why would I
Speaker 1: why would.
Speaker 2: I be calling?
Speaker 1: I don't know what I would even be doing if
Speaker 1: I wasn't suffering from there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm doing.
Speaker 1: This to upgrade someone else's internet. But yeah, once I
Speaker 1: had a basically restart the whole process because they didn't
Speaker 1: believe that I was my wife, which was it's true,
Speaker 1: you are not. They were right that I'm not my wife,
Speaker 1: but they don't they don't. They shouldn't have known that.
Speaker 1: What's what's wild is that's like my my smallest issue
Speaker 1: with this is SP my Internet service provider. But what's
Speaker 1: most frustrating is sometimes I've had people from competing once
Speaker 1: come to my door, knock on my door and say, hey,
Speaker 1: are you interested in this? I go, I mean yeah, potentially,
Speaker 1: but can you do it? And then they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we actually don't offer this here.
Speaker 5: I've had this.
Speaker 1: They're asking to get interest so then maybe they can
Speaker 1: push for.
Speaker 3: You would think the people because I've had this too,
Speaker 3: They come to your door, they say, hey, do you
Speaker 3: want they were doing this with me your actual door, Yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: they're in the building, not even know how we got
Speaker 3: up here before walk up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's actually very impressive. Who let you in first
Speaker 2: of all?
Speaker 3: But then you coming they're off here and they're talking about, hey,
Speaker 3: yeah you thought about switching, and so yeah, I've thought
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 2: But lest that chuck.
Speaker 3: You guys don't offer the service.
Speaker 2: I think about all the time.
Speaker 3: The little iPad and say, yeah, we don't offer the service.
Speaker 3: But glad to know you're interested. Yeah, you just wasted
Speaker 3: both for our time that you could have looked that
Speaker 3: up earlier. How don't you know this? You're walking around
Speaker 3: here for the company and you don't know that you
Speaker 3: can't service men.
Speaker 1: I want to know if you know these ISP's counts
Speaker 1: where you know in my neighborhood, say Crown Heights, Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: I only have one option?
Speaker 2: Why is that not a monopoly?
Speaker 3: Sounds like a monopoly to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So after the break, we're going to talk to someone
Speaker 1: who hopefully can answer some of these questions for us,
Speaker 1: and maybe I'll be better equipped to find a new.
Speaker 2: Internet provider without moving.
Speaker 5: Here's hoping.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back. I'm Noah Devin Rachel.
Speaker 1: We're talking about ISP's aka Internet Service providers and why
Speaker 1: I only have the option of one to try to
Speaker 1: answer some of these questions and hopefully maybe work towards solutions.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk to Emily Stewart, senior correspondent at
Speaker 1: Business Insider.
Speaker 2: Hi, Emily, Hello, thank you Pard having me.
Speaker 1: We'll introduce yourself a little bit in some of the
Speaker 1: reporting you've done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm a reporter at Business Insider. What is
Speaker 5: my beat? Who knows? What do I cover?
Speaker 7: I write about consumerism, right about the economy. I do
Speaker 7: sometimes write about scams, but more like the scam that
Speaker 7: is capitalism, the big scam, which is like where the
Speaker 7: ISP stuff comes in. Like candidly, a few years ago,
Speaker 7: I was very mad at my internet company and I
Speaker 7: was like, well, this is stupid, Like how in the
Speaker 7: world is this happening. I live in like one of
Speaker 7: the biggest cities in the world. Yeah, I'm like this candy,
Speaker 7: this difficult, and like, you know, that is the scam
Speaker 7: that is the world that we live in. That isn't
Speaker 7: like somebody calling your grandma telling your kidnapped. Just like
Speaker 7: you know, you're talking to a giant company being like
Speaker 7: why is my service always worse? And it's somehow constantly
Speaker 7: more expensive and yet here we are and you know
Speaker 7: that I am trapped exactly.
Speaker 1: So Emily, can we first start how are internet service
Speaker 1: providers set up in the US?
Speaker 2: How are they made?
Speaker 7: I mean, like as much as like we think of
Speaker 7: the Internet now as like Wi Fi right, like it's
Speaker 7: actually physical infrastructure and cables, and I think, like that's
Speaker 7: like I am not an Internet how it works expert,
Speaker 7: but I think sometimes like people forget there's kind of
Speaker 7: like a backbone of like fiber off the cables that
Speaker 7: going across the country, and then you get into like
Speaker 7: regional providers, and then you get into the more local providers. Usually,
Speaker 7: I think when we think about what's wrong with the
Speaker 7: Internet and who we're dealing with, what we kind of
Speaker 7: are talking about is like the last mid which is
Speaker 7: whatever cable that's connected to your door. And so that's
Speaker 7: kind of I think what the issue is. But it works,
Speaker 7: you know, like cable companies in the nineties, Like I
Speaker 7: grew up in rural Wisconsin and my dad used to
Speaker 7: like chase down the cable.
Speaker 5: Guy, being like when are you coming so that I
Speaker 5: can have cable?
Speaker 7: And if you think about the names and like the
Speaker 7: companies you have, your cable company and your internet company
Speaker 7: are the same company, right, Like if I want cable,
Speaker 7: which do I want that nowadays?
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 7: Some people do. They're probably my internet company too, and
Speaker 7: even my phone company.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just already had the cable lines and we
Speaker 1: kind of added it.
Speaker 7: I mean, we've had the cable lines. But it is like,
Speaker 7: you know, it's an ongoing project. Like I'm really started
Speaker 7: this like five years ago and it was like one
Speaker 7: in five New Yorkers doesn't have Internet.
Speaker 5: Like that's not the case anymore.
Speaker 7: Like I was talking to somebody versus the city this
Speaker 7: morning and I was like, you know, or does everybody
Speaker 7: have the Internet now?
Speaker 5: And she was like, well, like yes.
Speaker 7: But some of them can't afford it and some of
Speaker 7: them don't want it. But like, you know, I think
Speaker 7: a lot of the issue is this is like a
Speaker 7: big infrastructure project when you think about it, like you
Speaker 7: have to dig up streets, you have polls, like, you
Speaker 7: have all of these things. And so I think kind
Speaker 7: of the story of the Internet, not only in New
Speaker 7: York but everywhere. It's like once you've dug up the
Speaker 7: street and you've put in the cable, nobody wants to
Speaker 7: go behind you to do that again. So like a
Speaker 7: competitor is not going to come in. And also you
Speaker 7: spend all this time and money putting in these cables,
Speaker 7: like you're not eager to be like, hey, I'm optimum
Speaker 7: of like.
Speaker 5: AG and T do you guys want it on this too?
Speaker 7: Like nobody's doing that, And so I think that's the issue,
Speaker 7: and like, you know, this is kind of like a
Speaker 7: rural urban problem, like I think sometimes like we hear
Speaker 7: a lot about rural broadband, which I know is not
Speaker 7: really like what we're talking about here, but like they
Speaker 7: are like different types of issues in rural I don't know,
Speaker 7: like Idaho, they don't necessarily have broadband because it's not
Speaker 7: lucrative for like a big company to send out the
Speaker 7: internet out there, right, And in like urban areas, it's
Speaker 7: like a little bit of a different story. I mean,
Speaker 7: some of it's just like the monopoly problem, and some
Speaker 7: of it's the expense problem. And that's really like everywhere,
Speaker 7: like average internet bills are like sixty seventy eighty dollars
Speaker 7: like across the country, and you only have access to
Speaker 7: the internet if you have seventy dollars to spend, and
Speaker 7: not everybody has seventy dollars to spend.
Speaker 1: In a situation that we're all in separately. Did Optimum
Speaker 1: just say like, hey, we're going to take this area.
Speaker 1: How did that land grab happen?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 7: I mean a lot of it is like you know,
Speaker 7: a city will say, or a municipality whatever, we'll.
Speaker 5: Say we need internet here.
Speaker 7: So like you make a deal with a company and
Speaker 7: you say, all right, we're going to let you come in,
Speaker 7: and like maybe we'll give you some subsidies, maybe we won't,
Speaker 7: or maybe like you'll promise up in order to like
Speaker 7: wire up our city or our area.
Speaker 5: You will give us like a public access TV channel
Speaker 5: like whatever it would be. And there's a lot of
Speaker 5: it's cable too.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and so now you like wind up in a
Speaker 7: situation where there's just all of these like natural monopolies. Basically,
Speaker 7: like I said before, like it kind of makes sense
Speaker 7: to some extent. Yeah, if you build out the whole thing,
Speaker 7: like you're not going to be super eager to let
Speaker 7: somebody else do it. It's also a little bit complicated
Speaker 7: because a lot of states also have laws that saying,
Speaker 7: like certain municipalities can't do their own broadband, and so
Speaker 7: like we really kind of let.
Speaker 5: The companies take over, and companies.
Speaker 7: Don't want to compete, right like, they want to make
Speaker 7: as much money as they can for as many people
Speaker 7: as they can and deal with as few competitors as possible,
Speaker 7: and so like we wind up with this situation where like, yeah,
Speaker 7: maybe this has happened for a reason, but also like
Speaker 7: is this ideal when you are calling your internet provider
Speaker 7: and like begging for a discount.
Speaker 1: So I asked how internet service compares to public utilities
Speaker 1: like electricity, gas, or water. Emily said, the stronger comparison
Speaker 1: is to the mail, meaning we don't think about the
Speaker 1: postal service as a utility, but if it was completely
Speaker 1: privatized to the reality is many areas like say rural
Speaker 1: Montana simply wouldn't have the mail because it wouldn't make
Speaker 1: financial sense for the providers. But access to the Internet,
Speaker 1: even though most people do need it in some capacity
Speaker 1: at least, is held in the hands of private companies.
Speaker 3: So does it mean in a practical sense, Let's say,
Speaker 3: let's say electricity or water, right like, so, like, you know,
Speaker 3: New York State is building the infrastructure, you know, for
Speaker 3: the most part, for those things. And then if you're
Speaker 3: building a building, obviously you're you know, building the pipes
Speaker 3: within your building. But is the idea that like, because
Speaker 3: those are public utilities, the city is investing in creating
Speaker 3: those lines or whatever versus like the Internet is more
Speaker 3: relying on Hey, Comcast, if you're optimum, if you're going
Speaker 3: to come in here, you are going to build out
Speaker 3: the infrastructure because that's not our responsibility.
Speaker 7: Right, and like maybe we will give you some subsidies
Speaker 7: or like make some special agreements with.
Speaker 5: You, but like incentivies you to do that, right, Like, hey,
Speaker 5: also if.
Speaker 7: We give you a bunch of money to build out
Speaker 7: these lines and like, oh, you guys had other expensive
Speaker 7: views on Like there you go. And that's kind of
Speaker 7: I think then the story like across kind of the
Speaker 7: Internet being built out of like you know, companies are
Speaker 7: making deals with cities, with states, with governments, and like
Speaker 7: you know, a company's incentives are just different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like it's yeah, it's basically purely a market
Speaker 1: thing where it's like we know tons of people live
Speaker 1: here and need internet, so we'll provide for them. It's
Speaker 1: not like we all agree everyone agrees people need water, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so let's get the water. There's most people want internet,
Speaker 1: and people will buy it, but it's not a necessity
Speaker 1: in the same way, yeah, or as we see it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think as we see it is probably the
Speaker 4: key because I think it's like now become almost as
Speaker 4: much of a necessity to live, to work, to pay bills,
Speaker 4: to literally do so many things that even yeah, even
Speaker 4: somebody who's disconnected theoretically, yeah, banking something like you, there's
Speaker 4: so many things you do need it for that It's like,
Speaker 4: at what point are we going to realize that it
Speaker 4: is actually a necessity the same way electricity wasn't always
Speaker 4: a necessity?
Speaker 7: Ye, right, Well, if you like, think back to the pandemic,
Speaker 7: even with those pictures of kids sitting outside of a
Speaker 7: McDonald's schoolwork, those were kids that didn't have.
Speaker 5: Internet at home.
Speaker 2: After the break? Am I fighting a monopoly?
Speaker 1: Can you first define and we've thrown around a little bit,
Speaker 1: can you define a monopoly?
Speaker 2: And then I want to see if this is one.
Speaker 7: I mean monopoly is basically like a company where it's
Speaker 7: the only game in town, and like in town, I.
Speaker 5: Mean like a specific market, not in the world.
Speaker 7: I mean you think about it in a lot of
Speaker 7: different ways, Like a lot of people would say, like
Speaker 7: Amazon is a monopoly, right, like in terms of just
Speaker 7: e commerce, and like it as much as like maybe
Speaker 7: Walmart's a competitor, like is it I don't know or
Speaker 7: like to beers the Diamond Company for a long time
Speaker 7: was the monopoly. Sometimes when I think about monopolies, I
Speaker 7: also think about this sounds born like oligopolies, which is
Speaker 7: sometimes and I think it's a lot more common across
Speaker 7: our economy. It's like a handful of companies really like
Speaker 7: control the show. If you think about like airlines, right,
Speaker 7: it's like what America Delta United, you know, and then
Speaker 7: a couple of smaller players, you know, phones, T Mobile,
Speaker 7: AT and T Verizon and T Mobile actually merged with
Speaker 7: sprently a couple of years ago. I was saying, like,
Speaker 7: we have to be bigger so that we can compete
Speaker 7: with these even bigger guys.
Speaker 5: And like I am a little bit of a monopoly.
Speaker 7: Not like I try not to be liked, but like
Speaker 7: it is one of those things when like when you
Speaker 7: start to see it, you see it everywhere, when you
Speaker 7: realize that like what you think is like your cute
Speaker 7: little craft beer.
Speaker 5: Is made by is owned at least by Anheuser.
Speaker 7: Bush's so crazy it really is like, oh man, like
Speaker 7: there's no such thing a small business.
Speaker 2: Right, you're seeing a different label. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you think monopolies are bad and why or what
Speaker 1: are the issues?
Speaker 7: I think this in an ideal like healthy economy, we
Speaker 7: want competition, right, And the big problem with a monopoly
Speaker 7: or noologopoly is when companies don't have to compete when
Speaker 7: they have so much power, consumers lose out, workers lose out,
Speaker 7: et cetera. The way that we kind of deal with
Speaker 7: monopolies and like anti trust policy right now is very
Speaker 7: much the consumer standard. It's like, is the consumer spending
Speaker 7: more money? And if they are, then that is bad.
Speaker 7: If two drug companies sell insulin and they're increasing prices
Speaker 7: like in tandem.
Speaker 5: Bad right.
Speaker 7: I think also though, like sometimes we don't think about
Speaker 7: the other.
Speaker 5: Consequences of monopolies, Like it's also.
Speaker 7: Bad for labor, right, it's bad for wages if you
Speaker 7: have a ton of power and workers can really work
Speaker 7: at one company like there you go, or like suppliers,
Speaker 7: like if you want to sell out Walmart, you have
Speaker 7: to do what Walmart says.
Speaker 5: The same thing with Amazon. Like I've done a lot
Speaker 5: of reporting.
Speaker 7: Like talking to small businesses most of them will say,
Speaker 7: like you with Amazon, it's like a real trade off,
Speaker 7: Like I have to be there because otherwise I will
Speaker 7: not reach people. Also like I have to deal with
Speaker 7: you know exactly their terms in terms of how much,
Speaker 7: but could they take in terms of their return policies.
Speaker 7: You want there to be more options, and I think
Speaker 7: like that's where like we see like the fewer options
Speaker 7: there are that kind of just shows up in ways
Speaker 7: that are bad economically but even culturally, Like you want
Speaker 7: to feel like, oh, like a small business can make it,
Speaker 7: or like there is some level of variety in the world.
Speaker 3: Can you tell the story about the diapers company with
Speaker 3: them in Amazon, because I feel like this company time
Speaker 3: time again of like Amazon wanting to get into a
Speaker 3: space and then just lowering the prices and then like
Speaker 3: basically buying out the company.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So basically it was like twenty ten, Amazon sees
Speaker 7: this diaper company, Quizz, and was like, hey, hey, like
Speaker 7: we would like to buy you, Like looks like you
Speaker 7: guys are doing good work, and like the company's like.
Speaker 5: No, no, we can like do this on our own.
Speaker 5: We'll grow on our own.
Speaker 7: And then Amazon like turns around and launches basically its
Speaker 7: own version of this diaper service, and it like kills
Speaker 7: the company and they ultimately have to agree to be
Speaker 7: sold to Amazon.
Speaker 8: Let's check in on some of today's top corporate news.
Speaker 8: According with to two people rather with knowledge of the matter,
Speaker 8: Amazon near an agreement to buy Quitsy, this is the
Speaker 8: owner of diapers dot com and soap dot Com, for
Speaker 8: five hundred and forty million dollars. Amazon found an unlikely
Speaker 8: competitor in the company, which in its early days simply
Speaker 8: brought I don't know the place of diapers to costco
Speaker 8: and ship them to customers. Quitzy plans to ship five
Speaker 8: hundred million diapers this year, expect sales on the whole
Speaker 8: to increase sixty seven percent to three hundred million dollars.
Speaker 8: In agreement may come as soon as today.
Speaker 7: And I think that's why, Like Amazon is like a
Speaker 7: tricky one, and they will say like we're absolutely not
Speaker 7: on a novel, like look at how we keep prices low,
Speaker 7: and like sure, but also nobody can compete with Amazon,
Speaker 7: like you have to be on there, and like you know,
Speaker 7: they also say they're keeping prices low, which sure, probably,
Speaker 7: but also like there is a world where I think
Speaker 7: at least a reasonable person could say, if there were
Speaker 7: more Amazon's, would prices be low? Or because you can
Speaker 7: undercut the diaper company. Once the diaper company is dead,
Speaker 7: then you can charge you know, whatever you want.
Speaker 4: Basically, I feel like the price on Amazon aren't even
Speaker 4: that low anymore. Like when it first came a thing,
Speaker 4: it was like, oh my god, you're paying nothing for
Speaker 4: all of these products. And now it's like the same price,
Speaker 4: if not maybe a little more than like me going
Speaker 4: downstairs at the convenience store and like figuring that out.
Speaker 6: Yep.
Speaker 1: Following that, can we kind of broaden out on us
Speaker 1: anti trustpowe, can you give us in broad strokes maybe
Speaker 1: how attitudes have changed as far as the government's role
Speaker 1: in it over the past century.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, like anti
Speaker 7: trust policy dates back to eighteen hundred and nineteen hundred.
Speaker 5: It's like it's Clayton Act, the Suremanact done.
Speaker 7: Like there are certain things around like right, like if
Speaker 7: two companies are emerging, like, yeah, is that anti competitive?
Speaker 5: Does that mean there will be less competition that they
Speaker 5: will be bad?
Speaker 7: The big story, at least like in modern day is
Speaker 7: like kind of what's happened since like the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 7: an I trust policy became like much more market focused,
Speaker 7: kind of like the market will take care of itself.
Speaker 7: And basically the idea is, if I'm an entrepreneur and
Speaker 7: I have a really good idea and my company gets
Speaker 7: really big, other people will look around and be like,
Speaker 7: I should do that too, and then they will come
Speaker 7: in and they will create businesses and they will kind
Speaker 7: of compete with me and therefore like push my prices down.
Speaker 7: And that's kind of been the theory of the case.
Speaker 7: We can look at the result over the past forty
Speaker 7: years and say, like, how has this worked? And again,
Speaker 7: like we have four airlines, like three big beer companies.
Speaker 7: What these companies will say is three of us is enough,
Speaker 7: But like is it?
Speaker 5: Like I don't know.
Speaker 7: And then you see, like under the Biden administration, you
Speaker 7: have Lena Khan come into the FTC and she's pretty aggressive,
Speaker 7: doing big cases and you know, trying to like enforce
Speaker 7: these antitrust laws, and she has a different kind of
Speaker 7: theory of the case.
Speaker 9: The idea is that if a company is being abusive
Speaker 9: towards its customers, those customers can go elsewhere. But if
Speaker 9: you see a persistent pattern of a company raising prices,
Speaker 9: degrading service, making it impossible to actually get somebody on
Speaker 9: the phone, all these big and small ways that the
Speaker 9: consumer experience is worse and you don't see defections. Similarly,
Speaker 9: you can see the same thing on the worker side.
Speaker 5: That can be direct evidence.
Speaker 9: Of monopoly power, that companies are at a stage where
Speaker 9: they can make things worse without losing out in the market.
Speaker 7: And even like the Trump administration is keeping some of
Speaker 7: these cases around against like Meta against Google. But I think,
Speaker 7: you know, we also have to realize the courts have
Speaker 7: a role in this as well. Like just because the
Speaker 7: DOJ Susan says Meta you shouldn't have been able to
Speaker 7: have Instagram and what's that doesn't mean that like a
Speaker 7: judge is going to agree.
Speaker 1: So then from here in Brooklyn and I can only
Speaker 1: have one option for Internet. Does that qualify as a
Speaker 1: monopoly in your eyes and then in the eyes of
Speaker 1: the law?
Speaker 7: I mean, I think so, I don't think it's in
Speaker 7: a monopoly that the FGC or like TISS Games, like
Speaker 7: the AG of New York could like come after and
Speaker 7: be like yeah, But I think that like in general,
Speaker 7: I guess I will say on the Internet, I as
Speaker 7: a person who also has one option, like it is
Speaker 7: getting better to some extent with wireless, and like five G.
Speaker 5: Basically is that like an exact competitor. I don't know
Speaker 5: my neighbor you sits a T Mobile Home Internet.
Speaker 4: Yet if went to a T Mobiles wireless five G network,
Speaker 4: so all I got into was plug in one court
Speaker 4: T Mobile five G home Internet.
Speaker 3: But so this idea of five G is that, hey,
Speaker 3: you don't need to get internet installed in your home
Speaker 3: with a router and the Wi Fi because we're gonna
Speaker 3: use the same basically the same way you get internet
Speaker 3: on your phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's essentially hot spotting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can get for your computer through that same
Speaker 3: Is that the thing?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's the thinking.
Speaker 7: And like I feel like T Mobile is constantly like,
Speaker 7: don't you want to come over here?
Speaker 5: And it's like, I know, is that is that good?
Speaker 5: Is it as good?
Speaker 7: And I think that's the question. But I do think
Speaker 7: you can't look at the situation here, like in your
Speaker 7: own little neighborhood and say like this is a monopoly
Speaker 7: and maybe it's not like exactly Optimum's fault or Whoever's
Speaker 7: fault they're doing this like they're enjoying this situation and
Speaker 7: like you are not.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna accept that the Internet is a monopoly.
Speaker 1: How's the US approach to antitrust? How does that differ
Speaker 1: from like Europe and other in Asia and other areas
Speaker 1: around the world.
Speaker 7: You know, Europe in general has just been more aggressive
Speaker 7: on corporate power. I read a book by this economist
Speaker 7: named Thomas Philippon, and he talked about in France with
Speaker 7: the Internet specifically, what they did was put in a
Speaker 7: regulation that required Internet companies to lease out like that
Speaker 7: last mile I was talking about, of their wires, like
Speaker 7: like a little bit, and that would let competitors come in.
Speaker 7: And that did bring down Internet prices because that way
Speaker 7: I can be like, hey, let me in a little
Speaker 7: bit on the game, and then I am like, you know,
Speaker 7: do a little bit less, like maybe that will be better.
Speaker 7: Something similar is kind of happening in the US right
Speaker 7: now with phone companies, you maybe know, like Mint Mobile, right,
Speaker 7: like the Ryan Reynolds thing.
Speaker 2: Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
Speaker 7: Did you know that Mint's unlimited premium wireless for fifteen
Speaker 7: dollars a month is back and that is like basically
Speaker 7: the big phone companies like AT and T wouldever have
Speaker 7: extra space or whatever, and they will let other players
Speaker 7: get in.
Speaker 5: And offer a cheaper option. So that's something's like mint Mobile, the.
Speaker 1: Bigger company in this instance, they just don't want to
Speaker 1: spend the time or resources to use that last mile.
Speaker 7: Well, they have some marketing I mean, like on like
Speaker 7: the phone that it's a marketing thing, right, Like I
Speaker 7: don't know how many people like are like I saw
Speaker 7: Ryan Reynolds, but like it does allow them to like
Speaker 7: get into like more niche markets and as like, you know,
Speaker 7: as much as these companies, you know they are very big,
Speaker 7: there are markets that they want to get into, and
Speaker 7: like if that's a way to get in, like sure, so.
Speaker 1: Then say in France or some or somewhere else, do
Speaker 1: they tend to have less of these issues as far
Speaker 1: as people not having choice for internet?
Speaker 7: Do you at least it's cheaper and I mean it's cheaper,
Speaker 7: but also like you'll have like more options, and that's ideal.
Speaker 7: Like it's not saying like, oh, these companies can't exist anymore.
Speaker 7: It's like you should like play by like fair rules
Speaker 7: of the game and like a lot of these companies
Speaker 7: we know have like a lot of ways of keeping
Speaker 7: competitors out.
Speaker 5: So that's how we kind of wind up where we.
Speaker 2: Are policy wise.
Speaker 1: If you know, they give you a big pen tomorrow
Speaker 1: and you get to write up some policy for the
Speaker 1: United States.
Speaker 3: A big beautiful bill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well to fix the internet issue for me, for
Speaker 1: Noah specific, Yeah, what would I mean, like, what.
Speaker 2: Are these sorts of policies you think would help?
Speaker 1: Then, Like do you think would be more of these
Speaker 1: kind of last mile things or what?
Speaker 7: A few years ago I did a little bit of
Speaker 7: a pronoun like Tattanooga, Tennessee, and I think they're like
Speaker 7: kind of a good example of what you can do
Speaker 7: that's actually like kind of small, and like this is
Speaker 7: one where like maybe the answer is like yes, we
Speaker 7: make like the Internet of public utility.
Speaker 5: But basically they did is they had like.
Speaker 7: You know, they're electric grit or whatever, and they were like,
Speaker 7: we're going to use this to create like a public
Speaker 7: Internet that's like pretty cheap for people like ten months
Speaker 7: a month or whatever.
Speaker 10: Chattanoogaans will now be the first to have a community
Speaker 10: wide five er optic network delivering up to ten gigabits
Speaker 10: of Internet service. It's the first of its kind in
Speaker 10: the US. It will be offered to every home of
Speaker 10: business in a six hunt mile area. A study recently
Speaker 10: released by UTC finance professor Binto Lobo shows the GID
Speaker 10: network helped the Chattanooga area generate at least twenty eight
Speaker 10: hundred new jobs and close to nine hundred million dollars.
Speaker 7: And they did it, and they really had some like pushback,
Speaker 7: like one of the big telecom companies like sued them,
Speaker 7: and they did wind up with like some limits, like
Speaker 7: they weren't allowed to do this, like outside of the
Speaker 7: cydy limits.
Speaker 5: But I think like that's something that could really work.
Speaker 7: It's like, you know, a town doing this now, Yeah,
Speaker 7: problem there is like something like twenty states have laws
Speaker 7: like saying the municipalities can't do this.
Speaker 5: That is the power of lobbying. So you know, that's
Speaker 5: a tricky one.
Speaker 7: Rural broadband is a very popular thing to say politically,
Speaker 7: and there have been a lot of efforts at that.
Speaker 7: The tricky part there is sometimes these companies like get
Speaker 7: these subsidies, get these plans, and like does that mean
Speaker 7: they are building out necessarily?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 7: You know, so that kind of stuff. It's something that
Speaker 7: really has to be taken care of it every level.
Speaker 7: Like yeah, it feels to me like if we could
Speaker 7: just have these companies have to lease out at least
Speaker 7: some of theirself, like that would help a lot. Like
Speaker 7: and I'm not asking for eight internet providers, but I
Speaker 7: feel like if I just had two, like I would
Speaker 7: have exactly like I could call and be like I
Speaker 7: believe and they wouldn't be able to like, you know,
Speaker 7: you're not.
Speaker 1: That's all I want to because even if even if
Speaker 1: they gave they offered me the ten dollars horrible internet option,
Speaker 1: I would I wouldn't use it, but I would be
Speaker 1: happy that it's there.
Speaker 2: It's all. It makes me feel slightly better, all.
Speaker 1: Right, So I guess for now the best thing we
Speaker 1: can do is call and hope whoever's on the other
Speaker 1: side take some pity, and then maybe I'll be writing
Speaker 1: to the mayor about this last mile is the shame?
Speaker 2: Who should I talk to about government?
Speaker 6: Is? Like?
Speaker 3: Is anyone advocating?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 1: So we know the lobbies are part of why this
Speaker 1: is an issue.
Speaker 2: Are there any lobbies for me?
Speaker 7: I mean there aren't, Like there is some actional like
Speaker 7: in New York on like at least helping for paying
Speaker 7: like I think at the state level, there's.
Speaker 5: Some stuff going on, like it's hard.
Speaker 7: I mean, if only because like I mean, we have
Speaker 7: it like in New York we have like a giant
Speaker 7: budget shortfall right now, right and like as much as
Speaker 7: I wish that, like Zoron Number was like I need
Speaker 7: bios to also come to Flatbush, like it is not
Speaker 7: having it right now. So I think, like I mean,
Speaker 7: I do, and maybe this is like I guess my
Speaker 7: dad was like this, I really do check to see
Speaker 7: if I have other options, like pretty regularly, like I
Speaker 7: have a couple of months ago, like I saw like
Speaker 7: a Verizon truck outside, Do I go ask him, like,
Speaker 7: are you gonna call?
Speaker 4: It's like the building next door they are like the
Speaker 4: apartment upstairs will take years.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but yeah, otherwise I think, just like call and
Speaker 7: like I don't know, should you be nice, should you.
Speaker 5: Threaten to leave? Yeah? Try and like get the other.
Speaker 7: Person's vibe and maybe they're having a good day and
Speaker 7: then you can have a year of a discount.
Speaker 5: Before it's bad again.
Speaker 1: And I did make my wife add me as an
Speaker 1: authorized user of the account, so I don't need to
Speaker 1: hide my anymore change to be like vague when I'm saying, like,
Speaker 1: do you have the account?
Speaker 2: Is Julia? Yes, I'm calling on behalf. Yeah, well, thank you, Emily.
Speaker 2: This is great.
Speaker 1: I can't say I feel better about the situation, but
Speaker 1: at least I know something more.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: We're not not doing something so simple and easy.
Speaker 5: It does just suck.
Speaker 1: That doesn't make feel letter. Maybe I'll move to Chattanooga.
Speaker 7: Yeah, maybe, I mean it's probably nice there.
Speaker 2: I'll get some space.
Speaker 1: So this conversation was very informative, validating, and pretty disappointing
Speaker 1: as far as the state of my internet situation. And
Speaker 1: then guess what happened while I was editing this episode together.
Speaker 2: My internet went out.
Speaker 1: So I did what I've done many times before and
Speaker 1: caught up my ISP.
Speaker 6: Welcome to me.
Speaker 7: This column may be recorded.
Speaker 6: How can I help you today?
Speaker 1: My internet is kind of going in and out today,
Speaker 1: and I want to make.
Speaker 2: Sure it's fixed.
Speaker 1: And I would love to get a, you know, any
Speaker 1: sort of reimbursement because now I have to redo a
Speaker 1: bunch of work and I'm a worried, you know, I
Speaker 1: won't be able to get my work done today.
Speaker 2: I might lose my job. I was extremely frustrated.
Speaker 1: I've done this song and dance dozens of times and
Speaker 1: received pretty much nothing in return.
Speaker 6: I'm just plased to tell you I'm very sorry about
Speaker 6: what happened. I know he wants to be very portating
Speaker 6: for you. Yeah, not to worry.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do my best much, but this time was different.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna apply you a credit and it's gonna view
Speaker 6: the same amount of credits for five years. Your bill
Speaker 6: is going to be a object onto it dollars for
Speaker 6: the same internet speed you have right now?
Speaker 2: Okay, so lady, are.
Speaker 6: You some much that the order for you and everything
Speaker 6: is good to Is there anything else of you that's
Speaker 6: just you?
Speaker 2: I know that's all. Thank you.
Speaker 6: You're welcome, sir. It was a pleasure to speak with
Speaker 6: you today. Make God bless you and hold you up
Speaker 6: on the book.
Speaker 1: So maybe a competitor is moving into my neighborhood. Is
Speaker 1: five G wireless or Ryan Reynolds taking over? I'm not
Speaker 1: quite sure. But to the benevolent customer service king on
Speaker 1: the other side of the line this time, no such donation.
Speaker 1: Salutes you, thank you for your services.
Speaker 7: Hows hows hows how's thanks?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 1: No, Such Thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our
Speaker 1: executive producers are Kid Osbourne and Mangesh Hotz, a Cadur.
Speaker 1: This show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and
Speaker 1: Devin Joseph Theman. Credit song by Manny Fidel. Our guests
Speaker 1: this week are Emily Stewart and Fill and co host
Speaker 1: Rachel Ascanazi. Visit No Such Thing dot Show to subscribe
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Speaker 1: Thanks.
Speaker 10: He's He's, He's such Thing.