WEBVTT - I Know This Much Is True (Part 5) 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.600 Folks, we have made it to the end of a marathon. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.879 This is the conclusion of the Birds Twins Saga. So 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.080 if you've made it this far part five, congratulations. Let's 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.239 get straight into it. This is Popcorn Book Club for 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.279 my Heart Radio, and we're talking Wally Lambs. I know 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.159 this much is true. Here we go. Welcome back to 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.760 Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danish Schwartz and as always I'm 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.480 joined by Croma Aqa, Jennifer Right, Tan Tran, and Melissa 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.960 Hunter and today we are wrapping up The Birds e 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.800 Saga with I Know This Much is True the final 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.640 chapters Colin the final chapters, Oh God, is there a 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.479 word for saga that's more saga than saga? Because this 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.880 feels like that are I will just say our group 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.240 chat this morning was was popping off. It feels appropriate 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.320 to say with all of our thoughts that we couldn't 0:00:53.360 --> 0:01:00.640 wait to share second and I had fifty messages. The 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.280 thing that I kept like thinking about as I read 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.280 this was how smart it was that we divided this 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:10.360 up into sceptions, because how would anyone talk about this 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.480 book entirely? Like there's too much in fifteen chapters? I 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.240 don't know if we can successfully. There's way too much 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.080 going on. I will say, I'm so glad we're done 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:26.600 with this book. Um, I do feel like so much 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.720 of the conclusion was set up really perfectly as evidence 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.160 by the fact that we were able to make predictions 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.160 it turned out to be true. Like Karama pointed out 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.640 that maybe he was going to turn out to be 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.319 related to Ralph and they had the same father, And 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.319 I was wrong about the same father part, but I 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.760 was correct about them being related, and the birds twins 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.360 secretly being mixed and their mother being ashamed of that, 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:59.400 and and Jennifer, you predicted ending up with death, which 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.320 I was, well, it would not happen. I really didn't 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.840 think it was going to go there. I was so mad. Look, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.000 I was less mad than I expected to be. I 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.000 think one of the things that I did like about 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.000 this book was I think it really grappled with toxic 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.680 masculinity before that was a thing a lot of people 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.799 were talking about. And I'm sure we all have very 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.400 flowed men in our lives. And my my hope isn't 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.760 that I'll write them off entirely. My hope is that 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.079 they'll get therapy and they'll learn to talk about their 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.040 feelings and they'll evolve and become better people. And it 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.359 seems like, you know, Dominant really tried to do that, 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.959 and he sort of saw through his grandfather and through 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.040 Ray what happens if you live a life dedicated to 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.880 being a tough guy, um and what happens is you 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.880 end up alone and maybe lose a limb in the process. So, 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.400 you know what, those those are great lessons for him 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.399 to learn. Like, I'm glad he went to you could 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.160 Tell and really worked on himself, and maybe he'll be 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.280 able to have better relationships now that that's hopeful. Yeah, 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.520 I will say I did like that. I felt that 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.680 Dominic's growth was real. Like a lot of books, I 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.959 feel like at the end, it's just like and I changed, 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.400 I'm better now. But I like that it actually showed 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.600 him like doing the actual work of going to therapy 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.720 and like revisiting really hard moments from his past and 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:32.520 uncovering trauma and you know, revisiting his grandfather's story and 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.760 getting the right messages out of it. So I was like, Okay, 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.320 I like that our character through all of this is 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.520 growing and learning and changing. But what I didn't love 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.920 is that the way the ending was structured, it felt 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.640 like you went to therapy. Here's your reward, woman, a 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.720 million dollars. Like I also say, they were like, and 0:03:55.000 --> 0:04:00.560 you're done with therapy, Like that's never therapy is scared 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.760 ongoing process. And the end of it that he like 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.400 he's absolved of all of his racism and all of 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:13.680 his like white passing privilege and caplicity and sexism and 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.719 sexism like that bothered me. That I love that it 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:20.719 tackled toxic masculinity, but that like neat little bow tie 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.200 at the end of it that also like kind of 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:28.080 wipes away any of his other transgressions. Was like, Wally, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.040 this is too easy. Yeah, I can all collectively agree 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:37.159 that Dominic did not deserve a million dollars. No, I 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.880 think we're trying on the group chat that it would 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.719 have been something if he had just given it back 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.160 to the tribe or given it to Ralph like and 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:54.280 just maintained his because he didn't. He didn't deserve that money. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.599 I think he deserved to find out who his father was, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.520 but he didn't deserve to all of a sudden benefit 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:05.679 from the one privilege this tribe will ever get after 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:10.960 living a life of prejudice and like it feels crazy 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.320 and it's importantly I deserved to know who his father was. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:20.520 And I will say that is the one thing I 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.159 love a bow with the narrative, but the money is 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.520 not for the person who not only benefited from his 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.720 white passing privilege and you know the systems of white supremacy, 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:39.080 but like actively wielded them as weapons specifically again yes 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.600 twice what is a child and then as an adult 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.640 specifically against the drink waters and didn't really do much 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.200 to be like anti racist about it at all. Like 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.440 his progress was him finding out that his father was 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.680 a drink water and then he was like, Okay, things 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:01.320 are good. I can't be ad like you have a 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.719 you have a black friend, but you have a black dad. 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.080 I do want to say we are starting at the 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.600 very end that happened in those seventeen chapters. I think 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:17.560 that's a good point. Can I just say one thing, Karama, 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.360 was it Did you look at the end and say 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.719 that you saw that The last sentence was I know 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.640 this much is true. For some reason, so much time 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:26.880 has passed that I thought you were joking. So then 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.520 when I saw it, when I saw it, in real time. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.880 I was like, this should be illegal, that you should 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.320 you should not be allowed to end a book with 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:41.280 the title of I just just like I can't believe, 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:46.040 you know. I also say it twice in the books 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.960 in Prospering Story and then at the very end, and 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.120 the first time I was like okay, But then I 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.360 remembered that I had already seen it, and I was like, wait, 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.120 what you know that while he really thought he was 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:04.360 doing something with that, he was like, yeah, I did 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.400 like a little typing face. I did like my impression 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:12.160 of Wally smugly finishing this book and apt for the listeners, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.400 it is so interesting how the whole big secret of 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.160 Thomas and his mom like playing dress up and how 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.040 and he was dressing like a woman and like and 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:35.200 that it was that was the worst of raise abuse, 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:41.480 was seeing Thomas literally dressed as a woman. And I 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.800 think it's Thomas and Dominic at least throughout the book 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.360 do feel like the feminine and the masculine, and then 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.440 Dominic sort of absorbs or like releases some of that 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:58.440 toxic masculine typical masculine energy, and it absorbs some of 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.720 Thomas's sweet sweetness as they always say, at the sweetness, 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.680 that's such an important observation that that is the main 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:09.400 secret that that Dominic has been holding onto all this time, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.920 that he he has to build up to even be 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.240 able to acknowledge to himself, which to me, like reading 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.480 the book, like so much awful stuff happened with abuse, 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.880 it was almost like, wait, this was the worst thing 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.040 that happened, like a little boy and his mom playing 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.960 dress up. But that's it. It embodied everything so awful 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.440 and shameful to to Dominic one the idea that he 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.960 was like excluded that they were doing this thing and 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.880 he didn't want to do it, but also was excluded 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.120 that he was the guard dog that you know, he 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.679 was supposed to protect Thomas and and his mother from ray. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:51.160 That he failed at that, that he was unable to 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.559 protect them. Also trashed the house the house, But it 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.160 was just a little boy, I mean he yeah, he 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.080 should never shon where he had to protect them, No, 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:06.720 I I know, absolutely, But I think like he he 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.600 absorbs that failure as a failure on his part and 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.439 the shame of it, and then also then of course 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.960 raised horrific violence against his mother and Thomas. I'd like, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:22.120 there's so much like internalized shame and anger towards Ray, 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.360 but also anger and shame towards Thomas for doing that 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.000 in the first place. I mean, I think, um, one 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.520 part that really struck me was that Ray talks later 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:35.920 about how he thought he was doing something good, that 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:37.960 you know, he'd been in two wars. All he had 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:39.920 seen is that the world is a really tough place. 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.480 And um, all I can do for these two young 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.520 boys is toughen them up as much as possible. And 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.680 you know, I still think that as a society we 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:55.080 take away little boy's sweetness really really quickly, that we 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.320 try to make them be big and tough and big 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.079 strong men. Um, like really from the time they're five 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.480 or six years old, and um, and that makes me 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:08.520 really really sad, I think. And also like it's it 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.040 is said that like we we take a lot of 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.200 boy sweetness away and then you know, and not in 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.560 but like encourage when that toxic masculinity is in play 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.760 with like boys will be boys and like that sort 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.079 of language that also doesn't allow for sweetness or softness 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.640 or tenderness. Well, and it also I mean, I know 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.680 we're skipping ahead to this scene, but like when dominic 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:37.600 trashes the kitchen like destroys it, and Ray doesn't flinch 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.400 at that. He's not upset about that at all, because 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.880 it is a sort of like boys will be masculin 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:48.359 a masculine way of acting out and was so fixated 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.120 on what was happening upstairs, um like a sweet tea. Part. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.360 I think that I've found very compelling is having a 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.920 villain that is multifaceted in the sense that he seems 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.520 like a person that could it. Because when you're reading 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.200 a book, it's very easy. No one reads Harry Potter 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.400 and it's like, oh, I see myself in Baltimore. I'm 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.040 you know what I mean, Like like no one went 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:16.440 like no one is you know, speak for yourself, Dana, 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:18.720 but you know what I mean, Like no one reads 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.080 like books like that, where it's like it's very easy 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.480 to dismiss a villain as all bad and then you 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.960 just don't have to reckon with it at all. You 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.360 can just lift your hands and be like, well, I'm 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.479 not that. But a character like Ray who is abusive 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.520 but in a way that the system encourages, Like I 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.760 hope that maybe men who read this are forced to 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.000 like reckon with some of the things they've done wrong, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.000 because it's like, you can't dismiss Ray as just a 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.800 one dimensional villain, Like, yeah, he's also a man who 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.960 you know, plants flowers on a grave and like tries 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.199 to and tried to tried to be a good father 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.600 to these boys but failed in horrific ways. So like, 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.640 I like a villain that you can't just dismiss out 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.720 of hand. And he's like, well, I'm not like that, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.720 so I don't need to absorb these messages or this lection. 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.640 Like I think that's so much more effective to me, 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:13.080 Like his gray areas make make it easier to to 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:21.600 reckon with his his message areas. I think that it's 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.360 interesting that Ray is very gray even before we find 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:29.079 out his like sort of tragic backstory. And it's not 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.640 like you use that to make him suddenly okay. It's 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:36.160 that he when he opens up, you find this out 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.600 about him, But prior to that, he had already sort 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:40.640 of started to reckon with the fact that maybe some 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.280 of the things that he thought were black and white 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.440 were much more gray. And the fact of the matter is, 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.719 like he is Dominic's father, and by the end of 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.680 the book, he's not correcting people. It's like, yeah, he sucked, 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.640 and some fathers are abusive and some fathers are awful, 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.760 but like, yeah, the man who is your father from 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.080 the time you are an infant child or like two 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.480 years old to your entire life, Like, sorry, that's your dad. Yeah, 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.600 well it is so I mean again, I know we're 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.839 jumping all over the place, but the shave, the intimacy 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:16.199 of the shaving. What happened to Ray? Okay, yeah, that's good. Yeah, Jenny, Jennifer, 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.800 give us a little give us a little Ray background. Okay. 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:29.960 So um at Thomas's funeral? Um, oh Thomas. Yeah, we 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.920 kind of talk. Okay, really think we've mentioned Thomas dying earlier, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.280 as we also skipped over the ray. Also, Thomas was 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.760 being raped in jail. Yeah, j the mental institution, and 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.320 it was it was it was Ralph who, Ralph who, 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.960 in spite of everything that Dominic did to him, Ralph 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.040 makes the call and says, get your brother tested for HIV. 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.920 We find out that there's an HIV epidemic at this 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.319 hospital because the mean guard who wasn't lighting Thomas's cigarette 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.720 because he has a awful power trip, was sexually abusing 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:07.400 the inmates. Uh Thomas uh get uses that and uses 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.280 the bruises that he had had the night that that 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.520 he dropped Uh Thomas off. Sorry, Dominic used that. Uh. 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.520 He gets Dominic out even though Thomas out sorry, even 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:23.680 though I'm fortunately Thomas is HIV negative. But the very 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.720 night that he gets him out, he puts him in 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.240 a halfway home. The halfway home loses him at two 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.800 in the morning, and uh Thomas went to the falls 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.800 and committed what looks like suicide. Yeah. I will say 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.040 that when Ralph is like, hey, you need to get 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.080 your brother tested for HIV, I was like, jo, Bingo, 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.680 here we go. That's what I was waiting for. And 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.480 I think it's really important to know that even though 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.240 at this point Dominic isn't therapy, he's starting to learn 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.400 how to grapple with his immense anger and hatred and 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:03.520 sort of talks this. Uh he gets this memo from Ralph, 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.400 drinkwater in his car like in a very secret agent way, 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.600 and then decides the best course of action with this 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.080 memo that proves that there is an epidemic of HIV 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.360 A disease. At this point, it's nineteen nine or one, 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.360 where they have very little understanding it is basically a 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.720 death sentence in a way that it's not in the 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.640 same way. Now he decides, oh, I'm going to use 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.720 this to get to my brother out, not to expose 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.680 the facility for the terrors that are happening there. Like 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.160 if the if Dwayne Taylor, who's the cowboy who wouldn't 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.720 like the cigarette and is raping the inmates, Uh, if 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.840 he had not been gorn in in a bathroom, then 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.120 they probably wouldn't have stopped him. Kind of just would 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.480 have been Thomas gets out and it gets swept under 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.560 the rug. It kind of felt similar to the way 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:57.800 that they catch the child pornography of Ralph, where it's like, yeah, 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.640 you didn't do that. That was you didn't all of anything. 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.000 You weren't like, Hey, it's kind of weird that this 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.720 orphan child is living with this creepy adult. I'm gonna 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.240 call someone. It just sort of like, Oh, that's really 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.480 lucky that someone else caught this. Um. Yeah, I'd like 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.680 to think that Ralph killed that guard. Yeah, yeah, I 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:23.560 mean that seems to indicate that, but I actually Ralph 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.320 does work nights, which we know from the fact that 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.520 when Dominic brought Thomas in there and he mopped up 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.640 the urine and Dwayne the cowboy is not supposed to 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.520 be there at night, so I feel like there is 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:42.560 some evidence. Yeah. Um, I think Ralph, as a survivor 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.040 of abuse maybe really did not like see it seeing 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.080 it happen to anybody else and just took that problem 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.400 into his own hands and to his own cousin who 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.720 he knew was his cousin. And also he and Thomas 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:58.040 had a sweet relationship. I don't think, uh, it wasn't 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.400 about Dominic ever, like I think in spite of Dominic, 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:06.080 he was just he was just protecting Thomas. UM. But yeah, 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.760 and then Lisa Shaeffer, I think it's important to note 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.920 that she was like, you're arrogant, Dominic, be careful like 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:14.840 this is and he's like, what do you mean, I'm arrogant, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.760 So he's still like and then he slightly his arrogance 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.439 of like that Thomas will be fine. They have that 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:27.560 weird experience at McDonald's, and you know, with Leo and Thomas, 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:33.199 it's kind of their last day together, UM, and it 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:38.080 is something that is really tragic that um Dominic sort 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.760 of overestimated his ability to UM help his brother or 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.480 control his brother. But but I do think sort of 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.679 the one gift that Wally and Near in writing the 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.760 story gives to Dominic is that he did put him 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:58.080 in the halfway home. So like the responsibility isn't entirely 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.359 Thomas doesn't have to feel like it fault that way, 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.199 like he did make that We're like, yeah, you they 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.119 they would have they should have been more capable, and 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.160 it wasn't like Dominic was directly responsible in that way, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.160 which I do feel like, I think it's I think 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.440 it's more that it Dominic is still on his journey 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.480 and he doesn't kind of see that he is emotionally. 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.240 I don't think anyone would fault Dominic for what happened 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.440 to Thomas. But it is just a part, a part 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:33.000 of the soup of it all the tragedy. The real 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:37.399 culprit is budget cuts. Yeah, yes, yeah, I just was 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.240 gonna bring up, like what Melissa was saying about um 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.040 chefferd mentioning his arrogance. It's like something that is like 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.960 a running thread throughout this book is that like even 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:52.080 Dominico has these delusions of grandeur, and Dr Patel makes 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.040 a dominant reckon with that too, and it's like tied 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.639 to the fact that both Dominic and Dominico feel like 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.840 victims of their Sir Him stance and that everyone is 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.440 against them and that they need to be owed these 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:10.000 apologies and that they have been that they were born 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.639 these men that should have been entitled to more and 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.240 didn't get that, and so these delusions of grandeur are 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.200 like he's finally Dominic is finally starting to chip away 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.400 at the fact that like he can't solve everything and 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.800 not everything not everyone is out to put him in 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.720 a place where he has to solve everything, and it's 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:34.280 it's an interesting contrast to like Thomas, who is obviously schizophrenic. 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.440 His delusions of grandeur are the ones that I think 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.520 people would recognize as delusions of grandeur, which is like 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.840 the CIA is hunting me or whatever his delusions were, 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.840 where Dominic's is more narcissistic in the sense of like 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.720 I failed here and I'm controlling it, like or even 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.240 where it looks self effacing, it's like, no, you don't 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.159 have There's so much, so many references to martyrs in 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.080 the book. I mean, you know, one that released it 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:06.000 out to me was in Prospering story Violetta, who she 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:11.679 she was modeling this biblical martyr Um who went blind. 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.040 I believe, and I think, you know, it is really 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.080 interesting that like there are these sort of martyr complexes 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.840 that people have, like their actual martyrs, and like Thomas 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.440 did a like really intense murder thing of cutting off 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.480 his hand. But I feel like Dominic and Dominico both 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.560 have these martyr complexes, which is very different because it's 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.879 not actual, you know, it's it's really reckoning with that 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:48.760 and releasing that. You're listening to Popcorn book Club from 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:57.040 my Heart Radio and we'll be back right after the break. Okay, 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.800 we're back with Popcorn book Club. So I feel like 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.280 with that not fully covered, but as much as you 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.800 can in this limited time, Jennifer, will you go back 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:13.359 to raise story so more thing about Thomas? Yes, sorry, 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.160 I just found it really tragic that Thomas's last meal 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.919 on earth was a happy meal, and like he was 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.120 insistent that he get a happy meal. And it reminded 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:24.919 me of when he had asked for the water from 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.159 the river so that he could cleanse his brain because 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.879 he said that he was unclean and that he thought 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.199 that using the water from the river is like a 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.320 holy water would be able to cleanse his brain. And 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:37.880 it felt like the happy meal was his last sort 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.920 of ditch effort to try and be happy. And I 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.560 cried like a little bit. Okay, one more tiny thing 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:48.360 about Thomas. I'm so sorry um the fact that um 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.040 at the beginning of the book, when he when Dominic 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.080 was like, don't reattach the hand because Thomas doesn't want that. 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.400 He wants that autonomy and authority. I like, I don't 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:04.040 like it, but it's a I guess, a slight positive. 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.800 There's no way to phrase this. A thing to notice 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:09.760 about the journey is the way he goes out is 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.440 at least on his terms. It's not a disease that 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:16.400 someone abused him and gave him. He has been suffering 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:21.440 and and does this traumatic thing to himself and hurts him. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:25.320 But like as Dominic commented with the hand, like that 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:27.840 was at least he had so many choices taken away 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:29.600 from him. At least he had like a tiny bit 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.879 of agency in that. So even you know, I in 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.160 the choice right, like in a novel that the author 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.720 gets to choose how a character anything that happens to them, 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:40.920 and it's like, yeah, if he wants Thomas to die, 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.080 he could have had him die of aids and that whatever. 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:48.560 But I I like that it mirrors that sense of tragedy, 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.920 but but giving him a sense of autonomy at the end. 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.679 And I think autonomy is something that the book's been 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.680 dealing with since the very first page that this begins 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.960 with the librarian from the library for Thomas cut off 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.040 his hand, coming to Dominic and saying, hey, was this 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.120 my fault? I just need to know that this wasn't 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:12.359 mindful and um, obviously that that seems crazy. No, the 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:17.120 librarian was just doing her job. It had grander exactly, Yes, 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:21.000 But everybody seems to feel that way throughout the book, 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.199 that they are responsible for things that they may or 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:29.040 may not have been responsible for, and Dominic certainly feels 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.879 that way with regard to Thomas. And I think that 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:37.359 seguents nicely into what happens at Thomas's funeral. Um. So 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:41.920 Thomas has um a funeral that a lot of people 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:45.600 show up for, which is really nice that um that 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:49.120 dess his family shows up for it as well. Um, 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.960 it's a well attended funeral. And Ralph Ralph stayed in 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:55.119 his car, but he was Ralph stayed, but Ralph was 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:59.879 there yep. And then afterwards at the memorial at their house, 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:05.399 um Dominic gets very very angry at Ray and talks 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:08.720 about how they bullied Thomas into this, that they were 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:12.359 both responsible, that that this is a victory day for 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:14.960 them because they get to be big, tough guys and 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:21.760 they were bullying Thomas every chance they could and Ray, Um, 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:25.520 Ray has this moment where he becomes very defensive and 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:29.000 he says that the day that he adopted them, the 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:31.240 judge said that he was a good man. That like 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:34.520 that he was taking on two little boys and that 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:38.000