Speaker 1: Folks, we have made it to the end of a marathon.
Speaker 1: This is the conclusion of the Birds Twins Saga. So
Speaker 1: if you've made it this far part five, congratulations. Let's
Speaker 1: get straight into it. This is Popcorn Book Club for
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, and we're talking Wally Lambs. I know
Speaker 1: this much is true. Here we go. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danish Schwartz and as always I'm
Speaker 1: joined by Croma Aqa, Jennifer Right, Tan Tran, and Melissa
Speaker 1: Hunter and today we are wrapping up The Birds e
Speaker 1: Saga with I Know This Much is True the final
Speaker 1: chapters Colin the final chapters, Oh God, is there a
Speaker 1: word for saga that's more saga than saga? Because this
Speaker 1: feels like that are I will just say our group
Speaker 1: chat this morning was was popping off. It feels appropriate
Speaker 1: to say with all of our thoughts that we couldn't
Speaker 1: wait to share second and I had fifty messages. The
Speaker 1: thing that I kept like thinking about as I read
Speaker 1: this was how smart it was that we divided this
Speaker 1: up into sceptions, because how would anyone talk about this
Speaker 1: book entirely? Like there's too much in fifteen chapters? I
Speaker 1: don't know if we can successfully. There's way too much
Speaker 1: going on. I will say, I'm so glad we're done
Speaker 1: with this book. Um, I do feel like so much
Speaker 1: of the conclusion was set up really perfectly as evidence
Speaker 1: by the fact that we were able to make predictions
Speaker 1: it turned out to be true. Like Karama pointed out
Speaker 1: that maybe he was going to turn out to be
Speaker 1: related to Ralph and they had the same father, And
Speaker 1: I was wrong about the same father part, but I
Speaker 1: was correct about them being related, and the birds twins
Speaker 1: secretly being mixed and their mother being ashamed of that,
Speaker 1: and and Jennifer, you predicted ending up with death, which
Speaker 1: I was, well, it would not happen. I really didn't
Speaker 1: think it was going to go there. I was so mad. Look,
Speaker 1: I was less mad than I expected to be. I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that I did like about
Speaker 1: this book was I think it really grappled with toxic
Speaker 1: masculinity before that was a thing a lot of people
Speaker 1: were talking about. And I'm sure we all have very
Speaker 1: flowed men in our lives. And my my hope isn't
Speaker 1: that I'll write them off entirely. My hope is that
Speaker 1: they'll get therapy and they'll learn to talk about their
Speaker 1: feelings and they'll evolve and become better people. And it
Speaker 1: seems like, you know, Dominant really tried to do that,
Speaker 1: and he sort of saw through his grandfather and through
Speaker 1: Ray what happens if you live a life dedicated to
Speaker 1: being a tough guy, um and what happens is you
Speaker 1: end up alone and maybe lose a limb in the process. So,
Speaker 1: you know what, those those are great lessons for him
Speaker 1: to learn. Like, I'm glad he went to you could
Speaker 1: Tell and really worked on himself, and maybe he'll be
Speaker 1: able to have better relationships now that that's hopeful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I will say I did like that. I felt that
Speaker 1: Dominic's growth was real. Like a lot of books, I
Speaker 1: feel like at the end, it's just like and I changed,
Speaker 1: I'm better now. But I like that it actually showed
Speaker 1: him like doing the actual work of going to therapy
Speaker 1: and like revisiting really hard moments from his past and
Speaker 1: uncovering trauma and you know, revisiting his grandfather's story and
Speaker 1: getting the right messages out of it. So I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I like that our character through all of this is
Speaker 1: growing and learning and changing. But what I didn't love
Speaker 1: is that the way the ending was structured, it felt
Speaker 1: like you went to therapy. Here's your reward, woman, a
Speaker 1: million dollars. Like I also say, they were like, and
Speaker 1: you're done with therapy, Like that's never therapy is scared
Speaker 1: ongoing process. And the end of it that he like
Speaker 1: he's absolved of all of his racism and all of
Speaker 1: his like white passing privilege and caplicity and sexism and
Speaker 1: sexism like that bothered me. That I love that it
Speaker 1: tackled toxic masculinity, but that like neat little bow tie
Speaker 1: at the end of it that also like kind of
Speaker 1: wipes away any of his other transgressions. Was like, Wally,
Speaker 1: this is too easy. Yeah, I can all collectively agree
Speaker 1: that Dominic did not deserve a million dollars. No, I
Speaker 1: think we're trying on the group chat that it would
Speaker 1: have been something if he had just given it back
Speaker 1: to the tribe or given it to Ralph like and
Speaker 1: just maintained his because he didn't. He didn't deserve that money.
Speaker 1: I think he deserved to find out who his father was,
Speaker 1: but he didn't deserve to all of a sudden benefit
Speaker 1: from the one privilege this tribe will ever get after
Speaker 1: living a life of prejudice and like it feels crazy
Speaker 1: and it's importantly I deserved to know who his father was.
Speaker 1: And I will say that is the one thing I
Speaker 1: love a bow with the narrative, but the money is
Speaker 1: not for the person who not only benefited from his
Speaker 1: white passing privilege and you know the systems of white supremacy,
Speaker 1: but like actively wielded them as weapons specifically again yes
Speaker 1: twice what is a child and then as an adult
Speaker 1: specifically against the drink waters and didn't really do much
Speaker 1: to be like anti racist about it at all. Like
Speaker 1: his progress was him finding out that his father was
Speaker 1: a drink water and then he was like, Okay, things
Speaker 1: are good. I can't be ad like you have a
Speaker 1: you have a black friend, but you have a black dad.
Speaker 1: I do want to say we are starting at the
Speaker 1: very end that happened in those seventeen chapters. I think
Speaker 1: that's a good point. Can I just say one thing, Karama,
Speaker 1: was it Did you look at the end and say
Speaker 1: that you saw that The last sentence was I know
Speaker 1: this much is true. For some reason, so much time
Speaker 1: has passed that I thought you were joking. So then
Speaker 1: when I saw it, when I saw it, in real time.
Speaker 1: I was like, this should be illegal, that you should
Speaker 1: you should not be allowed to end a book with
Speaker 1: the title of I just just like I can't believe,
Speaker 1: you know. I also say it twice in the books
Speaker 1: in Prospering Story and then at the very end, and
Speaker 1: the first time I was like okay, But then I
Speaker 1: remembered that I had already seen it, and I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: what you know that while he really thought he was
Speaker 1: doing something with that, he was like, yeah, I did
Speaker 1: like a little typing face. I did like my impression
Speaker 1: of Wally smugly finishing this book and apt for the listeners,
Speaker 1: it is so interesting how the whole big secret of
Speaker 1: Thomas and his mom like playing dress up and how
Speaker 1: and he was dressing like a woman and like and
Speaker 1: that it was that was the worst of raise abuse,
Speaker 1: was seeing Thomas literally dressed as a woman. And I
Speaker 1: think it's Thomas and Dominic at least throughout the book
Speaker 1: do feel like the feminine and the masculine, and then
Speaker 1: Dominic sort of absorbs or like releases some of that
Speaker 1: toxic masculine typical masculine energy, and it absorbs some of
Speaker 1: Thomas's sweet sweetness as they always say, at the sweetness,
Speaker 1: that's such an important observation that that is the main
Speaker 1: secret that that Dominic has been holding onto all this time,
Speaker 1: that he he has to build up to even be
Speaker 1: able to acknowledge to himself, which to me, like reading
Speaker 1: the book, like so much awful stuff happened with abuse,
Speaker 1: it was almost like, wait, this was the worst thing
Speaker 1: that happened, like a little boy and his mom playing
Speaker 1: dress up. But that's it. It embodied everything so awful
Speaker 1: and shameful to to Dominic one the idea that he
Speaker 1: was like excluded that they were doing this thing and
Speaker 1: he didn't want to do it, but also was excluded
Speaker 1: that he was the guard dog that you know, he
Speaker 1: was supposed to protect Thomas and and his mother from ray.
Speaker 1: That he failed at that, that he was unable to
Speaker 1: protect them. Also trashed the house the house, But it
Speaker 1: was just a little boy, I mean he yeah, he
Speaker 1: should never shon where he had to protect them, No,
Speaker 1: I I know, absolutely, But I think like he he
Speaker 1: absorbs that failure as a failure on his part and
Speaker 1: the shame of it, and then also then of course
Speaker 1: raised horrific violence against his mother and Thomas. I'd like,
Speaker 1: there's so much like internalized shame and anger towards Ray,
Speaker 1: but also anger and shame towards Thomas for doing that
Speaker 1: in the first place. I mean, I think, um, one
Speaker 1: part that really struck me was that Ray talks later
Speaker 1: about how he thought he was doing something good, that
Speaker 1: you know, he'd been in two wars. All he had
Speaker 1: seen is that the world is a really tough place.
Speaker 1: And um, all I can do for these two young
Speaker 1: boys is toughen them up as much as possible. And
Speaker 1: you know, I still think that as a society we
Speaker 1: take away little boy's sweetness really really quickly, that we
Speaker 1: try to make them be big and tough and big
Speaker 1: strong men. Um, like really from the time they're five
Speaker 1: or six years old, and um, and that makes me
Speaker 1: really really sad, I think. And also like it's it
Speaker 1: is said that like we we take a lot of
Speaker 1: boy sweetness away and then you know, and not in
Speaker 1: but like encourage when that toxic masculinity is in play
Speaker 1: with like boys will be boys and like that sort
Speaker 1: of language that also doesn't allow for sweetness or softness
Speaker 1: or tenderness. Well, and it also I mean, I know
Speaker 1: we're skipping ahead to this scene, but like when dominic
Speaker 1: trashes the kitchen like destroys it, and Ray doesn't flinch
Speaker 1: at that. He's not upset about that at all, because
Speaker 1: it is a sort of like boys will be masculin
Speaker 1: a masculine way of acting out and was so fixated
Speaker 1: on what was happening upstairs, um like a sweet tea. Part.
Speaker 1: I think that I've found very compelling is having a
Speaker 1: villain that is multifaceted in the sense that he seems
Speaker 1: like a person that could it. Because when you're reading
Speaker 1: a book, it's very easy. No one reads Harry Potter
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, I see myself in Baltimore. I'm
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like like no one went
Speaker 1: like no one is you know, speak for yourself, Dana,
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, Like no one reads
Speaker 1: like books like that, where it's like it's very easy
Speaker 1: to dismiss a villain as all bad and then you
Speaker 1: just don't have to reckon with it at all. You
Speaker 1: can just lift your hands and be like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not that. But a character like Ray who is abusive
Speaker 1: but in a way that the system encourages, Like I
Speaker 1: hope that maybe men who read this are forced to
Speaker 1: like reckon with some of the things they've done wrong,
Speaker 1: because it's like, you can't dismiss Ray as just a
Speaker 1: one dimensional villain, Like, yeah, he's also a man who
Speaker 1: you know, plants flowers on a grave and like tries
Speaker 1: to and tried to tried to be a good father
Speaker 1: to these boys but failed in horrific ways. So like,
Speaker 1: I like a villain that you can't just dismiss out
Speaker 1: of hand. And he's like, well, I'm not like that,
Speaker 1: so I don't need to absorb these messages or this lection.
Speaker 1: Like I think that's so much more effective to me,
Speaker 1: Like his gray areas make make it easier to to
Speaker 1: reckon with his his message areas. I think that it's
Speaker 1: interesting that Ray is very gray even before we find
Speaker 1: out his like sort of tragic backstory. And it's not
Speaker 1: like you use that to make him suddenly okay. It's
Speaker 1: that he when he opens up, you find this out
Speaker 1: about him, But prior to that, he had already sort
Speaker 1: of started to reckon with the fact that maybe some
Speaker 1: of the things that he thought were black and white
Speaker 1: were much more gray. And the fact of the matter is,
Speaker 1: like he is Dominic's father, and by the end of
Speaker 1: the book, he's not correcting people. It's like, yeah, he sucked,
Speaker 1: and some fathers are abusive and some fathers are awful,
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, the man who is your father from
Speaker 1: the time you are an infant child or like two
Speaker 1: years old to your entire life, Like, sorry, that's your dad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it is so I mean again, I know we're
Speaker 1: jumping all over the place, but the shave, the intimacy
Speaker 1: of the shaving. What happened to Ray? Okay, yeah, that's good. Yeah, Jenny, Jennifer,
Speaker 1: give us a little give us a little Ray background. Okay.
Speaker 1: So um at Thomas's funeral? Um, oh Thomas. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: kind of talk. Okay, really think we've mentioned Thomas dying earlier,
Speaker 1: as we also skipped over the ray. Also, Thomas was
Speaker 1: being raped in jail. Yeah, j the mental institution, and
Speaker 1: it was it was it was Ralph who, Ralph who,
Speaker 1: in spite of everything that Dominic did to him, Ralph
Speaker 1: makes the call and says, get your brother tested for HIV.
Speaker 1: We find out that there's an HIV epidemic at this
Speaker 1: hospital because the mean guard who wasn't lighting Thomas's cigarette
Speaker 1: because he has a awful power trip, was sexually abusing
Speaker 1: the inmates. Uh Thomas uh get uses that and uses
Speaker 1: the bruises that he had had the night that that
Speaker 1: he dropped Uh Thomas off. Sorry, Dominic used that. Uh.
Speaker 1: He gets Dominic out even though Thomas out sorry, even
Speaker 1: though I'm fortunately Thomas is HIV negative. But the very
Speaker 1: night that he gets him out, he puts him in
Speaker 1: a halfway home. The halfway home loses him at two
Speaker 1: in the morning, and uh Thomas went to the falls
Speaker 1: and committed what looks like suicide. Yeah. I will say
Speaker 1: that when Ralph is like, hey, you need to get
Speaker 1: your brother tested for HIV, I was like, jo, Bingo,
Speaker 1: here we go. That's what I was waiting for. And
Speaker 1: I think it's really important to know that even though
Speaker 1: at this point Dominic isn't therapy, he's starting to learn
Speaker 1: how to grapple with his immense anger and hatred and
Speaker 1: sort of talks this. Uh he gets this memo from Ralph,
Speaker 1: drinkwater in his car like in a very secret agent way,
Speaker 1: and then decides the best course of action with this
Speaker 1: memo that proves that there is an epidemic of HIV
Speaker 1: A disease. At this point, it's nineteen nine or one,
Speaker 1: where they have very little understanding it is basically a
Speaker 1: death sentence in a way that it's not in the
Speaker 1: same way. Now he decides, oh, I'm going to use
Speaker 1: this to get to my brother out, not to expose
Speaker 1: the facility for the terrors that are happening there. Like
Speaker 1: if the if Dwayne Taylor, who's the cowboy who wouldn't
Speaker 1: like the cigarette and is raping the inmates, Uh, if
Speaker 1: he had not been gorn in in a bathroom, then
Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't have stopped him. Kind of just would
Speaker 1: have been Thomas gets out and it gets swept under
Speaker 1: the rug. It kind of felt similar to the way
Speaker 1: that they catch the child pornography of Ralph, where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you didn't do that. That was you didn't all of anything.
Speaker 1: You weren't like, Hey, it's kind of weird that this
Speaker 1: orphan child is living with this creepy adult. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: call someone. It just sort of like, Oh, that's really
Speaker 1: lucky that someone else caught this. Um. Yeah, I'd like
Speaker 1: to think that Ralph killed that guard. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that seems to indicate that, but I actually Ralph
Speaker 1: does work nights, which we know from the fact that
Speaker 1: when Dominic brought Thomas in there and he mopped up
Speaker 1: the urine and Dwayne the cowboy is not supposed to
Speaker 1: be there at night, so I feel like there is
Speaker 1: some evidence. Yeah. Um, I think Ralph, as a survivor
Speaker 1: of abuse maybe really did not like see it seeing
Speaker 1: it happen to anybody else and just took that problem
Speaker 1: into his own hands and to his own cousin who
Speaker 1: he knew was his cousin. And also he and Thomas
Speaker 1: had a sweet relationship. I don't think, uh, it wasn't
Speaker 1: about Dominic ever, like I think in spite of Dominic,
Speaker 1: he was just he was just protecting Thomas. UM. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and then Lisa Shaeffer, I think it's important to note
Speaker 1: that she was like, you're arrogant, Dominic, be careful like
Speaker 1: this is and he's like, what do you mean, I'm arrogant,
Speaker 1: So he's still like and then he slightly his arrogance
Speaker 1: of like that Thomas will be fine. They have that
Speaker 1: weird experience at McDonald's, and you know, with Leo and Thomas,
Speaker 1: it's kind of their last day together, UM, and it
Speaker 1: is something that is really tragic that um Dominic sort
Speaker 1: of overestimated his ability to UM help his brother or
Speaker 1: control his brother. But but I do think sort of
Speaker 1: the one gift that Wally and Near in writing the
Speaker 1: story gives to Dominic is that he did put him
Speaker 1: in the halfway home. So like the responsibility isn't entirely
Speaker 1: Thomas doesn't have to feel like it fault that way,
Speaker 1: like he did make that We're like, yeah, you they
Speaker 1: they would have they should have been more capable, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't like Dominic was directly responsible in that way,
Speaker 1: which I do feel like, I think it's I think
Speaker 1: it's more that it Dominic is still on his journey
Speaker 1: and he doesn't kind of see that he is emotionally.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would fault Dominic for what happened
Speaker 1: to Thomas. But it is just a part, a part
Speaker 1: of the soup of it all the tragedy. The real
Speaker 1: culprit is budget cuts. Yeah, yes, yeah, I just was
Speaker 1: gonna bring up, like what Melissa was saying about um
Speaker 1: chefferd mentioning his arrogance. It's like something that is like
Speaker 1: a running thread throughout this book is that like even
Speaker 1: Dominico has these delusions of grandeur, and Dr Patel makes
Speaker 1: a dominant reckon with that too, and it's like tied
Speaker 1: to the fact that both Dominic and Dominico feel like
Speaker 1: victims of their Sir Him stance and that everyone is
Speaker 1: against them and that they need to be owed these
Speaker 1: apologies and that they have been that they were born
Speaker 1: these men that should have been entitled to more and
Speaker 1: didn't get that, and so these delusions of grandeur are
Speaker 1: like he's finally Dominic is finally starting to chip away
Speaker 1: at the fact that like he can't solve everything and
Speaker 1: not everything not everyone is out to put him in
Speaker 1: a place where he has to solve everything, and it's
Speaker 1: it's an interesting contrast to like Thomas, who is obviously schizophrenic.
Speaker 1: His delusions of grandeur are the ones that I think
Speaker 1: people would recognize as delusions of grandeur, which is like
Speaker 1: the CIA is hunting me or whatever his delusions were,
Speaker 1: where Dominic's is more narcissistic in the sense of like
Speaker 1: I failed here and I'm controlling it, like or even
Speaker 1: where it looks self effacing, it's like, no, you don't
Speaker 1: have There's so much, so many references to martyrs in
Speaker 1: the book. I mean, you know, one that released it
Speaker 1: out to me was in Prospering story Violetta, who she
Speaker 1: she was modeling this biblical martyr Um who went blind.
Speaker 1: I believe, and I think, you know, it is really
Speaker 1: interesting that like there are these sort of martyr complexes
Speaker 1: that people have, like their actual martyrs, and like Thomas
Speaker 1: did a like really intense murder thing of cutting off
Speaker 1: his hand. But I feel like Dominic and Dominico both
Speaker 1: have these martyr complexes, which is very different because it's
Speaker 1: not actual, you know, it's it's really reckoning with that
Speaker 1: and releasing that. You're listening to Popcorn book Club from
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio and we'll be back right after the break. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're back with Popcorn book Club. So I feel like
Speaker 1: with that not fully covered, but as much as you
Speaker 1: can in this limited time, Jennifer, will you go back
Speaker 1: to raise story so more thing about Thomas? Yes, sorry,
Speaker 1: I just found it really tragic that Thomas's last meal
Speaker 1: on earth was a happy meal, and like he was
Speaker 1: insistent that he get a happy meal. And it reminded
Speaker 1: me of when he had asked for the water from
Speaker 1: the river so that he could cleanse his brain because
Speaker 1: he said that he was unclean and that he thought
Speaker 1: that using the water from the river is like a
Speaker 1: holy water would be able to cleanse his brain. And
Speaker 1: it felt like the happy meal was his last sort
Speaker 1: of ditch effort to try and be happy. And I
Speaker 1: cried like a little bit. Okay, one more tiny thing
Speaker 1: about Thomas. I'm so sorry um the fact that um
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the book, when he when Dominic
Speaker 1: was like, don't reattach the hand because Thomas doesn't want that.
Speaker 1: He wants that autonomy and authority. I like, I don't
Speaker 1: like it, but it's a I guess, a slight positive.
Speaker 1: There's no way to phrase this. A thing to notice
Speaker 1: about the journey is the way he goes out is
Speaker 1: at least on his terms. It's not a disease that
Speaker 1: someone abused him and gave him. He has been suffering
Speaker 1: and and does this traumatic thing to himself and hurts him.
Speaker 1: But like as Dominic commented with the hand, like that
Speaker 1: was at least he had so many choices taken away
Speaker 1: from him. At least he had like a tiny bit
Speaker 1: of agency in that. So even you know, I in
Speaker 1: the choice right, like in a novel that the author
Speaker 1: gets to choose how a character anything that happens to them,
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, if he wants Thomas to die,
Speaker 1: he could have had him die of aids and that whatever.
Speaker 1: But I I like that it mirrors that sense of tragedy,
Speaker 1: but but giving him a sense of autonomy at the end.
Speaker 1: And I think autonomy is something that the book's been
Speaker 1: dealing with since the very first page that this begins
Speaker 1: with the librarian from the library for Thomas cut off
Speaker 1: his hand, coming to Dominic and saying, hey, was this
Speaker 1: my fault? I just need to know that this wasn't
Speaker 1: mindful and um, obviously that that seems crazy. No, the
Speaker 1: librarian was just doing her job. It had grander exactly, Yes,
Speaker 1: But everybody seems to feel that way throughout the book,
Speaker 1: that they are responsible for things that they may or
Speaker 1: may not have been responsible for, and Dominic certainly feels
Speaker 1: that way with regard to Thomas. And I think that
Speaker 1: seguents nicely into what happens at Thomas's funeral. Um. So
Speaker 1: Thomas has um a funeral that a lot of people
Speaker 1: show up for, which is really nice that um that
Speaker 1: dess his family shows up for it as well. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a well attended funeral. And Ralph Ralph stayed in
Speaker 1: his car, but he was Ralph stayed, but Ralph was
Speaker 1: there yep. And then afterwards at the memorial at their house,
Speaker 1: um Dominic gets very very angry at Ray and talks
Speaker 1: about how they bullied Thomas into this, that they were
Speaker 1: both responsible, that that this is a victory day for
Speaker 1: them because they get to be big, tough guys and
Speaker 1: they were bullying Thomas every chance they could and Ray, Um,
Speaker 1: Ray has this moment where he becomes very defensive and
Speaker 1: he says that the day that he adopted them, the
Speaker 1: judge said that he was a good man. That like
Speaker 1: that he was taking on two little boys and that
Speaker 1: made him a good man, and it seems like Ray
Speaker 1: had really clung to that. But um, but yeah, so
Speaker 1: um Dominic goes into a little bit of a depressive
Speaker 1: spell afterwards, and Dr Patel does a little bit of
Speaker 1: tough love and says that she's not going to meet
Speaker 1: with him until he does some of the things on
Speaker 1: his list, which include like thanking people for coming to
Speaker 1: the funeral and writing thank you know, and reapplying for
Speaker 1: his teacher's license and going back to doing that, and
Speaker 1: perhaps um most difficult, trying to extend some forgiveness to
Speaker 1: Ray and trying to make amends there and through or
Speaker 1: at least just like re established, it's re established a
Speaker 1: contact here. And throughout that he's been getting a lot
Speaker 1: of phone calls from Ray, and he finally gets this
Speaker 1: call from Raised doctor saying, Hey, the surgery went well.
Speaker 1: We had to like amputate right below the knee. But
Speaker 1: he's recovering and Dominic had no idea of what was happening.
Speaker 1: It turns out the raise diabetes um has caused him
Speaker 1: has custed one of his limbs to turn gangrenus. And
Speaker 1: I don't even think did Dominic sorry interrupted Dominic even
Speaker 1: know that Ray was Diabeticum, He didn't know that he
Speaker 1: was diabetic. Yeah, And he also knew that Ray had
Speaker 1: like off handedly said he had like giving me some trouble. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he had said the numbers, Yeah, he talked about how yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But it turned out that Ray ignored that for far
Speaker 1: too long wanted to be a tough guy. That's what
Speaker 1: the doctor said, and as a result, that limb got
Speaker 1: starved and they had to amputate. So he goes and
Speaker 1: sees Ray at the hospital. Quick toxic masculinity. Literally you
Speaker 1: literally lose limbs. It literally toxic to your limbs anyway. Yes, yes, um, yes,
Speaker 1: if you starve nothing long enough, it dies. Ray kept
Speaker 1: starving his limb, it died. Now, just like Thomas, he
Speaker 1: has lost a limb, and for the first time, he's
Speaker 1: in this really, really vulnerable state where he has to
Speaker 1: rely on other people and um, he can't kind of
Speaker 1: bluster and tough guy his way out of this situation.
Speaker 1: And it's the first time that he really starts talking
Speaker 1: to Dominic and talking about how he had a really
Speaker 1: sad childhood as well. They his parents died, Um, that
Speaker 1: the person that he thought was his sister was actually
Speaker 1: his mother. Um, he was left only with his alcoholic
Speaker 1: sister for a long time, and he got out of
Speaker 1: there and joined the navy, and that was his way out,
Speaker 1: and he just he had a very unhappy life. And
Speaker 1: I thought it was really sweet that, Um, they start
Speaker 1: having little outings together, like they go out and they
Speaker 1: get burgers and for their third outing races, he wants
Speaker 1: to go to a movie, which Dominic things is weird
Speaker 1: because he thought movies were a huge voice of money
Speaker 1: and he didn't like them when they were little. But
Speaker 1: he wants to go to a movie, and Dominic assumes
Speaker 1: that I'm going to have to sit through Dances with
Speaker 1: Wolves again or like Donard Steady. And Ray says, I
Speaker 1: want to go see The Little Mord and Dominic says,
Speaker 1: that's that's a movie for babies. He said, don't you
Speaker 1: think I know what that is? Don't think I'm curious?
Speaker 1: Why do you ask me what do you want to see?
Speaker 1: If you don't want to go see a Little Mermaid,
Speaker 1: then we'll see whatever you want to see. But you
Speaker 1: asked me. Yeah. So they go and they see The
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid, and Dominic understands that it's also about this
Speaker 1: person who doesn't have legs. That's why Ray wanted to
Speaker 1: see it, and it's really sweet and I think, UM,
Speaker 1: for the first time, he kind of understands that there
Speaker 1: are layers to Ray that you know, Ray had his
Speaker 1: own terrible baggage or you know, that doesn't make up
Speaker 1: for what was done to them as children, but it
Speaker 1: sort of means that he can see this person as
Speaker 1: a man who failed, UM, but failed for reasons that
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of men have experienced. And then Ray
Speaker 1: goes to my nursing home and he makes three friends
Speaker 1: and Um and they like make sexist jumps together and
Speaker 1: talk about the war, and um, they're old man and
Speaker 1: wheelchairs and it seems like he's doing pretty well. There.
Speaker 1: There's also another lady at the at there's an interesting
Speaker 1: lady at the hall of the nursing home, which maybe
Speaker 1: you would like to talk. Yes, there's a woman in
Speaker 1: the nursing home hall who always gives him an evil eye.
Speaker 1: And he's like, why is this woman always looking at
Speaker 1: me like she knows me? This woman doesn't know me.
Speaker 1: And then one day she shows up and that old
Speaker 1: woman is gone and they're like that old woman you
Speaker 1: mean prospertine And he's like, what I just read that story?
Speaker 1: Could she be? What could it be? And he runs
Speaker 1: to the hospital and he takes two rabbits that are
Speaker 1: in the children's doing for the visiting, and he's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this woman has been in Settled. She's
Speaker 1: over a hundred years old. Like there's a bit of
Speaker 1: mystery because her last name is different, but of course,
Speaker 1: like that could be anything, and so you believe what
Speaker 1: you want to believe, and personally I do want to believe.
Speaker 1: I think it makes perfect sense that this woman has
Speaker 1: been in settle for a hundred years or whatever and
Speaker 1: then was moved to a nursing home. Uh, and he's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's the same woman. It's it's Prospertine.
Speaker 1: It's the monkey from the story. He grabs the rabbits
Speaker 1: because he's like, I have an idea that I'll reenax
Speaker 1: the miracle from her childhood. You a reason that doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense to me. And he runs up to her
Speaker 1: room and he's like, one rabbit and rabbits, forgive me.
Speaker 1: I really when the heaven I was like, leave this
Speaker 1: poor woman on her loan. She has has pneumonia, she's
Speaker 1: over a hundred years old, she's about to die. She
Speaker 1: has nobody showing up for her. And this person who
Speaker 1: looks like Dominico is like pulling rabbits out of his
Speaker 1: ass in front of her. Any level, this lady wanted
Speaker 1: to see mabe rebutu to this that should not be
Speaker 1: the last face that is poor old he's on earth.
Speaker 1: It's like to me, dominic is still so fucking selfish,
Speaker 1: like going up to this woman and man, why is
Speaker 1: no one stopping? Oh, it is important to notice that
Speaker 1: Hurricane Bob, Bob Bob, Hurricane Bob is happening, which is
Speaker 1: like maybe the only cover that allows Dominic to children's
Speaker 1: way and the old rabbits that the dying children have
Speaker 1: for company. He's like I need. If Dominic had grown
Speaker 1: a little bit more, what he would have done is
Speaker 1: run up there and like punched himself in the face
Speaker 1: or something like just made it me like I am
Speaker 1: I am a bad person, or let prospering like burn
Speaker 1: burn Dominic with a with the ash from his pipe,
Speaker 1: her pipe or something. He could have just said, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry, give me. Was It's like it's just say
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah, it puts the onus on process. Also,
Speaker 1: I will say that he didn't bring one rabbit up
Speaker 1: and then two rabbits. He brought two rabbits up and
Speaker 1: then one rabbit and a reversal of what happened. And
Speaker 1: I was like, what is this supposed to do? It?
Speaker 1: Like true deep and I just don't get it. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad nobody else got it. No, I didn't
Speaker 1: get it. If Wally Lamb was truly sick, he'd be
Speaker 1: like Dominic was like two rabbits one flat line and
Speaker 1: like that was truly her last image. But I do
Speaker 1: think going back to like forgive me is so much
Speaker 1: more selfish than I'm sorry because if if you're going
Speaker 1: to bother this old woman as she's dying of pneumonia,
Speaker 1: A lot of times needing um forgiveness from people is
Speaker 1: very selfish because you want to be absolved of your
Speaker 1: own guilt, and it's not necessarily the right thing to
Speaker 1: do for that person. And like that forgiving someone is
Speaker 1: a very nice thing that you do were them. It's
Speaker 1: a gift. And so like just demanding this thing from
Speaker 1: this woman who's been tortured her entire life, wrongfully imprisoned, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he's rewarded for it because it breaks the curse.
Speaker 1: And then I think it's really quick. But the prospering cameo.
Speaker 1: It did make me so happy that she outlived dominico Um,
Speaker 1: and I feel like in some way she must have
Speaker 1: known that. But it also makes me think because because
Speaker 1: it was that was in the twenties, is the nineties,
Speaker 1: so she's probably like a hundred. I feel like if
Speaker 1: she hadn't been in settle her whole life, she would
Speaker 1: have lived to like a hundred and forty. Like she
Speaker 1: she was just like the toughest person in the world.
Speaker 1: She was a tough pipe smoking broad. Back to Ray,
Speaker 1: I think the important thing for Ray is that when
Speaker 1: when Dominic is able to maybe not forgive him, but
Speaker 1: at least accept him as his father and accepts all
Speaker 1: of his flaws and vulnerabilities and be like, look like,
Speaker 1: I don't just can't necessarily forgive you for the things
Speaker 1: you did, but like I still see you. Um, that's
Speaker 1: when he gets the gift that he's wanted his entire life,
Speaker 1: which is the identity of his quote unquote real father,
Speaker 1: biological father, which that he finds out is a man
Speaker 1: named Henry Drinkwater who is the brother of Ralph Drinkwater's father,
Speaker 1: the son of a Drinkwater that worked at the factory.
Speaker 1: And we find out that he was mixed. He was
Speaker 1: part black and part Native American. And that's a why
Speaker 1: that uh, Connie couldn't tell anyone because that would have
Speaker 1: caused her father probably to kick her out of the
Speaker 1: house and disown her because he was a racist and
Speaker 1: he's a racist. But also when he is talking, he
Speaker 1: finds out by going to Ralph, and Ralph tells him
Speaker 1: that Thomas knew that she had told Thomas, and then um,
Speaker 1: dr Ptel helps him see that maybe the mother had
Speaker 1: had protected him because like, yeah, as we know from everything,
Speaker 1: like Dominic one has massive anger issues but also was
Speaker 1: pretty racist a lot, and like she was maybe protecting
Speaker 1: him from like how he would react, and she wasn't
Speaker 1: sure how he would react because he he looks a
Speaker 1: lot like their grandfather and her grandfather was mad and racist.
Speaker 1: There is this now that we're talking about it too.
Speaker 1: It is something that Ray also seemingly does to protect
Speaker 1: him because in that huge fight that happens after the funeral,
Speaker 1: when he when Ray is saying that he's a good man,
Speaker 1: he's a good man, someone with less control could have
Speaker 1: popped off and Ray could have been like, you know
Speaker 1: who your real father is, That's why I'm a good man,
Speaker 1: and like this is why, like you shouldn't be yelling
Speaker 1: at me, Like he chose not to tell Dominic until
Speaker 1: Dominic was at a place where that till Dominic was
Speaker 1: also at a place where he could also found it
Speaker 1: interesting that scene because at first, the first time Dominic asked,
Speaker 1: Ray says he doesn't know, and then he comes back
Speaker 1: after sharing his story it's to me. There was something
Speaker 1: sweet about it, being a truly empathetic moment that Ray
Speaker 1: had of like this happened to me. I didn't know
Speaker 1: who my parents were. It's not absolving him of anything,
Speaker 1: but I did think there was something a growth there
Speaker 1: that Karama does not agree. I think he also said
Speaker 1: that it's different now, there's right. I forgot about that
Speaker 1: and they were about to open that. I think my
Speaker 1: head because I wanted it to be it's sweet. It's
Speaker 1: sweeter for him to be nice. Although I will say
Speaker 1: it's as as far as Ray goes, We'll say it's
Speaker 1: a good gesture on raise, but Ray is limited. Ray
Speaker 1: is indeed limited. I think that with the money on
Speaker 1: the line, he was like, I want to, since you're
Speaker 1: my kid, make sure that you're taking care of especially
Speaker 1: because we've had all this trauma recently and you're sort
Speaker 1: of between the gigs, and I want to make sure
Speaker 1: that you're okay. And I have this information that I've
Speaker 1: been holding onto because I loved your mother so much
Speaker 1: and she asked me not to tell anyone, but I
Speaker 1: love you and I think it's important for you to
Speaker 1: know so that you can be okay. Yeah, what kids
Speaker 1: to be financially security. It's a very paternal emotion, like
Speaker 1: it's it's the level of like you gotta get your
Speaker 1: car tires because otherwise it's going to be a problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we're just like spilling family secrets right now. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure everybody remember that he was
Speaker 1: like take the money from the Native Americans. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just want to go on the record and say so.
Speaker 1: When Dominick he runs, he talks to Ralph and he
Speaker 1: sees that Ralph now has this a major role in
Speaker 1: the connect nation and and it has a position of
Speaker 1: power and has a really nice office and a new building.
Speaker 1: And he's like, wow, you know, Ralph really made it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, however, nice Ralph's office is now he deserves
Speaker 1: and office three times is nice for everything he put
Speaker 1: up with and the fact that as a member of
Speaker 1: UH the aquatic tribe, now dominic is entitled to like
Speaker 1: an equal share of the money. I'm like, I think,
Speaker 1: as we were talking about before, he does not deserve that.
Speaker 1: He doesn't. I don't think the story needs it for
Speaker 1: closure or for him to be rewarded in anyway. Like
Speaker 1: his reward could just be like he could he gets
Speaker 1: this emotional closure and then and he works as a
Speaker 1: as a as a middle as a teacher, teaching history
Speaker 1: better than the history that he had been taught, which
Speaker 1: I like. I like that parallel, and he gets back
Speaker 1: together with yeah, that could maybe if if you need that.
Speaker 1: When I found out that when we all find find
Speaker 1: out that he is drink a drink water, but he
Speaker 1: had been his entire life raised to believe that he
Speaker 1: is fully a white man, and like is white passing
Speaker 1: and has all this white privilege. At that point, I
Speaker 1: was like, waly Man, this feels like some settler colonial
Speaker 1: fan fiction where someone yes, gets to find out that
Speaker 1: they like because everyone there are so many there, you
Speaker 1: know that that trope a stereotype of white folks being like,
Speaker 1: but I'm part Native American, yes, part indigenous, And for
Speaker 1: this to actually work out in his favor in such
Speaker 1: a way where he gets to be like, I'm part
Speaker 1: Native American and I get to be wealthy, it felt
Speaker 1: so it was not it was satisfying. It felt so cheap. Yes,
Speaker 1: it did. I do want to talk about blood quantum
Speaker 1: and uh and Native American like nations. Blood quantum. I
Speaker 1: love that it's something. It's also the title of a movie,
Speaker 1: but that's not what I mean. So blood quantum is
Speaker 1: the way that many Indian nations, and that is one
Speaker 1: of the terms that that people use for it. So
Speaker 1: I'm not I think that's the right term, and please
Speaker 1: forgive me if it's not. But it's one of the
Speaker 1: ways that many Indian nations determine who gets to be
Speaker 1: a citizen because they are their own sovereign nations. So
Speaker 1: like for the Navajo Nation, if you have twenty five
Speaker 1: percent Navajo blood, then at least then you can be
Speaker 1: a member of the Navajo Nation. But it does bring
Speaker 1: up issues of like how do you measure that? And
Speaker 1: for some people they are mixed with very different tribes,
Speaker 1: but then they can't belong to any one tribe because
Speaker 1: they don't have enough of a high percentage of blood
Speaker 1: of anyone tribe to become a citizen. And each tribe
Speaker 1: gets to decide on their own how they do that.
Speaker 1: And I think that I was reading something about blood
Speaker 1: quantum because it's something that I had been thinking about before,
Speaker 1: like it's something I've been thinking about for years. The
Speaker 1: first time I learned about it, I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: what this feels messy and bad and wrong? And um
Speaker 1: they somebody called it a colonial catch twenty two because
Speaker 1: the thing is It's like what Tienne just said, there
Speaker 1: are all these white people like uh, some who have
Speaker 1: run for president who say I'm part Native American, and
Speaker 1: then they try and claim that and to have somebody
Speaker 1: come in a situation like this in the book and
Speaker 1: try and claim that you have to have some sort
Speaker 1: of barrier to say no, you don't get to just
Speaker 1: say you had a story and that story entitles you
Speaker 1: to the rights that we have fought really hard for
Speaker 1: in courts of law and lost people for. So I
Speaker 1: think that that's important. But at the same time, like
Speaker 1: how do you keep You don't want to say you
Speaker 1: only have to breed with us so that you can
Speaker 1: stay a member of this community. But at a certain point,
Speaker 1: because of blood quantum, if you if you have a
Speaker 1: child with anybody outside of your community, then you end
Speaker 1: up losing this connection to the community. And I think
Speaker 1: that it sets up this really interesting thing that they
Speaker 1: never talk about what the blood quantum for the Quantics is.
Speaker 1: And there I believe I made up tribe in this book.
Speaker 1: I looked up I looked them up and only could
Speaker 1: find things about I know this much as true, and
Speaker 1: I think that they're supposed to be sort of a
Speaker 1: stand in for the Mohegan Nation, which does have a
Speaker 1: huge casino in Connecticut. Um and I couldn't find anything
Speaker 1: on their website about what the blood quantum requirements were
Speaker 1: for them. You had to like write into them with
Speaker 1: a letter in the US Postal Service to get more
Speaker 1: information about joining. We can assume that that dominic I mean,
Speaker 1: but like you said, like blood quantum is such a messy,
Speaker 1: nobulous like colonialists catchwain to where that had no impact
Speaker 1: on his life, on his culture, on the way he
Speaker 1: was raised, on the way he was treated by others perceived.
Speaker 1: So he could have been fifty percent. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: whatever percentage does it, It doesn't matter because it didn't
Speaker 1: inform his life. Like I said at the beginning, like
Speaker 1: he not only like weaponized his white male privileged with
Speaker 1: like law enforcement and the police a lot and a
Speaker 1: position of authority. He specifically weaponized it against the Drinkwaters.
Speaker 1: What really bummed me out was I had like a
Speaker 1: glimmer of hope when he was in that scene with
Speaker 1: Ralph and says like I'm a drinkwater, We're cousins. The
Speaker 1: whole thing. He was like, when you know, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people now that there's money, saying that
Speaker 1: they're you know, of this tribe, and he's like, I
Speaker 1: don't care about the money. I just care about where
Speaker 1: I came from. Like, oh good, oh good. He's not
Speaker 1: going to take laim, I will say, I like, I
Speaker 1: want to say, in fairness. I like that he doesn't
Speaker 1: just take the money. In peace, he tries to become
Speaker 1: an active and in both mentors community. He teaches at
Speaker 1: the Quantic School here doing back up real quick and
Speaker 1: just say I'm so glad. The one thing about this
Speaker 1: storyline is that Constantina was not raped by her father,
Speaker 1: And I think there's something I found really When Dominic
Speaker 1: is reading the story and his questioning about his parentage,
Speaker 1: it's always like either she was raped or it was
Speaker 1: a mercy mercy fuck, like those are the only two
Speaker 1: options for his hair lipped mother. He really thought, but
Speaker 1: it sounds like she had love in that, like that
Speaker 1: that those children were born out of love and the
Speaker 1: father died tragically in the war. But I thought that
Speaker 1: was like really nice that she had that, that those
Speaker 1: babies were born out of love. Yeah, When his aunt
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, she met him at the shop and
Speaker 1: she saw him and they loved each other like that.
Speaker 1: They were friends for years. Yeah. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: also one of the reasons he ends up for giving
Speaker 1: Ray is because Ray talks about meeting his mother and
Speaker 1: his mother was saying, oh my lips so ugly and
Speaker 1: probably the mosteeming that's the most redeeming Ray moment. The
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid probably, yeah, and a redeemable Domenico moment. There
Speaker 1: are few, but this is one of them. Uh. You
Speaker 1: find out when you find out that um, that Henry
Speaker 1: Drinkwater is Dominic's dad, that that Domenico had given money
Speaker 1: to the drink Waters after Nappy Drinkwater died under his
Speaker 1: employ And he didn't do it like he wasn't required
Speaker 1: to or anything. He just did it because they still
Speaker 1: had young kids. And he was like, He's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's stupid business didn't care for them. Yeah, but businesses
Speaker 1: feel like, I'm just going to send them a little
Speaker 1: bit of money because that's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: And that was the one redeeming thing I know. And
Speaker 1: he's also a man who was so proud of not
Speaker 1: giving money at any point that for him that must
Speaker 1: have been a big deal. But like I I said earlier,
Speaker 1: I think that when bad character or flawed characters do
Speaker 1: have redeeming moments, it then makes it more powerful book
Speaker 1: because then it forces you to really reckon with and
Speaker 1: accept who they their flaw they're complicated. And I think
Speaker 1: it's also a really interesting book to be reading right
Speaker 1: at this moment in history, because I think there are
Speaker 1: um a lot of articles that exist, um some of
Speaker 1: which I have probably written, that are like, well, if
Speaker 1: you have a bad family member, cut them off. You're
Speaker 1: an orphan. Now they voted for Trump. Never taught to
Speaker 1: them again. There you go, that's your solution. And this
Speaker 1: was a book that was really about like the beauty
Speaker 1: of forgiveness in trying to find these small redeeming moments
Speaker 1: in people and not to forgiven except that they're bad
Speaker 1: people who vote for Trump, but to kelp them grow,
Speaker 1: to help them grow. The people are capable of growth
Speaker 1: and capable of becoming better. And that's something I really
Speaker 1: want to believe. You're listening to Popcorn Book Cliff from
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. We'll be right back after this quick break,
Speaker 1: all right, so let's get back into it. We got
Speaker 1: I feel like two more big stories, Joy and Death. Right.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say the two main things, and
Speaker 1: now the wrap up of the women in Dominic's life.
Speaker 1: I would say for all the nuanced women that we
Speaker 1: saw in the story about Violetta and Prospertine, like these
Speaker 1: now are women who I kind of thought happened there
Speaker 1: there there endings wrapped up very quickly and very much
Speaker 1: deserved dominant and and uh, well it was like how
Speaker 1: I met your mother, where it's like this is this
Speaker 1: woman exists for this purpose. This woman exists for this purpose,
Speaker 1: and now we will make sure you get all the
Speaker 1: happy that you wanted through these two women. Melissa, you
Speaker 1: want to take take whatepen boy if you wouldn't for Joy. Um. Yes.
Speaker 1: So Joy gets in touch with Dominic, like wants to
Speaker 1: see him. She says she's in town. She sends a
Speaker 1: picture of the baby, and it's like, I really like
Speaker 1: if you like to visit the baby sometimes I really
Speaker 1: like that things didn't turn out so great. I would
Speaker 1: love to see you. Hint hint um. He avoids it
Speaker 1: at first, and then he finally agrees to see Joy.
Speaker 1: And Joy comes over and she has the baby and
Speaker 1: she's like lugging the baby out and she and she's
Speaker 1: wearing a lot of makeup, and Dominic thinks she looks
Speaker 1: pretty pretty bad, like there's something going on. She looks tired,
Speaker 1: like you know, she's hiding something, and she they make sandwiches,
Speaker 1: and she keeps saying, you want to hold the baby,
Speaker 1: you want to hold the baby, and he's like, no,
Speaker 1: obviously there's some trauma related to Dominic, uh, in relation
Speaker 1: to babies. Um. But she keeps on, she's acting a
Speaker 1: little um. She doesn't need her sandwich. He keeps on
Speaker 1: wanting her to leave, and she's like, please look at
Speaker 1: this beautiful baby. And then finally she's like hold the
Speaker 1: baby and like and then she leaves and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: she forgot her binky. And then oh, there's a blanket.
Speaker 1: And underneath the blanket is a letter. And it's this
Speaker 1: letter that explains that fucking the word maybe the worst
Speaker 1: character in the book, the Duchess. I would say, it's
Speaker 1: between it's between sad and um. And also and also
Speaker 1: and also I didn't need to call him that. I
Speaker 1: didn't mean to call him because that's very bad, homophobic name.
Speaker 1: I just forgot that his name was that um. But
Speaker 1: also that that's how, that's how our narrator I didn't
Speaker 1: think that that was a Melissa was um HIV positive
Speaker 1: and got UM and pass it along to Joy, and
Speaker 1: then he ran off with with another man I believe
Speaker 1: to Mexico because he now was had aids and and
Speaker 1: took all their money and just bounced to Mexico for
Speaker 1: treatment treatment, And so then she now has no money
Speaker 1: and she's back in three rivers and is HIV positive,
Speaker 1: which in the early nineties is very, very bad um
Speaker 1: much much worse than it is today. And she asked
Speaker 1: if he would ever consider taking Tiffany the baby if
Speaker 1: she passes away, and he as like, I couldn't do
Speaker 1: that at first, and so he needs to get tested.
Speaker 1: And so he's really freaking out about it and goes
Speaker 1: to get tested and it's really distracted during that time,
Speaker 1: and then he finds out he's not HIV positive. The
Speaker 1: baby is also not. Yes, that's that's Tiffany. Is Tiffany
Speaker 1: very and a very white word for it in the
Speaker 1: year old Tiffany And poor Joy is just such a
Speaker 1: tragic character in this story, like just never gets a
Speaker 1: shot and she is like so apologetic and thinks that
Speaker 1: her whole you know, it was a blight on Dominic
Speaker 1: to have her in the house, which is also very
Speaker 1: sad because Dominic was so cruel to Joy um throughout
Speaker 1: the book. And then uh um, it breaks my heart
Speaker 1: that Joy's best plan for her child is I could
Speaker 1: give him to this man. I had this man who
Speaker 1: was not very nice to me. He wasn't nice to me.
Speaker 1: But she's the best thing I've got. But yeah, we
Speaker 1: get these these hints of like that Joy you know,
Speaker 1: went to live with her mom briefly, and her mom
Speaker 1: had a horrible and her boyfriend and then obviously bad
Speaker 1: like the one man in her life who has been
Speaker 1: grooming her since she was like ten or twelve then
Speaker 1: abandons her and takes her money like she has been abandoned.
Speaker 1: There is no one in her life she is. That
Speaker 1: is the real That is a tragedy of this of
Speaker 1: this book. And it's while you're sick for name and
Speaker 1: her joy. Yeah, yeah you wanna you want to take
Speaker 1: away the way dovetails with Desta, Yes, absolutely sure, so
Speaker 1: um so Dessa's mom. Actually, I'm gonna backtrack a little bit.
Speaker 1: Dess mom had a dizzy spell the day of Thomas's funeral,
Speaker 1: so Dessa was late and missed the grave side part
Speaker 1: and just was able to come to the reception afterward.
Speaker 1: And that's sort of when they start to reconnect. And Um,
Speaker 1: they run into each other at the hospital when Dominic
Speaker 1: is visiting Ray post amputation and Tessa is there. He
Speaker 1: initially thinks to visit her mom because something might have
Speaker 1: happened again to her mom. But she started to volunteer
Speaker 1: with children at the hospital, like particularly terminal children who
Speaker 1: play with rabbits and some other animals, and she holds
Speaker 1: the kids and like holds babies who have dusted positive
Speaker 1: for HIV, which they very insensitively call AIDS babies. Throughout
Speaker 1: the book, I will say not I mean not to
Speaker 1: dismiss it, because that is very intensive. I am pretty
Speaker 1: sure that that was like the media, Oh, that was
Speaker 1: what they called something. But I'm just like reminding people
Speaker 1: that that was yucky that we did in the nineties. Um,
Speaker 1: Sodessa and Dominic sort of strike up this friendship again,
Speaker 1: which is very sweet and it would have been great
Speaker 1: if that was all that had happened, but there's more so, Umdessa.
Speaker 1: He finds out through Leo that Deessa and Dan, her
Speaker 1: Potter boyfriend, are breaking up and Dan is going to
Speaker 1: move back to New Mexico and it's amicable and nothing's wrong.
Speaker 1: So this seems like the one positive male relationship that
Speaker 1: Dust has ever had in her life. And uh then
Speaker 1: sometimes actually Potters moved back to what happens all the
Speaker 1: time when you when you love a Potter, you know
Speaker 1: him to Mexico, Mexico, that's where they make Potters. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry back to you. No, it's fine. So um
Speaker 1: she So he finds out through Leo and actually has
Speaker 1: a very mature response. I don't think Dessa and I
Speaker 1: are going to get back together. We're not just going
Speaker 1: to start dating again. You can't just pick up where
Speaker 1: you left off. And I was like, okay, okay, Dominic, okay, Wally, growth, maturity, responsibility,
Speaker 1: but there's more. So, um, after everything that happens with Thomas,
Speaker 1: after everything that happens with Ray getting sick and then
Speaker 1: later having his stroke, uh, he and Dessa do start
Speaker 1: to date again, and I think they start off by
Speaker 1: just going to women. And even even Dominic is like
Speaker 1: I started off with some misogyn and now I love it.
Speaker 1: Now I know all the players. Now, I'm a feminist
Speaker 1: women's basketball, a feminist and so he replaces Angie as
Speaker 1: Deessa's date to go to this women's basketball game, and
Speaker 1: then they start seeing and they started and Doesna starts
Speaker 1: bringing Tiffany Rose to women's basketball games because Joy at Yukon,
Speaker 1: which has a history of being a dynasty in the
Speaker 1: women's basketball and c double A. So it's thanks Jian.
Speaker 1: I am not a sport person, so I didn't need that.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that there is a history of that and
Speaker 1: that that draws from real life. And so Joy had
Speaker 1: mentioned in her tape to Dominic way back when she
Speaker 1: revealed that she was pregnant with Dad's baby, that she
Speaker 1: um that she had met Deessa and had seen Dessa
Speaker 1: one time. And since Joy has now moved back to
Speaker 1: Three Rivers and Dominic has committed to assist her how
Speaker 1: he can but cannot commit to taking her baby Tiffany Rose. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're interacting in each other's lives again, and since he
Speaker 1: started seeing Tessa, they become friends. And it's really nice
Speaker 1: that Joy finally does at the end of her life,
Speaker 1: because she does ultimately end up dying of HIV complications,
Speaker 1: she does end up becoming friends with Tessa and they
Speaker 1: do agree to adopt Tiffany Rose, so they get the
Speaker 1: baby that they had wanted all along, even though Dominic
Speaker 1: had his vasectomy. And Joy doesn't have to be anybody's
Speaker 1: inconvenience because she's dead from being sexually abused by her uncle.
Speaker 1: And everyone lived happily ever after except for Joy. That
Speaker 1: I will say. I I liked the way that Wally
Speaker 1: framed reconnecting with Dessa. It at least felt felt respectful
Speaker 1: and and natural. You know, people do fall apart and
Speaker 1: come back together after growth and trauma, and that is
Speaker 1: a real thing that happened. And he was very respectful.
Speaker 1: They you know, we're going on date and had this
Speaker 1: what I didn't love, um well Joy that is just
Speaker 1: so tragic that she just just sort of like cannon
Speaker 1: fodder to to Dominic's life. But um that it did
Speaker 1: sort of feel like after the curse was broken. I'm
Speaker 1: putting this in holes terms that he just sort of
Speaker 1: gets his like gold star reward for everything, and it's
Speaker 1: like and here's your woman, and million dollars a million dollars.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the one happiness the tragedy of
Speaker 1: Joy is awful. I was happy that Tessa was able
Speaker 1: to be a mom because she's so badly wanted to
Speaker 1: be like and I'm glad that Tiffany has a very
Speaker 1: nice mom inessa. But that's you know, Dominic didn't. He
Speaker 1: just didn't need he didn't need the millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: He really got a part also about the best story,
Speaker 1: where it was proposed to Tessa and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Let me think about it,
Speaker 1: which I feel like it's a good Deessa answer. Yes,
Speaker 1: she says, give me a week. And they still continue
Speaker 1: to spend time together during this week, but it is
Speaker 1: minorly awkward and um. They sit together in like a
Speaker 1: hotel room or something and are going to watch the
Speaker 1: movie The Bicycle Thief, which is this old black and
Speaker 1: white Italian movie, and she's like, oh, it's the saddest
Speaker 1: movie in the world. He's like, really, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it looks dumb and falls asleep. Ten minutes into it.
Speaker 1: He wakes up. She is sobbing. Then he's like what
Speaker 1: is it? Is it the movie? And she says all right.
Speaker 1: He's like all right. She's like, all right, I'm not
Speaker 1: afraid of you anymore. We can get married. And I'm
Speaker 1: just like, I don't know if I'd want to marry
Speaker 1: somebody who had to say I'm not afraid of you
Speaker 1: any more. Yeah, that's not a good enough fairy tale.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say, look, I did like the way
Speaker 1: they came back, the way they came back together. I
Speaker 1: didn't love the fact that they did come back together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good lesson for for Leo
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, does is single now, and for
Speaker 1: Dominic to be like, we can't pick up where we
Speaker 1: left off and then proceed to pick up it would
Speaker 1: have been so satisfying. Look, even if they it would
Speaker 1: have been fine, like for him to have grown and
Speaker 1: become a teacher in the connect Nation and have a
Speaker 1: nice relationship with Essa. Yes, I mean I look. The
Speaker 1: one thing that redeemed it a little bit in my
Speaker 1: mind is there's so much talk about fable and parable
Speaker 1: and learning lessons and we have to remember like in
Speaker 1: case we didn't know No, But like, obviously this is
Speaker 1: like a fictional book, and so I liked thinking of
Speaker 1: it in my mind sort of as a parable and
Speaker 1: parables do get happy endings in the way that like
Speaker 1: maybe the book itself is sort of a meta expression
Speaker 1: of that where it's like he was able to slay
Speaker 1: his dragons and reach his reward, which is a reductive story,
Speaker 1: but maybe is reductive in a way that he's on
Speaker 1: purpose to serve a larger narrative. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it's also an important parallel to domenico story that
Speaker 1: Domenico desperately wants to be left by Ignacia and he
Speaker 1: tries to beat it out of her. He tries to
Speaker 1: lock her and keep her a prisoner in his house,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't work. It fails, She escapes and kills
Speaker 1: herself and tries to kill their child. And instead dominic
Speaker 1: um lets this when he loves go and works on
Speaker 1: himself and tries to become a better person on his
Speaker 1: own before he returns to her, and the very least,
Speaker 1: that is a much healthier way to try to approach that. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying that. Um. If somebody breaks
Speaker 1: up with you and you go to therapy, Um, then
Speaker 1: you deserve them back at the edge. That's not a prize.
Speaker 1: But I do think it is a good paril level
Speaker 1: if we look at how do Menico traded love versus
Speaker 1: how dominant treads it, and then the last important thing
Speaker 1: that I think we need to talk about before we
Speaker 1: stopped talking about the book, and I do want to
Speaker 1: talk about the show just a wee bit um is
Speaker 1: that the house that Domenico built them what did they
Speaker 1: call it, the casa the due his duplex as we
Speaker 1: say in English, um, he gets transformed into a women's shelter.
Speaker 1: He uses Dominic some of the money for that, which
Speaker 1: is a smart So he uses some of the money
Speaker 1: from the Aquatic Nation to build a women's shelter on
Speaker 1: the property that his grandfather bought. And I think that
Speaker 1: that is a very fitting way because it had been
Speaker 1: it had been home to so much abuse to sort
Speaker 1: of give back and say like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: continue a legacy. I don't want to live in this
Speaker 1: house and try and make it my home after it's
Speaker 1: been such a site of abuse. I want to change
Speaker 1: it and make it and give it to people who
Speaker 1: didn't have what my grandmother had, or having my names
Speaker 1: that after he first wives club Edda off the cuff,
Speaker 1: but it didn't say that earlier. At the name names
Speaker 1: it after his mom. Yes, he does name it after
Speaker 1: his mom. I like that he specifically leaves out the tempesta.
Speaker 1: It's like Connie Bird, that is, that is such a tempestia.
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with names and fiction, like because coming up
Speaker 1: with names is such a thing. But like, yeah, their
Speaker 1: main tempesta thing is like their t and that comes
Speaker 1: back to the tempesta tempest tempestuous. That is, I mean
Speaker 1: so perfectly fitting for that to be the legacy of Domenico,
Speaker 1: that that Dominic has to tried to overcame. I know
Speaker 1: that much is true, and you know, I let I
Speaker 1: think it is interesting that like Dominic goes through getting
Speaker 1: back with Essa, going to women's basketball game, starting this
Speaker 1: women's shelter, and be friends a lesbian couple, Like those
Speaker 1: are all the things you need to be a man
Speaker 1: who wants to just to make sure that you check
Speaker 1: off all of these boxes. Man listening men listening to
Speaker 1: EN's basketball, friendship with a lesbian couple, and open a
Speaker 1: women's shelter, you are absolved all the terrible things you need.
Speaker 1: One note that I thought was really good about his
Speaker 1: friendship with the lesbian couple who was Dr Schaeffer and
Speaker 1: her perfect Monica. Yeah. Um, there's this great interction between
Speaker 1: them where he says, how do you two meet and
Speaker 1: Monica says, oh, I did some carpentry work at the
Speaker 1: women's shelter, and I do it for free and I
Speaker 1: helped fix it up. And I'm on, I'm actually on
Speaker 1: the board there now, and he says, oh, it's Dr
Speaker 1: Schaefer on board to Mona says nope, and that they
Speaker 1: never talked and they never talked about it again. Yeah, which, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the real m vps of this book are
Speaker 1: Dr Shafer and Dr Patel. Yeah, really are the are
Speaker 1: the rocks that that Dominic clings to as he tries
Speaker 1: to become a better person. I will say not to
Speaker 1: like I love that Dr Patel was able to help Dominic,
Speaker 1: but I did feel like a twinge of Orientalism with
Speaker 1: the whole way that Dr Patel was presented in the book,
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, she has all this was Eastern
Speaker 1: wisdom about Shiva the destroyer and how right life is
Speaker 1: a river, and I was like, m I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that it's important to bring your own experience to
Speaker 1: the way that you do therapy with people, and like,
Speaker 1: if she is a Hindu, then great, I think that
Speaker 1: it's good for her to use analogies from her own
Speaker 1: life experience to help like illustrate things. But it did
Speaker 1: feel like very other ring and it's like, ah, you
Speaker 1: have tried very hard to learn in the ways of
Speaker 1: the Italians. Now learn in the ways of the Indians. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely wear some character development fell for more of
Speaker 1: a stereotyped side of things, Like even even with Monica,
Speaker 1: who has who has to be? It just made me laugh.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, my gosh, she's a carpenter and
Speaker 1: and her business is called Women's Work with a yeah,
Speaker 1: and you knew right away you're like Dr Schaefer because
Speaker 1: of course she wears overalls. That's like she's a lesbian
Speaker 1: lesbian overalls. I mean, I will say Anne M. Martin
Speaker 1: did some very coded stuff with Christie in The Babysitters Club,
Speaker 1: where I'm that Christie is a lesbian. She coaches a
Speaker 1: softball team and she never wears dresses, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you got that across. That happened that like like the
Speaker 1: gay character gave ever gave people as just like a
Speaker 1: two different and are pedophiles sex offenders. I will say, gman,
Speaker 1: do not come to the real The real lesbian m
Speaker 1: v P though, is prosperitous brain oh yeah, Prosperin. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I don't know why I keep saying Prospertine. Okay, it's
Speaker 1: fine for it's going to be a thing where we like,
Speaker 1: you know, when I first read Harry Potter, I thought
Speaker 1: it was hermi own and we're going to find out
Speaker 1: that Prosperine is like Prosperine Prosperin in the Actually I
Speaker 1: looked up I've been like trolling the IMDb page and
Speaker 1: they change her name for the show. They name her Prosperina.
Speaker 1: One more thing from the TV show I haven't finished,
Speaker 1: but I did. I clicked on a link that was like,
Speaker 1: how the ending of the TV show is different from
Speaker 1: the ending of the movie. Can I spoil? Okay, don't,
Speaker 1: don't listen if you're on a spoil but um, And
Speaker 1: I like this um because I read it and I
Speaker 1: read an interview with the showrunner who was describing why
Speaker 1: he did this. It ends without him and Dessa getting
Speaker 1: back together. It ends just with him joining her volunteering
Speaker 1: at the children in the hospital. So the doors the
Speaker 1: doors open that you know, maybe you can fill in
Speaker 1: the blanks down the line that that happens, but they
Speaker 1: you know, she is healing and interacting with children and
Speaker 1: he joins her in the hospital. Yes, does he still
Speaker 1: get a million dollars? I don't know. I didn't read
Speaker 1: that part. It just they just we're talking about the
Speaker 1: relationship with with Dessa. I imagine we probably also you know,
Speaker 1: gets money from the Laconic Nation, and maybe I'll just
Speaker 1: still gets Tiffany. Um um. He does not. I like
Speaker 1: that much better. In the show, he does not what
Speaker 1: happens to Tiffany at the end, she doesn't exist. So
Speaker 1: Joy does not die. Not in the TV show. I
Speaker 1: kind of unless I was like in the bathroom and
Speaker 1: there was some sort of voiceover of like Joy stand Now.
Speaker 1: There's so much tragedy and so many characters in this
Speaker 1: book that like, yeah, to be a mini series, you
Speaker 1: don't need Joy coming back with aids that. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I also, he could just get his vasectomy reversed, Like
Speaker 1: it is very much a possibility. It's not like this
Speaker 1: is the only way they could ever have a child again,
Speaker 1: and how wonderful literally possible. Yeah, he talks about how
Speaker 1: we could get a reversed. I guess, yes, reversed. There
Speaker 1: you go. I think thematically in the book, like there's
Speaker 1: so much in the book about learning to be a
Speaker 1: father if it's not your biological child. And I think
Speaker 1: adopting is a wonderful thing and that's great, but I
Speaker 1: I thought it was a little convenient. It's really convenient.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm sorry. Um. I also think that
Speaker 1: this is a healthy will tended to baby that has
Speaker 1: not suffered through any trauma. There will not be a
Speaker 1: problem getting people to adopt a baby who had gorgeous
Speaker 1: parents and is perfectly healthy. Like, well, if they ever
Speaker 1: found out that the parents were indeed blood related, that
Speaker 1: an issue, that's a good point, all right, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what if they found out, it's nice like, look,
Speaker 1: Dessa deserves to be a mom and should be a mom,
Speaker 1: and if Dessa wants to adopt this baby, good, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how I'll s frame it in mind. That's a
Speaker 1: deserves whatever she wants. What was upsetting to me about
Speaker 1: the show adaptation is the fact that they did not
Speaker 1: have the part about Ralph Drinkwater and the police. They
Speaker 1: completely erased that, and they made it seem like they
Speaker 1: still had the moment where they're in he's like replacing
Speaker 1: the light bulb and they're in hatch and he shows
Speaker 1: him that Thomas is outside, and he says like, oh,
Speaker 1: getting your clearance shouldn't be a pro them because I
Speaker 1: bet your records white boy white. And that doesn't hit
Speaker 1: the same way when you know that Ralph has a
Speaker 1: record because of Dominant, So he just says that to
Speaker 1: be an asshole for no reason. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's they still have the thing with Penny Ann and
Speaker 1: him getting penny and suspended right before she's murdered. But
Speaker 1: then it makes it seem like Ralph is holding onto
Speaker 1: a grudge from third grade. Yeah, no, Bill, I mean
Speaker 1: if it resulted in your sister's murder, I think that's
Speaker 1: an understandable grudge to hold on, but it's a bigger grudge.
Speaker 1: But there is more that is more recent, and that
Speaker 1: is also more related to the specific phrase, I bet
Speaker 1: your record is white boy white. Do they go into
Speaker 1: that Ralph was, Do they go into Dell? No, they
Speaker 1: didn't because they completely erased the work the public works. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they made it seem like the last time that Dominic
Speaker 1: had seen Ralph drinkwater was on graduation. Yeah. That's disappointing
Speaker 1: because you also don't need to go to the work
Speaker 1: to have that because it could just be Leo and
Speaker 1: Dominic just getting stoned, like hanging out, you know, and
Speaker 1: not and like excluding Thomas, like it could have been
Speaker 1: really easy to to have that piece and just blaming
Speaker 1: Ralph drinkwater because she's the only person of color they know. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: And I feel like it absolves I felt like the
Speaker 1: show absolved Dominic by erasing it from the book. From
Speaker 1: the book adaptation, um a lot of his misogyny, so
Speaker 1: like they completely cut out that scene when he's in
Speaker 1: Dr Cheffer's office and it is Sheffer, not Schaefer. I
Speaker 1: was the one who was like, it's Schaefer, guys, and
Speaker 1: I was wrong. Um, I will admit to being wrong.
Speaker 1: But they cut out that moment where Dr Sheffer or
Speaker 1: she's not a doctor, but Shepherd is like oh um,
Speaker 1: Dr Patel and then he's like, oh, let me talk
Speaker 1: to him, and he's like, wrong, she's a lady. And
Speaker 1: then it's like, oh well, Dr so and so let
Speaker 1: me talk to him. It's like, wrong, she's also a lady.
Speaker 1: They got rid of that. Then I think, do they
Speaker 1: have the rape of Dessa, because that is a moment
Speaker 1: just like watching the hand be brutalized is much more brutal.
Speaker 1: I think seeing your protagonist Mark Ruffalo um unambiguously rape
Speaker 1: a woman with your eyes, it would make it almost
Speaker 1: impossible too. Then root for him for the rest of
Speaker 1: the mini series. We're in a book, You're like, that's horrible,
Speaker 1: but there is a slight distance I think in reading
Speaker 1: a book for seeing something on screen, well, and you
Speaker 1: also you were in his head the whole time, and
Speaker 1: so even though it's repulsive, it is from his point
Speaker 1: of view, which is which allows you to not feel
Speaker 1: I mean, you feel horrible obviously, but to see it
Speaker 1: without just seeing a woman being raped is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: not great for anyone. I don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: see Mark Ruffalo rape a woman. Well it wasn't. Mark
Speaker 1: Ruffalo also have a younger version of him, who I
Speaker 1: still always think that it's witchcraft when they have the
Speaker 1: same person play twins like parent Trump really fucked me
Speaker 1: up because I thought that Lindsay Lohan was a twin
Speaker 1: for years today. Did they do a a social network
Speaker 1: where they put his face on someone else's face? I
Speaker 1: don't think so, especially because Mark Ruffalo actually gained thirty
Speaker 1: pounds to play Thomas. I really like that his physical
Speaker 1: just because I only saw the first two episodes. His
Speaker 1: performance is really good and different between the two of
Speaker 1: the vocally, physically he I mean a plus Ruffalo. And
Speaker 1: I read something online that said this show is hard
Speaker 1: to watch because it's traumatic, but it's worth tuning in
Speaker 1: because of Mark Ruffalo's performance, and I would say I agree.
Speaker 1: And I think that the book is hard to read
Speaker 1: because it's traumatic, but I think that Wally Lamb does
Speaker 1: a good job of writing it and making compelling characters
Speaker 1: that even if you don't like, you still want to
Speaker 1: know more about. So I think that it's a good book.
Speaker 1: I actually like the book better than the four episodes
Speaker 1: of the show that I've seen so far, four out
Speaker 1: of six, and the exactly it feels like a lot
Speaker 1: of the nuance was washed over in the show, and
Speaker 1: like this is very tiny. But I hate that they
Speaker 1: didn't make Dessa a college student on the show. She
Speaker 1: was just working at the bar, and they got rid
Speaker 1: of the fact that she was in college and the
Speaker 1: reason that he was trying to get a car and
Speaker 1: everything was so that he could go to her college
Speaker 1: to visit her, and they just had her working at
Speaker 1: the bar in like their college town or near their
Speaker 1: college town, and he was like, Oh, I was trying
Speaker 1: to get a car so I could like go and
Speaker 1: visit Dessa across the river while she was doing this
Speaker 1: like manual labor. And they didn't have the class differential
Speaker 1: between them also, and that power was really interesting, that
Speaker 1: power dynamic. You're so right that he may be in
Speaker 1: subtle ways that even he didn't want to acknowledge felt
Speaker 1: emasculated by that. Mm hmmm. So I mean, and the
Speaker 1: thing is like we had talked in the group chat
Speaker 1: about how it was supposed to be a movie initially,
Speaker 1: and he definitely couldn't have all of that in a movie.
Speaker 1: But I also feel like there was room to possibly
Speaker 1: have more episodes. I mean, there were only six episodes.
Speaker 1: A typical HBO season is like eight to ten. I
Speaker 1: think there's a mini it's a mini series. And Mark
Speaker 1: Ruffalo's like, I'm gonna get that mini series, Emmy. He's
Speaker 1: like playing two characters playing a schizophrenic twin. Gimme datman series, Emmy.
Speaker 1: There might be there might be like rules of what
Speaker 1: constitutes a mini series as opposed to a TV show.
Speaker 1: I think, well, because I think they have it as
Speaker 1: limited series American horror stories also considered a limited series. Weird,
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean, I'm sure it was just a choice,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I feel like with limited series, it's
Speaker 1: it's just that it's like one story, right, I feel
Speaker 1: like that is much better. I don't want like a
Speaker 1: Handmaid's Tale style season two where they decided to don't
Speaker 1: need the book anymore, We're gonna make help what happens
Speaker 1: to Dominica Guessa going forward? More like Reasons Why, which
Speaker 1: the book is literally just Clay listening to the tapes
Speaker 1: and riding his bike around town, and the show is
Speaker 1: like what if everyone gets sexually assaulted? And also there
Speaker 1: are guns, And I'm just like, this show is horrifying.
Speaker 1: Just just one season. It is good to go as
Speaker 1: far as the book ticks you, and then we're done
Speaker 1: from I think you are really smart and like talking
Speaker 1: about that, like even yea, yes, always that this book
Speaker 1: is really well written and I found incredibly compelling even
Speaker 1: when it was hard to read, and even when I
Speaker 1: didn't like the characters, because it was so well written,
Speaker 1: and like it's the book itself is a rich text,
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of layers with like mirrors and
Speaker 1: twinning and religion and fatherhood, and I do like a
Speaker 1: book that I I read and I put down and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I can't wait to talk about this, so
Speaker 1: thank you all. I will firmly state no book needs
Speaker 1: to be this long. An insanely long book. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: in nine hundred pages. It didn't make me want to
Speaker 1: see read um Wally Lamb's other very famous one, She's
Speaker 1: come undone because I thought it would be really interesting
Speaker 1: to see something that is more about the female experience.
Speaker 1: And one problem in my hand with the TV show,
Speaker 1: and it's really brief. I felt like the TV show
Speaker 1: was mostly about this man and his schizophrenic brother, and
Speaker 1: the book is about so much more than that. It's
Speaker 1: about masculinity and the prison masculinity can become, and how
Speaker 1: we try to achieve love and race in America and
Speaker 1: how white people can abuse their power towards people of color,
Speaker 1: and um, that kind of understandably because you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's a show that is just about Mark Ruffalo winning
Speaker 1: an Emmy, which he will definitely do. He's great in it,
Speaker 1: But it feels like Mark Ruffalo Twins. He's playing Twins. Um,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Um, yeah, it doesn't feel like it is
Speaker 1: encompassing the entire inner world of this man, the way
Speaker 1: the book is able to m hmmmm. I will say
Speaker 1: watching it after having finished the book was really great
Speaker 1: because I could see some of the themes coming out
Speaker 1: early on and the ways that they had adapted it.
Speaker 1: So like when Thomas cuts his hand off and he's
Speaker 1: in the hospital and he's begging them not to reattach
Speaker 1: it in the show, he shouts out, I need you
Speaker 1: to defend me for once. I need you to defend
Speaker 1: me for once, which is a very explicit statement of
Speaker 1: the theme that Dominic never defends him, and this is
Speaker 1: in fact the first time that he ever is like,
Speaker 1: you know what, he has agency. He gets to keep
Speaker 1: his hand or lose his hand as he so decides.
Speaker 1: And um, I'll there was a visual like Danny, you
Speaker 1: were just talking about twinning in mirrors. Uh, there's that
Speaker 1: scene that happens early on when the mom is sick
Speaker 1: and and Thomas is like, I thought we were going
Speaker 1: to go to McDonald's and then he gets out of
Speaker 1: the car and runs away and they find him a
Speaker 1: Dominic finds him in the river, standing in a river,
Speaker 1: and then they go to McDonald's and then at the
Speaker 1: end of Thomas's life, he goes to McDonald's gets that
Speaker 1: happy meal, and then later is found in the river.
Speaker 1: And I thought that was a really interesting mirror image.
Speaker 1: I like thinking that if Mark Ruffalo does win an
Speaker 1: Emmy for this, that it starts a trend for all
Speaker 1: A List actors to find the twin story for them too. Then,
Speaker 1: Like I just love thinking of Meryl Street being like
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do if I'm gonna find a twin story,
Speaker 1: and this is gonna be the one I'm going to
Speaker 1: use to win another Oscar. Like I want there to
Speaker 1: be a trend of all of these A List actors
Speaker 1: just finding the perfect Well just did that. It is Franklin.
Speaker 1: It is the worst part of the tu such a
Speaker 1: good show by the final season, And the most irritating
Speaker 1: part is James Franco is a twin to James Are
Speaker 1: he goes one is enough? Honestly, I don't, I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't even talk about James Franco. No. I think
Speaker 1: it's just a lesson that we all as writers need
Speaker 1: to start writing twins scripts and twin books, because then
Speaker 1: we'll get A List actors to be in our shows. Okay, here, here, here, here, Well,
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a lovely note to end on.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to
Speaker 1: anyone else who read through this book. God bless you
Speaker 1: for making it through all the drama and suffering. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is really fun. That's our show for the week.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with
Speaker 1: three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley
Speaker 1: Right Drama down Qua is that on the drama. Melissa
Speaker 1: Hunter is at Melissa f t W and Tan Tran
Speaker 1: is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she
Speaker 1: is on Insta at Pink Tina. Our executive producer is
Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotas, and we're produced and edited by Mike Johns.
Speaker 1: Special things to David Wasserman. And if you're getting ready
Speaker 1: to read our next book, we're diving into Lovecraft Country
Speaker 1: by Matt Ruff, which is being adapted on HBO for
Speaker 1: next week. We just discussed part one, like the first
Speaker 1: section of the book, which is like page one to
Speaker 1: one oh six, So don't worry, you don't have to
Speaker 1: read too far or don't read it all again. This
Speaker 1: is an English class. There's no quiz and listen next week.
Speaker 1: Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio