1
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:16,720
Speaker 1: Welcome to Big Hall Talk, everybody.

2
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,960
Speaker 2: I'm Ethan Badowski, and I don't care how many people

3
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,760
Speaker 2: make the Hall of Fame, so long as the right

4
00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 2: ones do. We've got a very special episode for you today.

5
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,280
Speaker 2: I see it lapping there at the camera. We've got

6
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 2: our first guest on the show who will be discussing

7
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 2: their own Hall of Fame ballot. And I'm very excited

8
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,040
Speaker 2: about this one because this is the guy. He helped

9
00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,320
Speaker 2: me get into this whole Hall of Fame thing. He

10
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 2: started the Larry Walker fanaticism himself. He introduced me to Larry.

11
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,480
Speaker 2: There is nobody I would want to be the first

12
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 2: guest on Big Hall of Talk more than this guy,

13
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 2: one of my best friends in the world and one

14
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 2: of the only people all reluctantly admit knows as much

15
00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 2: about sports as I do. Alex Reeveman, Welcome to Big

16
00:00:58,160 --> 00:00:58,520
Speaker 2: Hall Talk.

17
00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,280
Speaker 1: How are we doing today? I'm doing gratt, Ethan. I

18
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,080
Speaker 1: appreciate you having me on the show. You know, I'm excited.

19
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,640
Speaker 1: We've been planning this out for a while.

20
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 2: We're not gonna be able to stop laughing at each

21
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,839
Speaker 2: other the entire episode because we can't take each other seriously.

22
00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,760
Speaker 2: But let's try and avoid too much banter and just

23
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 2: too much arsenal and get through to the rest of

24
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,759
Speaker 2: this episode. Let's let's let's get going. So the first

25
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 2: thing I want to start on before we get into

26
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,959
Speaker 2: your actual ballot, give us your overall thoughts on the

27
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame. I know you're not a small Hall guy,

28
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,560
Speaker 2: but we kind of disagree on the parameters of the

29
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame. So would you say you're a big

30
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 2: Hall guy? Are you kind of somewhere in the middle.

31
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,400
Speaker 1: I'd say I'm more of like a medium Hall guy

32
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 1: because I believe, like, if you're one of the best

33
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,440
Speaker 1: players in the generation and like there's no red flags

34
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 1: or anything, you should get in. Yeah. Like there are

35
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 1: players who multiple like MVPs, multiple like high sight young finishes,

36
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 1: and they're not getting in the Hall of Fame, and

37
00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: I can't I can't understand that.

38
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,760
Speaker 2: Okay, So where are you on you know some of

39
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 2: these issues in terms of guys not getting in. Obviously

40
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 2: the big ones are Bonds and Clemens and Shilling in

41
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,799
Speaker 2: terms of steroids, and you know, character issues because there

42
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 2: is the character clause in voting. But I know that

43
00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 2: we kind of are lenient on that.

44
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess I'll address the character clause first

45
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,000
Speaker 1: because I think you and I both are on the

46
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: same page about Kurt Shilling. He's I mean, he's a

47
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 1: despicable person on AULI yeah, he's a terrible guy. Yeah,

48
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean there are I mean not that this makes

49
00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: it right, but there are terrible people in the Hall

50
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:45,560
Speaker 1: of Fame. There are racists, there are abusive husbands, you know,

51
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,959
Speaker 1: and yeah, people who have cheated in the past who

52
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 1: have also gotten in. And while like these things obviously

53
00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,720
Speaker 1: are like different levels, I feel like with Kurt Schilling,

54
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 1: like he was one of the best pictures of his generation,

55
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,799
Speaker 1: we have to look at like it's a baseball museum

56
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,080
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, and we have to

57
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 1: look at the baseball aspect of Kurt Shilling, you know.

58
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,079
Speaker 2: I think there it's important to acknowledge that side of people.

59
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,560
Speaker 2: You know, maybe there should be something on their plaque,

60
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 2: Barry Bonds's plaque if you really want to when you

61
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,600
Speaker 2: let him in, if they do, if you want to

62
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 2: acknowledge the fact that he was involved in the steroid

63
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 2: you know, in the steroid controversy. But I think that,

64
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,720
Speaker 2: like you said, there are levels and it's important to

65
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,200
Speaker 2: acknowledge that there are levels, but we've also moved forward

66
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 2: in you know ty Cobb. I don't know if ty

67
00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,000
Speaker 2: Cob would make the Hall of Fame today because of

68
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 2: his connections to the KKK, you know what I mean. So, yes,

69
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 2: he made it way back Whenever ty Cobb made the

70
00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,480
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame, I couldn't tell you the year, but

71
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,160
Speaker 2: I'm not sure he would make it today. So yeah, exactly,

72
00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,400
Speaker 2: there are all those guys back then, you know.

73
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,280
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is we kind of

74
00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 1: have to.

75
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 2: Evaluate it under today's world, which is why Shilling is

76
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 2: even this close. But yeah, I think I agree with

77
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,440
Speaker 2: you that at the end of the day, he is

78
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 2: he was on my ballot this year, and I would

79
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 2: have to really sit down and think about whether I

80
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 2: would take it off next year.

81
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Ethan, And I mean you obviously make a really

82
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,239
Speaker 1: good point here, because like, if he didn't have these issues,

83
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 1: he's first ballot, second ballot, third ballot, whatever, He's already

84
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame, and the discussion on what

85
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 1: kind of person he is in the past, I mean,

86
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: he obviously brought all this upon himself, and I mean,

87
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 1: this is the price you pay for being a bad person.

88
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 2: And I think the acknowledgment that he brought this upon

89
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:44,800
Speaker 2: himself is something that.

90
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,040
Speaker 1: We all need to acknowledge.

91
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 2: And you know, Kurt feeling, Kurt Chilling kind of wants

92
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 2: us to feel bad for him, and he, you know,

93
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 2: he did he did what you said, and he kind

94
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 2: of I'm not saying you're not doing the same thing

95
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 2: here where it's you know, what I did is not

96
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,520
Speaker 2: as bad as cheap what he he did is not

97
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 2: as bad as cheating, or you know, because what he

98
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 2: did is.

99
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:04,799
Speaker 1: Way worse than cheating.

100
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,600
Speaker 2: But it's important to acknowledge that he brought it upon

101
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 2: himself and nobody should feel bad for him because and

102
00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,679
Speaker 2: he wants us to feel bad by playing this victim

103
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 2: of what look at all these guys that are in

104
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame and what I did is in

105
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 2: as bad.

106
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:19,320
Speaker 1: That's not true.

107
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,359
Speaker 2: But I want to I want to move forward in

108
00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 2: this discussion because we'll get to Shilling in a minute.

109
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,279
Speaker 2: But the one thing I wanted to ask you about,

110
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,359
Speaker 2: is there a war limitation that you set to be

111
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,600
Speaker 2: in the Hall of Fame? Is there a certain threshold

112
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 2: that each guy has to.

113
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 1: Cross, So there's It's definitely something I look at. But

114
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 1: I mean, WAR is obviously a flawed stat, so I

115
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,080
Speaker 1: don't want it to be the end all be all.

116
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,760
Speaker 1: I usually like to have guys over like sixty five WAR.

117
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,320
Speaker 1: I mean that's just like a number I'm throwing out there,

118
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 1: and usually over sixty WAR to get me to really consider.

119
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,920
Speaker 1: But I mean, you have to look at their resume,

120
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: like outside of that, you have to look at their allocates.

121
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,760
Speaker 1: You have to look at their situation and like they're

122
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,479
Speaker 1: what stadium they played, and they're hitting stats, how long

123
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,320
Speaker 1: they were good for and you know, I mean some

124
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 1: guys had a really good peek and maybe they won

125
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 1: an MVP or came in top two or three, but

126
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,320
Speaker 1: you know, maybe some guys played for twenty years and

127
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,520
Speaker 1: they sort of had a few good years that really

128
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 1: push them over the top. So let's just start jumping

129
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 1: into it.

130
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,720
Speaker 2: And I have one more question, and I know the answer,

131
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 2: but everybody else needs to know the answer is a

132
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 2: Hall of Famer.

133
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. We'll do an Omar episode down the road.

134
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 2: I'm obviously a little bit more passionate about that one, but.

135
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me. I just wanted to make sure, yeah,

136
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,159
Speaker 1: hit me hit me. Is Andrewson Simmons a Hall of Famer?

137
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: No, not at this point, at least less unless Andrewton

138
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 2: Simmons starts tapping into some unknown hitting potential then no.

139
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:56,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, so let's let's just jump right into it. Reeven,

140
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 2: start us off. You're gonna do it a little differently.

141
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,440
Speaker 2: You're not going to go in alphabetical order. Explain to

142
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,719
Speaker 2: the folks at home how you're going to be revealing

143
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 2: your ballot today and then and then go right ahead.

144
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna reveal my ballot in terms of tears

145
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,280
Speaker 1: because I think that everyone has a different standard for

146
00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame, And I mean I appreciate how

147
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 1: like sometimes people are like, hey, like this guy was

148
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 1: a great player of his generation. He has to be remembered.

149
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 1: He should be in the Hall of Fame. Or no,

150
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame is only for this select like

151
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 1: elite players, and I appreciate that's the cool thing about

152
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,880
Speaker 1: them will be Hall of Fame instead of like the NFL. NFL,

153
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: you only have five five people you could vote for,

154
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,000
Speaker 1: so there's not really a big haul or small hall

155
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,160
Speaker 1: kind of thing. It's just whoever you think deserves it

156
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:44,960
Speaker 1: most and.

157
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 2: It feels like the same amount of guys get into

158
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 2: the NFL Hall of Fame every year. And I definitely

159
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 2: think that the MLB because of the you know, how

160
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 2: many positions there are, it's more subjective than objective.

161
00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's absolutely more subjective and everyone has a different

162
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: like criteria, which is why I want to separate it

163
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 1: into like players who I think I have no doubts about,

164
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 1: some player who I also have very limited doubts about,

165
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 1: and you know, so on and so forth to where

166
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,320
Speaker 1: some guys have their their case are honestly toss ups

167
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:18,520
Speaker 1: to me.

168
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 2: So let's so, how many tiers do you have?

169
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: So I had, I had four tiers? Okay, so what

170
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,080
Speaker 1: are they? So Tier one is Barry Bonds and Roger

171
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,920
Speaker 1: Clemens tiers? Well, no tell me what?

172
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 2: Tell me, Like, don't tell me which guy because we

173
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 2: gotta save the secret. I know everybody knows you're gonna

174
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 2: have Bonds and Clements, so that's fine. But what is what?

175
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 2: What is each what is the criteria for each year?

176
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 1: So my Tier one? Uh, these are like generational players.

177
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 1: These were the best at their positions in the league.

178
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,080
Speaker 1: These are all time great players. And the fact that

179
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,439
Speaker 1: I mean saying saying the fact that they're it's ridiculous.

180
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 1: I don't know why we have to discuss it every

181
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: single year. It's absolutely absolutely Tier two. This guy is

182
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 1: a clear Hall of Famer to me. He was one

183
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 1: of the best UH pictures of his generation and took

184
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 1: it up to another level in the postseason. Tier three.

185
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,679
Speaker 1: So these guys are all These two are very different players,

186
00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 1: but I think they were both clear Hall of Famers

187
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,439
Speaker 1: because they were both one of the best at what

188
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 1: they did for their entire career and they got there

189
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 1: and very They might not have the counting stats in

190
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 1: terms of like hits or whatever, but their allocids show

191
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 1: like how special players they were, and I mean, if

192
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,160
Speaker 1: any franchise had them in their peak, they were very grateful.

193
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,559
Speaker 1: And then let me make it Tier four. Tier four.

194
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,240
Speaker 1: So these guys are borderline to me. There is like

195
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,440
Speaker 1: they might not have seemed like Hall of Famers, or

196
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 1: there might be one like very big red flag, but

197
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,719
Speaker 1: I think that they deserve to.

198
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,920
Speaker 2: Be in all right, And then before we get it,

199
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 2: we'll start it.

200
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 1: We'll start it. Yeah, we'll work our way down.

201
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,640
Speaker 2: So before we get into Tier one, who you already revealed,

202
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,960
Speaker 2: and you can throw me a crazy Berry bond set

203
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,559
Speaker 2: or something if you want to. But before you get

204
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,840
Speaker 2: into tier one, I want to know who just missed,

205
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,400
Speaker 2: who was on the outside. Where is that line you

206
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,559
Speaker 2: draw kind of between Hall of Fame and Hall of

207
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,400
Speaker 2: very good?

208
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 1: So the guys had just missed, I well, I'll separate it.

209
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 1: So Sammy Sosa was the first guy off, Billy Wagner

210
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 1: was another guy that just got left off, and also

211
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,680
Speaker 1: many Ramiras which was not for not for performance reasons.

212
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 2: So you're leaving Manny off because of his two positive tests.

213
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he failed two tests. And I feel like

214
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 1: at some point you have to draw a line, like

215
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't glorified cheating in the home. I

216
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 1: mean in my opinion, but I mean as a player,

217
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,160
Speaker 1: he was, he was special, Like he's he's one of

218
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,120
Speaker 1: the best hitters I've ever seen. And I was lucky

219
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 1: to be like the end of his career and he's

220
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,120
Speaker 1: one of the best hitters I've ever seen. I'm sure

221
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 1: you feel the same one.

222
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah no, And that's why I still have I still

223
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 2: have many on mine because I think he's just a

224
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,839
Speaker 2: little too good. Like I looked at Robbie's Canoes, and

225
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 2: Robbie Canoe would have been Hall of Hammer, no doubt

226
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,920
Speaker 2: his case. His case isn't quite as good as Manny's,

227
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 2: so for me, it's easier to leave him off. It's

228
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 2: really really tough to leave a guy like Manny out

229
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,319
Speaker 2: of the Hall. But yeah, he's on that borderline, and

230
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 2: he's not in a great position right now in terms

231
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,520
Speaker 2: of his voting. Uh, he didn't get any gain in

232
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 2: voting from last year, so yeah, it's gonna be He's

233
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 2: got a really tough case.

234
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 1: I want to ask if you know Manny was actually

235
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,680
Speaker 1: in my tier two okay, if he's his performance wow,

236
00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 1: So if.

237
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 2: He hadn't been too time story testster he would have

238
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 2: been in an air tier two. Okay, let's go to Sosa.

239
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,480
Speaker 2: So Sosa, you're looking at his career before he really

240
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,040
Speaker 2: took off, and you're saying that wasn't good enough for

241
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 2: me with his peak added.

242
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 1: So Samy's a really tough case because I mean, this

243
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: might be a little unfair, but I feel like so

244
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,720
Speaker 1: much of his production was steroidated. Like it's not like

245
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 1: Barry Bonds or Clements, where they were the best at

246
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 1: what they did. Right, like they I mean they have

247
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,320
Speaker 1: bonds to seven MVPs. Clemens has seven cy youngs. In

248
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,199
Speaker 1: my opinion, they are definitely the best their position, right,

249
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 1: no best position player in the best picture of all time. Right.

250
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 1: But I mean even with so says like very suspicious game,

251
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 1: he's still like wink wink. Yeah, he still struggled at

252
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 1: a lot of like he wasn't a great defender. He

253
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: wasn't he wasn't really great at you know, much else

254
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 1: besides hitting bombs. Sure, I mean he had a good

255
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 1: eye and he was a good player besides that. But yeah,

256
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,760
Speaker 1: I mean it's so it's so suspicions like all his

257
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 1: great years were like with steroids, right, and it's and

258
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 1: even then, Yeah, Sosa is.

259
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,440
Speaker 2: One of I would say, one of the most highly

260
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,080
Speaker 2: debated cases because of that, because he was so great

261
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 2: at his peak, but it was so obvious what was

262
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,440
Speaker 2: happening at his peak that it's hard.

263
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 1: You know.

264
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,120
Speaker 2: It's the same thing with Maguire, but Maguire might have

265
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 2: been a little bit better than Sosa was before the peak.

266
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 2: So Sosa is an interesting one.

267
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: Now, Sosa I had his career war is a lot

268
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 1: lower than the average, right, Fielder, his jaws a lot lower,

269
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 1: and even with all his like all his like peak

270
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: seasons that inflated him, he only had a one ps plus,

271
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 1: which is good. It's very good. It's better than some

272
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 1: players I voted for. But those players I voted for,

273
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 1: didn't you steroids right?

274
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 2: And they have other aspects of their game as well. Yeah,

275
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 2: now the last guy. I really want to ask you

276
00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,080
Speaker 2: about this one because you we have gone back and

277
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 2: forth on this one a lot. This is one of

278
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,480
Speaker 2: the ones that we debate a lot. So Billy Wagner.

279
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 2: I have Billy Wagner on. I think he's the greatest

280
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 2: left handed reliever of all time. I know that you're

281
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 2: not big on relievers.

282
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:24,960
Speaker 1: In the Hall of Fame.

283
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 2: Tell me why, and tell me why Billy isn't one

284
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 2: of the ones that makes the cut.

285
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like with Billy Wagner, I don't

286
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 1: really like putting relievers in which I mean, I'm midtly

287
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 1: it's sort of a bias. And I don't think he

288
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 1: was as good. He obviously wasn't as good as Mariana.

289
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 1: He wasn't as good as Trevor Hoffman either, I believe,

290
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 1: and I mean also his career wars below the average

291
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,400
Speaker 1: reliever and stuff like that. But I don't know, like

292
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,600
Speaker 1: I feel like the best pitchers like they're pitching as

293
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 1: a starter because they're, you know, one of the best

294
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: pitchers on the team. They have like they can go six, seven,

295
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 1: eight innings if they need to. And I mean, I

296
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 1: guess relievers are almost like a niche position. Yeah, I agree,

297
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 1: I agree with that.

298
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 2: And relievers have been shown to be very volatile and

299
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 2: not very valuable. You can kind of just pick up

300
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 2: a reliever and have them be really good for two

301
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 2: or three years and then they're not good anymore, so

302
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,960
Speaker 2: they're kind of replaceable.

303
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 1: So how much value does a good reliever really have?

304
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: And yes, Wagner does only have twenty five like twenty

305
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 2: four or twenty five war I think, right, But you

306
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,480
Speaker 2: can't cross this stretch, you you know, you have to

307
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 2: be so you believe for relievers, you have to be

308
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 2: so far and above everybody else. You have to be

309
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 2: a rivera a Hoffman rolly fingers type to be in.

310
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know, like Wagner was psych as good

311
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 1: as Hoffman on like right stats or whatever, but he

312
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 1: also didn't pitch as many innings which I mean maybe

313
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I would have voted for

314
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 1: Trevor Hoffman. I probably would have because he was so dominant,

315
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,480
Speaker 1: but yeah, I know he was this he was the

316
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 1: Saves leader before Rivera.

317
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 2: So those are the two guys, and those are the

318
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 2: guys that Wagner will always be compared to and should

319
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 2: be compared to. He he you know, pitched a big

320
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 2: part of his career with those guys, So it's it's

321
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 2: a fair comparison. And I understand, you know, there are

322
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 2: people that don't see relievers. So Sosa, Wagner and uh

323
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,080
Speaker 2: Manny are the guys that just miss for you. Let's

324
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 2: jump in tier four. These are your uh or tier one. Sorry,

325
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,400
Speaker 2: let's start at the top. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.

326
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,520
Speaker 2: It's it's too obvious to even.

327
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 1: Talk about, right, Yeah, it's too obvious to talk about.

328
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,760
Speaker 1: But I mean, do you have a do you have

329
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: a Barry stat? For me?

330
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 2: Because I actually forgot to do two bonds in a

331
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 2: lie this week? So do you have a really do

332
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 2: you have a Bond stat off the top of your head?

333
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 1: For me? H? Well, I mean everyone has, hold on,

334
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,239
Speaker 1: I didn't reveal the I didn't reveal the answer to

335
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,399
Speaker 1: do bonds and a lie, so this is perfect. We

336
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 1: can do last week's two bonds and a lie. So

337
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 1: let's me pull this up here. Let me pull this

338
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 1: up here, and I'm not I'm not looking at anything

339
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: to be clear, So I'm I'm waiting for you to oh,

340
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:24,399
Speaker 1: I'm giving you the two.

341
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 2: This is no, no, no, no, no, this is what's it called.

342
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 2: I didn't do last week's, so here we go. Okay,

343
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 2: I did not reveal the answer from last last episode,

344
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,360
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna reveal it here as the fill in

345
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,879
Speaker 2: for this week's and also a fill in for your

346
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,639
Speaker 2: Barry Bonds stat. So the three stats that I gave

347
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,639
Speaker 2: last week, one of them was a lie. The first

348
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 2: one was in two thousand and four, Barry Bonds reached

349
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 2: base more times than he had at bats. The second

350
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 2: one was Bonds had a higher weight to runs creative

351
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 2: plus in his final season than Usual and Fox in

352
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 2: their whole careers. And the third one is the difference

353
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 2: between Bonds and the next highest number of intentional walks

354
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,400
Speaker 2: in a career is higher than the next player's total

355
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,200
Speaker 2: reaveman which one of these stats is wrong?

356
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,359
Speaker 1: I think the first one is wrong, right, that.

357
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 2: He had more at bats more, he reached base more

358
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,919
Speaker 2: times than he had at bats.

359
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 1: Is that what your that's your guess? Ooh, that's a

360
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 1: hard one. That is true.

361
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 2: The other truth on there is that the difference between

362
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,640
Speaker 2: Bonds and the next highest number of intentional walks, so

363
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 2: Albert Pouhols is second highest on the intentional walks list,

364
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,400
Speaker 2: his total number of intentional walks is lower than the

365
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: gap between Barry Bonds and his number of intentional walks.

366
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 1: So the stat that was.

367
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 2: A lie is that Bonds had a higher weighted runs

368
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,919
Speaker 2: creti plus in his final season than Usual and Fox

369
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 2: had their in their whole careers. However, it was only

370
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 2: one point les Usual and Fox had one fifty eight

371
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 2: weighted run stret a plus in their careers. Bonds had

372
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: a one fifty seven weighted run scret a plus in

373
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 2: his final season season in two thousand and seven. He

374
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 2: also had an OPS over one thousand.

375
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 1: There, you got it there. That that's that's just it right,

376
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: that's Barry. That's Arry. I'm the highest OPS plus in

377
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 1: the league is last year.

378
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 2: He was that good for that long. It's unbelievable. It's unblievable.

379
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 1: I have a Barry Bond stat so give it to me.

380
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,440
Speaker 1: Barry Bonds has the top three OPS plus seasons ever.

381
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 1: Ever does he also have the fifth? He four of

382
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: the top five? He has four of the top five.

383
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: Who's fourth, Who's fourth? Who's fourth? So fourth first single season?

384
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: Is four of the top five OPS plus seasons of

385
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 2: all time, and the top three.

386
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: It's Fred Dunlap. But that doesn't even count. I don't

387
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,639
Speaker 1: even know who that is. He has four of the

388
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 1: top five seasons, uh since World War Two? And the

389
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 1: fourth guy is Ted Williams. Wow, that is crazy. That

390
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,199
Speaker 1: is really something. Wow. Yeah, it it.

391
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 2: There's no reason to even debate it, dude, there's no

392
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 2: reason to debate it. He would have been a Hall

393
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,199
Speaker 2: of Famer before this.

394
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: You know.

395
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 2: It's like you talked about with Sosa. He wasn't a

396
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 2: Hall of famer until he took the steroids. Bonce was a.

397
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,640
Speaker 1: Hall of fame to be a top five player of

398
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 1: all time anyway, from the day he stepped into the league.

399
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: You already want three MVPs and then Clemens seven, Cy Youngs.

400
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: Do we even need to go there? You know what

401
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: I mean?

402
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 2: Like you have anything there besides the fact that he's

403
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 2: arguably the is he is he the greatest picture of

404
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 2: all time?

405
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 1: I think he is. And I think the debate is

406
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,360
Speaker 1: between him and Randy Johnson because Randy had the four

407
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 1: side Youngs and obviously we didn't even debate his Hall

408
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: of fame can right right, best lefty ever? Yeah, best

409
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,719
Speaker 1: left to ever. I mean I wasn't lucky enough to

410
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: like watch his prime, but like I mean, we've all

411
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: seen videos of it. We've all we've all seen the

412
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 1: forsy youngs in a row. It's unbelievable there there.

413
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: Those guys are just Bonds and Clemens and Johnson as well,

414
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: are just guys that you hear their names and you

415
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 2: know they're a Hall of Famer.

416
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. And Roger Clemens I have a couple

417
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 1: of So he won the Triple Crown for Pictures twice

418
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: his career. He will, Yeah, the best era in this

419
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: league seven times. Wait, what is Triple Crown for pictures?

420
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: It's e r A strikeouts and wins probably wins yea.

421
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: And he also won an m v P as a pitcher.

422
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: Guys don't do that, man, Like we had we had

423
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 2: a discussion about who was it a couple of years ago.

424
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: I think Sures was in the debate.

425
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: For m v P a couple of years ago, either grom.

426
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: And and it doesn't happen. It does not happen anymore. Man,

427
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: It used to happen, you know, back in the seventies

428
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 2: and eighties, and that that was also when relievers were

429
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: winning Cy Young's which is a crazy concept to me.

430
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 2: But Pictures and the MVP is a hitter award in

431
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: the fact that some of the guys that have had

432
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 2: great years on the mound, such dominant seasons in the

433
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: past few years, you know, like a Jake Arietta as well,

434
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: could have been in contention for the MVP when he

435
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: won the Cy Young. And the fact that these guys

436
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: haven't won it shows that it's not Uh, Pictures aren't

437
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 2: in contention for it anymore. And I'm fine with that

438
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: because we have the cy Young and Clemens.

439
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: Won more than anybody. Yeah, the only Pictures in my

440
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 1: lifetime who I've seen one MVP was Justin Verlander and

441
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: Clayton Kershaw. Yeah, and I'm not sure it'll happen again. Yeah,

442
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: those guys, in my opinion, they are the two best

443
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: pictures of uh this jouration. Yeah, I agree.

444
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 2: All right, So we've got our your Tier one, your

445
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: Tier one two best two, two best players on the ballot.

446
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: It's obvious the best pitcher and the best hitter of

447
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: all time.

448
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: Tier two.

449
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 2: I think he kind of gave it away. That's fine,

450
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: talk to us about Kurt Schilling.

451
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: So, Kurt Chilling, he pretty much did everything based on

452
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: his career. Well, we're gonna discuss only his career in this. Uh,

453
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: he pretty much did everything besides Winnosi Young and even

454
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: then he finished second Si Young three times, so he

455
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: was just behind, you know, Randy Johnson, uh in Arizona,

456
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: which I mean, that's a ridiculous tandem, that is that

457
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: is pretty crazy, Randy Johnson and Kurt Schilling. I mean

458
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: it won them the World Series. So yeah, so anyone

459
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,199
Speaker 1: was like, hey, how did how did Arizona win the

460
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: World Series? Even though they were an expansion franchise like

461
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: three years before. I'm like, well, they had Randy Johnson

462
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: and Kurt Schilling. That was how did they make that happen?

463
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: They had Matt Williams on that team, they had Luis Gonzalez.

464
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that was a good team.

465
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: Man and the Marlins did it in four years. The

466
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: diamond exited in three, so the Marlins came in in

467
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 2: ninety three, they won in ninety seven. The Diamondbacks seamon

468
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: in ninety eight and one and oh one.

469
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 1: So that is yeah, that is pretty spectacular.

470
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: And that's how you do it with dominance, starting pitching

471
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: and chilling who talked to us one of the best

472
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: playoff pitchers of all time?

473
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so he's arguably the best, honestly, and I

474
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: mean in two point two three era and nineteen careers.

475
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: Starts with a big sample size for the playoffs. That's

476
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: a big sample size. Yeah. Yeah. And also even I

477
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: mean he won a World Series, the Bloody Sock, all

478
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: that stuff.

479
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: I think the other thing with with this Hall of

480
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: Fame stuff is how much do you take into account, Like,

481
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: you know, it sounds stupid, but iconic moments, right, So

482
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: one thing was, you know, some people think that Sosa's

483
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: home run chase kind of pushes him over the edge

484
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 2: just having iconic moments. And one thing, you know, the

485
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: Bloody Sock. Does that kind of help his case a

486
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: little bit?

487
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: I think so, And I think that helped, I mean,

488
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: that helped Sosa's case two because if he wasn't a

489
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: steroid user, I would have voted him in because I'm like, okay, well,

490
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: this guy is a part of baseball history. This guy,

491
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: this guy re revitalized baseball. And I mean, you saw

492
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: the thirty for thirty and.

493
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: I actually haven't yet, but I have meaning to get

494
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 2: to it. I haven't seen it yet, but I've been

495
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: I have been meaning to get to it.

496
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 1: But I heard it. I heard it was great. Yeah, yeah,

497
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: So I watched it thirty for thirty, and I mean

498
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: I can't even understand, like how how crazy like everyone everyone,

499
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: not even like baseball fans, for like following what was

500
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: going on, like they wanted to know if Bonds hit one,

501
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: if McGuire hit one, if Say hit one, and then

502
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: eventually it became between McGuire and Sosa, So those.

503
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: Those you know, and and just as iconic as that

504
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: is the Bloody Sock Game. I mean, yeah, exactly was

505
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: it Marker?

506
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: Was it ketch Up? I think catch?

507
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,719
Speaker 2: It's an iconic game. It's an iconic moment, you know,

508
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: help propel the Red Sox to their first World Series

509
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 2: title in eighty six years. So it you that has

510
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 2: to count for something.

511
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, definitely, definitely, And I mean he's obviously a

512
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: legend there. It's great for Arizona for those years too.

513
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: You don't fault him for not having a cy Young

514
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: because I think that does hurt his case a little bit.

515
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: So I would say it does. But he was second

516
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: in cy Young three times besides Primeio. He was behind

517
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: Primeo Hunts Santana not yeah, the guy was not bad. Yeah,

518
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: and prime Randy Johnson.

519
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: I mean, so he lost to Johnson choice in Santana once.

520
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had an eight point eight war from a

521
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: Baseball reference in two thousand and one, and yeah, he

522
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: was behind Randy Johnson because he had ten.

523
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: Warh and and Bonds probably had like eleven ors something

524
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: that year.

525
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: All right, so chilling.

526
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: We we kind of touched on the character stuff a

527
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: little bit, but I just want to we're not the

528
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: character police, right, like as a Hall of Fame voter,

529
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 2: like you see it as vote on the baseball on

530
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: the merits of their baseball careers. Because this is a

531
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 2: baseball museum.

532
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like I'm telling him to like, you know,

533
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 1: I'm not inviting him into my family or I'm not

534
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: inviting him, or I'm not voting for him for office,

535
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: or I'm not even giving him like a follow on

536
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: Twitter or anything like. I'm just putting him in a

537
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: baseball museum because I think he's one of the best

538
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: baseball players of the two thousands.

539
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 2: I think that's a really simple way to put it,

540
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: and I think you say it perfectly. And the fact

541
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: that we're looking at a museum of baseball and we

542
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: want the best baseball players of.

543
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: All time, So put Barry Bonds and Roger Clemons.

544
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 2: Yes, let's go to tier three. You said there are

545
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: two guys in tier three. Just remind me of what

546
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: this criteria is here.

547
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: So this criteria, to me, I think they're pretty easy

548
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: Hall of famers because they were one of for a

549
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: good time period. They were one of the best at

550
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: their positions. Okay, And I mean, I guess these two

551
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: guys were very different career wise, because one had a

552
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: spectacular peak and not much else after that, and then

553
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: the other guy was just really good for you know,

554
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: fifteen seventeen years or whatever. So I think I have

555
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: the two guys. I think I've figured him out. Mm hmm.

556
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: Started us off with Andrew Jones.

557
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, all right, tell us about Andrew.

558
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: He is the best outfield defender.

559
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: Ever since Willie May is probably, yeah.

560
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: No better than Willie May's defensive defensive defensive value is

561
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: higher than to ever play baseball. Yeah, that's incredible. And

562
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: the fact like that he did that and he still

563
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: hit he still hit home runs, He's still hit nukes.

564
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: He hit bombs.

565
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: Dude, he has like four hundred and fifty home runs

566
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: in his career, right.

567
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, he has four under thirty four home runs, Okay,

568
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: fifty a lot of bombs.

569
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: That's a ton of bombs, especially for a guy that,

570
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: like you said, dealt with injuries. So tell us a

571
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: little bit about the the you know, downside to Andrew's case.

572
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: Well, I also want to talk about a couple I

573
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: want to give one a good stat on go for it.

574
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: Give me, give me a stat for his ten year peak.

575
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: There are only two players who had higher word than him.

576
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: This is a ten year peak, by the way, I

577
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: believe nineteen ninety seven to two thousand and six or

578
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, all right, do you want to

579
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: guess those two players?

580
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: I mean, the first one is Barry Bonds, yes, and

581
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: the second one.

582
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: Babe Ruth Williams in his time in this general of

583
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: his generation, of those ten years ten year peak, Larry No,

584
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: who is it? Alex Rodrigoz Okay, Yeah, that guy was

585
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: pretty good. Yeah he was all right, he'll be on

586
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: the ballot next year. He's got a pretty interesting case.

587
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't I think people forget just how

588
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 2: good Andrew was because he did kind of tail off

589
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: towards the.

590
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: End of his career. Yeah, which is a shame. And

591
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: he held off so quickly, And I mean, I guess

592
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: it started with like leaving free agency, and I guess

593
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: it might have been like commitment to baseball thing. I

594
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: don't really know, but I mean I think like if

595
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: he put up his performance for three four more years,

596
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no doubt.

597
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: And if you take out those years, right, so those

598
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: are the years that hurt his case a lot. If

599
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: you take out those years, isn't he sure fire? If

600
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: you're looking at just that ten year peak, isn't he

601
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: too a lot? I mean, he's sure fired of us,

602
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: But to a lot more people, is don't you think

603
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: that he's sure fire?

604
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: I would think so. And maybe if he came into

605
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: the league at twenty three years older, whatever, twenty four

606
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: years old and you know, held off at thirty five

607
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: thirty six. Everyone will be like, okay, well this normal,

608
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: this normal, Like this guy is a Hall of Famer

609
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: because he had he was the third best player in

610
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: the league for ten years, right.

611
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: And he was a huge Let's let's talk about another,

612
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: you know, one of these like intangible things. He was

613
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: a huge part of a really really good team for

614
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: a decade. You know that team ran this ran the

615
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: National League for a decade.

616
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they did well the National League East because yeah,

617
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: you know the Braves joke right exactly Atlanta Sports.

618
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: But I mean, don't you you know, do you think

619
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: that that's something that should be qualifying two guys is

620
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: they were the heart and soul of a team that

621
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: was very good for a long time. Do you think

622
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: that helps his case or do you think his case

623
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: is kind of good enough?

624
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that helps his case for sure,

625
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: because like I mean, he got the opportunity to play

626
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: in a lot of big games, and his defense really

627
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: showed up and actually mattered. But I mean, on the

628
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: other hand, like you can't criticize, like you can't criticize

629
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: like a Mike Trotter or whatever for being like, Okay,

630
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: well his team is terrible, or Albert Poolhost didn't live

631
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: up to his contract, Like that's not that's not his fault.

632
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: But I don't know. Being a great player on one

633
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: of the biggest teams in baseball, I think that with

634
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: I mean, Braves Fens have pretty high expectations too, and

635
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: the fact that he lived up to those is pretty

636
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: lived up to those and more is very impressive. And

637
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: he was a prodigy, Like people shouldn't forget that. So

638
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: let's talk about he was super hyped.

639
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: Let's talk quickly about because I think a lot of

640
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: people will say, well, if you have Andrew in because

641
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: he's one of the best defenders of all time, then

642
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: you have to have the skill in But let's just

643
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: kind of compare here the fact that, yeah, he wasn't

644
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: the best hitter. I mean, you know, a one to

645
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: eleven way to runs creative plus isn't anything outstanding, uh

646
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: An eight twenty three ops is it's those are good numbers,

647
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: but they're not you know, Hall of Fame hitter numbers.

648
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: But when you combine that with his defense, you're talking

649
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: about Omar Visco having forty five, forty six War or.

650
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: Something like that.

651
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: Andre Jones has sixty seven War. So it's you know,

652
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: his defense was good enough, and his his defense was

653
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: so spectacular that it kind of carries his offensive production

654
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: over the line.

655
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, I think you said it best. I mean,

656
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: he's not a Hall of Fame hitter. I mean it's

657
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: like a lot of his hitting stats are well below

658
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: a lot of like Hall of Fame Yeah, I mean

659
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame caliber players that we've even discussed on

660
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: the ballot in recent years, like like Jim Edmunds was

661
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: definitely a hitor. Yeah, out first ballot. But I mean,

662
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: if he I want to, I want to do a

663
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: Jim Edmunds episode. I think I could do a Jim Yeah.

664
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he'd definitely be an interesting And then

665
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: you know the two fifty four. I know, batting average

666
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: doesn't bother you, but just tell us a little bit

667
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: about why that doesn't.

668
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: Really bother you. I mean, I feel like, if you're

669
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: getting on base anyway, it doesn't necessarily matter, like what

670
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: your average is because of the single is I mean,

671
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: for the most part, as good as walk or I

672
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: don't know, but analytics nerds We're going to get in

673
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: a nerd talk here, all right, Andre Jones, Andre Jones

674
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: clear for you, right, Andre Jones, clear for you? Right. Yeah.

675
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: I think he's I think he's a Hall of Famer.

676
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: Nobody with ten gold gloves or more this is not

677
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame. And those guys were Roberto Clemente,

678
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: Al Kline, William Mason, Ken Griffy Jr.

679
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: Those are some damn good miners, man, And and let's

680
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: just uh, you know, refresh. Andrew did good this year,

681
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: and I think he's on a pretty good pace. If

682
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: he continues on the pace that he's been on recently,

683
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: then he should be able to find his way into

684
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame.

685
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: He's pretty early in his ballot contention.

686
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: The next guy, I think I know where you're going,

687
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: but I'm not sure. So this would be fifth on

688
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: your ballot.

689
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: So so far.

690
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: You have Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, Kurt Schilling, and

691
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: Andrew Jones is in the next tier. Shilling is in

692
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: between this tier with Andrew one other player and the

693
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: tier with Roger and Barry. So who is the fifth

694
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: guy on your ballot? And this is kind of an

695
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: order you picked Andrew.

696
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: Over this guy. Yes, uh, not exactly. But who is

697
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: the next guy, Scott Rowland? Yes, that's what I thought. Yeah.

698
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: So the biggest thing about Scott Rowland is I don't

699
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 1: understand why like small hall guys wouldn't vote for him

700
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: because there's or the no steroid guys, because there's no

701
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: like Red like he didn't use steroids. He was a

702
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: very good player for a long time. His numbers are there,

703
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: his allocades are there. I can't understand. I can't comprehend it,

704
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: to be honest. Yeah, no, I can't understand it either.

705
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: Also, have you been saying allocades instead of accolades this

706
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: entire time?

707
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: I'm an idiot.

708
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: Accolades allocades was like a was like a peripheral like.

709
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: So Scott Roland has all the accolades, Yes, he has

710
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: all that.

711
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: He's an eight time gold glover.

712
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: He's got more gold gloves than Larry Walker, and I

713
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: believe he's got the same amount of gold gloves as

714
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: Barry Bonds.

715
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: What what is it? It's a perfect case, isn't it.

716
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: Don't you think it's a perfect all right, So I'm

717
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: gonna give you two third basemen here, and you're gonna

718
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: guess I want you to guess who these two are.

719
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: Okay player, A time All Star, five time Gold Glove,

720
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: eight nineteen ops, one hundred and sixteen ops plus. That

721
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: guy's he's he was a special player. The other guys

722
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: seven time All Star, eight time Gold Glove, A fifty

723
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: five ops, one twenty two ops plus. I think this guy,

724
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: this guy's also a special player. He's better than the

725
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: first guy.

726
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: And I know the second guy is rolling, but I

727
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: don't know who the first guy is. So tell me

728
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: who the first guy.

729
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: First guy's Adrian Beltre Okay.

730
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think a lot of people think that

731
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,479
Speaker 2: Beltra is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

732
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: You would say, yeah, And I think Beltray might get

733
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: like ninety percent of the vote when he comes up.

734
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: You know, Roland is he's first of all, let's be clear,

735
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: he's going to get in. He'll get in a bench.

736
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: He is on a good enough he is far ahead

737
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: of pace. He's going to get in probably within the

738
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: next two.

739
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: To three years.

740
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: Should he be in already, I mean, you know, we're

741
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: we're not the people that I wouldn't necessarily say he

742
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: was a first ballot Hall of Famer, but depending on

743
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: how the ballot.

744
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: I probably would have voted for him on.

745
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 2: His first ballot because yes, there is a distinction between

746
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: first ballot and the rest, but there's no distinction between

747
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: second ballot and seventh ballot.

748
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: Am I Right? Yeah, I think he should be in

749
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: because I mean, I think a lot of reason why,

750
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: Like his he's not like a ten time molster, like

751
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: a ten time goal glover. He doesn't have more silver

752
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: sluggers because of Chipper Jones, I mean, and Chipper Jones

753
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: obviously first ballot Hall of Famer, like he was the

754
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: one star of that generation. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And like

755
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: I don't think like Roland's case should be like compromise

756
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: at all because Chipper Jones was an unbelievable player and

757
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: or like when he has his like MVP caliber season

758
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: is when like Bonds and Adrian Beltra have the best

759
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: seasons of their careers. Like, so he he has like

760
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: those type of numbers, it just didn't work out, like

761
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: if he if Scott Roland has his numbers with someone

762
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to later in his MVP season, Uh,

763
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: he's already in the Hall of Fame because he has

764
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: an m v P. Right, But right. I mean it

765
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: just didn't work out years wise, but I mean he

766
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: was a great defender music. Let's be clear.

767
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: I think he has the second most. Oh no, Brooks

768
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 2: Robinson has the first most. But I think he's like

769
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: right behind Schmidt. I think he's like right behind Schmidt

770
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 2: for gold gloves by a third baseman. And that Schmidt

771
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:34,959
Speaker 2: guy was pretty damn good.

772
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was all right. Mike Schmidt wasn't that bad.

773
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: So, you know, to me, uh, with all things considered,

774
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: when you include the fact that Shilling has character issues

775
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 2: and this, you know, the steroid is in some of

776
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: the other stuff.

777
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: Does Roland might have the third best case on the

778
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: ballot right now? I think I think he does. I

779
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 1: think he has a very clean case and he has like, yes,

780
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: seventy war Old.

781
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: He ticks every box. Dude, He's got seventy war He's

782
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: got eight goal gloves.

783
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: He's a what a you said?

784
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: Eight A five time All Star, seven time All Star,

785
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: five time.

786
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: Seven time All Star, and eight time gold Glover.

787
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: You know, all start to meet recently, it's kind of

788
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: become a popularity contest. But I think it's important that

789
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: you were recognized by the community as one of the

790
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 2: best players that year or if you were doing it

791
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: for a you know, six seven years of that time

792
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: period that people knew you were one of the best, right.

793
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And also based on like looking at

794
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: his numbers, this guy was also like he was also

795
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: a five tool player because he could you could hit

796
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: for power field, he could run. Yeah, and I'm blanking

797
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: on the fifth tool. I think it's patients, right.

798
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: Uh, patients run hit throw.

799
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: Speed run hit throw, hit for power defense defense. Yeah.

800
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: And he did everything, yes, great, he was great at everything.

801
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: Like I said, I think it's the third best case man,

802
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: you know. And it's like you said, it's clean. There's

803
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 2: no character issues here. It's a seventy war and eight

804
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: to fifty five ops and eight gold gloves. That's what

805
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: it breaks down to. So yeah, we're completely in agreement

806
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: so far. The only thing we don't agree on is

807
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 2: some of the guys you left off. You left off

808
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 2: Manny and Billy Wagner, who would have been on my ballot.

809
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 2: I understand why you left Manny off. You also left

810
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 2: off so so so far you've got Barry Roger Shilling,

811
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: Andrew Jones, and Scott Roland. We're moving into a new

812
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: tier here. I think you said there are three guys

813
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: in this tier and these are your borderline cases.

814
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: Correct. Yeah, so these guys are toss ups, and I'm

815
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: gonna try to run through this a little quicker.

816
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 2: Okay, let's give give me the first one.

817
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: Oh, Jeff Kent was the first guy. Nice.

818
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 2: I'm happy you have Kent because I think he deserves

819
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: a little more love.

820
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so Jeff Kent, he was a guy. I

821
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that if Roland had his two thousand and

822
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: four season this year, he would have had an MVPA.

823
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: But he is the most home runs for a second

824
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: basement of all time. That has to mean something. I agree.

825
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: And we've talked about this a few times, where if

826
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 2: you are the best blank at this position, I think.

827
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: That helps you.

828
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 2: Being the best power hitting second basement of all time

829
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: better than Ryan Sandberg should help you, you know. And

830
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: he is the reason I love Roland's case so much

831
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 2: is because he has Jeff Kent's offense. Plus he was

832
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 2: an eight time goal glover, so I think that Kent's

833
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: hitting resume is Hall of Fame worthy. Plus Roland has it.

834
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you talked about these guys back to back.

835
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: Because Roland's OPS is eight fifty five.

836
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: What is Jeff Kent's ops and.

837
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: His and Roland's way to run creative plus, I want

838
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 2: to say, is one twenty two or maybe it's Kents's

839
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: one twenty two and Rolands is.

840
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: Twenty two exactly.

841
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: So they're the same you're talking You're talking about the

842
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: same hitter here.

843
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the only thing that separates the two is

844
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: like Roland was a Gold Glove defender and Kent was

845
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: average at it. And but Kent has his MVP, which

846
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: is huge.

847
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: And how much of a believer are you in standards

848
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 2: by position?

849
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: Right?

850
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 2: So, uh, second base isn't the strongest position out there.

851
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 2: There aren't that many second Hall of Fame second basement

852
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: Do you think that because Kent Kent can benefit from

853
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: playing second base because he was one of the best

854
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: second basement of all time?

855
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I also believe that second base a very

856
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: under it's a very underrepresented Hall of Fame position. Yeah,

857
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: I can agree with that, especially in this generation how

858
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: important like they are, especially your defense. And I think

859
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: we saw even with Robbie Cano, who unfortunately like won't

860
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: make the whole of fame, But I mean we saw

861
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: like how he changed team.

862
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: And Kent winning an winning an MVP as a second baseman.

863
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: I mean, PT's the only guy I can think of

864
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: recently that did it. You know what I mean, that's

865
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 2: an outfielder third basement shortstop award. So I think that's

866
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: very I think that's very impressive as well.

867
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: And yeah, if he go ahead, go ahead, I was

868
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: gonna say, I have some fun stats for Scott Rolle

869
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: about Scott Roland hit me. So the only second basement

870
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: with more hits?

871
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: Wait, second basement or third basement? Is this rolling or

872
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: Kent with more hits?

873
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: Okay? So Kent? You said rolling? Okay, talking about Kent,

874
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: You're good. The only second basement and more hits are

875
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: Craig Vigio.

876
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: Three thousand hits.

877
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, also three thousand hits for bu know Alamar had

878
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: three thousand hits but yeah, and he was second second

879
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: ballot vote Robinson Cano and Joe Morgan. Yeah.

880
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: So top five in hits by a second basement and

881
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: number one in home runs. One of the best offensive

882
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: profiles of his gate and.

883
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: For those that care about rbiy's, he has the most

884
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: rbized or a second basement.

885
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: Ever, yeah, RBIs or a team set, but there are

886
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 2: plenty of people that care about rbys and I know

887
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: you don't, but there are plenty of people that care

888
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: about RB eys.

889
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: So I think it's.

890
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 2: Important to mention that one question for you on Kent

891
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: before we move on to the next guy take away

892
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: the MVP.

893
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: Is he all of favor? I don't think so. Yeah,

894
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: I think that means a lot. To be the best

895
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: player of National League for a season is especially like

896
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: a full season. It's not you know this COVID season, right,

897
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: Trevor Bauers asterixcit.

898
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: Right, Mickey, But yeah, go ahead, go ahead, here's the

899
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: best player on a team.

900
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: And I mean the MLB decided that he deserved to

901
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: m VP. Maybe he wasn't better than Bonds, I don't know,

902
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: but the fact that he was considered to be the

903
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: best player in the National League that means a lot.

904
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 2: And I don't think an MVP is an au A qualifier.

905
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 2: But I think your borderline, which look for me, Kent,

906
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: is just above the line and then it's all very

907
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: good and then story Hunter right below it. So I

908
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 2: think that his case, I agree with you, is very borderline.

909
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: But that m VP. It pushes it over the edge

910
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: for you, right, Yeah, it's a it's a very well

911
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: it took it from probably not a Hall of Famer

912
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: and a probably a Hall of Famer. Yeah, I mean

913
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: you can probably talk me out well in the past,

914
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: you could talk me out of betting Jeff Kent for

915
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame. But I mean he was very good.

916
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: I mean he won an m v P and you

917
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: it was good for a long time. Yeah, And he

918
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: was good for a long time.

919
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: And you know, he's kind of known as an asshole,

920
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: but guys are assholes. You know, there are assholes in the.

921
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: MLB, so so many of them.

922
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: Being being not the best person.

923
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: You know, it.

924
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: Being an asshole to the media is not character issues

925
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 2: like what Kurt Schilling has to the point where it's

926
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: going to be a blip on your resume.

927
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: You don't have to like the guy. You just have

928
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: to be good at your job. And this job absolutely

929
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: so to me.

930
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: You know, that's something that has hurt Kent, but it's

931
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: not something that is worth discussing.

932
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: Next, go on to Gary Sheffield. Yeah, baby, borderline, borderline. Okay,

933
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: so the a million dollar question on Gary Sheffield, how

934
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: good do you have to be at hitting to be

935
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: the worst defensive player ever in the Hall of Fame.

936
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: So let's let's put this. I put this up against Omar.

937
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: We I just did the Gary Sheffield episode. I put

938
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: him up against Omar because Omar would be arguably the

939
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 2: worst hitter and Sheffield would be the worst offender. Compare

940
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: their war. Compare their war. Sheffield is like a sixty

941
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: eight war guy, whereas we talked about fiscal earlier, is

942
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 2: a forty five war guy. Offense is simply more valuable.

943
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 2: That's what it comes down to, right.

944
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, offense matters much more than defense.

945
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,959
Speaker 2: And it's about the game is about scoring runs, man, Yeah,

946
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 2: can't produce runs.

947
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. That's it. Thanks Trent Dilford. Yeah, you

948
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: cannot lose games in the NFL and still win. Don't

949
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: forget to do it. Can't do it.

950
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: So talk to me a little about a little bit

951
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: about Sheffield.

952
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: So, Gary Sheffield, Well, we talked about like badfielders there

953
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame, and there are like a

954
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: lot of them, especially Frank Thomas, who's actually one of

955
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: my favorite hitters ever. Like I I used to searching

956
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: who didn't love who didn't love the big hurt too exactly,

957
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: hit diggers. Yeah, and he was a terrible fielder too,

958
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: And he didn't play like a first base is like

959
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: barely a real like defensive position.

960
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 2: Catch the ball, catch the ball, let the ball.

961
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: Come, catch the ball, make throw a game.

962
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: But the fact of the matter is, and I said

963
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: this on the Gary Sheffield episode, Frank Thomas is currently

964
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 2: the worst defender in the Hall of Fame. Gary Sheffield's

965
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: defensive value is thirty points worse than Frank Thomas.

966
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

967
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's why he's borderlined to you, that's not

968
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: that's why he's not.

969
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: That and the steroids stuff, but he did not ever

970
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: fail an MLB drug test, which I mean steroids. Let's

971
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: be honest. They were encouraged in the bud stealing era.

972
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 2: We have to talk about the fact that you can't

973
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: have a steroid discussion without Yes, everybody was doing it.

974
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: It's a stupid excuse, don't get me wrong, but it

975
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 2: just it's just how it was in the nineties.

976
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: That's it. The guy who encouraged it, the guy who

977
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: allowed it pretty much is in the Hall of Fame, absolutely,

978
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: in all of them. Yeah, exactly, And I mean and Sheffield.

979
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: His his steroid allegations aren't even that concrete. It's like

980
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 2: he had something rubbed on his knee and he worked

981
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: with somebody that uh you know.

982
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: His dads didn't change at all.

983
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 2: I just did the Sheffield episode. Dude, he is like talk.

984
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 2: He is one of the most consistent hitters of all time.

985
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: You know, and he has five hundred home runs. And also,

986
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: all right, I'll do a side.

987
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: Is there is there anybody in the five hundred home

988
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 2: run club that isn't in the Hall of Fame.

989
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't think there is, right, there can't be me

990
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: real quick, let me look at this because I uh

991
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: so everyone that wasn't in it, or everyone that's not

992
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: in the Hall of him it's in the five hundred

993
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: home run club as a steroid allegation.

994
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So Sheffield, Sheffield or Teas will be on the

995
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,919
Speaker 2: ballot next year. A Rod is on the ballot next year. Yeah,

996
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 2: Paul Marrow who holes is still playing. Paulmro had never

997
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: had a chance.

998
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Mark maguire Manny is still on the ballot.

999
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, if you're five hundred home runs, that's pretty

1000
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 2: much a qualifier, right, Yeah, Yeah, I think so it's

1001
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: like three thousand hits.

1002
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's the same type of thing. And honestly,

1003
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: he's also pretty close to three thousand ntes. I mean

1004
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,959
Speaker 1: not that close, but like four hundred hits away.

1005
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: His peak is it just you know, one of the

1006
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: most consistent peaks we've ever seen.

1007
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, his peak is unbelievable. And I mean.

1008
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 2: His set, his seven year peak, he like never had

1009
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: an a way to puts that stat. I love way

1010
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: to runs created plus under like one thirty seven or

1011
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 2: I think he had like one injury prone year where

1012
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: he was one twenty three or something. Yeah, but just

1013
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 2: one of the most considered assistant hitters.

1014
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: So what do you think the threshold obp and yes

1015
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: and ops plus one one year with the Marlins.

1016
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, his ninety six year where he was the

1017
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: silver Slugger was probably he had like a one eighty five,

1018
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 2: one eighty.

1019
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: Seven something like that. Way to runs created plus.

1020
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: So well, on I have a side by side ye,

1021
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 2: and then I have a question for you. I love itself.

1022
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: I love doing these, I love I love anything baseball talk.

1023
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: So hit me with it. So these are just very

1024
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: simple stats. Sorry, So one guy slash two ninety two,

1025
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: three ninety three five fourteen WRC plus. The other guy

1026
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: hit two ninety five, three eighty OBP, five fifty deslogon

1027
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: percentage and RC plus. Who are these two players?

1028
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 2: Well, one of them is Sheffield obviously, I think it's

1029
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: the second one is Sheffield because I know he was

1030
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: a big walk guy, so he had that. He was

1031
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: the first one, okay, And who was the second one,

1032
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 2: Alex Rodriguez.

1033
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: Wow? And that's for their career, Yes, their careers. So

1034
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: Sheffield had a better OBP and a little bit worse

1035
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: of a slogling percentage, but the same WRC plus and

1036
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: essentially the same batting average. So here we go.

1037
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 2: The question is do you have to be Gary Sheffield

1038
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 2: good at hitting? Or is he so far or is

1039
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: he above the line that you have to be to

1040
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 2: get into the Hall of Fame despite his defense, or

1041
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 2: do you have to be you know, for you to

1042
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 2: let in that pad of a defender, does it have

1043
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: to be Gary Sheffield or is he exceeding the limit

1044
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 2: because he.

1045
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: Was such an exceptional hitter. I mean, I think everyone

1046
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 1: has like a different case because Sheffield also, I mean

1047
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: he was fast too. Provide some value on the base paths.

1048
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: So you have to affector that little bit of value

1049
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: in or you have to value like, okay, well this

1050
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: guy also did it for twenty one years, right, twenty

1051
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: two years.

1052
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 2: He never really fell off, dude, he never fell off,

1053
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: never fell off. His last year he had a way

1054
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 2: to run straight up plus like over one hundred.

1055
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: I want to say, yeah, Mets, he was on the

1056
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: Mets and I saw him hit his five hundrederun. There

1057
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: you were there. I wasn't at the game, but you

1058
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: were watching, yeah, and I mean it was it was

1059
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: very cool to you know, see him still hit bombs.

1060
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: He was like over forty and I mean he was

1061
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: a fantastic Yeah, he was a fantastic hitter even in

1062
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: his life. Like you saw the patience, he saw the

1063
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: little bat wiggle.

1064
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: That's another thing talking about iconic things, right, the batwaggle.

1065
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: You know every kid when we were growing up.

1066
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 2: I know you Reaveman, you specifically, and I know I

1067
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 2: did it too.

1068
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: You picked up a bat and a whiffle ball bat.

1069
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 2: Whatever it was, and the full around with your friends.

1070
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 2: You started shaking your bat like Garry CHEFFI.

1071
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, just what it was, Yeah, exactly.

1072
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 2: And and long to you, is longevity like one of

1073
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: the most important things or is it just kind of

1074
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 2: because talk about longevity twenty one.

1075
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: Years and never really falling off. So, I mean, I'm

1076
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: a big fan. I think peak is the most important

1077
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: because you have to be a Hall of Fame calbary player.

1078
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: But I think Sheffield had the peak and longevity and right,

1079
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: I mean, if you if you're good for twenty two years,

1080
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: it's more important. That's better than being good for fifteen years. Dude. Everybody.

1081
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 2: Everybody talks about a seven year peak. So when I

1082
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: did that episode, I talked about his seven year peak

1083
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: was like the Marlins and Dodgers. But then he went

1084
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 2: on to have like five more years that were almost

1085
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: as good as his peak, So he really had like

1086
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 2: a ten to eleven year peak, you could say, yeah,

1087
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 2: even through like through his Yankees run.

1088
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was tremendous with the Yankees. Literally from the

1089
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: Padres to the Yankees, like that was his peak. That's

1090
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: thirteen fourteen years unbelievable.

1091
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 2: All right, So this is the final guy on the ballot,

1092
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 2: and I think I know where we're going.

1093
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: This is one.

1094
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 2: I'm glad you put it last because this is one.

1095
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 2: I know you wavered on a lot. It's th right,

1096
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: Todd Helton, all right, you put him in. I'm very

1097
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: I'm happy you put him in. I think he's got

1098
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 2: a really, really solid case.

1099
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: Tell me about it. The people need to know how

1100
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: much I wavered on this. I've asked you about him before.

1101
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 1: I've asked you to make his case.

1102
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 2: He's been on the ballot for what two or three?

1103
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,919
Speaker 2: This is his second year on the ballot, third year.

1104
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 2: I think this is his third year on the ballot.

1105
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 2: Since Todd Helton's.

1106
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: Been on the ballot. You and I have been discussing.

1107
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: It, and I at first, you know, I of course

1108
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 2: I note who Todd Helton was. You know, one of

1109
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 2: the great players when I was growing up.

1110
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 1: He was dominant.

1111
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 2: And you want to talk about dominance, that that he

1112
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: epitomized dominance, You know what I mean?

1113
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: But I know you.

1114
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: Know where were you wavering? Talk to me about the

1115
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 2: pros the cons? What really was it for you that

1116
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: pushed him over the edge, and what was it for

1117
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: you that held him back?

1118
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: Because I'm not sure is it Coors? So Coors was

1119
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: part of it, but it wasn't like the whole story

1120
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: because I advocated very hard for Larry Walker last year. Yes, yes, sir,

1121
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: And honestly, if Larry ballot, if Larry Legend was on

1122
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: this bellt the first time, I would have voted for him.

1123
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: To me, he's the first ballot Hall of Famer. Of course,

1124
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: maybe he's not a top twenty player of all time,

1125
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. He's a first ballt Hall of Famer to me.

1126
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: But I looked, to be honest, like some of it

1127
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: was cores and a lot of it's like I'm very

1128
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: reluctant to put in first baseman, and especially one who's

1129
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: a lot of his value like came from defense, where

1130
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, Like how much does a gold glove

1131
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: like type of first baseman matter? Like do I really

1132
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: get sold on something like that?

1133
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: But three gold gloves at first base is pretty impressive,

1134
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?

1135
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: And and you know, if it.

1136
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 2: Weren't for a guy named Pooholes, is he the best

1137
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 2: first basement of in the National League of that generation?

1138
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like we were coming up

1139
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: probably yeah, yeah, sure, I think so. He was definitely

1140
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: better than like Carlos Delgado, who's the other guy up

1141
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: there for who I think definitely got uh yeah, I

1142
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: think he got the short end of the stick.

1143
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, But so with Helton talking about course, those splits

1144
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: were a little more egregious than Larry's, right.

1145
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean Larry had bad splits too, because

1146
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 1: but I mean you look at the ops plus and

1147
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: it's still better than like Eddie Murray, who is a

1148
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: clear Hall of Fame, and I mean he's still a

1149
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: good player on the road, Like he slashed eighty seven,

1150
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: three eighty six, four sixty.

1151
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 2: Nine, right, I mean he hit like three thirty at home,

1152
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, those slat the splits are a little aggressive,

1153
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 2: but that's still a very valuable player.

1154
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: On the road. And there are like players from Fenway

1155
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: who like Wade Boggs, had terrible splits Jim Rice as well.

1156
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: His selegon percentage was one hundred points lower at ninety

1157
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: points lower at at Fenway than on the road than

1158
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: at Fenway. So I don't know, I think it's definitely

1159
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: natural to be a better hitter at home, regardless of

1160
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: course you're playing.

1161
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 2: You're you're more comfortable there, you're playing there more, you know, consistently,

1162
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: whereas when you're on the road, you play in three

1163
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 2: cities on a trip, and when you're on a home stand,

1164
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: you play, you know, but so home.

1165
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: Road splits for you.

1166
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 2: You know, it was hard to get over what eventually

1167
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 2: got you over it? You don't value first base defense

1168
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 2: that much. We've had discussions about this before. I can

1169
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 2: kind of understand that he does. It's a three time

1170
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: goalglover at first base. But just kind of tell me

1171
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 2: what was it eventually that got the job done for you,

1172
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 2: because I know you've been wavering on.

1173
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: This for years. You know, I literally decided yesterday.

1174
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: Yesterday you texted me yesterday. Oh okay, I finally made

1175
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 2: my decision.

1176
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:32,919
Speaker 1: Yes, I looked at his numbers versus Joey Vado, who

1177
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: we have said for years it would be a disgrace

1178
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: if that dude didn't make the Hall of Fame.

1179
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 2: I think he might be the most underrated player of

1180
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 2: our generation.

1181
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, way, yeah, and he's I mean, he was like

1182
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: the original Freddie Freeman to me, like he was. You

1183
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: do not want to face that guy. No, you didn't

1184
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: want to face thh No, you didn't want to face

1185
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: dot Alton either. Exactly, and pretty much Helton and Vado

1186
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: have like the exact same numbers. Give me the numbers.

1187
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: Uh so in terms of war, Uh, this just baseball

1188
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: reference w Vados at sixty two point one verse sixty

1189
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: one point eight. Uh, Vado's seven seven year peak forty

1190
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: six point nine versus forty six point six. Wow, Jaw's

1191
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: forty fifty five, Jaws fifty four point five verse fifty

1192
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: four point two. They're the same They're the same player. Yeah,

1193
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: they're the same player. Helton's OPS is nine fifty three

1194
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: versus Vado's nine thirty seven. Well, and there.

1195
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 2: Would be so you see you see Okay, so you

1196
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: see the the Coors bump there, right, so they have

1197
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 2: the same park adjusted numbers. But then you go to

1198
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: OPS and it's nine to fifty three versus nine thirty seven.

1199
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: So you see that little bump is where he gets that,

1200
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,919
Speaker 2: you know where his numbers, you know, his non park

1201
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 2: adjusted numbers might look a little better than Vados.

1202
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I think Votto was probably a little

1203
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: bit of a better player. But it's the point that

1204
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: like Vato to me is definitely a Hall of Famer.

1205
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: And you look at Todd Helton, who has similar numbers.

1206
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: He was he won a silver, he won four silver

1207
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: sluggers at the most competitive hitting position arguably.

1208
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: And he went up against pooh holes man, Like, I mean,

1209
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 2: Poole started winning. Like once pooh Holes started winning them,

1210
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: he wasn't winning them anymore. But he I think his

1211
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: first couple were over pooh holes. And he was competing

1212
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: in MVP voting against a kent a bonds of pooh

1213
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 2: holes eventually, so he was keeping up with these guys.

1214
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also from looking at his numbers, I can

1215
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: tell he definitely had some sort of like injury that

1216
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 1: like prevented his power towards the end of his career,

1217
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: because he at the beginning of his career, he was

1218
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: hitting He hit forty two bombs at twenty six forty

1219
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: nine bombs in twenty seven season, So like he clearly

1220
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: had the power that got zapped. But even even then,

1221
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: like he's still like he's still adjusted to it. He

1222
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: still was able to hit for contact. What were his

1223
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: way to run creative?

1224
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 2: Like, give me some of his numbers at the end

1225
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 2: of his career when you're talking about that power drop.

1226
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: So, so I went.

1227
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 2: From a forty home run guy a forty five home

1228
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 2: run guy really too.

1229
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So in two thousand and forty, at thirty two

1230
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: home runs and he had a one sixty six WRC plus.

1231
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 1: But the next year he hit twenty and he still

1232
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: had a one forty five WRC plus. So he was

1233
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: able to adjust to it. There's just an issue at

1234
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: the very end of his career. His last four years,

1235
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: three of them were below one hundred WRC plus. Yeah,

1236
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, Helton.

1237
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: To me, like at the end, it was weird to

1238
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 2: see Helton. First of all, I kind of like didn't

1239
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 2: know you were still around. But it was weird to

1240
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 2: see him struggle in the same way that it was

1241
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 2: weird to see Joe Maher struggle in when because Maler

1242
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: was so dominant, such a good hitter. You know, did

1243
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 2: he win an MVP at CAP Sure, yes, yeah he did, right,

1244
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: So you know, a guy winning an MVP as a

1245
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 2: catcher is ridiculous. So to see those guys that, you know,

1246
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 2: Todd Helton on MVP Baseball two thousand and five was

1247
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 2: like a freaking monster, you know what I mean. And

1248
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 2: so that's kind of what I you know, in that

1249
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 2: generation where I recognized Helton growing up as one of

1250
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: the best, one of the most dominant, and then to

1251
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 2: see him at the end kind of tail off, but

1252
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: it was was very upsetting for me. But it's not

1253
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 2: enough to hurt his case for you.

1254
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree, And I mean this is the

1255
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 1: most like borderline case I feel like you can think

1256
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 1: of because he I mean, at the end of the day,

1257
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: he was a first baseman. He didn't have some like

1258
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 1: counting numbers at the end of his career that could

1259
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 1: have like pushed him up. But I mean at the

1260
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 1: end of the day, you're just looking you're looking at

1261
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: the guy's peak in the first place, and he was

1262
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: still and I mean at his peak, he was one

1263
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: of the most favored hitters in the National League. And

1264
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean him and Larry Walker. Honestly, that's that's a

1265
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 1: crazy duo.

1266
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 2: Well, three hundred and sixty nine home runs in his career,

1267
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 2: so you're right that towards the end, you know, he's

1268
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: got seven fifteen, eight, fourteen, seven fifteen after two thousand

1269
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 2: and seven, So yeah, it is weird. From two thousand

1270
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 2: and five to twenty thirteen, he only hit twenty homers once,

1271
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 2: and he was a perennial thirty to forty guy before that.

1272
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, see this is where our Hall of Fame

1273
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 2: philosophies kind of differ because I think Helton beside behind

1274
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 2: probably Bonds, Clemens Rolling. I would put Helton there because

1275
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 2: of how good of a hitter he was and the

1276
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: fact that he was pretty good.

1277
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: He was good defensively at his position, very good defender,

1278
01:05:57,720 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: very good defender.

1279
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 2: But for you, you see it as the peak, and

1280
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 2: then you don't really value defense that much because of

1281
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: his position, right, so you're not just gonna.

1282
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: Take it's important like if he if he was a

1283
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: bad defender, I probably wouldn't put him in. But the

1284
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: fact that he was like a very good defender versu

1285
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: merely like decent defender, Like, it doesn't do that much

1286
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: for me. The three clubs, the three Gold Clubs is cool. Yeah,

1287
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 1: and the fact that there aren't really that many other

1288
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: first basemen who defended as well as him that aren't

1289
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame according to uh this site

1290
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: that has Pool or actually these guys are mostly not

1291
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame, but uh, well, but you

1292
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: know Pool host had a stronger reputation as a fielder.

1293
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: Keith Hernandez, he's considered the best ever. Yeah, Mark Tschera

1294
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 1: is always considered John Oler. Those guys were great fielders. Yeah,

1295
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: and the fact that Todd Hilton like in like that

1296
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 1: type of class where he's considered a top ten first

1297
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: baseman defender. Ever, Anthony Rizzo is also in the top

1298
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: fifteen by the way.

1299
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Rizzo, you know, if you're playing, I mean,

1300
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 2: Rizzo is a vendor defender than Helton. He's won a

1301
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 2: couple of Platinum gloves. Yeah, he's one of the best

1302
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 2: defenders in the league.

1303
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, he obviously passed him very soon.

1304
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if Rizzo keeps up the defensive value and

1305
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 2: keeps hitting, you know, he'll have a case because of

1306
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 2: his defensive value. But uh, one question with the Joey

1307
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 2: Vado to Todd Helton comparison, if you give Helton Vado's MVP,

1308
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 2: is it sure fire for you or is he still

1309
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 2: kind of uh wavering. You know, it's a stronger case

1310
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 2: obviously because he has an MVP, But does that kind

1311
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 2: of launch him into a Tier two or is he

1312
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 2: still kind of lingering in this?

1313
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: Then tier three? Then with like rolling Andrew, if he

1314
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 1: has that one MVP, yeah, which means like he's a

1315
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer, and like, I like, I'm pretty I

1316
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: would be pretty confident in him all of him, and

1317
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 1: I would definitely I would certainly like vote for him

1318
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: and tell other people to vote for him. With my

1319
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: heire four, I'm pretty much saying like, I voted for

1320
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: this guy. If you don't like, I understand it, and

1321
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm willing to have like a debate about it.

1322
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 2: See to me, I you know, I hate the Cours thing,

1323
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 2: so I uh, and I think that what, let's be

1324
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 2: clear here, the fact that Larry's in broke the glass ceiling.

1325
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 2: So Helton's going to get in. I think he will

1326
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,439
Speaker 2: because he's on a great He's getting great numbers. The

1327
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 2: numbers were really great for him this year. And I

1328
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 2: think that now that we have one Cours guy in

1329
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 2: and he should have been in so long ago, the

1330
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 2: fact that we have one course guy in will kind

1331
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 2: of help Helton here.

1332
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. But if Arnado keeps up his career, yeah, probably

1333
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:52,759
Speaker 1: get it. Definitely, definitely.

1334
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 2: But for me, I you know, Helton, to me, I

1335
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 2: always kind of got mad at you because I didn't

1336
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 2: think there was really anything you could argue here, man,

1337
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the defensive value.

1338
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: But I'm glad you came. I'm glad you.

1339
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 2: Came around on Hilton man, because I think that his resume.

1340
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 1: Is just fantastic as a hitter, He's one of the

1341
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: best hitters. I'm happy I came to Uh.

1342
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 2: So let's let's sum it up. Eight guys. So I

1343
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 2: voted for ten. You only voted for eight, not using

1344
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 2: those full ten votes. So actually, next year you would

1345
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 2: probably use ten votes because assuming that all these guys

1346
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 2: would be on your ballot again, and then a Rod

1347
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 2: and uh Poppy are the two guys on your on

1348
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 2: the ballot year, it's.

1349
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: Going to be a very interesting game.

1350
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 2: One.

1351
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 1: It's gonna be crazy.

1352
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 2: One's going to be a crazy once we start getting

1353
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 2: towards that ballot season. Poppy will absolutely be discussed on

1354
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 2: the show. But you know, you might have ten guys.

1355
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:55,599
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a weak ballot this year,

1356
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 2: you would say.

1357
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, it definitely was because you didn't have like,

1358
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:01,839
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of like clean cases.

1359
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 2: At least we are getting into the teeth of this

1360
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 2: where we might struggle with Hall of Famers the next

1361
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 2: few years. Because I don't think a Rod is going

1362
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 2: to get in first ballot. Uh. You know, he's kind

1363
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 2: of re you know, what's the word. He's his resume,

1364
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 2: his image in the media has kind of been repaired

1365
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 2: after the steroids stuff, but I don't think it's enough

1366
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:26,759
Speaker 2: to get him in first ballot.

1367
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 1: Poppy. You know, it's like, how is Poppy ballot? I

1368
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: know his image is like pretty much repaired, but people

1369
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: I'll look back at his career and be like, Okay,

1370
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 1: well he had the steroids suspension, he was a DH

1371
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: and I guess you can say like his war or whatever.

1372
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 1: But I don't even I don't even care about Like,

1373
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: I don't care about this for him. I feel like

1374
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 1: I almost don't even care about the stats. It's Poppy, dude,

1375
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Man. It's big Poppy.

1376
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming that you'll have a Rod and Poppy

1377
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 2: on your ballot, so you would have ten guys next

1378
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 2: you're a little bit of a stronger ballot next year.

1379
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 2: But we are getting down to the fact that it's

1380
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 2: it's a strong ballot because there's a lot of really

1381
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 2: good players, but there's a lot of flawed players, you

1382
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Clement Chilling, Andrew there's a lot

1383
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 2: of flawed players here.

1384
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 1: So bit a weak ballot.

1385
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 2: Are you a guy that you feel you have to

1386
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 2: vote for ten every year?

1387
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: Or No, I don't think so. I feel like you

1388
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 1: should just vote for the people that like. I don't

1389
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,719
Speaker 1: think the Hall of Fame should have to like stoop

1390
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: like lower than your subjective criteria just to like take

1391
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 1: guys because like like a Tory Hunter for example. Yeah,

1392
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 1: he's a very like he was a very good player.

1393
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: Obviously he was a great defender. He was very fun player.

1394
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed watching love. Yeah, yeah, I loved him too,

1395
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,680
Speaker 1: But he just to me like he wasn't he is

1396
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 1: an ops plow eight hundred. Yeah, he's not like a

1397
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame type of player to me.

1398
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: I think, you know, like I said earlier, he's in

1399
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 2: that hall of very good. He didn't aid on the

1400
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 2: private ballots this year, which kind of shows you the

1401
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 2: private the difference in the private and public valid discrepancy.

1402
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: And earlier, like uh any Pettit like those type of guys,

1403
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 1: they're all very good. They were great pictures. There are

1404
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:18,640
Speaker 1: great pictures.

1405
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 2: Zero saw youngs between the two of.

1406
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,880
Speaker 1: Them, Yeah, exactly. And Petit, I mean obviously he had

1407
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 1: he did well in the playoffs and whatever. He accumulated

1408
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: a lot of ward, but I mean three time Molster

1409
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 1: three eight five years a. I don't think there's like

1410
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: to me, there's not that must discuss and Bobby A.

1411
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: Bray is I.

1412
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,880
Speaker 2: Think that's a very intriguing case. I would like to

1413
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:44,599
Speaker 2: get you looking at that one in the next few years,

1414
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 2: because I probably wouldn't vote for him. Now there are

1415
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 2: I didn't There are some names that I think need

1416
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: more attention than him, But he's got a long time

1417
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 2: left and he's gonna hang around on this ballot, And uh, yeah,

1418
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 2: I think that's a super interesting case.

1419
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:04,799
Speaker 1: I think that is too, because there's definitely the debate

1420
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: on whether a guy looks like a Hall of Famer

1421
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: you like or you actually like. Look at the numbers

1422
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 1: and you're just like, Okay, Wow, this dude was just over.

1423
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 1: This dude was just operted for.

1424
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 2: And shout out to my buddy Danielle Alvarez Montes. He

1425
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 2: was on the Fish Stripes pod with me when we

1426
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 2: did this Hall of Fame breakdown before the vote came

1427
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 2: out recently, and uh, he is Venezuelan, so he loves Bobby,

1428
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 2: so he you know, vouched hard for Bobby. And he

1429
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 2: sent me this thing where you compare him to walk

1430
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 2: Er Flat. Some of the guys quite bonds. But some

1431
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 2: of the guys in his generation you put him up

1432
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 2: against and he compares.

1433
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: So, you know, we.

1434
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 2: Definitely agree on a lot. All eight guys that you

1435
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 2: voted for, I voted for as well. But there are

1436
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 2: minor discrepancies in terms of you don't have to vote

1437
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 2: for ten guys every year.

1438
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's how I feel. I feel like you

1439
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 1: should just vote for players that you deserve to make

1440
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: the that feel like you deserve to meet the Hall

1441
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 1: of Fame. And if you don't feel like they're a ten,

1442
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to use all ten year picks. Obviously,

1443
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 1: you shouldn't fill in a blank ballot like you know

1444
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 1: some douchebags out there. Yeah, have a ballot over us.

1445
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 2: You know it makes me, It makes me mad. Give

1446
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,759
Speaker 2: it Ethan a vote, Give Alex the vote as well. Yeah, reeveman,

1447
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 2: you got me into the Hall of Fame. Man, you

1448
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 2: are what you know?

1449
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:40,599
Speaker 1: I mean.

1450
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say you got me in, but certainly you

1451
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 2: and me are discussions back and forth about the Hall

1452
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,599
Speaker 2: of Fame. Yeah, have gotten me into it. Before we

1453
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:52,679
Speaker 2: wrap up here real quick, any chance Billy Wagner's got

1454
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 2: four years left any chance I could get you to

1455
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 2: vote for him before his final year.

1456
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 1: I think it's possible because he was very he was

1457
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 1: extremely dominant. I just like he has the His batting

1458
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 1: average against is the best for reliever of all time.

1459
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: He's got the most k for nine of all time.

1460
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: He is the most k for nine of all Yeah,

1461
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,639
Speaker 1: you dominant. Yeah you probably could. You probably could sell

1462
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: me on Billy Wagner. I think you can do. I

1463
01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: think you can sell seventy five percent of voters on it. No,

1464
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 1: but I think you can sell me on it.

1465
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 2: Well, I got you on th Todd Helton on the ballot.

1466
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,759
Speaker 2: So let's just go over it one more time before

1467
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,680
Speaker 2: we wrap up here and I start giving you a

1468
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 2: bunch of compliments. Uh so you're ballot Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens,

1469
01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:47,960
Speaker 2: Kurt Schilling, Andrew Jones, Scott Rowland, Jeff Kent.

1470
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 1: I blinked, Gary Sheffield, Gary Sheffield, thank you?

1471
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:56,639
Speaker 2: How could I forget the only marlin, the only marlin

1472
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 2: that has a chance for like thirty years?

1473
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:07,919
Speaker 3: And yeah, hell legends, So Bonds, Clements, Chilling, Jones, Roland, Kent, Sheffield, Helton, Wagner,

1474
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 3: Sosa and Manny are the guys just off it reaveman.

1475
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 2: Like I said, Man, I wouldn't have wanted anybody else

1476
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 2: to be the first guest on the pod.

1477
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: You were the perfect first guests. You're welcome.

1478
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 2: You know, you're welcome back anytime. You know, if there's

1479
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 2: if there's a guy that you whose case you would

1480
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 2: really love to come on for an episode, you know,

1481
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 2: you're always welcome. I'll probably have you on for one

1482
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 2: of down the line, if we need a round table

1483
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 2: or something. But I appreciate you coming on. And remember

1484
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:38,640
Speaker 2: Larry walked. You know, we don't have bonds yet, we

1485
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:39,760
Speaker 2: don't have clements yet.

1486
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 1: We got Larry dude, he's going in.

1487
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 2: I'll see you if if if we're vaccinated and and

1488
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 2: and they.

1489
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 1: I guess they're not letting people in, damn it.

1490
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 2: But if they're letting people in, we're going to see

1491
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 2: Larry again.

1492
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 1: We're going We're going.

1493
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, man, I thank you so much, and

1494
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,000
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you having me perfect.

1495
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 1: Thanks M M M