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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your

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Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan.

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Speaker 2: Hi, guys, it's Jen Fessler from Killer Thriller Documentary Edition.

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Speaker 2: Here with Alisa Donovan from Killer Thriller. Hello, my love, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello.

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Speaker 3: How are we doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm so doing great. Yeah, apparently I'm a bad mom,

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Speaker 1: but everything else is great.

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Speaker 3: Welcome. It's actually a really fun club to be part of.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that will pass.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: I promise you that'll give it about ten years.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, only that only ten Yeah all right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, today we are diving into I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you guys will remember the Pamela's Smart case,

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Speaker 2: but I actually didn't.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you did either.

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Speaker 1: Lisa, right, So I remember this case very well, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't remember that was her name. I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: is this related to Elizabeth Smart? But I do remember

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Speaker 1: the case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to be a little refreshed.

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Speaker 2: So what happened was, guys, if you don't remember, it

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Speaker 2: was a murder that became this national sensation. It happened

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Speaker 2: more than thirty five years ago, and it is suddenly

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Speaker 2: back in the headlines. So Pamela Smart is right now,

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Speaker 2: serving life without parole for her role in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety murder of her husband, Greg, who was shot and

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Speaker 2: killed by fifteen year old Billy Flynn. So he was

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Speaker 2: a student that Pamela was having an affair with. She

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Speaker 2: was twenty two at the time, and there were three

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Speaker 2: other kids that were involved, maybe four actually, But now

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Speaker 2: she is fighting for a new trial, So there's all

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Speaker 2: these new questions about the evidence that convicted her, What happened?

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Speaker 2: Why is the case back in court? You know, could

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Speaker 2: one of America's most notorious murder convictions actually be reopened?

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Speaker 3: So that's what we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: And I watched the documentary and Alice watched the docudrama. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So basically, guys, May first, nineteen ninety, twenty four year

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Speaker 2: old Greg Smart was shot and killed inside his dairy

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Speaker 2: New Hampshire condominium. So his then twenty two year old wife,

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Speaker 2: Pamela Smart, was a high school media coordinator who had

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Speaker 2: been having a sexual relationship with fifteen year old student

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Speaker 2: William Billy Flynn, and the prosecutors alleged that Smart orchestrated

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Speaker 2: the murder because she feared losing everything in a divorce.

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Speaker 2: Flynn testified that Smart told him she needed Greg killed

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Speaker 2: and threatened to end their relationship if he did not

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Speaker 2: kill him. So Smart has consistently denied ordering the murder.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and so the actual murder, Billy Flynn and seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old Patrick Randall entered the Smart home. Randall held

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Speaker 1: a knife to Greg Smart's throat while Flynn shot him

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Speaker 1: in the head. They both later pleaded guilty to second

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Speaker 1: degree murder and testified for the prosecution and then the conviction.

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Speaker 1: In ninety one, Pamela Smart was convicted of being an

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Speaker 1: accomplice to first degree murder and other crimes, and she

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Speaker 1: was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

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Speaker 1: And then, you know, the trial became one of the

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Speaker 1: first in the country broadcasts live on television from beginning

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Speaker 1: to end.

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Speaker 2: So there's so much about this that, you know, watching

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Speaker 2: the documentary that I'm sort of like, I cannot believe

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Speaker 2: that these boys that, by the way, specifically the boy

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Speaker 2: Billy who actually pulled the trigger is now out of jail,

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Speaker 2: as well as the two other boys that were accomplices.

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Speaker 2: And it's it's sort of crazy because one of them

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Speaker 2: was actually inside what had happened. The other one was

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Speaker 2: driving the getaway car and uh, you know, provided the gun,

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Speaker 2: so you know she's in there. But there's it's it

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Speaker 2: was such a weird twist and turn in story. At

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Speaker 2: least from the documentary, there was not it wasn't really

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Speaker 2: about DNA evidence, Like all these people sort of came

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Speaker 2: clean pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, but maybe this is also why she

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Speaker 1: thinks she deserves a new trial. I mean, we have

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Speaker 1: to talk about that. Why does she think that she

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Speaker 1: deserves a new trial now, because it's something with the

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Speaker 1: that she thinks that the evidence wasn't wasn't presented properly.

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Speaker 1: And anytime that these things come up where it's about

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Speaker 1: you know, evidence being botched or mismanaged or something, that

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Speaker 1: always to me just feels like, well, they're still guilty,

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Speaker 1: but this is a technicality they're trying to get out on, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, I yeah, I think it's well this in

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Speaker 2: this particular case, there was they had taped Pamela's well friend,

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Speaker 2: but she was younger.

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Speaker 3: Pamela was kind of the.

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Speaker 2: Mentor to this younger girl that pam worked in the

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Speaker 2: high school. This girl as a student. They became friends.

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Speaker 2: The younger girl knew that Pamela was having this affair,

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Speaker 2: but anyway, they wired this girl up. So Pamela's friend

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Speaker 2: quote unquote friend, I mean really she was younger, wired

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Speaker 2: her up, had her go in and talk to Pamela.

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Speaker 2: And the tape was gritty, it was hard to really

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Speaker 2: hear what was being said. But a transcript, so a

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Speaker 2: transcript was written by literally just somebody that worked, I

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Speaker 2: guess for the courts. So the jury was able to

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Speaker 2: read the transcript and they could hear the tape, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't really clear. So it's being argued now that

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Speaker 2: that transcript was not accurate and it was just so

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Speaker 2: woman's idea of what she was hearing at the time,

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Speaker 2: and it was all very muffled. So that's part of

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Speaker 2: what they're arguing in terms of the evidence.

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Speaker 1: But this is like this woman, I she is a

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Speaker 1: six six human being. And in the in the movie

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Speaker 1: I watched, there's a Helen Hunt movie called Murder and

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire. The Pamela Smart Story came out in ninety one,

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Speaker 1: and it just they present this woman as she it's

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Speaker 1: like she has arrested development, like she won't become an adult.

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Speaker 1: She wants to remain a teenager in this kind of

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Speaker 1: like wild child, and she just manipulates this young boy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, fifteen is so young.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they kept going back and forth eating. The documentary

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Speaker 2: was like from fifteen to sixty. Not that it matters

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Speaker 2: still baby, but yeah, they didn't. That's not how it

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Speaker 2: was really portrayed in the documentary.

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Speaker 3: Oh it isn't, no, not really.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of So she claims that the husband, the

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Speaker 2: poor guy that was murdered, she found out that or

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Speaker 2: he admitted to her that he had had this affair.

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Speaker 2: So she was lonely. She took these kids, there were

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Speaker 2: four of them. They were doing the project together. She

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Speaker 2: was in charge of this project self esteem or something

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Speaker 2: I don't know, act high school and so she was

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Speaker 2: like just like a tour and she started working with

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Speaker 2: these kids and it Yes, obviously she was twenty two

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Speaker 2: who and she had sex with a fifteen sixteen year old,

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Speaker 2: so clearly she.

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Speaker 3: Had big, big problems.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they didn't talk about like Peter Pan syndrome as much,

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Speaker 2: just that you know, she describes it so differently obviously

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Speaker 2: than the boys did.

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Speaker 3: But they went back to.

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Speaker 2: Her house one day and they watched nine and a

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Speaker 2: half weeks and she Oh my god, so she was

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Speaker 2: definitely it sounds like she completely seduced him. But then

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Speaker 2: depending upon who you asked, he was madly in love

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Speaker 2: with her. She wanted to stop it. She loved her husband.

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Speaker 1: So they don't even cover They don't even mention that

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Speaker 1: he had an affair in this In the movie, the

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Speaker 1: narrative that I watched, it is one hundred percent like

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Speaker 1: he is this cool kind of like metal head guy

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Speaker 1: and she is super into that and they're great couple.

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Speaker 1: And then he cuts his hair and gets a job

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Speaker 1: as an insurance agent and she's like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: love you anymore. And she says that he abuses her,

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Speaker 1: but he really doesn't abuse her, and she like it's

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Speaker 1: so heavy handed in this movie that she is just

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Speaker 1: like diabolical, Like there's so much making out in this movie,

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Speaker 1: Jen like, making out is just excessive, and I do know.

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Speaker 1: I remember I was a teenager. There is a lot

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Speaker 1: of making out, but I was like stunned at how

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Speaker 1: much there is in this movie. And then she's just like, well,

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Speaker 1: you have to kill him, Like do you know anybody

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Speaker 1: like making okay? Do you know anybody that would murder him.

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Speaker 3: Did it feel very Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: A little bit? Yes, But because then the boys after,

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Speaker 1: when they're talking about it, they're like, well, let's get

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Speaker 1: a pizza first while we're waiting, because we're by the

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Speaker 1: pizza place, you know, before they're going to murder this man.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit strange.

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Speaker 2: She claimed that he was losing his mind because she

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Speaker 2: wanted to end it, and that's why he did it.

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Speaker 2: He claimed that she didn't want to get a divorce

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Speaker 2: because she would lose everything she would lose, and also

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Speaker 2: because he was an insurance he had this big life

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Speaker 2: insurance policy. They bribed the other boys saying that they

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Speaker 2: would give them I don't know, five hundred bucks to

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Speaker 2: be in on it.

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Speaker 1: That's basically what they say in this movie too. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's a minimum amount of money.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And she claims that it was it came completely

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Speaker 3: from him.

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Speaker 2: It was his idea. And then there was a friend

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Speaker 2: who was involved, this girl that I mentioned and who

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Speaker 2: wore the wire, and she was really scared of being

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Speaker 2: implicated because if I remember correctly, she told them where

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Speaker 2: to find a gun, and so the police were kind

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Speaker 2: of threatening her and the the defense was like, first

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Speaker 2: of all, these boys were in a cell together, so

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Speaker 2: they could have been plotting out their story. But whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: I don't, you know, they said it was ridiculous. They

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Speaker 2: were held in a cell together for a while, and

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Speaker 2: this girl wanted to get off in terms of being

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Speaker 2: an accessory, and so you know, a lot of it

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Speaker 2: is about that.

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Speaker 1: So she this girl, she is very much a character

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Speaker 1: in the movie as well. Yes, And it's again bizarre

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Speaker 1: because in the movie, Pamela Smart has these conversations in

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Speaker 1: front of this girl, you know, so much to the

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Speaker 1: girl's like, well, wait, you guys aren't really are you

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Speaker 1: going to really kill them? You know, like, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: well somebody's got to kill him. Like it's very.

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Speaker 2: Yes, in the documentary that they said it, but she

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Speaker 2: didn't believe it something to that effect.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, and I.

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Speaker 2: Think she got time too. I don't quote me on it,

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Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure. But according to the defense, this

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Speaker 2: girl was making a deal and the boys had had

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Speaker 2: corroborated their story and they went out there. Note but

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Speaker 2: it's another case, like we were talking before we started

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Speaker 2: the pot about Scott Peterson aside, you guys, but there's

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Speaker 2: all this new evidence that maybe he's not guilty, and

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Speaker 2: you know, all of it, All of this sort of

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Speaker 2: came to light recently because she's been in jail, and

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Speaker 2: she is in jail forever, like basically she's never getting out.

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Speaker 1: I do think, but all like I feel like that

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Speaker 1: these are all like technicality things, but I do think

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Speaker 1: that it is of note that she didn't pull the trigger.

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Speaker 1: I am she is very culpable and guilty.

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Speaker 2: But the fact that the guy who pulled the trigger

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Speaker 2: is out, that they're out, Yes, I know, I don't

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Speaker 2: get that right, Yeah, I mean I brought up the

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Speaker 2: Scott Peterson thing because everybody was so sure. I watched

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Speaker 2: the documentary and all of a sudden I wasn't. But also,

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Speaker 2: it's not just about the guilt, if it's guilt or innocence.

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Speaker 2: It was about they fight, did they get a fair trial?

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Speaker 1: This is what I mean. Like I'm simplifying, right and saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is a technicality, but this is like our legal system.

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Speaker 1: It is. But I don't but Scott Peterson, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I told you when I talked to Mark Arragos,

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Speaker 1: I also felt like, well, wait a second, is he

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Speaker 1: not guilty? But then you watch anything about this man,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, this is a stick human being.

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Speaker 2: I felt the same way. I felt the same way.

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Speaker 2: But that's why you have to watch this documentary about him.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, guys, we.

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Speaker 1: Can't get away from Scott Peterson. I can't.

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Speaker 2: I've been He's been haunting me. Yes, So Pamela's smart

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Speaker 2: haunting as well.

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Speaker 1: They really present it in this movie like she is

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Speaker 1: the abuser in a sense, like she is as opposed to,

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Speaker 1: you know, the reverse, Like certainly her husband doesn't really

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Speaker 1: beat her. Is there any mention of that in none

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Speaker 1: the doc So that not right?

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Speaker 2: Like him one night he came home. I think it

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Speaker 2: was like a dalliance. It was one night and that's it.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise he was a great guy. They had a great marriage,

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Speaker 2: and she was planning on spending happily ever after with her.

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Speaker 3: But listen, truth be told.

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Speaker 2: Wow, they didn't really talk about this, But the truth is,

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Speaker 2: you know, right now, it's twenty twenty six. He was

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Speaker 2: fifteen or sixteen, she was twenty two. That's statutory rate.

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Speaker 3: So there's a whole other layer of it, right yep.

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Speaker 2: So that she would have been and I don't know

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Speaker 2: if any of the charges had to do with that.

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Speaker 1: Right, I know I didn't. I haven't heard anything of that,

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Speaker 1: although it does say of other crimes, so maybe that

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Speaker 1: is a part of it, the statutory rate. And in

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Speaker 1: the movie, the boy Billy Flynn, who just for the record,

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Speaker 1: very handsome young man, but has a mullet like I

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Speaker 1: have never seen, Like this thing has got its own

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Speaker 1: you know, Instagram feed, like it really is. But he

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Speaker 1: he shows great remorse on the stand.

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Speaker 3: Yes he did.

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Speaker 2: In the documentary they showed that, and she didn't. And

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Speaker 2: they showed her at one point walking in to the

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Speaker 2: courthouse and they said her eyes were dead and like

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Speaker 2: a black widow. And then but one of her friends,

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Speaker 2: not the friend that testified, she's like, I feel like

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Speaker 2: that's so judgmental, Like all she was doing was walking in.

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Speaker 3: Yes she was glazed over.

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Speaker 2: But the media it was the first time that you know,

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Speaker 2: the press could actually be in a courtroom courtroom yet, right,

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Speaker 2: first time I guess ever in our country, and so

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Speaker 2: there was so much judgment picking apart everything. And she

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Speaker 2: was walking in and they show her walking in and

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Speaker 2: she definitely looks like stony eyed, and but that was

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Speaker 2: part of the problem, is like they didn't see and

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Speaker 2: then she got on the stand, and they also didn't

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Speaker 2: see the remorse, and Billy was hysterical.

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Speaker 1: They do show in the movie also, so she like

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Speaker 1: right after they discover his body and the police are

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Speaker 1: there and the investigators at their home and she's with

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Speaker 1: his her husband's parents, and she is there pretty dead eyed,

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Speaker 1: and then just says, can somebody get the dog? Like,

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Speaker 1: where's the cause? Somebody get the dog? And then also

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Speaker 1: will you call my mom? Like this very but again

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Speaker 1: it's like this thing of judging from the outside, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never been in that situation. How

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Speaker 1: would I respond? I don't know, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: you'd have some kind of, you know, response, some kind

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Speaker 1: of emotional response.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's funny watching a movie as opposed to a documentary.

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Speaker 2: This documentary for me, not the story is certainly fascinating,

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Speaker 2: but the documentary itself, I guess the filming of it

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Speaker 2: was I don't know what, sort of flat compared to

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Speaker 2: other ones that I've watched.

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Speaker 1: And this is an older one, right from twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: or something.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And they had a lot of actors sort of

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Speaker 2: like it was just they weren't actors.

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Speaker 1: But they were reenactments.

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Speaker 3: Yes, reenactment, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And so like the documentaries that I've watched, two crime

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Speaker 2: documentaries are normally so you know, you're just on edge.

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Speaker 3: This was a little flat.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that was a tactic, that was a

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Speaker 1: device that was used years ago in documentaries. I feel

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Speaker 1: like they used to do that a lot more, the

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Speaker 1: reenactment thing, and I think they.

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Speaker 2: Don't need to probably there's so much footage of the

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Speaker 2: actual crime. But it's interesting because so the film comes

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Speaker 2: out and I think probably most times it's probably almost

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Speaker 2: as scary, if not scarier than the documentary because it's Hollywood, right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's you're trying to captivate your audience with this,

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Speaker 2: you know, horrible real life thing that happened.

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Speaker 1: And trying to tell a complete story with an archer

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Speaker 1: in reality, you don't know that's not always the case, right,

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Speaker 1: so they really try to kind of tell a complete

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Speaker 1: story with the beginning, middle, and end and wrap it

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Speaker 1: up in some way. And yes, that's not always the

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Speaker 1: reality of.

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Speaker 2: The situation, right, And I just I wonder with things

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Speaker 2: like that, like even with Scott Peterson, sorry there's that name.

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Speaker 3: Again, but you can't get away. So I'm smart, but like.

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Speaker 2: Now there are these all these movies out right, so

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Speaker 2: that has to turn not just documentaries, but the movies

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Speaker 2: themselves can affect public opinion. Oh yeah, right, so now

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Speaker 2: when these people are looking for a new trial and

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Speaker 2: public opinion is so can be so adamant that this

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Speaker 2: person is guilty? Maybe maybe I don't know, I'm just

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of feeling like that could affect.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I definitely think so. And it becomes in sort

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Speaker 1: of the zeitgeist of the wrongfully accused and getting a

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Speaker 1: new trial and evidence, you know, DNA now being a

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Speaker 1: thing where it wasn't back in the day, so sort

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Speaker 1: of utilizing any of the present day way that we

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Speaker 1: look at things, right, I think it definitely has an

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Speaker 1: impact for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and all those people that came after me on

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Speaker 2: social media and I said, now that I've watched documentary,

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Speaker 2: I actually think he's innocent.

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Speaker 1: And like, how did they did? People go nuts?

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Speaker 2: A lot of people were there, you know, we were

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Speaker 2: there when it happened. I watched it in real time.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of those movies, you know, I do

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Speaker 2: think that they have there, they have an effect.

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Speaker 1: This movie. It's a heavy hand of there is no

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Speaker 1: doubt that she that Pamela Smart was just you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: certainly not mentally sound. There is has to be. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what her diagnosis would be, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think you can do these things and be mentally stable. Agreed,

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Speaker 1: but she certainly just they play her as she's presented

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Speaker 1: as just very selfish, very self centered and kind of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, arrested development. She just wants she doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to grow up. She wants to go back to that,

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Speaker 1: you know, her heavy metal posters hanging on her wall

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Speaker 1: and making out, you know, while your parents are away,

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Speaker 1: and it's like bizarre.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because it was in the documentary.

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Speaker 2: She was very very smart, great grades, really went to

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Speaker 2: what is it Florida State in Tallahassee, very diligent about schoolwork.

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Speaker 3: And Jay decided met him I guess there.

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Speaker 2: No, she met him at a party when she came

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Speaker 2: home for whatever break and they stayed together and they

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Speaker 2: both decided to move home after college. And he cut

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Speaker 2: his mullet and he became an insurance sales.

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Speaker 1: Oh he did really Okay, Yeah, because.

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Speaker 2: It's and she got a job in the high school,

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Speaker 2: but that was not the focus of it. I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 2: watch the documentary. Clearly there's a shit ton wrong with

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Speaker 2: this woman. She's yes, mental case. You know, she's sleeping

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Speaker 2: with a fifteen year old and but no, they didn't

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Speaker 2: talk about a lot of that, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: arrested development, or that she's wowing to be a child.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they really make it look like, you know, she's

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Speaker 1: making out in the backseat of the car when the

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Speaker 1: friend is driving, the car is moving. It's literally like

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Speaker 1: she is wanting to be you know, a fifteen year

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Speaker 1: old or fourteen year old. It's very strange. It's like

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Speaker 1: really disturbing in that way. And they make it seem

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Speaker 1: like it is a single focus and it kind of

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Speaker 1: comes out of nowhere, but really just about not like

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Speaker 1: he's boring, This husband is boring and I want to

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Speaker 1: be with this but like they really make it seem

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Speaker 1: like she is obsessed with this kid. But then it

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Speaker 1: does turn into she's just manipulating him. So it's like

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Speaker 1: but they they really she is the villain?

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Speaker 3: Is this when did this come out?

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Speaker 1: I want to watch nineteen ninety one? Okay, and it's

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Speaker 1: Helen Hunt. I mean Helen Hunt is like young, she's

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Speaker 1: super cute, so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she actually played her young.

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Speaker 2: She didn't play interesting because they had in the documentary

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Speaker 2: they have her in jail, like we hear from her.

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Speaker 3: Oh really, Oh yeah, she's commenting on the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh my gosh, I gotta watch this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeahah, she's commenting on it. She has a

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Speaker 2: whole thing at the end that you know, none of

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Speaker 2: it was fair and the reasons why so.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it was stilted in her favor or

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Speaker 1: is it unbiased.

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Speaker 2: I didn't leave it feeling sure that she certainly I

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Speaker 2: didn't feel sure that she's innocent, and I am not.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that she's completely guilty.

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Speaker 2: The thing that the part of it that really least

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Speaker 2: struck me the most is that the kid that pulled

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Speaker 2: the trigger is out of jail and she is in

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Speaker 2: jail like they like she said that her release date

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Speaker 2: is the ninth of the ninetieth month of the of

401
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Speaker 2: the year nineteen million, ninety like something crazy, like she's

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Speaker 2: not getting out, but there is this movement, I guess

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Speaker 2: now to try to get an appeal, so she's not

404
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Speaker 2: getting out. She didn't pull the trigger, and the way

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Speaker 2: the kid did it, I'm sure they showed this in

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Speaker 2: the movie.

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Speaker 3: Literally they point blank at the back of his head,

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Speaker 3: a kid. The kid was fifteenth point blank.

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Speaker 2: They came into the house, they destroyed the house.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't even home. He got home.

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Speaker 2: They tackled him and he looked up and he said,

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Speaker 2: God forgive me. Put the gun to the back of

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Speaker 2: his head and shot him dead. And he's out of jail.

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Speaker 1: They do he in this movie. He does do that.

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Speaker 1: He does he understand. He tells them that he said

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Speaker 1: God forgive me and he shot him. I mean, so

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Speaker 1: this is like a recurring thing though, of women being

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Speaker 1: I was just talking about this when I was interviewing

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Speaker 1: who were we talking about? Where the wh when a

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Speaker 1: woman kills a man. You know, when a man kills

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Speaker 1: a woman, his wife, predominantly, the average time they serve

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Speaker 1: is something like two to eight years or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and a woman it's like twenty five, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. It's like it's double at least double the amount,

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Speaker 1: which I don't I don't understand that either, So yes,

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Speaker 1: it really yes. So in talking with David Lasher about

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Speaker 1: the Donna Yaklich case where her she pays these young

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Speaker 1: boys to kill her husband because the husband is legitimately

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Speaker 1: abusing her. He is raping her and physically hurting her,

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Speaker 1: and it's implied, and they're pretty sure that he murdered

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Speaker 1: his previous wife. So she really was in a state

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Speaker 1: of fear for her life, right, and she also like

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Speaker 1: life in prison a million times over. And the ones

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Speaker 1: that actually did it were released later.

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Speaker 3: I mean she didn't even do it, she hired people

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Speaker 3: to do it.

437
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, I mean that's the ship that always blows

438
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 2: my mind.

439
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 3: I mean, that's going back to like the Menendez brothers.

440
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: I don't feel about them.

441
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: You know, I have a very I feel like just

442
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: from what I see and have read and have watched,

443
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: I have compassion for them. I think those boys were abused.

444
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: I do not. I think it's unforgivable that you murder anyone,

445
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: and in such a despicably violent.

446
00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 4: Way.

447
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: I just I don't think that is okay in any way,

448
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: shape or form or something. I do think that those

449
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: boys were abused. And when you don't, nobody knows what

450
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: that feels like unless you are in it, and if

451
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: you are feel like there is no way out, there

452
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: is simply no way to continue with your like you

453
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: will forever be under this man's thumb and forever be

454
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: in this you know situation.

455
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: I yeah, there's got to be something that happens where

456
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: your brain just clicks and you're and all of a

457
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: sudden you're doing something. You know, something has changed in

458
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: your brain chemistry from so many years of abuse. Who's

459
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 2: the woman that cut off our husband's penis?

460
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: What was Yes, Loraina Bobbitta Bobbit and you know back

461
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: in the day when that happened, I remember, and it's

462
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,239
Speaker 1: all made like a joke, like this woman's crazy and

463
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: it's about you know, And then as an adult, I say,

464
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this like what she must have been

465
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: driven to, right, Yes, like repeatedly abused, and then it

466
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: makes complete sense. There's definitely a documentary for you to

467
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: watch on that one. We got to find out what's

468
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: going on with her.

469
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, so.

470
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: We don't know what is going to happen right now

471
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: with Pamela Smart, whether or not she's getting a new trial.

472
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: Right.

473
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: They haven't said this is all just happening right now, right, So.

474
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: There was no part of the movie that was like

475
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: that was about defending her. It was just all about

476
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: and the boy that pulled the trigger. They were was

477
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: did that feel like they were almost defending him?

478
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really presented her like a manipulative abuser, like

479
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: there was nothing in my That was my feeling about it.

480
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: My response to it that she unequivocally, like just point

481
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: blank makes out with him and then is like, you know,

482
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to kill him, and you're like what.

483
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's not how it went down at all

484
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 2: in the documentary. But it doesn't really matter. I mean again,

485
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty two, right.

486
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: So where it stands right now with Pamela Smart is

487
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: she filed a habeas corpus petition seeking to overturn her conviction.

488
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: So the judge said, so this this hearing was on Monday,

489
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: July twentieth, and the judge said he expects to rule

490
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: within thirty to sixty days.

491
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: My guess is she doesn't have a shot in hell.

492
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: But I could be wrong.

493
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 1: I agree with you, that's my guess also.

494
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: But I am very, very interested in what happened me too,

495
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: because I wonder if they will go to the boys,

496
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 2: like will the boys have to testify again or say something,

497
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: you know, like it just they're probably basing it primarily

498
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: around this transcript where her friend was wiretapped and they

499
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: let some court reporter, I think it was a court

500
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: reporter just write out what had happened in the Jerry

501
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: got to read it, and meanwhile it was negligible, like

502
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: it was this exactly what was being said on the tape.

503
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: This is just like the Murdoch case as well, like

504
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: the one court report, not court reporter, the court stenographer. Yeah,

505
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: did something a little bit questionable, and now they're saying

506
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: like it was all of the jurors were misled. You know,

507
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous.

508
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it is, But except that, what if that's true?

509
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: And what if like what if there's a small I

510
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: know it's I'm with you, it's like probably not almost

511
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: ninety nine percent not, but what if that's a scary part?

512
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: You know.

513
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: I think I always feel in this goes back to

514
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: yet again Scott Peterson.

515
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: But.

516
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: I guess it's my bias where I feel like if

517
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: a person doesn't just have a complete breakdown like I

518
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: did not do this, you know, like who could ever

519
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: think I would do something like this? If they don't

520
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: plead for themselves in that way, I don't believe them,

521
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: Like I don't get why why not?

522
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 4: No?

523
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: I hear you, and a lot of it that is

524
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: the bias, right, Like, I'm sure the jurors look at that,

525
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: but I wonder why the lawyers don't say, go out

526
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: there and scream and cry and carry on and beg.

527
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: There's got to be a.

528
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: Reason for that too, yep, I mean you, Yeah, like

529
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: we are watching I was watching Billy in the documentary

530
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: being hysterical and she was stone cold right right, So yeah,

531
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: I'm with you, But I wonder if it is effective,

532
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: because you would think that then in that case, wouldn't

533
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 2: you know, mo, accused men and women on trial, wouldn't

534
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: they be in hysterics?

535
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 3: And you don't see that that often, do you?

536
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: No?

537
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: Not really?

538
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: Well, I can guarantee you if it's me, I will

539
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: be me too. Yeah. I won't be holding it together.

540
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: Neither will I. I will be bawling and yelling and

541
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: crying and yes.

542
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but I don't see that in the cards

543
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: for either one of us, thankfully, yeah, thankfully hopefully not.

544
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: Yes.

545
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: All right, so you guys, thank.

546
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: You for joining us, Thanks for joining us.

547
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 3: Another episode of Killer Thriller. My favorite ones are with

548
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: a Lisa Donovan.

549
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: I know, I love these crossovers. They're super fun. I

550
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: love it me too, so thanks