1 00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:04,130 Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous historians, we're back with a classic episode. This 2 00:00:04,410 --> 00:00:09,910 Speaker 1: one is a very fascinating tale from the days of 3 00:00:09,950 --> 00:00:11,030 Speaker 1: the U.S. Civil War. 4 00:00:11,410 --> 00:00:16,590 Speaker 2: That's right. Born as Jenny Hodgers, assigned female sex at 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,980 Speaker 2: birth on December 25th, 1843, Albert Cashier died. immigrated to 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,180 Speaker 2: the United States to live as a man from his 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,260 Speaker 2: early teens through the rest of his life. And there 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: were a lot, as you can imagine still are today, 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,660 Speaker 2: quite a lot of prejudices at the time that Albert 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: had to deal with. 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, massive prejudice, a lot of discrimination. This person was 12 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:40,900 Speaker 1: known as a very solid soldier and a friend of 13 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:47,010 Speaker 1: various communities. However, everything came to a head when the U.S. 14 00:00:47,050 --> 00:00:51,820 Speaker 1: government learned Albert's identity, and tried to revoke his pension. 15 00:00:52,180 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: Let's roll the tape. 16 00:00:56,770 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. One of the 17 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: weird things about U.S. history is that we have strange 18 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: names for wars. We call the Civil War the Civil War, 19 00:01:34,819 --> 00:01:37,290 Speaker 1: which is a weird name if you think about it 20 00:01:37,330 --> 00:01:41,290 Speaker 1: for any sort of war, especially one that bellicose and bloody. 21 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:44,770 Speaker 1: Here's a fact you may not know about the Civil War. 22 00:01:44,830 --> 00:01:50,230 Speaker 1: There are over 400 solidly documented cases of women disguising 23 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:53,990 Speaker 1: themselves as men and fighting as soldiers on both sides 24 00:01:54,030 --> 00:01:57,230 Speaker 1: of the conflict, the Union and the Confederacy. Welcome to 25 00:01:57,270 --> 00:01:58,890 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History. My name is Ben. 26 00:01:59,090 --> 00:02:01,620 Speaker 2: My name is Noel. And Ben, I'm just going to 27 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:02,820 Speaker 2: go ahead and get this out of the way, get 28 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,180 Speaker 2: out of my system right up front. Sort of like Mulan. 29 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:08,030 Speaker 1: You're getting something out of your system like Mulan? 30 00:02:08,090 --> 00:02:11,140 Speaker 2: No, no. This case of like the women dressing up 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,260 Speaker 2: like men so they could fight in the war, kind 32 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: of like Mulan, which is about to have a live 33 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:16,340 Speaker 2: action adaptation. 34 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: I saw the teaser. I'm quite excited. 35 00:02:18,660 --> 00:02:22,310 Speaker 2: This episode is not brought to you by the Disney Corporation. No, 36 00:02:22,380 --> 00:02:26,130 Speaker 2: but it's an interesting distinction, Ben, because a lot of folks, 37 00:02:26,830 --> 00:02:30,489 Speaker 2: women dressed up in men's clothing and passed as men 38 00:02:30,830 --> 00:02:34,970 Speaker 2: in order to either Escape a harsh life and get 39 00:02:35,010 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: the relatively stable life of a soldier, which gave you 40 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,940 Speaker 2: three square meals a day, roof over your head, etc. 41 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: I mean, of course, you know, you had to put 42 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,739 Speaker 2: your life on the line for some folks that might 43 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:47,540 Speaker 2: have been. preferable to the conditions they were living in 44 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: before that. This story that we're talking about today is 45 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: a little different because the individual that's at the center 46 00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: of this story is someone who continued to go on 47 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: living as a man after the war was over. 48 00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: That's correct. That's correct. And we want to be very 49 00:03:03,020 --> 00:03:07,340 Speaker 1: clear here. Science shows that gender as it is commonly 50 00:03:07,410 --> 00:03:11,829 Speaker 1: understood is largely a social construct. And we wanted to 51 00:03:11,889 --> 00:03:17,060 Speaker 1: share with you today the story of Albert Cashier, who 52 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: fought for the union in the U.S. Civil War and 53 00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:28,660 Speaker 1: was a trans man. Before we continue, I can't believe 54 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:31,180 Speaker 1: we got this far in the episode without shouting out 55 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,470 Speaker 1: our super producer, Casey Pegram. Now, Casey, you're not what 56 00:03:36,550 --> 00:03:39,650 Speaker 1: people would describe as a Civil War buff, especially. 57 00:03:39,730 --> 00:03:42,850 Speaker 2: Is that correct? That's correct. Yeah, I'm not really too 58 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:43,770 Speaker 2: heavily invested in that. 59 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: What was that four-hour Civil War film? 60 00:03:46,660 --> 00:03:47,690 Speaker 2: The Civil War? 61 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:49,850 Speaker 1: Gettysburg? Gettysburg, yeah. 62 00:03:50,330 --> 00:03:52,830 Speaker 2: Wasn't there one that... No, that's a Ken Burns. Ken Burns. 63 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:55,130 Speaker 2: It's like probably 10 or 12 hours. Okay, so, okay. Well, look, 64 00:03:55,170 --> 00:03:58,850 Speaker 2: I was thinking of a high-hour-count Civil War documentary. I 65 00:03:58,890 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: love how Ken Burns' documentaries are so, like, authoritative. They're 66 00:04:01,820 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: just like. 67 00:04:02,260 --> 00:04:04,540 Speaker 1: Jazz, baseball. Yeah, yeah. 68 00:04:04,780 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: The Civil War. 69 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:09,820 Speaker 1: I want him to go a little more afield sometimes. 70 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: You know, I wish he just did very, very specific things, 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,970 Speaker 1: you know, like, mascots. 72 00:04:15,470 --> 00:04:17,089 Speaker 2: That'd be good. I'll tell you what is very, very 73 00:04:17,110 --> 00:04:19,219 Speaker 2: specific about Ken Burns is his haircut. Have you seen it? 74 00:04:19,690 --> 00:04:23,339 Speaker 2: It's like a very interesting twist on the bowl cut. 75 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:24,940 Speaker 1: I mean, he's living his life. 76 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:26,700 Speaker 2: He is living his life. And I'll tell you who 77 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: else was living their lives is Albert Cashier, who was 78 00:04:29,460 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: born on December 25th, 1843 in a fantastically named Cloggerhead County. 79 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:39,260 Speaker 2: Maybe it's Cloggerhead. There's a GH sound. What do you think, Ben? 80 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: We learned our lesson about Gaelic. Let's just spell it. C-L-O-G-H-E-R. 81 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,870 Speaker 2: Head. I'm going to go with Cloverhead. That's what I'm 82 00:04:47,890 --> 00:04:49,930 Speaker 2: going to shoot for. Go for it. And that is 83 00:04:50,170 --> 00:04:53,429 Speaker 2: in the county of Louth. Louth? Louth. 84 00:04:53,450 --> 00:04:56,450 Speaker 1: I would hazard it is Louth. 85 00:04:56,529 --> 00:04:58,890 Speaker 2: You would hazard it is Louth. Let's see what Forvo 86 00:04:58,910 --> 00:04:59,830 Speaker 2: has to say about this. 87 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:04,750 Speaker 1: Louth. Louth. Louth? Louth. 88 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:08,100 Speaker 2: The robot voice has spoken. Louth is what we shall 89 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,180 Speaker 2: go with today. For the purposes of this story. So, yeah, 90 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: County of Louth, Ireland. And the interesting thing or the, 91 00:05:15,660 --> 00:05:18,660 Speaker 2: I guess, galling thing about the story is that there 92 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,260 Speaker 2: isn't that much that we know about this person's life. 93 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: And the things that we do know come from a 94 00:05:24,620 --> 00:05:30,020 Speaker 2: recorded account when Cashier was going through the throes of 95 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:33,500 Speaker 2: dementia back in 1913. But we are going to do 96 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:35,580 Speaker 2: our best to piece together what we do know about 97 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,620 Speaker 2: this fascinating individual and their bravery and their life. 98 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:44,539 Speaker 1: Right. So the account comes when Cashier is 70 years 99 00:05:44,690 --> 00:05:49,150 Speaker 1: old and suffering from a bit of mental deterioration with age. 100 00:05:49,870 --> 00:05:52,869 Speaker 1: Here's what we know. So Cashier was born in Ireland, 101 00:05:53,130 --> 00:05:57,790 Speaker 1: as you said, in 1843, immigrated to Illinois at a 102 00:05:57,910 --> 00:06:01,089 Speaker 1: very young age, sometime in childhood, but exactly when is 103 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:01,670 Speaker 1: not clear. 104 00:06:02,410 --> 00:06:06,789 Speaker 2: As a stowaway on a ship, first to, I want 105 00:06:06,810 --> 00:06:10,070 Speaker 2: to say, England, London, and then carried on to New 106 00:06:10,210 --> 00:06:10,630 Speaker 2: York City. 107 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,900 Speaker 1: And from his teenage years, Cashier was living as a man. 108 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,419 Speaker 1: And he did so until his death at age 71. 109 00:06:22,420 --> 00:06:26,339 Speaker 1: So the account we have comes one year before he 110 00:06:26,420 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: passes away. And his story is remembered because of his 111 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,770 Speaker 1: service in the Civil War. Kashir is one of many, 112 00:06:34,010 --> 00:06:38,180 Speaker 1: many people who were living their lives in a way 113 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:44,740 Speaker 1: that was largely unacknowledged by the public, by the communities 114 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,900 Speaker 1: through which they moved. And that's a problem that continues 115 00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:53,630 Speaker 1: today throughout the world, throughout the species. But in Kashir's case, 116 00:06:54,350 --> 00:06:58,990 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam itself confirmed or affirmed, would be a better word, 117 00:06:59,430 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: this male identity. We know that at some point after immigrating, 118 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:08,469 Speaker 1: cashier was given men's clothing by an uncle or stepfather 119 00:07:09,470 --> 00:07:12,490 Speaker 1: with the idea being that, you know, hey, kid, wear 120 00:07:12,530 --> 00:07:15,670 Speaker 1: this and you can get a job at this shoe factory. 121 00:07:15,870 --> 00:07:20,050 Speaker 1: And that's where that's where Albert adopts the name Albert Cashier. 122 00:07:20,210 --> 00:07:23,190 Speaker 2: It's interesting, too, that there is this idea of cooperation 123 00:07:23,330 --> 00:07:27,220 Speaker 2: from a member of the patriarchy that was that would 124 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: potentially have had a problem with this and caused a 125 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:33,700 Speaker 2: lot of difficulties for this young person at the time. 126 00:07:34,340 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: But the account that we have is that the uncle 127 00:07:36,260 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: or stepfather was in fact cooperative and helpful and helped 128 00:07:40,790 --> 00:07:46,770 Speaker 2: Albert mask his assigned gender identity and secure work at 129 00:07:46,830 --> 00:07:49,830 Speaker 2: a shoe factory. And that's when he took on the 130 00:07:49,870 --> 00:07:52,190 Speaker 2: name Albert Cashier so that he could work and he 131 00:07:52,230 --> 00:07:54,610 Speaker 2: lived by himself and he kept to himself. And this 132 00:07:54,630 --> 00:07:56,950 Speaker 2: is something that he would continue doing once he enlisted 133 00:07:57,310 --> 00:08:01,910 Speaker 2: in the U.N. army in 1862. He would shower on 134 00:08:01,950 --> 00:08:04,750 Speaker 2: his own. He would change into his, you know, from 135 00:08:04,770 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: his uniform on his own. And that wasn't seen as 136 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,260 Speaker 2: being particularly strange, right? Like that was pretty common, according 137 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: to some of the records that we've seen for other 138 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,860 Speaker 2: soldiers to do that. It wasn't like a big boys 139 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: club kind of locker room situation. 140 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:23,660 Speaker 1: Right, right. And for the record, 1862, that makes Albert 141 00:08:23,660 --> 00:08:28,450 Speaker 1: 19 when joining the Union. So here's what we know 142 00:08:28,510 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: for certain. On August 6th, 1862, 19-year-old Albert Cashier was 143 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,819 Speaker 1: a resident of Belvedere, Illinois, and enlisted in the 95th 144 00:08:38,980 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: Illinois Infantry. Like you mentioned earlier, Noel, Albert was known 145 00:08:44,580 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: to keep mostly to himself. And the only thing people 146 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,620 Speaker 1: really called out about or busted chops about with him 147 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,470 Speaker 1: was that he was the shortest person in the squad. 148 00:08:56,540 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: But he passed the medical exam. 149 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:01,850 Speaker 2: Which only consisted of looking at like things like teeth 150 00:09:02,350 --> 00:09:04,750 Speaker 2: and I guess arches, you know, make sure he didn't 151 00:09:04,790 --> 00:09:08,150 Speaker 2: have any bone spurs or anything like that. And the 152 00:09:08,210 --> 00:09:11,030 Speaker 2: ability to wield a rifle. Those are the things that 153 00:09:11,070 --> 00:09:15,170 Speaker 2: there was no looking at private bits. Right, right. 154 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: Cashier was also known for being the silent type, not 155 00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:26,380 Speaker 1: super extroverted. but being very, very brave in the field 156 00:09:26,980 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: of battle. We also found that correspondences from the time 157 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,870 Speaker 1: suggest Cashier had a significant other during the war. And 158 00:09:37,950 --> 00:09:41,550 Speaker 1: like many other soldiers on both the Union and Confederate 159 00:09:41,590 --> 00:09:47,830 Speaker 1: sides of that conflict, Cashier wrote to this significant other. 160 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: That was the Morey family he kept in contact with 161 00:09:51,900 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: in Babcock's Grove, Illinois. Cashier's regiment participated in over 40... engagements, 162 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: battles in the war. They were part of the Army 163 00:10:04,179 --> 00:10:07,860 Speaker 2: of the Tennessee, and that included the Siege of Vicksburg, 164 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: the Red River Campaign, battles in Kennesaw Mountain in Jonesboro, Georgia, 165 00:10:13,220 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: very near where we are here in Atlanta, and also 166 00:10:16,020 --> 00:10:20,330 Speaker 2: the Battle of Nashville. And he survived. In fact, he 167 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:23,469 Speaker 2: also there's a story that isn't very detailed, but he 168 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:27,229 Speaker 2: supposedly was captured at one point. And he more or 169 00:10:27,270 --> 00:10:30,010 Speaker 2: less just was a badass and like knocked over his 170 00:10:30,070 --> 00:10:32,770 Speaker 2: captor and ran on foot all the way back to 171 00:10:32,929 --> 00:10:37,620 Speaker 2: his camp and escaped. And all the while avoiding being detected. 172 00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:41,140 Speaker 2: He was even treated for diarrhea once and was able 173 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: to kind of like wiggle his way out of getting shot. 174 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: inspected in any kind of way that would have given 175 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: away his secret. And that capture was in 1863 during 176 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: the siege of Vicksburg. 177 00:10:52,600 --> 00:11:00,030 Speaker 1: In May. So, Gashier serves a three-year enlistment with his regiment, 178 00:11:00,050 --> 00:11:05,250 Speaker 1: the 95th, until they are mustered out, honorably discharged on 179 00:11:05,429 --> 00:11:11,610 Speaker 1: August 16th of 1865. To put in perspective how amazing 180 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:16,170 Speaker 1: it is for anyone to survive this sort of conflict, 181 00:11:16,929 --> 00:11:22,940 Speaker 1: out of the 95th Regiment, 289 soldiers died due to 182 00:11:22,980 --> 00:11:26,620 Speaker 1: death on battlefield or due to disease. Because I thought 183 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,420 Speaker 1: it was interesting that you mentioned the idea of joining 184 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:32,540 Speaker 1: a military to get three square meals a day. That 185 00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:36,359 Speaker 1: is the case now, right? In the U.S. military and 186 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: most Western militaries, you will be fed. You will have 187 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: a place to sleep. It may not be ideal, but 188 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: you will have those things. This was not always the 189 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,179 Speaker 1: case in the Union and Confederate armies. People were fighting 190 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,350 Speaker 1: for ideological reasons, at least the people on the ground. 191 00:11:58,190 --> 00:12:04,390 Speaker 1: And Albert's reputation continues. Well after the war, his brothers-in-arms 192 00:12:04,770 --> 00:12:08,890 Speaker 1: remember this guy that they thought was you know, kind 193 00:12:08,970 --> 00:12:12,170 Speaker 1: of short, but so brave. He was plucky, you know, 194 00:12:12,450 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: and he undertook dangerous assignments. He was admired for his 195 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:24,610 Speaker 1: heroic actions, his bravery, and he was somewhat of an enigmatic, 196 00:12:24,770 --> 00:12:29,810 Speaker 1: fascinating figure because he never seemed to get a serious injury. 197 00:12:29,890 --> 00:12:31,230 Speaker 1: He was blessed in some way. 198 00:12:31,450 --> 00:12:35,250 Speaker 2: Very much so. And that reputation carried over into his 199 00:12:35,390 --> 00:12:38,510 Speaker 2: life after the war, where he continued to keep to himself. 200 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,420 Speaker 2: You know, it makes sense that he would do that 201 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,620 Speaker 2: because too many questions or getting too close to anybody 202 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 2: could have opened the door to him being discovered, which 203 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: could have robbed him of his pension. That's another thing 204 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,260 Speaker 2: that is a positive aspect of being in the military. 205 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: You get paid even after your service, of which he 206 00:12:55,059 --> 00:13:03,020 Speaker 2: did the full term, by the way. So he moved 207 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,070 Speaker 2: back to a small community in Illinois where he had 208 00:13:06,130 --> 00:13:10,390 Speaker 2: immigrated to originally and was like a pillar of the community. People, 209 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:12,930 Speaker 2: you know, didn't really know too much about him, but 210 00:13:13,010 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: he was like regarded as a very good citizen and 211 00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:20,750 Speaker 2: treated with respect and no one invaded his privacy. And 212 00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:23,610 Speaker 2: during this time, he had many odd jobs, including like 213 00:13:23,650 --> 00:13:26,610 Speaker 2: he was like a lamplighter for the city. I think 214 00:13:26,650 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: he was a custodian at a hospital. And he also 215 00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 2: worked for a lawmaker. He found himself working for Senator 216 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,699 Speaker 2: Ira Lash. And that is when things kind of started 217 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,700 Speaker 2: going downhill for Cashier. When the senator, the honorable senator, 218 00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:45,990 Speaker 2: accidentally hit Cashier with his car and broke his leg, 219 00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:49,750 Speaker 2: forcing him to be taken to hospital immediately. And examined. 220 00:13:50,260 --> 00:13:53,270 Speaker 1: Right. And at this time, you know, as we said, 221 00:13:53,330 --> 00:13:57,150 Speaker 1: he was a respected, established member of the community. He 222 00:13:57,210 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: wasn't like a Boo Radley type shut in from Harper 223 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,900 Speaker 1: Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird. He was known. 224 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:07,980 Speaker 2: He was active. 225 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:11,939 Speaker 1: He wore his uniform all the time. 226 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,830 Speaker 2: That's right. And buttoned up to his neck, apparently, to 227 00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 2: hide the fact that he did not have an Adams app. 228 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,580 Speaker 1: That's correct. And you can read an excellent source on 229 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:25,260 Speaker 1: this from irishtimes.com, When Jenny Came Marching Home, an Irish 230 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,140 Speaker 1: woman's diary on Albert Cashier and the U.S. Civil War 231 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: by Nora Eide McAleef. So let's fast forward. November 1910, 232 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:39,710 Speaker 1: the senator hits Cashier with his car. Albert, at this point, 233 00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:43,130 Speaker 1: is 67 years old. His leg is broken, goes to 234 00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:47,340 Speaker 1: the hospital, as you said, and the hospital... The staff 235 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,870 Speaker 1: of the hospital learns the sex assignment. They agree that 236 00:14:52,010 --> 00:14:56,270 Speaker 1: they are not going to betray the trust. This is 237 00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:59,610 Speaker 1: a good bunch of doctors and medical professionals. 238 00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:04,150 Speaker 2: Again, incredibly progressive and super helpful and very lucky in 239 00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: this string of like lucky events that has led this 240 00:15:07,460 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: person to have not been exposed for 67 years of 241 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: their life. There's bad news. Yeah, although they can't all 242 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: be good eggs because once he is treated, he doesn't 243 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: really have any much money other than his pension. He 244 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,140 Speaker 2: can't really work anymore. So he's sent to a place 245 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: called the Soldiers and Sailors Home in Quincy, Illinois, where 246 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,230 Speaker 2: he is going to convalesce. And he stays there for 247 00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:34,590 Speaker 2: a few years. He stays there for a few years. 248 00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:37,390 Speaker 2: In that amount of time, he starts to get the 249 00:15:37,530 --> 00:15:39,489 Speaker 2: onset of that dementia that we mentioned at the top 250 00:15:39,510 --> 00:15:42,780 Speaker 2: of the show. And that's when he's sent to and 251 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: this is a horrible term, but this is what it 252 00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:46,780 Speaker 2: was referred to at the time, a state hospital for 253 00:15:46,850 --> 00:15:52,170 Speaker 2: the insane. And there, his sex assignment is discovered again, 254 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:55,100 Speaker 2: and they aren't so kind about it. 255 00:15:55,510 --> 00:16:00,930 Speaker 1: No, the Senator Lish intervened, and Lish, from what we 256 00:16:00,980 --> 00:16:05,140 Speaker 1: could tell, is the person who actually disclosed the sex 257 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: assignment of Albert Cashier and warned the staff, of this 258 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: state hospital to keep the information a secret, but these 259 00:16:15,220 --> 00:16:21,010 Speaker 1: two male nurses forced Albert to wear a dress and 260 00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:25,290 Speaker 1: then took the information public, and the media got a 261 00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:28,950 Speaker 1: hold of it, and the story went national, and at 262 00:16:29,050 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: this time, remember we mentioned the pension earlier, at this time, 263 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,460 Speaker 1: the Veterans Pension Board gets wind of this, and they 264 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,390 Speaker 1: decide Instead of recognizing the soldier's duty and the fact 265 00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:44,050 Speaker 1: that they did the full term, right, of their enlistment, 266 00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: instead of recognizing that, the Veterans Pension Board begins to 267 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,780 Speaker 1: investigate Albert for fraud. And keep in mind to this point, 268 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,340 Speaker 1: Albert is 69, 70 years old and suffering from this 269 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: cognitive decline. 270 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: Well, they go on to say– they add insult to 271 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 2: injury in saying that there's no way this old elderly 272 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,419 Speaker 2: person in their frail state could have possibly been the 273 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,730 Speaker 2: heroic soldier who fought in the war and also because 274 00:17:12,770 --> 00:17:16,230 Speaker 2: of obviously the fact that they are female. But again, 275 00:17:16,550 --> 00:17:20,550 Speaker 2: really progressive thinking at this time. His wife. compatriots, you know, 276 00:17:20,609 --> 00:17:23,430 Speaker 2: from his army days come to his aid and back 277 00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:26,629 Speaker 2: up his story and say, no, this was the guy. 278 00:17:26,650 --> 00:17:28,230 Speaker 1: They're like, that's my dude. 279 00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:30,010 Speaker 2: And we don't care. Or I don't know. It's not, 280 00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:32,490 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously they would have heard the stories. They 281 00:17:32,510 --> 00:17:34,890 Speaker 2: would have had to come to his aid for a reason. Yeah. 282 00:17:34,930 --> 00:17:36,430 Speaker 2: And so they had to have like not cared. 283 00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:37,780 Speaker 1: This was national news. 284 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: National news. They had to have like not held a 285 00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 2: grudge or you would think that, you know, maybe they 286 00:17:43,220 --> 00:17:45,500 Speaker 2: would have felt betrayed or something like that or lied to, 287 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: but instead they seemed to see through to the truth 288 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 2: of the matter and come to his defense. And the 289 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,619 Speaker 2: board decided to continue paying out his pension, as they 290 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:55,939 Speaker 2: should have. 291 00:17:56,140 --> 00:18:00,100 Speaker 1: Yeah, they assented. Because think about this. Think about the 292 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:05,020 Speaker 1: time in which this debate is occurring. What are you 293 00:18:05,060 --> 00:18:08,820 Speaker 1: going to do as the veteran board if other veterans 294 00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: come to you and say essentially you were insulting the 295 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:16,389 Speaker 1: entire concept of serving in the military? and you are 296 00:18:16,430 --> 00:18:19,470 Speaker 1: not holding up your end of the bargain. And this 297 00:18:19,550 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: is heartbreaking. So Albert's fellow soldiers vouch for him and 298 00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: raise enough of a stink and attention that the veteran 299 00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:32,260 Speaker 1: board does continue these pension payments. But Albert is still 300 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: lost in this place and declared insane. Albert fights the 301 00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: best way he can. He takes the skirts that he's 302 00:18:40,859 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: forced to wear and He ties them up with safety 303 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: pins so he can form pants out of them. But 304 00:18:48,340 --> 00:18:52,350 Speaker 1: Albert trips one day, breaks a hip, and eventually dies 305 00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:57,810 Speaker 1: on October 10th, 1915, age 71. I know this sounds 306 00:18:57,830 --> 00:19:00,490 Speaker 1: like a downer, folks, but we promise you we do 307 00:19:00,530 --> 00:19:01,790 Speaker 1: have a happy ending of sorts. 308 00:19:01,930 --> 00:19:05,090 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely a really powerful legacy left behind. Let's 309 00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:08,550 Speaker 2: also not forget that the conditions that he was exposed 310 00:19:08,609 --> 00:19:12,210 Speaker 2: to were a direct result of a time before mental 311 00:19:12,250 --> 00:19:15,899 Speaker 2: health reform, where, you know, the idea of being insane 312 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,700 Speaker 2: practically relegated you to, you know, forced confinement and very 313 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: little actual treatment and, you know, sort of just being 314 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: almost abandoned and left to rot. You know, there's all 315 00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:31,109 Speaker 2: these stories we know about the conditions in quote-unquote mental asylums, 316 00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:34,070 Speaker 2: you know, insane asylums is what this would have been considered, 317 00:19:34,350 --> 00:19:37,870 Speaker 2: and they were absolutely horrible and inhumane. 318 00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:45,010 Speaker 1: Here is the bittersweet Powerful ending. When Albert Cashier passes away, 319 00:19:45,310 --> 00:19:48,669 Speaker 1: he is given a full military funeral. He is buried 320 00:19:48,690 --> 00:19:53,100 Speaker 1: in uniform. the uniform he always dressed in even after 321 00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:56,740 Speaker 1: the war there is a gravestone erected to him the 322 00:19:56,780 --> 00:20:00,980 Speaker 1: gravestone does not read jenny hodgers the gravestone reads albert 323 00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:06,460 Speaker 1: dj cashier 60 years later the headstone has changed such 324 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:10,550 Speaker 1: that both names are there the original name and then 325 00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:11,410 Speaker 1: Albert's name. 326 00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:13,350 Speaker 2: How do you feel about that? I don't know. 327 00:20:13,670 --> 00:20:15,390 Speaker 1: You know, I, I don't know how he would feel 328 00:20:15,450 --> 00:20:15,710 Speaker 1: about it. 329 00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:18,389 Speaker 2: Exactly. Because I'm wondering why they, why they chose to 330 00:20:18,430 --> 00:20:20,909 Speaker 2: do that. Was there some kind of outcry that like forced, 331 00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:22,739 Speaker 2: I mean, that's just such an odd choice to me. 332 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. As well. 333 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: I don't know. 334 00:20:25,020 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: Uh, because we know that Albert definitely did not have 335 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:32,780 Speaker 1: a say in that, you know, uh, but here's the thing, 336 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: the town in Illinois where Albert is buried, they remember 337 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,409 Speaker 1: him today. You can go to Sonneman, Illinois, and you 338 00:20:41,450 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: will see U.S. and Irish flags flying side by side 339 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: at the home of Albert D.J. 340 00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: Cashier. Very modest one-bedroom home that you can, I. 341 00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:54,340 Speaker 1: Believe, tour. The mayor will also give you a tour. 342 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,710 Speaker 1: It makes me, I don't know, it's kind of heartwarming 343 00:20:58,790 --> 00:21:00,930 Speaker 1: to think that you can go to this small town 344 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:04,210 Speaker 1: and you can call up the mayor and they'll say, okay, 345 00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:07,070 Speaker 1: I'll take you over to the house. I'll, you know, 346 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:10,810 Speaker 1: I'll even walk you to the grave. It's, it's heartwarming 347 00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:13,929 Speaker 1: to me that you can literally call up the mayor 348 00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:16,649 Speaker 1: of the town and they'll take you on a tour. 349 00:21:17,150 --> 00:21:17,770 Speaker 1: That's pretty neat. 350 00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:20,510 Speaker 2: It is pretty neat. And I have to be honest, 351 00:21:20,570 --> 00:21:23,310 Speaker 2: I was unaware of this story, but clearly some people 352 00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:26,889 Speaker 2: were because there is in fact a Broadway musical or 353 00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: a Broadway style musical about the life of Albert Cashier 354 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,350 Speaker 2: that came out in 2017. And, They got pretty great 355 00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:37,330 Speaker 2: reviews and played at the stage 773 in Chicago. Haven't 356 00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:39,130 Speaker 2: heard anything about a Broadway run, but I'd be very 357 00:21:39,150 --> 00:21:42,889 Speaker 2: interested in seeing this. It's called The Civility of Albert 358 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: Cashier by J. Paul Deretani, and the score is by 359 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,460 Speaker 2: Joe Stevens and Keaton Wooden. And here's a little blurb 360 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: from one of the cast members by the name of 361 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,980 Speaker 2: Delia Kropp. Quote, in so many ways, Albert's story is 362 00:21:56,020 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: a true American one, a soldier who served their country 363 00:21:59,380 --> 00:22:02,970 Speaker 2: and wanted nothing more and personal liberty to live life 364 00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:04,150 Speaker 2: as they wish to. 365 00:22:04,590 --> 00:22:06,669 Speaker 1: Which, when you put it that way, how much more 366 00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:09,669 Speaker 1: American can you get? What else do you want? That's 367 00:22:09,710 --> 00:22:13,300 Speaker 1: personal freedom, right? And even though the practice of the 368 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: law doesn't adhere to the letter of the law near 369 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: as often as I think we would all like, it 370 00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:23,700 Speaker 1: is inspirational. It doesn't matter who you are. You should 371 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:31,940 Speaker 1: be inspired by this. As we mentioned earlier, Albert Cashier 372 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:37,750 Speaker 1: was not the only person in this situation. And there 373 00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:41,770 Speaker 1: is an important distinction to make here. More than 250 374 00:22:41,770 --> 00:22:46,250 Speaker 1: Civil War soldiers were assigned female at birth. Most of 375 00:22:46,369 --> 00:22:50,700 Speaker 1: those soldiers are assumed by historians today to have been 376 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: cisgender women in disguise for the purpose of getting around 377 00:22:55,580 --> 00:22:56,460 Speaker 1: army regulations. 378 00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:57,060 Speaker 2: Like Mulan. 379 00:22:57,820 --> 00:23:02,129 Speaker 1: Like Mulan. So some would fight to be close to 380 00:23:02,150 --> 00:23:07,500 Speaker 1: their significant other or their spouse. Some were straight up 381 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:08,820 Speaker 1: trying to escape slavery. 382 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:09,379 Speaker 2: Right. 383 00:23:09,660 --> 00:23:10,899 Speaker 1: Which, of course. 384 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:13,409 Speaker 2: Who could blame them? And so that's that's sort of 385 00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:15,430 Speaker 2: the point we made earlier, where it's like the conditions 386 00:23:15,470 --> 00:23:18,770 Speaker 2: that would maybe cause someone to look at military service 387 00:23:18,890 --> 00:23:21,330 Speaker 2: as a better alternative to the life they were leading before. 388 00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:24,350 Speaker 2: Those previous conditions had to be pretty rough. Slavery would 389 00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:27,850 Speaker 2: certainly be one of them. Abject poverty, things like that, 390 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:32,170 Speaker 2: an abusive relationship or home situation, you know, would make 391 00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: one seek out any alternative. And the army was certainly 392 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: one of those. 393 00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: And while Albert Cashier. was a trans man, a trans 394 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,619 Speaker 1: soldier fighting in the Civil War. This story doesn't stop here. 395 00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:52,659 Speaker 1: Christine Jorgensen is actually the first American trans woman who 396 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:58,020 Speaker 1: was widely known for having a sex reassignment surgery. And 397 00:23:58,060 --> 00:24:00,140 Speaker 1: this goes back a little bit farther, right, Noel? 398 00:24:00,510 --> 00:24:03,429 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, call the cashier story a precedent, if 399 00:24:03,470 --> 00:24:06,609 Speaker 2: you will, or just call it kind of a spiritual successor. 400 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,379 Speaker 2: But Jorgensen, who was in the Army in 1945, and she– 401 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:15,980 Speaker 2: during that time, she learned about the possibility of getting 402 00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:21,170 Speaker 2: sexual reassignment surgery. And she started to get that process 403 00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:24,729 Speaker 2: underway in Denmark in 1951. And when she came back 404 00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:27,890 Speaker 2: to the U.S. in the early 1950s, it became kind 405 00:24:27,910 --> 00:24:30,970 Speaker 2: of a pretty hot-button story when the New York Daily 406 00:24:31,030 --> 00:24:35,109 Speaker 2: News reported it with the headline, XGI Becomes Blonde Bombshell. 407 00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:39,429 Speaker 2: she documented her life extensively. She became a huge figure 408 00:24:39,530 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 2: in the trans community, early days of the trans community 409 00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: and was, you know, made appearances on talk shows. She 410 00:24:45,859 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: toured college campuses, talk about her transition and her life 411 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,260 Speaker 2: living as a trans woman. She became an actress, a 412 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: nightclub performer, and she was very, very sharp witted. And 413 00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,850 Speaker 2: she passed away in 1989. And she referred to her, 414 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 2: impact on the sexual revolution as having given it a 415 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,169 Speaker 2: good swift kick in the pants to kind of kickstart it. 416 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,990 Speaker 1: And there's already been an indie movie made about Jorgensen. 417 00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:21,310 Speaker 1: And also additionally, Edward Glenn or Glenda definitely tried to, 418 00:25:21,710 --> 00:25:27,670 Speaker 1: let's say, take inspiration from Christine Jorgensen's story But these 419 00:25:27,730 --> 00:25:31,980 Speaker 1: stories are important to remember. And we also want to 420 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,379 Speaker 1: acknowledge that the struggle, the search for validation, recognition of 421 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,820 Speaker 1: your own identity and the right to live as you 422 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:47,139 Speaker 1: wish is a fundamental part of being a human being. 423 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:53,930 Speaker 1: So thankfully, Albert Cashier, despite the social climate and discrimination 424 00:25:53,950 --> 00:25:59,659 Speaker 1: of the time, was able to get the recognition he deserved. 425 00:26:00,380 --> 00:26:02,500 Speaker 1: We still have a long way to go and we 426 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:05,980 Speaker 1: have to wonder what future historians will say about these 427 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:06,740 Speaker 1: are modern days. 428 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,100 Speaker 2: I don't know, man. Sure seems like we're living in 429 00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:13,050 Speaker 2: a time where things like this are much more mainstream 430 00:26:13,090 --> 00:26:15,970 Speaker 2: and much more accepted. And like my kid is grown 431 00:26:16,050 --> 00:26:19,770 Speaker 2: up being completely comfortable with the idea of trans people. 432 00:26:20,170 --> 00:26:23,430 Speaker 2: She has several in her class and she is just like, 433 00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 2: it's basically the new normal. And I think that's an 434 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:30,460 Speaker 2: amazing place for us to be, given how far we've come. Agreed. 435 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,660 Speaker 1: Greed, thank you so much for tuning in today. We 436 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: hope that you enjoyed this exploration of Albert's life. And 437 00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:41,900 Speaker 1: we would like to hear from you. What are some 438 00:26:42,090 --> 00:26:49,189 Speaker 1: other amazing and inspirational stories of individuals in times of conflict? 439 00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be restricted to the Civil War 440 00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:55,739 Speaker 1: here in the United States. Let us know. We are 441 00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:59,700 Speaker 1: all ears, or eyes rather, because we'll probably be reading 442 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,090 Speaker 1: what you send to us. You can email us directly. 443 00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:08,350 Speaker 1: We are ridiculous at iheartradio.com. You can also find our 444 00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:13,149 Speaker 1: Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians, where you can meet our favorite 445 00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: part of the show. The three of us are always 446 00:27:15,940 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: talking about you off air, your fellow listeners. 447 00:27:19,710 --> 00:27:22,190 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can also check me and Ben out individually 448 00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:26,020 Speaker 2: on Instagram. I've got an account under HowNowNoelBrown, where you 449 00:27:26,060 --> 00:27:28,699 Speaker 2: can just catch me doing, you know, the things I 450 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 2: do day to day, which apparently includes getting kicked in 451 00:27:31,660 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: the shins by little kids. 452 00:27:33,140 --> 00:27:38,100 Speaker 1: And until I get black bagged and disappeared for my 453 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,709 Speaker 1: various misadventures, you can find me at Ben Bolin on Instagram. 454 00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: Thanks so much to our super producer, Casey Labouche-Peggram. Thanks 455 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: to our research associates, Ryan Barish and Gabe Luzio. 456 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,379 Speaker 2: Yeah, big thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. 457 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,460 Speaker 2: Christopher Hustiotis here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland looming large in 458 00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:04,980 Speaker 2: the world of quiz-related supervillainy. And thanks to you, Ben, 459 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 2: for being a friend and a confidant down that road 460 00:28:07,660 --> 00:28:08,780 Speaker 2: and back again and all that. 461 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: Thanks, Noel. 462 00:28:10,369 --> 00:28:21,149 Speaker 2: See you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 463 00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:24,140 Speaker 2: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 464 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.