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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck,

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Speaker 2: and Jerry's here too, timing us, telling us to hurry up,

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Speaker 2: scowling at us, even which makes this another average episode

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Speaker 2: of Stuff you Should Know. She said, get this in

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Speaker 2: forty five minutes on the nose, no more, no less,

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Speaker 2: and then she went uh and walked out of the

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Speaker 2: room holding a pillow.

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Speaker 1: Was that me or Joe?

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Speaker 2: That was Jerry?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm usually the timekeeper.

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Speaker 2: Are you? I'd never noticed with your new swatch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I just feel like I'm the one that's

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Speaker 1: like forty five minutes and you're like, no, let's make

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Speaker 1: it three hours.

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Speaker 2: I don't like three hour podcasts, but I also don't

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Speaker 2: like living under the clock, which is why I probably

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Speaker 2: would not have personally liked Frederick Winslow Taylor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, should we talk about this guy?

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Speaker 2: I don't think we have any choice. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: this is not a biopic. It's not a biography or

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Speaker 2: a profile. It's about a man that you can't not

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Speaker 2: talk about. But really this is about his whole system. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I just want to make that clear.

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Speaker 1: To you use people likely, Well, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: hear about that guy.

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Speaker 2: Well, ts, you're gonna have to.

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Speaker 1: Big thanks to Olivia because she pushed out another banger here,

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Speaker 1: thanks in part by this great, great article in The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker from Jill Lapour, who Lvia calls a genius,

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Speaker 1: absolute genius in fact, is a quote she definitely is

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Speaker 1: great article. Anyway, I think the setup that Livia gave

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Speaker 1: is kind of worthy of going over a little bit

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Speaker 1: because when you look at the you know, nineteen hundred

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Speaker 1: through the nineteen twenties and thirties, you looked at in

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Speaker 1: America that was really changing in that these huge Industrial

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Speaker 1: Revolution born industries where all of a sudden, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: now we're kind of corporations and now we have middle

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Speaker 1: managers and CEOs and things, and it's a little different

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Speaker 1: than it used to be, right, And so we need

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Speaker 1: to start kind of really thinking about how to squeeze

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Speaker 1: every dime out of this company we can and make

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Speaker 1: these workers. We'll call it efficiency, but between us, let's say,

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Speaker 1: let's call it working them to the bone until they're

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Speaker 1: near exhaustion so we can maximize profits.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I could just hear our left leaning listeners

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Speaker 2: going boo his. But efficiency was not in and of

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Speaker 2: itself a naughty word on either side of the political

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Speaker 2: spectrum at the time, because you could also hope that

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Speaker 2: a more efficient factory, or a more efficient workforce, or

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Speaker 2: a more efficient whatever would increase productivity but also give

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Speaker 2: workers like more free time and then ideally a larger

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Speaker 2: share of the profit in the form of higher wages.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's how that works, right exactly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine a more naive progressive movement

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Speaker 2: than that, But that's exactly what they were hoping for.

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Speaker 2: But not just hoping for. They were fighting for, agitating

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Speaker 2: for it, doing whatever they could, taking it to the courts.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they were successful, but I think we all know

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Speaker 2: spoiler alert, in the long run they lost thus far.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and a lot of the work being done

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Speaker 1: on efficiency can be laid at the feet of a

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Speaker 1: person and then some other people. But initially, at least

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Speaker 1: this guy that you mentioned, Frederick Winslow Taylor, who was

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Speaker 1: from Philadelphia born in eighteen fifty six, had an attorney

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Speaker 1: father an abolitionists mother. It's a very smart guy and

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Speaker 1: was all set to take Harvard by storm before his

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Speaker 1: eyesight started to fail. Right after that got better. He

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Speaker 1: may not have gone to Harvard, but he was still

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Speaker 1: a really smart guy and ended up studying engineering at

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Speaker 1: night and became a chief engineer for the Enterprise Hydraulic

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Speaker 1: Works in Philly and then Midvale Steel Company.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, at Midvale Steel Company, that's where he really made

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Speaker 2: his name. I think that's where he became the chief engineer.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things he did as he was

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Speaker 2: working his way up was he was, I guess, out

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Speaker 2: of the gate obsessed or at least deeply interested with

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Speaker 2: the idea of doing something in the least number of movements,

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Speaker 2: the most precise way, the most foolproof way, and that

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Speaker 2: if you studied a task closely enough and understood it

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Speaker 2: well enough, you could find the most efficient way to

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Speaker 2: do it. And so over. Like his twenty six year

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Speaker 2: career at Midvale, he conducted more than thirty thousand experiments

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Speaker 2: in metal cutting, figuring out which tool went with, which

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Speaker 2: motion went with you know, know, how to grab the

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Speaker 2: tool the best way. And from that he ended up

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Speaker 2: writing a book called on the Art of Cutting Metals

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Speaker 2: in nineteen oh seven. And from what I saw for

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Speaker 2: years and years, that was considered like a bible in

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Speaker 2: the metal cutting industry, and so he definitely put his

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Speaker 2: money where his mouth is, and that's how he first

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Speaker 2: kind of got into the idea of becoming an efficiency expert.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is a certain kind of brain

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Speaker 1: because I am on that spectrum a little bit and

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Speaker 1: trying to weed out inefficiencies with certain things. But I'm

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Speaker 1: on the side of the spectrum that is also it

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Speaker 1: comes from laziness. Oh yeah, so I'll try and do

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Speaker 1: that because I'm inherently kind of lazy, I think. So

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I look for ways to cut corners to

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Speaker 1: still get the job done right. And I've had people

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Speaker 1: compliment me in the old days, like on film sets, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I see what you're doing there, and you're

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Speaker 1: the kid I would hire twice, whereas the guy next

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Speaker 1: to you who's just like, no, man, let's just make

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Speaker 1: eight trips and just hump it and do it right.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I know, he thinks he's getting it done

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Speaker 1: just the old fashioned way. He's like, but you're the

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Speaker 1: guy we would hire a second time.

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Speaker 2: In your response is like, we'll kind of go home

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Speaker 2: early probably, so, but.

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Speaker 1: That was always my aim. But it's interesting that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I had that a little bit in my brain, but

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Speaker 1: not like this guy did. Like he was obsessed with

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Speaker 1: efficiencies such that he thought, and he's kind of right

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Speaker 1: in some ways that one of the biggest threats to

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Speaker 1: getting something done in a productive efficient way was slacking

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Speaker 1: off in what he called systematic soldiering. And I kind

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Speaker 1: of agree with that to a certain degree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Remember in our Peter Principal episode, we talked about

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Speaker 2: a corollary to that called Parkinson's law, which is like

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Speaker 2: a tongue in cheek law that work expanded to fill

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Speaker 2: the time allotted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So yeah, if you're sitting there like making widgets.

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Speaker 2: Sorry to be cliche, but that's what I'm going With

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Speaker 2: eight or ten hours a day, You're not going to

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Speaker 2: be the most efficient you can be. You're going to

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Speaker 2: be about as efficient as as as ambitious as you are.

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Speaker 2: Like your ambition how far you want to go is

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Speaker 2: basically equaled in some weird ratio to the amount of

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Speaker 2: efficiency that you produce at your job. Right, So if

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Speaker 2: you're like, I'm happy here, I'm not going to bust

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Speaker 2: my hump like that guy to go an extra half

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Speaker 2: mile because I'm not going to get anything in return,

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Speaker 2: So I'm just going to do my job at a

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Speaker 2: pace that I find acceptable and that the people I

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Speaker 2: work for find acceptable. And I mean, if you want

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Speaker 2: to call that slacking off or being lazy, fine, and

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Speaker 2: Frederick Taylor definitely did, But it's also just kind of

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Speaker 2: like being a human being, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And to be clear, because I think it seems

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Speaker 1: like I might have been mischaracterized here. The film set

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Speaker 1: thing was, I wasn't like, let's just do the minimum.

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Speaker 1: I was in the situation, in this specific incident where

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Speaker 1: I was trying to do a little extra work by

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Speaker 1: getting a cart loaded rather than just making a ton

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Speaker 1: of trips, and the guys and he was like, now

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Speaker 1: I'm mess with getting that cart out. Let's just hump

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Speaker 1: all this stuff back and forth. And they were like,

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Speaker 1: hey guys, or to me, hey guy, And I said

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Speaker 1: my name is Chuck, right, and they said, hey, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: you're the guy I would hire twice because you were

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Speaker 1: taking the time to do it more efficiently, not like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I admire like the lazy side.

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Speaker 2: Of you, right, And they appreciated your soft touch with

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Speaker 2: the donkey that pulled the cart.

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Speaker 1: Right, But it was lazy, and that I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to do all those trips. So that's where it initially

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Speaker 1: sprang from, was I don't want to have to tote

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Speaker 1: all that stuff eight times. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the reason you're man, we're really going

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Speaker 2: deep on this. But I think the reason that you're

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Speaker 2: feeling mischaracterized is because you're misusing the word lazy. That's

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Speaker 2: not lazy. That's what they call work harder or work smarter,

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Speaker 2: not harder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you only do that if you get a

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Speaker 1: little laziness in you.

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Speaker 2: No, that's not necessarily true. I think it's just sensible.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but I'm also lazy. Then how's that?

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Speaker 2: Okay, there you go. But they're not necessarily inextricably tied

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Speaker 2: together in that instance.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't think what you just describe qualifies as laziness.

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Speaker 2: But what Frederick Taylor considered laziness he called something called

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Speaker 2: systematic soldiering, which I still can't make heads or tails of.

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Speaker 2: It does not make any sense to me, does it

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Speaker 2: to you?

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Speaker 1: Well? What a soldiering mean?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean you're you go off and

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Speaker 2: fight battles, or you go and follow orders. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what he means.

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Speaker 1: Did you look up soldiering?

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Speaker 2: No? I didn't. I just access to my brain data banks.

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Speaker 1: Well I'm gonna look it up. Go ahead, we'll do

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Speaker 1: a rare uh a rare look Okay, Well, serve as

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Speaker 1: a soldier to aha. Oh well, no, that didn't make

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Speaker 1: any sense either, like soldiering on right persevering, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to me officially as.

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Speaker 2: Well, it makes no sense because that was his term,

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Speaker 2: systematic soldiering.

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Speaker 1: I would call it systematic leaning against something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that's what he called slacking off. And like,

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Speaker 2: this guy was an aristocrat through and through right. His

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Speaker 2: mother's family came over in the early sixteen hundreds, I think,

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Speaker 2: to America. So like he was a wealthy, blue blooded

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Speaker 2: Quaker boy who because his parents were like do gooders.

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Speaker 2: His mom certainly was. She was a suffragette and abolitionist.

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Speaker 2: He was raised to care about humanity, but he also

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Speaker 2: didn't have that spark of compassion that it takes to

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Speaker 2: care about humans individually. So he cared about creating a

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Speaker 2: better society for humans, but he couldn't really help but

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Speaker 2: look down on other people. He considered lower than him,

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Speaker 2: including him. So he did notice things like, you're not

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Speaker 2: working as hard as you can. I'm going to see

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Speaker 2: to it that you work harder. And he felt totally

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Speaker 2: comfortable with filling that role and he actually created that

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Speaker 2: role for himself to phill which is pretty remarkable if

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Speaker 2: you ask me.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So he was at Midvale and he sort

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Speaker 1: of started breaking down the operations of the jobs that

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Speaker 1: they had there at Midvale and he was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's some elementary operations that happen here. So we're going

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Speaker 1: to form an estimating department where we're going to sit

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Speaker 1: around and do time studies, which he got from a

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Speaker 1: class at Phillips Exeter, and we're going to time workers

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Speaker 1: doing all these little small tasks. We're going to add

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Speaker 1: that up to the whole and kind of average it

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Speaker 1: out and say, hey, you should be able to do

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Speaker 1: this in that amount of time, and we'll adjust accordingly,

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Speaker 1: we'll incentivize accordingly. And he said, and you know what else,

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Speaker 1: this is now a new career. I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: a consulting engineer and management and I'm going to charge

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Speaker 1: you to tell you how bad you're doing things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so those management companies like KPMG and Mackenzie,

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Speaker 2: they would not exist ostensibly had Frederick Taylor not created

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Speaker 2: that field. Like that's what he created. These huge, just

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Speaker 2: mega world influencing companies came from this guy basically making

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Speaker 2: up the profession.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what we should We should give

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Speaker 1: a good example here because what he was really most

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Speaker 1: or not most well known for, but something he became

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Speaker 1: very well known for was his work at Bethlehem Steel.

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Speaker 1: And he started looking at the process of loading iron

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Speaker 1: onto railcars pig iron, and said, all right, we need

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Speaker 1: to figure out how much of this stuff is reasonable

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Speaker 1: for one of these men to load onto a railcar.

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Speaker 1: The average right now is twelve and a half tons

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Speaker 1: a day. So what I'm gonna do is I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get ten large, powerful Hungarian workers to and say,

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Speaker 1: heyde as much as you can, as fast as you can.

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Speaker 1: Sixteen and a half tons is your goal. And they

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Speaker 1: did that in fourteen minutes, whereas twelve and a half

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Speaker 1: tons was the daily rate for their average worker. So

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Speaker 1: that's seventy one tons in a ten hour day. He

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Speaker 1: rounds it up to seventy five and then said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know what people get tired and they need breaks.

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Speaker 1: So let's whack off forty percent of that and we'll

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Speaker 1: just make we'll just call it even at forty seven

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Speaker 1: and a half tons per day, which is four times

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Speaker 1: as much as you've usually been doing. That's that's the

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Speaker 1: new expectation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that thing about people getting tired he called

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Speaker 2: the law of heavy laboring. And from what I can tell,

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Speaker 2: he made up that law that I'd put into scare quotes,

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Speaker 2: and this is a really good example of what he did.

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Speaker 2: Like he was supposed to be precise in finding like

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Speaker 2: ultimate efficiency, but he was arbitrarily rounding up and arbitrarily

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Speaker 2: coming up with forty percent off based on this law

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Speaker 2: that he made up. And now you kind of start

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Speaker 2: to get to see like the veil or like the

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Speaker 2: meat that's on the bones. I don't know the analogy

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for, but you can pull back the curtain,

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Speaker 2: that's the one, and see that this stuff is actually

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Speaker 2: not what Frederick Taylor cracked it up to be.

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Speaker 1: The Great Oz exactly so much.

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Speaker 2: Right. It wears no clothes, all right.

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Speaker 1: So when this happened, some people said, I ain't doing this.

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Speaker 1: They quit, they got fired. Some people tried and couldn't

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Speaker 1: do it. Some people were so tired from trying to

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Speaker 1: load that much or that they couldn't come back the

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Speaker 1: next day, and things got really heated. He needed he

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Speaker 1: hired arm guards to walk him home at night. Taylor

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Speaker 1: did because he was so worried. And then he said,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to create a new fake scenario.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that I've seen businesses do that

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Speaker 1: I hate when they create, like, you know, here's our

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Speaker 1: worker Todd and Todd you know, and it's all just

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Speaker 1: made up bs. And that's what he did with Schmidt.

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Speaker 2: Here's the thing though, So Schmidt, yes, was a fictional

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Speaker 2: invention essentially of Taylor's making. But he went around the

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Speaker 2: country giving this this lecture or wrote in his books

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Speaker 2: like as if Schmidt this actually.

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Speaker 1: Happened about Schmidt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a great movie. I really felt uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: when he made a pass at the wife of the

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Speaker 2: fiby couple that he met. Other than that, I thought

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Speaker 2: it was a great movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think at that point that was actually just an

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Speaker 2: outtake of Jack Nicholson doing his thing.

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Speaker 1: Keep rolling the cameras. This is great.

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Speaker 2: So like so he was he put out there that

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Speaker 2: the Schmidt character was like a real deal thing, not

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Speaker 2: a made up thing, not a made up anecdote to

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Speaker 2: prove his point, and he actually did consult at Bethlehem Steel,

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Speaker 2: where Schmidt supposedly worked. But the upshot of all of

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Speaker 2: it was this, there was this guy named Schmidt who

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Speaker 2: was known to work very hard, and he was also

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Speaker 2: very motivated by money because he was building his own

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Speaker 2: house and he he needed as much money as he

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Speaker 2: could get to build said house.

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Speaker 1: But not too bright, right, not too bright.

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Speaker 2: That's a really important point that Taylor would hammer home

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Speaker 2: any chance he got. This guy was sluggish mentally speaking,

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Speaker 2: is the way that he put it. But he got

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Speaker 2: through to him with a pep talk, whereas essentially he said,

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Speaker 2: are you a high priced man? And Schmidt was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. And when he

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Speaker 2: wrote about Schmidt, he replaces w's with VS and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and he's a German immigrant. And he said, well, this

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Speaker 2: is what a high priced man does. He does everything

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Speaker 2: that his manager tells him to do. If your manager

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Speaker 2: tells you to pick up that pig iron and take

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Speaker 2: six steps and then set it down over there, you

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Speaker 2: do that. If your manager tells you to sit down

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Speaker 2: and rest for ninety seconds. Then after ninety seconds he

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Speaker 2: tells you to get up and then go grab that

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Speaker 2: piece of pig iron. You do that too, with no

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Speaker 2: backtalk whatsoever. That's a high priced man.

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Speaker 1: You want to be a mister big boy pants.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Press men make more money. So we'll give you

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Speaker 2: not just the dollar fifteen an hour that you're making,

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Speaker 2: we'll give you a dollar eighty five for making this

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Speaker 2: forty seven and a half tone quota. And all you

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Speaker 2: have to do is do what your manager tells you.

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Speaker 2: And this is the other thing that I guess Frederick

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Speaker 2: Taylor revolutionized in a way. He divided the workforce into

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Speaker 2: two parts, managers who had the brains and did the

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Speaker 2: bossing around, and workers who were, according to Taylor, meant

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Speaker 2: to do exactly what their managers told them. And if

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Speaker 2: you put the two together, you would have the most

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Speaker 2: efficient way to say, like load pig iron onto a

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Speaker 2: railroad car.

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Speaker 1: That's right in this anecdote, who that he, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of reached around as if it were real. He said,

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Speaker 1: Then I did this. It works so great. Schmid was

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Speaker 1: so happy, and Roland in dough I got all of

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Speaker 1: his coworkers to jump aboard because I showed him what

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Speaker 1: a mister big boy pants look like, and everybody wanted

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Speaker 1: big boy pants and so everybody, as long as you

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Speaker 1: just do what your boss says, then you're going to

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Speaker 1: make more dough and forget the fact that I'm choosing,

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Speaker 1: you know, the very strongest workers to set the standard

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Speaker 1: for everyone. And then in nineteen eleven a US House

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Speaker 1: committee said, yeah, but we can't just forget that, because

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Speaker 1: you can't just pick the strongest worker and say that's

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Speaker 1: the standard for everyone. And so he got into a

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Speaker 1: bit of a tit for tat in that committee meeting,

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Speaker 1: I guess with the chairman, William Ballshop Wilson, and he said,

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Speaker 1: you know what about if you don't have big boy

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Speaker 1: pants men on your staff and like or all big

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Speaker 1: boy pants men. And he said, well, it has no

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Speaker 1: place for a bird that can sing but won't. And

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Speaker 1: he kind of got smacked down for that because he

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Speaker 1: was just lifting lines out of books that he had written.

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Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, also, William Wilson said basically like, we're not

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Speaker 2: dealing with singing birds. We're dealing with men here who

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Speaker 2: are part of society and for whom or for whose

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Speaker 2: benefit society is organized, right, so you can't essentially, you

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Speaker 2: can't treat people like automatons and drones and robots. You

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Speaker 2: have to consider them as human beings. And the lines

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Speaker 2: from his book that you mentioned, apparently Jillipoorr reported that

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Speaker 2: he did so poorly in this committee hearing that by

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Speaker 2: the way, if you want to ever be nervous about

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Speaker 2: a committee hearing, you have to go testify at go

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Speaker 2: to one that's literally named after you. This was this

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Speaker 2: hearing was called the House Committee to Investigate Taylor, not Taylorism,

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Speaker 2: Taylor and other systems of shop management. And so he

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Speaker 2: actually ordered one of his underlings to go steal William

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Speaker 2: Wilson's copy of his book, and I guess didn't wasn't successful,

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Speaker 2: and just kind of went ahead with the terrible testimony.

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Speaker 2: But as we'll see, he used it to turn bad

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Speaker 2: publicity into any publicity, which is good publicity.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The long inshort with Bethlehem Steele, at least

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Speaker 1: was that they fired him. They quit the tailor's and

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Speaker 1: methods that he had brought in, and he said, all right,

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Speaker 1: pay me one hundred thousand dollars and we'll call it even,

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Speaker 1: which is about three and a half million bucks today,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably a good time for a break, eh, agreed.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll come back and move on from Taylor

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Speaker 1: for a moment to talk about the Gilbreaths right after this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, you mentioned that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: the Gilbreaths, So I say we do that. Now. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about Frank and Lillian Gilbreath, and anyone who has

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Speaker 2: ever read the book or seen the movie or the

386
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Speaker 2: remake Cheaper by the Dozen, this is the family that

387
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Speaker 2: that movie and that book were based on. Frank, Lily

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Speaker 2: and Gilbreath were one of the more amazing interesting couples

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Speaker 2: that came out of the twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And two of their kids wrote that

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Speaker 1: book in nineteen forty eight, and you know, it was fun.

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Speaker 1: It's a classic for a reason.

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Speaker 2: They remade it for a reason, for sure, to make money.

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Speaker 1: Frank was a bricklayer in his earlier life, and he

395
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Speaker 1: was one of these people that thought, including too but

396
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Speaker 1: not limited to cat skinning, that there was one best

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Speaker 1: way to do any task. And so he was one

398
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Speaker 1: of those guys where he was like, hey, that scaffold

399
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Speaker 1: for laying bricks is kind of great, But what if

400
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Speaker 1: there was a shelf on the scaffold for those bricks

401
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Speaker 1: and mortar. You don't got to bend over and pick

402
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Speaker 1: that stuff up. And what if you had some really

403
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Speaker 1: low paid laborers that would stack the bricks on the

404
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Speaker 1: frames for them, positioned in the right direction so they

405
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Speaker 1: don't even have to turn the bricks. Like really drilling

406
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Speaker 1: down on these efficiencies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems like Frank kind of came up

408
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Speaker 2: with this interest independently of Frederick Taylor, even though he

409
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Speaker 2: and Lillian and Taylor would essentially form kind of a

410
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Speaker 2: cadre of cohorts. I guess, yeah, this is like an

411
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Speaker 2: independent thinks this is an independent. These were two independent

412
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Speaker 2: groups who eventually came together because they helped develop this

413
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Speaker 2: field out of thin air. So what the Gilberts did.

414
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Speaker 2: Lillian and Frank together they formed the Gilbert Inc. A

415
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Speaker 2: management consulting firm. They got really, really in the weeds

416
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Speaker 2: about the movements it took to carry out a task,

417
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Speaker 2: and they figured out that you could break any task

418
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Speaker 2: down into eighteen different kinds of movements. Right, so you're

419
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Speaker 2: not necessarily going to have all eighteen but no matter

420
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Speaker 2: what task you're talking about, it's going to be made

421
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Speaker 2: up of no more than those eighteen specific kind of movements,

422
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Speaker 2: things like I'm searching for an object with your eye,

423
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Speaker 2: grasping an object, reaching for it, disassembling it. And they

424
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Speaker 2: called these things third bligs, which is their name roughly

425
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: spelled backwards.

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Speaker 1: Do you think when they met Taylor initially they were

427
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Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, you're into efficiency, and so

428
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Speaker 1: are we. And Taylor said, I think you mean a

429
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Speaker 1: fish and they just like fainted.

430
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're right. They're like, you're our guy.

431
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Speaker 1: Uh yeah. Third bligs. So they were also big into

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Speaker 1: rich hall and sniglets. Uh not to date myself, but

433
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Speaker 1: uh yeah. They made up a word, and they said

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Speaker 1: any action you can take is a third blig, and

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Speaker 1: we want to get rid of as many third bligs

436
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: as possible to make efficiency the most, to maximize it

437
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: as much as one possibly can.

438
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to do that so they would use their kids.

439
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 2: They ended up having a dozen kids, eleven of whom

440
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: made it to adulthood. One of them died at age

441
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 2: five of diphtheria. Sadly, and I don't know how, but

442
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: they planned to have six boys and six girls, and

443
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: I think they were successful at that. No idea how

444
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 2: they did that, because we're talking about the beginning of

445
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: the twentieth century.

446
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: It's called luck. Okay, there is no way to do that.

447
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: And they decided to raise their kids in the under

448
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 2: these principles of efficiency. But they weren't weirdo clinical types,

449
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: like this was a tight, cool family. Like the kids

450
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: were participatory, Like they would have family meetings and each

451
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 2: kid had a vote, and so they would have a

452
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: family meeting and someone would put forward a motion like

453
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: I say, we get a dog, and someone would second it,

454
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: and then they put it to a vote, and then

455
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: you know, the eyes had it. So they ended up

456
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: getting a dog they named mister Chairman. Like that was

457
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: how they ran their family. But they were all very

458
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: focused on efficiency because they were obsessed with it, but

459
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: not in a dileterious way or a deletrious way. They

460
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: were I guess the best way to put it is

461
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: Lilian was searching for the most efficient way to do

462
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: something so that you have more free time to go

463
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: do happy things, she said, So it can increase your

464
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: happiness minutes essentially. So it was a really different viewpoint

465
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: of the same thing compared to Frederick Taylor.

466
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Taylor you kind of talked about a

467
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: little bit early on, but he did think it was

468
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: a win win. He was like, this is great because

469
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: it'll run more efficiently and you know, it'll trickle down essentially.

470
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: They didn't call it that yet, but that's sort of

471
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: the same notion that like it'll just trickle down to

472
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: the worker all this efficiency and they'll get better wages

473
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: and stuff will be cheaper and stuff like that, Like

474
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: management will never ever take advantage of that and make

475
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: you work harder just to increase profits exactly, And of

476
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: course that's exactly what happened in every case. But I don't, like,

477
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,239
Speaker 1: I'm kind of wondering about Taylor's heart and like what

478
00:25:58,359 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: was in there? You know?

479
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I explained it already. I'm sticking

480
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: with my idea.

481
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think he's one of those guys

482
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: that was so brain obsessed on efficiency. I don't know

483
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: that he had like I don't know if he thought

484
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: that part through such that he was like some evil

485
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: person set out to exploit a worker.

486
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: No, I don't think he was evil. I don't think

487
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: that he set out to exploit workers. But I think

488
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: even after he saw what his invention was being used for,

489
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: he was indifferent to that, and that says volumes about him.

490
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: He never denounced it, he never called people out for

491
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: misusing it, and he actually helped foster it's misused to

492
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 2: exploit workers. So I think he was a bit of

493
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: a misanthroat, not evil, and that wasn't ever his intention

494
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: to be evil. But when it turned kind of evil,

495
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: he was he was like, sure, let's keep going if

496
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: you guys are giving me money.

497
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: I wonder if he might have been in an age

498
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: where there weren't certain diagnoses available for what he, you know,

499
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: may have had going on.

500
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, for sure. I mean it's possible. I think

501
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: that we're barreling toward a future where every single person

502
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: has a diagnosis of some sort or another.

503
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe.

504
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be interesting.

505
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: You mean, like there's no perfect person and everyone has

506
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: an issue that they're dealing with.

507
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think we already know that,

508
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: but we haven't. We haven't come up with a label

509
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: for every single one of those tests of issues that

510
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: people are working with. That's the difference that I'm talking about.

511
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I don't know. I think sometimes

512
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: that thing empowers people.

513
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 2: I agree. I don't think. I'm not saying there's anything

514
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: wrong with it. I'm just entanted to see like where

515
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: we're going. Yeah, but yes, I agree, But we've in

516
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: large part of the society scuttled the idea of the

517
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: uber minch and Nietzsche is very unhappy about that.

518
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what Nietzsche can do. What I'll tell

519
00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: y'all fair, Okay. Ironically, though, it was a Supreme Court

520
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: justice who we've talked about I feel like quite a

521
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: bit on the show, who kind of bumped Tailor up

522
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: to celebrity status. Yeah, how did we pronounce his name

523
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: the first twenty five times we said it?

524
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: It's brand Ice. Okay, that sounds right like light ice,

525
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: but a little different.

526
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: Right like bud Ice.

527
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, didn't Miller Light have an ice too? Didn't everybody

528
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: have an ice for a.

529
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: While light Ice? I don't know.

530
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: Oh, I screwed it up then because I should have

531
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: said bud Ice. But yeah, that's what I was going for.

532
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: I know Milwaukee's best had an ice.

533
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: What does it deal with that ice brewed? What even

534
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: was that?

535
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: I think it got you tanked faster. Really, yeah, I

536
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: think it had something that it messed with the alcohol

537
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: content or the way it was delivered or something like that.

538
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: So you had to drink seventeen Miller lits instead of fourteen.

539
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: Right, exactly, No, the opposite, you had to drink twelve

540
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: instead of fourteen.

541
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: Okay, all right. Anyway back to nineteen ten, brand Ice

542
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: Lewis brand Ice, Supreme Court Justice, called a meeting with

543
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: the Gilbreaths and the tailor Rights. Taylor couldn't come, but

544
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: he sent his representatives and said, I want to talk

545
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: about what I'm calling scientific management. And I am concerned

546
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: because I see what's happening with big business and I

547
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: think it's getting out of hand. I want to break

548
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: up these monopolies, and I think the consumer and the

549
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: workers should be served. And I think I called one

550
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: couple here who's probably interested in that, and another group

551
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: of people who sounds like they probably aren't.

552
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Brandeis is ironic because he was died in

553
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: the world progressive. Like you said, he was worried about

554
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: big business, and so the idea that he's the one

555
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: that made this concept that's historically viewed as exploitive of

556
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: workers famous and like introduced to the world and essentially

557
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: gave it it's like breakout moment. It's just terribly ironic.

558
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: But the whole basis of that is that he was

559
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: arguing before the Interstate Commerce Commission, which was holding hearings

560
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: on railroad rate hikes. The railroad said stuff getting expensive.

561
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: We need to increase the prices that we charged to

562
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: carry freight to move freight, and of course that has

563
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: cascading effects all throughout society, and prices we're going to

564
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: go up, and Brandeis represented a bunch of companies that

565
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: we're gonna have to pay those increased rates. And Brandeis's

566
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: argument was that the railroad companies don't need to raise

567
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: their rates, they need to get more efficient. And here's

568
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: how they can do it. This guy named Taylor has

569
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: figured out a scientific way of getting more efficient and

570
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: that's how they can keep their prices low and still

571
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: keep their profits high. Yeah.

572
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: I know, it's a lot of press coverage on this,

573
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: and this is really what pushed Taylor over the edge

574
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: as far as becoming kind of famous for what he

575
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: was doing. And that is the year, I'm sorry. The

576
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: next year is when he put out The Principles of

577
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: Scientific Management, which was probably easily the biggest business book,

578
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: maybe at the twentieth century, but at least the first

579
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: half of the twentieth century.

580
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And he was riding on the publicity

581
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: from that inter State Commerce Commission hearing, but also that

582
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: Congressional hearing that came I think later that same year.

583
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: He saw an opportunity to get his name out there,

584
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: even though his name was kind of being dragged through

585
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: the mud.

586
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: That's right. And one thing about Taylorism that we would

587
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: learn soon enough. And I guess Gilbreatheism. Did they even

588
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: call it dot No.

589
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: I don't think so. They weren't. They weren't those types.

590
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna call it that gil Breath.

591
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: Theism was that it didn't have to be kept to

592
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: the workforce because Lily and Gilbreath found herself alone for

593
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: the last forty eight years of her life when Frank

594
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: died a heart attack at the age of fifty five

595
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty four, and she said, all right, don't

596
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: tell any money. I'm no homemaker myself, not into it

597
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: at all. I don't even do the cooking in my house.

598
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: But I think I can shift these efficiency ideas to

599
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: the house and make the home place a more efficient

600
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: workplace for getting everything done from like back, came in

601
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: to baking biscuits.

602
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, have you ever heard of the work triangle in

603
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: a kitchen?

604
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a classic kitchen chef thing.

605
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: She came up with that as far as I know, Yeah,

606
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: for those who did not know that, but yeah, but

607
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: for those of you who don't know what it is,

608
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: the kitchen triangle is like the places where you do

609
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: the most work, and so the ideas that they should

610
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: be all within a step or two from one another.

611
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: The sink, the oven, and the ice cream maker. I

612
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: don't remember what the third one is the dishwasher.

613
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: Dishwasher.

614
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: Interesting, I think those are the three today at least. Okay,

615
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: So anyway, she came up with that. If you have

616
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: a kitchen island, you can thank her. I've seen. So. Yeah,

617
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: she's just kind of pivoted because people were finding out

618
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: that there was a woman that ran Gilbert Inc. The

619
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: management consulting firm, and we're just walking away from their

620
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: accounts because it was run by a woman. So she

621
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: had no choice. She had twelve eleven kids to raise,

622
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: and had to provide forms she wanted to set model

623
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: to college. So yeah, she pivoted to home EC. But

624
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: it wasn't just her. It's not like she invented homeck

625
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: out a whole cloth. It was already being developed by

626
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: a very famous or should be famous, a lesbian couple,

627
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: Flora Rose and Martha Van Rensselaer. Yeah Rensselaer, right.

628
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: I have no idea how to pronounce.

629
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: It r e n s s e l a e R. Rentler. Yeah,

630
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: that's what I'm going with. And the reason I specifically

631
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: called them out as a lesbian couple is because they

632
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: were out as a lesbian couple in I believe the

633
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties or thirties. I had a I mean, you

634
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: just did not do that, and they were like, say something,

635
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: just just bring it, and they were They just went

636
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 2: unchallenged for their lifetime from what I knew. But they

637
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: they wanted to turn working in the home into something scientific,

638
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: domestic science, which kind of elevated at status as well

639
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: as made things easier for the woman working at the home.

640
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and eventually you could even find Taylorism in public

641
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: public schools. And it's interesting to think of it this way.

642
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: There was a Massachusetts superintendent who told the National Education

643
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: Association that educators needed to analyze the returns of their investment. Rationally,

644
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: we ought to purchase no more Greek instruction at the

645
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: rate of five point nine pupil recitations for a dollar.

646
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: The price must go down, or will she, or we

647
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: shall invest in something else. And it sounds silly, but

648
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: I get that. It just sounds like a funny way

649
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: to talk about it. But it's basically like, we need

650
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: to invest in these kids the things that really matter,

651
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: and not necessarily reciting a Greek poem or something like that.

652
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: Sure, the only question is who decides what really matters?

653
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things about that is

654
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: that at the time when that guy was talking like that,

655
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: kids in public schools were viewed as being trained and

656
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: molded into the workers of tomorrow. So it was the

657
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: government and the economy who decided what was important. And yeah,

658
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: we weren't making a lot of money off of reciting

659
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: Greek poems like you were saying, so that would get

660
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: scuttled in the face of say, I don't know shop class,

661
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: maybe what class?

662
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: Shop?

663
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: Shop?

664
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I had shop. We didn't have a car

665
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: auto shop though, did you guys have that?

666
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: No. I was just fascinated by that they had one

667
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: unsaved by the bell, and I always thought that was

668
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: the coolest thing.

669
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: It felt like something that was in generation's previous to us.

670
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: We just had shop class where you made lamps and

671
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 1: stuff like that.

672
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: Well, there was a huge shift in the American economy

673
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: from car making to lamp making the early eighties, so

674
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's what the result was.

675
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: Shall we take our second break or soldier through.

676
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 2: Systematic soldier? Yeah, I say we take our second break.

677
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: Okay, let's do it. Be right back. Okay, we're back

678
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: by the way. I think the kitchen triangles is probably

679
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: the fridge and not the dishwasher, would be my guess.

680
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot about the fridge. Yes, yes, absolutely, than.

681
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: I bet it's I bet you're right, though, I bet

682
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: it's sink, stove of and fridge would be my guess.

683
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I think you're right, because what if you

684
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: don't have a dishwasher, right, And I'm sure that she

685
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: didn't have a dishwasher in the nineteen thirties and forties,

686
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: so you know, yeah, so you're you're right. Chuck just

687
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 2: say it again.

688
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: I think it was the fridge. Okay, all right, So

689
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk a little bit about just sort of

690
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: what like what Detaylor is accomplish. Ultimately, there is a

691
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: lot of irony in that. You know, a lot of

692
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: it was so scientific supposedly, but a lot of the

693
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: stuff was made up or just sort of you know, yeah,

694
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: made up or kind of a sham. Right, This wasn't new.

695
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: Stuff like timing people on tasks and teaching people to

696
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: do do more specific things had been around for a

697
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: long time. But one of the effects of tailorism is

698
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: definitely like you know, de skilling a worker making them

699
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: feel and not that working is all about emotions, but

700
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: you don't want to make your employee feel like a

701
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: robot that can be replaced by a robot. You want

702
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: to give them a little bit of agency ideally and

703
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: a job and not just say move your body this way,

704
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: move your hand that way, punch that thing and then

705
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,959
Speaker 1: return back to position one.

706
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so de skilling workers taking away the overall

707
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: understanding of making say like oven and just giving them

708
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: the one job of putting the door on the oven

709
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: as it's coming down the assembly line, not only does

710
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: that take away from job satisfaction, it also makes you

711
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: way more replaceable because you don't have to train somebody

712
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: to build a whole oven. All you have to do

713
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: is train them to put that oven door on, and

714
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: then you train somebody else to put the thermostad in

715
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: the oven, and so on and so forth. And you,

716
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 2: the owner of the factory, has that oven you want,

717
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: but you have a bunch of replaceable workers that you

718
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: can pay fairly low wages even combined compared to somebody

719
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 2: who builds the oven from scratch. That is a huge

720
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: Like you said, that was already underway, but Taylorism and

721
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 2: the fact that it was so pervasive and widespread, especially

722
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: in America in the first half of the twentieth century,

723
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: really solidified that as like a basis of the American workforce.

724
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, another effect, I mean, I guess we've kind of

725
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: said it in several different ways from the beginning, but

726
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that the Gilbress had that there

727
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: would be a happiness quotient involved and where you could

728
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: do work more efficiently so you could just have more

729
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: time and better wages to spend with your family. It just,

730
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, it didn't work out that way. Even though

731
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: the whole idea of Taylorism at its base isn't inherently

732
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: anti worker, it sort of ends up being that way

733
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: when the profits are being spread around the top tier

734
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: and all they want is more and more of those profits.

735
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: Yes, And so to be clear, it wasn't like every

736
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: single time Taylor showed up like that's just how it went.

737
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: There were some successful pushbacks over the years. There's one

738
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: specifically at the Watertown Arsenal in Massachusetts in nineteen eleven.

739
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: They make guns, I think for the government. It was

740
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 2: a federal arsenal, and Taylor sent one of his emissaries

741
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: essentially told him to just make up a number. You

742
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: don't even need the stop watch part, and I think

743
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: word of that got out and really kind of undermined that,

744
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 2: but also just the process of being time doing your job.

745
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: One of the workers said, I'm not doing that. You

746
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 2: can't time me, and he was fired on the spot,

747
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 2: and the rest of the workers were like, oh yeah,

748
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: well we're going on strike. And they ended up being

749
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: successful because again this was a federal arsenal and those

750
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: congressional hearings to investigate Taylor. One of the results of

751
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 2: them was that the US federal government banned Taylorism from

752
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: being used in any way, shape or form in any

753
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 2: kind of federal facility or agency.

754
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:30,479
Speaker 1: Yeah.

755
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, but overall, I mean, Taylor certainly won the day.

756
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's just how the economy is in

757
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 2: America and other like minded countries. Like, even though we've

758
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 2: kind of walked away from it overtly, it's just gotten

759
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: more and more entrenched over the years, rather than further

760
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: and further away.

761
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I mean probably the most you know,

762
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: the biggest contribution was it just raised the awareness and

763
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: an obsession with productivity, and productivity is great, it's not

764
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: like that's a bad thing. But again, like when you're

765
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: dealing with human beings, to feel like a cog and

766
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: to feel completely replaceable, there's no way like you're not

767
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: serving your own purpose as a as a business owner,

768
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: because you're not gonna have good and happy employees ultimately,

769
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: and replacing employee after employee, even if you're just training

770
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: them to put the oven door on, that's still an inefficiency,

771
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: you know.

772
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: Right, No, for sure, And yeah, that's a really great point.

773
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: Do you want to keep employees?

774
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm sure some being counter at some company

775
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: somewhere was like, oh, yeah, I still make more money

776
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: hiring and training employees than you do making them happy,

777
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: although that seems to not be the case. I was

778
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 2: reading up on management consulting, which I think deserves its

779
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: own episode down the line because apparently it's just totally fraudulent,

780
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: So I think it'll be a really great interesting episode.

781
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: But some studies have shown, from what I saw just

782
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: briefly reading about this, that the happier your workers are,

783
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: or I should say, economies that have happier workers, like

784
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: more fulfilled workers, typically have their richer For the most part.

785
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 2: I guess America as an outlier because I think overall

786
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: workers are not necessarily happy with their jobs or lack

787
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: of job. But supposedly if you make if you invest

788
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: in your workers well being and actual happiness and fulfillment

789
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: with their job, they're going to work more for you.

790
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: They're going to work harder because they care about what

791
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 2: they're doing.

792
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: Totally.

793
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 2: So yeah. And then one of the other big things

794
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 2: that shows that Taylorism is still alive and well today

795
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: Chuck is computers, AI, whatever you want to call it,

796
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: is they've fulfilled or they're fulfilling the role of managers

797
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: that Taylor envisioned. So remember the manager was in charge

798
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: of figuring out the best way to do something and

799
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: then instructing the worker to do it exactly that way

800
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: at exactly that time. That is what computers do today

801
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 2: for workers, which is a bizarre reversal of authority, I

802
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: guess if you think about it, but that's the way

803
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: it is, especially in places like you know, big warehouses

804
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: or call centers. Computers essentially running the.

805
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: Show, yeah, for sure, and it created the management consultant industry.

806
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: I think we should do one on that. I don't

807
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure you remember, and I won't be very specific here,

808
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: but because we've been owned by a lot of companies

809
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: over the years, but one of one time, one of

810
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: the companies that I'm just hired a dude that came

811
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: in and we were like, who's this guy? And I

812
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: can't remember someone who knows how these things work? Took

813
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: us aside and they were like, he's I guess, I

814
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: don't know if he was a management consultant or what

815
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: his official job was, but they're like, his job is

816
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: to come in here and fire people and rip this

817
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: place apart and then probably get a nice exit and

818
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: move on to another job where he'll do that exact

819
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: same thing.

820
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what the industry.

821
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: Does. You remember that guy?

822
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 2: No, I don't remember that guy. You got to tell me, please,

823
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: do I know?

824
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: Jerry is like screaming his name off air? Right now?

825
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: Just one last thing. Do you have anything more about taylorism?

826
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: Uh?

827
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 2: No, okay, great, well then I do have just one

828
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 2: last thing. If you want kind of a lighthearted look

829
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 2: comedy with heart efficiency, check out the nineteen ninety one

830
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: film The Efficiency Expert starring Anthony Hopkins. Oh.

831
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: I thought you're gonna say, gung ho.

832
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 2: That was Yeah, kind of a different one, but yeah,

833
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a lot of crossover for sure.

834
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: What's this Tony Hopkins picture? What is it?

835
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: The Efficiency Expert? It's exactly what you never described. And

836
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: he ends up in a I think a factory where

837
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: the workers make they change his view of things. I

838
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: think they kind of turn him around. Oh I remember, correctly,

839
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it.

840
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: That wouldn't have worked with the other guy that I mentioned.

841
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: He was unflappable.

842
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: Well, anyway, we're about to end, well, wait, hold on,

843
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: we got to do listener mail, don't we Yeah, and

844
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: then I'll tell you by the way, Chuck, I gotta

845
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: tell you that we ended on forty five minutes on

846
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 2: the nose.

847
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: Holy cal yep.

848
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: Way to go champ. Oh. Since I said way to

849
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 2: go champ of course, that means it's time for listener mail.

850
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: This is just a nice thank you. Hey, guys, heartfelt

851
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: thank you. Started listening in twenty twelve, and my time.

852
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: Although my time spent listening to podcast is fluctuated, yours

853
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: has been one of the constants. Started listening to keep

854
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: my mind occupied when I had hours of mundane tasks

855
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: in the lab where I worked after college, and I've

856
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: continue to listen through a career change, relationship changes, getting

857
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: my first dog, Luna. He sent a picture of Luna sweet,

858
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: and becoming a homeowner. I'm listening still as I'm planning

859
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: a second career change and going through a little lonelier

860
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: stretch of my life. In your podcast kept me laughing

861
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: and feeling connected to the world through challenging times. And

862
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: I sometimes feel like there isn't the right combination of

863
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: words to express my gratitude completely.

864
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: I feel like they just put those words together.

865
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: I feel like you're right. Some of my favorite moments

866
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: in recent shows have been Chuck's throwaway line about a

867
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: fairy hoax confession happening at a Men Without Hats concert.

868
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: It's got Josh chuckle not once twice, but three times.

869
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: And in the fifteenth annual s YSK Halloween Spectacular, the

870
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Speaker 1: curious sound like laughter yet not laughter that Josh made,

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Speaker 1: which sounded like it had Chuck literally crying with laughter,

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Speaker 1: which is absolutely true. That maybe the most I've ever

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Speaker 1: laughed at something that you did.

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Speaker 2: I think it is man.

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Speaker 1: I hope that you know for some of your listeners,

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Speaker 1: your podcast has been as meaningful to us as the

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00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: Simpsons or Peanuts may have been to you.

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Speaker 2: Wow Wow, Wow? Who was that?

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Speaker 1: Stanley knows how to drive it home. He signs it

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Speaker 1: all the best Stanley A seed.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice. I thanks, Stanley. You're a true listener through

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Speaker 2: and through, aren't you. I love that humble like I

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Speaker 2: can't figure out how to put the words together, but.

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Speaker 1: Here they are, yeah, in perfect order, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you want to be like Stanley and make

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Speaker 2: me say wow, not once, not twice, but thrice, then

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00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 2: you can try your hand at it. Send us an

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Speaker 2: email to Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.