WEBVTT - Ep. 149: Path of the Puma 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.680 This is me e your podcasting a shirtless severely bug 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:24.320 bitten in my case, underwear lessening past. You can't predict anything, Okay, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:29.800 Jim Williams and your your book Path of the Puma. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.120 We gotta talk about that name. We will, but I 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.000 think I'll tell you. The thing that surprising most about 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.199 that book, like the singular fact that I would have 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:45.000 never imagined, is that you're saying in here that, like 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.960 at the end of the last ice Age, so the 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.080 place of seeing Hollo scene transition, when we lost all 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.480 the crazy animals everybody likes to think about, like ma'am 0:00:53.560 --> 0:01:00.840 as the massodons, that the North America lost mountain lions. Yes, well, 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:06.360 so the genetic work that's been done is that um, 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:11.240 mountain lions and and other species retracted south for a 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.280 little while and then recolonized a second time. So if 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.760 you show if you had shown up, um, if you 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.520 had shown up on the Great Plains or the Rockies 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.240 or anywhere in what we now consider like the lower 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.720 forty eight, there was a period of time nine thousand 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.319 years ago, ten thousand years ago, whatever, when you wouldn't 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.400 have found a mountain lion. Potentially, yes, but there were 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.400 other species of cats here too. There was an American lion, yeah, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.280 but they went extinct cheetah. Yes, at different times. I mean, 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.720 we don't know exactly, but with the fossil record and 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.840 now with some of the genetic work with the cats, yes, 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.720 there was a big retraction where perhaps they weren't there 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.640 depending upon where you were, and then refilled in, like 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.320 filled back in from South America. Well, yeah, you got 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.120 the Central American and bridge and the conditions that were 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.880 there that were conducive to not only cats, they need 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:06.840 something to eat, they have to prey. So there was 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:11.200 probably some mix of you know, is there food in 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.800 the grocery store or are their shoppers you know, or both? 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:19.640 And and yes that that that's the current thought and 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:24.919 right now, so they refilled in. And is it true 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:26.920 that now or was it true at the time of 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.040 European contact or is it both? I guess that mountain 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:36.800 lions are enjoy the widest distribution of any land mammal 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.880 in the Western hemisphere. Yes, yes, you're correct on on 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.920 on both counts. And if you think about it, um, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.720 you know, there was all always native cultures present and 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.040 and mountain lions, and and that there's a whole bunch 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.560 of different names for mountain lions as humans, and depending 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:58.799 upon on on tribal culture and ancestor stories, there's lots 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:00.679 of different names, depend upon you're out in the United 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.360 States and in which tribe they play a significant role 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.079 in in pre Columbian civilization and in the Americas, and 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.560 then of course, um, you know, as this country was 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.360 settled by white Europeans for the most part. Yeah, the 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.440 cats were here from coast to coast, and slowly but surely, 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.600 you know, we were really effective at at reducing a 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.800 whole host of species moving west. Yeah, I want to 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.760 talk about that project of a limit, like are very 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.720 successful but not totally successful efforts to eliminate them from 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.640 the face of the earth. But what so they can 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.560 extend from you talk about in your book. That's why 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.520 I set the table here a little bit. You talk 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.800 about in your book there's an area in Patagonia where 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:52.000 they prey on penguins, and then they're all the way 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:57.000 up into southern Yukon. Yes, so they're like they're like 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.320 it's a continuous it's like a continuous strand of them 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.120 extending that distance pretty much. So it's fascinating to me 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.360 and as a wildlife biologist and particularly working in Montana 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.720 or you know, in the Western United States, per se 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.880 to find you know, my colleagues down there picking cats 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.839 up with penguins in their mouth. And these aren't the 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.839 ice penguins you think of. These are the magillantic penguins. 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.839 But they're very similar. They're a penguin and they they 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.200 nest in these colonies like a peri dog colony right 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.279 on the coast. And what you have to remember with 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.680 a cat with a puma and and by the way, 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:33.960 a mountain lion, a cougar of puma, it's all the 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.120 same thing. You know, we'll talk about sub subspecies if 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.359 you know, I want the subspecies and popular names are 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.760 things I want to get quick. Well, So the back 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.599 to the penguins though, if you think about it, this animal, 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.600 it's a very efficient um stock and ambush predator and 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.719 they typically and most of the research that's been done 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:58.640 take the most vulnerable and abundant prey. And Kenny logan 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.960 researcher in New Mexico, worked on cats for a long time. 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.760 Um that was actually his quote, and it's it's it 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.960 bears out in every single project. So if penguins are there, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.520 it shouldn't surprise us. But to me it looked very 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.200 awkward to see penguin in a puma's mouth on a 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.719 camera trap photo. And then you go north. You mentioned 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:23.080 the Yukon, so you know, unlike a Lynx or even 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.880 they're more similar to a bobcat at puma is. But 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.839 unlike a Lynx, which is built for the cold, deep snow, 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.440 they're light, they got thick fur um you know, the 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.200 whole hair Lynx relationship amount lines kind of the sports 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.719 car of the cats there for shorter. They need a 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.280 lot of meat. They're gonna sink in the snow, so 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:43.080 there you know where they can get around and where 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.320 they can be effective at finding food. It's going to 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.400 be limited a little bit moving north, So historically about 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.000 central b c. Alberta, there's kind of a line. But 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:56.720 as we've explored and opened up habitat for um oil 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.280 and gas, there are strips of land that produce all 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.400 of a sudden deer and elk food, and deer and 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:04.520 elk can move north while on the backs of deer 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.800 and elk, these cats have punched the north into the 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.520 pretty far north and in fact, the furthest North was 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.240 a cat that was found frozen in the back of 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.880 a of an old car. And uh, I read about that, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.520 but I don't even understand it. Yeah, it probably curled 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.200 up in there, probably thought it was you know the 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.599 cats like cover. We can talk about that too, But 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.520 probably I thought it was a great place to rest 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.240 and starved to death. Cattle starve to death. Mountain lions do. 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.200 And you know every year, depending upon where they're at 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.760 and and there their plane of health and winter condition 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.359 and pray abundance, they can starve. I mean, if they 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.679 don't eat, they die. Didn't one turn up? I remember 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.599 reading this years ago, that one turned up in the 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.240 Mackenzie Delta, but its the years have been frozen off. Yeah, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.479 that's pretty common. I've I've handled cats even here in 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:54.560 Montana with you know, the tips of the tail, the 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.920 tips of the years. Uh, you know, winters. We we 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.479 we live a pretty cushy life. We're not out there nature. 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.360 A friend of ours just how in Handler. I don't 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.600 know if he killed her friend call, but they killed 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:11.120 one that only had three toes And what do you 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.120 think fight or do you think it could have been 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.240 frost fighter? And lose it to that I'd be guessing. Yeah, yeah, 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.360 all the above. Yeah, I found him. You know, I've 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.520 had a cat. I talked about him in the book 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.960 as a male. Yes, how Man named him, you know, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.320 and I call it cat number six or whatever. But 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.160 it's just you know, as biologists, you're trying to name stuff. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.000 But you know, my Howman, they named every single animal 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.600 because they know and they can relate to that. And 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.320 he was missing an eyeball. I mean, probably lost it 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.640 in a fight with another male, would be my guess. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.080 You know. Yeah, that was an interesting story reading about 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.640 old Hoss. Another cool story. Yeah, an rcle story in 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.280 the book? Is it this? I know this wasn't you, 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:55.760 but there's an eyewitness account of a lion we got. 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.440 Let's the next thing we talked. I was, let's talking 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.840 about names, and let's settle on a name. A lion. 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:04.560 Mountain lion is on a mule deer. Someone sees this. 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.080 The mule deer bucks the lion off and then they 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.960 getting a scuffle and he actually sticks the line when 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.480 his antler. That happened right out. If you look at 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.680 your window here in Bozeman, on the top of the 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.520 bridgers there was some muel deer researchers flying radio meal 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.200 deer and they were spending and got to watch that 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.480 whole scenario unfold up on the divide here, and then 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.480 you got to witness from a helicopter lion bust to 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:31.880 move on a big horn but then lost the big horn. Yeah, 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.560 it was kind of our fault. You messed on up. 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.240 We were doing an annual sheep survey and I had 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.240 a graduate student down there. That's the chapter on ontary 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.160 ink and the work in the gates of the mountains there. 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.480 But we were my pilot was about to retire and 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.040 it was one of his last flights and we were 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.080 flying sheep and I had it just so happened, the 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.600 capture crew and the graduate student coming down the hill 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:56.680 for the morning. When you fly, you have to go 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:58.920 with the cracking on where it's less windy, it's safer 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:01.080 and the animals are out right. And so we're kind 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.320 of going up this mountain slowly looking at you know, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.600 different sheep and um. Out of the corner of my eye, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.120 I could see a couple of hound boxes on trucks 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.200 coming down along the baretooth gaming It's got long, muddy 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.040 road but just you know, you just kind of see it, 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.319 but you're back on the task at hand. We're looking 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.000 at sheep and I see this flash going up below me, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.800 and I thought, and I took a look. And this 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:24.760 is back before digital cameras. I had one of those 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.120 thirty five milimeter pandas at my feet. It was a 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:28.960 little more clunky, and I got that thing up and 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.720 I yelled lyon and my pilot, you know, he was 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.079 very good, and he was just on it in a second, 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:35.640 and it was it looked like a big male just 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.040 racing right up on a big horn ram. And of 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.240 course the cat. The ram went one way and we're 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:42.679 in the chopper, and the cat went to the other 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.679 and stopped and turned around and he literally looked at us, 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.640 almost in disgusted. But then then he you know, then 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:52.280 it was like, what the heck is that? You know, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.400 we're in a chopper and noisy. The houndsman then treated 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.600 the cat right. Well, it's kind of a funny story. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.280 So my my pilot was, you know, near retire. He 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.120 was mature and uh and and I told him, I said, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.160 you know, the capture crews here, get back down to 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.240 the headquarters where the old ranch buildings and the and 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.120 the guys were just pulling in with the dogs and 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.560 the tranquilizers and the gear, and so he took the 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.440 helicopter and we just bombed down and landed and uh 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:19.760 and I said, you know, I believe this is a 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:21.959 cat right up there on the knoll. And they're like huh. 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.680 And they get start yanking dogs and leashes out of 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.560 boxes and um, and they got their gear and the 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.880 grad students ready to go, and and off they go 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.400 on foot up the drainage, you know, following the helmon. 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.079 And we kept the dogs on leash or you just 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.120 don't turn them loose until you get a track or 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.720 they get a real good cent right kind of shortly 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.040 leash them and uh, my pilot's like, let's just sit 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.600 right here. He goes, We're I'm too old for this. 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.760 He goes, We're gonna fly up there. So we you know, 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:49.600 it was on the wildlife management area, so we waited, 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.440 and sure enough, the cat um treat immediately. The dogs, 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.440 you know, babe treat pretty quick. And it was kind 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.920 of a grunt to get up there. And away they went. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.640 And as soon as we could hear those dogs barking tree. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.920 That's the term, the how man use the barking treede Um, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.520 we hopped in that top or I've never done this before. 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.560 It almost felt guilty. And we flew up, landed on 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.760 the top, turned it off, and I walked down and 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:13.839 and uh, there's a cat in the tree. And we 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.640 started to process and it was kind of a crazy 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:20.320 day combination Big Horn Mountain lion day. Real quick, before 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:25.400 we get into the names, um layout, how you spent 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.000 your career, I mean, you spend your career immersed and 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.720 wild boy, but just give us a quick sketch of that. Okay, 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.199 so um, I guess what first, it's kind of it's 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.080 kind of cheesy. But when I as a kid, you 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.920 know when when color films and back in the early 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.960 seventies and and no joke, my parents took me to 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.559 an whole Disney movie called Charlie the Lonesome Cougar. I 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.840 never knew then. Clearly they end up spending a career 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.320 in and out of people and cats at that time. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.560 But to this day, it's still as cheesy as all 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.640 get out. But I still love it. Those are inspirations 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:57.480 that well, I mean, you know, I love like, that's 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.640 a cool species, that's a cool animal. And I was 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.840 born in the farm country of Iowa, and I always 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.560 looked to the west, and I knew bears and moose 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.520 and links were out there. And uh, but you know, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.319 we we're in Iowa. Pheasants and deer were not that 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.720 common when I was sure. Man, I was born in 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:14.800 sixty one, you know, and my dad was on the 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.600 football team for the Hawkeyes and Ioa City and and 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.640 but I get that for Fishing Game magazine as a kid, 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.760 you know, random that was the greatest magazine. Remember, written 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.920 a couple of stories and there years ago, and and 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.080 but I get that, and I couldn't wait for it. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.040 And we had had a little muskrat trap line right 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.600 got me out. But eventually, you know, farm country, you know, 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.800 had some difficulties. My parents were a muskrat trapper. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.719 I got a hat, little trooper hat. You know, some 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.800 run around a bunch of Victor number one single long springs, 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.240 no doubt, yes, and uh and and then you know, 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.839 Connor bears weren't too popular until later. And actually had 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.400 had a great time on a trap line. It freeze 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.960 out here in Montana when I was a field biologist 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.080 out a Great Falls um just thousands of muskrats there, 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:00.640 and we had a just and I was lucky to 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.840 get one one year and and although it was you know, 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.440 minus zero, but yeah, it's it's you know, it's just 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.080 another cool experience. But yeah. So I went from Iowa. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.800 I landed in San Diego with my mom and and 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.360 I kind of everything I did and went a little 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.240 too far south, but you know what, I loved it. 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.960 I mean as four blocks from the beach and Pacific Beach, 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.280 and I learned how to long board and and you know, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.160 kind of eventually a friend of mine give me a 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.720 mask and I stuck that mask on and looked underwater, 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.480 and wow, it was just the marine life inspired me. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.520 So that man, I got to get a biology degree. 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.200 It was marine biology, was mindergrad. A lot of events, 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.640 sea world and ocean world, a lot of different jobs 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:41.800 I had, um eventually I was at I finished my 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.240 undergrad at Florida. Stay started at San Diego State, finished 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.960 at Florida State. My dad went there from Iowa, right 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.160 and his wife Jedty, and so I got to Florida 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.280 and I got my marine biology degree and I ended 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.880 up working for another oceanarium called Ocean World. It was 0:13:55.920 --> 0:14:00.600 a very small nineteen sixties fifties looking really the kind 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.920 of places they got like tanks with fish and tourists 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.000 come look at them. Oh yeah, and and and I 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.600 enjoyed people, and and I got hired. They knew I 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.640 worked at Sea World, So I got hired to you know, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.160 do the dolphin show and a and a sea lion show. 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.000 And they never had to wrestle alligators. Didn't tell me 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.840 that when I got the job, but that was interesting. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:24.040 Um and and this was shan Oh yeah, I got friends. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:28.200 My nickname was Balona Jim and uh so, oh yeah. 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.240 It was pretty funny. And in fact, in the alligator 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.960 show they even had a had a little spiel that 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.080 they'd say Jim was, you know, was abandoned as a 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.520 child in the Everglades and raised by seminole. The terminal 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.760 trial had to wrestle alligators, have blonde hair, blue wide right. 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.240 It was kind of hockey, but nonetheless pay the bills. 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.840 And that was in the mid eighties and right before 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.720 Yellowstone Burn eighty eight. Um, I'll never forget. So I 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.080 came back to my apartment in Fort Lauderdale, there's a 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.440 bunch of bullet holes all over kind of the garage 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.000 and had crack. This is that my m vice cigarette 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:03.680 boat days and his apartments on Little Canal and some 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.320 some kind of crime went bad and without enough and 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.200 cable TV just came out, and I think it was 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.720 out of Atlanta, the crash course in American history. Yeah, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.000 so I a TV came on and I saw that 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.480 Nature I don't know what it was called Science Nature 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.480 a Discovery. It was the first one. And they had 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.400 the Craighead brothers working a bear in the park and 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.240 the bear comes off the drug prematurely and both brothers, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:27.920 you know, they were putting a radio called they were 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.000 experimenting with the first tranquilizers and radio callers. They jump 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.000 in this old station wagon and Yellowstone and that bear 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.680 just pile drives into it, charging it mad, and and 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.200 I just remember thinking, wow, oh man, that's just really cool. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.000 I want to go out west. I still had that 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.400 yearning to go out west. Right, and so I this 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:48.640 is pretty Google pre compute. Well not the mainframe computers 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.600 were around. We had punch cards. But so I got 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.120 to the library to the card catalog, right, and I 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.000 pulled out papers from schools around Yellowstone. Right away, I 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.800 was inspired, and I landed on Bozeman. And that's how 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.640 I found Huh who rode something on bears and big 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.000 Game and Elk and Harold picked in Huh. Okay, So 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.920 I went got home, called him and no, Joe, ok 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.000 I just said, Hey, this is Jim. I want to 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:11.920 go to graduate school. I want to work on you know, 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.440 you know, bears, elk, deer sheep something. And he goes, 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.840 where where are you calling from? And I said, well, Florida. 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.200 What do you do? Mr Williams a gator wrestler. I say, 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.160 I'm a dolphin trainers And I told him and there 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.280 was this long, pregnant pause and he goes, do you 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.400 know it's snows in Montana. I'm like, oh God. Anyway, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.640 he goes, you don't have a chance in hell unless 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.880 you'd show up and get relationships. I got a line 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.479 of students from here and all over the world. Bozeman's 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.880 kind of the mecca for wildlife work here. You know, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.200 we're very lucky with the colleges here for wildlife and fisheries. 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.440 So okay, I'd loaded everything into my jeep. Hung an 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.680 old shark jaw on my mirror and drove out west 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.880 and he eventually walked into his office and he fell 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.360 out of his chair. And anyways, still a dear friend today. 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.160 And he showed up at one of my book signings 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.080 in Seattle, which was kind of heartwarming too. But that's 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.120 how I got to Montana thirty years ago eight alright, 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:07.080 when Yellowstone was burning, well, I came. He actually had 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.399 me working on bighorn sheep, black bear moose, trying to 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.199 create a funded study to get a master's degree. Right, 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.320 it's got to be funded. You have have a stipend. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.199 And I had a lot of projects that were like 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.199 really good, but then they stopped. And then one day 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.520 I walked into his office. He called me in and 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.840 he was sent out and he throws this Morris Horknock 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:26.879 or he's kind of the patron saint of Pumas on 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.120 the planet, did all the original work, and another dear friend. 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.800 But he throws his monograph from Idaho, the first study 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.520 ever done on on Puma's mountain lions, if you will, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:37.960 on my lap. And I looked at that, and I'll 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.639 never forget. I looked at him. I said, oh yeah, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.080 and he goes well, you gotta pass the test. I 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.040 had to go up and meet the biologist in Augusta, 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.920 and you know, I'm Florida in California. I'm like, okay, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.240 this will be good, and I drove up. Then we 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.800 hit it off right away, and so yeah, then from 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:57.840 then on, whether it was working on cats directly, supporting students, 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.960 working on cats, working on hunting seasons for cats, you know, 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.640 working with South Americans and cats, and thirty years goes 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:11.200 buying a blank. All right, okay quick, So yeah, I'll 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.600 say a name for one, and then you say a 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.560 name for one, and then you say a name from one. 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:30.199 We'll see how if we can get around twice. Paint painter, catamount, panther, cougar, Puma, Panji, mountain, lion. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.920 I'm out. Yeah, he's tapping out what would be miss? 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:41.600 I mean think he wrote, um, you did catamount right? Yeah, 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.280 like in back in Boone's day, Daniel Boone's day, they 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.320 said painter, yeah, painters yea. And there's some South American 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.040 names too. That's what I'm drawing a blank. Uh Puma, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:19:00.320 panti oh cis quick? My my, my colleagues, and and 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.880 say the s and coutiney tribes and I'm mispronouncing that 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:07.320 and and but then it's the word for mountain line. 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.880 Why are there's so many names? I personally think that 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.080 as as humans, you know, when we you know, you know, 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.960 we you know, we evolved in and came out of 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.560 ray data of Africa, right and you had hunt your 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.520 hunter gatherers originally. And and I think that as humans 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:31.160 around the planet, we hold these both prey species and 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.479 predators or large carnivores in very high regard. And uh 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.080 and we as because we're humans and typically not the prey. 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.600 Now we associate with the predators. And I think when 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.919 you do that, whether it's native cultures or or or 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.159 around the world or even today, people kind of associate. 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.040 If you're a deer hunter, you know, you realize how 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.800 clumsy you you are versus own mount line and how 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.160 they are not you know. And I just think people 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.840 create folklore and stories and camp fires stories because we 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.359 can associate and relate to them a little bit. You know, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.840 as a deer hunter, when you're pursuing deer, you're kind 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.120 of doing what a what a mountain lions doing? Right? 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:13.080 And I imagine three time snow lepperds, tigers cats the same. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:17.720 These different cultures around the planet all have different um 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.240 folklore stories on how they relate to that fellow carnivore. 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.560 It's kind of surprising in the name thing. I don't 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:28.560 want to be it's death, but it's interesting me because 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.320 uh mule deer, right, not a hell of a lot 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.959 of ways, you know, most things there's not. But then 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:38.840 you have these kind of like examples like that this 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.119 thing that that carried so many titles with it, so 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:46.240 many names with it, you know, wolverines, right, besides indigenous languages, 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:50.159 but like in our popular vernacular, there's no option. But 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.520 you'll be sitting around talking to guys that like mountain 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:58.240 lions and people be calling them lines, cats, cougars the same. 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.240 People will use the same different words then you would 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.840 describe at the time of European contact. Let's just use 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.440 that like a baseline. We kind of touched on that 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.399 that there might have been a dark age for mountain 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.000 lions prior to the arrival of Man or contemporaneus with 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.040 the rival Man where they got knocked back and still 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.040 had some strongholds in South America. But like European contact, 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.359 coast to coast right coast to coast and lower forty 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.880 eight side to side, top to bottom. How was it 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:35.879 what enabled us to damage them so bad? Well, I 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.040 think two things. You gotta We had kind of a 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:43.800 um collectively um the settlers, um. You know, the European 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.440 settlers are referred to as white visitors and strangers. If um, 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:55.000 we had a kind of a colonial um oh method 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.639 to our madness. It was pretty much eliminate anything. There 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.359 was good animals and bad animals, and the good animals 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.359 provided food into bad animals will compete with us for 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.760 that food. And I think, um, not only mountain lions, 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:13.080 but all carnivores, wolves included with poisons and bounties. Um, 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.880 you know, we were pretty effective and and frankly we're 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:20.560 pretty effective with onulets of well contradiction there as we 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.080 eliminated a lot of good ones too. But you know what, 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.600 we limited the good ones on accident, and we eliminated 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.200 the bad ones like very intentionally. Oh yeah, and today 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.800 that's still pervasive today. I mean it's human nature in 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.080 my mind, if it's if a fellow hunter, whether it's 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.719 a person or an animal, competes with us for our 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:41.040 our groceries or what we like to do. You know, 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.600 it sets up conflict to some degree. And but we yeah, 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:48.639 we were collective collectively as a society, very effective using 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:52.800 poisons and bounties and most of those were eliminated in 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:56.679 about nineteen sixty. But there was a period, especially on 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.600 the wildlife restoration days. You gotta remember World War two. 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:01.280 Right after or it ended, the g I Bill was 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.480 created and that created a lot of graduate programs for 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.119 fish and wildlie biologists. Right, it was a big turning 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.840 point um once they got here. It was it was 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.880 restore big horns, it was restore mountain goats, restore elk 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.800 believe it or not, restore whitetail, deer and mildeer and antelope, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.440 which are pretty common. Now. That's that's interesting. I never 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.760 heard that that idea about that. So many guys coming 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.160 in and get an opportunity to go to college. Yeah, 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.679 created like helped create wildlife program some states, believe it 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.600 or not. Stephen they there was a directive to come 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:34.320 home and create more meat on the landscape, wild meat 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.359 for our boys when they got home from the war. 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:38.919 And so and then you have out a leopol creating 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.440 this initial game management programs and others, and you had 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:46.080 this kind of almost magical nexus. I don't know if 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:50.800 it happened today, of creating the academic program, but most important, 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.920 creating the funding mechanism of the Pittman Robertson Act where 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.360 it's a user pay system, right, and and the creating 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:02.480 the actual wildlife and fisheries management kind of programs in 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:06.320 the country and a funding mechanism together, then wildlife was 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:08.560 able to take off state by state? Do you know? 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:11.600 Do you understand how? You know? I've read about the wolfers, 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:16.480 who would who would poison wolves and how and I 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:18.920 don't know, you know, idot like fact check this that carefully, 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:22.600 but it just seems like to be a thing, you um, 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.280 it just seems to be like generally accepted that as 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:31.920 the as the market hunters eliminated bison, some of them 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:36.760 transitioned quite smoothly into being predator guys. Wolfers, and I 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:42.160 had read about how they would take a animal, take 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:46.800 an ungulate they're buffalo or whatever, and kill it, but 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:52.560 very quickly inject stryct nine into its circulatory system so 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:56.439 that while it's heart still pumping, it would lace the 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:59.880 entire body and then they would the wolfers would let 0:24:59.880 --> 0:25:01.720 that sit and then go out and look around and 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:04.920 collect up poison stuff. Is that your understanding about, because 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:09.240 everybody likes to talk about poisoning grizzlies, poisoning mountain lions, 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:13.280 but what does the like, what was the actual delivery mechanism. Well, 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.399 that's that's good and I have not heard that although 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:19.359 you know that makes sense, it's kind of makes sense. 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:21.879 But poison lace bates. And again, we got to think 0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:23.920 about right now, we think about cattle on the landscape, 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:26.760 and I'm talking the West primarily, but it was domestic 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:29.480 sheep back in the day, right back when most of 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:34.080 that and and domestic sheep can almost they're kind of fragile, 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.720 especially when it comes to even small carnivores around coyotes, 0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:42.520 you know, bobcats, I mean domestic sheep, uh, And they 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:47.119 all had herders. And protecting flocks of domestic sheep in 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:51.399 mountainous areas is extremely difficult, more so than cattle even, 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.840 And so poison was a common way to control predators. 0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:57.320 And again it was that whole concept of good animals 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:00.760 and bad animals, lacing baits, lacing poison math. But what 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:03.720 happened is it's indiscriminate killing. So not only do you 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.120 kill the bear, but you kill the fisher at the martin, 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:08.919 the wolverine, the eagle, you kill anything that comes around, 0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:11.480 depending upon the poison that was used at the time, 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.760 So it's some it's it is indiscriminate, and even birds 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:18.040 of prey and and so it was very effective. And 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:20.520 then you throw a bounty on top of that. Yeah, 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:23.480 explain how those systems were well, depending upon the state 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:28.280 and depending upon the government at the time. Um, trappers, 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:31.160 hunters were paid for pelts, you know, to turn them 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:35.120 in and and and frankly, that's probably created an economic 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:38.040 activity in that point in time in our country to 0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:43.439 you go out and learn how to kill cats, kill bears, coyotes. Um, 0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:45.760 I don't know. I assumes it probably was. I mean, look, 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:48.200 there were some pretty tough times and some pretty rural 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:51.480 remote places. I mean, Montana is still frankly remote now 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:54.480 think about it. You know, Montana, Wyna, and Idaho, you know, 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:56.960 a hundred fifty years ago, it probably was good money 0:26:57.000 --> 0:26:59.719 for them, or it was survival. Yeah, probably not a 0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:02.080 lot observed, but there were still bounty systems up through 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:05.520 the nineteen sixties, right, correct, Well, yeah, and and I 0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:08.920 think yes, and there was kind of a staggered rate 0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:12.359 of eliminating those And and again I'm going to go 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:15.080 back to the field of wildlife management was created, right 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:17.560 and World War two ended, the biologists got here, and 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:22.119 then this whole concept of not just pure game management, 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:24.800 but the whole notion of ecology and systems kind of 0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:27.120 came on board, and that some of the bad animals, 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:30.480 which are predators talking about cats want of Manny had 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:34.200 a role to play in the ecosystem and out on Leopold, 0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:37.040 you know, talks about it in Sand County Almanact, the 0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:40.760 the mountain and the green screen fire dying in the 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:42.639 woolf side. But it took him a long time to 0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:45.439 get there, right, And so that's the thing I think 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:47.280 a lot of people, well anybody's read his book knows, 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:51.040 but you know, he went out, like when he moved 0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:56.000 out west, he went out to kill predators. It was 0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:59.600 he that's his day was spent, has burned his time 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:02.560 up try to eliminate predators from landscape. And it has 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:04.720 some epiphanies around that. Oh yeah, well, once by I'll 0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:08.200 just started looking at the habitat and the landscape as 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:12.119 as a baseline versus the species that changed a lot. 0:28:12.200 --> 0:28:16.120 Then then that whole notion of systems um ecosystems came 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:21.680 about and landscape ecology and and and what role carnivores 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.200 play and that you feel that that thinking help usher 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:28.520 out the bounty face. Yeah, well that a little bit. 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:30.479 But if you want to go there, I'll tell you 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:33.160 my thoughts on what happened. And I think I'm right, 0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:37.960 but arga. But because it's it's let me stack a 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:39.560 question in there before you do that, okay, because I 0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:42.880 feel like it's gonna segue. Uh how bad did it get? 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:47.120 Like like how loaded line numbers get very low? They were? 0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:49.760 And um more. Dr Morris Hornocker, who I mentioned earlier, 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:51.520 is kind of the patron saint of poem as that's 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:53.440 what I call him in my book. But he's a 0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:56.240 dear friend of bird hunting fool and he's even still 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:59.720 hunting elk and you know, he's long retired, but he 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:03.840 had to work in Idaho, in the largest wilderness area 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:06.400 left in the United States to get a large enough 0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:10.400 sample to make it statistically valid to say anything scientifically 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:12.960 about cats. That was the first study in the sixties 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:15.720 and he couldn't find him anywhere. He couldn't find a 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:18.560 population large enough, or that was or he didn't lose 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:20.720 the sample every time he put some marks out. This 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:23.840 is the early radio colors, right, and your ear tags 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:26.760 they're all getting shot still back in the sixties. But 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:28.880 then he had to go into the frank Church or 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:33.200 something way back to find to find a reasonable population. Yes, big, 0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:36.480 absolutely so they were really knocked back. You've got landowner tolerance, 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:38.920 you've got bounties, you had poisons, and there was this, 0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:42.160 you know, generations of thought of these good animals and 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:45.440 bad animals, and it's hard eliminated from the Eastern US 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:50.960 except Florida, as I understand it. Correct. Yes, um, that's 0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:54.120 interesting too. Yes, there's some there's some pretty remote country 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.960 in Florida even today in central Florida, on those large 0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:00.440 swampy ranches, between the insects and the plants, they're pretty 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:02.440 harsh for humans. You can be pretty tough to get 0:30:02.480 --> 0:30:04.440 in there. And you can see why there is some 0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:11.640 impenetrable areas. But so so basically, like for any like 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:18.200 for any practical purpose, there any ecological for ecological viability, okay, 0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:24.640 never mind like like genetic extinction like ecological viability. Basically 0:30:24.640 --> 0:30:29.760 everything from the Rockies east excluding a small portion of 0:30:29.800 --> 0:30:32.520 Florida or Texas down in the very bottom, a little 0:30:32.520 --> 0:30:36.680 bit in the middle, but still in West Texas eliminated. Correct, 0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:40.000 that's a yeah, that's that's as I understand now. That 0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:42.760 doesn't mean that every odd year and mountain lands just 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.240 like well, it's dispersed a long ways. Yeah, take one 0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:46.880 shows up, but for all that's what that's what I 0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:48.880 want to talk about. Is another thing I'd like to 0:30:48.880 --> 0:30:53.960 get to eventually, if you have time, is the what 0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:58.920 used to be dismissed in the early two thousand's, even 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:05.800 dismisses every lion that showed up in a weird spot. Okay, Iowa, Wisconsin, 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:10.800 Michigan was always an escaped zoo animal, always an escape pet. 0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:12.680 But then I'd be like, man, it must be a 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:16.000 hell of a lot of people letting full grown, clawed, 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:21.320 seemingly very wild bellies, full of dear meat mouth lions loose. 0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:25.880 They show up in freak places. They just get up 0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:32.120 and go. So, so answer your question about what if 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.200 you know, I was going to make sure that you 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:37.720 hit this point. Yeah, because what you think, what I 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:39.600 think but but I wanted people to know how bad 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:42.000 it got in order to talk about what saved real bad. 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:47.680 And so what I think happened. You had this tradition 0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:51.080 of it's very difficult to run cats, and that's a 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:54.520 term where you turn a trailing hound loose, especially trained 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:57.040 to smell the scent of a cat, which we're not 0:31:57.160 --> 0:31:59.800 capable as humans of doing that, right, But these dogs 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:02.200 are their canets, right. They're like a bear. They see 0:32:02.240 --> 0:32:05.440 the world through their nose. And so they switched from 0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:10.080 bounties to some recreational chasing to train those and there 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:13.320 became a culture of hound men and hound women, but 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:19.360 hound men primarily. And as that culture and not occupation 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:23.880 but recreational activity UM evolved and became more popular in 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:26.600 each Western state. It's something to do in the winter, 0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:28.840 it's fun to go out. UM. You have all of 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:33.160 a sudden people enjoying a mounta lion on the landscape, 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:36.520 and the enjoying that relationship with the hound and the 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:40.040 cat in the woods, because these hounds and cats will 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:42.160 take you to places you've never been. And I think 0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:44.920 what happened that, well, I know what happened, and I 0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:47.560 know what happened in Montana is all of a sudden, 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:50.680 with the with the science coming on in the biologists 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:53.760 in the sixties and seventies were starting to study more things, right, 0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:55.920 But all of a sudden, you have a user group 0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:00.720 that is now not biologists. They're pretty earl in nature, 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:04.080 they're pretty tough. It's extremely difficult to do advocating for 0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:06.720 a mountain lion, and that had never happened before outside 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.440 of maybe someone just you know, thinking they're a cool animal. 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:11.360 So now you have this culture and the culture of 0:33:11.480 --> 0:33:15.200 running cats with trailing hounds in Montana, particularly where I 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:18.200 live in northwest Montana, goes back over a hundred years. 0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:20.600 We have a long winner and there are holman and 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:24.120 families and hound women that have dogs and they'll tree 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:26.560 and photograph cats all winter long for six months. I 0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:30.480 was hanging out with the houndsman yesterday morning. He's treated 0:33:30.520 --> 0:33:34.440 two hundred. Yeah, he's killed two in regrets that regrets 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:36.560 the second one really and that that's what wishes he 0:33:36.600 --> 0:33:40.680 hadn't have done it. They they stephen and they you 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:44.320 asked me the question. I think it was the helmand 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:47.800 they carried the They punched above their weight politically, you know, 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:51.320 with the regulators, whether it was state fish and wildlife commissions, 0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:55.680 household deep connection to the like, like their families had 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:57.640 a long track record on the lands. I go in 0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:00.520 and make a common as a biologist, you know that. Yeah, Okay, 0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:03.600 I'm a biologist. Yeah, I'm you know, it's looking at 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.680 science and papers and research. But if I go in 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:07.800 there and I'm a how Man and I known and 0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:10.719 I I've known your family for three generations, and you're 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:12.560 a legislator, and I'm a how Man and my family 0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:14.879 has been there, you know who they're gonna listen to more. Well, 0:34:14.960 --> 0:34:17.440 all of a sudden, you got these tough very in 0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:22.200 the woods all winter long to you everything everything. Their loggers, 0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:25.320 they're miners there there there, you name it, their ranchers 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:27.680 even in some cases in some states. But all of 0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:30.280 a sudden, you have a user group that really treads 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:33.960 theers the opportunity to have that dog cat relationship all 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:36.760 winter long. Well, that's a game changer in my mind. 0:34:37.080 --> 0:34:40.360 Then they, along with the biologists in about nineteen seventy 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:43.640 one together to work the state commissions in each state 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.600 to make them game animals. So you got rid of bounties. 0:34:46.600 --> 0:34:48.640 In the early sixties, for the most part, but that 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:53.040 as soon as cats became a legally classified game animal. 0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:55.520 And this is a big deal because once that happens 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:57.800 in a state, now you have a game warden to 0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:00.760 protects them with the law that any state can and adopts. 0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:04.279 All of a sudden, they're treated like a deer and 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:06.400 out of season. Take all of a sudden, it's illegal. 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:08.640 That is a game changer. And it was the howman 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:12.239 working with the Department biologists in these states that that 0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:15.480 was this wonderful relationship that that made that happen in 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.720 my mind and to this day and in my country. 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:19.920 You know, I write a little I have a whole 0:35:20.000 --> 0:35:22.799 chapter on season setting in there. It gets kind of wild, 0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:25.319 kind of western at times. But to this day, the 0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:29.000 hound men, the hound handlers, uh if you will, are 0:35:29.120 --> 0:35:33.360 the most stringent advocates for cats on the landscape. And 0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:36.120 they watch, they watch every move we make. If we 0:35:36.200 --> 0:35:39.000 think we're killing or prescribing too many females or too 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:41.759 many cats in an area, it's the hound handlers that 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:44.520 are front and center in Helen at the capitol or 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:47.920 at a meeting and beating on the table saying, you know, 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:49.880 listen to me. I'm in the woods all winner. This 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:52.640 is important to me. That's why I think we have cats. 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:56.040 You know, there there's a ceiling of natural density that 0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:59.840 they don't pretty much go above. But cats recovered because 0:35:59.840 --> 0:36:01.879 of its good science. It was done, you know, Morris 0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:04.640 Hornucker started a whole host of students and and we 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.840 had advocates in the Helman that could influence the local 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:10.919 legislators to not eliminate them. You probably get a lot 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:14.200 of people that have a hard time believing that or understanding. 0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.480 So in my book tour, I was in Boston, New York, 0:36:18.600 --> 0:36:24.239 and Chicago, California, Vancouver, BC. I love telling that story. 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:27.520 In fact, there's some dear friends that I would put 0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:30.840 them more in the mutualist their animal protection. They're not hunters, 0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:33.600 they'll never don't I won't say never, but they'll probably 0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:36.200 never ever hunt, you know, in a legal season, and 0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:38.839 they'd be more almost an animal rights kind of philosophy 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:40.759 towards a cat. They just want to know they're they're 0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:43.359 you know, kind of almost a spiritual value. But when 0:36:43.360 --> 0:36:46.399 I telling that story and a couple of the friends 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:49.560 have found out, you know, on their own, attending meetings 0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:53.879 and seeing it happen firsthand. They get it. And so 0:36:54.040 --> 0:36:57.440 it's this interesting conundrum of this user group that now 0:36:57.480 --> 0:36:59.040 and again we'll take the cat. They don't take a 0:36:59.040 --> 0:37:01.400 cat every year. I know. First people, the houndhandlers are 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:04.080 the first people people the animal rights people go after 0:37:04.120 --> 0:37:06.840 when they want to attack the state's on and fision rights. Correct, 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:09.279 So there's an easy cell. Yeah, shooting lines out of 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:12.200 a tree? Yes, who would support such a thing? So 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:15.160 as as biologists and and so you're pushing that button 0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:18.920 in me right now, we manage populations and habitat, not 0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:23.320 individuals as humans. It's so, I mean, it's natural. I 0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:24.799 I don't want to be if I was a white 0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:26.600 tail buck. I don't want to be the buck that's 0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:29.319 gonna get taken. We put human emotions on things, right, 0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:33.479 but science and data, you know, science, you know it 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:35.759 is a method of investigation. Right, do you look at 0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:39.640 the data that's produced. It's heartless. It's population management. You 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:42.239 can animals can die and the populations are fine and grow. 0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:44.520 But as soon as we put you know, then you 0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:46.160 get into fair chase and ethics and how do you 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:48.279 find that a lot of personal values on it. That's 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:51.000 when it gets wonky. And in the social realm that 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:54.920 tends to be those fights. What always frustrates me is 0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:58.960 when those social values try to bleed into the rigorous 0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:02.600 data on a population management side and and can trumpet. 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:06.279 And that's where you see sometimes in courts, and and 0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:07.960 that will never go away as long as there's people here, 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:10.359 of course that's gonna happen. There was a quote from 0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:12.680 your book that I wanted to wedge in at an 0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:14.920 appropriate time, but I missed my chance. But I had 0:38:14.960 --> 0:38:17.200 to do with it. When we were deliberately trying to 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.920 wipe them off the face of the Earth mountain lions, 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:23.759 you had a quote where you said, uh, if we 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:29.560 ranched worms, we declare war on robbins. And it kind 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:32.239 of goes that that was a good line, man, because 0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:36.279 it really does like demonstrate um, it's like a thing 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:40.000 about us, and it happens, and it happens in a broad, 0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:44.359 large scale way, like sort of a national agenda, right 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:48.799 or you have codified, state sanctioned efforts that you talked 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:51.319 about to eliminate them from the landscape. But it's also 0:38:51.480 --> 0:38:54.080 like really personal too. You go out and plant a 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:58.040 garden and you see a rabbit getting that garden. It'll 0:38:58.080 --> 0:39:01.040 turn it turns any it will turn anyone into a killer. Yeah, well, 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:02.880 look at it was like we like to you know, 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.240 we have a sense of the things that are ours 0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:09.759 that we're cultivating, and it's we take it in a 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:15.080 real bad way. One wildlife steps in and then complicates 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:18.600 the process. Yeah, it's it's human. Look at Bozeman, Missoula 0:39:18.680 --> 0:39:21.840 cow spell with deer in town and trying to grow flowers. 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:24.279 You know, of course, you know you invest in it. 0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:27.239 That's it's it's part of us as humans. Can you 0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:30.200 real quick talk about we kind of don't like how 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:35.440 bad things got and how things started to get better? Um, 0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:41.879 what happened with Florida with the like how could the inbreeding? Yeah, 0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:45.760 so it gets complicated. And I'm less familiar with Florida 0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:47.440 because I've spent my career out here, although I had 0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:49.280 to live there. And yeah, you spend you I should 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:51.440 point out the listeners you spent your career mostly here, 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:53.839 but also you spend a ton of time now in Patagonia. Yeah, 0:39:53.960 --> 0:39:56.480 well and in Florida. When I do, MI integrat at 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.719 Florida State and actually have some some dear friends. We 0:39:59.880 --> 0:40:03.160 get to the Mount lion biologist. World's pretty small. We 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:06.759 get together every three years at these workshops, and and uh, 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:09.719 Florida's kind of fascinating. You look at the footprint of 0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:14.440 mankind on that state. It's giant, right and and so 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:20.200 what's left, what's left is a pretty wild place. Since 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:22.840 the middle of Florida there's kind of a corridor. I've 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:26.359 seen there's some um conservation groups working on a connectivity 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:28.640 corridor up and down the middle and on the coast, 0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:30.799 the Gulf coast, and then that Everglades up. You know, 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:33.200 there's some St. John's River, there's some wild stuff there. 0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:36.360 But you get any population down to where it's effective 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.840 reading size, it's just too few females, too few males, 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:41.960 you know, inbreeding can be an issue. And with the 0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:45.319 modern tools we have with genetics, you can you can 0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:48.000 monitor that. And that's what happened there. They got into 0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:55.120 a biologists called bottleneck, a genetic bottlenecks. Somewhat. Yeah, that 0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:57.160 well I wanted I was gonna say fifty. But the 0:40:57.200 --> 0:41:01.200 good news is now, um My, my two buddies that 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:04.719 run the program down there, Um, they're actually you know, 0:41:05.280 --> 0:41:07.640 transportation is a big problem. They still get to get 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:10.640 hit on the road. But they're dealing with panther Florida 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:13.560 panther conflict. Do we use that word earlier? Yeah, I 0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.520 think we did. Yeah. Yeah, now that we're back east, 0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:19.080 I'm I'm referring to them as panthers. But my two friends, 0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:22.799 they're they're dealing with some agg conflicts. That's actually a 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:25.600 good science. It's more work for them, but they've had 0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:28.279 they've gotten up enough where they're back. Yeah, and it's 0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:31.200 still nowhere near recovered. Um. It depends on you define 0:41:31.239 --> 0:41:36.120 recovery and distribution and population. But they're starting to have 0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:39.560 conflicts and so that's a good sign. UM. But it 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:41.360 took a lot of work and a lot of intervention 0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:44.520 and a lot of TLC down there. But but think 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.240 about the future. Look at the traffic and the highways 0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:49.879 and the and the and the highway mortalities. They're always 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:52.239 going to have that issue. And they're doing a lot 0:41:52.280 --> 0:41:57.920 of work with with UM underpass overpass situations. But you 0:41:58.040 --> 0:41:59.880 talked about that when I went through that bottle, and 0:41:59.880 --> 0:42:04.319 they because they they developed some irregularities that you can 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:08.640 see with the naked eye, kinks, tails and cowards. Yeah. Yeah, 0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:12.560 so different species are gonna exhibit. There's phenotypic traits, and 0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:15.960 you know, genotypically they're gonna how that how the genetics 0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:20.320 are expressed, you know on yourself. It's gonna vary with species. 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:24.640 But yeah, they notice some um abnormalities that they attributed 0:42:24.719 --> 0:42:27.840 to the too few cats. And I remember in solving 0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:30.440 and I know this isn't your your area of expertise, 0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:34.520 but I remember trying to solve that problem, they brought 0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:40.840 in some lions from West Texas, and I remember that 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:45.480 raised this question of okay, here, here's this distinct population 0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:50.520 has been genetically isolated, the Florida panther um. What makes 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:53.320 the Florida panther the Florida panther when you truck some 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:56.319 some cougars from West Texas and caught them loose? There 0:42:57.040 --> 0:42:59.880 is it? Now? Is a Florida panther just a pan 0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:02.479 there that lives in Florida or is it something else? 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.360 I remember people were like, you know what, the debate 0:43:05.520 --> 0:43:08.680 at this point is silly, because if we don't do this, 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:11.080 you're not gonna have are gone. Yeah, they're gone. So 0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:14.160 you're gonna have a corrupted population. You're gonna have no population. 0:43:14.360 --> 0:43:19.160 So there are some brilliant cat geneticist O'Brien and Melanie 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:22.239 Culver and I talk about Melanie in the book, but uh, 0:43:22.840 --> 0:43:25.520 you know, we can the geneticist can look at the 0:43:25.600 --> 0:43:29.719 composition of these and she so a fun story. Again, 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:31.640 this is rolling it back. When I started grad school 0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:35.759 in in in nine um, there was I think thirtyso 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:39.720 subspecies of mountain lions, right, and these are the museum 0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:43.520 biologists that measure all the skulls and they're kind of 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:46.560 called splitters, right, And there's lumpers, right, there's lumpers and splitters, 0:43:46.800 --> 0:43:48.920 and you know when when it came to museum biologists 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:50.880 and my brother says, there's lumbers and splitters and they 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:55.000 know who they are. Yeah, well that's all fine and 0:43:55.160 --> 0:43:59.279 dandy until uh, you know, DNA technology came on board. Right. 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:05.200 So I remember Montana had Felis concolour missou lensis. In 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:10.799 Colorado had Felis concolor hippolestis. I believe there's no barrier between. No, Well, 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:13.120 that's where they split it until they put radios on them. 0:44:13.400 --> 0:44:17.880 And then when Montana Montana cat got shot in Colorado 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:21.960 and vice versa. Wow. Yeah, so then Melanie Culver Collard, 0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:25.880 you put a collared cat in Montana gets killed by Colorado, 0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:28.160 and yet they take from Colorado. So they're not even 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:31.080 they're not even moving in the same direction. Now. Now 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:35.000 it's just there. They distribute their their their DNA, and 0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:38.000 the landscape through dispersal, both males and females, males to 0:44:38.080 --> 0:44:40.840 a larger degree, and they can flat out boogie. And 0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:43.719 but when that happened, it kind of threw everything out 0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:46.480 the window with the skull traits and others, you know, 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:49.000 and they were very well intentioned, but with d NA, 0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:51.960 Melanie Culver and her team, you know, got down to 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:54.359 roughly six and that's still evolving today, by the way. 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:56.239 But you know, all of a sudden you have all 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:57.799 these subspecies and all of a sudden, okay, you got 0:44:57.880 --> 0:45:00.600 a patagony one one up north, and you know for 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:03.160 maybe less in the middle. That's going to evolve as 0:45:03.480 --> 0:45:08.000 as science changes, the genetic technology and tools change, but 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:10.719 it really shrinks it down a little bit. This is 0:45:10.840 --> 0:45:13.080 this is way beyond the scope of this conversation. And 0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:15.239 I wish my brother. My brother is an ecologist, and 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:18.200 I wish he was here to articulate his annoyance. But 0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:21.320 I'm gonna try to articulate his annoyance, which will be 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:27.000 to his annoyance dragon. He's like, we're so in love 0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:30.320 with d n A right now, and we're so in 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:34.920 love with genetics right now that we're we're taking this 0:45:35.360 --> 0:45:37.600 new thing. We used to have this like this Linnaean system. 0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:40.480 We used to name things on morphology or what it 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:43.120 looked like to us or how it interacted with this environment, 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:46.920 and that used to be suitable, and then we get 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:51.560 this new shiny toy and we're and we're throwing away 0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:56.200 all of these ideas that made sense at the time 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:59.239 in favor of this new shiny thing that we're like, 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.360 this will be this is more important than all of that. 0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:09.000 And the a way that it kind of like, I 0:46:09.080 --> 0:46:11.000 guess the way that were it winds up having some teeth. 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:15.840 Is this conversation around if you're from here in Alaska, 0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:20.279 they're trying to do a wood bison yes, reintroduction. There's 0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:22.960 a big debate about when they were there, where they went, 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:26.120 and but it's like no, because there's planes bis in 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:28.040 there that were brought in on a truck and they're 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:31.080 thriving in four places. But they want to establish a 0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:35.080 new population of this other kind that kind of belong there. 0:46:35.640 --> 0:46:39.879 But geneticists look at it and they're like, it's it's 0:46:39.880 --> 0:46:42.719 all the same damn thing, Like they've gotten rid of that. 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:47.200 There's bison, bison, bison, bison, bison, Athabaska bison, bison, pencyl 0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:52.959 venous whatever. And so you're using the splitting. You're using 0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:55.600 the splitting to sort of sell an idea to a 0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:57.960 population of people, where like, we need to do this 0:46:58.040 --> 0:46:59.520 because this is the right thing to do, because this 0:46:59.600 --> 0:47:01.200 is the right kind. We're gonna put the right kind 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:03.359 in the right place and we'll get the bad kind 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:06.200 out of the right place. I Meanwhile, these other people 0:47:06.200 --> 0:47:07.960 are whispering into other ear being like this is all 0:47:08.040 --> 0:47:12.279 mental masturbation. It's the same damn animal. Well, they can 0:47:12.320 --> 0:47:18.920 all breed. There's not enough genetic dissimilarity to even be 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:22.040 engaging this conversation. But then it's also at the same 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:25.120 time driving policy. It's kind of a mess. And I 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:27.839 know this is beyond the scope conversation, but it's interesting. Yeah, 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:30.920 and and no, it it actually relates to two cats 0:47:31.000 --> 0:47:33.520 and what we're talking about as well. But I think 0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:36.719 personally for me, and again, i'm kind of more you 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:38.759 think where I came up, you know, thirty years ago 0:47:38.880 --> 0:47:41.479 almost and and where we're at now with these kids 0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:43.880 coming out of graduate school that are just top not 0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:47.640 not geneticist. I think we need both. I think you 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:51.560 need the natural history, the relationships and the influence what 0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:55.520 what influenced this species and what drives its behaviors, And 0:47:55.600 --> 0:47:57.440 you also need to explain it, you know, look at 0:47:57.480 --> 0:47:59.120 the building blocks. You know, we we can look at 0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:03.040 DNA now, and we also have a traditional ecological knowledge, 0:48:03.080 --> 0:48:06.239 the tribal stories passed down from generation. I think we 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:08.520 need to put all those in the vat personally. But 0:48:08.719 --> 0:48:10.480 I always try and do and look at it all 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:13.080 as I try and make my own opinions, but to 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:16.279 rely solely on on DNA, although you can kind of 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:18.880 go to the bank with that science, but there is 0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:21.640 what does that mean in the environment, right, it's really 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:25.560 easy to separate, you know, Alleles, it's not easy, but 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:27.600 you can do it. But what's that mean in the environment? 0:48:27.719 --> 0:48:30.359 And and what should really what should be used more 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:34.440 to in policy or court decisions or as biologists you know, 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:39.160 so those questions are are kind of unanswered or you know, 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:41.800 I mean that they're going to play out into the 0:48:41.880 --> 0:48:45.160 future as as we can um as as those tools 0:48:45.200 --> 0:48:48.280 are are improved. But what's exciting is it does answer 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:51.640 some pretty paramount questions that we were making guesses at 0:48:52.160 --> 0:48:56.239 as as biologists years ago. But you're right, it's it's 0:48:56.280 --> 0:49:00.560 a balance. But you could go grab a line from 0:49:00.640 --> 0:49:05.040 the southern tip of Argentina and breed it with one 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:10.040 from northern BC. Correct, they throw like viable offspring. My 0:49:10.560 --> 0:49:17.359 that would be my guess. Maybe wrong, but they probably happen. Yeah, 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.319 but they're very similar. I mean phenotypically they look they're 0:49:21.320 --> 0:49:23.320 a little lighter in color down there, and they're a 0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:26.200 little larger, but they're a little more angular to me anyway. 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:29.480 But they're very they're they look cats cats cat kind 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:31.640 of even behaviorally, I want to I want to get 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:34.840 into behavior a little bit. How does the line kill something? 0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:37.439 They're a stock ambush predator, you know, you think about 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:39.959 a wolf or a coyote. Um. You know, they're gonna 0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:43.800 run their cursarial, they run their prey down, typical cursorial. 0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:51.520 They're gonna run. They're running cursorial they like like a courser. 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:53.640 I don't know. We have to lick it up. Now 0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:56.520 you're gonna ask me something. I don't know, maybe I 0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:58.439 miss use the term. But they run their prey down. 0:49:58.480 --> 0:50:01.720 Now cats, they're they're bill to to you know, sneak 0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:04.400 in close a short rush of speed to ambush the 0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:07.680 animal and take it down typically by you know, uh, 0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:11.560 lethal bite to the trade of the windpipe area. And 0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:13.960 I know they'll approach front because I've seen video of it, 0:50:14.360 --> 0:50:17.440 but they prefer to come from the side or back right. Well, 0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:20.000 I think they'll do whatever they need to do so 0:50:20.080 --> 0:50:22.799 they don't their their avenue approach doesn't really matter to them. 0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:24.960 I think cover is really key. You know, there are 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:27.920 many forms of stocking cover. You know, there's rocks and 0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:32.600 trees and grass, but also um light if it's dark, right, 0:50:33.040 --> 0:50:37.840 So the depending upon how when a prey species is vulnerable, 0:50:38.280 --> 0:50:41.000 you know, and in in different landscapes, what this habitat 0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:43.879 structure is. You know that they've evolved to figure out 0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:45.880 how to take down food. If they don't take them 0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:48.080 down their dead, you know, like mechanically, what are they 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.600 doing when they kill something? Like what are they how 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:52.640 do they how are they using their body to kill? 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.520 So if you grab a mountain lion, the paw the 0:50:55.600 --> 0:50:58.759 front pond you press those digit pads, those claws, they 0:50:58.800 --> 0:51:01.799 detactable cloths are gonna come right out there. They're just hooks, right, 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:04.160 and they're kind of like a mutch of little meat hooks, 0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:07.040 and so they'll make contact. And I've never witnessed it, 0:51:07.320 --> 0:51:09.920 and that's one thing I've always wanted to see. Very 0:51:10.000 --> 0:51:12.719 few people have. Frankly, you know now with cell phones 0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:16.279 you can see videos now and again. But um, there's 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:20.560 tracks in the snow or even the even the decoys 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:22.759 are I love the decoys when they have the the 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:25.320 archery decoys of a buck and a lion comes in 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:27.879 and smacks. I mean, it's pretty cool. But they're they're doing. 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:30.680 You can see the tracks in the snow, um, and 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:33.879 they typically make contact and either knock the animal over 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:36.560 or even in South America you can watch on video 0:51:36.600 --> 0:51:39.160 and those open habitats in the parks where they're visible, 0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:42.399 they're gonna wrap around to the track in essentially close 0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:45.000 the limpipe until they stopped kicking. But they eat small 0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:48.120 mammals too. They've eaten birds, but primarily a deer sized 0:51:48.120 --> 0:51:52.320 animal up here, camel the wild camels down there. My 0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:57.799 friend Floyd Um, who's a houndsman, in Arizona. He's got 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:02.319 quite a list of things when he's trailing lions, has 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:05.920 seen where they go to get their food where they 0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:08.000 can and you talk about that they like to eat porcupines. 0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:10.680 Oh so yeah, actually, how do they? How do they 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:13.719 do that? So it's porcupines are funny. You brought that up. 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:16.280 So you know, we look at you know, grizzly bears. 0:52:16.360 --> 0:52:18.560 People are concerned about bears, loons, a lot of you 0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:21.000 could go through a list of species, right, caribou. But 0:52:21.160 --> 0:52:23.560 one that's flying under the radar, that is flat out 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:27.759 disappeared west of the divide in Montana's porcupines. Yeah, there 0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:30.440 was campaigns by timber companies to limitate him, you know, 0:52:30.760 --> 0:52:34.799 for tree damage, and yeah, but you get them low enough. 0:52:34.840 --> 0:52:37.360 Cats also eat them too. And back when I started, 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:41.920 you know, in almost every cat you handled had porcupine 0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:45.600 quills in its mouth or and its nose. Rarely now 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:51.000 we see him a little bit. But something happened to porcupines, disease, predation, 0:52:51.640 --> 0:52:55.680 poison's habitat, or a combination. We don't know. That's research 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:58.040 that needs to be done. Frankly, west of the divide, 0:52:58.040 --> 0:53:00.160 you go east of the divide, in the coolies, you 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:03.279 can find them everywhere, but in the deep green um, 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:06.080 you know something's going to diminishing. There's no advocate, there's 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:10.160 no Rocky Mountain Porcupine Foundation, no, and and they're actually 0:53:10.239 --> 0:53:11.880 they kind of have the life history and they're more 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:13.759 similar probably to a bear. You know, they have a 0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:16.800 slow reproducing life history, so they're a little more vulnerable 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:19.400 that way. But your question about cats and porcupines, you 0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:21.239 know they can take a claw on on the on 0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:23.680 the belt on the underside and and open them up. 0:53:23.719 --> 0:53:28.080 But oh yeah, every almost every cat you handled a 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:31.879 while back had quills and its snows, smaller strange things. 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:36.840 I've seen trail camp photos of lions carrying sandhill cranes. Like, 0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:38.719 just rattle off a little bit of the things you've 0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:40.600 seen to me. The funniest things that were happened to 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:42.879 me is I was cleaning sketch. You'd float their their 0:53:42.920 --> 0:53:46.080 poop in the water and you separate different samples, right, 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:48.000 and you floated in some water and then all these 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.360 teeny little hookie claws. They were house cats, you know, 0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:53.080 they leat house cats. And and it turns out then 0:53:53.120 --> 0:53:55.439 I looked at the remember looking at the data way 0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:57.800 back as a student and it was right near some cabins, 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:00.279 so it was eating cats, you know. But they'll they'll 0:54:00.320 --> 0:54:03.279 take whatever they can get. If a dog barks, it's 0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:07.040 typically safe, typically not always, but um, they'll they'll eat 0:54:07.719 --> 0:54:11.359 um whatever the most abundant and vulnerable prey. But I've 0:54:11.400 --> 0:54:14.600 had them do marmots. I've had them do grouse, you know. 0:54:14.680 --> 0:54:18.160 Over the years. Um. Uh, they've taken mountain goats, They've 0:54:18.160 --> 0:54:21.879 taken big horn sheep. They've even taken moose, domestic horses, uh, 0:54:22.360 --> 0:54:25.880 big males with There's been damaged cattle at times, although 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:28.719 less often up here, it feels I found were one 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:33.799 killed turkey one time. It wouldn't surprise me. Um, how 0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:35.719 much do they need to eat? You talk about this 0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:38.320 a fair bit. Well, most of the research, most of 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:41.000 the literature right now is a is a is a 0:54:41.160 --> 0:54:45.920 deer sized animal a week typically and for a female 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:49.080 and if there's lactation demands, they have kittens. You know, 0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:53.880 they're trying to provide nutrition for um at least that um. 0:54:54.920 --> 0:54:56.719 And for a male, I've seen him go a couple 0:54:56.719 --> 0:54:59.239 of weeks. And in the literature it varies, and every 0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:02.480 now and again you see little surplus killing. But typically 0:55:02.560 --> 0:55:07.240 a deer sized animal a week, and you can stretch 0:55:07.280 --> 0:55:09.279 that the two weeks in some cases, but right in there, 0:55:09.840 --> 0:55:13.600 so each one is good for about a deer a week. Yeah, 0:55:13.760 --> 0:55:16.520 And and again they can be greater than a week 0:55:16.600 --> 0:55:18.600 as well. That could be two weeks, depends on the 0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:21.279 that nutritional plane of the cat as an a male 0:55:21.400 --> 0:55:23.920 or female as that kids are not. Yeah, but roughly 0:55:24.040 --> 0:55:26.919 if you had to pick a number, yes, yeah, you say, 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:31.480 how they there's a variability between animals, Oh, yeah, their preferences. 0:55:31.920 --> 0:55:35.000 Talk about that. And also can you touch on something 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:38.399 you explain the book about that they have that there's 0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:43.200 variability between animals, but then each individual animal has variability 0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:47.840 throughout the year. Yeah, so it's it's pretty pretty fascinating 0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:51.040 actually think of how um let's use the Sun River 0:55:51.160 --> 0:55:54.760 Wildlife Management Area out of Augusta as an example. In summer, 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:56.839 there's not a lot of out there. There's a few, 0:55:57.120 --> 0:55:58.560 but they're all back in the Chinese Wall in the 0:55:58.600 --> 0:56:01.600 middle of the Bob Martial Wilderness. Right, so the meat 0:56:01.680 --> 0:56:04.799 with feet, if you will, are dispersed and it can 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:08.000 actually be a tougher time. And then and again I 0:56:08.040 --> 0:56:10.239 didn't have a sample size on that project large enough 0:56:10.280 --> 0:56:12.839 to make any determinations, but they tended to take these 0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:17.319 other species like rabbits and grouse. And yeah, when things 0:56:17.400 --> 0:56:20.359 are spread out everywhere in the winter you have all 0:56:20.480 --> 0:56:22.800 two thousand head elk would be down on that wildlife 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:25.560 management area. Well, all of a sudden, it's like salmon 0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:29.640 and bears in Alaska, right, all the foods concentrated one area, 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:33.400 and cats aren't as social cats per se. Although we're 0:56:33.480 --> 0:56:37.279 learning more. There's researchers and wyoming UM with cameras that 0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:39.600 are learning some fascinating things about behavior, but for the 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:44.680 most part they avoid each other spatially and temporarily are 0:56:44.840 --> 0:56:47.239 temporarily but not spatially. They're sharing the same area but 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:50.000 at different times. They're still not like African cast just 0:56:50.400 --> 0:56:52.319 you know, all the casts just grouping up. But there 0:56:52.360 --> 0:56:56.480 are familial relationships that are being discovered now in some 0:56:56.640 --> 0:57:01.279 projects by some UM researchers as we as we sit here. 0:57:01.320 --> 0:57:04.799 But for the most part, the time of the year, 0:57:05.200 --> 0:57:08.600 the winter, their food is concentrated. In summer it's dispersed 0:57:08.960 --> 0:57:12.440 only where in white tail deer systems like western Montana, 0:57:12.680 --> 0:57:14.799 you have a little more abundance and a little more 0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:18.440 less concentration in many areas because white tails are a 0:57:18.440 --> 0:57:21.280 little different, you know, they're more continuous in their distribution 0:57:21.800 --> 0:57:25.520 even within their yards. It seems like from looking at 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:29.520 what you talk about and here, it seems that if 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:33.360 presented with them, they really like white tailed deer. Oh yeah, way, yeah, 0:57:33.760 --> 0:57:35.560 there's a lot of meat out there. Are those are 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:39.440 the perfect cougar fruit unit if you will. It's the 0:57:39.520 --> 0:57:43.880 perfect size, just the right size. And I think that's 0:57:43.920 --> 0:57:46.680 why in northwest Montana with white tail deer, you know, 0:57:47.080 --> 0:57:49.080 you know, cats were never eliminated. You know, there were 0:57:49.080 --> 0:57:52.440 still roll this areas in wild country with deer that 0:57:52.520 --> 0:57:55.480 weren't eliminated either. The deer that was a big deal. 0:57:55.520 --> 0:57:57.120 If you eliminate prey, you know, you're not gonna have 0:57:57.200 --> 0:57:59.840 the predators, right, and there was always deer and the 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:02.680 West Montana white tells in particular. How are you doing? 0:58:02.720 --> 0:58:05.480 You are all your needs being met over there? Yeah? 0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:12.040 You're comfortable? Yeah, definitely. Um. Interesting thing you you said 0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:13.920 in your book too, that you said a lot of 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:16.640 cats can have four or five kids. But but but 0:58:16.760 --> 0:58:19.680 they'll narrow it down and just raise two. Um, do 0:58:19.800 --> 0:58:23.120 they kill them. Now typically the average letter sizes too. 0:58:23.320 --> 0:58:25.360 It can it can be a little more, a little less, 0:58:25.400 --> 0:58:27.760 but you know you have that. It's interesting. So if 0:58:28.000 --> 0:58:30.480 for any mammal, you know you're gonna have lactation and 0:58:30.560 --> 0:58:33.440 there's gonna be you know, how much of the resource 0:58:33.520 --> 0:58:35.720 do you get that's going to determine how many in 0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:38.400 the letters survive? Plus a whole host of other variables. 0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:42.320 You got temperature of the winner and and other other competitors. 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:45.240 You know, mail comes around and you know who. There's 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:47.680 a lot of things that can happen wolves, um, now 0:58:47.800 --> 0:58:52.880 with cats, and and that's an interesting dance. Um. But 0:58:53.880 --> 0:58:57.320 at least typically it's two to two point five in 0:58:57.400 --> 0:59:00.400 the litter, in the literature and in every project I've 0:59:00.840 --> 0:59:04.160 known about her been involved with. So it's not like 0:59:04.240 --> 0:59:07.160 they're having ten kittens. So well, you do talk about 0:59:07.200 --> 0:59:10.760 some having four. It's been documented, yeah, but common most 0:59:10.920 --> 0:59:13.760 common you know as a couple, and even those cases 0:59:13.800 --> 0:59:16.040 with multiples, you see them wind up only bringing to 0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:19.040 to maturity. Well, no, like I showed a video last 0:59:19.160 --> 0:59:22.440 night and a presentation of this really gets what generates 0:59:22.480 --> 0:59:25.040 phone calls. But you had mom and she had four 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:28.800 adult size twelvemonth old kittens. They look like adults. You 0:59:28.840 --> 0:59:30.560 can tell they're a little different looking. But all of 0:59:30.560 --> 0:59:33.000 a sudden, you've got five lions walking on your security camera. 0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:37.440 They're high deaf. That generates phone call and and so 0:59:37.640 --> 0:59:40.320 she's pulled off. And talk about a good provider and 0:59:40.480 --> 0:59:43.640 the prey of availability in that area and the tolerance 0:59:43.840 --> 0:59:46.640 that's a family of five and and that's not normal, 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:50.959 but but that it happens, yeaheah, for it's a little 0:59:50.960 --> 0:59:53.280 bit at random two in terms of what are the 0:59:53.360 --> 0:59:56.520 resources available to feed those cats and how effective of 0:59:56.640 --> 0:59:59.280 a of a teacher is that mother for those kids? 0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:01.440 They have to take down life pray, you know, once 1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:06.480 they're that size, you know, and I know that there 1:00:06.560 --> 1:00:09.160 are a bunch of exceptions, what I'm gonna say, and 1:00:09.280 --> 1:00:13.200 you explore the exceptions, but there's kind of you talk 1:00:13.240 --> 1:00:16.479 about there's sort of a self limiting aspect to lion 1:00:16.640 --> 1:00:22.000 population demographics where they're not comfortable with a lot of overlap. 1:00:22.280 --> 1:00:24.240 And there they will you you and you go to 1:00:24.360 --> 1:00:29.720 great like pains to show the cases when they do. Yeah, 1:00:30.040 --> 1:00:32.080 like they're also and there's six of them together whatever, 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:36.080 But like generally speaking, they're very they have like a 1:00:36.200 --> 1:00:39.560 place they hang out, and particularly the males are not 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:44.280 real comfortable generally speaking with other males being in their zone. 1:00:44.760 --> 1:00:47.360 And it makes it that you can kind of use 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:52.320 that to extrapulate populations in general, and that it also 1:00:52.520 --> 1:00:55.240 sort of like sort of sets the ceiling on how 1:00:55.560 --> 1:00:59.240 sets a ceiling to how many lions can exist? Anyways? Exactly, boy, 1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:03.880 you're your biologists at art book. I read a good 1:01:03.880 --> 1:01:07.240 book called okay good well, so yeah, I hear. I've 1:01:07.280 --> 1:01:09.360 heard my whole career from deer in all counters. You know, again, 1:01:09.560 --> 1:01:12.040 we're competing with them for for fun and for food. 1:01:12.200 --> 1:01:16.280 Right that. You know there's cats everywhere? Okay, you know, 1:01:16.960 --> 1:01:19.480 you know, how did you come to that determination and 1:01:19.600 --> 1:01:22.880 where and in what areas? Because they animals leaf tracks. 1:01:22.960 --> 1:01:26.960 And it turns out in all of the telemetry studies 1:01:27.280 --> 1:01:30.800 virtually almost all of them from here, and the SAME's 1:01:30.800 --> 1:01:33.880 down in in Argentina and Chile, there's about two to 1:01:34.000 --> 1:01:37.640 four resident adults per hundred square kilometers. And now with 1:01:37.800 --> 1:01:41.000 DNA technology and camera zero, you can detect the fluid 1:01:41.080 --> 1:01:44.080 layer of transients moving around that don't stay and get 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:46.240 a radio collar, but they're still in the landscape. Right, 1:01:46.480 --> 1:01:48.720 you can get up to about six. But that's the ceiling, 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:52.240 used the perfect word. So they they're kind of to 1:01:52.360 --> 1:01:56.640 some degree behaviorally limited. So those fears about just having 1:01:56.720 --> 1:01:59.520 cat after Cat Africa, that that doesn't happen. It's never happened. 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:02.560 They'll commit fratricide. Yeah, and well the males kill each other. 1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:06.680 Kittens can be killed, but particularly with males, and they starve, 1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:09.200 you know, if they get pushed into marginal habitats that 1:02:09.240 --> 1:02:11.360 don't have prey, or they'll get hit by a car. 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:14.160 They're not tolerated and they get taken out. Um, you know, 1:02:14.200 --> 1:02:17.120 it's a tough world for a stock ambush prettor you 1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:19.600 think about what's really cool about Mount Alliance and I 1:02:19.760 --> 1:02:22.520 like this. They unlike a lot of the other big cats, 1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:24.960 they take down prey that are their sizes are bigger. 1:02:25.640 --> 1:02:28.000 You know, all right, that's pretty hard to do a 1:02:28.160 --> 1:02:30.440 day in and weekend and week out. And and you 1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:33.080 don't do that, you die, you know. And so but 1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:35.720 there you're right, Stephen, there is a ceiling. So in 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:38.680 most states then it boils down to okay, whether you're 1:02:38.680 --> 1:02:41.400 in a park or wilderness where the maximum is going 1:02:41.440 --> 1:02:45.120 to be in that higher range. Most state biologists are 1:02:45.120 --> 1:02:48.160 gonna go, Okay, where are we with our illegal hunting 1:02:48.480 --> 1:02:51.640 legally sanction hunting program? Are we close to a natural density? 1:02:51.800 --> 1:02:53.520 Are kind of the middle? Are we low? And that's 1:02:53.520 --> 1:02:55.120 where you go out and work with your deer hunters 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:57.120 in your helmet and it becomes a little more social. 1:02:57.240 --> 1:02:59.280 But you gather these people are in the woods right 1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:01.480 and and you get the data you can as a 1:03:01.520 --> 1:03:04.720 biologist combined with what people see, and then what is 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:08.080 your objective? Do you want them close to a natural dancy? Well, 1:03:08.600 --> 1:03:11.360 and this is a nice quick example, but in western Montana, 1:03:12.160 --> 1:03:15.240 where we have fewer cattle and ranches, you know, where 1:03:15.320 --> 1:03:17.640 there are helmn and and pretty remote areas you can 1:03:17.720 --> 1:03:21.680 manage closer to a natural density. You get into eastern 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:25.320 Montana by the Dakotas, it's all private land and and 1:03:25.800 --> 1:03:29.560 and agricultural depredation on cattle and sheep are a big deal. 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:31.800 You're kind of managing whether you like it or not. 1:03:32.320 --> 1:03:34.840 You don't have a choice to landowner tolerance. Right those 1:03:34.960 --> 1:03:37.920 ranches are huge, but that's the driving managing. You've got 1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:40.680 landowner tolerance out there. And here it's a different system 1:03:40.720 --> 1:03:43.280 because it's corporate timberland and forest. And in the middle 1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:45.760 look at the high woods, the little belts and some 1:03:45.840 --> 1:03:48.680 of these island ranges. It's a little bit in between. 1:03:48.960 --> 1:03:50.880 You get to kind of hit your beat. And so 1:03:51.400 --> 1:03:54.680 the science is easy here um. And and our timing 1:03:54.760 --> 1:03:57.479 of our seasons don't start until December. So the whole 1:03:57.840 --> 1:04:01.440 um concept of vulnerabile a younger cats and kittens. That 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:03.840 is in some states, you know, we were kind of 1:04:03.920 --> 1:04:07.120 ahead of the curve there um. You know, it depends 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:10.640 on what you want how as society, as as humans, 1:04:10.760 --> 1:04:13.080 what do we want on the landscape. And that's different 1:04:13.120 --> 1:04:15.640 if you're a rancher, you're a deer hunter, you're an 1:04:15.640 --> 1:04:18.440 animal advocate or you know, or a helmet you know, 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:22.360 per se, it's just becomes social almost. You don't annoys me, 1:04:23.000 --> 1:04:25.680 and it doesn't annoy me bad about you because you 1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:27.720 don't really do it that bad, but annoys me about 1:04:27.720 --> 1:04:30.600 what some people do lying, like like lying advocates. And 1:04:30.640 --> 1:04:32.760 I could I regard myself as a lion advocate because 1:04:33.480 --> 1:04:37.000 like generally for me earlier talking about like you know, 1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:41.600 subspecies and ways we think about management and repopulating animals, 1:04:42.240 --> 1:04:47.920 I generally look at my baseline is where was stuff 1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:52.080 at the time of European contact, and my generally would 1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:55.200 like to see it put back that way, where like 1:04:55.800 --> 1:04:59.240 the like an unachievable goal would be to recover wildlife 1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:05.040 to where the current distribution matches the historic distribution. This 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:07.400 is like if I had to put my personal goals 1:05:07.560 --> 1:05:09.000 in a sentence, that's kind of my goal, and I 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:12.080 realized it's unachievable, real complicated, all that, But it's just 1:05:12.200 --> 1:05:16.480 a distinct way of thinking about it. But people that 1:05:16.560 --> 1:05:19.919 are are the other kind of line advocate where they're 1:05:19.920 --> 1:05:22.280 in there it really interested. They're they're very protective of 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:24.320 individual lines. They don't want they're not they don't think 1:05:24.400 --> 1:05:26.880 population level. They just think like that, I don't want 1:05:26.880 --> 1:05:29.520 anything to happen to that one. Therefore people shouldn't hunt 1:05:29.600 --> 1:05:32.400 or whatever. They're always talking about lions as like the 1:05:32.520 --> 1:05:35.880 ultimate predators. You know, everybody uses that term. But then 1:05:35.880 --> 1:05:38.640 they're also they also want to simultaneously tell you that 1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:44.680 they have no impact on game animals. But then they 1:05:44.720 --> 1:05:47.240 also want to point out all because we got rid 1:05:47.280 --> 1:05:49.040 of the predators, now we have too many deer. And 1:05:49.120 --> 1:05:53.120 the same person will tell you all of these contradictory things. Yes, 1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:55.960 I've heard it. I've heard all those two all those 1:05:56.520 --> 1:05:58.960 and the bottom line is whether it's it's it's you 1:05:59.160 --> 1:06:01.760 or I, you know, chasing a white tail around or 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:03.720 a cat or a wolf for a bit, we all 1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:06.120 have an impact. We all leave a footprint, right, that's nonsense. 1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:09.200 We all leave a footprint. And the question is, you know, 1:06:09.280 --> 1:06:12.080 how does that affect what we like and want? And 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:14.760 that's what it boils down to. Cats impact prey, they 1:06:14.840 --> 1:06:16.600 have to they eat them. And there are some you 1:06:16.680 --> 1:06:20.040 know there there there are some isolated populations of bighorn 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:24.000 sheep or or caribou that are relict populations where you know, 1:06:24.360 --> 1:06:28.080 cats are a significant concerned because and wolves because you're 1:06:28.440 --> 1:06:30.920 you know, it's kind of it's kind of approximate ultimate thing. 1:06:31.320 --> 1:06:34.800 You know, Ultimately it was the hand of man in 1:06:34.880 --> 1:06:37.000 our footprint that kind of fragmented everything. But now that 1:06:37.400 --> 1:06:39.520 we want to save this little batch of caribou or 1:06:39.760 --> 1:06:42.840 bighorn sheep, you know, you gotta worry about the cats 1:06:42.920 --> 1:06:45.360 and the wolves that are there too, because every animal 1:06:45.440 --> 1:06:48.160 and a population of tan is a big deal. Right, 1:06:48.240 --> 1:06:52.920 But in the big picture, um, you just it's all relative. Uh, 1:06:53.080 --> 1:06:55.680 you know, deer herd or an elk herd, and and 1:06:55.800 --> 1:06:58.560 hunters and hunting cultures. You know, what do we want 1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:00.920 to tolerate out there in terms of a natural system. 1:07:00.960 --> 1:07:04.480 And I would argue to both of you that Montana 1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:08.960 can your baseline that you kind of go to Montana 1:07:09.440 --> 1:07:12.320 and and and and Montana fish wife parks way back 1:07:12.360 --> 1:07:15.160 in the authorities they're way at other time, is closer 1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:17.440 to that baseline you have than any other state than 1:07:17.440 --> 1:07:20.480 the forty eight distribution and everything and not by accident, 1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:25.320 habitat conservation, carnivore systems, and it was organic. And I 1:07:25.400 --> 1:07:28.760 think this is real important um for your listeners. I 1:07:28.880 --> 1:07:34.600 think that because because in Montana way back in the forties, 1:07:36.000 --> 1:07:39.400 access was such a big deal, and it was for 1:07:39.560 --> 1:07:42.640 people that had money and that didn't had the same 1:07:42.720 --> 1:07:46.280 opportunity to play outside. And today it's still the same. 1:07:46.400 --> 1:07:49.480 There's issues, but whether you're rich or poor, in Montana, 1:07:50.000 --> 1:07:54.760 you have opportunity to participate in some unbelievable Whether you're wildlife, 1:07:54.800 --> 1:07:57.920 you were a wildlife hunter, doesn't matter, whether you're an angler. 1:07:58.120 --> 1:08:01.080 We have stream access, you have access, So why not roll? 1:08:01.200 --> 1:08:05.680 Why why are you not rolling all the other Western states? 1:08:05.720 --> 1:08:08.400 In this all because you don't feel the I mean, 1:08:08.440 --> 1:08:11.760 you don't feel idahole to some degree. But I I 1:08:12.040 --> 1:08:14.360 would submit, and I have lots of friends in both states, 1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:17.040 so they would challenge me perhaps on this, but I 1:08:17.080 --> 1:08:20.519 would submit to you that in Montana, way back, we 1:08:20.600 --> 1:08:23.720 were the first state to require a graduate degree to 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:27.400 create when while when they when we transitioned from purely enforcement, 1:08:27.600 --> 1:08:30.519 that happened across the west and added biologists right and 1:08:30.680 --> 1:08:33.080 we added fish while fish biologists as well. You have 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:37.040 never graduate degree in Montana when unlike Jackson Hole, where 1:08:37.040 --> 1:08:40.680 you concentrate thousands of elk and diseases an issue up 1:08:40.720 --> 1:08:44.040 here now as well. But um in Montana for game damage, 1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:48.519 we didn't just feed elk. They bought wildlife management areas well. 1:08:48.600 --> 1:08:50.599 What that did? You know what that did not only 1:08:50.680 --> 1:08:54.080 to provide access in their special places, it anchored winter migrations. 1:08:54.120 --> 1:08:56.080 They weren't well, maybe they were thinking about it in 1:08:56.120 --> 1:08:58.479 the forties, but you know the sun River olccurred, the 1:08:58.640 --> 1:09:01.439 Judith River, uh, the bear Tooth all of a sudden, 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:05.000 by you know, alleviating putting elk on on buying a 1:09:05.080 --> 1:09:07.519 property and all the neighboring ranchers you have to be 1:09:07.600 --> 1:09:10.200 a partner with fences and weeds and grazing, but giving 1:09:10.240 --> 1:09:12.880 those elka place to go. Or dear you anchored a 1:09:12.960 --> 1:09:15.599 forty mile migration, which that's a big deal. Now everyone's 1:09:15.760 --> 1:09:19.400 looking at migrations and Montana started doing that in the forties. Um, 1:09:19.520 --> 1:09:23.720 block management, the public hunting concept and perfect, but you 1:09:23.760 --> 1:09:25.320 know we're the first one of the first to do 1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:28.400 that as well. Stream access. Show me another state that's 1:09:28.439 --> 1:09:32.880 got our stream access law through private land. If you 1:09:33.000 --> 1:09:36.360 added all together, UM, my colleagues at ft AP kind 1:09:36.360 --> 1:09:39.439 of look at as a Montana model. The North American model, 1:09:39.880 --> 1:09:43.160 you know, was coined not too long ago. I'd submit 1:09:43.240 --> 1:09:46.880 to you that in Montana long before you know, you know, 1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:50.800 we were we were born. For whatever reason, Montana's pretty 1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:53.400 progressive when it comes to fish and wildlife conservation, and 1:09:53.479 --> 1:09:56.200 that's why we enjoyed the diversity we have today. Now 1:09:56.400 --> 1:09:59.639 the whole world has discovered that in this outdoor recreation 1:09:59.720 --> 1:10:01.560 A to me we're gonna face challenges is more and 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:04.360 more people want to enjoy what we have here, they'll 1:10:04.400 --> 1:10:11.440 destroy At least we have Colorado to look at an example. Yeah, yes, absolutely, 1:10:12.960 --> 1:10:15.160 And if you look at Colorado's Rocky Mountain Front. You 1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:18.360 look at even Alberta's Rocky mount Front some degree they're 1:10:18.360 --> 1:10:21.320 pretty developed, whether it's energy or homes. Look at Montana's 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:24.080 Rocky mount in front. These ranchers have held these ranches 1:10:24.080 --> 1:10:27.000 and it's not easy and and these ranchers have made 1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:30.760 sacrifices to recover things like grizzly bears and tolerated out. 1:10:30.840 --> 1:10:34.920 So we have three quarters two thirds of Montana's private land, 1:10:34.960 --> 1:10:36.880 and there I found in my career they're very proud 1:10:36.920 --> 1:10:39.080 of the wildlife they have on it, you know. And 1:10:39.200 --> 1:10:42.680 that's different. In South America, it's all about cheap and 1:10:42.760 --> 1:10:46.040 so they tend to eliminate everything down there. Right, So Montana, 1:10:46.240 --> 1:10:48.360 we're live in a unique place. In my mind, we're 1:10:48.439 --> 1:10:53.640 very fortunate. So how far will how far? Will? Uh? 1:10:54.920 --> 1:10:57.240 We'll lie and travel? Okay, and I know some just 1:10:57.320 --> 1:10:59.760 probably hanging tight, right, but now you talk about some 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:03.200 really striking out and doing some weird trips. Yes, So 1:11:03.920 --> 1:11:07.960 like how much room does he need to survive? He? She? 1:11:09.080 --> 1:11:12.559 And then what will they do to find their spot? 1:11:13.120 --> 1:11:16.120 So for females kind of in a fifty two eighty 1:11:16.200 --> 1:11:18.840 different projects kind of zone in on different home range 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:21.679 sides and they move in a year, and and males 1:11:21.720 --> 1:11:23.680 have had them up to hundred fifty square miles. But 1:11:24.200 --> 1:11:27.920 you know it's very too but and it can be smaller. 1:11:28.000 --> 1:11:31.639 But but there's male home ranges are typically larger than females. 1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:35.439 And if you can picture, typically and most of the studies, 1:11:35.680 --> 1:11:38.679 the female home ranges are stacked in there with some overlap, 1:11:38.840 --> 1:11:41.599 right you have daughter, mother, granddaughter in different tolerance if 1:11:41.600 --> 1:11:44.439 they're hunted or not, all sorts of variables. But males 1:11:44.520 --> 1:11:47.680 have a larger polygon overlaid over the top, and they 1:11:47.760 --> 1:11:51.280 typically don't overlap as much. Typically. Now there are we're 1:11:51.360 --> 1:11:55.680 learning more with cameras on on group associations that are 1:11:55.760 --> 1:11:59.080 surprising people in some of the work in Wyoming right now. 1:11:59.200 --> 1:12:02.720 But males typically don't overlap. They're not that social. They're 1:12:02.720 --> 1:12:04.639 a little tallerant, but not that social. And they fight. 1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:08.280 So you have a layer of males on the landscape 1:12:08.320 --> 1:12:10.800 and a layer of female. So when a kitten is born, 1:12:10.840 --> 1:12:13.080 and if it's a male and you've got a resident 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:15.280 mail there and you leave, you're gonna have to leave 1:12:15.479 --> 1:12:19.360 because that territory, that that area is claimed, You're gonna 1:12:19.360 --> 1:12:21.040 strike out on your own. And most of the radio 1:12:21.120 --> 1:12:24.200 collar work we've done the department didn't work in the garnets. 1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:28.160 It was fascinating. Virtually every cat dispersed male and female 1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:32.360 if I remember correctly, males further. But I for instance, 1:12:32.400 --> 1:12:34.720 one time I marked a cat at the benchmark airstrip 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:38.960 that had a crooked tail like electrical circuit symbol. It 1:12:39.080 --> 1:12:41.840 was damaged, probably frost bitten somehow, and so it was 1:12:41.880 --> 1:12:43.840 real identifiable. I put a radio on it. Never found 1:12:43.920 --> 1:12:46.200 it again. And and after the project was done, and 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:48.640 I was working as a biologist in Great Falls, I 1:12:48.680 --> 1:12:51.120 got a call from the wildlife manager of Missoula and 1:12:51.280 --> 1:12:53.680 you got, you're missing a cat, you know, in one 1:12:53.720 --> 1:12:55.880 of his helmet had treated this cat, you know, near 1:12:55.960 --> 1:12:58.720 Missoula in the Blackfoot And that was a female. And 1:12:58.840 --> 1:13:01.200 but I mean she she went through the wilderness over 1:13:01.240 --> 1:13:04.240 the scapegoat. But the males there, how many miles did 1:13:04.240 --> 1:13:07.479 you travel? Oh, they can't go thirty miles. But typically 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:10.400 they don't go as far as the males. We've had 1:13:10.479 --> 1:13:12.599 males go from bottom of the front to the north 1:13:12.720 --> 1:13:15.080 end of the front, from the Baretooth game range across 1:13:15.120 --> 1:13:19.080 the little belts Um. They one of the first ear 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:23.240 mark before radio callers were available. We had howman marking 1:13:23.280 --> 1:13:26.559 and the eartagging cats up in the flathead and one 1:13:26.600 --> 1:13:29.320 would be marked in the flathead and would be taking leave. 1:13:29.400 --> 1:13:31.360 You get point of mark and point of death. That's 1:13:31.360 --> 1:13:33.200 all you get with an ear tag, right, and it 1:13:33.240 --> 1:13:35.439 would be shot in the Clark Fork by Thompson Falls, 1:13:35.760 --> 1:13:37.600 you know, and that was Those are males and so 1:13:37.760 --> 1:13:43.200 there's constantly hundred miles hundred mile John's perhaps, yes, what 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:46.000 do you think triggers that? And maybe you guys have 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:47.880 done science to show it, but I mean, I mean, 1:13:47.960 --> 1:13:51.000 we're just guessing that it's a young male and that 1:13:51.200 --> 1:13:55.360 somehow he knows that he can't survive because it's the 1:13:55.520 --> 1:13:58.400 territories taken. The kittens typically stay with their mother in 1:13:58.439 --> 1:14:02.040 that twelve to eighteen entranged typically and there's exceptions. So 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:03.720 they'll stay with them for a year, year to year 1:14:03.720 --> 1:14:05.160 and a half. Yeah, because they have to learned how 1:14:05.200 --> 1:14:06.880 to kill and take down life prey. Right. It's not 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:09.080 like a fawn where you know, you hop out and 1:14:09.120 --> 1:14:11.200 they're grazing right away. They got you know, it's a 1:14:11.320 --> 1:14:14.360 learning curve to be with mom and and if they're orphaned. 1:14:14.400 --> 1:14:15.960 At too young of an age, they're not gonna make 1:14:16.000 --> 1:14:17.680 it right. They don't know how to take deer down. 1:14:17.760 --> 1:14:21.000 But at about that twelve eighteen month age, sometimes longer, 1:14:21.400 --> 1:14:24.639 they take off and disperse and it's just you know why, 1:14:27.040 --> 1:14:29.280 that's what science knows. It's just that at that age, 1:14:30.360 --> 1:14:32.880 they just they go, they travel. The science that's in 1:14:32.960 --> 1:14:34.960 my brain. That's what I know. Yeah, they're probably there 1:14:35.040 --> 1:14:36.720 might be others to be able to answer that for 1:14:36.840 --> 1:14:39.880 you better, but that's to my knowledge. Yeah, that's that's 1:14:39.960 --> 1:14:42.720 the dispersal age. And they move and they crossed. They're 1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:48.160 crossing highways, going through towns, linear riparian highways. That's what 1:14:48.280 --> 1:14:50.760 I call like the sun River, the Titon, you know, 1:14:50.880 --> 1:14:53.880 the Mariahs or even the Yellowstone or the Missouri. That's 1:14:53.880 --> 1:14:55.840 how they get into the Midwest. And then you look 1:14:55.880 --> 1:14:57.840 at the Black Hill. So you've got these island ranges 1:14:57.880 --> 1:14:59.639 that have cats now and then you have the Black 1:14:59.720 --> 1:15:02.840 Hill that's pumping them out. That's a finite area. Every 1:15:02.920 --> 1:15:05.639 cat almost dispersed. That's kind of a jumping off point 1:15:05.760 --> 1:15:08.160 for some of these repairing areas. To get the Missouri 1:15:08.240 --> 1:15:11.000 in Iowa and some random numbers square east. Yeah, and 1:15:11.439 --> 1:15:16.760 and they they are only gonna exist if we tolerate them. 1:15:16.800 --> 1:15:19.800 There a lot more roads, not a lot of wild 1:15:19.840 --> 1:15:22.800 country like here a little bit, but the further east 1:15:22.840 --> 1:15:24.599 you go, they're doing it on the backs of white 1:15:24.600 --> 1:15:28.600 tail deer typically, But you know, as soon as we 1:15:28.760 --> 1:15:32.160 know they're there, they tend to be eliminated. But he 1:15:32.240 --> 1:15:34.200 talked about in the book about how that is a 1:15:34.360 --> 1:15:37.720 key to their success, is how they can hide, they 1:15:37.800 --> 1:15:41.880 can be there. And we always heard stories of like how, oh, yeah, 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:44.760 the game biologist knew that in some city park there's 1:15:44.800 --> 1:15:47.479 been a mountain lion for ten years, but nobody said anything. 1:15:47.680 --> 1:15:51.280 And I don't know if those stories. But a way 1:15:51.320 --> 1:15:58.040 to think about it is like you have, Okay, Idaho 1:15:58.120 --> 1:16:01.000 whelming Montana. You got eighteen hundred grizzlies. How many of 1:16:01.000 --> 1:16:05.400 those suns bitches? You see? Ye're not many? No, you 1:16:05.439 --> 1:16:09.479 see a boatload of them. You mean we saw seven 1:16:09.520 --> 1:16:13.960 and three days. But then you got you got exponentially, 1:16:14.040 --> 1:16:17.679 You've got exponentially more mountainins out there, and it takes 1:16:17.680 --> 1:16:20.160 you a lifetime to rack up seeing seven of them, right, 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:23.800 just saying they're secretive, Yes, they're the ghost of the forest. 1:16:23.880 --> 1:16:27.160 They always have been. Now there's an exception down in 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:30.320 Patagonia and those open parks you can watch them in 1:16:30.360 --> 1:16:34.360 the middle of the day. I'm not ready anyway that 1:16:34.400 --> 1:16:36.200 I just had to point that out, but for sure. 1:16:36.400 --> 1:16:38.639 So the other thing i'd say, when you're dispersal, if 1:16:38.680 --> 1:16:41.040 you you got to think from a species survival, how 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:44.280 do you distribute your your DNA across the landscape? Dispersal 1:16:44.400 --> 1:16:48.040 for many species is a common mechanism, and cats, wolves 1:16:48.080 --> 1:16:51.040 go even further. Heck, here we have wolf biologists. You know, 1:16:51.080 --> 1:16:53.280 they show up in Alberta. We have by bamp from 1:16:53.400 --> 1:16:57.280 that originated Montana vice versa, two fifty miles. It's crazy, 1:16:57.360 --> 1:17:00.120 but that moves the DNA around the landscape, right, But 1:17:00.200 --> 1:17:03.920 then it has Florida's shown they are susceptible to not 1:17:04.080 --> 1:17:07.400 having good genetic exchange because some things can hack it. 1:17:08.320 --> 1:17:10.120 Seek a deer, damn sure came. We're just talking about 1:17:10.120 --> 1:17:12.759 how six of old spawned a population of fifteen thousand. 1:17:12.920 --> 1:17:14.880 I have the wild Horse Island in Sheepe. I mean 1:17:15.000 --> 1:17:18.000 it's you know, it's a pretty small founder population there, 1:17:18.080 --> 1:17:19.720 but it's fun fun to go out and see him. 1:17:20.320 --> 1:17:22.680 But what what does that say about us. This is 1:17:22.720 --> 1:17:25.120 a question for you too. What does that say about 1:17:25.240 --> 1:17:28.880 us as humanity if the only reason lions are expanding 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:31.000 when all the other large cats are declining is because 1:17:31.040 --> 1:17:35.680 we don't know they're there. Yeah. Yeah, when people like 1:17:35.800 --> 1:17:39.760 you said, well, you know what I heard recently, Um, 1:17:39.880 --> 1:17:41.680 where I grew up. I grew up in a town 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:43.960 called Twin Lake, Michigan. Was it was a lot different 1:17:43.960 --> 1:17:45.200 when I grew up there than it is, not like 1:17:45.240 --> 1:17:48.000 a lot of places in the country. But man, you 1:17:48.120 --> 1:17:49.120 did when I was a kid, you had to go 1:17:49.120 --> 1:17:52.439 a long way to find a black bear. And now 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:55.320 a black bear just spend his whole summer around where 1:17:55.360 --> 1:17:59.040 I grew up. And I's talking to my mother about this, 1:17:59.520 --> 1:18:01.240 and I thought for sure the story was gonna be 1:18:01.320 --> 1:18:04.800 how right away the neighbor killed it, But everyone just 1:18:04.960 --> 1:18:07.920 loved it. They're real excited to have him run around, 1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:09.960 Like some people weren't, like scared and shooting at it 1:18:10.000 --> 1:18:12.040 all the time. She's like, no, it just became a thing. 1:18:12.120 --> 1:18:13.280 It was kind of cool if you were the one 1:18:13.320 --> 1:18:16.080 whose yard it was in. So it's like just a 1:18:16.240 --> 1:18:20.560 different change, Like there is some change in perception. You 1:18:20.640 --> 1:18:24.800 know that, and that you imagine at a time. I 1:18:24.920 --> 1:18:26.280 hate to say it, but I feel like even in 1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:28.080 my dad, I don't know. I don't want to say it, 1:18:28.280 --> 1:18:30.240 what would have happened in my time, but people would 1:18:30.240 --> 1:18:33.240 have been I think people as much as people freak 1:18:33.280 --> 1:18:36.720 out about lions and bears still and they have like 1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:40.000 irrational fears of them, I think there's also the the 1:18:40.120 --> 1:18:44.880 irrational fears of some individuals seems to go up. But 1:18:45.040 --> 1:18:48.120 then there's also this thing that's happening where people's like 1:18:48.360 --> 1:18:51.560 tolerance seems have been going up. These two things that 1:18:51.640 --> 1:18:54.639 there they they fight with one another, but they sort 1:18:54.680 --> 1:18:58.120 of happened in tandem. It scenes. Television and social media 1:18:58.479 --> 1:19:01.120 have played a huge role in bringing a lot of 1:19:01.200 --> 1:19:04.640 species into people's living rooms where they weren't before and 1:19:04.760 --> 1:19:06.840 you just had family culture. You know, in your book 1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:10.080 you talked about speaking of dispersal, you talked about putting 1:19:10.080 --> 1:19:12.599 a collar. I can't remember, as you were someone put 1:19:12.640 --> 1:19:15.360 a collar on a female and then right away she 1:19:15.479 --> 1:19:19.640 drowned in the river. Oh yeah, well that happens to 1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:23.800 They do swim um, but they have accidents. Yeah, oh yeah. 1:19:23.840 --> 1:19:25.559 There are a lot more in drowning where there's predation. 1:19:25.800 --> 1:19:30.519 Drowning following to a lesser degree, you've had um you know, 1:19:30.680 --> 1:19:35.519 starving life stuff in the wild. You lose collared animals 1:19:35.560 --> 1:19:38.519 to predation. Collared lions will get Yeah, I had had 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:41.920 a male kill another male actually um and a couple 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:44.479 of times. That's pretty common in some studies with um 1:19:44.760 --> 1:19:49.560 colored animals taking males primarily. You know. One of the 1:19:49.640 --> 1:19:52.000 funniest things about your that's that the right word. An 1:19:52.040 --> 1:19:54.280 interesting thing that came to my mind about your book 1:19:55.800 --> 1:20:01.560 was right now, for the future of mountain lions in 1:20:01.680 --> 1:20:05.679 North America, there's like some good news and bad news 1:20:07.160 --> 1:20:10.439 where they don't do well, like as we increase the 1:20:10.520 --> 1:20:14.200 number of wolves and increase the number of grizzlies, lions 1:20:14.200 --> 1:20:16.519 don't do well with those things. But then lions seem 1:20:16.560 --> 1:20:19.760 to do well with climate change. So they have like 1:20:19.840 --> 1:20:22.680 a pro and a con right now, right more habitats 1:20:22.760 --> 1:20:26.600 opening up to them. They're sort of like rooting for 1:20:26.920 --> 1:20:29.080 their like rooting for global warming because it opens up 1:20:29.120 --> 1:20:33.960 more habitat for him. But increased like presence as we 1:20:34.080 --> 1:20:36.960 grow the presence of wolves and grizzlies is tough. You 1:20:37.040 --> 1:20:39.560 can take on either of those ideas and whatever or 1:20:39.600 --> 1:20:41.960 do you want, well, I think, first off, climate change. 1:20:42.280 --> 1:20:45.880 So it's a good and perhaps perhaps good and and 1:20:46.080 --> 1:20:48.320 definitely a bad news story depending on how you look 1:20:48.320 --> 1:20:50.880 at it. But some animals are winners, and carp are 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:56.479 gonna do well typically here locally. The exotic species, you know, 1:20:56.640 --> 1:20:59.080 just by nature of their exotic and not native tend 1:20:59.160 --> 1:21:02.479 to be are adaptable because I mean they persisted here 1:21:02.520 --> 1:21:05.240 when they're not they didn't involve their right. But for 1:21:05.360 --> 1:21:08.000 climate change, it's a it's a big deal if their prey, 1:21:08.360 --> 1:21:10.200 you know, lions are driven by their prey. You know, 1:21:10.400 --> 1:21:12.920 if there are climate change impacts on mile deer and 1:21:12.960 --> 1:21:15.400 white tailed deer and elk, well then that's bad. But 1:21:16.000 --> 1:21:18.840 in terms of distribution, yeah, it warms up up north 1:21:18.960 --> 1:21:22.200 and temperature and and deer and elk can punch into 1:21:22.240 --> 1:21:24.679 the boreal fourth which is kind of a caribou wolf 1:21:25.200 --> 1:21:29.400 a moose system up there. After a certain point, the 1:21:29.439 --> 1:21:32.720 white tail deer elk system upcome the cats can come 1:21:32.800 --> 1:21:36.360 up on the back. So that's their frontier south. They've 1:21:36.360 --> 1:21:39.600 already got south taken care of. Their frontier is to 1:21:39.720 --> 1:21:45.120 the north correct and to the east, yeah, especially a 1:21:45.160 --> 1:21:47.479 lot of room. And then as there was the other 1:21:47.560 --> 1:21:50.200 question that was the climate change, talking about how they 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:54.800 don't do well with wolves and grizzlies or it hurts them. Um. Yeah, 1:21:54.920 --> 1:21:57.240 that just came up in a bunch of meetings where 1:21:57.280 --> 1:21:59.479 we have a new Mountlon management plan out. It's really good, 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:01.120 by the way, talk about that later if you want. 1:22:01.360 --> 1:22:05.799 But behaviorally, let's use the North Fork of the Flathead 1:22:06.000 --> 1:22:08.200 Tony Ruth I talked about her in the book. Um, 1:22:08.240 --> 1:22:12.560 it's incredible biologists, credible field biologist. The North Fork is 1:22:12.640 --> 1:22:15.080 off the charts, North Fork. It's a western side of 1:22:15.120 --> 1:22:18.040 Glacier Park. It's off the charts, one of the wildest 1:22:18.080 --> 1:22:21.040 places in the lower forty eight. It has a natural 1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:24.080 density of grizzly bears, it has a natural density of 1:22:24.160 --> 1:22:27.680 black bears, as a natural density of wolves, and it 1:22:27.800 --> 1:22:31.360 has a natural density of mountain lions. Right, so after 1:22:31.520 --> 1:22:34.040 you read Jim's chapter about it, you will want to 1:22:34.160 --> 1:22:35.920 go there and check it out. When you want to 1:22:35.920 --> 1:22:38.439 get a hucklelar bear clot that in Polbers. I did 1:22:38.560 --> 1:22:41.160 see that, and that's I still to this day when 1:22:41.200 --> 1:22:42.760 I have a biologist wants to go up there, I'm 1:22:42.800 --> 1:22:45.760 thinking below. If that's open. We used to hunt, We 1:22:45.840 --> 1:22:49.320 used to chase black bears upon that neck of the 1:22:49.360 --> 1:22:52.040 woods there and always be swinging into Polberg on our 1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:55.000 way back home, the best bakery around I mean hands. 1:22:55.160 --> 1:22:57.400 But anyway, be that as it may. Yeah, so you 1:22:57.520 --> 1:22:59.559 have what I call it. I referred to it as 1:22:59.560 --> 1:23:02.840 a predator party. But it's quite fascinating in terms of 1:23:03.080 --> 1:23:05.920 relationships that we're still going to learn more about. But 1:23:06.680 --> 1:23:09.439 take for instance, one of the biologists, I think she 1:23:09.840 --> 1:23:14.160 was a graduate student. Um, what was able to observe 1:23:14.600 --> 1:23:18.479 a grizzly bear that didn't DAN? Actually perhaps a couple 1:23:18.960 --> 1:23:22.000 because they were usurping mountain lion and wolf kills on 1:23:22.080 --> 1:23:24.439 the landscape. You know, it's a cost benefit analysis do 1:23:24.520 --> 1:23:26.320 you go into DAN? Is it worth it or is 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:27.600 it not worth it? You know, as long as you 1:23:27.640 --> 1:23:29.760 can put fuel in the tank and you're in the black, 1:23:29.880 --> 1:23:32.240 you know you don't have to DAN. But bears typically 1:23:32.320 --> 1:23:35.120 evolved in the most of meat vegetation primarily. You know, 1:23:35.160 --> 1:23:36.840 when that disappears, they go in the hole right for 1:23:36.920 --> 1:23:39.599 six months and live off their fat. Right. Well, all 1:23:39.600 --> 1:23:42.600 of a sudden you have all these carnivores that are 1:23:42.680 --> 1:23:45.320 recovered in the North Fork and there's meat out there 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:47.360 where they had a bear that didn't Dan and and 1:23:48.120 --> 1:23:51.080 Diane Boyd was is my wolf is our wolfile? Just 1:23:51.120 --> 1:23:53.320 still today? And Tony Ruth was working on the cats, 1:23:53.360 --> 1:23:57.080 and I love that chapter because you can you imagine, 1:23:57.120 --> 1:23:59.560 as a mountain lion, you take down a deer. You 1:23:59.680 --> 1:24:01.720 gotta It's like, and I used the phrase, you're in 1:24:01.760 --> 1:24:05.080 a grocery store shopping looking for criminals over your shoulder. 1:24:05.320 --> 1:24:07.400 You take a deer down, and you've got to look 1:24:07.479 --> 1:24:09.680 over your head because wolves will kill a lion, a 1:24:09.760 --> 1:24:12.040 pack of wolves, and so they got meat down, and 1:24:12.080 --> 1:24:13.760 then you throw on grizzly bear on top of that. 1:24:14.200 --> 1:24:16.599 Then the poor cat's got to go make another killer starve. 1:24:17.000 --> 1:24:20.240 And indeed she had photos up there she shared with 1:24:20.439 --> 1:24:22.479 me and and I've seen it, but I have not 1:24:22.520 --> 1:24:24.760 seen the grizzlies out in winter. But you can have 1:24:24.840 --> 1:24:26.519 a wolf track and a lion track and a grizzly 1:24:26.520 --> 1:24:28.760 beery track in the snow in the same slide back 1:24:28.800 --> 1:24:31.280 in the Quota Chrome sixty four days, you know. And 1:24:31.600 --> 1:24:34.280 but that's crazy. I mean, imagine cross country skiing and 1:24:34.360 --> 1:24:36.720 middle of winter and there's a big mail grizzly you're 1:24:36.720 --> 1:24:40.360 not thinking about that, right, but you have wolves coursing 1:24:40.439 --> 1:24:42.920 the landscape looking for their food. They can use syrup 1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:45.599 a lion off their kill, and then you throw bears 1:24:45.640 --> 1:24:47.600 in the mix, and in summer they're all out. And 1:24:47.680 --> 1:24:49.800 then that relationship plays out in a different way, you know, 1:24:49.880 --> 1:24:53.080 because you've got kittens and cubs and vegetation. And but 1:24:53.240 --> 1:24:58.040 it's those those relationships. It's a are are fascinating, it's 1:24:58.040 --> 1:25:00.920 a there's no wilder place. Yeah. And then that and 1:25:02.320 --> 1:25:03.600 I think if you put that to a lot of 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:07.600 hunters they would look and say, oh, so now the 1:25:07.760 --> 1:25:11.080 lions are killing even more dear no, yes, yeah, and 1:25:11.320 --> 1:25:14.679 in fact, which is obviously true, because they're losing their 1:25:14.880 --> 1:25:16.360 they kill it and they're losing. They kill no one, 1:25:16.400 --> 1:25:18.040 they lose it. They kill no one. Yeah. And and 1:25:18.160 --> 1:25:20.040 so you got up in the Northwark. What's interesting is 1:25:20.040 --> 1:25:21.840 half it's in the park, so that's not an issue, 1:25:22.160 --> 1:25:24.600 you know, And they get millions of dollars come to 1:25:25.120 --> 1:25:26.719 you know, to the park for people to watch wilife. 1:25:26.800 --> 1:25:28.439 That's a different economy. And you have the economy of 1:25:28.640 --> 1:25:31.800 hunting that frankly pays pays. If you hunt, you pay 1:25:31.880 --> 1:25:34.000 my salary. In Montana, I work for a state agency, 1:25:34.120 --> 1:25:37.800 right and not taxes, hunting licenses. So when I have 1:25:37.920 --> 1:25:40.240 hunters come up and say, boy, there's just too much 1:25:40.360 --> 1:25:42.800 being taken and in some areas, yeah, they have a point, 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:45.360 and what can you do about it legally? And what 1:25:45.520 --> 1:25:48.200 can you do about it? Really? And because there's other 1:25:48.360 --> 1:25:51.439 variables too, you know, with hunting, you've got weather, you've 1:25:51.439 --> 1:25:55.360 got winter severity, you have forage conditions, summer drought. It's 1:25:55.400 --> 1:25:57.800 just this whole host of variables. But where they are 1:25:57.960 --> 1:26:01.519 right is yes, you know, if you have animals that 1:26:01.600 --> 1:26:03.760 are taking deer and elk that we want to take. 1:26:03.840 --> 1:26:07.160 Yet you know that's competition now is at a population driver? 1:26:07.640 --> 1:26:10.160 What is the level of impact? That's where the that's 1:26:10.160 --> 1:26:13.040 where the debate usually starts. You know, speaking of the 1:26:13.200 --> 1:26:15.320 you mentioned the park. You talk about Glacier as the park. 1:26:15.640 --> 1:26:21.080 You had an interesting statistic around Glacier that only one 1:26:21.439 --> 1:26:26.200 in forty two thousand visitors to Glacier National Park will 1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:29.439 have a lion encounter. Yeah, so that's seeing one one, 1:26:30.800 --> 1:26:33.040 which is amazing actually, And and we'll talk about some 1:26:33.120 --> 1:26:36.400 secretive critters man. Yeah, And the rangers have this lion 1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:39.400 information system they track and we looked at almost fifteen 1:26:39.520 --> 1:26:41.080 years of data. They're just kind of because you hear 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:43.760 the rumors and they had done that another park, so 1:26:43.880 --> 1:26:46.880 we are curious and and we we looked at him 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:48.479 and and the number one thing they do is just 1:26:48.560 --> 1:26:51.839 see it. The incidents and and and conflicts and attacks. 1:26:52.160 --> 1:26:55.280 It's it's off the charts slow point, oh one chance. 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:59.360 But yeah, very few people even see them. Bears are 1:26:59.400 --> 1:27:02.960 a lot more. Oh yeah, man, they just care a 1:27:03.000 --> 1:27:04.920 lot less about your seeing them. It seeing you don't 1:27:04.920 --> 1:27:09.519 see them, but they see you. I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure. Um. 1:27:12.280 --> 1:27:14.519 You explained your book and we you don't need to 1:27:14.560 --> 1:27:16.920 explain how it came to happen, but you explain your 1:27:16.920 --> 1:27:23.080 book that through uh, through your career and in different 1:27:23.680 --> 1:27:26.559 projects and programs you were involved in, you had an 1:27:26.600 --> 1:27:32.439 opportunity to do some exchange work where you were going 1:27:32.520 --> 1:27:36.240 down to look at this animal that you know very well, pumas. 1:27:36.520 --> 1:27:39.479 You're going down to look at pumas in Patagonia and 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:44.600 talk about lessons that we've learned around management and likewise, 1:27:45.320 --> 1:27:50.320 biologists from Chile and Argentina we're coming up to to 1:27:50.479 --> 1:27:53.160 work up here. Uh. And you talk about a lot 1:27:53.200 --> 1:27:58.280 of the differences down there, different challenges they face keep 1:27:58.600 --> 1:28:00.560 sketch that out a little bit because it's because no 1:28:00.640 --> 1:28:04.760 student would read your book. And then I read this 1:28:04.960 --> 1:28:12.600 article about the kind of mind boggling amount of predation 1:28:12.800 --> 1:28:16.920 on domestic sheep that happens in Chile and Argentina. And 1:28:17.080 --> 1:28:20.400 we're really fortunate in the United States to have that 1:28:21.000 --> 1:28:24.519 public land component that is for service BLM and school trust. 1:28:25.280 --> 1:28:27.160 We have national parks and we have private but we 1:28:27.240 --> 1:28:30.439 have that middle area of public land, and that's where 1:28:30.439 --> 1:28:32.479 a lot of us recreating hunt on in addition to 1:28:32.560 --> 1:28:36.439 private land. You go to South America, particularly Patagonia, it's 1:28:36.479 --> 1:28:39.880 either private or it's a park, right, so there's no 1:28:39.920 --> 1:28:41.960 in between. They don't have that culture of public hunting. 1:28:42.200 --> 1:28:44.400 They don't have that model of hunters paying for wildlife 1:28:44.479 --> 1:28:48.639 recovery that happened here conservation, and and that's the envy 1:28:48.720 --> 1:28:51.960 our system, Frankly's envy. You know, this North American model 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:54.000 in Canada and the United States, it's the envy of 1:28:54.040 --> 1:28:56.400 many other countries around the world because it's it's a 1:28:56.439 --> 1:28:58.360 stable funding model. They don't have that down there. So 1:28:58.760 --> 1:29:01.519 parks are a big deal, and you go off the park, 1:29:01.960 --> 1:29:05.280 you're on giant ranches and most of them are domestic sheep. Right, 1:29:05.280 --> 1:29:08.519 it's like New Zealand big sheep ranches. There are cat 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:11.599 populations down there that live on almost entirely on non 1:29:11.720 --> 1:29:14.479 native prey. That's that's That's why I couldn't believe is 1:29:14.560 --> 1:29:17.920 that it wasn't like here we view when a lion 1:29:18.080 --> 1:29:21.679 or some wolves. I got a question. I'm gonna interrupting foxes, 1:29:21.720 --> 1:29:23.680 so I want to ask, I forgot about have you 1:29:23.960 --> 1:29:27.839 do you encounter often where a lion will begin feeding 1:29:27.920 --> 1:29:30.280 on an animal before the animals dead or do they 1:29:30.320 --> 1:29:32.960 like them to be stone dead for the etam You know, 1:29:33.000 --> 1:29:35.880 I've never seen that act. And my assumption is and 1:29:36.760 --> 1:29:39.960 is that theyre that they you know, close that windpipe 1:29:40.000 --> 1:29:42.000 until they stopped kicking and they start eating. I mean, 1:29:42.040 --> 1:29:44.439 you never know. And then how do they enter a car? 1:29:44.479 --> 1:29:46.439 Because when it's dead, you know, it's interesting. So I 1:29:46.479 --> 1:29:49.800 always look at lions are pluckers. So if you know, 1:29:50.000 --> 1:29:52.000 we always with you have lots of carniverse. People want 1:29:52.000 --> 1:29:54.439 to know it's like forensic work, right, and most of 1:29:54.479 --> 1:29:56.720 our biologists go out there. Well, lions tend to just 1:29:56.840 --> 1:29:59.320 like a housecat. They kind of they grab some hair 1:29:59.360 --> 1:30:01.240 and spit had some hair in space. You'll see a 1:30:01.280 --> 1:30:04.439 big hair pile around where a lions on the bottom. 1:30:04.520 --> 1:30:06.360 So they start right in the caveat the heart the 1:30:06.439 --> 1:30:08.599 lung some of those little tasty things they'll get first. 1:30:08.760 --> 1:30:11.960 Sometimes they'll open up a hunch, but um, they'll open 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:16.640 a chest cavity up right away. Um, and bears can 1:30:16.800 --> 1:30:19.439 peel hide back right and they screw around with a 1:30:19.479 --> 1:30:21.479 little more. Cats are gonna pluck around and then when 1:30:21.479 --> 1:30:23.880 they're done, they're gonna cover it up typically and and 1:30:23.920 --> 1:30:29.040 they'll use anything snow vegetation, um, and patagonia rocks. If 1:30:29.080 --> 1:30:31.760 there's no vegetation, they tend to and then you're gonna 1:30:31.760 --> 1:30:33.880 minimize all the other species that are come in and 1:30:34.000 --> 1:30:37.200 utilize that meat. Right, and you can stay unmolested and 1:30:37.280 --> 1:30:39.439 eat for a couple of days, or you'll drag it 1:30:39.520 --> 1:30:43.719 into a bush. But um, yeah, they I My guess 1:30:43.840 --> 1:30:46.160 is just just a guess that you know, because I've 1:30:46.200 --> 1:30:48.519 never seen him kill him as looking at the tracks 1:30:48.560 --> 1:30:51.839 and reading all the literature and friends that they're closing 1:30:51.920 --> 1:30:55.479 the track ya until they until they stop wiggling and 1:30:55.520 --> 1:30:59.400 then they can eat right Okay, back to while staying here, 1:31:01.479 --> 1:31:06.360 when one one will bearer line. Whatever kills livestock, it's 1:31:06.439 --> 1:31:09.920 generally considered like a typical you know, for the for 1:31:10.000 --> 1:31:14.120 the particular animal, like they don't just subsist on it. Correct. 1:31:14.680 --> 1:31:16.760 But that's really surprising that you talk about that. It 1:31:16.840 --> 1:31:19.519 seems like you have like there's lines. That's what they 1:31:19.560 --> 1:31:21.639 do for a living and that's their day in, day 1:31:21.680 --> 1:31:25.679 out food is livestock. Yeah. So there's these huge domestic 1:31:25.760 --> 1:31:29.240 sheep ranches. They're the size of national parks up here 1:31:29.400 --> 1:31:33.120 or larger. And that's millions of Yeah, they're huge, yes, 1:31:33.439 --> 1:31:35.600 and you and and that's and you'll see you know 1:31:35.840 --> 1:31:37.840 some of the park stories the creation in the book 1:31:37.840 --> 1:31:39.760 as well. That's the good news is you know, you 1:31:39.840 --> 1:31:42.000 make it. You make a change down there with a ranch, 1:31:42.120 --> 1:31:45.040 it's gonna be a landscape change with one landowner. But 1:31:45.800 --> 1:31:48.640 um domestic sheep out there, and and they're very they 1:31:48.680 --> 1:31:51.880 eliminate the native winaco. And then wanaco is like a 1:31:52.200 --> 1:31:56.439 like a llama. It's a camel camel it and if 1:31:56.520 --> 1:31:58.600 you hybridizing domestic and you can kind of end up 1:31:58.600 --> 1:32:00.720 with a llama and a crickets it away. But the 1:32:00.800 --> 1:32:03.000 wild version is called a wan aco and it looks 1:32:03.080 --> 1:32:04.800 like a llama, right, yeah, it was. It was like 1:32:04.880 --> 1:32:07.880 an a llama wild olama and a wild version, and 1:32:07.880 --> 1:32:12.400 there's like an alpaca while Vicuna is the alpaca wild version. 1:32:12.800 --> 1:32:15.280 So those it's all camels and cats in Patagonia, right, 1:32:15.439 --> 1:32:18.960 that's and vicunas are the north end. Yeah, it's different 1:32:19.040 --> 1:32:21.360 than here. For when it comes to puma's right, it's same. 1:32:21.680 --> 1:32:23.560 You know, we're talking mountalin up here, puma, they're the 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:27.320 same thing, subspecies, right, So these pumas down there, and 1:32:27.560 --> 1:32:29.320 and I call him puma the second half of the book. 1:32:29.320 --> 1:32:31.400 I would call him mountain lions the first half because 1:32:31.520 --> 1:32:33.679 you know, we're here, and then I wanted readers to feel, 1:32:33.800 --> 1:32:35.720 you know, feel it. We switched to pumas for the 1:32:35.760 --> 1:32:38.519 second half. I thought that was yeah, I like that, 1:32:38.760 --> 1:32:41.920 and uh and I had to convince my editors that 1:32:42.160 --> 1:32:43.920 and and and they got it. But I think it 1:32:44.000 --> 1:32:47.880 adds a little here in South America. So yes, they 1:32:48.040 --> 1:32:52.800 eat non atid prey, European hairs and domestic sheet down 1:32:52.840 --> 1:32:55.759 there in some cases, and that's a problem. So there's 1:32:55.840 --> 1:33:00.400 generations of cowboys called gauchos. The gaucho culture that very tough, 1:33:00.520 --> 1:33:03.840 just like our cowboys. Are ranch hands, and they have 1:33:04.080 --> 1:33:07.599 been raised to kill every lion or puma they find, 1:33:08.000 --> 1:33:10.479 and other species as well, anything that can be a 1:33:10.560 --> 1:33:13.280 threat to sheep. And they run hounds down there too, right, Yeah, 1:33:13.320 --> 1:33:15.840 they do now, but even I mean they they'll walk 1:33:15.920 --> 1:33:17.880 them down down there, they'll ride them down on a horse. 1:33:18.360 --> 1:33:20.760 It's crazy. They're very tough and they're very good at 1:33:20.760 --> 1:33:25.320 what they do. Um, So that's a problem. Tolerance isn't 1:33:25.400 --> 1:33:29.040 there on agricultural ranches for the most part. That's why, 1:33:29.720 --> 1:33:32.200 you know, I tell the story of Chris and Doug 1:33:32.240 --> 1:33:36.080 Tompkins buying these ranches, turning him into parks, giving him 1:33:36.120 --> 1:33:38.080 back to the government. Then all of a sudden, that's 1:33:38.120 --> 1:33:41.960 interest tolerated. Yeah, you're saying that because these ranches being 1:33:42.040 --> 1:33:48.720 so big that a single purchase can create what we 1:33:48.760 --> 1:33:51.840 would imagine to be a national park or larger, larger 1:33:51.880 --> 1:33:55.920 than Yosemite. One purchase and you do a few of them. Um, 1:33:56.040 --> 1:33:58.679 it's interesting. I just saw a statistic now because Doug 1:33:58.760 --> 1:34:01.160 passed away in a kayaking accent about five years ago, 1:34:01.200 --> 1:34:04.360 and Chris is carrying it on the legs his legacy 1:34:04.800 --> 1:34:07.799 and he Doug is now being celebrated in Chile and Argentina. 1:34:07.840 --> 1:34:10.680 They're accepting him. It's amazing the governments are accepting him 1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:13.400 when they didn't trust the process to begin with. But 1:34:13.640 --> 1:34:16.080 they have now donated to be public land that all 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:20.320 of us native Chileans Argentinos can enjoy. U larger than 1:34:20.360 --> 1:34:23.360 the size of Switzerland. They took their personal wealth and 1:34:23.360 --> 1:34:25.240 put it all in the park. So where that's important 1:34:25.400 --> 1:34:28.160 is now you have you can rewild it. You know, 1:34:28.240 --> 1:34:30.880 it doesn't have domestic sheep anymore. The one acos can recover, 1:34:31.280 --> 1:34:33.439 the pumas can recover. When mul dear they have an 1:34:33.439 --> 1:34:36.040 e they have a really interesting deer that looks like 1:34:36.160 --> 1:34:38.800 our mule deer with smaller antlers, a little more of 1:34:38.880 --> 1:34:42.680 a bulbous face. Yeah, when moul is how they pronounce it, 1:34:43.040 --> 1:34:45.120 and it's like a carib we just kind of stands there. 1:34:45.120 --> 1:34:48.120 They're very not afraid of anything. Domestic dogs can take 1:34:48.160 --> 1:34:50.280 them down and it's an issue, but they can recover, 1:34:50.640 --> 1:34:53.280 and so it has to be a park. There's no 1:34:53.400 --> 1:34:56.400 in between down there right now, although that could change 1:34:56.479 --> 1:34:59.720 someday with you know the concept of conservation easements like 1:34:59.840 --> 1:35:02.240 we of here in tax laws, but right now it's 1:35:02.280 --> 1:35:04.040 my understanding. You know, it's almost got to be a 1:35:04.080 --> 1:35:06.519 protected area or it's a ranch, So you work a lot. 1:35:07.240 --> 1:35:09.479 My friends that have been you mentioned that I've had 1:35:09.760 --> 1:35:13.240 twenty five years of exchange has been very fortunate from Argentina, 1:35:13.320 --> 1:35:16.040 scientists in Chilean going back and forth and get to 1:35:16.080 --> 1:35:19.880 share these stories, what works, what doesn't, and they invest 1:35:20.000 --> 1:35:22.840 in private land work like we do now down there, 1:35:22.920 --> 1:35:26.000 and you get landscape level change. With one family if 1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:30.160 they decide to, for instance, only kill the offending puma, 1:35:30.640 --> 1:35:33.400 so that happens up here, right, they will historically go 1:35:33.479 --> 1:35:35.160 out and kill every cat in the ranch. But if 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:37.680 you tell them, you know, just kill the offending cat. 1:35:37.800 --> 1:35:40.240 The others are being good and eating the few winaco 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:42.960 that are on the hill, you know, And and that's 1:35:43.040 --> 1:35:45.360 all of a sudden a landscape level change. But it's 1:35:45.479 --> 1:35:48.760 messy conservation. It's like drinking coffee and fixing fence up here. 1:35:48.920 --> 1:35:51.439 Down there, it's drinking mate and and talking to a 1:35:51.479 --> 1:35:53.800 sheep rancher in the gauchos. And but they're doing it. 1:35:54.439 --> 1:35:58.880 But what I couldn't gather from your book is the 1:35:59.600 --> 1:36:02.040 why or pumas aren't hurting down there, right? I mean, 1:36:02.520 --> 1:36:04.240 are they? Are? They not? Because it seemed like, on 1:36:04.360 --> 1:36:08.920 one hand you're talking about social tolerance and preservation, but 1:36:09.000 --> 1:36:10.840 on the other hand, you're painting a picture that seems 1:36:10.840 --> 1:36:13.240 like there's a puma behind every rock. You know, they 1:36:13.320 --> 1:36:15.400 were they were hurting kind of ad to that too, 1:36:15.479 --> 1:36:18.479 because it seems like if for hundreds of years the 1:36:18.520 --> 1:36:21.519 gouches have been trained and brought up to kill every line, 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:26.080 how are there any left in protected areas? And that's yeah, 1:36:26.160 --> 1:36:29.280 you look at some of those government established parks before, 1:36:29.400 --> 1:36:31.599 you know, not talking to the Tompkins Parks that are 1:36:31.640 --> 1:36:35.000 now government parks. But it either had to be a 1:36:35.120 --> 1:36:38.880 European landowner that didn't you know, or a Chilean or 1:36:38.920 --> 1:36:42.240 Argentine landowner that didn't believe in that. But most of 1:36:42.320 --> 1:36:45.160 them was sheep. We're going to control the cats. They 1:36:45.200 --> 1:36:48.120 had to be protected areas. So what's happened here since 1:36:48.240 --> 1:36:50.960 the sixties has also happened down there, but on the 1:36:51.040 --> 1:36:54.760 backs of domestic sheep, and that in the protected area. 1:36:54.800 --> 1:36:57.719 They were even persecuted in protected areas to some degree. 1:36:58.240 --> 1:37:01.040 H there was differences in laws in Chilean Argentina still 1:37:01.080 --> 1:37:05.439 are today and they've becomes more of a conflict, a 1:37:05.520 --> 1:37:08.439 permanent conflict where the gauchos are constantly taken out the 1:37:08.520 --> 1:37:11.400 cats at the edge of these parks, you know, for 1:37:11.560 --> 1:37:15.480 fear of predation on their domestic sheet. And but they 1:37:15.560 --> 1:37:19.360 seem to be increasing in distribution down there. Based on 1:37:19.479 --> 1:37:22.599 my colleagues and and and and my experience listening to them, 1:37:22.680 --> 1:37:26.719 it's which is causing increased conflict, correct, correct, And therein 1:37:26.880 --> 1:37:31.160 lies either job security if you're a conflict biologist, or 1:37:31.200 --> 1:37:33.680 a big problem. You know, if you're a gaucho and 1:37:33.760 --> 1:37:37.439 a rancher and it's messy conservation, you know, how how 1:37:37.520 --> 1:37:40.880 do you how do you recover a native carnivore if 1:37:40.920 --> 1:37:44.280 that's your goal when there's no native prey and all 1:37:44.360 --> 1:37:48.280 the economic value, right, that's where that's where gets interested. 1:37:48.400 --> 1:37:51.280 It's awkward. And then European hairs are larger than our hairs. 1:37:51.840 --> 1:37:55.599 There are cats that almost exclusively exist on European hairs. 1:37:55.680 --> 1:37:58.000 They're a little more of a meat packet. And but 1:37:58.120 --> 1:38:02.560 it's a Patagonia unwrap raveled with these huge domestic biologically 1:38:02.920 --> 1:38:06.400 unraveled with these huge domestic sheep ranches. But slowly those 1:38:06.439 --> 1:38:09.960 biologists down there have these visions of rewilding, you know, 1:38:10.200 --> 1:38:12.920 ranch at a time, community at a time. That so 1:38:13.040 --> 1:38:16.120 my biggest thing my whole career. My my, I haven't 1:38:16.120 --> 1:38:18.920 been a research biologists my whole career. You know, I've 1:38:18.960 --> 1:38:21.479 I've done a little bit what I call both um. 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:24.200 I was a management biologist. That's messy. That's where you 1:38:24.320 --> 1:38:27.360 set seasons and go to communities down there, same as 1:38:27.439 --> 1:38:31.360 up here. If conservation isn't accepted locally, it's not durable, 1:38:31.680 --> 1:38:34.040 flat out, it won't last. And so what they're doing 1:38:34.080 --> 1:38:36.800 down there is trying to make you know, how do 1:38:36.880 --> 1:38:40.200 you get a ranch to tolerate one acos when they 1:38:40.280 --> 1:38:42.160 think they're going to compete and eat the grass their 1:38:42.200 --> 1:38:45.200 sheep eat. But if they have oneacos, perhaps the pumas 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:48.560 are gonna predate less on their sheep and do the oneacos. 1:38:48.600 --> 1:38:51.000 That's where they're going right now. And indeed, you know 1:38:51.040 --> 1:38:52.880 they're going to try and tease that out. But that 1:38:53.280 --> 1:38:56.519 that's how messy it is. It involves people and and 1:38:56.720 --> 1:39:02.840 and economic value. Do you regard yourself as an inflict biologists? No, Now, 1:39:02.880 --> 1:39:04.880 I'm kind of support staff at this point in my career. 1:39:04.960 --> 1:39:08.240 But my I, like you know, my Stephen might, I'm 1:39:08.920 --> 1:39:11.240 the way what I probably my my entire career on 1:39:11.400 --> 1:39:14.840 is I really like people. I enjoy people loud biologist, 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:17.800 don't you know? Depends on what floats your boat, right. 1:39:17.880 --> 1:39:20.160 I like people I have like landowners, I have like 1:39:20.280 --> 1:39:23.000 how when I have like hunters, I like animal rights peole, 1:39:23.040 --> 1:39:26.200 I like them all. I love the relationshipship of people 1:39:26.479 --> 1:39:29.479 to conservation. And my bias is it's got to be 1:39:29.640 --> 1:39:32.599 very local, and when it's local, it's conflicts. So yeah, 1:39:32.720 --> 1:39:35.920 I've been involved in a lot of my staff. Bear 1:39:36.000 --> 1:39:39.120 conflicts in northwest Montana is a big deal. Right, we 1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:41.920 have phenomenal staff, but it will never go away. Lion 1:39:42.040 --> 1:39:49.559 conflicts actually are much um oh pretty much winter. Well, 1:39:49.680 --> 1:39:50.960 as soon as I say that, I can think of 1:39:51.000 --> 1:39:55.040 summer events. But where the residential footprint has been allowed 1:39:55.120 --> 1:39:59.639 to expand in western Montana into former dearnel cabitat, into 1:39:59.680 --> 1:40:02.800 the tree everyone wants a postcard, those conflicts are gonna 1:40:02.840 --> 1:40:05.240 be there forever. You would have to go scorch stirth 1:40:05.320 --> 1:40:07.479 on bears and lions and wolves to eliminate the conflict 1:40:07.600 --> 1:40:09.599 because the homes are in the wrong place, there where 1:40:09.640 --> 1:40:11.960 the deer are, there where they all are. So given 1:40:12.000 --> 1:40:14.160 that the homes aren't going to move. We have to 1:40:14.360 --> 1:40:17.960 constantly and my mind it will be multiple generations work 1:40:18.040 --> 1:40:20.920 with people the turn of turnover. How to live with 1:40:20.960 --> 1:40:23.840 these wild likee species that's here, it's all livestock down there, 1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:30.160 and we have more nationally Yea. In your book you 1:40:30.240 --> 1:40:31.720 kind of paint this picture of that it's going to 1:40:31.800 --> 1:40:33.680 require tolerance. You know when you talk about a lot 1:40:33.680 --> 1:40:36.120 of places that tolerance is growing, and you talk about, 1:40:37.080 --> 1:40:41.479 you know, the idea that um increasing populations of other predators. 1:40:41.479 --> 1:40:42.760 You know what put this as a negative just a 1:40:42.880 --> 1:40:46.439 matter of fact that you know, expanding populations of wolves, 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:50.000 expanding populations of grizzlies, um can have a negative impact 1:40:50.040 --> 1:40:55.280 on lines that issues around you know, issues around climate 1:40:55.360 --> 1:40:59.920 can affect populations. But with all these areas of concern 1:41:00.000 --> 1:41:05.439 and that you point out, we have more now in 1:41:05.560 --> 1:41:10.760 more places than at any time in hundred plus years. Yeah, 1:41:10.960 --> 1:41:13.840 I mean they're like something clicked, well and they're just 1:41:15.080 --> 1:41:17.680 they're just showing up everywhere. Well, I'll get on my 1:41:17.720 --> 1:41:23.000 soapbox again. For hunters, legal hunters, UM hunters paid this 1:41:23.160 --> 1:41:26.040 country created a mechanism whereby hunters could pay for the 1:41:26.120 --> 1:41:29.240 recovery of the prey. And you recovery the grocery store, 1:41:29.840 --> 1:41:32.519 the cats are going to be whether we whether we 1:41:32.760 --> 1:41:34.760 like it or not, those shoppers are there because we 1:41:34.960 --> 1:41:38.280 can't see them. But it was Darnell hunters that put 1:41:38.320 --> 1:41:41.439 their money and still do, whether it's working with game 1:41:41.520 --> 1:41:44.720 damage or buying winter ranges as wildife management areas, or 1:41:44.800 --> 1:41:48.559 funding surveys. Once the prey were recovered in this country, 1:41:49.000 --> 1:41:52.920 then Carnivort. Do you feel that. That's what's huge, That's 1:41:52.920 --> 1:41:55.680 what's going on. It's huge. It's unique in the world. Um, 1:41:55.880 --> 1:41:58.240 you know in Canada. United States has that model of 1:41:58.280 --> 1:42:00.640 funding for conservation. You know, I've told the story of 1:42:00.720 --> 1:42:02.920 thousand times. I hesitate even tell again, but it's quick 1:42:03.000 --> 1:42:05.720 enough where I get away of it is. And even 1:42:05.800 --> 1:42:10.200 my friend Doug during and in Wisconsin, right, he talks abou. 1:42:10.200 --> 1:42:12.720 When he was a little kid, if you saw a 1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:16.280 deer track, you told your dad about it. And now 1:42:17.040 --> 1:42:23.200 they've got like in in a in an almost alarming way, 1:42:23.240 --> 1:42:27.599 they have the opposite problem. You know, they're talking seventy 1:42:27.680 --> 1:42:34.200 five deer for square mile, a habitat disease issues. But yeah, 1:42:34.240 --> 1:42:37.280 you'd go home there that's dear track dad and this guy, 1:42:37.880 --> 1:42:39.720 this isn't some old cadre. I mean, this guy is 1:42:39.720 --> 1:42:44.840 still kicking right along. I haven't got a daughter in 1:42:44.960 --> 1:42:47.040 college and he remembers that right. This isn't like some 1:42:47.280 --> 1:42:49.560 hundred and twenty year old dude telling your story. What 1:42:49.680 --> 1:42:52.160 worries me most is you get look at Canada geese, 1:42:52.280 --> 1:42:54.400 white tail deer to some degree, when they get to 1:42:54.680 --> 1:42:57.640 become almost a nuisance level, we take for granted, We 1:42:57.720 --> 1:43:02.320 take for granted what it took to recovery this incredible 1:43:03.320 --> 1:43:07.000 valued wild commodity that we enjoy in deer and elk 1:43:07.240 --> 1:43:09.719 and all the other species with them. That all happened 1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:13.160 by design, not by accident, and and and when they 1:43:13.240 --> 1:43:16.240 become nuisance levels, it's easy to kind of brush off 1:43:16.360 --> 1:43:20.400 what it took to get him here. So lions, bears, wolves, whatever, 1:43:20.880 --> 1:43:24.680 that all started because people funded the habitat work that 1:43:24.800 --> 1:43:27.960 supported the prey for these species. And we I don't 1:43:27.960 --> 1:43:30.679 think we can ever forget that. And it's not it's 1:43:30.720 --> 1:43:34.559 not common around the world. Yeah, what do you got? 1:43:34.600 --> 1:43:37.479 I'm done tapped? Oh man, I got a bunch. If 1:43:37.479 --> 1:43:39.800 we got time, rip a couple out, give me your 1:43:39.800 --> 1:43:42.120 best one. I don't know where to start. I'm gonna rate. 1:43:42.160 --> 1:43:47.360 I'm gonna rate your questions. I've been looking for for that. Well, 1:43:47.840 --> 1:43:49.720 we'll start off with the tolerance thing. I try to 1:43:49.720 --> 1:43:52.760 slip it in earlier but didn't get the opportunity. Um 1:43:53.360 --> 1:43:57.680 but do you feel like the tolerance We have some 1:43:58.000 --> 1:44:00.719 friends that are handlers in biology is and they feel 1:44:00.760 --> 1:44:03.360 like with the increased tolerance that we're having a little 1:44:03.400 --> 1:44:06.760 bit more um hard encounters as they call it, and 1:44:06.960 --> 1:44:09.560 being like the two that have happened recently in Washington 1:44:09.680 --> 1:44:14.479 in Oregon right where people are dying at the jaws 1:44:14.560 --> 1:44:17.040 of the line. Is that just coincidence or do you 1:44:17.120 --> 1:44:20.880 think they there there's something there? Personally? I think it's 1:44:21.080 --> 1:44:24.479 it's random. I think there are more people, and you 1:44:24.560 --> 1:44:27.360 look at where where there are more humans, and there 1:44:27.400 --> 1:44:30.720 are more humans playing outdoors, and we're encouraging people to 1:44:30.760 --> 1:44:33.439 play outdoors. It's a great thing. You're gonna get random 1:44:33.520 --> 1:44:38.040 stochastic encounters like that. I don't think there's personally that 1:44:38.240 --> 1:44:40.840 there's a relationship there. I think there's just more people 1:44:40.920 --> 1:44:44.880 playing outside. But it was uncanny for Washington to have 1:44:45.000 --> 1:44:48.519 its first ever or first the ninety four years person 1:44:48.640 --> 1:44:50.679 killed by the line, and then then it's neighboring state 1:44:50.760 --> 1:44:52.679 to have the first and state history within a couple 1:44:52.720 --> 1:44:54.200 of months of each other, and when it was quiet 1:44:54.200 --> 1:44:56.719 for like ten years in the country. It invites people 1:44:56.760 --> 1:44:58.760 to be like, oh, what's going on here? Well, it 1:44:59.160 --> 1:45:02.000 makes ways the recesses of our monkey brains fire off 1:45:02.080 --> 1:45:06.479 with great white sharks, lions, bears. When you know, I 1:45:06.600 --> 1:45:09.080 just saw a thing on TV. Beastings cause more deaths 1:45:09.120 --> 1:45:11.200 than you know. We're not afraid of bees. Really, the 1:45:11.280 --> 1:45:15.439 real killers domestic dogs, Oh my god. And and well 1:45:15.439 --> 1:45:17.200 I like to run it lunch and jog, and I'm 1:45:17.320 --> 1:45:19.920 terrified when the wrong dog is coming after me. But 1:45:20.200 --> 1:45:24.479 but drive around, Yeah, you drive around. You know, anyone 1:45:24.520 --> 1:45:27.960 who's out on the road Friday night around midnight, you 1:45:28.040 --> 1:45:32.400 know you wanna talk about sketchy time, sketchy encounters. And 1:45:32.479 --> 1:45:34.800 a lot of my journalist friends, you know, they write 1:45:34.840 --> 1:45:36.880 a story about grizzly bears or lions, it'll go a 1:45:37.000 --> 1:45:39.960 b because people love it. People love it. They write 1:45:39.960 --> 1:45:42.640 it about white tail deer. It's not but people in 1:45:42.960 --> 1:45:46.120 the different cultures and and with carnivores and our relationship 1:45:46.240 --> 1:45:48.800 to them. Um, it's always gonna be a big deal. 1:45:48.840 --> 1:45:51.800 Like a white shark, you know, Although that's that terrifies me. 1:45:51.800 --> 1:45:53.720 I used to longboards, you know, and not have a 1:45:53.800 --> 1:45:56.840 thirty foot missile below you with the brain that big. Yeah, listen, 1:45:56.880 --> 1:46:01.640 there are there are um when it comes to that, 1:46:02.080 --> 1:46:04.200 there's a lot of your rational fear, but there are 1:46:05.800 --> 1:46:10.320 high exposure activities, correct. I am not annoyed when surfers 1:46:10.439 --> 1:46:16.600 or abalone divers talk about great white sharks. When some 1:46:16.880 --> 1:46:18.840 person that like now and then we'll go take a 1:46:18.920 --> 1:46:22.920 swim on the coast and then talk about sharks. When 1:46:23.000 --> 1:46:27.800 a archery elk hunter talks about grizzlies, that doesn't annoy me. 1:46:28.920 --> 1:46:33.080 When someone who you know, drives a mile out of 1:46:33.120 --> 1:46:34.840 town and takes a little walk in the woods every 1:46:34.960 --> 1:46:36.760 few weeks and they talk about them, then I get 1:46:36.800 --> 1:46:40.240 a little annoyed. There are high exposure groups. Yeah, you're 1:46:40.439 --> 1:46:44.479 absolutely correct, So like a northern California surfer from all 1:46:44.560 --> 1:46:48.120 years if you want to talk about sharks. But but yeah, 1:46:48.160 --> 1:46:50.400 your point is, I think it was I think it 1:46:50.479 --> 1:46:53.960 was random. Other than what isn't random is the human 1:46:54.040 --> 1:46:58.559 populations growing and that outdoor recreation economy. We're gonna that's 1:46:58.600 --> 1:47:00.519 how we market it in our communit He's here. It's 1:47:00.560 --> 1:47:03.959 big business more than agg even now the latest statistics 1:47:04.040 --> 1:47:06.080 that are being passed around, So you're gonna probably have 1:47:06.200 --> 1:47:10.400 more of these random events, you know. Good question is 1:47:10.439 --> 1:47:13.519 another one you're on a roll. Um, you can't get 1:47:13.560 --> 1:47:16.799 on a roll with just one. I appreciate the praise 1:47:17.120 --> 1:47:19.479 for the and how many times just in the last 1:47:19.600 --> 1:47:22.599 ninety minutes you've given praise to hunters for like helping 1:47:22.640 --> 1:47:24.320 this whole thing along to get to where we are. 1:47:24.479 --> 1:47:27.360 That's great to hear, right. We often hear that in 1:47:27.840 --> 1:47:31.160 now in the upcoming classes of young biologists. There aren't 1:47:31.160 --> 1:47:36.679 as many hunters in those classes. So one is that true? 1:47:36.800 --> 1:47:40.559 And then two do is that a perceived problem? By Yeah? 1:47:40.720 --> 1:47:43.080 I you know, you know I was a while after 1:47:43.160 --> 1:47:44.800 I left the field as a wildfe bologist. It was 1:47:44.840 --> 1:47:48.439 a wildife program manager for seventeen years up in northwest Montana. 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:50.479 So I had to hire right, and I'd always go 1:47:50.560 --> 1:47:53.280 to wildlife stiding meetings like a coach doing a draft, 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:56.599 you know, And yeah, you know the field is much 1:47:56.640 --> 1:47:59.080 more diverse. It was all white. It was all white males, 1:47:59.240 --> 1:48:01.479 you know, for the most Barton, Montana was the exception. 1:48:01.800 --> 1:48:04.479 We had a handful of professional women now in Montana 1:48:04.600 --> 1:48:07.519 are management biologist. And while it's probably almost fifty fifty 1:48:07.560 --> 1:48:10.800 men and women and and as whether they hunt or 1:48:10.840 --> 1:48:15.960 not um isn't as important as their relationship with people 1:48:16.000 --> 1:48:18.840 and working with them. I think, yes, perhaps I don't know, 1:48:18.960 --> 1:48:20.840 I don't don't know the data. I'll be making it up. 1:48:21.280 --> 1:48:25.439 But um, when we when I used to hire, you know, 1:48:25.520 --> 1:48:27.639 what you're getting at is, you know, I want someone 1:48:27.720 --> 1:48:31.639 that can build relationships with everyone and translate that science 1:48:31.800 --> 1:48:35.280 into the communities for local conservations, so at lasts, whether 1:48:35.360 --> 1:48:37.960 it's seasons or habitat or research, you name it. You 1:48:38.120 --> 1:48:40.040 have to be willing to work with those groups. And 1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:41.920 if you can't work with hunters, you're gonna have a 1:48:42.000 --> 1:48:45.479 problem because that's paying your salary. But that doesn't really 1:48:45.560 --> 1:48:47.960 translate into whether your hunt or not. You know, how 1:48:48.040 --> 1:48:51.840 okay are you? With population management? And working with people 1:48:52.040 --> 1:48:56.519 is more important? Um? But perhaps yeah, you see, nationally, 1:48:56.560 --> 1:48:58.880 I think Montana's holding our own a little more with 1:48:59.040 --> 1:49:01.599 hunting recruitment than some of the areas where it's declining, 1:49:01.920 --> 1:49:04.479 and that whole farm to table movement has actually caused 1:49:04.520 --> 1:49:06.840 a spike and in our hunter red classes, more women 1:49:07.080 --> 1:49:09.400 are wanting to take their own meat, cut it up themselves, 1:49:09.680 --> 1:49:11.880 and serve it to their friends with only them having 1:49:11.960 --> 1:49:14.000 touched it. That's kind of cool. That's been a recent 1:49:14.080 --> 1:49:16.800 thing in the last five ten years. But but the 1:49:17.160 --> 1:49:21.200 but the national trips, I think you're right there, they're declining. 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:25.360 And you see it in young biologists too. Then less 1:49:25.479 --> 1:49:28.240 less hunters coming through the well, not necessarily here. I 1:49:28.320 --> 1:49:30.720 think people come here because they in part because they 1:49:30.760 --> 1:49:33.920 know the the hunting is is pretty affordable and pretty 1:49:34.320 --> 1:49:37.679 the opportunities are here, and in the graduate school cultures 1:49:37.800 --> 1:49:39.560 that are there, most of them. I learned how to 1:49:39.640 --> 1:49:41.439 hunt in grad school. Big game. You know, I ran 1:49:41.479 --> 1:49:44.479 a muskrat trapline, but we didn't have deer when I 1:49:44.560 --> 1:49:47.120 was born and San Diego, and we're gonna hunt there, 1:49:47.200 --> 1:49:50.400 right you fish? But you know they're gonna they pick 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:52.960 it up in grad school if they haven't already. Typically, 1:49:53.560 --> 1:49:57.519 and that's what I found. Hit them another one. Okay, 1:49:58.000 --> 1:49:59.760 still on a roll? Did you like that one? Well, 1:50:00.040 --> 1:50:01.840 you pointed out that you couldn't be on one or earlier. 1:50:01.960 --> 1:50:09.760 But like the first, um, the first one, eight, back 1:50:09.800 --> 1:50:14.920 to back to five, back to the sport of chasing 1:50:15.479 --> 1:50:21.880 cats with with dogs. Um, do you feel like there's 1:50:21.880 --> 1:50:26.360 any negative effect to the cats? Most? Yeah, yeah, most 1:50:26.439 --> 1:50:28.800 of the researchers is no. You may be you know, 1:50:29.000 --> 1:50:32.840 whether it's stress or behavior or affecting life history traits 1:50:33.200 --> 1:50:35.160 by pursuing them with a dog. And actually, if you 1:50:35.200 --> 1:50:38.000 think about it, you know those hound handlers have to 1:50:38.120 --> 1:50:40.360 raise those puppies, they have to follow them. But what 1:50:40.479 --> 1:50:41.800 it does allow you to do and it does it 1:50:41.880 --> 1:50:44.479 with the researchers, do we use the same dogs, same 1:50:44.560 --> 1:50:47.640 helman In most cases, it allows you to be discriminate 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:49.679 the animals up there is at a male or female? 1:50:49.960 --> 1:50:53.080 How old is it, whether it's a legally sanctioned take 1:50:53.200 --> 1:50:54.920 where they can read. You know, when you kill an 1:50:54.960 --> 1:50:57.599 animal legal ease as you reduce it to your possession 1:50:57.720 --> 1:50:59.960 right that allows you to tell if it's a male 1:51:00.120 --> 1:51:01.760 season or a female season. To being up on the 1:51:01.800 --> 1:51:05.240 science are using, you know, to manage that population. You 1:51:05.320 --> 1:51:07.200 can actually see the animal and do that and as 1:51:07.240 --> 1:51:09.320 a biologist, you know, do you know? Do you you 1:51:09.400 --> 1:51:11.600 know the researcher, do you need a radio and a 1:51:11.640 --> 1:51:13.559 female or mail you can do that. You need hounds 1:51:13.640 --> 1:51:16.680 to see them. They're like ghosts. They magically appear with 1:51:16.760 --> 1:51:20.479 these dogs. Sometimes it's ten minutes, sometimes it's ten hours, 1:51:21.000 --> 1:51:23.120 and they say in there they take you to places 1:51:23.160 --> 1:51:26.439 you will never go. Ye experienced that on just a 1:51:26.520 --> 1:51:29.479 few catalants that we've been on. But yeah, for somehow, 1:51:29.560 --> 1:51:32.120 when you're out chasing looking for Alcolm, you'll dear you 1:51:32.280 --> 1:51:38.479 don't end up where you chase those dogs. Just never never. Um, 1:51:39.479 --> 1:51:41.920 what else did I have for you? Does that move 1:51:42.000 --> 1:51:46.640 one more? Um? Let's you're tapped out. No, I'm not 1:51:46.800 --> 1:51:51.639 tapped out. There was a line there where you said 1:51:51.680 --> 1:51:58.639 that killing um lions, this strupts the field, the field 1:51:58.760 --> 1:52:02.160 social order, killing lions, and then it may lead to 1:52:02.400 --> 1:52:07.000 more human cat conflict. So that's a concept that's come 1:52:07.040 --> 1:52:13.640 about with researchers UM relatively recently in the last ten years. UM. 1:52:13.880 --> 1:52:16.320 And it's that and I've seen it referred to as 1:52:16.520 --> 1:52:20.360 juvenile delinquent hypothesis. But it's a little more complicated than that. 1:52:20.479 --> 1:52:23.479 But picture a large male. You pull him out right, 1:52:23.560 --> 1:52:26.320 let's say, right out of Bozeman, and you have a 1:52:26.400 --> 1:52:29.560 large male that's very mature and he's he's king of 1:52:29.640 --> 1:52:32.360 his world right over here, and then you take him out. 1:52:33.040 --> 1:52:35.960 Whether it's a conflict you know, he killed a goat 1:52:36.080 --> 1:52:38.479 or whatever. All of a sudden, you've got two, three, 1:52:38.600 --> 1:52:42.400 four males temporarily until it sorts out in there. All 1:52:42.400 --> 1:52:44.240 of a sudden you have four miles instead of one. 1:52:44.520 --> 1:52:47.519 So you have this there's it's disruptive because they're trying 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:49.640 to sort out whose territory it's going to be. You 1:52:49.720 --> 1:52:52.320 might actually have more teeth on the landscape temporarily by 1:52:52.360 --> 1:52:54.840 taking an old guy out. Now, I mean this is 1:52:54.880 --> 1:52:58.400 a very heavily haunted area. Yeah, everything around here gets pounded. Yeah, 1:52:58.520 --> 1:53:00.960 there's no way that you have a situation where you're 1:53:01.000 --> 1:53:04.960 able to You're gonna have some mail. It's gonna set 1:53:05.040 --> 1:53:07.800 up shop and rule the rules for five six years. Well, 1:53:08.120 --> 1:53:09.840 and again, i'd have to look at the data because 1:53:09.840 --> 1:53:16.200 I'm a data guy to see. But one of the 1:53:16.320 --> 1:53:18.519 one of the chapters in in my book that I'm 1:53:18.600 --> 1:53:21.680 frankly i'm very proud of. It's called locals Only, and 1:53:21.720 --> 1:53:23.840 it's how a season is set if you're a student, 1:53:24.120 --> 1:53:27.920 it is the I've rarely seen in any book, in 1:53:28.000 --> 1:53:31.479 any article, how biologists set seasons working with commissions and communities. 1:53:32.200 --> 1:53:34.160 Interesting and it's it could be a textbook in a 1:53:34.240 --> 1:53:37.560 class because we moved to limited entry on cats and 1:53:37.600 --> 1:53:39.599 there was a lot of issues because there was money 1:53:39.640 --> 1:53:42.360 involved with some of the We called a December dash 1:53:42.439 --> 1:53:44.479 for cash, you know, and that was happening, you know. 1:53:44.640 --> 1:53:47.120 So they're very valuable for non residents. But we couldn't 1:53:47.160 --> 1:53:49.000 shut the seasons down, you know, we couldn't do it. 1:53:49.280 --> 1:53:51.000 It was a supply and demand problem. So we went 1:53:51.080 --> 1:53:53.800 to limited entry. And we even have male female sub 1:53:53.880 --> 1:53:57.360 quotas to address tag dress. And that's random to the 1:53:57.400 --> 1:54:00.160 point of being cruel. You know, some people drop three 1:54:00.200 --> 1:54:02.760 years in a row, another won't draw one in three years. Right, 1:54:02.840 --> 1:54:06.440 it's just random. But what it allows us as biologists 1:54:06.479 --> 1:54:08.960 to do, as an agency to do is you can 1:54:09.000 --> 1:54:10.519 take the best science in the world. We've got this 1:54:10.600 --> 1:54:13.960 brand new mountain lion management plan that's out there. You've 1:54:14.000 --> 1:54:17.599 finly seen it circulating this two weeks. Best science, frankly 1:54:17.840 --> 1:54:20.000 on the planet doesn't get to what you want. But 1:54:20.120 --> 1:54:22.640 we can take that science on a density. Once you 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:24.800 decide in an area what you want, and you can 1:54:24.920 --> 1:54:27.800 give a prescription of males and females that you think, 1:54:28.680 --> 1:54:31.679 depending upon your objectives, can be taken off the landscape 1:54:31.720 --> 1:54:34.480 to address that problem. That you mentioned, Steven, and that 1:54:34.720 --> 1:54:36.760 that took and it's unique where we're at. We could 1:54:36.760 --> 1:54:39.360 do it because they're mostly public land or corporate timberland, 1:54:39.400 --> 1:54:43.680 but that took a limited entry draw to to manage that. 1:54:44.120 --> 1:54:46.960 And now some areas with landowner tallerance clearly that wouldn't 1:54:47.000 --> 1:54:50.000 work right you you need Holman in there. But incidentally, 1:54:50.080 --> 1:54:53.240 that lion the management plan, guy named Jake Coolby wrote it. 1:54:53.320 --> 1:54:55.120 You got to meet him. He's a wonderful guy. He's 1:54:55.160 --> 1:54:58.000 a biologist now and white sulfur. He volunteered for me 1:54:58.520 --> 1:55:02.840 almost thirty years ago. Ben around there. He is this tall, 1:55:02.920 --> 1:55:05.920 skinny kid bandana but he had legs twice as long 1:55:05.960 --> 1:55:08.000 as mine and got he'd take off and go do 1:55:08.120 --> 1:55:11.040 anything we needed him to do. And here at this 1:55:11.120 --> 1:55:12.760 point in my career, he just wrote the line plan. 1:55:12.800 --> 1:55:14.720 I think it's kind of cool. And he's from I 1:55:14.800 --> 1:55:17.640 think he might be from Michigan somewhere back east. But anyway, 1:55:18.160 --> 1:55:23.520 we have this plan out now, very sharp brains whatever, whatever. 1:55:24.760 --> 1:55:27.160 But but here we know Montana again is at the 1:55:27.240 --> 1:55:30.240 forefront for mountain lion management. It's there's more science in 1:55:30.320 --> 1:55:32.760 that plan. We worked with the University of Montana than 1:55:32.840 --> 1:55:36.080 any other state, I'd argue or province in in in 1:55:36.200 --> 1:55:38.800 the country and North or North and South America. It's 1:55:38.880 --> 1:55:41.440 very good. Doesn't get to what you want. That's community, 1:55:41.520 --> 1:55:44.040 that's messy. That's what still has to be fought out 1:55:44.080 --> 1:55:46.240 at a local level. But it's got the science there 1:55:46.440 --> 1:55:48.920 so you can try. It's a privilege, you know. I 1:55:48.960 --> 1:55:50.640 always take hunting as a privilege. We have to have 1:55:50.720 --> 1:55:53.080 the best science to do it. And uh and this 1:55:53.240 --> 1:55:56.040 does that in terms of people, you know, being concerned. 1:55:56.040 --> 1:55:57.440 On the other side, I feel like they need to 1:55:57.480 --> 1:55:59.560 send that send some of that plan down and I 1:55:59.600 --> 1:56:02.400 don't want wanted to comment on this point. They need 1:56:02.440 --> 1:56:04.320 to send that plan down to Arizona. I feel like 1:56:04.320 --> 1:56:06.160 they're kind of approached it the wrong way down there. 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:09.560 Man Um and I talked and that that's coming from hounds. 1:56:09.640 --> 1:56:13.080 Mean yeah, I hear that from hounds. Mean it. It's 1:56:13.800 --> 1:56:16.840 from what I understand, and I'm jumping into areas I 1:56:16.920 --> 1:56:21.560 know very little about, thank you. The cattle component is huge, 1:56:21.920 --> 1:56:24.240 and for whatever, there's a lot more cattle depredation down 1:56:24.280 --> 1:56:28.560 there and and historically in New Mexico. Yeah, and a 1:56:28.600 --> 1:56:30.840 whole bunch of it's a different systems, you know, and 1:56:31.080 --> 1:56:35.280 and that's when I'm very unfamiliar with so but yeah, interesting, 1:56:35.400 --> 1:56:37.800 I although you know, I did think this plan is 1:56:37.880 --> 1:56:40.800 something every state could look at because UM it's got 1:56:40.880 --> 1:56:44.600 some really cool UM population models in there that takes 1:56:44.640 --> 1:56:47.440 the data we can collect on cats. Again, they're like ghosts, 1:56:47.840 --> 1:56:50.320 You're limited on the data you can collect on them. 1:56:50.720 --> 1:56:54.280 And then and then UM uses the best scientific techniques 1:56:54.320 --> 1:56:57.040 to kind of chug out, you know, where your different 1:56:57.120 --> 1:56:59.879 scenarios could be depending on what you want on the landscape. 1:57:00.400 --> 1:57:03.240 Have you ever heard the word, oh, no, keep going? 1:57:03.720 --> 1:57:07.120 Have you ever heard the word concluder? O you too early? 1:57:07.160 --> 1:57:14.760 Because check out this double segue? I got a double segue. 1:57:14.960 --> 1:57:20.720 Might might be the first time ever UM because speak 1:57:20.760 --> 1:57:23.920 of them being uh ghosts, not only do you don't 1:57:24.000 --> 1:57:28.080 see them, but you can't smell them. And as first Steve, 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:30.760 the most interesting thing in the book was that he 1:57:30.920 --> 1:57:35.840 couldn't understand or he didn't know that they had completely left, 1:57:35.880 --> 1:57:38.040 you know, the North American continent for a time period. 1:57:38.360 --> 1:57:41.280 To me, the most interesting thing UM in the book 1:57:41.440 --> 1:57:44.000 was that I didn't know how actually little they smelled, 1:57:44.040 --> 1:57:47.879 and like why it would be avantageous and multiple um spaces, 1:57:47.920 --> 1:57:51.560 you know in their world. That's a double segue. Yeah, 1:57:51.560 --> 1:57:55.960 because I included you're like the most interesting thing about 1:57:56.000 --> 1:58:00.560 the book, and then as in the ghost likeness doubled up, 1:58:01.520 --> 1:58:04.760 you made an extra smooth I don't know about that, 1:58:05.600 --> 1:58:07.880 but I guess the question is, was there like an 1:58:07.920 --> 1:58:10.880 aha moment for you where I'm sure you learned about 1:58:11.000 --> 1:58:12.920 the fact that they didn't have scent, but did you 1:58:12.960 --> 1:58:15.240 ever just like have one in your train lines and 1:58:15.280 --> 1:58:18.000 stuck your nose in it and go, wow, Literally, you 1:58:18.080 --> 1:58:20.240 can't smell this thing. The only time I could smell 1:58:20.360 --> 1:58:23.560 him really is if you're climbing a tree and they 1:58:23.640 --> 1:58:26.360 you're you know, they're tranquilized and their stress, but it's 1:58:26.400 --> 1:58:29.280 a you know, it's a dissociated tranquilizer. They they kind 1:58:29.280 --> 1:58:31.400 of their muscles tightened, so they don't follow the tree, right. 1:58:31.480 --> 1:58:32.480 You have got to climb up in the ear and 1:58:32.520 --> 1:58:35.920 they you you can smell that. But the cats are 1:58:35.960 --> 1:58:41.960 really clean, if they're pretty clean, even bears are pretty clean, 1:58:42.040 --> 1:58:44.000 un less been rolling around in a coulvert trap full 1:58:44.040 --> 1:58:47.880 of of fit. But do you feel like they're so 1:58:48.080 --> 1:58:53.400 clean that they could be coming in up wind of prey? Yeah? 1:58:53.520 --> 1:58:59.280 I don't know, dear wind, how likely our dear to 1:58:59.360 --> 1:59:03.320 wind line. Yeah, I would probably say unlikely our lions 1:59:03.360 --> 1:59:07.440 would have went extinct, But I don't know. Yeah that 1:59:07.560 --> 1:59:09.040 you know, that's you know what you ought to do 1:59:09.080 --> 1:59:11.680 when you retire, to do a study or do a 1:59:11.720 --> 1:59:14.200 starty to see if they play the wind. Yeah, that 1:59:14.280 --> 1:59:15.960 before I want to be a technician when I retire, 1:59:15.960 --> 1:59:20.440 I want to roll back into the field, right, good idea. Yeah, 1:59:20.960 --> 1:59:23.080 anything gets you outside too. That would be a tough 1:59:23.160 --> 1:59:25.280 study to do. I know you think about that one. 1:59:26.640 --> 1:59:29.880 So concluders. A concluder is an opportunity where you get 1:59:29.920 --> 1:59:31.560 you I don't even have one right now, but I'm 1:59:31.560 --> 1:59:34.080 still gonna invite you to. A concluder is an opportunity 1:59:34.160 --> 1:59:36.680 where like you come in and you're like, man, I 1:59:36.760 --> 1:59:39.800 hope these guys ask you about X, and then we 1:59:39.920 --> 1:59:42.960 never do. So a concluder gives you the opportunity to 1:59:43.040 --> 1:59:46.320 bring up something totally without prompt or it could be 1:59:46.640 --> 1:59:49.000 that you developed a concluder throughout the course of the 1:59:49.040 --> 1:59:51.240 conversation and you keep trying to wedge it in, but 1:59:51.280 --> 1:59:53.040 you can't find a good place to wedge it in. Okay, 1:59:53.160 --> 1:59:55.640 So now without even needing a segue, you can just 1:59:55.720 --> 1:59:58.600 bring up some random thought. Yeah, I think I think 1:59:59.560 --> 2:00:01.440 you know, for for both of you, I think you 2:00:01.480 --> 2:00:03.440 know we all and you hit on it real well. 2:00:03.560 --> 2:00:07.040 Is is how fortunate we are two in Montana to 2:00:07.240 --> 2:00:10.320 have the habitats primarily to support to even have the 2:00:10.360 --> 2:00:13.640 discussion about all these species and and uh, you know 2:00:13.720 --> 2:00:16.600 bison are still on the horizon. Is you know where 2:00:16.600 --> 2:00:18.960 we're going to tolerate them in Montana or not? But 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:21.880 from the most part, Montana has been pretty amazing. Um. 2:00:22.160 --> 2:00:25.000 The one thing I think that and you you two 2:00:25.040 --> 2:00:29.200 are have covered pretty much everything in North America in 2:00:29.320 --> 2:00:32.480 particular that people realize it was Helmand that had such 2:00:32.520 --> 2:00:35.800 a role in protecting and bringing back and and and 2:00:35.960 --> 2:00:39.160 being watch dogs from Mountline Conservation. That's not intuitive for 2:00:39.240 --> 2:00:42.360 most folks, and they do and they still do today. 2:00:42.800 --> 2:00:44.600 And uh, and I guess I would add in the 2:00:44.680 --> 2:00:49.040 South American component, what Chris Tompkins is doing down there 2:00:49.480 --> 2:00:52.880 is off the charts different than anyone else on planet Earth. 2:00:53.040 --> 2:00:57.560 With her own personal wealth. She's doing, in my mind, 2:00:57.600 --> 2:01:00.320 equivalent to what Teddy Roosevelt did when he rated the 2:01:00.360 --> 2:01:03.520 Forest Service and the parks. She's doing it almost to 2:01:03.600 --> 2:01:08.120 that scale and still going strong, with local countries, local 2:01:08.200 --> 2:01:12.320 governments now celebrating and accepting those public lands, because that's 2:01:12.400 --> 2:01:15.360 huge because then people down there, rich or poor, those 2:01:15.440 --> 2:01:17.800 parks are going to be the great equalizers. People get 2:01:17.880 --> 2:01:20.360 married near him, the businesses and the economies are gonna 2:01:20.400 --> 2:01:22.680 thrive around the parks, and you're gonna have South American 2:01:22.760 --> 2:01:25.320 native species come back. And so we tend to be 2:01:25.680 --> 2:01:28.920 We're lucky here in Montana. But some amazing stuff is 2:01:28.960 --> 2:01:31.840 going on in South America with Christian Salcedos and all 2:01:31.880 --> 2:01:35.120 those chapter he's their conservation director, and I really liked 2:01:35.200 --> 2:01:37.680 profiling Christian. So it's if you read the book, I 2:01:37.760 --> 2:01:41.240 hope you enjoy uh some of the challenges they're facing 2:01:41.280 --> 2:01:44.760 there because their landscape is very similar to Montana. I 2:01:44.880 --> 2:01:48.920 kind of call Patagonia Montana on steroids. Yeah, just Dandy's 2:01:48.960 --> 2:01:51.760 are ments. But and the species are goofy from my 2:01:51.880 --> 2:01:56.760 perspective because they're so different from flamingos and flying by 2:01:56.880 --> 2:02:01.120 glaciers and camels, and it's just easy mix of biology 2:02:01.200 --> 2:02:03.200 down there. But that's what makes it kind of magical 2:02:03.240 --> 2:02:06.040 in my mind. And and and the food, the wine, 2:02:06.120 --> 2:02:08.440 everything's good down there, and I can't wait to go 2:02:08.560 --> 2:02:11.640 back there too. But you two have covered I'm impressed 2:02:11.680 --> 2:02:15.080 you've covered most all the real especially the complicated topics. 2:02:15.720 --> 2:02:17.560 So hit us with the name of your book one 2:02:17.600 --> 2:02:20.440 more time. In your name, So, Jim Williams, I'm the 2:02:21.080 --> 2:02:23.280 I'm I've been a while at biologist, my entire career. 2:02:23.320 --> 2:02:26.360 I'm the regional supervisor now for Montana, Fishwife and Parks 2:02:26.440 --> 2:02:28.680 kind of and a career, had a wonderful career. It's 2:02:28.720 --> 2:02:31.600 a unique state. My books called Path of the Puma 2:02:31.960 --> 2:02:34.840 and it half the books Montana Stories and the Northern 2:02:34.920 --> 2:02:38.520 Rockies and the other half Patagonia, Argentina and Chile. And 2:02:38.600 --> 2:02:43.360 puma is another wildlife and parks down there, alright. Where 2:02:43.400 --> 2:02:49.840 should they go buy it? Um? Yeah, of course it's available. No, 2:02:50.600 --> 2:02:53.280 it's available in all bookstores online. You can just go 2:02:53.400 --> 2:02:56.720 to Patagonia the So what's really cool too? Patagonia the 2:02:56.760 --> 2:02:59.920 clothing company actually uh published that and I know they 2:03:00.080 --> 2:03:03.160 be getting involved with backcountry hunters and anglers recently. You 2:03:03.200 --> 2:03:05.720 can get it on their website too, But they didn't 2:03:05.760 --> 2:03:07.840 cut any corners. What I'm so, I'm glad you have. 2:03:07.920 --> 2:03:12.320 Here's my concluder. So and double concluded, Yeah, thank you. 2:03:13.000 --> 2:03:14.920 Is that you know, if you're going to write a book. 2:03:15.040 --> 2:03:17.400 And I've written a lot of science articles and popular 2:03:17.720 --> 2:03:19.920 magazine articles, but you know, I wanted to write one 2:03:19.920 --> 2:03:24.760 good book. Had been very fortunate they Patagonia said, what 2:03:24.840 --> 2:03:27.560 do you need as I want color photos, I want 2:03:27.640 --> 2:03:30.080 maps to geo reference readers. The photographs that book are 2:03:30.080 --> 2:03:32.520 stunning and and if you just read the photos and 2:03:32.600 --> 2:03:34.920 the captions from front the back, you'll learn something for 2:03:35.000 --> 2:03:37.320 those of that don't have any attention to the photos 2:03:37.360 --> 2:03:39.680 of like my kind of my favorite type class of 2:03:39.720 --> 2:03:43.480 photo is like predators eating dead stuff. It's a great 2:03:44.000 --> 2:03:46.640 it's a great flip through on predators eating dead stuff. 2:03:46.760 --> 2:03:49.720 They did it amazing. The same two women that did 2:03:49.760 --> 2:03:52.200 the Patagonia catalogs for twenty years did the thirty years, 2:03:52.240 --> 2:03:54.240 did the photos in the book and worked with me 2:03:54.360 --> 2:03:56.520 and and I and you and the ability to geo 2:03:56.560 --> 2:03:59.240 reference as you read in a map was very important. 2:03:59.680 --> 2:04:02.440 Um and so they had a young couple of maps 2:04:02.560 --> 2:04:05.040 for could create the six maps and it's it's I 2:04:05.160 --> 2:04:06.960 was really proud of it, and they surprised me. And 2:04:07.000 --> 2:04:08.920 I'll show you too here and of course I'm not 2:04:09.040 --> 2:04:10.640 a detailed person. I didn't pick up on it for 2:04:10.640 --> 2:04:13.080 about three weeks. But they embossed a puma print in 2:04:13.120 --> 2:04:16.080 the cover and that cool to scale, yeah, and that 2:04:16.200 --> 2:04:18.120 neat they spread. So it's a real quality book. And 2:04:18.360 --> 2:04:20.080 I'm I'm old fashioned. I like to hold a book 2:04:20.120 --> 2:04:22.880 in my hand still, and it's just feels good. You know. 2:04:22.920 --> 2:04:25.680 I'm pretty proud of it, so I appreciate YouTube, you know, 2:04:25.720 --> 2:04:28.400 allowing me on today to talk about it. Congratulations, no 2:04:28.560 --> 2:04:32.960 small feet, Uh okay, Jim Williams Path of the Puma, 2:04:33.400 --> 2:04:34.160 thank you very much.