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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to Too Much Information, the show

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Speaker 2: that brings you the secret histories and little known fascinating

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Speaker 2: facts and figures behind your favorite TV shows, movies, music,

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Speaker 2: and more. We are your two cogues of head and try.

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Speaker 2: I'm Alex Sigel.

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Speaker 1: Your bums of banality, your punks of pedantry, your old

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Speaker 1: slots of just too much trivia.

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Speaker 2: That's good on anyway, the last one was good.

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Speaker 1: I forgot my name is Jordan, and.

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Speaker 2: Jordan, as you may have suspected from that intro, today

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Speaker 2: we're talking about my favorite Christmas song of all time.

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Speaker 2: An episode dedicated to the dearly departed Shane McGowan, the

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Speaker 2: mastermind behind one of the greatest Irish punk bands bands period,

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Speaker 2: the Friggin' Pogues. Shane McGowan defied just about every odd

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Speaker 2: in the book to live until the relatively ripe age

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Speaker 2: sixty five, and died this November, having cast an enormous

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Speaker 2: shadow in the worlds of Irish and punk music and

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Speaker 2: music in general. Tell me about your relationship with the Pogues,

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Speaker 2: or more generally Irish Irish reship with the Irish.

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Speaker 1: I can see you feeling quite a kinship with the Irish.

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Speaker 1: I know you and I are both of Italian Sicilian heritage,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways I see them as related cultures

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Speaker 1: in that they both surrender to emotions and have a

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Speaker 1: sense of fatalism that I almost find noble in the

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Speaker 1: same way that I find toxic male stoicism noble. There's

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Speaker 1: a certain I know it's probably not healthy for the soul,

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Speaker 1: but for some reason, I can't shake the sense that

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Speaker 1: it's admirable.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I can't shake the sense that it's admirable.

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Speaker 1: There's a reverence towards pain and depression. And was it

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Speaker 1: a Freud who said that the Irish were the only

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Speaker 1: people in pervious.

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Speaker 2: The same pervious to it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I just think that that whole

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Speaker 1: sense extends to their view on self destruction and death,

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Speaker 1: the Irish. And there's a perfect overlap with this song

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Speaker 1: and the performance at Shane McGowan's funeral earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: which hurt. It was so deeply sad but so incredibly joyous.

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Speaker 1: It's the only funeral I've seen where people were literally

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Speaker 1: dancing in the aisles, which says a lot for the

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Speaker 1: Irish and Shane McGowan and this amazing song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was we're talking about first of recording. I

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Speaker 2: was talking about this dance book came out in nineteen sixty,

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Speaker 2: I think from Oh Wow mit R seventy sorry mit

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Speaker 2: Press called Beyond the Melting Pot about the different sociological

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Speaker 2: and cultural similarities and differences, but more about the focusing

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Speaker 2: on the similarities about black people, Puerto Rican people, Jewish people,

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Speaker 2: Italians and the Irish in New York City. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it is fascinating the different overlaps and does focus a

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Speaker 2: lot on the particular as you said, if reverence towards

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Speaker 2: death and sort of combined fatalism and jois de vivra

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Speaker 2: of the Irish and the Italians. So I grew up

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Speaker 2: with a few people of Irish descent my extended family,

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Speaker 2: and we weren't really gathered around the table singing the

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Speaker 2: rare old Mountain Dew. But I did always love Irish

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Speaker 2: music and my first gateway into that was Flogging Molly.

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Speaker 2: Actually the band Flogging Mollie. Well no, because we yeah,

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Speaker 2: drop Kate Murphy's came up. But I was like this,

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Speaker 2: this band sucks. I mean, they don't suck at the

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Speaker 2: risk of angering the Irish, although their best song is

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Speaker 2: a Woody guthriecover. Yeah they're punk is too dumb and

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Speaker 2: their Irish is too I'm not going there. I was

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Speaker 2: going to say, I was going to say racist, because

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of skinheads that love the drop Kick Murphy's.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, No, Flogging Mollie takes the whole traditional Irish

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Speaker 2: thing like much further than drop Y Murphys, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: probably the biggest knock against them is that they are

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Speaker 2: kind of just like a tighter Pogues. The best thing

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Speaker 2: about that band was that the lead singer had been

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Speaker 2: in two different metal bands before he formed Flogging Molly,

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Speaker 2: with guys from Motorhead and Crocus, like bigger thrash bands,

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Speaker 2: and he writes all his lyrics on a typewriter from

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixteen, which is the year of the Easter Uprising

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Speaker 2: in Dublin. But then going backwards from them, I discovered

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Speaker 2: the Pogues and they've just always been at the top

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Speaker 2: of the heat for me, not just because of Shane's

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Speaker 2: incredible personal magnetism and ludicrousness, but you know, the guys

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Speaker 2: hell songwriter man, I mean, he just has this incredibly

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Speaker 2: deft hand at writing these little thumbnail character sketches that

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Speaker 2: will just level you. And even though he threatened to

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Speaker 2: become one of them at many many points, I'm imagining

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Speaker 2: the dissolute tale of two New York drugs bickering away

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Speaker 2: their Christmas. Isn't the sort of tune that you enjoy

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Speaker 2: over a dog. But am I wrong?

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Speaker 1: You're not wrong? I mean, I thought it was very

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Speaker 1: telling that one of the many people who pay their

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Speaker 1: tribute to Shane McGaw and on social media was Bruce Springsteen,

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Speaker 1: who a visit recently. And I see a lot of

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Speaker 1: similarities between their ability to, as you say, paint these

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Speaker 1: beautiful little portraits, these little capsule portraits of these characters,

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Speaker 1: usually characters who are trying to hold on to hope

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Speaker 1: in a fairly hopeless situation. I have to say I

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Speaker 1: don't know a lot of the poge's music, unfortunately, which

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Speaker 1: is probably good for me because now I have a

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Speaker 1: lot to explore. But what I do know of it

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Speaker 1: that seems to be a major through line, and it's

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Speaker 1: something you see a lot in Bruce too, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's why it probably hits a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in time trouble can relate to

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Speaker 1: those characters. Yeah, it's a beautiful song. I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: that was your favorite Christmas song. I can why may

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Speaker 1: I ask? I mean that's not no, no, no, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I'm not challenging you on it. I'm curious though.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like the only Christmas song other than

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Speaker 2: maybe like the original version of Have Yourself with Merry

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Speaker 2: Little Christmas, which is so damn sad.

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Speaker 1: With the post apocalyptic verse about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it may be our last have yourself merri

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Speaker 2: litt Christmas. It may be our last. Yeah, It's one

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Speaker 2: of the only Christmas songs that gets it. There's such

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Speaker 2: a gloss over, with the exception of your really thuddingly

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Speaker 2: on the nose stuff like John Lennon. I think that

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Speaker 2: they are the genre of Christmas music glosses over the

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Speaker 2: pain of the holiday for so many people. And I

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Speaker 2: like the fact that there are Christmas songs that, instead

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Speaker 2: of being neutral on it, let one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: degrees back and make it thoroughly more depressing, like rather

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Speaker 2: than saying, well, you know, this is hard for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, it just swings one hundred eighty degrees

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Speaker 2: around to get ready to sob. Another great one is

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Speaker 2: Christmas Card from a Hooker in Minneapolis by Tom Waits.

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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, you and I are so far around

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Speaker 1: the circle that we actually are very close to each other,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But we approach things a

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Speaker 1: different way. And everyone knows who listens to the show

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Speaker 1: off And I'm a gigantic Beatles fan, and it's probably

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Speaker 1: unhealthy how much I view the world through, you know,

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Speaker 1: through a Beatle lens. But there's a certain dichotomy in

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Speaker 1: people that I've noticed. You could call it optimists and pessimists,

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Speaker 1: but I call it Lennon and McCartney, and it's probably

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Speaker 1: best illustrated through their Christmas songs. You've got John Lennon's

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Speaker 1: Happy Christmas War Is Over, basically indicting listeners for not

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Speaker 1: doing anything to help and war and make the world

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Speaker 1: a better place. And then you've got Paul's Wonderful Christmas Time,

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Speaker 1: which is the worst song I deep in the tale.

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Speaker 1: I like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta plug in the TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's Christmas Day, people, dye go you yourself, It's

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Speaker 1: Christmas time. Get out the wine. Uncle Jim's in his

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Speaker 1: favorite jumper.

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Speaker 2: Uncle John's in his favorite jumper.

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Speaker 1: But Yeah, something I find interesting about Lennon McCartney is

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Speaker 1: that they both endured an incredible tragedy when they were young.

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Speaker 1: Their mothers died when they were teenagers, and it made

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Speaker 1: them both into the people they became. John very wounded

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Speaker 1: and very angry, and I think his music connects with

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Speaker 1: people for that reason because he was that vulnerable in

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Speaker 1: that and so in pain. People see their own pain

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Speaker 1: in that. And also I think there's people listening who,

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Speaker 1: you know, almost want to comfort him in a way.

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Speaker 1: And then there's someone like Paul, who is, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: went through that, I made it through, I survived, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to celebrate all the little things in life

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Speaker 1: now because I know how bad it can be, and

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Speaker 1: it makes all the good things, even if they see

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Speaker 1: men's consequential so much more sweet. And that's I mean again,

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Speaker 1: you can call that pessimism and optimism, you can call

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Speaker 1: it many number of different things. I think you have

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Speaker 1: a touch of the John Lennon. I think I have

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Speaker 1: a touch of the of the of the Paul in

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Speaker 1: that sense. I just think it's interesting how such a

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Speaker 1: similar trauma at an early age made those two men

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Speaker 1: such opposite people, and I think that that's probably true

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people, how they respond to pain

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Speaker 1: and grief, and it's something that comes out around Christmas time.

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Speaker 2: And the great thing about the Irish is that you

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Speaker 2: don't need two of them to get that.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, to answer your question, I prefer the

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Speaker 1: Paul McCartney, the Beach Boys, the Phil Spector Christmas album

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Speaker 1: types of there's a whole cottage industry of like really

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Speaker 1: sad emotionally Lewde so they're just so sad. There's okay,

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Speaker 1: there's a list. I was trying to remember some of them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the one that immediately comes to mind other

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Speaker 1: than fairy Tale of New York is Christmas Shoes. I

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Speaker 1: think it's colled.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know Christmas shoes. Is it

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Speaker 2: like a for sale Christmas shoes never used?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like something about I'm trying to remember.

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Speaker 2: There's like, I mean, the first thing that comes up

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Speaker 2: is the it's the TV movie summary starting Rob Lowe.

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Speaker 2: It's the first thing that comes up. A young boy

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Speaker 2: tries to get a pair of Christmas shoes for his dying.

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Speaker 1: Mother because she's going to meet Jesus that night. That's right,

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Speaker 1: She's going to die that she wants Mama to look

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Speaker 1: good for Jesus that night. So that's that's devastating. There's

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gaye's I Want to come Home for Christmas, which

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Speaker 1: is from the point of view of a prisoner of war.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because his brother, which inspired what's going on?

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Speaker 1: I'll be going for Christmas? What you mentioned? Do they

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Speaker 1: know it's Christmas Time? By band Aid? Is super depressing?

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Speaker 1: What else we got? What else we got? The Everly

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Speaker 1: Brothers Christmas Eve can kill You? Do you know the song?

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Speaker 2: No? I don't, but that sounds incredible.

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Speaker 1: It's a hitchhiker warning about freezing to death while looking

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Speaker 1: for a ride on Christmas Eve.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, I know this is good. This is good fodder

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Speaker 2: for for my playlist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that King Cole's the Little Boy that Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus forgot. Ah. Let's see what else we got. There's

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Speaker 1: Amy Man's I was thinking I could clean up for Christmas.

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Speaker 1: H Dwight Yoakum has a song called Santa Can't Stay

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Speaker 1: where kids are seeing their drunk father dressed to Santa,

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Speaker 1: fighting with their mom and her new boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: But that's country music. That doesn't count. They're already like

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Speaker 2: so just predisposed to Maudlin Horse.

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Speaker 1: I could see you looking John Prin's Christmas in Prison.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean anything by John Pran. I'm sold. You

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Speaker 2: just had to say that Prince Christmas. Yes, because of

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Speaker 2: the because of the very deft Shane McGowan esque touch,

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Speaker 2: of the fact that the guy gets tanked on banana

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Speaker 2: Dakery's that's so Prince, It's so amazing, because that it

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Speaker 2: was her favorite drink, right so he yes? Yeah, oh

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Speaker 2: so good. All right, well, folks add all those to

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Speaker 2: your playlists. Why you listen to us talk about fairy

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Speaker 2: Telle New York for however long from the song's origins,

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Speaker 2: is a duet between a soon to be departed member

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Speaker 2: of the Pogues to the actually literally Christmas in July

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Speaker 2: recording session of the quasi mysterious death of Kirsty McCole.

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Speaker 2: He is everything you didn't know about the Pogues and

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Speaker 2: Kirsty mccole's fairy Tale of New York. Wow. Sadly we

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Speaker 2: don't have time to get into the biographies of every

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Speaker 2: single Pogues member, but in honor of Shane. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: do a quick thumbnail sketch of him. McGowan was fittingly

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Speaker 2: born on Christmas Day in nineteen fifty seven, although it

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Speaker 2: is a massive irony that one of the greatest Irish

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Speaker 2: songwriters of all time was actually born in Kent, in

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Speaker 2: English while his parents were English of cities. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: the other way. It could be better if it was

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Speaker 2: one of those like stokewell upon Trentain's places.

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Speaker 1: Beings upon toast, his parents were their.

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Speaker 2: Visiting relatives, and and Shane just had the poor luck

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Speaker 2: to be born in England, the place he despised all

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Speaker 2: his adult life. Was it?

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Speaker 1: Churchill born in America in a similar reason, like his

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Speaker 1: mom happened to be traveling and was born.

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Speaker 2: For all my like middle aged man tendencies like World

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Speaker 2: War two historianism is not one of them. I don't

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Speaker 2: know a single damn thing about Winston Churchill other than

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Speaker 2: his grossness in terms of like cigar and alcohol intake.

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Speaker 1: And so that is incorrect. Yeah, I am incurred.

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Speaker 2: Oh he wasn't born in Okay, Well McGowan, how dare

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Speaker 2: you bring up Winston Churchill episode of Irish music?

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Speaker 1: You you do later? Yeah, you're right an album after

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Speaker 1: it was quotes that's true.

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Speaker 2: That's true, an apocryphal quote anyway. McGowan subsequently spent his

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Speaker 2: early childhood in Tipperary, Ireland, where he was it was

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Speaker 2: the drinking two bottles of guinness each night to help

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Speaker 2: him sleep. By the time he was five or six

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Speaker 2: years Jesus, his parents moved the family back to England

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Speaker 2: when he was six, and he was apparently a tremendously

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Speaker 2: smart kid, at least as far as literature was concerned.

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Speaker 2: His dad was a very literate man and was talking

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Speaker 2: about how Shane was reading like James Joyce and Dostoyevsky

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Speaker 2: by the time that he was eleven. And I still

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Speaker 2: haven't made it for any Dostoyevsky. I'll let you know

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Speaker 2: if I do, maybe in the new year. But he

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Speaker 2: won a literature scholarship to this very prestigious school called

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Speaker 2: the Westminster School, and he was expelled during his second

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Speaker 2: year for possession of drugs at the age of seventeen.

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Speaker 2: He was institutionalized for six months in a psychiatric hospital

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Speaker 2: and then in short order he found himself working at

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Speaker 2: a record shop in London during the initial early wave

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Speaker 2: of the UK punk He wrote a fanzine, and much

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Speaker 2: like Forrest Gump, you can pick out Shane mcowan in

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Speaker 2: a lot of like historical photos from the time. He's

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Speaker 2: like in the front row at clash gigs or something,

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Speaker 2: and the most famous one is there was coverage of

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Speaker 2: a Clash show in nineteen seventy six where the basis

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Speaker 2: of another of a soon to be basis of another

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Speaker 2: punk band named Jane Crockford bit him in the ear

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Speaker 2: or on the ear, and this picture of McGowan all

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Speaker 2: bloody made the papers the next day with the headline

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Speaker 2: cannibalism at Clash gig. And probably the only bad thing

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Speaker 2: that Sweet Shane ever did in his life was form

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Speaker 2: a band called the Nipple Erectors. Just the worst band

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Speaker 2: choice all that does they ask you came.

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Speaker 1: Up with that.

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Speaker 2: It's awful. It was shortened to the Nips. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of like pub rock. It's a little more like rhythm

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Speaker 2: and blues influence than than post Swart. Yes exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'll never talk about that again. Like so many bands

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Speaker 2: of their the Pokes came together via the Ramones. Specifically

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Speaker 2: McGowan met Peter Spider Stacy who played tin whistle, and

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Speaker 2: also everyone of the popes sang. So it's like they're

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Speaker 2: all kind of pro vocalists.

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Speaker 1: Tin whistle.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, dude, tin whistles like it's like lead guitar

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Speaker 2: in Irish music.

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Speaker 1: You know, for all my chuckle.

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Speaker 2: No, it's so fast. Like the stuff that they have

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Speaker 2: to play on that little tiny thing size of a

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Speaker 2: drinking straw is crazy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure it takes skill, but still I

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Speaker 1: play the tin whistle.

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Speaker 2: Like buddy, don't go from I'm going off. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was gonna say, don't go home to Boston, just smirching

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Speaker 2: the tin whistle. So they he met Spider Stacy Shane

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Speaker 2: in the bathroom at a Ramones gig in London in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: Famous meetings and bathrooms.

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Speaker 2: Let's right, yeah, man, that's a good one.

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gay and Barry Gordy. I think I think Marv

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Speaker 1: Gaelic approached them in the toilet.

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Speaker 2: We don't have time to keep pitching listicals. You have

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Speaker 2: a disease good.

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Speaker 1: And I only have the conference from the twelve thirty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So they the two of them formed an ad hoc

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Speaker 2: band with the excellent name the Millwall Chainsaws, with a

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Speaker 2: banjo player named Jem Finer, and then when the Nips

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Speaker 2: broke up, McCowan brought that band's guitarist James Fearnley into

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Speaker 2: the Pogues as an accordionist. By nineteen eighty two, the

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Speaker 2: band's core lineup came together with bassist Kate O'Riordan and

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Speaker 2: drummer al Andrew Rankin. The band's name comes from an

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Speaker 2: anglicization of the Gaelic phrase or kiss my ass, poke

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Speaker 2: mahoney of pokee mahone. I think I gave it the

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Speaker 2: Italian pronunciation its spider. Stacy read in James Joyce's spinningen's weight,

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Speaker 2: and they pluralized the first word after complaints came up

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Speaker 2: around their early coverage from Gaelic speakers who recognized the

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Speaker 2: profanity of that name.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be

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Speaker 1: right back with more too much information in just a moment.

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Speaker 1: The Poets hit the London club scene hard and made

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Speaker 1: a name for themselves by infusing traditional Irish music with

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Speaker 1: the intensity of punk. One early TV appearance, for instance,

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Speaker 1: featured Stacy hitting himself on the head with the drink

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Speaker 1: tray as quote percussion. They opened for the Clash on

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Speaker 1: a tour in nineteen eighty four, and released their debut,

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Speaker 1: Red Roses for Me on the important early punk label

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Speaker 1: Stiff Records that same year, which Elvis Costello has an

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Speaker 1: association with. Wasn't there there was like a great T

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Speaker 1: shirt or slogan.

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Speaker 2: If it ain't Stiff, it ain't worth or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yes, yes yes. The Poges follow up nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five's Rum Sodomy and the Lash Is. As you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, an apocryphal quote from Winston Churchill about the

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Speaker 1: traditions of the British Navy really brought them into their

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Speaker 1: own as songwriters. So the seeds of the dissolution of

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Speaker 1: their core line up when producer Elvis Costello married Bassis

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Speaker 1: Kate Riordan and left the band. Another blow was dealt

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty seven when Stiff Records folded, which brings

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Speaker 1: us up to fairy Tale. It's strange to be this

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Speaker 1: all occurred, like maybe, I say, a solid ten years

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Speaker 1: after I thought it would, because I always think of

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Speaker 1: Stiff Records as being like a late seventies thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean they lived on until again around

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Speaker 2: that until that year, mostly anchored.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's the accounting for the record labels was so crazy

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Speaker 2: back then because they would just lose bleed money until

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Speaker 2: one person had like a big hit, and then they

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Speaker 2: would just limp off for another year. But the pogues

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Speaker 2: are really I mean, I want to highlight how important

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Speaker 2: it was for sort of a national identity of the

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Speaker 2: Irish to have the folks hit when they did, because

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Speaker 2: there's a big thing in Ireland about people leaving, right Shane,

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Speaker 2: at what point has quote about like in Ireland you're

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Speaker 2: either dead or you're in America or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and oh wow. And in the around the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously the UK was going through this horrible wave of

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Speaker 2: economic downturn and there were a lot of Irish people,

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Speaker 2: both in Britain and elsewhere who were affected by this,

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Speaker 2: and it was so important for not just them but

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Speaker 2: the British to see a band that was defiantly and

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Speaker 2: very proudly Irish bringing the kind of punk energy and

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Speaker 2: fatality into traditional Irish music, you know, I mean, the

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Speaker 2: biggest bands of the early UK Hunk Guard, so damn British.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like God Saved the Queen, Sex Pistols and

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Speaker 2: the Clash, they're very British bands. I mean, even though

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Speaker 2: the clash brought into a lot of different world music

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Speaker 2: influences and stuff, but you know, to have a band

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Speaker 2: like the Pogues out there with a named after as

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Speaker 2: in Gaelic that means kiss my ass, that must have

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Speaker 2: been so powerful for Irish people in and out of

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Speaker 2: the diaspora who were struggling with their identity in the

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Speaker 2: midst of this economic counter anyway, so there are competing

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Speaker 2: accounts of how Fairytale got written. Jane McGowan has suggested

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Speaker 2: that Elvis Costello made a bet with him that he

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to write Christmas duet to sing with

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Speaker 2: Kato Jordan, while Aquardian player James Fearley claimed that their

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Speaker 2: manager Frank Murray suggested that they cover the band's nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy seven song Christmas Must Be Tonight, which is a

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Speaker 2: dog song.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's on blows.

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Speaker 2: And then the worst one is have you heard I

387
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Speaker 2: sent you the Robbie Robertson one from Scrooge right where

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Speaker 2: he's doing it. He re recorded it himself in this

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Speaker 2: like Quasi Dylan nasally Gravelly Wheeze with just the worst

390
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Speaker 2: eighties production ever anyway, horrible song. It was an awful song.

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Speaker 1: Don't take our word for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Accordion player James Spearley writes in his memoir Here

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Speaker 2: Comes Everybody, the Story of the Pogues. We probably said

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Speaker 2: that we'll do our own. This is mind you in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, when conversations about a poke's Christmas song started,

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Speaker 2: because Fairytale ultimately took two years to write and record,

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Speaker 2: it fits and starts.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I just had a awful bit in my head

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Speaker 1: of Shane, responding to Elvis Costella's bet to write a

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Speaker 1: Christmas du it with a song to the tune of Baby.

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Speaker 1: It's called Outside about Northern Ireland. I really can't stay baby.

402
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Speaker 1: There's bombs outside, probably just for you. A badge of

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Speaker 1: player Jim Finer's version is that the song started as

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Speaker 1: a more distinctly maritime feeling, real as in the traditional

405
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Speaker 1: Irish dance, and not the fishing device about a sailor

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Speaker 1: missing his wife at Christmas. His wife, Jim Finder's wife,

407
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Speaker 1: Marcia Farquhar, decided it was corny, and Finer said, fine,

408
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Speaker 1: you give me an eye and I'll write a new song.

409
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Speaker 1: He gave a more on the nose reading of her

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Speaker 1: reaction to the outlet The Irish Music Daily. She said

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Speaker 1: her main point was that it was sentimental twaddle Toddle

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Speaker 1: street word.

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Speaker 2: I love twaddle.

414
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So we redrafted the song from her basic plot

415
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: line of quote a couple falling on hard times and

416
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Speaker 1: coming eventually to some redemption. Although supposedly the song is

417
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Speaker 1: quote a true story of some mutual friends living in

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Speaker 1: New York. Do you not know who that could possibly be?

419
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Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean perhaps wisely they never yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Shane McGowan took Finer song and honed in on

421
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Speaker 1: the dialogue elements. Okate or Reardon's recollection was that McGowan

422
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Speaker 1: wanted to sing it as a duet with a female

423
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Speaker 1: studio engineer. Shane was courting her, Oriardon said in March

424
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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, talking to the Irish Broadcasting Company RT.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know it's the full name is in Gaelic,

426
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Speaker 2: which is not going to happen, Yeah, to try to pronounce.

427
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Speaker 1: When Shane's courtship with the few email studio engineer failed

428
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Speaker 1: to pan out, Jim Finer suggested that Kato Riardon sing it.

429
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Speaker 1: She would later recall that she was trying to sing

430
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Speaker 1: it like ethel Merman, which, needless to say, uh, didn't

431
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Speaker 1: really fit the tambo and tone of the song. Then,

432
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 1: of course she left the band to be with Elvis Costello,

433
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: and their relationship lasted sixteen years, though she maintains they

434
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: were never formally married. With the engineer and Kato Reardon

435
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: out of the picture, the band pursued Chrissy Hind, who'd

436
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: been part of the initial punk wave in London and

437
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: was currently riding high as the lead singer of the Pretenders.

438
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: That would have been wild if she duetit on Fairtale

439
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: in New York.

440
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure she could have summoned the the irishness.

441
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, she's from Cleveland, right, Yeah, are.

442
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: The Irish in Cleveland?

443
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: They have to be, you know, the Christy Hine after

444
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: I think it was after David Bowie made his American

445
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: debut in Cleveland, which was, you know, the capitol of

446
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: rock and roll in America. It's where the rock where

447
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: a Hall of Fame is and where Alan Freed did

448
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: his moondog shows or whatever they were. Christy Hines somehow

449
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: met him at the stage door and she and her

450
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: friends took him out to like a diner late at

451
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: night After.

452
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, in the Bowie episode, one of the

453
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 2: Bowie episodes.

454
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's so cute.

455
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean, she's she's obviously incredible,

456
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: and at this point she was riding high Pretenders. But yeah,

457
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 2: I think I think because she's more I can't imagine, well,

458
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: I think because she's more associated with the kind of

459
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: new wave stuff to forget that she was like, you know,

460
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: on the ground floor of punk.

461
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: You know, I think I really realized that.

462
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was living. I think she was living in

463
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 2: London as early as.

464
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: I think she was there early, but I guess I'm

465
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: not familiar with super early Pretenders.

466
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: Or Yeah, she formed the Pretenders in seventy eight, so wow,

467
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: a year or maybe after punk broke in the UK.

468
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: She moved to London in seventy three, oh damn. And

469
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: then she worked actually at theol mclary and Pathan Westbix store. Yeah.

470
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always kind of thought of the Pretender's as

471
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: like the British blondie. Yeah, more of a new way

472
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: of than punk, even though they started in the punk era.

473
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: That's really interesting.

474
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: It's really fascinating how in mess she was with that scene.

475
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: I mean, she she knew the sex Pistols and supposedly

476
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: wanted to it. Was involved in like a marriage scheme

477
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 2: to get her green card with members of the Sex Pistols.

478
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: She auditioned for a band called that would become this

479
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 2: British punk band nine ninety nine, she tried to start

480
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 2: a group with Dick Jones from The Clash. You know,

481
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: she was in the band that went on to become

482
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: The Damned Like. She's really very much like a kind

483
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: of Forrest Gump figure in that she had all these

484
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: connections to these first wave British punk bands and then

485
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: went on to have her own incredible band. You know,

486
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: that's so cool.

487
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: I need to know more about her. I don't know

488
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: as much as I should, but she was not a

489
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: good fit for fairy Tale of New York. Ultimately, serendipity

490
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: and nepotism collided in the form of singer Kirsty McColl,

491
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: who was married to veteran British producer Steve Lilly White

492
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: and was also managed by the Pogues manager who you

493
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: just wrote in Capitol letters as the Pogues.

494
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: Manager that was air. His name was Frank Murray. Yeah,

495
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: Kirsty McColl was fascinating and she has a big blind

496
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: spot for me admittedly, but her life is fairly unique.

497
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: She was born to the British folk singer You and Nicole,

498
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: who was one of the prime movers and shakers of

499
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 2: the sixties, spoke Boom not just as a writer but

500
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: as an archivist collector of traditional English, Irish and Scottish ballads.

501
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: For instance, you know the version of Scarboroughffair that Simon

502
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: and Garfunkle got famous for came from his collection. I mean.

503
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: He also wrote First Time I Ever Saw Your Face,

504
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: which were flash she turned into a huge hit, and

505
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 2: he also wrote Dirty Old Town, which was covered by

506
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: the Pogues. Who was also an ardent communist and socialist

507
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: and in his last published interview noted that he'd left

508
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: the Communist Party because it was insufficiently communist, or the

509
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: Soviet Union had become insufficiently communist in his eyes, and

510
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: he caused a scandal when Pete Seeger's half sister Peggy

511
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: went over to the UK to help transcribe stuff for

512
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: the Alan Lomacks Folk Song Archive, and You and Nicole

513
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 2: fell in love with her, and despite being twenty years

514
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 2: older at the time they got together, and also he

515
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: was still married to Kirsty's mother, so Checkered passed for him,

516
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: and this obviously impacted Kirsty's worldview and a lot of

517
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: her writing. Mark Nevin, who wrote and performed with Nicole

518
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: in the late eighties and early nineties, told The Guardian,

519
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: if you took most songwriters, put all their lyrics into

520
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: a computer and pressed equals, you'd get two lines that

521
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: sum up everything they'd written in a nutshell. Kirsty's would

522
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: be all blokes are gonna lie, cheat and let you down.

523
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: Adding to this was the fact that her father, who

524
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: was an ardent folk musician and comi, hated pop music,

525
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: which was the route that she kind of went down.

526
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: Billy Bragg, who Kirsty recorded a famous cover of his

527
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: song A New England, said her dad was very scornful

528
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: of pop music. He really didn't like it at all,

529
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: not just her doing it, but anyone doing it. So

530
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 2: in spite or perhaps because of this parental disapproval, some

531
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 2: of Nicole's early experiences were in punk bands in London

532
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: with names like Drug Addicts with an X Yeah It's

533
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: pretty good. Stiff Records caught one of their early shows

534
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: and hilariously declined to sign the band but picked up Kirsty.

535
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: But you know, she just seemed to be struck by

536
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: bad luck and through most of her career. A distributor

537
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: strike prevented copies of her first single from getting into

538
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: record stores, and she also had powerful cases of stage

539
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: fright that prevented her from being as heavy a live

540
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: performers a lot of other people. She had a number

541
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: fourteen UK hit off her debut album on Paulador. I

542
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: think that was the one that is called There's a

543
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: Bloke down at the chip Shop thinks He's Elvis or

544
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: something like that, but the label dropped her just as

545
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: she was finishing her second album for them, so she

546
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: went back to Stiff Records and her brag cover a

547
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: New England with extra verses that Billy Bragg wrote just

548
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: for her and that he now performs when he does

549
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: the song in her honor. That was a number seven

550
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: hit in the UK.

551
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: In the United States, Kissy McCole achieves success when Tracy

552
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: Olman recorded her song they Don't Know, which reached number

553
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: eight on the US Hot one hundred and April nineteen

554
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: eighty four and number two in the UK. I love

555
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: this song. Do you know the song?

556
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: No? I don't.

557
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, it sounds like I have to say,

558
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: I don't know Churiosy's version if she has one, but

559
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: Tracy Ullman version. It sounds almost like a like a

560
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: Supreme song or a Cherelle song or something. It's so

561
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: it's this wall of sound production. And the video features

562
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: my beloved Paul McCartney in it, because Tracy Allman appeared

563
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: in Paul's movie is sort of ill fated screenwriting debut,

564
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: give my regards to The broad Street, which no one liked,

565
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: so he returned the favor and appeared in her music video,

566
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: which I think is really cute. But yeah, check out

567
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: that song.

568
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: It's great.

569
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: It's really catchy.

570
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: McCole is on the track, singing which I didn't realize,

571
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: singing notes that Tracy couldn't hit. But this became something

572
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: of an unfortunate lot for her when Stiff Records went

573
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: bankrupt in nineteen eighty six and no one picked up

574
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: her contract, leaving her unable to record under her own name.

575
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: Why the music industry, the music industry.

576
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: What's the hunter? S? Thompson quot out the industry?

577
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: Khallow cruel and shallow trench where trashs get rich and

578
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.

579
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: Wow, God, all that bad luck and then the way

580
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: she died, which we'll talk about later, but yeah, what

581
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 1: a tragic figure.

582
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh.

583
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: By the time Fair Tale of New York became a hit,

584
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: Christy mccoley contributed backing vocals for The Smiths, Simple Minds,

585
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: The Rolling Stones, Robert Plant, Talking Heads, Big Country, and

586
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: Anni fring Lingenstad of Abba presumably just to live because

587
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: she couldn't record under her own name. I'm guessing.

588
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a session in vocalist.

589
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: That's a hell of a lineup. And also because she

590
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: was married to producer Steve lily White. She even set

591
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: the track sequence on You Two's The Joshua Tree, which

592
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: lily White produced.

593
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: I love that. She was just like, you know, here's

594
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: how this should be ordered. Yeah.

595
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: All that work contributed to mcole's strengths as a vocalist.

596
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: She supposedly had perfect pitch and learn the vocal harmonies

597
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: to The Beach Boys Good Vibrations when she was just

598
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: seven years old, and that became one of her trademark

599
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: party tricks. She would sing like a keyboard. Lily White

600
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: told The Guardian of her layering technique. She sang without vibrato,

601
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: and when you don't have vibrato, you have this wonderful

602
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: glassy sound, which is how you can get that Beach

603
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: Boys thing. That's incredible. That means arguably the most complex

604
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: song the Beach Boys ever did in the seven year

605
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: old parts depart those harmonies which god knows how many

606
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: double tracks and triple tracks. Wow, Billy brad recalled. She

607
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: telled the engineer where to put the mics, and she'd

608
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: tell the producer what she was going to do.

609
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: Next.

610
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: She did some amazing thing where she'd do a take,

611
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 1: then go round into a different position and do another

612
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: take to layer up this amazing sound. Then that's all,

613
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: Let's go to the pub.

614
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she's such a blind spot for me. I

615
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: really over a deep dive after during this episode. But

616
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: so anyway, as I mentioned, Christa McCall Steve lily White

617
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: were married and she was being managed by the Pokes

618
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: manager Frank Murray. One weekend they took a stab at

619
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: doing fairy Tale with her singing the female lines. Took

620
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: the whole weekend. They really worked on it, especially at

621
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: the phrasing of the song, which is already difficult because

622
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: of just the way that it's written at scansion and

623
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 2: so forth, but they were made considerably harder by Shane

624
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: McGowan's delivery, which is so back on the beat as

625
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: to almost be unusable. And then they sent it off

626
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: to the band.

627
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: The band had already attempted Fairytale sessions in nineteen eighty six,

628
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: during which McGowan was attempting to craft songs out of

629
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: his love for Frank Sinatra and Judy Garland. I love

630
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: when these punk guys have a soft spot for the

631
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 1: old timers, didn't. I mean, it's like the sex pistol's

632
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: doing my way.

633
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

634
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: And Jim Morrison also wanted to sound like Frank Sinatra

635
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: on the Bridge to Touch Me. I love that. I

636
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: guess calling Jim Morrison a punk will probably mean that

637
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: I'm banished for me punk.

638
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: It was probably it was probably the most he was. Yeah,

639
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 2: he's probably the most punk out of all those. Laurel

640
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: Canyon Ssya. I'm holding I'm holding on to that. I'm

641
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: holding on to that theory.

642
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: We're gonna, We're gonna do it. We're gonna make a

643
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: show out of that.

644
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: I told my parents about that the other night. My

645
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: dad was like he compared it to cuban on. I

646
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, there's a there's an instagram I can

647
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: I follow that. Their Their slogan is loyal to the foil,

648
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: as in tinfoil hats I am.

649
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: For those of you have no idea what we're talking about,

650
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: this is it's just its third appearance in the as

651
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: many weeks on.

652
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: The Yeah, it keeps coming up.

653
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Dave McGowan, a h the late Dave McGowan, a

654
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: journalist who I don't mind saying trafficked and conspiracy theory is,

655
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: wrote a very compelling and interesting book called Strange Scenes

656
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: in the Canyon about his theory that the Laurel Canyon

657
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: music scene was a psy op to basically undermined uh

658
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: meaningful change in radicalism in America. Interesting stuff, m and

659
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: all true. Sorry I didn't realize this. This makes me

660
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: love this song so much more. Shan mcgallan had never

661
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: been to New York when he wrote the lyrics to

662
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: this song. Yeah band had taken a copy of Sergio

663
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: Leoni's epic Once Upon a Time in America on tour

664
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: with them in nineteen eighty five, which influenced the lyrics.

665
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: The majority of the words had been written while McGowan

666
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: was recovering from double pneumonia in Sweden during a late

667
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five Scandinavian tour, and he later told the BBC,

668
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: you get a lot of delirium and stuff, so I

669
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: got quite a few good images out of that. That

670
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: makes so much sense.

671
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

672
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: He would also say, at one point of the writing,

673
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 1: I sat down, opened the sherry, got the peanuts out

674
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: and pretended it was Christmas the peanuts. Is that a

675
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: Christmas thing? Is an Irish Christmas thing? Or is that

676
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: a bar?

677
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 2: He was trying to get in the mood of being

678
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: at a bar of barqetots or something, and McGowan would

679
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: later tell The Guardian every night I used to have

680
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: another batch nailing the lyrics, but I knew they weren't right.

681
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: It is far the most complicated song that I've ever

682
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: been involved in writing and performing. The beauty of it

683
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: is that it sounds really simple, And he would add

684
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: I identified with the man because I was a hustler,

685
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: and I identified with the woman because I was a

686
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: heavy drinker and a singer. I have been in hospitals

687
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: on morphine drips, and I have been in drug tanks

688
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 2: on Christmas Eve. Jem Feiner would tell the Guardian, I

689
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: don't think the band was capable of playing the song

690
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 2: as it needed to be played at that point. Shane

691
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: and I batted arrangements around for ages, and we periodically

692
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: try and record it. He's a tireless and meticulous editor,

693
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: so at the first go round, a practically minded Elvis

694
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 2: Costello suggested that the band just called the song Christmas

695
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 2: Day in the Drunk Tank, which McGowan hilariously also pointed

696
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: out would limit the singles chances of success.

697
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: So it's just such a great title though, it's so.

698
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: Good it is. Yeah, so according player Jim Finer or

699
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: arew anyway, jem Feiner was reading JP don Levy's nineteen

700
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: seventy three novel fairy Tale of New York, concerning a

701
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 2: grieving Irish Americans return home from Ireland to Manhattan, and

702
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: McGowan actually went to him in person to ask if

703
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: they could borrow the title. And I keep seeing this

704
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 2: quote circulated on your lower tier trivia aggregation sites that

705
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: suggests Don Levy was gonna he said something like I

706
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: could have sued the pose, but I, you know, shame

707
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 2: as a friend, so I decided not to. I was

708
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: never able to verify it. And also all the places

709
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: that aggregated that attributed it to the garbage paper, the

710
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: Daily Mail. So I don't really I'm inclining. But if

711
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: you see that out there, this wasn't me. Yeah, I'm

712
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: not giving it any more Oxygen. Also, in early nineteen

713
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: eighty six, the band actually made it to New York,

714
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: which McGowan cheerfully enthused was even more like New York

715
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: than the movies. It's so yeah, it's very sweet, just

716
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: like a Kidney Candy story. The funniest thing about One

717
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: of the funniest things about this song to me is

718
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: that the chorus the boys in the NYPD choir were

719
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 2: singing Galway Bay. That is false. Galway Bay is a

720
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: beloved Irish American tune that enemy of the pod Bing

721
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: Crosby had a hit Brick in nineteen forty eight. But

722
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 2: the NYPD doesn't actually have a choir. The closest thing

723
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: that they have is a pipe and drum group which

724
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: plays at funerals and marches and parades and such, and

725
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 2: They would later appear in the music video for Fairytale

726
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: of New York, but they were miming and mouthing the

727
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: words to the Mickey mouse Club song, the theme song

728
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: to the Mickey mouse Club because it was the only

729
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: song that they all knew. They went, okay, do you

730
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 2: guys know Galway Bay? And they all the pipers and

731
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: drummers and stuff are like no, They're like, do you

732
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: know Danny Boy? You all know Danny Boy? And they're

733
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: like no. They're like, all right, what song do you

734
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: all know the words to? And they're like the Mickey

735
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: mouse Club that was arrived at So they sang that

736
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: during the record or filming, and then it was slowed

737
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: down and playback to actually match the tempo of the

738
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: song and in the video to actually match the tempos.

739
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: There was a great bit. The New York Times caught

740
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: up with the one of the guys who was in

741
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: there this year and interviewed him about that, and he said,

742
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: when they met the band for the first time, Shane

743
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 2: McGowan went up to the conductor or the leader who

744
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: duck with his Greek big staff to kind of mark

745
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: the tempo, and he asked if he could see it

746
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: and then immediately threw it thirty feet up in the

747
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: air and everyone kind of went, oh God, and then

748
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: he caught it before it hit the ground. It's just

749
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: like the thing you do to an NYPD cop is like, hey,

750
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: can I see that thing, and then just fulling it

751
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: up in the air. But at long last, this year,

752
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: the Epic Museum in Dublin formed an NYPD choir out

753
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: of retired NYPD cops to record a version of a

754
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: Galway Bay in tribute to McGowan.

755
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: Oh that's really sweet, as somebody who really wasn't all

756
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: that familiar with the Pogues aside from Seane McGowan as

757
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: a colorful musical figure, and then obviously this song at

758
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: Christmas time. I was really blown away by the outpouring

759
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: of tributes in the wake of his death and the

760
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: really you know, I mean, just like that, like you

761
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: just mentioned about forming a group of a choir out

762
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: of retired New York Police officers to record a song

763
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: and tribute to them. I mean, that is wild to me.

764
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: The esteem in which he's held by so many. I

765
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: know that's for fans of the Pogues. I know that's

766
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: the most obvious thing in the world. It's like someone saying, Wow,

767
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: I can't believe people love John Lennon that much.

768
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I know that, but they never really hit

769
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 2: big in the US. Is the thing. I think they

770
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: they're they're If your casual listener knows them, it's from

771
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: this song, you know they and that's why they're sort

772
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: of been signed or shuffled into the pump category more

773
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 2: than more than anything. As you meditate on that, we'll

774
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: be right back with more too much information after these messages.

775
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: We mentioned earlier that this song took something like two

776
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 1: years to come together, and part of this was because

777
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: band member Kato Ridon left the band and Steve Lillie

778
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: White took over from Elvis Costello as the producer of

779
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: the song. I'm sad that Elvis Costella didn't get to

780
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: produce of the song. That would have been amazing.

781
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: Did you ever mention Kate when you were interviewing him, No,

782
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 2: or like any of the folks. Yeah, I mean they know.

783
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: I don't know about the Pogues. Yeah, I know, I mean, yeah,

784
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: I was. Costello. His memoir is incredible. I mean he's

785
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: an amazing writer. Obviously, anyone who reads his lyrics knows that,

786
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 1: but yeah, the man is one of the most musically minded.

787
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: His musical knowledge is probably the broadest of anyone, certainly

788
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: if anyone I've ever interviewed ever, I mean just anyone,

789
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: I know, it's pretty amazing. Yeah uh. A new demo,

790
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: Fairytale of New York, was recorded at London's Abbey Roads Studios,

791
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: my beloved Abbey Roads Studios. It all goes back to

792
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: the Beatles in March nineteen eighty seven, with Shane McGowan

793
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: singing both the male and female roles, but the master

794
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: take would eventually be recorded during a sweltering July session

795
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: Christmas in July. The two parts of the song Finer's beautiful,

796
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: poignant melodic theme and McGowan's dialogues We're giving the band

797
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: as you say hell as they attempted to record them live,

798
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: so Lily White made the classic producer decision of just

799
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: having them record these two parts separately and join them

800
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: with an edit, much like George Martin did for the

801
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: Beatles Strawberry Fields Forever, probably in the same studio at

802
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: Abbey Road.

803
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's tricky. Even the live performance that

804
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: we mentioned earlier with Glen Hanson covering the song at

805
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: Shamee's funeral, like he is very much dictating tempo and

806
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: transitions with his guitar because it's such a weird ching.

807
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: It approximates the feeling of a drunken pub sing along. Yeah,

808
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: which is great, great for art less, good for practically recording.

809
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: That's funny. I heard the rhythm as like two drunks

810
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: out of a bar, arms around each other, patching down

811
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: the street, trying to hit each other up.

812
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

813
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: Lillie White later told The Guardian it was a beautiful time.

814
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: I got the Pogues when they were really firing and

815
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: before too much craziness got involved. As long as I

816
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: got them early in the day, it was great. There's

817
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: a list, yeah right.

818
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: Horns and strings were recorded at Townhouse Studios on the

819
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: last day of recording of what would become the band's

820
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 2: third album, If I Should Fall from Grace with God.

821
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: That album title track, by the way, is one of

822
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 2: my favorite songs of all time. It is such a

823
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 2: perfect dissolation of the Pogues. It's like this breakneck tempo

824
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: country punk song. Ah so good. So James Spearley, the

825
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: according player, sketched out of a melodic idea, and then

826
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: that was later brought to full arranged fully by Fiachra Tench.

827
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: He is credited with string arrangements on the Boomtown Rats,

828
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 2: I Don't like Mondays? Oh yeah, how about that. McGowan

829
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: supposedly one of the orchestra to interpolate a chunk of

830
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: the melody from Have Yourself on Merry Little Christmas, but

831
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: the band's guitarist Phil Chevron talked to him out of it.

832
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 2: Good call, Phil, So the nearly finished track was presented

833
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: to Lily Wait for McCole to take a stab at.

834
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: She spent hours on the phrasing and the band was

835
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: mostly impressed by the result, though Lily Whit would later

836
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: tell The Guardian to be honest, they weren't one hundred

837
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 2: percent convinced that Kersey was the right person. McGowan differs,

838
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: recalling I was madly in love with Kirsty for the

839
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: first time I saw her on Top of the Pops.

840
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: She was a genius in her own right, and she

841
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: was a better producer than he was. She could make

842
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: a song her own, and she made Fairytale her own,

843
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,439
Speaker 2: and McAllan was so impressed that he decided to re

844
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: record his own vocals, but the pair's chemistry on that

845
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: song is entirely artificial. Really, they were never in the

846
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 2: same room together during the recording process.

847
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: Oh that makes me sad. I really don't like that.

848
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 2: I mean, they performed it live together, but yeah, it

849
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: was all remote sessions, at least for their different parts.

850
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 2: And I went through this whole Sound on Sound article

851
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 2: about the making of If I Should Fall from Grace

852
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: with God. I was hoping for some really absurd stories,

853
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: but actually most of that article was concerned about how

854
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: the sort of technical difficulties of recording this band because

855
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: of all their instruments. The guy who engineered the session,

856
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 2: Chris Dickey, said that the group was pretty productive. Actually,

857
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: he said, during the first week of the Fall from

858
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: Grace sessions, we recorded ten backing tracks. On the Saturday night, management,

859
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 2: friends and road crew all showed up to the studio

860
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: and we had a bigger party than any end of

861
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: album bash we'd ever had there. And that was just

862
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 2: the end of the first week. Yeah. He just talks

863
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: about how like they had all these acoustic instruments in

864
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: the studio, they all kind of had to be isolated separately,

865
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 2: and the instruments on that record include tin whistle, accordion, piano, mandolin, dulcimer, cello, banjo, saxophone,

866
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: a traditional lute in Irish music called a sittern concertina,

867
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: assorted percussion instruments ranging from traditional Irish frame drums, hand

868
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: drums to spoons. Also, everyone sang, and there is an

869
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,919
Speaker 2: additional credit for the Pogue's Choir on the record, which

870
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: was made up of everyone from Lily White to the

871
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: band's manager Frank Murray to quote Brian Sheridan from the

872
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: Off License, which I believe is a reference to a bookie.

873
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 2: And also the man from the Indian Takeaway is credited

874
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: with being part of the Pogue's Choir, which I assume

875
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 2: meant they were getting delivery and just invited this guy

876
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: into do backing vocals with them. Dicky also noted that

877
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 2: McGowan's headphone mix for recording was the loudest of anyone

878
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: I've recorded, and consisted mostly of the kick drum, the

879
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: bass guitar, and his own vocals, and it was so

880
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: loud that they had to be concerned about the mix

881
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: from the headphones bleeding into his vocal mic, particularly when

882
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 2: he was recording to scratch tracks that were going to

883
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: be rerecorded later. I just think that's funny.

884
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: Though the full length If I Should Fall from Grace

885
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: with God, wouldn't be released until nineteen eighty eight. The

886
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: decision was wisely made to release fairy Tale of New

887
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: York as a single, and the video was duly drummed

888
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: up in New York. Shot during Thanksgiving Week. A young

889
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: Matt Dillon plays the NYPD officer who arrests McGowan, but

890
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: as a huge fan of the Pogues, who'd actually met

891
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: McGowan the year before in nineteen eighty six when the

892
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: band first came to the city. Matt Dylon was too

893
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: nervous to really give him the old NYPD brutality, and

894
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: mcgallan freezing cold and an actual Lower east Side police

895
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: station cell snapped at him, just kick the shit out

896
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: of me and throw me in the cell and then

897
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: we could be warm. What a charmer. The black and

898
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: white segments of McGowan and McCall were modeled on a

899
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: BBC documentary about Billie Holliday. There was actually a point

900
00:48:55,080 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: of contention though for keyboardists Jim Farnley. Fearily God, I'm

901
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: the worst BOSTONI and I can't say any of these

902
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: names that I've definitely seen as a kid. Those are

903
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: his hands playing the piano, but he's wearing McGowan's rings

904
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: to preserve the illusion that it's him, he said. He

905
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: told mcguardian years later, I'm the piano player, and I

906
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: wanted people to know that. It was absolutely humiliating, but

907
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: it looks better. You have to find your proper plays

908
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: for the benefit of the project.

909
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: Sad for him, but you know, you gotta find your

910
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: proper place. I don't know where's going with that. Fairy

911
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: Tale of New York was released on November twenty third,

912
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven. The song has never been the UK

913
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: number one at Christmas or ever. It was kept at

914
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: number two on its original release by the pet Shot

915
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: Boys cover of Always on My Mind, causing McGowan to

916
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: supposedly quip we were beaten by two queens and a

917
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: drum machine, which is going to sound so much worse

918
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: after I get to this next bit. The big elephant

919
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: in the room that we've been dodging is the hard

920
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 2: f slur that mccole's character calls mcgallan at one point,

921
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: and very stupidly. Most of the early controversy of this

922
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: song centered around the use of the word arts. Because

923
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: the homophobic slur was considered okay, arts was not. Various

924
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: channels of the BBC aired censored versions or didn't and

925
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 2: then reversed their censoring. MTV UK bleeped both sports. The

926
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: debate about it kicks up annually, seemingly, and one of

927
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: the bigger ones was in twenty eighteen when two broadcasters

928
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 2: were working for RTE asked the public company to censor

929
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 2: the song and the company refused, and McGowan made I

930
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: think one of his only public statements about it at

931
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 2: the time, saying the word was used by the character

932
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: because it fitted with the way she would speak with

933
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: and with her character. She is not supposed to be

934
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: a nice person or even a wholesome person. She's a

935
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history,

936
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 2: and she's down on her luck and desperate. Her dialogue

937
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 2: is as accurate as I could make it, but she

938
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: is not intended to offend. She's just supposed to be

939
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: an authentic carecharacter. And not all characters and songs and

940
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: stories are angels or even decent and respectable. Sometimes characters

941
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: and songs and stories have to be evil or nasty

942
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: to tell the story effective. If people don't understand that

943
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 2: I was trying to accurately portray the character as authentically

944
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: as possible, then I am absolutely fine with them bleeping

945
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: the word. But I don't want to get into an argument.

946
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: I think that is a great nuanced take from him.

947
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 2: What do you think, No.

948
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: I agree, I mean it's funny. Norman Lear died a

949
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: few days before recording this, and I was revisiting a

950
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: lot of his television work from the seventies, All in

951
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: the Family and the Jeffersons specifically, and their takes on

952
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: the way that they would portray very offensive characters as

953
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: a way to make a point. I know these days

954
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: that's seen as such an old, tired trope and we

955
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: should be giving more air to these harmful words. But

956
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: considering the time that the song was made in the

957
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: late eighties, that I think that was probably a more

958
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: legitimate excuse then, that you were trying to make a

959
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: point about a character. And and yeah, that's interesting to me.

960
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 1: It's an interesting and I think that's makes sense at

961
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: the time. I don't think it's something that, Yeah, I

962
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: think it cause more of a distraction now I think

963
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: that you were to make a song now and put

964
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: that word in.

965
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: I mean to me, the debate always comes down to, like,

966
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 2: it's not so much about like, oh, they're a woman

967
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 2: of their time or like whatever, but it comes down

968
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: to me, like what would the character? What does this

969
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: make sense for the story? And and I think recently

970
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 2: I saw a lot of this come up with Otessa Moshvek,

971
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: the novelist who wrote her fam most famous one is

972
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: by Year of Rest of Relaxation. That there's a movie

973
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: being made of her novel Eileen, or the movie coming out,

974
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: I should say. And all of her characters are awful,

975
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: awful human beings, and you know, to the point where

976
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: it can get a little tiresome. But you know she's

977
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 2: trying to do that as as her literary device and

978
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 2: part of her voice and the stories that she wants

979
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: to write. And I do think that there is a

980
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 2: germ of that that has to be protected Otherwise, you know,

981
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 2: you don't get a lot of great books of art.

982
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 2: And someone's probably gonna twist these words and make me

983
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 2: out to be a homophobe. But you know, I think

984
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: you got to you got to walk that line and

985
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 2: say I'm trying to paint the character, and this goes

986
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 2: into making them a nuanced, realized vision.

987
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting to me. And this may be

988
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: too much of a tangent. I remember in screenwriting school

989
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: in like two thousand and six, two thousand and seven,

990
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, all the professors saying, you know,

991
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: you need a likable protagonist, a likable protagonist and need

992
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 1: to do things. You need to have them be flawed

993
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: in some way so that they can grow, but you

994
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: need them to still be to redeem them somehow and

995
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: make them likable. And I and I feel like these days,

996
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: especially with shows with prestige dramas, things like mad Men,

997
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: Breaking Bad, Yeah, people that And I noticed it really

998
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: on Succession, where every single character is unlikable to the

999
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: point where well, I mean I loved Succession, but there

1000
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: were times when it was tiresome because they were so

1001
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: just detestable all of that. Yeah, and it wasn't like

1002
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a whole theory about how Succession

1003
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: is basically arrested development with the humor dial down. I mean,

1004
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: they are, It's true. We interviewed Jason Bateman for a

1005
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: show working on and I wanted to ask him that,

1006
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: but I chickened out. I know, I know, but think

1007
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, you've got like the Jason Bateman character,

1008
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: Michael is Is Kendall. He's like the good Son that worked.

1009
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: I haven't watched the session I worked. I worked for

1010
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 2: the Murdocks. I know it's good. I just have no

1011
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: interest in seeing them fictionalized.

1012
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: Okay, no, but it's just interesting to me. And I

1013
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: don't know if if we as an audience have changed

1014
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: or if we just become accustomed to it by characters

1015
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 1: that went through sort of an evil transfer, like Walter

1016
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: White and Breaking Pad. But yeah, it's interesting to me

1017
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: how unlikable characters have been embraced in culture in recent years.

1018
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I have nothing more to I have

1019
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: nothing else to say about that.

1020
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: I yield my time here. This seemingly annual debate kicked

1021
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 2: up again in twenty twenty, with the BBC again announced

1022
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 2: that Radio one would play censored version while Radio two

1023
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: would play the original, and presenters for their Channel six

1024
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: Music would decide each for themselves which version to play.

1025
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: It was apparently Nick Caves turned to weigh in. Next,

1026
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 2: he drew the short straw and he accused the BBC

1027
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: of mutilating and stripping the song of its value. The

1028
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: funniest part, though, the only reason I bring this up again,

1029
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: of the twenty twenty flap was in this British troll

1030
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 2: right wing door. An ex actor named Lawrence Fox attempted

1031
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: to surf the controversy for attention, trying to get the

1032
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 2: original version to chart and tweeting defund the BBC, and

1033
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 2: the poge's Twitter account responded, off, you little heron.

1034
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: Would you like to tell the good listeners what heron

1035
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 1: folk means?

1036
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 2: I think in Google that one.

1037
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,919
Speaker 1: Fairy Tale New York spent five weeks at the top

1038
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,439
Speaker 1: of the Irish chart, which McGowan said mattered to him

1039
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: more than not making number one in England. Various re

1040
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: releases when as high as number three, and it's re

1041
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: entered the top seventy five every December since two thousand

1042
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: and five, making the top twenty on twenty separate occasions,

1043
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: and the top ten on ten. You made that up.

1044
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: There's no way those numbers lined up like that. With

1045
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: its twenty one visits to the chart to date, it's

1046
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: told one hundred and fourteen weeks on the official UK

1047
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: Top seventy five, making it the sixth most charted song

1048
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: of all time. Various polls by various publications named it

1049
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: the UK's favorite Christmas song at different points. According to

1050
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: the British music licensing body PPL, it's become the most

1051
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: popular Christmas song of the twenty first century in the UK.

1052
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 1: Following McGowan's death twenty twenty three. The song returned to

1053
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: number one on the Irish Singles Chart on the same

1054
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: day as McGowan's funeral, and thirty six years after it

1055
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: first topped the charts in Ireland. Supposedly, the song was

1056
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 1: earning the band about four hundred and seventy thousand pounds

1057
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: per year in royalties as of twenty sixteen, which was

1058
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: as you say, pretty pretty, pretty good, wonderful Christmas time.

1059
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: I'm now contractually obliged to mention earns. Paul McCartney. I

1060
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: think upwards of three quarters of a million pounds a year,

1061
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: or maybe three quarters of a million dollars a year.

1062
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 2: How nice for.

1063
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: But the song and the pogues, as you mentioned earlier,

1064
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,439
Speaker 1: never really got it to do in the States. It's

1065
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: never reached the Hot one hundred, only charting on Billboard's

1066
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: holiday digital song sales, peaking at number twenty two and

1067
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: twenty eleven. Though it's possible that maybe McGowan's death will

1068
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: change that this year Brenda Lee will be blocking the

1069
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: top spot.

1070
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Damn it.

1071
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: There's a good chance that this is the first song

1072
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: you ever heard. It came out like two weeks after

1073
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: you were born, in November eighty seven.

1074
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah. I don't know that I would have

1075
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:17,919
Speaker 2: gotten per yeah, yeah, but it would explain a lot. Unfortunately,

1076
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 2: the success of Fairytale caused a number of fissures within

1077
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 2: the pogue to worsen. For starters, despite the reputation, most

1078
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 2: of them were by this point in their career, married

1079
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 2: with children, and gasp, no longer drinking through their shows. McGowan, however,

1080
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 2: was going the opposite route. He had always abused drugs

1081
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 2: along with his heroic intake of Who's There's one famous

1082
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: story about him being in Wellington, New Zealand, taking much

1083
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 2: of speed and hearing the voices of Maori telling him

1084
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 2: to paint his face and chest blue and run around

1085
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 2: the hotel. But now he was oscillating between heroin and

1086
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 2: prodigious amounts of LSD that induced, for example, long conversations

1087
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 2: between Shane and one of his heroes, Jimmy Hendrix.

1088
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: Those don't really go together.

1089
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 2: LSD. And yeah, I mean it's it's.

1090
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: It's twothpaste of orange juice.

1091
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people said that it was like it was

1092
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 2: really around it. I think it really was the success

1093
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 2: of this that that cracked him, because people said, the

1094
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: heroin you just got a lot worse. And I read

1095
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 2: a lot of very interesting interviews where they were where,

1096
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 2: you know, they said that he was essentially a shy

1097
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 2: person and kind of made it into the frontman role

1098
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 2: against sort of his wishes because they all wrote and

1099
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: you know, they were all sort of democratically lined up

1100
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 2: along the front of the stage together. But because he

1101
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: was shamed, he sort of was christened to the front

1102
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 2: man and he always disagreed with that. And yeah, I

1103
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 2: think the drugs were like the bad drugs, the really

1104
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 2: bad drugs were an attempt to cope with this, and

1105
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 2: particularly the band's touring schedule, which had always been pretty hard,

1106
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: but then it increased dramatically after success. Fairy Tale and

1107
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: the book A Drink with Shane McGowan, which is a

1108
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 2: series of interviews and Reminiscence that he assembled with his wife,

1109
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 2: Victoria Mary Clark. He explained, I was already pissed off

1110
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: with touring by the time we did Fairytale to New York.

1111
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 2: What a wonderful term of phrase. I gradually started hating

1112
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: for it. I didn't notice it was happening until it

1113
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 2: was too late, and he continued. I kept asking for

1114
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 2: a year off we had to tour after Fairytale, Yeah,

1115
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 2: but we didn't have to tour for four years after it.

1116
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: Jesus McGowan became increasingly unreliable live. He wasn't allowed the

1117
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: board to flight at Heathrow Airport when the group was

1118
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 1: supposed to fly over and open for Bob Dylan in

1119
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: San Francisco in nineteen eighty nine, and subsequently the band

1120
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: performed without him. I assume he was too drunk to fly.

1121
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think he was just too messed

1122
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: up and it would have on the plane. He was

1123
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: supposedly really bad on, really bad on Heroin around this time.

1124
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 2: There's a great documentary called Shane McGowan A Crop of

1125
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: Gold by Julian Temple. I think name Yeah, and everyone

1126
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: unanimously too much into Heroin.

1127
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 1: Ultimately The Pogues ended up firing Shane McGowan in nineteen

1128
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: ninety one during a tour in Tokyo. His response, what

1129
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: took you so long? Oh that's so honrish Jesus Christ,

1130
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: so devastatingly self aware. Yeah, so so sad and so resigned.

1131
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: Oh God, that hurts so much. But he formed a

1132
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: new band, the Popes, which it's really funny. That's a

1133
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 1: great name for so many reasons, and turned in some

1134
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 1: respectable records, but by and large, the rest of his

1135
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: life was mostly occupied with just being as you write,

1136
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 1: Shane McGowan. And when he finally got his teeth fixed

1137
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, it was national news. Ye actually I

1138
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: even remember seeing that, and I apparently know he was.

1139
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: The Pogues reunited a few times, grew to hate each

1140
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: other again, McGowan quipped, and he spread he made music

1141
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: or did one off shows. Interestingly enough, Snead O'Connor once

1142
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: reported him to the police for drug possession after finding

1143
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: him passed out on his floor. How about pissed it?

1144
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: O'Connor at first. McAllan later thanked her, saying that the

1145
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: incident helped him kick heroin.

1146
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't listened to much of the popes. I

1147
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 2: think it goes back to that kind of club rock

1148
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 2: sort of tradition that his first fame was. Yeah, you know,

1149
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 2: I really wanted to talk about how he kept bravely

1150
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 2: making music and this, that and the other thing. But

1151
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, he did record, he did do these little shows.

1152
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: But it really did seem like he just kind of

1153
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: coasted into legend status throughout the throughout the nineties and

1154
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 2: two thousands of kind of parked there, which.

1155
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: You know, as hard living irishmen of a certain age,

1156
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 1: should you know, as they're want to do, Yeah, as

1157
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: their little legend carries them through their twilight years.

1158
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 2: Sadly, he did live to see John bon Jovi's cover

1159
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 2: of fairy Tale, in which bon Jovi sings both parts,

1160
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 2: although he probably missed Travis and Jason Kelsey's cover entitled

1161
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 2: fairy Tale of Philadelphia Jay Lenovoice, do you hear about this?

1162
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: Do you guys hear it?

1163
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 1: No?

1164
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 2: That's all that's all you get. I guess they there musical.

1165
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 2: One of them is musical. I don't care.

1166
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: They've got cars, biggest bars, they got rivers of gold

1167
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: with the windows right through. You still plays for the old.

1168
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 2: When you first took my hand on a cold Christmas Eve,

1169
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: you promised me. Brod Street was.

1170
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 1: Waiting for me. You were handsome, you were pretty. You're

1171
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: the king of South Philly.

1172
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: When the band finished playing, they howled out for more.

1173
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 2: The letters were swinging, all the drugs, Day were singing

1174
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 2: we are on a corner, and then danced through the night.

1175
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: I hate that, Yeah, I went on my way. I'm

1176
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: not allowed to say I hate that, am I? Because

1177
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have God knows how many Swift.

1178
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 2: I don't know if they'd love for her extends to

1179
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 2: protecting him all of his output. He does seem to

1180
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: be one of the brick dumbest people alive.

1181
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 3: Like Twitter.

1182
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: His Twitter and the quotes circulating from that podcast that

1183
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 2: he has is just like, yeah, man, you picked the

1184
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 2: right career. He probably missed that one because he had

1185
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 2: been hospitalized fighting viral encephalitis for most of the past year.

1186
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 2: He had been wheelchair bounds since twenty fifteen, since he

1187
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 2: fell exiting a recording studio and he broke his pelvis.

1188
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 2: By the way, not the one not travisis not Travis Kelcey.

1189
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,959
Speaker 2: He broke his knee in twenty twenty one after falling

1190
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 2: at his home. There was this running bit that all

1191
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 2: the journalists used to mention about how he was just

1192
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: like constantly injured by fall falls during the folks Heyday,

1193
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 2: which if you're stumble drunk for the better part of

1194
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: a decade, then yeah, you're you're going to fall a lot.

1195
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 2: But he did. There was an upside to one of these.

1196
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 2: He did at least detox completely his two hundred and

1197
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 2: fifteen hospitalization, and this supposedly continued for years, and he

1198
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 2: died in November.

1199
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 1: I was just telling something about this. I just bought

1200
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 1: an ash tray with a playing card spade on it,

1201
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: and I was paying for it, and I started talking

1202
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: with the cashier about Lemmy from Motorhead, because that was

1203
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: their symbol. And I remember interviewing him a couple months

1204
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: before he died, and he he was one of several

1205
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: rock luminaries who, towards the end of their life, in

1206
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: a nod to health, switched from jack and coke to

1207
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: orange juice and vodka because it was supposedly healthier. And

1208
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: I remember let me being very proud telling me that

1209
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: I don't know there was a reason why that came

1210
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: into my head.

1211
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: I don't actually.

1212
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 2: Remember whyforcable detox because hospitalized for falling down and breaking

1213
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 2: your knee.

1214
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: Ye that yeah, that'll do it. I guess that'll do

1215
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 1: and let me also died in late twenty fifteen, so

1216
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 1: maybe that was what I was say. Hey. Kirsty McCole

1217
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 1: had a much stranger postcript to fairy Tale New York.

1218
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: While she credited performing the single with the Pogues around

1219
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 1: this time with helping her temporarily overcome her stage fright,

1220
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: she continued to have a checkered career, with a few

1221
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: modest hits but no real consistency. By the mid nineties,

1222
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: she was considering abandoning music altogether, but found herself enamored

1223
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 1: of Latin music, particularly Cuban music, after visiting there in

1224
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, she started taking Spanish lessons and playing

1225
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: Cuban solidarity concerts. She started living Portuguese as well, eventually

1226
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: visiting Brazil, and her passion eventually turned into the album

1227
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: Tropical Brainstorm, which was her last a critical hit that

1228
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: featured the minor hit in These Shoes, which appeared on

1229
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: an episode of Sex in the City. This is where

1230
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,400
Speaker 1: it gets Really sad In the year two thousand, McColl.

1231
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: In the year two thousand, McColl took a holiday to Cosimo,

1232
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: Mexico with her sons and her boyfriend, musician James Knight,

1233
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: obstensibly to help one of her recover from the death

1234
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: of his friend. On December eighteenth, two thousand, she and

1235
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: her sons went diving at a reef in the National

1236
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: Marine Park of Cosameo, in an area where watercraft were banned.

1237
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: Surfacing from a dive, McCole saw that a powerboat had

1238
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 1: entered the restricted area and was headed towards her fifteen

1239
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: year old son, Jamie. She was able to push him

1240
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: out of the way, but was struck and run over

1241
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: by the powerboat, which killed her instantly. Her body was

1242
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: sent back to the UK, where she was cremated after

1243
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: a funeral service. Yeah, and it gets worse.

1244
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 2: The twist to this is that aboard the power boat

1245
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 2: was Germo Gonzales Nova. There was a multimillionaire gasp that

1246
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 2: he's the multimillionaire president of the Mexican grocery store chain

1247
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 2: from Marsel, Mexicana, along with members of his family. The

1248
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 2: power boat was owned by his brother, who founded the chain.

1249
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 2: A boat hand named jose senjam testified that he was

1250
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 2: in control of the boat at the time, but I

1251
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 2: witness his few did this, and also said that the

1252
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 2: boat was traveling much faster than the one knot he

1253
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 2: said he was going at the time. Under what I

1254
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 2: considered to be a sort of insane Mexican law, he

1255
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 2: was allowed to pay the equivalent of ninety dollars in

1256
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 2: lieu of serving his nearly three year sentence, and he

1257
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 2: also paid about two one hundred and fifty dollars in

1258
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 2: restitution to mccole's family, a figure that was decided upon

1259
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 2: by his wages. Some people who spoke to him after

1260
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 2: this said that he admitted to them that he was

1261
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 2: paid by the family to become the fall guy, and

1262
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 2: mccole's family subsequently launched the Justice for Kirsty campaign, which

1263
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 2: re released versions of fairy Tale would benefit and they

1264
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,759
Speaker 2: repeatedly appealed to the Mexican government and the Inter American

1265
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 2: Commission on Human Rights, and the case gained an increasing

1266
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 2: amount of public attention over the years. There was a

1267
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 2: release of a BBC documentary called Who Killed Kirsty McCole

1268
01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 2: in two thousand and four, but Son of a Bitch

1269
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 2: In February of two thousand and six, Bono addressed the

1270
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: incident at a YouTube concert in Mexico, after which the

1271
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: Mexican government released a statement saying that it would take action,

1272
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:18,480
Speaker 2: and by May of two thousand and six, Emilio Cortes Ramirez,

1273
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 2: a federal prosecutor in Cozomo, was found liable for breech

1274
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 2: of authority in his handling of McColl's case. I can't

1275
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:27,679
Speaker 2: believe it took Bono.

1276
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:32,759
Speaker 1: You know, Kirsty was Irish, right, Kirsty, she was English.

1277
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 1: I was using on them and I was gonna say

1278
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 1: it took the biggest Irish musician ever.

1279
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think it was because the Lily White

1280
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 2: thing and because Joshua Tree. But it is just so

1281
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 2: funny that, like, the family was putting all this money

1282
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 2: towards going through the actually legal actions, and Bono just

1283
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,719
Speaker 2: went on one of his Bono rants or type tangents

1284
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 2: at a concert and then they were like, oh, oh God, okay,

1285
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 2: we got to get our stuff together, and they offered

1286
01:09:56,439 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 2: this litigator up as a SA official lamb. In August

1287
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 2: of two thousand and nine, Carlos Gonzalez Nova, the brother

1288
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 2: of Giermo Gonzales Nova died at ninety two. By December

1289
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 2: of that year, the Justice for Kirsty campaign issued a

1290
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,600
Speaker 2: statement that the campaign is being terminated since it was

1291
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 2: successful in achieving most of its aims, and its remaining

1292
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 2: funds were divided between two charities in Kirsty's Men in

1293
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 2: the end, as accordions, James Feirley once said, fairy Tale

1294
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 2: went off and inhabited its own planet. Is the Christmas

1295
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 2: Song for people who may hate Christmas. One of the

1296
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 2: only modern classics to be added to the canon, and

1297
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 2: people might find it depressing, but I've always loved the

1298
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 2: grace note that changes the latter choruses of the song

1299
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 2: from the NYPD Choir were singing Galway Bay to the

1300
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: NYPD Choir still singing Galway Bay. Because to me, it

1301
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 2: implies the sense of renewal as the holidays churn into

1302
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 2: the new year. As long as they're still singing and

1303
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: the bells keep ringing, there's hope that we can change

1304
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 2: for the better. The impetus for me to pitch this

1305
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:03,639
Speaker 2: episode was, as Jordan mentioned earlier, video from Shane McGowan's funeral,

1306
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 2: where Glenn Hansend sang a version of his song and

1307
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 2: his family. Shane's family was up dancing in the aisles

1308
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 2: the church, and that is the defining takeaway of fairy

1309
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 2: Tale of New York for me. The last line, can't

1310
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 2: make it all alone. I've built my dreams around you.

1311
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 2: I'd like to paraphize that as it's all a bitch

1312
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 2: in it. But we've got each other.

1313
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:31,839
Speaker 1: Don't we, Yes, we do, Heigel.

1314
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 2: Folks, thank you for listening. This has been too much information.

1315
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 2: I'm Alex Sigel and.

1316
01:11:36,840 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan round Dog. We'll catch you next time. Too

1317
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 1: Much Information was a production of iHeartRadio.

1318
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,879
Speaker 2: The show's executive producers are Noel Brown and Jordan Runtog.

1319
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: The show's supervising producer is Michael Alder June.

1320
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 2: The show was researched, written and hosted by Jordan Runtalk

1321
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:21,440
Speaker 2: and Alex Heigel.

1322
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 1: With original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra.

1323
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

1324
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the

1325
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1326
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 1: favorite shows.