1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Bushkin. 2 00:00:20,556 --> 00:00:23,316 Speaker 2: In New Orleans, a few miles from the French Quarter, 3 00:00:23,716 --> 00:00:27,236 Speaker 2: there is a small liberal arts college called Dillard University. 4 00:00:27,876 --> 00:00:30,836 Speaker 2: The campus is an elegant cluster of one hundred year 5 00:00:30,876 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 2: old white buildings bordering a large lawn. Long rows of 6 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:37,636 Speaker 2: live oaks run down either side of the green. It 7 00:00:37,716 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 2: looks like a postcard from the nineteen thirties. And because 8 00:00:41,236 --> 00:00:58,876 Speaker 2: this is New Orleans, the school choir is amazing. The 9 00:00:58,916 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 2: president of Dillard is Walter kimbro Tall, mid fifties, close 10 00:01:03,236 --> 00:01:06,836 Speaker 2: cropped hair, pencil thin mustache, Bachelor of Science from the 11 00:01:06,876 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 2: University of Georgia, master's degree from Miami University, PhD from 12 00:01:11,716 --> 00:01:18,396 Speaker 2: Georgia State. Your father is a very well known pastern Atlanta. 13 00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:19,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. 14 00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 2: He's Walter Senior. You're Walter Jr. 15 00:01:22,436 --> 00:01:25,116 Speaker 4: Well, we have different middle names, so he's Walter Lee 16 00:01:25,156 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 4: and I'm Walter Mark. Because he felt like Walter Lee 17 00:01:27,316 --> 00:01:30,916 Speaker 4: was country, so he didn't give me that. But yeah, 18 00:01:30,956 --> 00:01:32,076 Speaker 4: that's that's my dad. 19 00:01:32,196 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 2: Yeah. I would encourage you, should you ever be in 20 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 2: New Orleans to pay a visit to Dillard, hear the 21 00:01:40,916 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 2: choir perform if you can, and walk around the campus 22 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:52,436 Speaker 2: as I did with Walter Kimbro. Yeah, we're in this 23 00:01:52,556 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 2: area of New Orleans is Gentili's Callegenttillity. 24 00:01:55,276 --> 00:02:00,516 Speaker 4: The area is very residential. It was middle class African 25 00:02:00,596 --> 00:02:02,956 Speaker 4: American community, So a lot of things. I want to 26 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 4: sort of walk this way and make a loop. 27 00:02:07,276 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 2: Then, when you finished your roller on campus, look up 28 00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:15,196 Speaker 2: Dillard on the US News and World Report Best College's 29 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:19,356 Speaker 2: Rankings website. They're on the Liberal Arts college list, which 30 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 2: usually has some combination of Williams, Amherst and Swarthmore at 31 00:02:23,316 --> 00:02:26,796 Speaker 2: the top. But keep going down the long winding road 32 00:02:26,836 --> 00:02:33,596 Speaker 2: of elite private American education, gilded with Ivy Granted and Tweed, Pomona, Wellesley, Bowden, 33 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:37,156 Speaker 2: keep going, and after you get to the fancy schools, 34 00:02:37,436 --> 00:02:39,916 Speaker 2: and the tier below the fancy schools, and the tier 35 00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:42,956 Speaker 2: below that tier, there is a bottomless pit into which 36 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 2: US News dumps all the colleges that they considered too 37 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:50,876 Speaker 2: mediocre to marit proper assessment. Dillard is in the bottomless pit. 38 00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 2: My question was why. That's the mystery that led me 39 00:02:57,596 --> 00:02:59,956 Speaker 2: all the way down to New Orleans to see Walter Kimbro. 40 00:03:00,716 --> 00:03:05,876 Speaker 2: What does America's premier ranking system have against Dillard University. 41 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:11,116 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Glawe. You're listening to Revision's History, 42 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:16,396 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and Misunderstood. This episode is 43 00:03:16,436 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 2: a continuation of my investigation of the strange annual American 44 00:03:21,516 --> 00:03:28,596 Speaker 2: ritual known as the US News Best Colleges Rankings. I 45 00:03:28,676 --> 00:03:32,156 Speaker 2: decided I'd pick a school in order to better understand 46 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:36,316 Speaker 2: how the rankings work, make it a case study, analyze 47 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 2: its performance on the bewildering set of metrics used by 48 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:47,276 Speaker 2: the mysterious US News algorithm. Let's call this investigation Project Dillard. 49 00:03:50,956 --> 00:03:53,756 Speaker 2: About three quarters of the student body at Dillard are 50 00:03:53,836 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 2: Pelgrant eligible, meaning they qualify for federal assistance. The average 51 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:01,916 Speaker 2: family income of the students is just over thirty thousand 52 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:04,996 Speaker 2: dollars a year. A third of them are the first 53 00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 2: in their families to go to college. Virtually all are black. 54 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:12,436 Speaker 4: Dylan is a part of a group of HBCUs they've 55 00:04:12,476 --> 00:04:16,556 Speaker 4: called the Black Ivy League, so more House, Spelman, Howard Hampton, 56 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 4: Dillar was in their group too, and so some people, 57 00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:20,916 Speaker 4: you know, buy into that a lot and take pride 58 00:04:20,956 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 4: in that, and when they're broke, you won't necessarily know 59 00:04:24,436 --> 00:04:26,356 Speaker 4: that this is a student that comes from a family 60 00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 4: they're really sort of struggling because they put it together 61 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:31,876 Speaker 4: and they are able to carry themselves like they've been 62 00:04:31,916 --> 00:04:34,116 Speaker 4: solidly middle class all their life, and they haven't. 63 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 2: US News tells us that schools ranked higher on their 64 00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:41,076 Speaker 2: list are better than schools ranked lower on their list, 65 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:44,476 Speaker 2: And I want to figure out what US News means 66 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:48,276 Speaker 2: by that word better. Why is it that the black 67 00:04:48,396 --> 00:04:51,956 Speaker 2: IVY League is not treated with the same reverence as 68 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:56,156 Speaker 2: the white IVY League. I started this story on a 69 00:04:56,276 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 2: little bit of a lark because I thought it would 70 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:01,596 Speaker 2: be fun to make fun of US News. But the 71 00:05:01,676 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 2: more I did it, the angrier I got. A not 72 00:05:05,236 --> 00:05:08,236 Speaker 2: very sophisticated group of people in Washington, DC came up 73 00:05:08,236 --> 00:05:12,396 Speaker 2: with a by which we measure higher education in this country, 74 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 2: and that standard is massively biased against people who want 75 00:05:16,516 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 2: to serve underserved populations, and they have made the lives 76 00:05:20,036 --> 00:05:22,236 Speaker 2: of people like you and your students more difficult as 77 00:05:22,276 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 2: a result. 78 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:25,556 Speaker 4: Right, That's what it is, exactly, That's I mean, that's 79 00:05:25,596 --> 00:05:28,196 Speaker 4: exactly what it is. I call, you know, the US 80 00:05:28,276 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 4: News ranking is a perpetuation of privilege. That's what I've 81 00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 4: always called it is. That's all it is. It's a 82 00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:34,956 Speaker 4: perpetuation of privilege. 83 00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 2: In last week's episode, I consulted with a group of 84 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:44,876 Speaker 2: statisticians at Reid College who had hacked their way into 85 00:05:44,876 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 2: the secret US News algorithm. I decided to call on 86 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:54,516 Speaker 2: their services again, this time to help me with the 87 00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:56,636 Speaker 2: puzzle of Dillard University's rank. 88 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:02,156 Speaker 5: My name is Lauren Reebe. I am an environmental studies 89 00:06:02,236 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 5: economics major at Read College and I'm a senior. 90 00:06:06,876 --> 00:06:10,596 Speaker 2: Tell me how how did Kelly recruit you for this project? 91 00:06:11,676 --> 00:06:16,116 Speaker 2: Kelly Kelly McConville, a professor at Read who enjoys conjoling 92 00:06:16,156 --> 00:06:19,156 Speaker 2: her students into various acts of statistical mischief. 93 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 5: Kelly just messaged me one day and was like, hey, you, 94 00:06:23,156 --> 00:06:25,476 Speaker 5: I have a project that might be fun for you. 95 00:06:25,596 --> 00:06:27,596 Speaker 5: We just get to play with data and make some 96 00:06:27,676 --> 00:06:29,836 Speaker 5: models and try to predict some things. 97 00:06:29,516 --> 00:06:32,476 Speaker 6: And hold on, hold on. Your first question was can 98 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:33,636 Speaker 6: I make graphs? 99 00:06:35,156 --> 00:06:35,876 Speaker 7: That's true. 100 00:06:37,796 --> 00:06:39,836 Speaker 2: I think we need to go back to the mysterious 101 00:06:39,916 --> 00:06:42,676 Speaker 2: variable that makes up such a large portion of the 102 00:06:42,756 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 2: US News algorithm, the Peer Assessment Score. US News asks 103 00:06:48,396 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 2: every college president, provost, and admissions dean in the country 104 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:57,156 Speaker 2: to rank the academic reputation of every other college in 105 00:06:57,196 --> 00:07:02,676 Speaker 2: their category on a scale of one to five. If 106 00:07:02,716 --> 00:07:05,636 Speaker 2: you listen to the previous episode, you'll know that I 107 00:07:05,636 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 2: couldn't figure out how all those college presidents came up 108 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:10,756 Speaker 2: up with their peer assessment grades. 109 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 8: I tried. 110 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 2: I interrogated Bob Morse, who runs the rankings. I had 111 00:07:15,556 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 2: a long interview with a mysterious deep throat figure named 112 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 2: Dean as we did a peer assessment lightning round. I 113 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 2: looked into whether hot sauce could sway the graters in 114 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:31,436 Speaker 2: the end. Let's be honest, I got nowhere. But then 115 00:07:31,476 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 2: I realized I could ask the read college hackers to 116 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:40,236 Speaker 2: do a statistical analysis what factors actually correlate with the 117 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 2: peer assessment score. That was my assignment for Lauren Rabe. 118 00:07:45,036 --> 00:07:48,956 Speaker 5: We were focusing on a few variables. College endowment, which 119 00:07:48,996 --> 00:07:50,996 Speaker 5: is just how much money they have in the bank. 120 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:53,916 Speaker 5: We were looking at tuition, so how much it costs 121 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:56,636 Speaker 5: for a student to attend, the percent of students that 122 00:07:56,716 --> 00:07:59,516 Speaker 5: are white, the percent of students that receive PEL grants. 123 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:04,676 Speaker 5: And I found that endowment by itself, just the size 124 00:08:04,676 --> 00:08:10,116 Speaker 5: of the endowment predicts half of the peersssessment score, So 125 00:08:10,156 --> 00:08:14,356 Speaker 5: we can explain half of the assessments. The peer assessment 126 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:16,396 Speaker 5: scored just by how much money a school has in 127 00:08:16,436 --> 00:08:19,316 Speaker 5: the bank, and then once we start adding the other 128 00:08:19,756 --> 00:08:24,196 Speaker 5: the remaining school characteristics, we end up with over ninety percent. 129 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 2: Ninety one point three percent to be precise. It seems 130 00:08:28,636 --> 00:08:31,876 Speaker 2: pretty clear that you can predict the reputation assigned to 131 00:08:32,116 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 2: every college in the country with almost perfect accuracy, just 132 00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 2: by spending a few minutes on Google. Dillard's reputation score 133 00:08:42,276 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 2: is two point six a terrible score, by the way, 134 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:48,436 Speaker 2: but now we know why. It's not because there's something 135 00:08:48,556 --> 00:08:53,036 Speaker 2: very wrong with Dillard's reputation. It's because Dillard falls short 136 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 2: in all of the areas that make for a high score. 137 00:08:56,276 --> 00:08:58,876 Speaker 2: There aren't a lot of white people on campus. The 138 00:08:58,916 --> 00:09:02,476 Speaker 2: tuition is low compared with top liberal arts colleges. It's 139 00:09:02,556 --> 00:09:06,116 Speaker 2: nineteen thousand dollars a year, and Dillard's endowment is a 140 00:09:06,156 --> 00:09:09,716 Speaker 2: minuscule one hundred and five million dollars. A top rank 141 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:13,956 Speaker 2: school like Williams College has two billion more dollars in 142 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 2: the bank than Dillard. The next thing US News really 143 00:09:20,276 --> 00:09:25,116 Speaker 2: cares about is graduation rates. What percentage of a freshman 144 00:09:25,196 --> 00:09:32,556 Speaker 2: class get their degree within six years. US News rewards 145 00:09:32,556 --> 00:09:36,676 Speaker 2: schools for having high graduation rates, and they punish schools 146 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:40,676 Speaker 2: for low graduation rates on the theory that a school's 147 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:45,076 Speaker 2: graduation rate tells you something about how well it educates 148 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:51,436 Speaker 2: and inspires its students. This metric seems to make a 149 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 2: lot more sense than peer assessment scores. Right at Dillard, 150 00:09:55,196 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 2: the graduation rate is around fifty percent. How can we 151 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:02,076 Speaker 2: call a school good if half its students don't graduate? 152 00:10:03,036 --> 00:10:06,356 Speaker 2: But when I asked Walter Kimbro about this, here's what 153 00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 2: he said. 154 00:10:08,036 --> 00:10:09,876 Speaker 4: I was doing one of my one meetings with a 155 00:10:09,876 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 4: freshman student last week and the question I asked, what's 156 00:10:13,596 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 4: the best part about being a college student? 157 00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:15,996 Speaker 8: Was the worst part? 158 00:10:16,196 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 4: And she said the worst part for her was Thanksgiving 159 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:21,316 Speaker 4: and Christmas. It's like why, she said, because I had 160 00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 4: to figure out what I was gonna do, where I 161 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:25,236 Speaker 4: could live. It was very powerful the way that she said. 162 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 4: I was like, because I was like, what. 163 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:27,036 Speaker 1: Do you mean? 164 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:29,556 Speaker 4: Why is that the worst part of college? She said, 165 00:10:29,556 --> 00:10:30,876 Speaker 4: I didn't know where I was gonna stay. 166 00:10:32,116 --> 00:10:34,796 Speaker 2: Think of how difficult it must be for that student 167 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 2: to focus on staying in school. How can you plan 168 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 2: for the future when your life right now is so unstable? 169 00:10:41,916 --> 00:10:44,596 Speaker 2: And what happens when someone in your family gets ill, 170 00:10:44,876 --> 00:10:47,276 Speaker 2: or loses their job, or has an accident, and all 171 00:10:47,316 --> 00:10:49,796 Speaker 2: of a sudden, the cost of sending you to school 172 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:54,756 Speaker 2: becomes overwhelming. If the average family income of your student 173 00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:57,876 Speaker 2: body is just over thirty thousand dollars a year, there's 174 00:10:57,996 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 2: going to be a lot of that. 175 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:03,636 Speaker 4: For a school like us that you're seventy five percent 176 00:11:03,636 --> 00:11:06,316 Speaker 4: pail grant eligible. If you have a six year graduation 177 00:11:06,396 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 4: rate that's over fifty percent, it's almost miraculous because there 178 00:11:09,756 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 4: are so many other factors that I just can't control. 179 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:15,636 Speaker 4: I can't control those family pieces, and I just can't 180 00:11:15,636 --> 00:11:16,156 Speaker 4: control that. 181 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 2: Just for contrast, the graduation rate at a school like Boden, 182 00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 2: currently number six on the Liberal Arts College Rankings, ninety 183 00:11:24,756 --> 00:11:30,796 Speaker 2: five percent. Everyone graduates, maybe because one in every five 184 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:33,876 Speaker 2: students at Boden comes from a family with an income 185 00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 2: in the top one percent. The worst part of Christmas 186 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:42,396 Speaker 2: for a Boden student is deciding which of their houses 187 00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:45,636 Speaker 2: to go to. No one's dropping out of Boden, not 188 00:11:45,756 --> 00:11:50,156 Speaker 2: with Daddy paying for everything. Graduation rates don't tell you 189 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:52,556 Speaker 2: how good a school is. They tell you what kind 190 00:11:52,596 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 2: of students a school is admitting. My first conclusion in 191 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 2: the Project Dillard investigation, why is Dillard at the bottom 192 00:12:02,436 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 2: of the rankings? They enroll the wrong kind of student. 193 00:12:16,196 --> 00:12:20,596 Speaker 2: Halfway through Project Dillard, I had the idea of conducting 194 00:12:20,916 --> 00:12:26,196 Speaker 2: a thought experiment. Most of the things that US News 195 00:12:26,236 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 2: cares about have to do with money. That's how you 196 00:12:29,836 --> 00:12:34,316 Speaker 2: raise your academic reputation score. Wealthy students are also way 197 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:37,836 Speaker 2: more likely to graduate from school. That boosts your school 198 00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:40,796 Speaker 2: as well. But there are many other variables in the 199 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:44,316 Speaker 2: US News rankings that are also really just about how 200 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:47,316 Speaker 2: much money a school has in the bank. Variables like 201 00:12:47,796 --> 00:12:54,276 Speaker 2: faculty resources, financial resources per student, average, alumni giving rate, 202 00:12:54,636 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 2: graduate indebtedness, and on and on. Since I was curious 203 00:13:00,476 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 2: about this, I asked Robert Morse, who runs the US 204 00:13:04,276 --> 00:13:08,516 Speaker 2: News rankings, what is the basis for the assumption that 205 00:13:08,556 --> 00:13:11,676 Speaker 2: the more money school has, the better quality of the 206 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:13,156 Speaker 2: education the school is providing. 207 00:13:14,676 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 9: There's a number of points. One is that you hardly 208 00:13:18,236 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 9: ever hear a college president say cut my budgets, take 209 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:27,836 Speaker 9: away my programs, fire my faculty, reduce my sports, and 210 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 9: I'll be a better school. It's rare that you see 211 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:37,716 Speaker 9: higher education leaders say that less equals more. So this 212 00:13:37,876 --> 00:13:43,316 Speaker 9: is spending for students on academic programs and on aspects 213 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,596 Speaker 9: of the education like that you have a greater chance 214 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:50,396 Speaker 9: of having a richer academic experience. And if you have 215 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 9: less spending, then you're going to have less. And we're 216 00:13:53,716 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 9: saying that in this case, more is better than less. 217 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 2: More is better than less. I mean, look, I mean, 218 00:14:05,116 --> 00:14:08,396 Speaker 2: let's assume I'm getting paid two hundred thousand dollars a year. 219 00:14:08,396 --> 00:14:10,756 Speaker 2: If you can say, Malcolm, if I gave you four 220 00:14:10,836 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 2: hundred thousand, would you be a better writer? I would 221 00:14:13,316 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 2: say absolutely, I would be better. But that would be false. 222 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:21,796 Speaker 2: There's no correlation. But how much you pay Malcolm, how 223 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 2: good Malcolm's writing is? 224 00:14:25,236 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 9: Right? But that's I'm not sure that analogy works in 225 00:14:28,716 --> 00:14:33,956 Speaker 9: this particular case because you're dealing with, you know, a budget, 226 00:14:34,156 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 9: and it's buying many different things than one human's human 227 00:14:41,196 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 9: being skill. In your analogy, your article isn't going to 228 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 9: be any better, even though maybe you'd get some incentive 229 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:50,836 Speaker 9: to work more. 230 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:54,876 Speaker 2: Oh right, all right, For the purposes of this thought experiment, 231 00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 2: let's stipulate, as the lawyer say that more money is 232 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:01,996 Speaker 2: better than less money and simply proceed with the question 233 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:05,236 Speaker 2: of what would happen if Walter kimbro were to wake 234 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 2: up one morning and decide to do things the US 235 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:12,316 Speaker 2: News way. Let's further stipulate that after this change of heart, 236 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:16,676 Speaker 2: a miracle occurs and someone gives Dillard University a lot 237 00:15:16,676 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 2: of money, Let's say two billion, a nice round number. 238 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:25,556 Speaker 2: What happens in the real world If you gave Walter 239 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 2: Kimbroke two billion, the first thing he would do is 240 00:15:28,956 --> 00:15:32,516 Speaker 2: make Dillard bigger, give more students the benefit of a 241 00:15:32,556 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 2: Dillard education. The problem is that yet another of the 242 00:15:37,156 --> 00:15:42,356 Speaker 2: categories employed by the US News algorithm is student selectivity. 243 00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 2: How academically, elite is the freshman class you admit each year, 244 00:15:47,996 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 2: And the fastest way to an elite freshman class, of course, 245 00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:54,876 Speaker 2: is to let in as few freshmen as possible. 246 00:15:55,436 --> 00:15:56,116 Speaker 3: So I give you. 247 00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:59,156 Speaker 2: Two billion, you would that would improve your scores on 248 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 2: their ranking. But if your goal is to get bigger, 249 00:16:02,356 --> 00:16:04,276 Speaker 2: then they would. They would ding you for that. 250 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:05,716 Speaker 7: They would hurt me, they would hurt you. 251 00:16:05,756 --> 00:16:08,516 Speaker 2: They don't want you to get Bigger's right, But that's 252 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:14,516 Speaker 2: Walters nuts. Yep, that's right, Yes, it's nuts, of course 253 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:17,876 Speaker 2: it is. And if you're confused right now, join the club. 254 00:16:18,476 --> 00:16:20,916 Speaker 2: But let's put all that aside for a moment. We're 255 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:24,036 Speaker 2: doing a thought experiment here a product Dillard, and we're 256 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:30,716 Speaker 2: going to play by every rule for Dillard to rise 257 00:16:30,756 --> 00:16:33,796 Speaker 2: in the rankings. It's pretty clear that the school needs 258 00:16:33,836 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 2: to attract a different kind of student, the kind who 259 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 2: is wealthy enough that they give lots of money to 260 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:42,916 Speaker 2: the endowment once they graduate. The kind who isn't worried 261 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:45,196 Speaker 2: about when they're going to eat and where they're going 262 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:48,636 Speaker 2: to sleep, the kind who checks all the US news boxes. 263 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:53,316 Speaker 2: And how do you attract that kind of student amenities? 264 00:16:55,316 --> 00:16:57,876 Speaker 2: The big part of this is that in order to 265 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:00,476 Speaker 2: raise their ranking, this little black school in the South 266 00:17:00,796 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 2: has got to start attracting more rich white students. So 267 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:06,596 Speaker 2: my idea is, well, the only way they're going to 268 00:17:06,636 --> 00:17:10,516 Speaker 2: attract rich white students is if they have fanciers. I 269 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 2: called up my old friend Vanessa, she's in the luxury 270 00:17:14,196 --> 00:17:15,516 Speaker 2: real estate business. 271 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 8: But why, I'm sorry, stupid question, but why does a 272 00:17:21,116 --> 00:17:22,796 Speaker 8: rich white student raise a ranking? 273 00:17:24,436 --> 00:17:27,236 Speaker 3: Oh my god, such a good question you have asked. 274 00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 3: You have asked the question which is the central question 275 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:35,236 Speaker 3: all this, which is you're absolutely right, it makes no sense. 276 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:38,076 Speaker 3: Why does it matter that you have rich white students. 277 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 3: For some reason, the US News algorithm is calculated in 278 00:17:42,076 --> 00:17:44,436 Speaker 3: such a way that if you have rich white students, 279 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:44,996 Speaker 3: you do better. 280 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:47,436 Speaker 2: But I wanted to get rich kids. You have to 281 00:17:48,596 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 2: you have to induce them to come to your school. 282 00:17:51,516 --> 00:17:55,036 Speaker 2: And I would like to talk about an inducement, which 283 00:17:55,116 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 2: is suppose we were to build at Dillard and incredibly 284 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 2: fancy dorm the daughter of the hedge fun guy from 285 00:18:03,836 --> 00:18:06,636 Speaker 2: New York. I wanted to walk in and say, Wow, 286 00:18:06,756 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 2: how much is that gonna cost? What are we talking 287 00:18:08,676 --> 00:18:09,076 Speaker 2: about here? 288 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:11,516 Speaker 8: You're saying that you want to provide a dorm that 289 00:18:11,716 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 8: looks like a hotel suite that they stay in when 290 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 8: they're with their parents on a luxurious vacation. Yes, and 291 00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:23,876 Speaker 8: what does that cost? Okay, So the way we calculate 292 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:30,836 Speaker 8: pricing is cost per key, right, So we spend a 293 00:18:30,996 --> 00:18:35,636 Speaker 8: minimum of two million dollars per key, not including the land. 294 00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:40,876 Speaker 2: Two million dollars per key. That's what the wealthiest are 295 00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:44,196 Speaker 2: expecting in terms of high quality living these days. 296 00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:50,716 Speaker 8: We have very fine materials that we have throughout the rooms. 297 00:18:50,956 --> 00:18:53,956 Speaker 8: You will never see dry wall, for example, no. 298 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:55,236 Speaker 3: Drywall, so no dry wall. 299 00:18:55,396 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 2: A two million per key. 300 00:18:57,916 --> 00:19:00,796 Speaker 3: Dry wall is like the boat dirty word. 301 00:19:01,396 --> 00:19:05,556 Speaker 8: Another example that we're doing is swimming pools on the 302 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:11,756 Speaker 8: terraces recessed into the balcony. Oh wow, and in every room. 303 00:19:12,396 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 8: That's one of our new projects. 304 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:16,116 Speaker 3: So wait, you could do this. You could totally do 305 00:19:16,236 --> 00:19:20,116 Speaker 3: this in the ORMs. Of course, to go to our college. 306 00:19:20,116 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 2: Example, the college came to you and said, I want 307 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:25,796 Speaker 2: a dorm for two I want a wow doorm for 308 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:30,196 Speaker 2: two hundred students. You think you could do that for 309 00:19:30,316 --> 00:19:31,876 Speaker 2: four hundred million dollars. 310 00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 8: Yeah, I think we could. 311 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, you think you could. The kid, the eighteen year 312 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:39,956 Speaker 3: old's going to walk in with daddy, and Daddy's going 313 00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 3: to say, okay, you know, little what's her name? I 314 00:19:43,556 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 3: don't know, Jenny, Jenny. Jenny. Jenny's going to be happy here. 315 00:19:49,796 --> 00:19:52,796 Speaker 8: Jenny's going to be happy. 316 00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:58,876 Speaker 2: We were laughing about this because it's absurd, right, But 317 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:02,676 Speaker 2: just imagine that Walter Kimbro actually built the dorm that 318 00:20:02,756 --> 00:20:06,516 Speaker 2: Vanessa was imagining, and that little Jenny, the hedge funder's 319 00:20:06,596 --> 00:20:09,676 Speaker 2: daughter and all the other little Jenny's out there, decided 320 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 2: as a result to come to Dillard. Dillard would start 321 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 2: to rise immediately in the rankings. Why because those Jennies 322 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 2: are all going to graduate and the algorithm will love that. 323 00:20:23,116 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 2: And after graduation, the Jennies will make generous gifts to 324 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:31,356 Speaker 2: Dillard's endowment because Walter will give them naming rights for 325 00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:36,156 Speaker 2: the brand new Dillard University students BA. Then the other 326 00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 2: college presidents will google that big endowment number and start 327 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:44,196 Speaker 2: to give Dillard a higher peer assessment score, which will 328 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:48,276 Speaker 2: in turn lead to more Jennies taking Dillard seriously, until 329 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:51,996 Speaker 2: the parents of Beverly Hills and Palm Beach and the 330 00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:55,516 Speaker 2: Upper east Side will casually let it drop at the 331 00:20:55,556 --> 00:21:00,116 Speaker 2: country club. That can you believe it, Little Jenny has 332 00:21:00,116 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 2: gotten into Dillard. Remember Kelly McConville of Red College, the 333 00:21:08,676 --> 00:21:12,156 Speaker 2: leader of my consulting band of hackers, A call her 334 00:21:12,196 --> 00:21:15,076 Speaker 2: back in to double check the math run the numbers 335 00:21:15,116 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 2: on a Dillard full of Jennies through her simulated US 336 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:19,796 Speaker 2: News algorithm. 337 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 10: So Williams is the top ranked liberal arts college with 338 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 10: an endowment of over two point eight billion dollars. So 339 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:33,676 Speaker 10: if we take Williams financials and put them in for Dillard, 340 00:21:34,156 --> 00:21:38,876 Speaker 10: Dillard goes from one sixty one to being tied for 341 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 10: one oh three. 342 00:21:40,276 --> 00:21:43,636 Speaker 2: So wait, this is positives is interesting. Yeah, So we 343 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:50,276 Speaker 2: haven't changed any of the fundamentals in the classroom. We 344 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 2: haven't changed the enthusiasm of the teachers. We haven't changed, 345 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:57,996 Speaker 2: you know, the spirit of the students. We haven't changed. 346 00:21:58,036 --> 00:22:01,196 Speaker 2: All we've done is that we have plunked a very 347 00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:05,836 Speaker 2: large amount of money in the bank account of Dillard exactly. 348 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 2: That vaults them from the bottom of the pass to 349 00:22:09,916 --> 00:22:13,236 Speaker 2: essentially the middle. Yep, Okay, okay, let's keep going. 350 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 10: Yeah, so next you gave us a slightly trickier one 351 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 10: where we're now going to layer on top of all 352 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:20,836 Speaker 10: that the test scores. 353 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 2: Oh I nearly forgot test scores another key US news factor. 354 00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:30,276 Speaker 2: In all likelihood, our Jennies had private tutors to help 355 00:22:30,316 --> 00:22:33,476 Speaker 2: them raise their SAT scores. They went to private prep 356 00:22:33,476 --> 00:22:38,316 Speaker 2: schools that take standardized tests. Really seriously, this is a 357 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 2: variable with Jenny's name written all over it. So what 358 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:45,476 Speaker 2: if Walter Kimbro told all of his lower achieving students 359 00:22:45,476 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 2: to go home and rebuilt all of Dillard around only 360 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:54,236 Speaker 2: the highest test score Jennis? What would that do for 361 00:22:54,316 --> 00:22:55,116 Speaker 2: the school's rank? 362 00:22:55,916 --> 00:23:00,276 Speaker 10: Now, they went from one to oh three to forty three, 363 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 10: So that went up sixty slabs just by adjusting those 364 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:06,876 Speaker 10: two variables. 365 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:12,036 Speaker 2: Just like, to hell with this antiquated notion of trying 366 00:23:12,076 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 2: to educate a large swath of students who want to 367 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:20,396 Speaker 2: come to New Orleans to attend a HBCU. We're just 368 00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:23,916 Speaker 2: cream skimming from now on, right, Okay, can we get 369 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 2: them higher than forty three? She said, sure we can, 370 00:23:28,316 --> 00:23:30,796 Speaker 2: and began going through the remaining items on the US 371 00:23:30,836 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 2: News checklist, and lo and behold, this was a test 372 00:23:34,636 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 2: our shiny New Dillard. Haste. I mean, teach your student ratios. 373 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 2: They're tiny. Now we told half our students to go home. 374 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 2: Faculty resources ginormous. We're loaded. 375 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:51,996 Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know what school we're looking at now, 376 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:56,076 Speaker 6: but this school, after we Jared cranked all of those things, 377 00:23:56,116 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 6: turned all of those dials, means this New Dillard is 378 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 6: ranked third. 379 00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:03,156 Speaker 3: Wow. 380 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:06,516 Speaker 6: So that is how we can get Dillard into the 381 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:09,836 Speaker 6: tippy top tier of the liberal arts colleges. 382 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:20,436 Speaker 2: So it's williams Amherst Dillard swarthwarw Yes project. Dillard has 383 00:24:20,476 --> 00:24:23,836 Speaker 2: given us a new school with a very different soundtrack. 384 00:24:24,716 --> 00:24:28,316 Speaker 2: Can we convince Yale to lend them the Whiffin poofs. 385 00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:32,236 Speaker 7: Are a latche who. 386 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 2: Have a preacher's kid like Walter Kimbro, would know the 387 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 2: Biblical lesson here Mark eight thirty six. For what shall 388 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 2: it profit a man if he shall gain the whole 389 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 2: world and lose his own soul? God have mercion. 390 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:52,716 Speaker 8: Such as sweet. 391 00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:08,996 Speaker 2: When Walter Kimbro gave me his tour of the Dillard camp, 392 00:25:09,796 --> 00:25:12,756 Speaker 2: he talked about the things that made Dillard special. 393 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:15,196 Speaker 4: We have certain things. When I got here, I realized 394 00:25:15,196 --> 00:25:17,596 Speaker 4: that we have this physics program and people then talk 395 00:25:17,636 --> 00:25:21,116 Speaker 4: about it that at the time I think was number 396 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:23,716 Speaker 4: two in the country for producing African Americans who get 397 00:25:23,836 --> 00:25:26,476 Speaker 4: undergraduate degrees in physics. I think right now we rank 398 00:25:26,596 --> 00:25:28,836 Speaker 4: number three, but if you do it per capita, we're 399 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:30,636 Speaker 4: number one. We've been number one for a while. 400 00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:36,996 Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, Dillard produced thirteen African American physics grads, 401 00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 2: according to Department of Education numbers, Harvard produced one. In 402 00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 2: the past ten years, Dillard has graduated thirty five black 403 00:25:46,516 --> 00:25:51,356 Speaker 2: physics grads, Harvard five. Now you might say that's just 404 00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 2: because Harvard doesn't have a lot of black students. That's 405 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:59,396 Speaker 2: not true. Harvard admitted over three hundred black undergraduates this year, 406 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 2: which is about the same as Dillard. Okay, is it 407 00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 2: because Dillard's students are smarter than Harvard's, more capable of 408 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:11,316 Speaker 2: handling physics? Not true, Harvard's Harvard they get the best 409 00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:15,076 Speaker 2: high schoolers in the nation, So why is Dillard doing 410 00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 2: so much better? It turns out that this same pattern 411 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 2: is true of HBCUs as a group. When it comes 412 00:26:22,996 --> 00:26:28,356 Speaker 2: to producing graduates in STEM science, math, engineering, and technology, 413 00:26:28,676 --> 00:26:33,076 Speaker 2: Black schools punch way above their weight. Walter Kimbro brought 414 00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:36,116 Speaker 2: up the other big HBCU in New Orleans just down 415 00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:40,316 Speaker 2: the road from Dillard, Xavier University. Not terribly big or 416 00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:40,996 Speaker 2: rich either. 417 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 4: Xavier wasn't form until nineteen twenty five, I believe, but 418 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:48,276 Speaker 4: they've really gained a no variety because they really leaned 419 00:26:48,316 --> 00:26:50,836 Speaker 4: in on sending the people to medical school, and so 420 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:53,316 Speaker 4: they send more people to medical school African America's any 421 00:26:53,316 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 4: school in the country. 422 00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:59,596 Speaker 2: The explanation seems to be that at most schools, there's 423 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 2: a huge problem in STEM with what educators referred to 424 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:07,596 Speaker 2: as leakiness. Students start out majoring in science and math, 425 00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:11,596 Speaker 2: but then they change may and the problem is most 426 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 2: pronounced at selective schools. 427 00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 7: These institutions cream off the top, so to speak. 428 00:27:18,316 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 2: That's Mitchell Chang, educational researcher at UCLA who has studied 429 00:27:22,716 --> 00:27:23,236 Speaker 2: the problem. 430 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:28,676 Speaker 7: And those who don't make it to the top find 431 00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 7: themselves losing the confidence to continue and leave STEM, the 432 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 7: STEM field and their pursuit of a STEM degree altogether. 433 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:41,916 Speaker 2: But at the one hundred or so historically black colleges 434 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 2: in the United States, places like Dillard, the STEM pipeline 435 00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:48,836 Speaker 2: isn't leaky. If I was a Martian looking at this, 436 00:27:48,916 --> 00:27:51,676 Speaker 2: I would say, well, Harvard should be able to identify 437 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:54,796 Speaker 2: every one of these struggling students and encourage them and 438 00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:57,556 Speaker 2: help them and tutor them and get them through. That 439 00:27:57,596 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 2: doesn't happen. 440 00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:04,156 Speaker 7: I think you kind of hit on an important factor here, 441 00:28:04,796 --> 00:28:10,836 Speaker 7: the difference between what HBCUs do and what these highly 442 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:16,676 Speaker 7: selective often referred to as predominantly white institutions or pwis do, 443 00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:22,676 Speaker 7: And one is, you know, more geared toward creaming off 444 00:28:22,716 --> 00:28:26,956 Speaker 7: the top, and the other one being much more developmental, 445 00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 7: meeting students where they're at and lifting them and developing 446 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:35,396 Speaker 7: them to achieve their potential. 447 00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:39,916 Speaker 2: Meeting students where they're at. Mitchell Chang is talking about 448 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:45,916 Speaker 2: academic culture, about places that care and at this HBCUs 449 00:28:45,996 --> 00:28:53,756 Speaker 2: seem to excel. While I was visiting Dillard's campus, Walter 450 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:56,116 Speaker 2: Kimber arranged for me to meet a group of students 451 00:28:56,636 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 2: eight or syllabus around a conference table, and this is 452 00:29:00,996 --> 00:29:04,236 Speaker 2: all the students ended up talking about what it felt 453 00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 2: like to be at Dillard. 454 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 11: I could call it doctor Kimber right now and say hey, 455 00:29:09,156 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 11: I'm doing this, can you help me? And he'll answer 456 00:29:11,116 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 11: the phone. It's not straight to voicemail. So I think 457 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 11: that's a really big hug. My advisors are the best. 458 00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:19,156 Speaker 11: They invested me. If I missed class, she will call 459 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:22,796 Speaker 11: me right after class is over to make sure I'm okay. 460 00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:25,076 Speaker 11: One and two, Why did I miss class? Because it's 461 00:29:25,076 --> 00:29:26,236 Speaker 11: important to go to class. 462 00:29:26,316 --> 00:29:28,556 Speaker 12: I feel appreciated, Like I mean, I can name pretty 463 00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:31,196 Speaker 12: much all the administration in this room, or like I 464 00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 12: could walk in there and I could see somebody I 465 00:29:32,996 --> 00:29:36,556 Speaker 12: know for sure and just have a genuine connection relationship. 466 00:29:36,636 --> 00:29:39,636 Speaker 12: It's a true family, and I feel like as much 467 00:29:39,676 --> 00:29:40,916 Speaker 12: as I pour in, they pour back. 468 00:29:41,796 --> 00:29:44,356 Speaker 2: Another student talked about how if you'd gone to a 469 00:29:44,356 --> 00:29:47,876 Speaker 2: big university, things happening back home might have gotten in 470 00:29:47,916 --> 00:29:48,436 Speaker 2: a way. 471 00:29:48,836 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't be in school anymore. Unfortunately, because my 472 00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:57,236 Speaker 1: freshman year I experienced a loss in my family and 473 00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:01,556 Speaker 1: he was very, very difficult, And had it not been 474 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:07,316 Speaker 1: for the faculty and the other students here who cared 475 00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:10,596 Speaker 1: about me, like some of the students here sitting next 476 00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:12,276 Speaker 1: to me, I don't think that I would still be 477 00:30:12,316 --> 00:30:12,796 Speaker 1: in school. 478 00:30:15,196 --> 00:30:18,556 Speaker 2: Do students at other small schools feel this way, of 479 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:22,956 Speaker 2: course they do. Students at Williams and Amherston's Swarthmore probably 480 00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:26,676 Speaker 2: feel part of a family too, But historically black colleges 481 00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:30,916 Speaker 2: have managed to take that community feeling and translate it 482 00:30:31,116 --> 00:30:33,596 Speaker 2: into a very effective academic culture. 483 00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:36,716 Speaker 7: And they're doing it in a way where they're not 484 00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:41,116 Speaker 7: getting the same talent pool. They're getting students who are 485 00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:45,516 Speaker 7: more likely to be first generation students from lower income 486 00:30:45,556 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 7: families and who are not as well prepared to pursue 487 00:30:50,676 --> 00:30:54,196 Speaker 7: a science degree. So it's quite remarkable. 488 00:30:55,036 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 2: A school helps its students succeed at the subject they 489 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 2: came to college to pursue. It creates a culture geared 490 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 2: to helping students reach their potential, and it does all 491 00:31:06,796 --> 00:31:09,516 Speaker 2: that for a price that working families can have forward 492 00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 2: on a charming campus in the middle of an amazing city. 493 00:31:14,116 --> 00:31:17,436 Speaker 2: Doesn't that sound like the definition of an elite school. 494 00:31:22,676 --> 00:31:26,436 Speaker 2: Some years ago, Walter Kimbro heard that an editor from 495 00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:29,316 Speaker 2: US News was coming to speak at a nearby event. 496 00:31:29,796 --> 00:31:31,596 Speaker 4: Well, I was like, cleit a schedule, I've got to 497 00:31:31,596 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 4: go here the US News guy. And I was like, 498 00:31:33,636 --> 00:31:35,116 Speaker 4: and I got to have a chance to ask him 499 00:31:35,116 --> 00:31:38,316 Speaker 4: a question. So I did, and I said, you know, 500 00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:42,276 Speaker 4: how do we, you know, justify having a ranking system 501 00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 4: that basically measures privilege? And if I want to have 502 00:31:46,316 --> 00:31:48,636 Speaker 4: a good ranking, I need to make sure I keep 503 00:31:48,676 --> 00:31:54,356 Speaker 4: out poor students, black students, part time students, non traditional students. 504 00:31:54,556 --> 00:31:58,236 Speaker 4: If I do those things, my ranking is high. 505 00:31:58,276 --> 00:31:59,356 Speaker 3: And he couldn't. 506 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:01,796 Speaker 4: Answer the question. He said, well, you know, it's America 507 00:32:01,916 --> 00:32:05,076 Speaker 4: and this is how we measure merrit and blah blah blah. 508 00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 4: There's an older gentleman afterwards came and laughed at me. 509 00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:10,676 Speaker 4: He said he didn't want to answer that question because 510 00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:13,436 Speaker 4: that's the whole game. It's like, it's just the formula. 511 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:24,596 Speaker 2: It is the formula. Rankings place us all in a 512 00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:28,356 Speaker 2: world with a clear set of rules that more is 513 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:31,636 Speaker 2: better than less, rich is better than poor, white is 514 00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:34,636 Speaker 2: better than black. None of us think we want to 515 00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:38,156 Speaker 2: be part of that world. But when college presidents dutifully 516 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:40,916 Speaker 2: send in their forms every year to US News, when 517 00:32:40,996 --> 00:32:44,316 Speaker 2: high school students battle with each other over who gets 518 00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:47,076 Speaker 2: to go to the higher ranked school, when parents boast 519 00:32:47,116 --> 00:32:49,876 Speaker 2: about how Jenny got into this school or that school, 520 00:32:50,476 --> 00:32:56,476 Speaker 2: we're all complicit in the game. Will you promise me 521 00:32:56,516 --> 00:32:59,276 Speaker 2: that you'll just stand up and just say, ladies and gentlemen, 522 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 2: can we all just agree to drop out of the 523 00:33:02,076 --> 00:33:03,116 Speaker 2: US News thing right now? 524 00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I would love yeah. 525 00:33:04,516 --> 00:33:06,596 Speaker 4: But they're gonna be folks who, like I said, they are, 526 00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 4: so this is this important. 527 00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:12,236 Speaker 3: You're a persuasive guy. I feel like you could do that. 528 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:13,076 Speaker 4: You think I could do it. 529 00:33:13,276 --> 00:33:15,316 Speaker 3: You have a little bit of your dad, and you 530 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:16,796 Speaker 3: just just stand up and preach. 531 00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:19,636 Speaker 4: Yeah, I wouldn't need to have that. 532 00:33:19,956 --> 00:33:20,636 Speaker 8: I need to have that. 533 00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:23,036 Speaker 4: So from it from the mount to really try to 534 00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:23,716 Speaker 4: make it happen. 535 00:33:47,236 --> 00:33:50,676 Speaker 2: Revision's History is produced by Mio Nobel, Leeming, Gestu, and 536 00:33:50,756 --> 00:33:54,716 Speaker 2: Jacob Smith, with Elowise Linton and On a Name. Our 537 00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:58,636 Speaker 2: editor is Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Skara, mastering 538 00:33:58,676 --> 00:34:03,636 Speaker 2: by Flaun Williams, engineering by Martin Gonzalez, fact checking by 539 00:34:03,676 --> 00:34:08,076 Speaker 2: Amy Gaines Special thanks to the Pushkin Crew Had a Fame, 540 00:34:08,236 --> 00:34:13,876 Speaker 2: Carly McLear, Maya Knigg, Danielle Lacon, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 541 00:34:14,156 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 2: Nicole Morano, Jason Gambrel, and of course, Jacob Weisberg. Special 542 00:34:19,396 --> 00:34:23,756 Speaker 2: thanks also to the Dillard University Choir and their director, 543 00:34:23,876 --> 00:34:33,436 Speaker 2: Samuel Davenport. I'm Malcolm Bammoll. Don't forget my latest book, 544 00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 2: The Bomber Mafia, which is an expansion of several episodes 545 00:34:37,516 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 2: from the last season of Revisionist History. You can find 546 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,956 Speaker 2: it wherever books are sold, but by the audiobook at 547 00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:47,756 Speaker 2: Bombermafia dot com and you'll get a bonus listener's guide, 548 00:34:47,796 --> 00:34:50,436 Speaker 2: and you can listen in the podcast app you're using 549 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:50,716 Speaker 2: now