1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind? 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: today we're going to be talking about that hole in 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: your memory before the earliest one you can produce, also 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: known as infantile amnesia. And hey, listeners, you were promised 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: you would be getting some baby looked at Me topics 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: this year. My wife and I had a baby this 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: past October, and I think many of you have been 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: practically daring me to embark on indulgent dad topics. But 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: here we've arrived at one because so I think the 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: way I got here was recently we have started spending 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of time trying to make a five month 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: old baby laugh. Rob, I don't know how much experience 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: you have with this, like the parent comedian routine. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: a lot of hours clocked on that particular stand up gig. Well, 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: sometime recently Rachel figured out what our baby's favorite genre 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: of comedy was, at least for that day, and it 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: was a textile gravity comedy. It was the act was 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: you hold a cloth up in the air and then 21 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: you drop the cloth on the baby, and when the 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: cloth falls down and hits the baby, this is hilarious. 23 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: It was creating these storms of laughter from another dimension, 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: truly riveting experience, at least for us. But I started 25 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: to wonder, like, why is this funny? And of course 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask her, but she's a five month 27 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: old baby, not talking yet. She can't explain why it's funny. 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I was thinking, one day, will I 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: be able to ask her, you remember when we were 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: dropping the cloth on you and you thought this was 31 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: so funny? Why was it funny? What was going through 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: your mind? But I just know that's probably never a 33 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: conversation that's going to go anywhere, because is she really 34 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: going to even remember this by the time she can 35 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: talk about it? Because I certainly don't have any memories 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: that I can bring up now from being five months old, 37 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: or even from being one year old, or even from 38 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: being two years old. I'm not sure, honestly what my 39 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: earliest memory is. But I know I don't have any 40 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: memories I feel confident about from the first several years 41 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: of my life. And it turns out this is not 42 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: unique to me. This is pretty common most people feel 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: this way, that they don't have any really solid memories 44 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: from the first several years of their lives, and so 45 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: I just got really interested in the question of why 46 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, I mean, unless you are biological mother 47 00:02:55,120 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: partook of the waters of life, she was pregnant, you're 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: probably not preborn like that. You're you're not gonna You're 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: not gonna remember these things. And we'll get into some 50 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: There is a certain amount of subjectiveness to all of this, 51 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: and we'll get into some of that, And certainly we'd 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: love to hear from any listeners out there who are 53 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: firm on this or feel firm on this and are like, yes, 54 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: I do remember being under the age of two, that 55 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But most of the research seems to 56 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: point in a different direction that most It seems like 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: most of what we remember is after a certain point 58 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: in our development, and that certainly your daughter has not 59 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: quite reached that point. Which is not to say that 60 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: she is not capable of memory, because I mean several 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: things I can notice. She recognizes faces, and she is 62 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: forming associations and routines. There's learning going on at this 63 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: point in a baby's development, and learning is to some 64 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: extent based on memory. So it's not that the brain 65 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: is not capable of any type of memory at this point, 66 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: but it seems that most people's brains at this point 67 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: are not producing episodic or autobiographical memories. Episodic memories meaning 68 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: memories of specific events or experiences, not producing sort of 69 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: narrative memories of that type that can be retrieved later 70 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: in life. I guess it's a question whether memories of 71 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: that type are formed at all. And so I don't 72 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: have any memories like that from infancy. Most people report 73 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: the same, and I cannot, honestly, from my memory, tell 74 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: you a story about anything that happened before I was 75 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: probably like four or five or so. You do bring 76 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: up the idea that there are a small number of 77 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: people who claim they can remember like being born or 78 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: being a baby. But even in those cases, while you can't, 79 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: you say, well, you're just wrong, you don't remember that. 80 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: I think it's reasonable to be skeptical about whether those 81 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: are real memories or just later confabulations. Yeah. Yeah, And 82 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: I on this note, I think it's important to remind 83 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: listeners that fabricated memories are by no means necessarily intentional. 84 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: They're numerous ways that we've discussed in the show before, 85 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: numerous ways that false memories may be encoded. There are 86 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: plenty of examples of cases where attested early childhood memories 87 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: can ultimately be attributed to stories one is told about 88 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: one's younger years and or something formed out of say 89 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: longing or desire for a certain framework. A lot of 90 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: stuff like that out there. And again we've touched on 91 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: many times before, like we alter memories every time we 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: draw them out, every time we get them out of 93 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: the storage, we get our fingerprints all over them, and 94 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: we change them. And then ultimately, the memories that are 95 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: most dear to us, the ones that we pull out 96 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: the most are the ones that are potentially the most altered, 97 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: right because the form in which they are stored in 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: memory is ultimately the form in which you rehearse them. 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's not a videotape. It is a it's 100 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: a constant sort of like rewriting over the same document. Yeah. Yeah, 101 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: And to your point, though, it is kind of ironic 102 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: that when you have a young child in the house 103 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: like this, for for parents, this is or even you know, 104 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: other people in that uh, that infant's life, these are 105 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: some of the dearest moments. You know, you're experiencing these 106 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: moments and you're like, this, this is you can feel 107 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: it embedding, you can you know this is something you're 108 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: never going to forget. And then on the other hand, 109 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: you have at least a very strong suspicion that the 110 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: child is not going to remember it the way that 111 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: you remember it. Uh and uh, and it's a it's 112 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: so it's something that I know that we my wife 113 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: and I talked a lot about with our son when 114 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: he when he was much younger. And sometimes my son 115 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: will comment on this because when your child gets over, 116 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: you're always like, well do you remember this? Do you 117 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: remember that? Or I remember when this happened, but I 118 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: know you don't remember it. And so there are a 119 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: lot of conversations like that. And then sometimes we'll be 120 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: on a trip and our son, at this point, who's 121 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: almost eleven, he'll comment like, oh, well, that baby's not 122 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: even going to remember that vacation. Uh, seeing like a 123 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: you know, another couple with an infant on a trip, 124 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: but it might as well not even take it. Yeah, well, 125 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: you know that's that's kind of the joke, right, like 126 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: just go ahead and put your baby in a closet 127 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: for a few years because they're not going to remember 128 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: these expensive trips. But of course you can't do that. 129 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: That's not how it works. You have to have these 130 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: moments in these trips. And and just because the baby's 131 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: not recalling it the way an adult recalls something later 132 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's not quote unquote remembered. Right, those 133 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: I mean those instead of say having autobiographical memories that 134 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: can later be retrieved in narrative form. Instead, the effect 135 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: of those experiences might be, say, structural impacts on the 136 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: development of the brain. Right. There's a great quote that 137 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: came up in a paper I'm going to source here 138 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: in a bet where they said something that you know 139 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: is quite simple. But I think is important to keep 140 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: in mind in this context and in memory context in general. 141 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: The brain remembers what it needs to remember, you know, 142 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: and and the memory demands on say a five month 143 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: old baby or a one year old child one and 144 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: a half year child are different. And therefore again it's 145 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: not there's nothing bad about not having not being able 146 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: to recall when you are two or three, or four 147 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: or five. It's just it's just what your brain needed 148 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: to do. And as we'll get into there are different 149 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: reasons for this. Yeah, so that's what we're going to 150 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: be exploring in this series. Questions like why don't most 151 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: people have specific autobiographical memories of being a baby? Do 152 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: we have episodic memories of infancy which get like erased 153 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: from the brain for some reason, or do we never 154 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: form episodic memories of baby life in the first place. 155 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: Obviously there's some kind of memory going on in very 156 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: young childhood and infancy, but maybe it just like it 157 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: doesn't have an episodic memory component. Maybe it can remember 158 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: associations and images, but maybe not like sequences of events. 159 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: Or maybe is there some weird third option, like we 160 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: do form memories and they're not exactly erased later, but 161 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: they're sort of fun or hard to retrieve for some reason. 162 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: That that's what got me really interested in this exploration today. 163 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: But of course I also got very interested in the 164 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: question of before people could do experiments on this, they 165 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: must have observed childhood development firsthand and had all kinds 166 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: of questions of this sort and probably come up with 167 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: answers whether or not those answers were accurate. Yeah, so yeah, 168 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: let's get in a little bit into just sort of 169 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: some of the history of this, some of some sort 170 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: of pre modern infant opinions, and also a little bit 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: of cultural variation. I think one of the things to 172 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: keep in mind about pre modern and pre scientific beliefs 173 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: about infant memory is that a lot of it is 174 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: going to come down to older beliefs about what human 175 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: infants are and what they are not, And so this 176 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: is all a mixture of things based on cultural tradition, 177 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: but also based on observation. I think it goes without 178 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: saying that that no matter what may have been ultimately 179 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: recorded in literature ancient people, you know, they would have 180 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: applied different insights and different ideas to the experience of babies, 181 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: but some things were obviously going to be the same. 182 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: Babies evoke strong emotions in us. That's just part of 183 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: the way we're hardwired. Babies require a great deal of care. 184 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: Babies cry baby is inherently can't communicate precisely. And also 185 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: human memories of early childhood or the lack thereof, would 186 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: have been identical more or less to what we have now, 187 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: or at least any differences are not going to be 188 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: based merely on say the the timeline, and we'll get 189 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: into some of that in a bit. Right. For example, 190 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: I would really not say that the current characteristics of 191 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: infantile amnesia or memory formation and very young children are say, 192 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: a result of the Internet or some other kind of 193 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: like technological context, especially because we know people have been 194 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: in the more modern era doing research on this going 195 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: back more than a hundred years, so before a lot 196 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: of the the sort of like communications and technology context 197 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: we live in today, people were asking hey, when are 198 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: people's first memories and what do they remember about childhood? 199 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: And the answers were largely the same as what we 200 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: get when we asked that today. Yeah. Yeah, So it 201 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like there's any expectation that there's been significant 202 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: variation in this, aside from variation that occurs for cultural 203 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: reasons and so forth. But again, a lot of this 204 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: is going to come down to how we think about babies, 205 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: and again it's it's it's interesting because on one hand, yes, 206 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: we have this inherent draw towards our own young and 207 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: to the young of our community, but at the same time, 208 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, you often hear people talk about older kids, 209 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: and you'll hear them say, well, you remember what it 210 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: was like when you were that age. You know, there's 211 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: a certain relatability in that. But generally they're not saying 212 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: this about infants or very young toddlers because by and 213 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: large we don't remember what it was it was like 214 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: to be that age. We only remember the stories of 215 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: what we were like at that age and so forth. Now, 216 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: examining how people in ancient times, for example, thought about babies, 217 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: thinking about pre modern and prescientific thinking into all of this, 218 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: you also have to take into account infant mortality rates, 219 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: which were often high in ancient times. And I realized 220 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: that infant mortality is not exactly a fun topic. But 221 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: some of the attitudes of the ancient world surrounding the 222 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: nature of infants is more sharply expressed over the subject, 223 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: or so it seems. So we are going to touch 224 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: on it a little bit, at least in passing. Yeah, 225 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: it's sort of unavoidable for most of human history, for 226 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: most people, just a major fact of life. Yeah, So 227 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: I looked at a few different sources about the understanding 228 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: of infants in ancient Greek and ancient Rome. In Childbirth 229 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: and infancy in Greek and Roman antiquity from twenty eleven 230 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: author Varneck Dason points out a number of interesting things 231 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: about how these ancient people seem to seem to have 232 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: considered young children based on the evidence we have to 233 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: go on today, and so I want to outline some 234 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: interesting points that they bring up. First of all, most 235 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: of what we know relates to elite children rather than 236 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: the lives of those born into lower classes or two 237 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: enslaved people. Also, we have to think about the terminology here. 238 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: This is fascinating, so you know, basically the infant toddler 239 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: dynamic and duality. It's it's interesting and potentially telling in 240 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: that changes in terminology may indicate changes in cultural understanding 241 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: of young children. So you know, certainly there's a difference 242 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: between an infant and a toddler, and we tend to 243 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: sort of we tend to mark that transition point. But 244 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: to what extent is that transition point born out in 245 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: a people's language, and at what point does the language 246 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: potentially shift, etc. Basically just sort of a larger background 247 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: topic to keep in mind. But the big point here 248 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: is that it's most helpful to think of childhood as 249 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: a journey, one that hits different milestones, goes through different stages, 250 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: and that and this in turn alters the way that 251 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: adults view the child and the degree to which they 252 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: can be integrated into society. Also, Dawson points out to quote, 253 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: in times of high infant mortality, these stages represented steps 254 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: for hope of survival and increasing parental bonding. We'll come 255 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: back to exactly what is meant by that, but basically 256 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: it comes down to, like, how does a culture deal 257 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: with the fact that there is a high infant mortality rate. 258 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: Is there more of a sort of pushing away of 259 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: kind of like a ultimately a stoic reaction, sort of 260 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: distancing of the infant from the society who are making 261 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: kind of a marginal state, or is there indeed still 262 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: a lot of bonding going on and so forth. Now, 263 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: with the Greek and Roman viewpoints, specifically, what we think 264 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: of as infancy would have probably ended at age two 265 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: or three, with you full weaning, increased ability to speak, 266 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: and at age three integration into practiced religion at least 267 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: at some degree. Now, medically speaking, it was previously supposed 268 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: that there was next to nothing in the literature of 269 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: ancient Greek ancient Rome to suggest that physicians were concerned 270 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: with babies, except in exceptional circumstances, it was thought that 271 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: babies in general were left to the midwives and the mothers. However, 272 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: Dawson stresses that this is no longer really a correct viewpoint, 273 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: based on numerous examples of writings that have come up 274 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: about say, essential diet and hygiene for babies. So I 275 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: think that's interesting representing there like a shift in our 276 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: modern understanding about ancient views on infants that they were 277 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: actually sometimes a more relevant object of what was considered medicine. Yeah, 278 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: there's sort of this, and we'll get into it more 279 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: than just a second here, But there was this understanding 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,119 Speaker 1: of the ancient world based on somethingificant evidence that basically 281 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: the ruling male elite we're saying, like babies that not 282 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: even worth your time, not worth my time anyway, call 283 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: me when it is old enough for me to care 284 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: about it, or if there's if it's exploding, then yes, 285 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: a physician may come and check out the child. That 286 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: sort of thing, because without a doubt, there seemed to 287 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: have been far less of a view of baby superiority 288 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: in ancient Greek and ancient Rome. Dawson writes the following 289 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: this is great quote from Hippocrates to late antiquity, babies 290 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: and toddlers are defined as a category of beings with 291 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: a special morphology and physiology. These characteristics are on the 292 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: whole negative. Newborn babies are generally described as imperfect, weak, 293 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: and ugly. Wow perfect yes, Oh no, this reminds me 294 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: of the story you've shared many times of your son 295 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: calling the cat a stupid baby or just a baby 296 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: maybe when it was just baby like baby is an adjective, 297 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: bemoji and just a solid burn. As a toddler, it's 298 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: like peak insult, imperfect, weak, and ugly. Yeah. Yeah, they 299 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: toddlers get it, and so did the grown learned men 300 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: of ancient Greece. So Dawson points a few specific authors 301 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: to underline these views. So m. Aristotle wrote that babies 302 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: quote are born in a more imperfect condition than any 303 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: other perfected animal, and also that they have poor eyesight. 304 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: Oh well, it depends on what Aristotle means by that. 305 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure the full context, But if he's making 306 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: a distinction between human beings and other animals, I think 307 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: that's a fair observation that human babies are more helpless 308 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: than the newborns of most other animal species. Yeah, absolutely, 309 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: I think I think that's what he's going for here. 310 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: There is there's another work on colors that is sometimes 311 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: attributed to Aristotle, and in this it's pointed out that 312 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: babies are ugly because or well it's much it's as ugly, 313 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: but it points out that there's essentially they're ugly because 314 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: they have red faces and little hair. Do you ever 315 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: get the feeling that like Aristotle might have been writing 316 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: about human babies the same way he was writing about 317 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: like sting rays. It's just like this is something he's 318 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: observed a couple of times and made a few notes about. Yeah, 319 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: I mean I've seen some pretty hairy little babies before, 320 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: so I mean they think it varies, yeah, but yes, 321 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: on the whole, they tend not die us half of 322 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: like a full head of hair or certainly a proper beard. Now. 323 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: Galen was one of numerous physicians to comment on the 324 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: seeming wax like malleability and weakness of the baby. Weakness 325 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: of the baby. Babies are so weak. They're they're weak, 326 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: and they're they're basically made out of wax. Like if 327 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: you don't handle them too much or you will change 328 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: their form completely. They do tend to be Doughey, yeah, 329 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: that's true. But also Galen, I can just tell this 330 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: guy did not spend much time holding a baby because, 331 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: like especially Galen probably had a beard. I've a beard. 332 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: When you feel the baby grabbed the beard and just 333 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: not leg this is the handle for the adult, and 334 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: it will pull until it has a fistful of beard hair. 335 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: You do not walk away with the impression of how 336 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: weak babies are. Aristotle also recorded that many babies die 337 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: within the first week and are therefore not named before 338 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: this period passes. And this is a kind of approach 339 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: to the first week or so of a child's life 340 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: that you see reflected in various cultures in various times. Meanwhile, 341 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: Plutarch just wonders if babies are in fact animals, because 342 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: they're more like vegetables. They're more like a plant. I mean, yeah, 343 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: plants cry at midnight, plants poop where they want to. 344 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: That's exactly what a plant is. Dason adds this line 345 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: here quote a mineral metaphor substitutes for the vegetable one. 346 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: And Chronosis myth who ate his children as soon as 347 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: they were born and thought a stone to be a 348 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: swaddled nursling. So you know, is it a baby? Is 349 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: it a stone? Like anyone can tell the difference, I guess. Yeah. 350 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: Is that supposed to be a comment on how like 351 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: how featureless and uninteresting babies are? Or is that myth's 352 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: supposed to be a like a joke about Chronos being stupid? Um? 353 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: I always I mean, granted I was as a modern 354 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: English speaking human. I'm not the the intended audience, I 355 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: guess for the myth, But I always interpreted it as 356 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: being like, he's just so consumed with this this need 357 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: to destroy his young. You know that he's just like 358 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: just gobbles him up without really tasting them, you know. Yeah, 359 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: it's more like down he's more machine now than man, 360 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: almost like a he's a baby eating machine. He barely 361 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: notices or or or has cognizance of what's going in 362 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: his mouth. Yeah. So, after expressing some of these again 363 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: aristocratic male opinions on babies recorded in the literature, I 364 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: think it's a good time to distress something that another 365 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: author drives home as well. And this is from the 366 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: work of Marine Carrol in Infant Death and Burial in 367 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: Roman Italy from twenty fifteen. She points out that we 368 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: base a lot of our understanding of this topic on 369 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: the writings of Stoic male aristocratic literary elite, and also 370 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: the arguments that the remains in Roman cemeteries seem to 371 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: bear this out. The I think quote unquote invisibility of 372 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: the young child in Roman cemeteries. Yeah, and unfortunately this 373 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: is true about a lot of things in the ancient world. 374 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: When you have to consult literary texts to get a 375 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: flavor of ancient life, that's necessarily going to be leaving 376 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff out because of the sexism of 377 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: like who could receive literary education and who was writing 378 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: texts and stuff at the time. You're you're going to 379 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: get a lot of aristocratic male perspective. Yeah, and and 380 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: certainly manufactory in Stoicism. And then also the fact that 381 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: maybe some of them did not know how much hair 382 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: baby had on average. You know, it's a it's it's 383 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: it's well worth taking into account. But on the other hand, 384 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: you do have this this argument that lines up with 385 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: things with the writings of say Plutarch, who said that 386 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: infants quote have no part in earth or earthly things, 387 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: and therefore they don't require any of the rights normally 388 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: performed for the dead, So you know, there's just kind 389 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: of this um push and pull over, like what is 390 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: the status of the of the infant? And we can 391 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: understand like this like stoic approach that's like, look, there's 392 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: a chance that things aren't going to go well, and 393 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: then therefore one should be prepared for that by not 394 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: fully integrating them into into life essentially. But Carroll points 395 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: out that these views do not necessarily represent those of 396 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: of course other classes or certainly mothers during the time period. 397 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: So the seeming invisibility of young children in Italian cemeteries 398 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: of the time period is something that requires like further 399 00:22:54,240 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: examination and perhaps a little more understanding, as opposed to 400 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: just like well, they weren't considered real things. Also of note, 401 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: I was looking at a paper from twenty twelve child 402 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: Exposure in the Roman Empire by W. V. Harris, published 403 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Roman Studies, pointing out that child 404 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: exposure like the leaving of a child, you know, in 405 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: the wild or out in the open, away from from humans, 406 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: that this was widely practiced in the Roman Empire, often 407 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: when quote physical viability and legitimacy were in doubt, but 408 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: that not everyone agreed with the practice Stoics in particular 409 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: tended to believe that infants should live at the very 410 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: least if they're healthy and legitimate. And certainly there's plenty 411 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: of room for hypocrisy and something like that. But I 412 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: also wondered to what extent it backs up or counters 413 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: the idea that babies in general were considered only halfway real. 414 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: Here's another great chunk going back from from Dawson, going 415 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: back to her paper. Quote for Aristotle, infants were defined 416 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: as a lower category of beings physically weak, mentally and 417 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: morally inept, with unco controlled appetites. Physical disproportions associate them 418 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: with animals. A heavy upper part explains why children move 419 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: like quadrupeds, says Aristotle. Quote. That is why infants cannot 420 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: walk but crawl about, and at the very beginning cannot 421 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: even crawl, but remain where they are, but remain where 422 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: they are. This paper from Dustin doesn't really get into 423 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: memory all that much. A lot of it's again we're 424 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: dealing more sort of the overarching views of young children 425 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: and infants. But Dustin does such a memory as well. 426 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: In this part. Quote disproportions also explain mental incapacities. The 427 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: heaviness of a large head impairs the impulses of thoughts, 428 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: and the infant's memory is bad. Children are further associated 429 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: with inferior categories of human beings, such as old people 430 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: physically weaker, with a poorer memory and less hair, with 431 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: the insane and the drunk with a similar e fable 432 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: temperament and a disorderly behavior, with women irrational, changeable and weak, 433 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: and even with dwarfs. So you ask, what did ancient 434 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: Greek philosophers think about babies? And it's the answer is 435 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: just a conglomeration of offensive opinions. Well, a lot of 436 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: that is what seems to remain in the literature. But 437 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: Deson also stresses that while a lot of this may 438 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: just sound like, you know, babies are gross and the worst, 439 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: there's also plenty of evidence that the seeming deficiencies of 440 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: babies were also very much enjoyed. That it wasn't just like, oh, man, 441 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: this baby's like an old man. It's more like, oh, 442 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: this baby's like an old man, and the bonding still 443 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: occurred even in times of high mortality. Their smiles and 444 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: their skin were written about as being irresistible. And also, 445 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: I thought this was Nate quote, myths of baby heroes 446 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: transcend children's deaths, and this is something perhaps worth thinking about. 447 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, we might get into this in the 448 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: second episode. We might come back at a later time. 449 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: But you do have a lot of baby heroes and 450 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: child gods and godlings and various myth and folklore traditions 451 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: from the likes of baby Krishna to the Christ Child. 452 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: But anyways, sticking on the topic of memories of a 453 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: lack thereof and small children infants, it would seem that 454 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, of course, the lack of memories from one's 455 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: own infancy was very much a known factor, and that 456 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,719 Speaker 1: it would make sense within a viewpoint that babies are 457 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: unfinished and imperfect. They have yet to cross through all 458 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: the stages of becoming truly human, becoming you know, truly 459 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: a part of family unit, truly a part of society, 460 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: even if they still amuse us and we still have 461 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: a lot of emotions about them. Now, we mentioned earlier 462 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: cultural differences that could impact just how early one remembers 463 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: one's lie what are what one's earliest memories happen to be? 464 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: And I was looking at an article titled the culture 465 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: of Memory by Leo Winnerman published by the American Psychological 466 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: Society back in two thousand and five. The author here 467 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: points to research that shows that quote, the average age 468 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: of first memories varies up to two years between different cultures, 469 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: and it seems to come down to the weight and 470 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: importance of memory within a specific cultural system. According to 471 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: Michelle Leichmann, PhD, cited in the article quote, people who 472 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: grow up in societies that focus on individual personal history 473 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: like the United States, or ones that focus on personal 474 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: family history like the Maori will have different and often 475 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: earlier childhood memories than people who grow up in cultures that, 476 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: like many Asian cultures, value interdependence rather than personal autonomy. 477 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: So a key nineteen ninety four study from psychologist Mary Mullen, 478 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: published in the journal Cognition as more than seven hundred 479 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: Caucasian and Asian or Asian American undergrads to describe their 480 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: earliest memory on average Asian and Asian American student memories 481 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: happened six months later a subsequent study, and we should 482 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: know there were many subsequent studies that examined different slices 483 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: of all this from In this case from Mullen, though, 484 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: found a sixteen month gap between Caucasian Americans and Native Koreans. 485 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: These studies led to a host of others, and it 486 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: seems to follow the basic social interaction model. Quote. According 487 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: to this model, our autobiographical memories don't develop in a vacuum. Instead, 488 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: as children, we encode our memories of events as we 489 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: talk over those events with the adults in our life. 490 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: The more those adults encourage us to spin an elaborate 491 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: narrative tale, the more likely we are to remember details 492 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,479 Speaker 1: about the event later. This absolutely dovetails with much of 493 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: what I've been reading that like sort of an interactive 494 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: rehearsal of memories helps make those memories stronger, but sort 495 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: of the paradox of memory. And this is true not 496 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: just of childhood. I think this is true of adult 497 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: memory as well. Is that while that produces a stronger 498 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: memory consolidation and you you are better able to retrieve 499 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: that memory later, it also makes the memory more subject 500 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: to contamination by whatever input you're getting from the person 501 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: you're rehearsing it with, or even from outside sources such 502 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: as advertising. UM. I don't know if this is still 503 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: the case, but many years ago I went to the 504 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: Coca Cola Museum here in Atlanta with my mother, and 505 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: there was some bit of advertising. I'm not sure if 506 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: it was current advertising or past advertising, but the gist 507 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: of it was Coca Cola. We've always been there, like 508 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: we were a part of your essentially saying we were 509 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: a part of all those memories that you hold dear 510 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: and and I often think think of that when I'm 511 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: encounter branding from this company, because I'm because it's good, 512 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: it's really infectious. Yeah, it does a great job. It 513 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: is kind of like trying to worm its way in there, 514 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: like do you remember that that great memory from your childhood? 515 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: I bet there was a Coca Cola on the table. 516 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: And even if there wasn't, Bam, there is now. Well 517 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: you could say it's genius, maybe even insidious, the way 518 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: that they insinuate their branding into inherently nostalgic imagery. So 519 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: like the Santa clause with the Coca Cola, Yeah, I 520 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: think that's not an accident. That's like to try to 521 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: integrate the brand with your earliest and best feelings from childhood. 522 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: Oh boy, Christmas is coming, here's Santa. And what Santa 523 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: got in his hand a coke? Of course, that's just 524 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: part of the Santa lore. Yeah, yeah, so so yeah, 525 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: there's a you could really get into advertising and so 526 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: forth and all of this as well. But but yeah, 527 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: so even within a given culture, and they're going to 528 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: have this sort of different cultural leanings based on what 529 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: sort of emphasis you place on an individual experience. But 530 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: also there's gonna be there're gonna be differences even within 531 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: a culture based on high elaborative and low elaborative mothers. 532 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: And I take this to mean you could basically mean 533 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: any person in an individual's life, but they're using mothers 534 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: the main example. So basically, the question is is a 535 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: child routinely ask for detailed stories about their daily life 536 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: or they ask mostly closed questions. And this is interesting 537 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: to think about, like, yeah, is the is the child 538 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: asked to it like fully explain their day or is 539 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: it just like did you eat lunch today? Yes? Did 540 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: you eat your snack? Yes? That sort of thing. And 541 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: not to say either approach is better than the other. 542 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: Life is busy and sometimes you just got to make 543 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: sure that your child ate a snack and you don't 544 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: need the full story, but it is interesting to think about, 545 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: like perhaps the necessity for that balance, you know, to 546 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: get a full account of what the day was like 547 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to just like did you do the things 548 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: that were acquired? Well, this also connects to some things 549 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 1: I was reading about how very young children can in 550 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: fact answer questions about things that happen to them recently, 551 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: or at least they typically can. The has been studied, 552 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: But one thing I was reading was that how well, say, 553 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, a two and a half 554 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: year old can describe a memory of a recent event 555 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: depends very much on how you elicit the memory from them. 556 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: And you might have seen parents doing this. I'm you know, 557 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm not at that stage yet in parenting, but I've 558 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,239 Speaker 1: seen other parents doing this kind of thing. It's like 559 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: what did we do on your birthday? You know, did 560 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: we go somewhere? Where did we go? And so you 561 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: can kind of like talk the child through the memory 562 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: in a way that it seems like the child may 563 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: not be able to produce the details and connect them spontaneously. 564 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: Did that make sense? It was that yeah, yeah, no, no. 565 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: It makes me think of other memory exercises where like 566 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: if one is having like the tip of the tongue scenario, 567 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: where if someone is having if you're having difficulty remembering 568 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: a particular name or whatever, like it's better for your 569 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: memory for you to keep trying to guess, or for 570 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: the other person on the other end of the conversation 571 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: to encourage you to guess and not to just give 572 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: it to you. That sort of thing, like like making 573 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: the brain work for those details. That's true. That was 574 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: a finding at that episode we did, wasn't it that, Like, 575 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: you're more likely to remember the detail you're searching for 576 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: next time if somebody like gives you a hint and 577 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: you make the connection yourself versus if you just look 578 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: up the answer. Yeah. Absolutely. Anyway, in all this, I 579 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: think it is important to mention something that Michelle Likeman 580 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: points out here, and that is again that there's not 581 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: a wrong direction in any of this. The brain remembers 582 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: what we what it needs to remember. We remember what 583 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: we need to remember. Social pressure contributes to this, but 584 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: it is what it is now. One question I thought 585 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: we should look at before we wrap things up today 586 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: is like, Okay, we keep talking in you know, more 587 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: general terms about like, well, there's an earlier period where 588 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: most people can't really produce any memories from that period 589 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: of their lives, and then a later period where they can, 590 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: But what are the actual numbers, like when does that 591 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: kick in? This is something that has been studied extensively. 592 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: There are certainly different methods, and I think we might 593 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: be able to add some nuance to this answer later on, 594 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: But it seems to me like the sort of magic 595 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: age is like three to four years or about three 596 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: and a half years, is what most studies have converged on. 597 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: And to be clear, also, when we talk about childhood 598 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: amnesia in the scientific literature, it seems often to refer 599 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: to two different things that are related. One is the 600 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: loss of all memories as far as we can tell, 601 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: from before the earliest memory we can produce. And then 602 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: the second thing is the relative scarcity of memories from 603 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: the early years of childhood compared to equivalent spans of 604 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: time from later in life. So, for example, even though 605 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: you have some autobiographical memories from ages six to seve 606 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: even if you are like most people, you will have 607 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: a fewer number of spontaneous memories that you can recall 608 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: from that period than from say sixteen to seventeen. And 609 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: I thought it was also interesting to just look at 610 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: the different experimental methods for trying to find out what 611 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: people's earliest memories are. There are a number of ways 612 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: to approach this. Sometimes it's done by, say, just asking 613 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: people to describe their earliest memory and estimate at what 614 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: age it took place. That is, of course a perfectly 615 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: good place to start, but putting aside for a moment 616 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: the question of like the accuracy of these memories, you 617 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: could imagine reasons why just asking somebody what is your 618 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: earliest memory might not actually produce their earliest memory. For 619 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: one thing, most people don't keep their memories indexed in 620 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: a sortable form. You know, it's not an Excel sheet 621 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: that has a sort by column for date. And so 622 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: you may have a memory that occurs to you in 623 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: one moment as the earliest you can remember, But how 624 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: do you know in another circumstance you wouldn't think of 625 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: an earlier one that just didn't occur to you at 626 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: that time. Yeah. Plus, I guess it's worth considering that 627 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: in many, but certainly not all cases, you have you 628 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: have sort of a stability to early childhood. Certainly that 629 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: is desired that that there there would be sort of 630 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: a sameness to a lot of the early memories. You know, 631 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: it's like, uh, you know one or both parents are there. Um, 632 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: perhaps the immediate physical surroundings are the same. Uh So, 633 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: like what is going to be president in a memory? 634 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: To distinguish it and set it apart in the timeline 635 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: again unless you go back later and then you you 636 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: have encoded it and then you identify it, maybe falsely, 637 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: and say, oh, well, this is a memory of say 638 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: when we lived at this house or when we lived 639 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: in this town. Yeah, And that raises important questions about 640 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: like the characteristics of what counts as a memory, Like 641 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a sort of boundary being established 642 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: by the terms of the demand for reak call. For example, 643 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,479 Speaker 1: an autobiographical memory needs to be something you can put 644 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: into words and explain to somebody else. But do you 645 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: ever get that feeling that you're experiencing nostalgia But it's 646 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: not for a thing in the outside world, Maybe not 647 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: for an image or an event, but something that isn't 648 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: really something you can put into words. It's like nostalgia 649 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: for an internal state or a feeling, this kind of 650 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: strange thing. I sometimes have that sensation. Of course, when 651 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: I have that feeling, it's totally possible the memory component 652 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: of the sensation of nostalgia could be illusory, but sometimes 653 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if maybe feelings like that could be based 654 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: in really old memories that can't be put into words 655 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:51,240 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I'm having trouble remembering a specific example 656 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: of this, but I think some of my early memories 657 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: definitely have this component to them. Even if I do 658 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: remember like a basic setting or event around them, there 659 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: is like a there's there is at least as strong 660 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: the feeling of what it meant like. There's one particular 661 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: early memory I have of like running around in circles 662 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: in a living room, around like a dinner, like a 663 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: dining room table in a living room, or a dining 664 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: room that just seemed enormous, you know, like a cathedral. 665 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: And so part of it is like these vague memories 666 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: of what this space looked like, but it's also equally 667 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: met by the exhilaration that is remembered of just kind 668 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: of like this, you know, this running around And it 669 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: is hard to really explain, like give what that means, 670 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: because if I were to run around in circles right now, 671 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: it would certainly not be the same feeling. You know, 672 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: it doesn't relate to other memories of physical exertion from 673 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: other points in my life. Oh but then to come 674 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: back to other methods to study early memories. Another one 675 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: that seems to be used fairly often is the word 676 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: que test. So this one's pretty interesting. I say a 677 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,959 Speaker 1: word to you, and then I ask you to tell 678 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,280 Speaker 1: me a memory associated with this word, just anyway memory. 679 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: We could try it right now, rob do you want 680 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: to do it, chair, let's do it. Okay, tell me 681 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: a memory associated with the word jar. Oh, well, that's easy. 682 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: I have an early memory of trying to get a 683 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 1: jar of Marischino cherries out of the refrigerator by myself, 684 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: and I dropped it and broke it or spilled it. 685 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I broke it or spelled it, 686 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: but that is a strong early memory of mine, Okay. 687 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: And then from here in the experiment, I might ask 688 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: you for some subsequent details, like you know, who was there, 689 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: did anybody else witness this memory? Etcetera, etcetera. And then 690 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: I would also ask you estimate what age you were 691 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: when this memory happened. But what age do you think 692 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: it was? Who? I would say maybe maybe three, But 693 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: that's just a real that's a huge guess, and I 694 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: think I've actually asked my mother about this memory before. 695 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: And you know, this is the kind of thing where 696 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: like kids have things like this happened all the time, 697 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily. If not necessarily, something apparent is going 698 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: to specifically remember. It makes more of an impact on 699 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: the child and the parent. So I have no idea 700 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 1: exactly when this occurred. Okay, but this is a good answer. 701 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: Jar of cherries on the floor, maybe spilled, maybe broken. 702 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: You think you were around three, So I keep doing this. 703 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: I do this for a big list of words, maybe 704 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: with a big sample of people, and then you can 705 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: sort of cross reference all of the answers. You get 706 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: to look at what ages the memories tend to come from. 707 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: And you could see by this method that of just 708 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: making up random numbers here, but say by randomly associating 709 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: memories with words, we end up with people telling us 710 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: about twenty percent more memories from ages sixteen to twenty 711 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: than from ages six to ten or something. So I 712 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: think that's a pretty clever method. But anyway, what this 713 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: research tends to converge on is that a really important 714 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: time is roughly the age three to four, or like 715 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: three and a half. Generally, the earliest memories that adults 716 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: can produce are around the ages of three to four, 717 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: and there is not much or nothing from before that. 718 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: And then after that there is a gradual increase in 719 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: the quantity of autobiographical memories from each year of age 720 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: up until maybe like seven or eight, when the autobiographical 721 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 1: memory store starts to look more like that of the 722 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: rest of adulthood. So for most people looking backwards, memories 723 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: tend to start around three or four, and then you 724 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: get more of them at five, more of them at six, 725 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,439 Speaker 1: more of them at seven, more of them at eight, 726 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: and then you start to reach a more kind of 727 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: complete adult memory set. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that 728 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: children before the age of three or four produce no 729 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: autobiographical memories. Instead, it seems like there may be a 730 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: sort of period of forgetting. And I thought this was 731 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 1: very interesting. Just one study I wanted to mention quickly 732 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: that gets at this. It was published in the journal 733 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: Memory in two thousand and five by Dana Van Abama 734 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: and Patricia Hour and it's called Autobiographical Memory in Middle 735 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: Childhood Recollections of the Recent and Distant Past. Now I 736 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: was looking for the full text of the study, and 737 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: I couldn't find it before we recorded today, but I 738 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: did find a summary of the findings in a Psychology 739 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: Today article by an author named Vitelli, And basically what 740 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,720 Speaker 1: happened in the study is that children were interviewed about 741 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: autobiographical events along with their mothers at the age of three, 742 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: and they produced details about those events. Is something they did, 743 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: a trip out to do something, and they could recall 744 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: things about their own past, so they had some form 745 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: of episodic memory. They could be prompted to retrieve details 746 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: about these episodic memories. But those same children were brought 747 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,760 Speaker 1: back years later at ages seven, eight, and nine, exactly 748 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: the range at which there seems to be a profound 749 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: forgetting of early childhood memories. So from vitelli summary here, 750 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: the seven year olds could recall sixty percent of the 751 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: same autobiographical events they recalled at three, but the eight 752 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: and nine year olds could only recall thirty six and 753 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: thirty eight percent of events. So there seems to be 754 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 1: a major drop off of memories from this earliest period 755 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: around the ages of seven, eight and nine. Yeah, I 756 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: think this kind of matches up with some stuff I've 757 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: observed with my own son, mostly when in talking about 758 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: things that we watched together when he was in like 759 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: one age group versus another. So, and it varies, I 760 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: think from picture to picture, Like there's some movies that 761 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: maybe we've we've talked about more we've that have become 762 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: more like a sort of a regular part of one's life. 763 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: And then there are other movies where you like watch it, 764 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: forget it, and then maybe truly forget it and then 765 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: come back and experience it again. Now, why patterns like 766 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,799 Speaker 1: this emerge is something I think we'll have to get 767 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 1: into more when we come back in subsequent parts of 768 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: the series. I'm not sure how many we're going to 769 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: go to. We'll have at least one more part, maybe 770 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: maybe a couple more. Yeah, there's certainly going to be 771 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: a plenty to get into for a part two, possibly 772 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: a part three. But as we often have pointed out, 773 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: we're we're hesitant to say this will definitely go to 774 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: a certain number of episodes because we're often just a 775 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,839 Speaker 1: little unsure where we're going to cut it off. Well, 776 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: how about you, Joe's we close out this episode, what's 777 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: what comes to mind is your earliest Jar related memory? 778 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: Jars only please, and if it, even if it's from 779 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: the last five years, that's cool too well to bore 780 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: you with dreadful cliche. I think catching fireflies in a jar, 781 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: that that is very early. We did that a lot 782 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: when I was a kid in our front yard. We 783 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: had lots of them. I think I also have very 784 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: early memories of pickle jars, because I recall from early 785 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: childhood being really into pickles pickled cucumbers, like a like 786 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: a Classon's pickle jar. Oh oh, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, 787 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: clearly I had more of I guess the sweet tooth 788 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: as a child, But my son has always been super 789 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: into pickles of all different varieties, from the little cornishans 790 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: to the big dill pickles, to the big bread and 791 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: butter pickles, to the slices, all of it. Though with 792 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: both of those, I guess those are just sort of 793 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: like ambiguous, continuous states of childhood. Catching fireflies in jars, 794 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: it's just something that happened often. I don't remember a 795 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 1: particular instance of it, saying with admiring the pickle jar 796 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: and wanting its contents if I had to produce it more. 797 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: I don't know a direct autobiographical, specific memory you'd probably 798 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: be a more recent one. I don't remember if I 799 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: think you asked me for my earliest but if I 800 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: were just doing the word que test, i'd probably say, oh, 801 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: from when I was thirty five and I made and 802 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: I made kimchi in a large jar on my table, 803 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: and I remember how it smelled and all that. Oh nice. Well, 804 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's it's worth telling everyone, like, 805 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: go out now and create some positive jar based memories 806 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,799 Speaker 1: with your children, even if they're grown now. It's never 807 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: too late to create a jar based memory. All right. Well, 808 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to go and close up 809 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 1: this episode, but we'll be back with more on this topic, 810 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: and in the meantime, certainly write in with your thoughts 811 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: on all of this, and yeah, if you want to 812 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: share some of your earliest memories with us and sort 813 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: of attempt to define when these memories occurred, and if 814 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: you have any, if you've been able to dig around 815 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: and to ask other people to sort of prove them 816 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: out to see if they are in fact largely authentic 817 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: or if they've been augmented in any way. Yeah, we'd 818 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone throughout these episodes. But this 819 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: is going to produce a skewed sample because we're gonna 820 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: hear from everybody who's like, I can remember being one, 821 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: But people aren't going to write in to tell us 822 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: I don't remember being one. No, right, you can write 823 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: in with that if you're like, my earliest memory is 824 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: being you know, five or older, whatever, right in. Like 825 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 1: we said, there is no wrong answer here. The people 826 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: who claim to member being born, it doesn't mean their 827 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 1: brain is better, their memory is better than another individual. Again, 828 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 1: where you're going to continue to discuss this as as 829 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,919 Speaker 1: we explore this topic. No wrong answers. All right, Yeah, 830 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: so we close it out. We'll just remind you that 831 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind publish on 832 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow your Mind 833 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: podcast feed on Mondays, we do listener mail, on Wednesdays 834 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: we do a short form monster fact or artifact episode, 835 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 836 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film. And this week, I 837 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: think it's going to be a pretty fun one that 838 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,879 Speaker 1: will tie in with early childhood memories for many people, 839 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: because I think we do form a lot of early 840 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: childhood memories based on movies we're exposed to, so perhaps 841 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: we'll get into bat a little bit. As we discussed 842 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 1: this week's title, Huge thanks to our audio producer J. J. Pasway. 843 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 844 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 845 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 846 00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 847 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: your Mind mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind 848 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 849 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening 850 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,760 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.