1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 2: On an early Friday morning in October, Bloomberg, Serene Cheng, 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: and a team of colleagues set out on a small 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 2: supply ship from Singapore. They were headed into the waters 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: of the South China Sea. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: We sailed off from Singapore around five in the morning. 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: We were very fortunate the seas were very calm that day. 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: En route de one of my colleagues events bottled like dolphins. 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: But Serene wasn't there for a sightseeing cruise. Her team 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 2: was looking for tankers carrying Iranian oil that was sanctioned 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: by the US, and after seven hours on the water, 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: they saw something that caught their eye. Through the haze, 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: they found what they were looking for. Dozens of huge ships, 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: some more than three football fields long, looming in the distance. 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: We were quite taken aback by the skill and just 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: a number of tankers that were sitting and loitering around 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: the area. 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: As Serene's team was sailing through this cluster of ships, 19 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: they spotted two oil tankers side by side. They identified 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: one tanker as the wind Wind, a Panama flagged vessel, 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: and the other ship sitting low in the water and 22 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: laden with crude oil was a Cameron flagged vessel, the Titans. 23 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: The Titan is known to have transported Iranian oil and 24 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: it's infamous within shipping circles. It is no known insure, 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: no known beneficiary owner, and the only contact details for 26 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: its registered owner are a post office box in the Seychelles. 27 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: We saw these two vessels Titan and they were doing 28 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: a ship to ship transfer right before our eyes. Look 29 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: you can see the hose. Can you see the hose connecting, 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: So that's the hose that's transferring the oil. 31 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: Unbelievable. 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: I think we realized that, oh, this is the this 33 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: is checkpot, this is the one that has been handling 34 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: Iranian coude and it was connected to a vessel that 35 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: is often going to with China. 36 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: What Serene and her team witnessed was likely one of 37 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 2: many oil transfers that happen every day in the South 38 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: China Sea transfers that happen away from prying eyes and 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: skirt US sanctions. The US has essentially declared Iran's oil 40 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: sector off limits, and it can restrict or cut off 41 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: access to its financial system for any company or person 42 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 2: found trading with Iran. But Iran needs the oil revenue, 43 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: and it appears to be using a network of intermediaries 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: and vessels owned by shell companies to get it oil 45 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: to willing buyers like China, and that's creating a multi 46 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: billion dollar shadow industry that's flourishing today. 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: When we look at ship tracking data and we look 48 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: at satellite images, it is very clear that this supply 49 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: chain is happening, and it's moving a lot of oil 50 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of money to be made in 51 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: terms of its dollar value. Just for this year alone, 52 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: for the first nine months of twenty twenty four, we 53 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: are looking at more than twenty billion dollars and that 54 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: is already a very conservative estimate. 55 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: Welcome to The Big Take Asia from Bloueberg News. I'm wanh. 56 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: Every week we take you inside some of the world's 57 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: biggest and most powerful economies and the markets, tycoons and 58 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: businesses that drive this ever shifting region. Today on the show, 59 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: how our vast network of aging ships are covertly transferring 60 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: millions of barrels of Iranian oil and skirting US sanctions. 61 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: What are the risks for neighboring countries if a shady 62 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: transfer goes wrong? And what is the US doing to 63 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: keep sanctioned oil out of reach. Back in twenty eighteen, 64 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: the US reimposed sanctions on Iran's major oil exporters, banks, 65 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: and shipping companies. That meant Iran had a hard time 66 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: finding willing customers to buy its oil. Serene Chung, Bloomberg's 67 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: team leader for oil trading in Asia, says the sanctions 68 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: cut off crucial revenue for Iran and hit its economy hard. 69 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 1: Iran really relies on this oil revenue. Billions of dollars 70 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: goes back to Tehran from the sale of this oil. 71 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: There is a real need for the Iranians to think 72 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: of different ways to bring the oil to the customers. 73 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: One workaround Iran's using to get its oil out on 74 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: the market involves what's known as a dark fleet. 75 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: Duck fleet tends to be very old tankers, don't have 76 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: proper insurance coverage, tends to sail under what we know 77 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: as flecks of convenience, and tend to support sanctioned and 78 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: restricted regimes and flows of oil from the likes of Iran, 79 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Venezuela and Russia. 80 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: And one thing these tankers tend to do a lot 81 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: is to turn off their transponders, which sends signals of 82 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: the ship's location and other basic information for navigational safety, 83 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: and with them off, the ships can essentially disappear off 84 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:34,559 Speaker 2: the map. 85 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: They can go dark for a long period of time, 86 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: maybe days or even weeks. Nobody would actually know what 87 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: it's doing doing that period of time. 88 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: Recently, Serene and the Bloomberg team noticed a pickup in 89 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: the number of these shadow tankers off the east coast 90 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: of Malaysia. 91 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: When we looked at ship tracking data, we can see 92 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: that it's very very clear where the plaster is. It's 93 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: almost like a parking lot right. It is known to 94 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: be the biggest cluster of dakty tenkas in the world. 95 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: It can contain around any time between seventy to one 96 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: hundred vessels, many of them supertankers, the biggest in the world. 97 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: The ships are clustered off the east of jahor the 98 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: southernmost state of Malaysia. 99 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: So this particular area, it's in what we know as 100 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: the Malaysian z which is the exclusive economic zone. It 101 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: is outside of Malaysia's territorial waters. Because it is a 102 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: very large area, that's not that much scrutiny. 103 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 2: This lack of oversight and its location in the middle 104 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: of a shipping corridor between China and Iran make this 105 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: a perfect place for dark fleet vessels to move sanctioned oil. 106 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: So Serena and her team focused on this cluster of tankers. 107 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: They gathered nearly five years of satellite images from the 108 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: hot spot and train the computer to recognize one unique 109 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: pattern two ships side by side for hours at a time. 110 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: In the shipping industry, it's called a ship to ship transfer, 111 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: which could be an indication that oil is being moved 112 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: from one vessel to another. 113 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: When a cargo gets transferred via ship to ship, it 114 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: tends to be relabeled as another type of oil. When 115 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: Iranian oil gets transferred out at sea of Malaysia, that 116 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: is a good opportunity for this relabeling of sensitive cruds 117 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: into Malaysian crude. But of course, what we can only 118 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: say is that adjacent side by side ships in this 119 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: manner suggests that a ship to ship transfer is happening. 120 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: Or you know, they could just be stopping in the 121 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: open sea to say hi. 122 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: Right, A right, you want to keep warm or something, right. 123 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: But I want to be clear that not all the 124 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: time these would be dark business, but oftentimes because of 125 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: what we know of what's happening in this area, it 126 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: tends to be. 127 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: So to nail it further down, Serene and the Bloomberg 128 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: team layered the satellite image with ship tracking data to 129 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: check whether these tankers are where they say they are, 130 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: and on top of that, another set of data was 131 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: revealing on paper, the official data from Chinese customs just 132 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: didn't add up. 133 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: If you look at Chinese official imports from Iran that 134 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: has been down to zero since the middle of twenty 135 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: twenty two, and when we checked with the Chinese customs, 136 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: there's not single barrel of Iranian oil that has been 137 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: imported by China since middle of twenty twenty two. And 138 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: China has in fact imported a lot of Malaysian oil, 139 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: way more Malaysian oil than Malaysia can even ever produce. 140 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: And all of this research led the team to the 141 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: discovery of those two ships in mid transfer. 142 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the SSEs STS. So it was really exciting 143 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: for us because I think in that moment we realize 144 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: that with these two tankers, we could potentially join the 145 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: Dots and tell our story about how the Dark Fleet 146 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: has been helping oil move from restricted regimes such as 147 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: the one in Iran to willing customers in China. 148 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: For Iran, the South China Sea gambit is a means 149 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: of survival. The country needs the revenue and there aren't 150 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: many buyers willing to skirt the sanctions. But China doesn't 151 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: recognize the US curbs on Iran, and these shadow operations 152 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: offer a way for the country's refineries to access cheap oil. 153 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: But what are the risks and what needs to be 154 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: done to curb the shadow exchange before the worst happens. 155 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: That's after the break. Every year, billions of dollars of 156 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: oil is estimated to move from Iran to China with 157 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 2: the help of a vast shadowy fleet and bluebirg Serene 158 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: Cheng says this growing cluster of dark tankers poses multiple risks. 159 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: The first risk we would be looking at is environmental. 160 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: This is a lot of oil that is being transferred 161 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: from one vessel to the other, and it's happening quite 162 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: frequently in these waters. Should there be any fire, explosion, 163 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: oil spill, or any sinking of ships, this would be 164 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: a real tragedy and catastrophe to the coastal states in 165 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: what is otherwise a pretty pristine area that's of Malaysia, 166 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: Singapore and Indonesia. 167 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 2: And in recent years there have been incidents that showed 168 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: just how dangerous the risks can be. An explosion last 169 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: year aboard the Pablo, a dark vessel which had been 170 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: observed in Iranian waters, killed three crew members, and in 171 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: July this year, a collision between an oil products tanker 172 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: and a dark fleet crew tanker result in fires on 173 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 2: both ships. The dark fleet trade is also a growing 174 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: source of tension between Washington and regional powers like Malaysia. 175 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: The US has called on Malaysia to do more to 176 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: tackle the problem, but with little success, and earlier this year, 177 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: at a Bloomberg Economic Forum, Malaysian Prime Minister and more 178 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: Ibrahim denied that any transshipment of Iranian oil took place, 179 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: not one should of evidence they induced, and he added 180 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: that Malaysia isn't able to monitor what's happening out at sea. 181 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: There was ship to ship, thus shipment in the international walks, 182 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: and we do not have the capacity to observe a 183 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: monitor there. Meanwhile, China didn't comment specifically on the oil transfers, 184 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: but it said its trade with Iran is reasonable and 185 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: legal and should be respected and protected. Iran's Foreign and 186 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 2: oil ministries, the US Treasure Department, and Malaysia's Foreign Affairs ministry, 187 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: as well as a Prime Minister's office, didn't respond to 188 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: requests for comment as for the transfer between those two tankers, 189 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: the wind Win and Titan that Bloomberg Reporters observed, a 190 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: letter requesting comment to the po box of Titan's owner 191 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: was returned with the address not found, and for win Win, 192 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: a representative in London for its registered owner declined to 193 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: comment on their clients or to provide contact details. And 194 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 2: Serene says, exactly what can be done about the dark 195 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: fleet and who's willing to take responsibility for it is 196 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: a complicated question. 197 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: The US would like Southeast Asia to properly enforce its 198 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: sanctions against countries like Iran, but on the other hand, 199 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: countries like Malaysia are on very friendly terms and have 200 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: long term ties with Iran as well as with China, 201 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: where a lot of this Iranian oil is going to. 202 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: You can imagine that there are different priorities and as 203 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: capabilities when it comes to sanctioned enforcement in this area 204 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: and stream. 205 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: How do you see this trend of sanctioned oil moving 206 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: around Asia playing out? Especially with the new US president 207 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: coming into the White House. 208 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: I think everyone is looking out to see what a 209 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: Trump administration will do in terms of its foreign policy 210 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: and in terms of how harsh it is when it 211 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: comes to sanctioned enforcement. But what I would say is 212 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: that this trade, involving dark fleet and involving the movement 213 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: of sanctioned and restricted oil, it is a very resilient trade. 214 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: They will not go away because at the end of 215 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: the day, there is a lot of money to be 216 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: made by these dark fleet tanker operators who are helping 217 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: the sanction that restricted regimes. They are making way more 218 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: than they would on a legitimate fleet, and of course 219 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: the likes of regimes such as those in Iran, Venezuela 220 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: and Russia. They really are motivated to get the oil 221 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 1: to the customers. There is a very eager buy of 222 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: oil in China, and there are middlemen and tanko operatas 223 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: willing to help this trade, so it will not go away. 224 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: This is the big take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanha. 225 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Young Young, Naomi Um and 226 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: Jessica Beck. It was mixed by Alex Suguiera in fact 227 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: checked by Naomi and Adrianna Tapia. It was edited by 228 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: Aaron Edwards, Caitlin Kenney, Clara for Raira Marquez, and Emily Cadman. 229 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: There was additional reporting by Clara Wilund, Soon, Krishna Kara, 230 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: and Yasufumi Saito. We'd like to give special thanks to 231 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Originals team. Naomi Shaven is our senior producer, Elizabeth 232 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: Ponzo is our senior editor, Nicole Beemster Bower is our 233 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: executive producer, and Sage Bowman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 234 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: Please follow and review The Big Take Asia wherever you 235 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: listen to podcasts. It really helps me. Stener's final show, 236 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: See you next time.