1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Your parent that works hard, 2 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean weary to the bone hard day after day 3 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: to try to make a life for yourself. You finally 4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: reached that point in your life where you're rolling through 5 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: your sixties and you think that all is right with 6 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: the world. You've provided a home, You've got your kids 7 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: kind of in a position where they can take care 8 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: of themselves, and you want to enjoy life. But one 9 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: of the oldest motives in the world begins to kind 10 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: of sneak in to your family circle. They used to 11 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: refer to it as the green eyed monk. It's the 12 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: idea of greed and jealousy, wanting to possess those things 13 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: that you haven't worked for throughout your life, but you 14 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: want them given to you, and you want them given 15 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: to you now, even at the expense of the ones 16 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: that you supposedly love. Today, we're going to talk about 17 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: a staged murder suicide in McLean, Virginia. I'm Joseph Scott 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Jackie Howard, executive producer for 19 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is joining me. Jackie, I 20 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: gotta tell you when you walk onto a scene. When 21 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: you've got more than one body, there's always this little 22 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: voice in the back of your head as an investigator 23 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: where you're thinking, you know, I gotta make sure that 24 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: I get this right. Because as bad as homicide is 25 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: in its singular or form, when you've got two people 26 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: that have died, you know that you're walking into an 27 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: environment that has just been occupied by fear and total 28 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: violence that someone would bring about the deaths of two individuals, 29 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: and you begin to think about all kinds of things. 30 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: This is suicide, Is this a homicide? Is this a 31 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: double homicide? Do you have a madman running around out 32 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: in neighborhood somewhere? Because you know, the public, they hear this, 33 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: it gets out there. They want to know that they 34 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: feel safe. And in McLean, Virginia, you know, you it's 35 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: not known for a huge crime right there. Now, people 36 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: want to feel safe. And when the police rolled up 37 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: to this one point three million dollar home, I have 38 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: to imagine they were kind of scratching their head. Pamela Hargan, 39 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: as you said, Joe was a very successful woman. She 40 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: and her three daughters lived in a one point three 41 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: million dollars mansion. Now she was a single mom, as 42 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: her daughters grew up, Megan, Ashley and Helen. There was 43 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: a fifteen year difference between Helen and Meghan, the oldest 44 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: and the youngest. When police arrived on the scene, they 45 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: found Pamela Hargan sixty three, dead in the laundry room, 46 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: and then they found Helen again, twenty three, the youngest, 47 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: in her bedroom, also deceased. When police arrived on the scene, Joe, 48 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: they immediately knew and recognized that this was a staged scene. 49 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: How well you begin to try to assess the environment 50 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: in which the bodies are found in. Is everything appeared 51 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: to be consistent with what is being portrayed before you. 52 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: There was an old forensic pathologist that I used to 53 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: work with, and he had this kind of saying that 54 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: he would say, it comes off of Madison Avenue. He 55 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: would say, we would be in the Morgan. He would 56 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, we'd be standing over body to do the examination. 57 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: He says, we need to make sure that everything is 58 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: as advertised. And I've always kind of kept that in 59 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: the back of my mind, one of those little phrases 60 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: that helps me stay focused. You know, when I was 61 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: certainly conducting an investigation as a collection of investigators. We're 62 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of doubting Thomas's. You have to prove it 63 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: to us in order for us to buy it, and 64 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably what the police were thinking. 65 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: It's kind of an interesting thing when you begin to 66 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: think that mom is found in one area of the 67 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: house and she has been shot in the head. There's 68 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: multiple casings spent casings, which are twenty two caliber, and 69 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber are one of the very smallest calibers 70 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: that you can acquire that are in common usage. There's 71 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: other things that are out there, and we've talked about 72 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: that before on bodybacks, but it's one of the smaller 73 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: calibers that's out there. However, it is lethal and it 74 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: is highly effective. And as it turned out, these rounds 75 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: had been fired from a rifle and not handgun, you know, 76 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: which you know, there are people that certainly do take 77 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: their own lives with rifles. I've seen it over and 78 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: over again because when many homes are going to find that, 79 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: people will have a small caliber rifle like this for 80 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: what they call varmint hunting or just you know, in 81 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: home protection. It's easy to wield, it doesn't take a 82 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: lot of strength, but you know, back to the bodies, 83 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: Mom was found in one area of the house and 84 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: then the daughter, Helen, was found in another location. In 85 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: my experience with murder suicides, and this is not always 86 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: the case, all right, but just hear me out. In 87 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: many cases with murder suicides, you will find individuals that 88 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: when they commit the murder, they immediately take the weapon 89 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,039 Speaker 1: and turn it on themselves and then shoot themselves. And 90 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: in this particular case, that's not what they were seeing. 91 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: So automatically you're going to think that something is wrong here. 92 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: Why would she be in another location of the home, 93 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: And so that begins the wheels to begin to spend, 94 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: and I think that probably what they were looking at 95 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: also were the injuries. She was found in her bedroom 96 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: with the butt of the weapon wedged, as a police say, 97 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: between her feet and the muzzle of the weapon resting 98 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: against her abdomen. And for them this seemed rather atypical, 99 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: you know, as they begin to dig deeper into this case, 100 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: a big clue would have to be the location of 101 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: that rifle in Helen's bedroom, As you said, it was 102 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: wedged between her legs. First thing I wanted to know 103 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: I'm learning from you, Joe, is where the wound is 104 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: in the abdomen, because that's where the muzzle of the 105 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: gun was. And then we find out that her wound 106 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: was not in the abdomen, And what's she wearing her shoes? 107 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: Because if she had done this, more than likely, considering 108 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: where the gun ended up, she would have had to 109 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: use her feet. That's one of the things that you 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: want to look for, and I know what you're going 111 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: for here was the trigger mechanism of the weapon actually 112 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: actuated by utilizing a toe. Because when you think about 113 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: if somebody is going to inflict a self inflicted wound 114 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: with a long arm, which our shoulder fired arm, which 115 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: this rifle is, you have to place the butt of 116 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: the stock into your shoulder and pull the trigger with 117 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: your hand being clasped adjacent to forward of the butt 118 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: and actuating the trigger with your finger. That's going to 119 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: be hard to do for certain people, depending upon their 120 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: arm length. That's one of the reasons at autopsy it's 121 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: a good idea to always measure the arms. Will do 122 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: it from shoulder to the tips of the fingers and 123 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: from the elbow or what's called the ACF, the anticubital fossil, 124 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: which is essentially just a fancy term for the bend 125 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: in your arm, to the tips of the fingers, and 126 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: also to the thumb, you know, because you can manipulate 127 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: a weapon with the thumb as well. But what kind 128 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: of turns this whole thing around is that when the 129 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: police began to examine Helen's body, and I would imagine 130 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: the emmy that was at the scene, they noticed something 131 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: odd about her wound. Her wound was not in the abdomen, 132 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: The muzzle was merely resting against her abdomen. The police 133 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: had stated that the actual gunshot wound was to the 134 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: top of her head. Now, that's very difficult to do, 135 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: particularly given the stature of an individual, particularly a female 136 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: whose arms tend to be a bit shorter than a male. 137 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: Do they have the arm strength, upper body strength in 138 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: order to hold the weapon in order to facilitate that, 139 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: and then you have to account for overall length in 140 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: order to pull the trigger. Can you actually imagine? Can 141 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: anyone actually imagine what kind of contortion is you would 142 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: have to be in order to place the muzzle of 143 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: a rifle adjacent to the top of your head and 144 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: then in some way attempt to pull the trigger with 145 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: even your toe or your thumb, or maybe an index finger. 146 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: I think that it would be very difficult. Now, there 147 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: have been cases where people have used items such as paintsticks. 148 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: I've had a couple of cases, well, one case involving 149 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: paintstick where the paintstick is actually used to press the 150 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: trigger in order to actuate the weapon, but there's no 151 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: evidence of that in this case. I've also had cases 152 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: where individuals have rigged triggers with strings and ropes and 153 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: those sorts of things in order to pull it. But 154 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: there has to be a lot of thought goes into 155 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: that in order to facilitate that and make that happen, 156 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: And in this case, there was no evidence of that. 157 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: And let's be realistic, Joe, just the dynamics of gravity 158 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: in itself, it would have had to have been a 159 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: one in a million even if you had tried to 160 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: kill yourself holding the gun. I mean, just let's walk 161 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: through this, and you're laying on the bed. You're going 162 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: to shoot yourself in the top of the head with 163 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: a rifle, so you're trying to figure out how to 164 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: hold it to get it done, and when you actually 165 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: activate the trigger, it's a one in a million shot. 166 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: That that gun is actually going to fall directly between 167 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: your legs laying on the bed. Gravity just doesn't work 168 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: that way most of the time. That constant force in nature, 169 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: which we're all subject to and plays a big part 170 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: in death investigation, is in fact gravity that's going to 171 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: dictate everything that occurs. You know, because at the close 172 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: of the death, when you're deceased, you are your body. 173 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: Let me be very careful in saying that your body 174 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: is now completely subject to all of the forces of 175 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: nature that are impacting every other inanimate object in your environment. 176 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: You know, whether it's a chair or a shoe, or 177 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, a weapon, or your body. You become literally 178 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 1: you know, that's where that you know, that term that 179 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: is used in our vernacular over and over again called 180 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: dead weight. If no one has ever attempted to carry 181 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: a deceased individual, to move a deceased individual, you can't 182 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: fully appreciate that term, because people, when they're alive, when 183 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: you're carrying them, they kind of help you, they kind 184 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: of give you an assist. But with deadweight, you've got 185 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: the human body is so oddly distributed with where weight 186 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: is distributed throughout the body, that gravity is going to 187 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: dictate where the body comes to rest, and certainly it's 188 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: going to impact where the weapon it's going to come 189 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: to rest. So the fact that she was in this position, 190 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: given the evidence that you have initially is that the 191 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: gunshot wound the GSW is in the top of the head, 192 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, it gives you pause as an investigator. And 193 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: one other things that's kind of very telling here, I 194 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: think is, you know, when the police initially released information 195 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: from the scene about this case, they used the term 196 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: murder suicide, okay, and then you know, as you know, 197 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: time goes by, you can see them saying in press 198 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: releases that, well, the investigation is ongoing, they're taking a 199 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: longer look at this, and they've got other information coming 200 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: in and whatnot. But you know, who never said that 201 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: was the theme, had stated that Hammle's manner of death 202 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: was a homicide. But here's what's key. The m did 203 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: not say did not say that Helen's manner of death 204 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: or suicide. They initially left the thing as undetermined. So 205 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: that tells me that when they received these bodies at 206 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: the morgue and they began to do the examination, began 207 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: to do a very close look or give Helen's body 208 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: a very close look. They were able to determine that 209 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: gunshot wound that has been alleged to have been self inflicted. 210 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: It didn't marry up with the things that we look for, 211 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: and I would imagine that there is going to be 212 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: evidence relative to the distribution of powder. Perhaps that is 213 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: the unburned powder that is emanating from the end of 214 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: that muzzle when the weapon inspired. And my suspicion is 215 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: that they saw something that gave them an indication that 216 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: there was some range of distance between the end of 217 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: the muzzle and the top of the head. Because here's 218 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: the fact that it's really hard to escape if you 219 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: investigate suicides. And I'd like to just kind of stop 220 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: here and tell people that in the medical legal world, 221 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: we investigate more suicides than we do homicides. If you 222 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: watch the media, think that everything's a homicide, homicides are 223 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: kind of they're on the low end as far as 224 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: the number of those that we actually look at. Suicides 225 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: generally are going to outpace homicides two to one in 226 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: some cases depend upon where you are, three to one. 227 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: So you're looking at a lot more suicides and you 228 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: begin to get kind of a feel form and the 229 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: things that you're looking for is as tells if you will. 230 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: And with a long arm like this, when you take 231 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: a weapon and you place it in a specific location, 232 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: it's going to be tightly pressed. Most suicide self inflicted 233 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds people are not wanting to miss. Okay, so 234 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: you will have like a hard what some people refer 235 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: to as a hard contact gunshot, one where you have 236 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: the muzzle the end of the muscle weapon where it's 237 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: tightly pressed against the surface and the weapon is discharged 238 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: into the body. The more distance you get, remember what 239 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: we talked about length of arms and being a shoulder 240 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: fired arm, you're having now if you've got a gap 241 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: in between the target area and in the muzzle, you're 242 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: again extending out the distance that's involved here. And the 243 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: probability for this happening you talked about one in a million. 244 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: It goes up astronomically because we know that it's almost 245 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: a physical impossibility for this to have been a self 246 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: inflicted I think the m E saw that. Do you 247 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: have the same kind of gunshot residue on your hands, 248 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: whether it's a long gun or a handgun. Yeah, you know, 249 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: gunshot residue is an interesting thing. First off, for these tests, 250 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: they're not always you get what are called fall positives 251 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: lots of times, and they're not always absolute. I think 252 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: that everybody looks that and says, oh, there is no 253 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: GSR gunshot rosidue, so that's definitive, or you know, we 254 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: have this gunshot rosidue and that is definitive, and it's not. 255 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: There's no guarantee you're going to get a positive hit 256 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: every time. They did an interesting study many years ago, 257 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: I think, where there was a gentleman that they had 258 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: used as kind of a test subject for some of 259 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: these GSR tests. Early on when people had begun to 260 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: use these, remember years and years ago, they used to 261 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: use what's called a paraffin test. If you can't imagine this, 262 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: You'd put your hand down into warm wax and they 263 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: would peel that off. In the wax would contain any 264 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: kind of particulate matter that was still in the hands, 265 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: and then they began to come up with a chemical 266 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: test for this. And this one fellow, I think, if 267 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm recalling this correctly, worked in a munitions factory and 268 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: they would get negative hits on him and some of 269 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: the other workers there and that's kind of an anecdotal story, 270 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: just to try to drive home the point that you're 271 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: not always going to find it, but it is something 272 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: that is swapped for at autopsy. One of the reasons 273 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: when you see bodies many times you'll see images of 274 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: bodies and morgues and that sort of thing, or maybe 275 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: even it seems if you happen to catch a glimpse 276 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: of these, the hands will be backed, they'll be in paperbacks. 277 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: You don't put them in plastic because they begin to sweat, 278 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: and of course that spoils things. But you'll see them 279 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: wrapped in brown paper backs. And we do the gunshot 280 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: residue at the morgue, and you're looking for two things, 281 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: looking for primer residue, and primer is the little cap 282 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: that's in the base of the bullet. If you'll think 283 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: about how the base of a bullet looks, it kind 284 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: of looks like a like a bull's eye. However, this 285 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: is a twenty two caliber weapon. There's not a primer cap. 286 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: It's a rim fire, so that means that the prime 287 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 1: is going to be around the edge. So you're going 288 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: to look for primer, which is more unstable chemically, but 289 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: it creates this kind of ferocious blast and that ignites 290 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: the other substance, which is propellant, and they both have 291 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: very distinctive chemical signature. So it's important to understand that 292 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: when the weapon is discharged, you're holding it in your 293 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: hand as opposed to being on the receiving end of 294 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: the discharge of the weapon. If you're holding it in 295 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: the crook of your hand, you can get primer residue, 296 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: say in between your thumb and your index finger, and 297 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: then coming out of the other end, you're going to 298 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: get propellant, which is, you know, the gunpowder that's propelling 299 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: the projectile out of the end of the muzzle. So 300 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: there's a couple of different things you look for, and 301 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: at autopsy we take a lot of time to try 302 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: to be as careful as we possibly can be. To 303 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: swab the hands, and you swab all over. You swab 304 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: the back of the hand, in the palm, and in 305 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: between the webs of each one of the fingers. You 306 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: try to capture each one of those areas and you 307 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: do each hand separately, and that way you kind of 308 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: got this control at this point, and you submit this 309 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: test at State Crime Lab and they'll come back and 310 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: tell you if it's yea or nay, if it's there 311 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: or not. It's not a what's called a quantitative test. 312 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: It's not you know where you apply number two. It 313 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: you just say thumbs up, thumbs down. You know that 314 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: it's there or isn't there, and then they can tell 315 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: you if it's primer or propell it. And then you 316 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: have the blood spatter pattern, because if you look at 317 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: killing yourself, at committing suicide on a bed, then you 318 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: would expect the majority of the blood to be pulling 319 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: underneath you and soaked into the pill or the mattress. Yeah, 320 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: to a certain degree. And again there's not a one 321 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: off for each one of these things. A lot of 322 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: it's going to have to do with, first off, where 323 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: the round strikes the body. Okay, so let's just say, 324 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: and that's not the case in this case, but with 325 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: lots of self inflicted gunshot wounds, you'll have an oral 326 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: gunshot wound where people will place the muzzle into their 327 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: into their mouth and pull the trigger and if the 328 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: round has sufficient energy, it will burst out of the 329 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: back of the head, Okay, And that creates a different 330 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: type of dynamic relative to the blood stained pattern. That 331 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: you're going to have and you can find you know, 332 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: if say someone is seated upright, which you get lots 333 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: of times with the self inflicted oral gunshot wounds. If 334 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: they're up against a wall, for instance, which is very 335 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: convenient for the investigator, you can kind of see this 336 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: high velocity kind of staining that's going on behind the wall, 337 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: and sometimes it'll have almost a fan like pattern to it, 338 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: if you can imagine that, and the droplets will be 339 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: I like to refer to them as almost histamine like 340 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: you know, like if you think about spraying an aerosol 341 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: canister on a mirror and it gives you this tiny, 342 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: tiny little droplets because of the velocity, you only achieve 343 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: that high velocity from gunshot, won'ts Okay? We rate these 344 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 1: things relative to their velocity high velocity, medium velocity, low velocity. 345 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you're looking for is 346 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: that blast that you'll get it has enough power that 347 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: is going to generate that fine little particulate spray, and 348 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: then you know you have these other things that will happen. 349 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: There's an infamous videotape of Bud Dwire that has floated 350 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: around for years and years, and he was the Secretary 351 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: of Treasury for the State of Pennsylvania, and he took 352 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: his life live on air, and people are it's a 353 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: ghastly thing to watch. But one of the interesting takeaways 354 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: that you have is the blood dynamic in that event. 355 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: Because he uses a high caliber weapon and it's in 356 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: his mouth and you'll have this initial blast, we have 357 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: this kind of fine particular spray. But afterwards, because it's 358 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: an oral gunshot, WoT, he's disrupted all of the structures 359 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: within the hard pallette, which is the upper portion of 360 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: the mouth, that bony floor that we have in the 361 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: skull up there, all that's been fractured. You've got blood 362 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: gushing out of his mouth and out of his nose. Well, 363 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 1: that blood pattern will look completely different because it's a 364 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: different dynamic. You've got this kind of gravitational flow of 365 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: blood that's pouring out of his mouth and his nose. 366 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: And what happens in the instance when the thing is discharged, 367 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: you get that kind of it's almost like a bloody 368 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: flashbulb going off where it just kind of imparts the 369 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: spine histeman behind his head. And you can see those 370 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: two things played out on camera, and that's what you 371 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: get any self inflicted gunshot ones many times a lot 372 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: of it is pended upon where the weapon is placed anatomically, 373 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: the load, the type of ammunition that is being used, 374 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: the angle at which this thing is being discharged, because 375 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: when you think about that projectile passing through the ructures 376 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: of the skull, there are some areas of the skull 377 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: that are more robust. Okay, if you think about, for instance, 378 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: if people will just kind of touch the back of 379 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: their head, and you've got that knot on the back 380 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: of your head literally in your skull right there. That's 381 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: called the accipital protuberance, and it's one of the thicker areas. 382 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: You also have it in the frontal bone, you know 383 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: where your eyebrows are, But if you go around to 384 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: the temporal area, you know, just kind of forward and 385 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: above your ear, that bony area is very thin. So 386 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: that will give way much easier when you have the 387 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: power of this weapon as opposed to something that's going 388 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: to strike in the back of the head. In the 389 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: case of Helen though, if you've got a gunshot wound 390 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: whose entrance has been identified at the top of the head, 391 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: that trajectory is going downward, so I would think that 392 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: there will be less blood staining when you begin to 393 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: think about the dynamic of that, and it will remain 394 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: kind of self contained in that environment as opposed to 395 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: where it was going up and out. This case, Jackie, 396 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: is so very complex because of what had happened in 397 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: this environment and the family dynamic where you've got three kids, 398 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: you've got a mom that's at home in this beautiful, 399 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, million dollars residence, and the fact that the 400 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: bodies are found in these kind of desperate locations within 401 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: the structure. In my reading, and I found this quite fascinating. 402 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: Did you note that actually Fairfax County contacted a separate 403 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: agency to come in and actually do the crime scene 404 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: reconstruction because the data that was at the scene was 405 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: so very dents When it came to reconstructing this thing, 406 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: they didn't have enough manpower apparently to put their agency 407 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: to work on this. They had to give it to 408 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: an outside contractor in order to bring all of the 409 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: pieces together just to try to figure it out and 410 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: of course eventually present it in court. As these specialists 411 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: begin to recreate the scene that you're talking about, what 412 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: did they discover with the mom Pamela's death. She was 413 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: found in the laundry room, shot multiple times in the head. 414 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: When you're in this environment, you know, we can think 415 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: about what our own laundry rooms might look like. There's 416 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: many people that keep them needs a pen. There's other 417 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: folks that you know that might have dirty laundry that's 418 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: laying around for all I know. In my case, I 419 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: might have clean laundry that's laying around that I haven't 420 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: folded yet. When you're working inside of an environment like 421 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: a laundry room, if it's common in appearance to others, 422 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: it's kind of very tight spaces with little nooks and 423 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: crannies where you begin to think about, well, where do 424 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: I need to look for evidence, and the evidence that 425 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm seeing does it actually marry up with the evidence 426 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: that I have on the bodies? Okay, the wounds, perhaps 427 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: the number of spent casings, all of those, and am 428 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: I going to be able to piece this back together? 429 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: And it's a very tight space. I've worked in environments 430 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: like this where you know you're in there with one 431 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: other person in a very tight location and you're trying 432 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: to document everything, and many times what happens is you 433 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: document position of the body, you document spent shell casings, 434 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: which there were and they've never actually said how many, 435 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: but there were spent shell casings at the scene surrounding Pamela, 436 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: the mother, her body. And then of course you've got 437 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: no weapon in there, so automatically, you know, you're thinking, well, 438 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: she's been the victim of a homicide at this point, 439 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: because we don't have a weapon to indicate that this 440 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: is a suicide, that it's somewhere else. There's any number 441 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: of scenarios that they have to consider in this tight space. 442 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: First off, can someone actually access the interior of the 443 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: home through the laundry room what they're calling the laundry room. 444 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: Is it a point where people would egress into and 445 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: out of. You know, many times people will have a 446 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: laundry room and a mudroom together. That is the place 447 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: where you're gonna take off your dirty shoes and do 448 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. Is it a place where 449 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: somebody could have laid in wait and hidden and taking 450 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: the individual by surprise, they step out, they shoot the 451 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: individual one time, they go down to the ground, and 452 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: then they're going to have to readjust that is the perpetrator, 453 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: so that after the individual, Remember we talked about gravity earlier. 454 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: After the individual has fallen to the ground, perpetrator stands 455 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: over them with a long arm and fires another round 456 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: into the body. And that means that the trajectories of 457 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: these rounds are going to change. So you're firing on 458 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: a flat plane maybe initially where you initially hit them, 459 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: they go down to the ground, and then you move 460 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: to a position of dominance over them and fired down 461 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: into the body another round, and all of that has 462 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: to be taken into consideration at that point of time. 463 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: That's when you see you crimsing. Reconstructionists who actually took 464 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: over this case, we'll bring out laser markers, you'll see it. 465 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: Some agencies still use string in order to pull what 466 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: we call pulling trajectories, where you go from the point 467 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: where the round entered the body and go back, pull 468 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: the string back or shoot the laser back to a 469 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: point of origin if you will. And again it's very 470 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: difficult because it is keep using its term, but that's 471 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: the case. It's so very dynamic jack in this environment 472 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: where you've got a lot of movement. It's not like 473 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: you've got a rifle that's being fired into a static 474 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: target and nothing is moving. You've got all kinds of 475 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: motion and movement that's going on in this environment. If 476 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: somebody is initially shot, they're not going to instantaneously die 477 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: per se. You might have an individual that begins to 478 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: seize or they're falling to the floor, and you can't 479 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: anticipate what position they're going to fall in, and then 480 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: you have to get into a position of dominance. And 481 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: the other thing that you have to begin to think about, 482 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: what if the individual has never killed anybody before. The 483 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: line share of perpetrators out there have not engaged in 484 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: homicide before, So you've got that factor into You've got 485 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: nerves at work, you've got anxiety at work, you've got 486 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: rage at work. So you throw all of this into 487 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: the mix and you try to take a snapshot. If 488 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: you're the crime scene reconstructionist, that is going to at 489 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: best give you some kind of scientific point of origin 490 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: for a lot of these rounds, but sometimes it's a 491 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: guess at best. We've brought up gravity several times today. 492 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: I need to bring it up one more time. When 493 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: you are shot in the head. Most people, you know, 494 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: we rely on television, we you know, we thankfully don't 495 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: have a lot of experience with getting shot in real life. 496 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: So when you get shot in the head, are you 497 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: propelled backwards by the momentum of the shot? Do you 498 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: just drop where you are when your body is no 499 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: longer able to function? What happens? A lot of that 500 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: is going to be depended upon the position of the 501 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: victim relative to the end of the muzzle of the 502 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: weapon and kind of the orientation of the weapon. It's 503 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: not going to be something so grand and over the 504 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: top like you'll see. You know, I'm always picking on 505 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: Hollywood on bodybacks, but you know, they you see people 506 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: blown back in these you know, things that are staged 507 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: in the entertainment world, and that's that's for the purpose 508 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: of making something appear very dramatic. And there are many 509 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: accounts out there where people are shot and they're not 510 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: aware that they've been shot. If somebody takes a shotgun 511 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: blast to the chest at close range, just the energy 512 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: transfer that you have alone is going to blow them 513 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: back a bit. But they're not going to do somersaults, 514 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: all right. And contrary to what you see on television 515 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: with around like this, where you're kind of taking unaware 516 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: if an individual is shot from behind, so they're shot 517 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: in the back of the head. They're going to take 518 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: that round and drop like deadweight at that moment time 519 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: to the ground. It doesn't mean that they die instantaneously. 520 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: If the brainstem is not clipped, you're still going to 521 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: have you know, things like agonal respirations and the heart 522 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: will still be pumping for a little bit until you 523 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: bleed out. But I don't know that in the conscious 524 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: mind that they actually have an awareness that this has happened. 525 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: So you're not going to have an individual that is 526 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: blown out of the room just because they're shot. The 527 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: ideas to transfer the energy from that projectile into the body, 528 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: and that energy disperses into the body and it does 529 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: massive destruction, okay, And a lot of that is upon 530 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: the size of the AMMO that's being used and the 531 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: type of MMO that's being used. You know, you hear 532 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: a lot about people talking about ball round ammunition, which 533 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: is you know, a ball around. It's just kind of 534 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: a catch all term that people use relative to a 535 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: lead core projectile that's not modified necessarily any way. But 536 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: then you talk about hollow point so called hollow point 537 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: ammunition that it let's say you're firing a forty caliber 538 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: bullet that is hollow point, and when it strikes the 539 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: target area, it expands out, and it might expand out 540 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: from say forty caliber, which is point four z, it 541 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: might expand out to say point four eight. So you 542 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: get this expansion transfer of energy. The round stops in 543 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: the body and they drop. But with twenty two caliber ammunition, 544 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: most of the time it's going to be standard ball ammunition, 545 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: where you've got this little bit of lead that's transferring 546 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: into the body and it's going to transfer that amount 547 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: of energy that is being generated from the muzzle blast. 548 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: It goes without saying. As a death investigator, and I 549 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: know I can speak for myself, I can't necessarily speak 550 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: for my colleagues, but as a death investigator, I got 551 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: quite jaded. Particularly towards the end of my career. I 552 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: stopped trying to figure out, necessarily in a broader sense, 553 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: what had happened, you know, what the motivations were. One 554 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: of the issues that has always kind of left me 555 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: scratching my head many times, you know me, I hate 556 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: to ask the question why because there's generally not a 557 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: solid answer. No one will ever be satisfied with why. 558 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: But when you walk into an environment where a goodly 559 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: portion of a family. And in this case we're talking 560 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: about Pamela and Helen are dead. Their lives have been 561 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: snuffed out. I don't know if there is any other 562 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: question to ask, why would you end their lives in 563 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: this environment where seemingly at least from a material since 564 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: they had everything, and that may have been part of 565 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: the problem here. Joe Ultimately police charged the eldest daughter, Megan, 566 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: and what was revealed was a jealousy with the younger 567 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: daughter over money. She felt like the younger daughter was 568 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: being favored. We know that the youngest daughter, Helen, had 569 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: just graduated from college and Pamela had paid for a house. 570 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: Megan also wanted a new home. Megan and her daughter 571 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: had been living with Pamela for several years, even though 572 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: Megan was married and her husband lived in another state. 573 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: With the recognition when police came onto the scene that 574 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: this was staged, how did they start to look at 575 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: Megan and what were the clues? The first clue came 576 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: from the nine one one call, which came from Helen's boyfriend. 577 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: She called him and told him that Megan had killed 578 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: their mother. So that was the first clue, even before 579 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: they got to the scene and could recognize it. That 580 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: was a big red flag. You kidn't. You're absolutely right. 581 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: Much of the time you're going to be speaking with 582 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: the principles in the case, that is, the individuals that 583 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: have direct involvement. That kind of will give you an 584 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: idea as an investigators to what is happening at a scene. 585 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: You've already processed the scene to a certain degree, and 586 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: then things don't necessarily make sense. Remember what we had 587 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: said earlier on that the police had thought from the 588 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: beginning that this was a murder suicide. But you know, 589 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: they walk in and things don't seem to add up, 590 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, to what you would normally think about the 591 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 1: physical evidence that you're going to be finding that would 592 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 1: make it consistent with a murder suicide. You document the scene, 593 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: you go through everything that you have to go through, 594 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: and then after you've left the scene and you begin 595 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: to do follow up investigation, you're canvassing one of the 596 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: things that you know, you canvass neighborhoods and all that 597 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and then you look through, say, for instance, 598 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: phone contacts for victims, and you see that Helen has 599 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: been in contact with her boyfriend and of course, he's 600 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: one that actually drew the police's attention to this. When 601 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: you sit down and you begin to question him. Can 602 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: you imagine their shock when he reveals to them that, 603 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, I've got my girlfriend on the phone, couldn't 604 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: get her back on. And this is after she tells 605 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: me that her sister had had killed her mother. And 606 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that the horror that kind of ran 607 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: through you know, that ran through him when the phone 608 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: went dead. I mean, that does sound like something that 609 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: Hollywood would create. You know, it's bone chilling, you know 610 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about it and you think 611 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: about where does this information lead us? And they have 612 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: to be very very careful at this point because they 613 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: don't want to show their hand. You know, they've got 614 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: some kind of some kind of circumstantial comment that the 615 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: boyfriend has made, because you know, he's kind of an 616 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: ear witness, if you will, to this information that's coming 617 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: in from you know, his girlfriend who's now deceased. You 618 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: don't want to do anything as an investigator that's going 619 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: to frighten away a potential suspect, so you continue to 620 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: play your hand out as if it is in fact 621 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: I murder suicide just so that you can get information 622 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: from them. And of course, when they begin to dig 623 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 1: into the relationship that you know that the daughter actually 624 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: had with her mother, and you begin to understand that 625 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: there's this issue of jealousy that's going on, that she's 626 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: wanting money, that she wants to buy her own house, 627 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: and these sorts of things, and none of that is 628 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: happening for her. You know, pieces begin to fall into 629 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: place at that point. As usual, I'm going to back 630 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: up on your little When the boyfriend called police, he 631 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: told police, and during the course of the name on 632 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: one called, we find that he had several conversations with 633 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: his girlfriend, Helen, trying to convince her to get out 634 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,439 Speaker 1: of the house. But he mentioned that while Helen did 635 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: not see the mother's body through the cracked door, he 636 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: could hear the mother gasping for breath. What does that 637 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: tell you, Well, that means that we were talking about 638 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: the power of the gunshot wound that she had sustained earlier. 639 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: And I'd mentioned an respiration, which is it's almost you know, 640 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: some people will term it as a death rattle, where 641 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: you know, people are right on the edge of succumbing 642 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: to a disease or an injury that they have sustained. 643 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: It's this gasp where they're still breathing, the heart is 644 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: still pumping, but there's been so much destruction, particularly in 645 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: this case to the head where you're you know, the 646 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: circumstances making incompatible with life at that moment, and life 647 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: is literally ebbing away from the victim. And the fact 648 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: that he was in fact an ear witness to this 649 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: again chills you to the bone because that's something that 650 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: you know he'll certainly never forget and it's something he'll 651 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: live with for all of his days. So, combining all 652 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: of this information, when police arrive at the scene again 653 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: they recognize that it is not an actual murder suicide. 654 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: They recognize that it is staged. Then they have to 655 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: go about trying to figure out who did it. We 656 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: know that the boyfriend said, according to Helen, that Megan 657 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 1: had killed their mother. Police began to piece together the who, what, when? Where? 658 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 1: Whiian how how do they do that? Where did they start? 659 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: I mean, we ultimately find out that Megan was caught 660 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: or heard, I guess you would say, trying to impersonate 661 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: the mother on the phone at the bank to transfer 662 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: money to buy her own home. There was a text 663 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: sent to the boyfriend on Helen's phone which said everything 664 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: is fine, I'm not mad at Megan, which the boyfriend 665 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: said he never thought that that actually came from his girlfriend. 666 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: And then there's other evidence from the day before where 667 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: we know now that Megan was trying to get money 668 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: from the mother because she would not pay for this 669 00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: home that she wanted. So what's the starting point? And mean, 670 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 1: do you just started to say, Okay, let's check the phones, 671 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: let's check the computer. I mean, what do you do? 672 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: This is one of these interesting points in time where 673 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: I think that the medical examiner really comes into play here, 674 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: particularly when you begin to attempt to calculate post mortal manerabal. 675 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: You know, you were talking about this text that went out. 676 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: Did the medical legal authorities, through their due diligence at 677 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: seen when they begin to do body temperatures in the 678 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: state of rigor mortis and all those things relative to 679 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: the bodies and compare that, say, for instance, that data 680 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: would be given over to the police because they have 681 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: a marker in time when this text that allegedly originated 682 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,720 Speaker 1: from Helen came out. So that's a static marker and time, 683 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,879 Speaker 1: and one of the things you're trying to establish scientifically 684 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: with the body, is it possible, given the timeframe of 685 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: the changes post mortem, for her to have sent this text. 686 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 1: And that's one of the basic places you're going to start. 687 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: And then there's time signatures relative to everything you do 688 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: in the digital world. And in this case, you had 689 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: this daughter going in and attempting to fake her mother 690 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: or pretend that she was her mother, at least over 691 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: the phone. And then secondly, there's a wire transfer that's 692 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: taking place that's actually sending moneies to a title holding 693 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 1: company for the daughter's home and it's coming out of 694 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: the mother's account and this is upwards of four hundred 695 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So you know, the police are beginning to 696 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: piece all of this together. You know what's the motivation 697 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: behind all of this? And your fallback position is as 698 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: an investigator, you begin to kind of look at these 699 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: tried and true points along a continuum that we always 700 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: default to, and that's you know, motive, the means, the opportunity, 701 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: and who would have this within the circle Because you 702 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: begin to look and you think, well, did some random 703 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: stranger actually come in and bring about the deaths of 704 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: these individuals. We've already kind of eliminated at this point 705 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: that it is a murder suicide. The police are looking 706 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: at this as this is they're working this now is 707 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: at double homicide based upon the information that's coming in 708 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: from the m E. And then you think about, well, 709 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: where did they get a weapon from? Who does the 710 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: weapon tie back to? Does a family have a history 711 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: of having weapons? Is this a weapon that belongs to 712 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: the family, who had access to the weapon, who had 713 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,879 Speaker 1: experience with a weapon, who would have known where it was. So, 714 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, once you establish the fact that your field 715 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: begins to kind of narrow as to who the suspects 716 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: could be in this environment, who would be motivated in 717 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: order to do this. You know, I think that it's 718 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: at that point that you're going to focus in on 719 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: the daughter in this particular case, because you know that 720 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,479 Speaker 1: this is not a randomized act of violence. You begin 721 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: to look at the scene. You know that it's again 722 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: our old adage about enough signs of forced entry or struggle. 723 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: There's no evidence of that at the scene. There's no 724 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,919 Speaker 1: indication that this is what happened. There was a force 725 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: centery in a struggle, and that you've got these two 726 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: individuals that have been killed in this manner, you've got 727 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: kind of a controlled environment where everything's kind of self 728 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: contained in there, and you have to ask you who 729 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: would have had this ability began. Hargan was brought in 730 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: for questioning five days after the murders, but she was 731 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: not arrested and charged for a year. So, if I 732 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: understand this correctly, it took that amount of time for 733 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: police to do their due diligence and investigation to find 734 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: and connect the dots for the suspect. In this case, 735 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: it did, and you know, this is it's kind of 736 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: a complex case because not only do you have the 737 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: physical evidence at the scene, but you have all of 738 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: this digital evidence and certainly the financial evidence. And it's 739 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: actually a multi jurisdictional case as well, which is kind 740 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 1: of fascinating because they had partners and I think both 741 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: West Virginia and and I think probably to a certain 742 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: extent that they called on resources from the FEDS as well. 743 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: So anytime you get that many people, if you will 744 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 1: pardon the term, but you know, kind of dancing together 745 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: in this environment, then you'll have varied interest and you 746 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: have to make sure. That's why it's so important that 747 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: you have a strong leader relative to the lead investigator 748 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: on the case, because they're kind of the conductor, if 749 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: you will, and I mean that from a conductor of 750 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: an orchestra. They have to make sure that everybody is 751 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: playing on the same sheet of music, and then to 752 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: get the courts involved as well, relative to all of 753 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: the search warrants that have to take place. I can 754 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: only imagine that when you begin to look at the 755 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: case file on not just this case, but the multiple 756 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 1: cases that resulted from it. There's multiple charges involved in 757 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: this and all of these various issues, it would look 758 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: rather voluminous. You're going to have volume upon upon volume 759 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,240 Speaker 1: of data that's going to be analyzed and scrutinized in court. 760 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, it would take some time to put this together. 761 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: And in plus, you know, this is a very high 762 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 1: profile case where you've got multiple deaths in a very 763 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: affluent area. I mean, let's just face it, it is, 764 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: and they wanted to make sure that they had everything 765 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,360 Speaker 1: just right before they charged her. A jury found Megan 766 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: Hargan guilty on all counts, including first degree murder in 767 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 1: the depths of her sister Helen and her mother Pamela. 768 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.