1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: I've never told you protection of I heart radios. How 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: stuff works today we're talking about names. Yes, I love 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: your surprise. I totally bought it. Like you know, this 5 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: is how it goes, which is why everybody's like, I 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: don't think that is what she's talking about. I'm a 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: really good actor. She's not at all all in act. Everyone. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: Speaking of acting, y'all, we got to watch Any in 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: her premier movie called Any in the City. Yes, it 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 1: was delightful. Thank you. I really appreciate the support everybody 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: came out because I was so nervous. Yeah, you did 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: a great job. I was really just I was nervous 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: for you. There was a couple of things I was like, 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: oh no, it was funny because everyone was that they 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: would turn and look at me. I was trying not 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: to look at you, and I would sink further. But 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: I was so good. A great job. Thank you, Thank you. Producer. Yes, yes, 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: maybe one day it will be available maybe. Okay, well 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: I don't make any money from you too, but I 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: guess I'll just get it out to the public. That's 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: what happens. Let people see your work. I need them 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: in the craftsmanship, thank you, because there's so much craft 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: woman this ship. I'm sorry craftwomanship geez. Anyway, we're talking 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: about names today. There is a point in that movie 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: where one of the other characters is named Annie and 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: she says I asked her how she spells it, and 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: she's like what, and I say, well, I spell it 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: a little bit differently. We're gonna get into that a 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: little bit later. Um. But one of our most popular 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: and controversial episodes ever since I've been on and I 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: think probably ever, was women taking their significant others, typically 32 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: husband's last name. So we wanted to revisit this, but 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: this time talk about given names and family names and 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: why it's so rare to have a woman with the 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: suffix like a junior. And the whole reason we're doing 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: this is because one night I couldn't sleep and got 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: to thinking about first Robert Downey Jr. And then other 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: juniors and then there are no women juniors. Episode Yes, 39 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: and the short answer is the patriarchy obviously right. And 40 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: before a lot of you write in angrily about why 41 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: you chose your child's name, these are generalizations. There is research. 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: We're not here to judge anybody. Um, name your child 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: as you see fit. Yes, that's feminism. The choice is 44 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: what matters, Um, But we did want to discuss why 45 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: society at large still views women and all things feminine, 46 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: even in names, as lesser and there have been a 47 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: few news stories about this lately. After Serena Williams named 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: her daughter Alexis Junior, after the child's father, Alexis O'Hannon, 49 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: who is the founder of Reddit, there are a whole 50 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: sections on mum's net about how to name your daughter 51 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: after the father. When Nigel Vosson named his daughter Nigella, 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: that's a great example father's first and last name. Hard 53 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: to imagine the inverse a boy named after his mother 54 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: with her last name. Yeah, celebrities do have a lot 55 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: of sway over naming practices. Dakota and Shirley, as in 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: Shirley Temple, Dakota, Fanning Um were more masculine names before 57 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: the first famous people bearing that name were women, and 58 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: then it kind of shifted and they became more coded 59 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: as feminine. Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively named their daughter 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: James and Mela Cunas, and Ashton Kutcher's daughter is named Wyatt, 61 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: and then they're the gender neutral names like Paris and 62 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: Apple and Blue Ivy, et cetera. I do appreciate the creativity. Sure, 63 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: I was named after my dad's mother, but through a 64 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: series of adoptions, I'm not sure what her last name was, 65 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: so I'm not technically a junior. I think it was Griggs. 66 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: It was not Reese, which is my current last name. 67 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: Rights like the Candy. That's someone I always say when 68 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: people ask how to spell it, like the Candy. I 69 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: appreciate that. And I actually have two names, my Korean 70 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: name and my American name. I started claim both for me. 71 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: Keeping my original name was an important way of trying 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: to keep my origins and remember them. But I also 73 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: have my Korean family name as my American middle name. 74 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: So my Korean family name is Lee, and that's my 75 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: middle name. Now you guys know so much about me, Um, 76 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: I will say. I typically get called Sam a lot, 77 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: which I do like because it's not automatically assumed to 78 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: be female, because I wasn't sure if you liked being 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: called saying yeah, So typically I find out, which I 80 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: think is a whole different thing. People who are closest 81 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: to me call me Samantha, they don't actually short shorten it, 82 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: and then people who are not as close or maybe 83 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: let met letter in life call me sam So and 84 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: I like it. I like if it's just fine, Okay. 85 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: When I was a kid that I wanted a name 86 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: like that was feminine in its full form, but masculine 87 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: and it's shortened form our gender neutral right, actually had 88 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: roommates where our names all equal to be like Sam 89 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: Joe something something like. It was all sounding very not 90 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: masculine necessarily, but at least neutral, and no one kind. 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I guess who's in there. You'll 92 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: never sure unless you come and meet us, and then 93 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: if you know us so, but you know what I mean. 94 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: I'm also a person who's collected a lot of nicknames 95 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: over my my career, of my life, um, and I 96 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: would love to look into there's probably not any research 97 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: about this, but nicknaming practices and different countries and among 98 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: different genders that works. I was gonna say that the 99 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: older generation, I had several of them call me automatically 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: save me Davis Jr. So I don't know if they 101 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: just like take something that's familiar from their past and 102 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: just place it on before. Yeah, a lot of people 103 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: just call me that. Well, it's a famous junior. I 104 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: have a nickname for our producer Andrew, and he does 105 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: not love it, but I do. I love it. You 106 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: always have a nickname, but this is the best one. 107 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: It's so long, and it makes it keeps growing every time. 108 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: I know. My friends later asking about it, like, what 109 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: was it again, and I said, I think it changes, 110 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: it gets longer. Among Oh, no, I've got it established, 111 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: I've got the core, but I keep adding to it. 112 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it because I think Andrew 113 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 1: and would me. Before we get into the longer answer 114 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: other than just the patriarchy, is why this whole naming 115 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: thing with juniors and all that exists. Um. The main 116 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: difference between junior and something like the second is someone 117 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: with the junior suffix is named after someone still living, 118 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: typically the father, while the second is usually not the 119 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: father but the grandfather or uncle. Women typically don't get 120 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: these suffixes because of the common practice of taking the 121 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: husband's last name after marriage. So it's a very very 122 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: short answer to this question that kept me up at night, 123 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: but we did expound upon it a lot. Um. George 124 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: Foreman is an exception, I suppose, because all five of 125 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: his kids are named after them, and I think the 126 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: first one is junior, and then their like second, third, fourth. 127 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: That was a commercial with him having all of his 128 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: children around, right, and the confusion of his name came 129 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: out or something, because what they're all George? I like that, 130 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: and I like how will and Jada Pinkett Smith. I 131 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: guess it's Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith. Um did it? 132 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: Which they switched up the daughter and the sons Willow 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: yes and Jaden Yeah to me for a long took 134 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: me a long time to forigo out who who was 135 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: whom because it was not typical um and obviously it 136 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: was a variation and not exactly the same. But I 137 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: appreciate that I did not know that until you minutes 138 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: ago when you told me it. Because I knew their names, 139 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: I just never put together. Really, yes, I just never 140 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: put it together. I don't know. And I did want 141 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: to put at the top here before we get into this. 142 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: Names can be really powerful. They can shape how people 143 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: see us and how we see ourselves and a lot 144 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: of our entertainment. Knowing a name gives you power over someone, 145 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: whether it's something like rumpel, deal skin or a demon 146 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: possessing you, and you need to know their name is 147 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: probably possessing a young girl because periods. That's my that's 148 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: my theory, right, it's always about periods. That one. I 149 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: think that's pretty I'm with you on that one. And 150 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: I think it's also how they do the naming ceremonies 151 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: in several different places. I think that makes it a 152 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: pretty significant like this is you know, um with a monarch. 153 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: They make it a big deal. This is so always 154 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: usually they have to names. Do you do you? Because 155 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: I know that's lineage all about it, but yeah, it's 156 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: a bit powerful or deal in a celebration. Research has 157 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: shown that liking your name can increase productivity, self esteem, 158 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: and happiness. It can impact your overall mental health and 159 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: self perception. And I know for me, I hated my 160 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: name for a long long time. I tried to change 161 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: it when I was nine years old. I went to 162 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: the court and they were like, your young, young girl, 163 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: you actually went to court. I asked. I asked how 164 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: I could do it, and they said, you can't unless 165 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: your parents are on board. Because it was just me. Yeah, 166 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: I really didn't like it. I wanted to change it 167 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: to Gloria, so I would have had a very different life. 168 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: And that's the power of a name. Gloria. Huh. Indeed, 169 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: And I do think it caused me to have low 170 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: self esteem when I was in school because so many 171 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: people mispronounced it, commented on it, or asked me if 172 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: I was sure that's how I spelled it right. Yeah, 173 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: Naming people can also be powerful. I've never named a person, 174 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: but I have named pets, and it felt really important. 175 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: I know it's not on the same level, but it 176 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: did feel important, like I was mapping out my dog's 177 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: entire life. Well, yeah, I actually growing up, I never 178 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: named things because to me, it was a mental block 179 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: that they were going to exist and continue to exist, 180 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: and I could not link that too. Yeah, because it 181 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: gives it's a real deep psychosis, Like I couldn't link 182 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: that into being permanent, so therefore they didn't get a name. 183 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of like in a breakfast a Tiffany she 184 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: named for she never names the cat. It's just cat 185 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: or big fat slob. I think she calls it um 186 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: or big slobs fat. She says slob because she's like, 187 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: he's not owned by anyone. He doesn't belong to anyone. 188 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: He's free. Um And for me that was the opposite. 189 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: But then as I got older than I realized, oh yeah, 190 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: naming things could be fine, which is like Peaches Coachy mcfuzzlin. 191 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 1: She has to have a very significant name so I 192 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: can yell at her properly. I have I name all 193 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: kinds of things, like in my car as a name 194 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: Enid lean Or. I can't do that either. I was 195 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: so ill when in and lean Or meets her end though, 196 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: I'll have a little ceremony for her, I will, she's 197 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: been in my car. I think that a lot of 198 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: people do that, you know, they put this significance on 199 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: there because there's a deeper meaning. And that's why for me, 200 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: I never could get attached to things like that, so 201 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: it didn't make sense, right, Yeah, weird, weird. Another thing 202 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: that's weird is when I was dating. During my dating days, 203 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: I used to say someone's name more frequently as a 204 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: flirting technique. And now I really don't know if it 205 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: was successful or just weird. I don't know. I think 206 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: that there's a power to that, especially if you say 207 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: their name in a flirty manner or lately, you know, 208 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: it's one syllable, but you make it ten syllables long 209 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: and you touch them. Yeah, that's some significance to that, Okay. Um, 210 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: there there are things like the CEO test not in 211 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: the dating world, where we attach certain expectations to names. 212 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: Names are associated with social status and aspirations. I know 213 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: there was that a couple of years ago, that thing 214 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: that came out that said your name might influence your occupations. Um. Also, 215 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: I was looking through the names on that CEO list 216 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: and they are largely male names. Um. Studies have also 217 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: found that when it comes to politicians, Americans prefer candidates 218 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: with simpler names. Of course, I'm sure that has to 219 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: do with like memory factor as well. Bob. It just 220 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: sounds happy Bob. I'm not really sure what I'm some Bob, right, 221 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a fun name. I don't know 222 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: a Bob, I don't think. Okay. So also think of 223 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: the racism and sexism inherent in hiring practices. We've all 224 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: heard about the studies that found there that candidates with 225 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: a name coded as more traditionally black on a resume 226 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: is less likely to be picked up for the job 227 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: as opposed to a more traditional Western white name, UM. 228 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: And I know that's also significant for people who are 229 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: if any heritage, If it's a difficult name to pronounce, 230 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: they're going to change it altogether. So maybe a traditional 231 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: Chinese name or traditional Korean name is going to change 232 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: it into Philip, right, So, and we will come back 233 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: to that a little bit towards the end. Um Or 234 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: Or another fact the fact that women with more masculine 235 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: sounding names are more likely to find success and male 236 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: dominated careers. A study has found this to be true 237 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: among judges in South Carolina, where email judges with names 238 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: coded as more masculine had better chances of success as 239 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: compared to their counterparts with more feminine names. This is 240 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: called the Porsche hypothesis, after a female character from Shakespeare's 241 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: The Merchant of Venice. In order to appear before the 242 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: all male court, she disguised herself as male. If we 243 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: look at authors, it's not uncommon for women to use 244 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: a male pen name, or it used not to be illegally. 245 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: It's a bit more difficult now. And I know because 246 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: I looked into it briefly. UM Or their initials as J. K. 247 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: Rowling was advised to do to not scare off young 248 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: boys from a book written by a lady. Right? Didn't 249 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: she also change have a pen name for her murder mystery? 250 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: That was not? Or was it murder mystery? Yeah? Their 251 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: murder mystery Robert Gayle Brieve hapronounce the last name, but 252 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: yes she did. Historically, the practice of taking more masculine 253 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: names has been acceptable and trendy for women. This is 254 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: not a new thing at all. In fact, some names 255 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: that were once traditionally masculine became coded feminine after enough 256 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: women for the name as Lee and Shannon are great examples, 257 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: and funnily enough, one of the only site suggesting girls 258 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: names for boys includes those names, so it's all a cycle. 259 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: Over the past decade, the practice of giving girls boys 260 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,239 Speaker 1: names has been an overwhelming trend and also hyper masculine 261 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: names they're on the rise to like Jack's was an example. 262 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: I saw j a x X oh yeah yeah. But 263 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: giving a boy a feminine name not so much at all. 264 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: In two of the most popular boys names, Noah and 265 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: James were given to about one and seventy girls each. 266 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: The top ten popular girls names were given to as 267 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: little as six boys as little last six bloys, and 268 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: that's in the top ten Um. Giving a girl a 269 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: boy's name is seen as bucking gender norms, But the 270 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: traits a lot of parents are after when choosing a 271 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: masculine name for a girl, UM are things like strength 272 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: or the cool factor, and desirable traits because masculine in 273 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: itself is desirable. This isn't to say it can't be 274 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: empowering for girls at all. We've already said we like 275 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: it when I would have liked it, UM. But the 276 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: fact that a boy's name is inherently better, that's the problem, right, UM. 277 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: It's all well and good for girls to be associated 278 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: with masculinity while still being feminine, but for boys, being 279 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: associated with femininity is a definite negative. This is another 280 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: example of a higher status group UM not wanting to 281 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: take on anything from a lower status group. And those 282 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: those are actual terms that come up in this conversation. 283 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: And we have talked about this in a handful of episodes, 284 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: actually in our Final Girls episode, UM, and the discussion 285 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: around how the final Girl not uncommonly has a masculine 286 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: coded name or a gender neutral kind of name, or 287 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: in our video games episode and the practice of using 288 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: a male or gender neutral screen name to avoid harassment. 289 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: Something I definitely did and was still her assed, so 290 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: they really I know she's thinking. I can sense it 291 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: um once that he found a connection between boys given 292 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: more traditionally feminine names experiencing more difficulties at school. And 293 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of a joke parents to be 294 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: running through the possible rhymes and insults of a potential 295 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: bad name. So dude names good lady names. That's a 296 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: big thing. The parents to be will not tell people 297 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: their names so they don't hear other people's judgments. That's 298 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: true from the beginning. I can I can relate to 299 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: that very on a very minor level. It reminds me 300 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: of the episode of Seinfeld where he's dating the woman 301 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: and he doesn't know her name and she gives him 302 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: a hand. She says, can you imagine how tough it 303 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: was growing up with a name that rhymes with stuff 304 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: like a female body, part of something. And he spent 305 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: so long trying to get it. It's not to the 306 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: very end he's like, Dolores's a bad name. I don't 307 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: think so. So another fount and it's another. Another study 308 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: found that while women with gender neutral names were seen 309 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: as more masculine, boys with ginger neutral names were seen 310 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: as more feminine, and another study suggested that girls with 311 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: ginger neutral names were more likely to take advanced math 312 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: and science. The author of the website Baby Naming Wizard 313 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: received angry letters from parents who named their son Riley 314 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: after she listed the name under both boys and girls sections. 315 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: So she got angry letters from parents who named their 316 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: son Riley, saying those is definitely not a name for girls. 317 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: I love the name Riley too, and I think it's 318 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: gender neutral. Yeah, now I guess I have I have 319 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: a cousin name Riley. Anyway, we have a lot more 320 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: for you in this whole name game, but first we're 321 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: gonna pause for a quick break for a word from 322 00:17:44,960 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor here. So okay, Uh. 323 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: The longer answer to this whole question that I originally 324 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: started with was why are there no juniors female juniors? 325 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: Is throughout our history, naming someone has been practical. It's 326 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: been a practical thing. First a family name to identify 327 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: you as part of a tribe, a tribe of people 328 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: who had to stick by you and would protect you. 329 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: And then a given name to separate you from the 330 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: rest of your family. Sometimes for boys in ancient Rome, 331 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: that name was simply a number. How what birth order 332 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: were you? For girls born in ancient Rome, though, their 333 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: names often contained description, since they shared the feminine form 334 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: of the family name, often minus the given name. For example, 335 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: General Scipio's Africanus his family name was Cornelius, so his 336 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: daughter's got the names Cornelia Africana major and Cornelia Africana Minor, 337 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: Big Cornelia and Little Cornelia. These are largely birth order names. 338 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: But then parents started naming children generationally after ancestors. For 339 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: most cultures, this followed patronymics names coming from the father. 340 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: Take Vladimir Putin. His middle name translates to son of Vladimir, 341 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: so he's Vladimir's son of Vladimir. Girls names were often 342 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: derived from their father's names as well. Religious names were 343 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: also huge. I know at one point, I can't remember 344 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: the statistics, but it was shocking how many women were 345 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: named Mary. It was a huge thing, especially in Europe. 346 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: There's several men named Francis, Francis and John was the 347 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: big one for it was John and Mary. Oh supernatural, huh. Well. 348 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: Naming after the mother and the mother's side, however, has 349 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: historically become uncommon. Someone with a mother's name in the 350 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds were often bastards. Yeah, so they might not 351 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: know who the father was, or he might not be 352 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: in the picture. We don't claim him. Yeah, that's how 353 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: that goes. Even if you think about the practice in 354 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: some countries of taking the last names of both the 355 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: father and the mother, it still boils down to the 356 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: names of two men, the father's family name and the 357 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: maternal grandfather. And as the important as a family and 358 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: religion has, the minished names have become more a matter 359 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: of taste, which is nice. Yeah. There are, of course 360 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: exceptions to the rule. Um here a few famous ones, 361 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: starting big with Achilles. Achilles frequently went by Son of Fatus, 362 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: his mother the sea goddess, probably because she was a 363 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: goddess and his dad was just dude. Like he was 364 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: a higher up dude, but he was just a dude. 365 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: So if we think of it as a power structure, 366 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: the goddess outranks human, but human man outranks human woman. 367 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: Of course, then there's Nancy Sinatra. She sometimes goes by 368 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: Nancy Sinatra Jr. She's the daughter Frank Sinatra and Nancy 369 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: Barbados Sinatra. It still feels kind of more like a 370 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: tribute to her father though, because her mother took her 371 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: father's last name. But maybe that's just that's just me. 372 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: Then there's Anna Eleanor Roosevelt Jr. President FDR's firstborn, only 373 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: daughter and legal documents, and a frequently was referred to 374 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: as the second and her mother senior, child prodigy and 375 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: author of in Columbus Sailed the Ocean Blue. When A 376 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: Fred Zackville Stoner Jr. Was named for her mother, whom 377 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: she toured with, and then fragrance designer Carolina Herrera Jr. 378 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: Is named after her mother, the fashion designer, and then 379 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: Dorothy Fuldham, the broadcast journalist, made her daughter a junior. 380 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: Another perhaps obvious example we should mention is the royal family, 381 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: where you have someone like Elizabeth the second royal blood 382 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: family line being everything. And then as I was researching 383 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: with this, it was fun just to hear about the 384 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: phonetics of sound being feminine and masculine. And according to 385 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: one study, names that start with the hard phenomes are or, 386 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: as defined by definitions dot com, any of the perceptually 387 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: distinct units of sound in a specified language that distinguished 388 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: one word from another are more likely used for boys 389 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: or male names, while the softer oh names are place 390 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: with the feminine names. As in fact, sound gender association 391 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: was the strongest in those who most highly endorsed that 392 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: stereotype of men being tough and when women as being tender. 393 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: So like this U S and the in in India. 394 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: I remember my friend group growing up. We all we 395 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: had a moment where we realize almost all of our 396 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: names ended in a vowel sound like or uh. And 397 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: that's a pretty big one for feminine coded names. We 398 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: do have even more name stuff, but first we have 399 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: one more quick break for word from our sponsor and 400 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor. Another aspect we wanted to 401 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: discuss is changing your name as a transgender person. Changing 402 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: your name is a harrowing, arduous process, and the law 403 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: varies by state and by country, but in the US 404 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: it frequently involves going to probate court, paying a fee 405 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: so not accessible for everyone being a resident of a 406 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: state for a certain time period, printing a notification in 407 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: a newspaper, also usually with a fee. You have to 408 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: do that to announce the name at least a month 409 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: in advance, and giving the court a reason for the 410 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: name change, and if all that successful, next steps involve 411 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: changing your name with the Social Security Office, on your license, 412 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: on your passport, on websites, at the bank, with your landlord, 413 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: utility companies, if you have any student loans, and then 414 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: beyond that. Changing your name as a trance person is 415 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: helpful for job applications or when meeting new folks, as 416 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: we discuss, for better or worse, we assigned gender to 417 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: names pretty frequently, and a name can change how people 418 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: see you. It is often one of the first public 419 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: steps of transitioning. Not all trans people change their names, 420 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: sometimes out of choice because they already have a general 421 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: neutral name, or maybe it's not that important to them, 422 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes out of fear or lack of resources. It 423 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: can and off and does take years to legally change 424 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: your name and the gender markers on documents. Not to 425 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: mention many of those documents don't have an option for 426 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: nonconforming right and I also wanted to mention dead naming 427 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: as well. This is calling a trans person the name 428 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: they had prior to their transition. Don't do this. Choosing 429 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: a name and having people calling you by the name 430 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: is hugely important validating step. It's a more truthful representation 431 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: To call someone by their dead names, even if you're 432 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,479 Speaker 1: talking about them prior to their transition. It's really disrespectful, hurtful, 433 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: and can cause a lot of anxiety, dysphoya, in doubt. 434 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: And when it comes to police reporting violence against trans 435 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: people and using the increate names or pronounced that impacts data, 436 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: which impacts funding and attention. Also, just again to reiterate 437 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: how difficult it is to actually be able to change 438 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: the name they earned. This also, this is who they are. Yeah, 439 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: And I did want to say for anyone who's listening 440 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: to this and thinking about doing it, but it doesn't 441 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: have the funds or resources, are maybe as overwhelmed. There 442 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: are um, definitely nonprofits out there that specialize in this, right, Um, 443 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: so go check that out if you have. I'm assuming 444 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: you would have. You know more than I know about it, 445 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: But I didn't want to say also there are people 446 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: that do support you, and and and I don't think 447 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: people realize how significant of a process this was. And 448 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: I say this as a person who I when I 449 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: changed my name, I'd legally changed my name from the 450 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: Korean name to my American name. It was significant because 451 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: it felt like I belonged to a family. So I 452 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: can't imagine feeling like you've been mislabeled all of your 453 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: life and not being able to be true to who 454 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: you are and then being able to actually do it 455 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: and for people to ignore that. How painful that is, um, 456 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: And just feeling accepted into a community because already they 457 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: feel ostracized with everything else they already have to go through. Yep. 458 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: And I think the validate is a small thing you 459 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: can do we as we as I allows can do. 460 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: It's not that big of a deal. Don't be a jerk, 461 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: a jerk speaking of jerks. Right, Donald Jump was elected, 462 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: there was a banicked rush to change names on passports, 463 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 1: um in the trans community to reflect gender identity before 464 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: he took office and stripped away protections around trans and 465 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: gender nonconforming people. And we can see he's doing that, yep. Um. 466 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: When Caitlyn Jenner came out as transgender, the name and 467 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: all spelling variations thereof of Caitlin plummeted and popularity. So 468 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: that shows, um, just how far we have to come 469 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: as a society. All right, And another important conversation around 470 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: names and naming his names in black communities, As we 471 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top, there have been studies demonstrating that 472 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: job candidates with black sounding names, and I say that 473 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: with quotes are less likely to get the position, even 474 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: given qualifications that are the same. Up until the nineteen sixties, 475 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: Anglo American names were the go to for most of 476 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: African American children, but in the seventies, with the rise 477 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: of the Black Power movement, that changed. It was a 478 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: way for black folks to differentiate from white people, and 479 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: it was a sign of resistance. Roots. The book and 480 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: resulting in many series played a large role in this 481 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: as well. Plenty of folks stuck to Anglo American names, 482 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: and these days the most popular names for black children 483 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: are a Leah, gabrielle Kiera, Cameron, Jordan, and Nathan and 484 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: plenty and plenty of white children don't have traditional Anglo 485 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: American names. Apple. I'm just saying it's a pretty overt 486 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: example of racism. Unusual names for black folks are punchlines. 487 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: Unusual names for white folks could easily be a politician. Yeah, 488 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: a lot of our politicians, if you think about it, 489 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: have very non traditional names, right, And then you also 490 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: have to look and just being in the criminal system. 491 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: The racist idea behind the name is absolutely a big 492 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: part of the judicial system, and I've seen it and 493 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: I can attest to it, and it's horrible, and even 494 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: just having to sit and review kids people who automatically 495 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: assume things with the name and with the conversation why 496 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: the parents do this to them, but just all of that, 497 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: it does, and it's unfortunate that these these may be 498 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: historical names for them, or generational names or something that 499 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: they want to do a variation like many white entertainers 500 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: do today, they get dinged for and it is unfortunate 501 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: that it is as a part that we have to 502 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: look at and consider why it happens. Yeah, and I 503 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: would love to come back in a future episode and 504 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: bring some people on who can talk more about this. UM. 505 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: On a sort of related note, I did want to 506 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: briefly touch on the process of anglicizing names, which canon 507 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: has been very harmful, a violent, active erasure of other cultures, 508 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: for example Christian names for Native Americans and African slaves. 509 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: And when I was in China, UM a lot of 510 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: students would introduce themselves with their Chinese name and their 511 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: English name, and they would tell me sometimes they would 512 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: forget their English name. They wouldn't respond to it because 513 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: some sometimes they said they would change like depending um 514 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: until it was called, like they had to hear it 515 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: called a few times. And these English names are frequently 516 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: chosen by teachers, particularly English teachers in China. And I 517 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: was thinking about this, and I suppose I did have 518 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: a French name, a Spanish name, German name, aman her 519 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: name when I took the classes, but they were only 520 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: used in class, not outside of it. Of Chinese students 521 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: keep their English name when enrolling in schools outside of China. 522 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: I had a good friend from Taiwan in high school, 523 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: and I was offensively ignorant of the fact that she 524 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: had a Cantonese name and an English name, which she 525 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: later changed her English name because she didn't feel any 526 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: connection to it. Um. A lot of Chinese given names 527 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: are our words. I believe my students gave me one, 528 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: and I hope they weren't just lying to me, but 529 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: I believe it meant summer rain. I say, this is 530 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: like a Cantonese or Mandin tattoo, you know, but in 531 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: the US that's less common. Giving these kind of like 532 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: word names um and can lead to judgment. Also, English 533 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: naming conventions are confusing. They're confusing. Some words are names 534 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: and some art um it's it's come up in our politics. 535 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: Bill suggested that Chinese Americans adopt English names like Bill 536 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: have come up um because they're they're too confusing. Also 537 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: worth pointing out the English name typically means that white name. 538 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: But I did want to say some people when I 539 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: was researching this, um don't think it's a big deal, 540 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: or they don't. They kind of like it, some people don't. 541 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: Is it like I said for me when I changed 542 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: my name, where my name was changed, Um, it was 543 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: about fitting in. Of course, I go back as an 544 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: adult looking back on the shame fact that I'm trying 545 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: to be white. Yeah, so it's kind of that both 546 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: of trying to figure out who you are, trying to 547 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: fit in. So if you're accepted into a community, it 548 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: feels nice. But also sometimes it's just really difficult to 549 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: try to tell everyone how to pronounce your name. Yeah, 550 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: really frustrating. So it's just like just just call me, 551 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: just tell me Mary, just call me Jane Doe. I 552 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: don't care whatever it is. Well, and I was reading 553 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: about why this is and essentially it's because business, right. UM. 554 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: I would love to talk about that more too. And 555 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: I also would love to come back and talk about 556 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: naming in Native American communities because something else I was 557 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: thinking about in this episode is when I worked in 558 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: on Australia for a while and I worked with Indigenous 559 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: communities in Australia and I got to see a couple 560 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: of their naming ceremonies and they also gave me a name, 561 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: which I also know I know what that meant because 562 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: I was I was there to like document help document 563 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: their language. UM, but it did feel like they chose 564 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: it for me, and it felt really powerful and like 565 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: this is how they see you, and this is how 566 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: you're going to fit into this community. And and just 567 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: given the opportunity to witness that. So, UM, there's a 568 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: lot to talk about with names. What's it a name? 569 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: What's in the name? A lot? Apparently? A lot, a 570 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: lot apparently. And we would love to hear from you listeners, 571 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: any thoughts you have on on names, and um, any 572 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: experiences you have with names, If you've got any interesting 573 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: names in your life, you can email us. That's stuff 574 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: Media Mom stuff At iHeart media dot com. You can 575 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on 576 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always 577 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: to our super producer nickname withheld b b B. Thank you, 578 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told 579 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: You the prediction of Iheartradios how stuff works. For more 580 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the ihar radio app, 581 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, 582 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna talk to you. Hey, let's put some things. 583 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: I haven't slept in three four days and he's over. 584 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: You're getting done. Hey, Hey, Andrew, come on and sing 585 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: with all. Okay, I'm on my own