WEBVTT - Dan Mathews 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:16.240 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. PETER, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.759 or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, has made 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:24.480 headlines for decades with their aggressive activism, fighting to put 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.800 an end to the cruel and inhumane treatment of animals 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:32.160 in circuses, zoos, laboratories, as well as in the fashion 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.680 and factory farm industries. Pet has over three million members 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.080 and supporters, making them one of the largest animal rights 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:44.360 organizations in the world. Recently, Peter has been working to 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.040 defeat the so called ag GAG laws. These laws make 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.440 it illegal to record undercover videos in factory farms. Ag 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.800 GAG laws have been defeated in thirteen states, but eight 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.600 states already have these anti whistleblower laws on their books. 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.840 Undercover video is one of Peter's primary weapons, but they 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.920 employ other tactics as well, many of which have been 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.440 dreamt up by my guests today, Dan Matthews, who has 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.120 been with the organization for nearly three decades. In the 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.680 nineteen eighties, Matthews enlisted the stars of the television show 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.399 The Golden Girls be Arthur Rue, McClanahan and Betty White, 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.640 to take a stand on wearing fur cruelty is not fashionable. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:32.279 Don't wear fur? Support the people who fight for animal rights. Matthews, 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.440 now one of Peter's senior vice presidents, went on to 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.880 create the rather Go Naked than Wear Fur campaign, which 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:43.200 featured people, most notably celebrities, shedding their clothes and protests 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.640 of those who sell or wear fur. You know, I'm 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.040 from the MTV generation and Pete is all about the 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.800 case work, going undercover in laboratories and slaughterhouses and circuses 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.080 and busting places that are run afoul of the law. 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.720 And there's a lot of that. But um, I'm from 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.000 the generation that knows that a lot of people are 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.200 even watching the news anymore. That it was cabled and 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.880 there was the Internet, there's so much competition for people. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.040 Started with Peter whim and what was it like that 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.200 there was ten of us working out of a house 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.720 in suburban Maryland outside of d c UM. I was 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:18.200 in the basement answering from Rockville with silver Spring from 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.680 rock from about twenty minutes. Yes, exactly. Our first case 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.960 where we busted an animal experimenter who was cutting the 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.680 limbs and the nerves of primates and then using a 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:31.880 cigarette lighter and a pair of Plyers to try to 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.080 get the dead nerves to spring back to life. It 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.280 was just the most ungodly torture chamber. And that was 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.120 Peter's first big case fromt Page the Washington Post. The 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.640 guy got his grant revoked and it's set the stage 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.480 for us doing so many more cases inside laboratory. That 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.560 really made Peter's reputation on on a national and international level. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.880 What the people referred to was the Silver Spring Monkeys case. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.680 That's exactly right. That's what Peter is all about. We 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.799 are here to show you things you really don't want 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.440 to see. You believe the Yeah, that's why you're there, 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.960 That's why. That's why we exist. We are not. I mean, 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.280 it's fantastic that we now have three million members and 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.960 Peter India and Peter Europe and Peter Australia. It's great. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.440 We never set off to be a large organization. We 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.000 set off to be the cutting edge organization who just 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.040 wanted to bring the facts to people and aside from 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.240 the philosophical idea, just see what it's like for animals 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.600 in the circus, or in the laboratory or in the slaughterhouse. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.880 And we do that primarily through our undercover investigations, but 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.840 to supplement the investigations to reach the masses. We do 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.640 not live in intellectual times. We live, you know, in 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.760 very very um imbecilic times. And in a lot of ways, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:39.800 how does that affect the work that you do? It 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.680 affects the work we do because if we you know, 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.360 say I go and meet with uh Nightline or and 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:47.360 they say, oh, this footage is too upsetting, we know 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:49.560 our viewers are going to change the channel and put 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.080 on in e true Hollywood story. So sorry, but we're 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.240 not going to break your cruelty case. I come back 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.440 to them and say, okay, great, well, Pamela Anderson is 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.280 doing a photo shoot for our rather go naked? Then 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.360 where for at our you in? And they line up? 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:03.640 So my job you had to play their game to 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.560 a degree. I would market. I would love to rewrite 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:08.280 the rules so that the media was a little bit 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.560 more intelligent. And I gotta tell you, for all the 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.200 sensational things involving celebrities or sex that we do, there 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.400 are fifteen pitches we did that died because they were 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.120 too serious. So we are just wasn't it always that way? 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.920 You think it's getting worse over time? Reduce feel it's worse. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.760 There were two things that happened. One is with the 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.320 advent of cable in in the mean, cable has been 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.960 around since the eighties, but it really really flourished in 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.280 the early nineties and people had a lot more choices 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.279 of what to watch. And I remember I had a 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.880 meeting at ABC News with the producer who told me, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.799 we run your cases before, but now the ratings system 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.559 is such that we know not just what shows people 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.480 are watching, but the precise moment they changed the channel 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.440 and we ran a graphic story about rodeos and how 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.200 the groins get pinched on on the animals, and we 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.960 lost a quarter of our viewers that when that footage 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:01.680 came on. So I'm afraid we're not going to be 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.359 talking any more serious cases with you. So that's when 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.320 they started doing hour long specials on Whitney Houston's drug 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.480 problem and things like that. You know, we My degree 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.880 is in history and American University and Washington went to 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.919 study history. And then when you finished the AU, what 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.000 did you do well? My last year at AU, I 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.160 had an animal rights group on on campus. We were 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.240 able to convince the university to stop the poisoning of 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.960 pigeons and to switch to netting, which was much more effective. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.839 We showed your introduction to animals. Actually, my introduction to 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.279 animal rights was in high school. That silver spring monkeys 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:40.680 case that Peter launched was the laboratory run by Dr 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.200 Edward Taube. And in the wake of that bust, Edward 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.920 Taube was being honored as the Psychologist of the Year 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.440 at the Anaheim Convention Center outside of l a UH. 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:52.160 And I was right near where I lived, and so 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.040 my punk rock friends and I went and participated in 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.320 the protest. And that was the first time. It was 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.680 Peter's first l A protest. And so I was I 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:03.159 think sixteen and so and so you're in high school 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.279 and you go to this protest. Yeah, my friend's mother 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.320 heard about it, and so we thought, oh god, you know, 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.960 we're from the punk generation. Protest was six How was 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:16.840 your first exposure? Yeah, yeah, and I so protest which 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.880 you became known for. What's your first exposure? It was? 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.279 It became very good at protests eventually, correct eventually, Yes, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.520 I just I had a little bit of disdain because 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.400 I felt like, um, you know, there's always you've got 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.920 to have new, fresh ways to affect change and protests 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:32.560 is one way, and we do that a lot, but 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.920 there's a lot of other ways ways of of luring people, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.280 and especially when it comes to habits. I mean, animal 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.760 rights issues are about things, the things people eat and 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.040 what they wear and the products they use. It's much 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.160 more of a social issue than a political issue. So 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.719 we're gonna get to that because obviously there are a 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.120 few subjects which are as complex as this. I mean 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:52.880 in me, even in my own life. I mean, you know, 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.359 you get into a car and a car was filled 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.120 with leather products, and there are many many people who 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.480 will say you can get a call of interior, but 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.960 not maybe the dashboard, or there's gonna be some animal 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.919 hide in that car somewhere. It's almost unavoidable. It's you know, 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.400 it's the sort of issue that we have. You know, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.040 in Virginia where I live, the roads were paved by slaves. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.160 Does that mean you don't drive on them? The just 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.320 you can't rewrite history. We just try to get people 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.600 to look in the future and leave bad habits behind 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.520 one by one or is there a lynchpin you think 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:22.680 to wall of this? Meaning? There are people who I 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.679 talk to who will say I could give up eating meat, 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.680 but I couldn't give a beating poultry. I could give 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:31.760 a beating meat and poultry, but I'll still eat fish. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.920 I'm gonna wear leather shoes, I'm gonna carry leather bags, 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:36.880 We're gonna carry leather walllets, but I'm not going to 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.800 go and buy a conspicuously leather founded garment. There are 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:43.600 people for whom they live their life, and in terms 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.760 of practicality, there are gradations of their commitment to animal rights. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.040 There are people I know who are full blown, you know, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.240 like yourself. They've got the pleather and the vinyl and 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.280 the wallets and the shoes and the belts and everything 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.040 totally vegan and so forth. But that takes time, and 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:01.040 that's a commitment and traveling and making sure that you 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.320 have access to your whole wheat bread and sprouts and 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.840 avocado sandwich the airport. No. No, but you're right, it's 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.840 not that difficult, but people do perceive that it is difficult. Yeah, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.040 I mean, I think it's human nature for us to 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.160 instantly recognize our differences with our with each other, and 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:18.960 that's why we've got so much violence in the world 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.240 and so much hostility. I think the better side of 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.160 human nature is to try to recognize what you have 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.160 in common with somebody and then let it drive from that. 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.400 That's why I work with Republican meat eaters like Mary Madeline, 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.120 who helps lead our efforts against the agg gag bills 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:34.480 or so. You have people, for example, who are not 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.719 necessary strict vegetarians, but there's components of the animal rights 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.520 message that they embrace gag exactly anti zusan circus rodeo 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.000 exactly exactly right. So I think it's a matter of 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.760 identifying which issue, because there are certainly a lot of them. 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:48.720 You know, some people get involved on one issue and 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.760 then they evolve and become vegetarian or vegan, or you know, 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.120 there's people like be Arthur and the Golden Girls who 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.920 were among our first supporters back in the eighties, and 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.320 they weren't vegetarian, but they hated for and they hated 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.120 animal testing, and they helped us get the mink subsidies 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.160 yanked from the federal crash test dogs. I remember all 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.320 those things from the early days, which was you know, 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.800 crash test dogs and pigs. They'd say that this makeup 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.079 company wanted to be able to walk into a courtroom 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.200 and they wanted to be able to PLoP down thick 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.960 reams of documentation where they said, our mascara didn't cause 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:27.360 the problem with this woman's eyesight. We blinded fourteen thousand 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.840 rabbits in order to prove that this stuff has been tested. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.440 So that was part of Peter's first achievement in the eighties, 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.160 as we convinced Avon, Revlon, s day Lauder so many 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.560 other companies to stop testing yea and that you know, 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.199 we've we've changed that today. It remains today. It's been 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.120 threatened in the last few years by China because China 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.600 has these regulations that require cosmetics and products to be 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.920 tested on animals. It's the old regulations that the Europe, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.560 the EU and the U S used to have. So 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.000 we went to China knowing that you can't really protest. 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.560 They're like, you can here. We went there and said, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.360 all right, the EU doesn't use animal testing anymore, and 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.719 in fact it's illegal to test on animals for cosmetics 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.120 in Europe. The US has largely abandoned it. Please revise 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.840 your regulations for China, and the Chinese officials, the equivalent 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:12.920 of the f d A told us. We don't want 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:14.360 to hear from Peter, and we don't want to hear 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.800 from any one of the companies. But if you go 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.360 away and gather up all the scientists who change their 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.439 regulations there, and gather up all the companies and come 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.080 back to us as a board, as a body, then 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.000 we will listen. So Peter spent over a hundred thousand 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.400 dollars establishing this consortia and getting all these scientists and 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.040 companies together. We went back to Beijing in December, presented 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:40.640 them the findings, and to our thrilled amazement, Chinese officials 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.040 said that that made total scientific sense. They've already initiated 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.920 research projects at four Chinese universities to fine tune the 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.560 non animal tests for China, and they say that within 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.040 five years there won't be product testing in China as well. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.280 So it just shows the kind of different hats Peter 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.679 wears to get things accomplished, But there are great accomplishments 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.600 of his, whether it's involved with the crash testing. That 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.520 was a fun one, the crash test campaign. We got 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.600 to disrupt the GM float into Rose Parade dressed as 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.000 rabbits and rats. You did, yes, When was that? What 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.079 he was at and that was back in the mid nineties. UM, 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.040 we did a whole lot of things to get their attention. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.560 One of the final things was GM wanted to sponsor 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.480 Paul McCartney's US tour, and Paul me being a PETA member, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.400 brought their offer to us and we said you should 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.400 probably refuse and tell them why, and he did, and 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:32.960 then he gave us a free ad and the tour 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.880 program about their animal tests, and that made such huge 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.079 news that they finally threw in the town. After having 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.000 killed twenty animals and crash tests, they changed their policy 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.760 and now they haven't killed any since. No major US 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.880 auto manufactured test computer models and stuff. But there are 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.719 those people who find that the methods you've used over 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:57.120 the years have been very very u unfair, puerile, asinine, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.000 that you've been attacked, as you know, obviously they've really 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.079 really hit you pretty hard with some of the things, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.280 and and of course the most well known examples of 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.680 that are, you know, flinging buckets of blood on fashion 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.920 models and the edit tricks is of magazines and so 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.960 forth on the streets of New York. What was the 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.800 thinking behind that? Then? I mean, I I'm a supporter 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.440 of Peter, and I'm a supporter of nearly all of 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.959 what they do. But at that time when you felt 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.600 that you had to have that guerrilla style, who was 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.920 the producer of those events and the author of that 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:29.839 script was that you as well? Well? Who was the 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.680 first person to Peter that said let's throw animal blood 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.160 on animal winter? Nobody ever threw animal blood. I think 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.360 people used to spray paint coats on the subways, and 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.800 whether they were Peter members or not, I have no idea. 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.920 I carry stickers that say I'm an asshole I wear 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.160 for and I very subtly put them on people. I 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.200 stickered Cindy Adams at a party once you did. I did, 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.040 but I love her so much and I think she's 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:54.959 so funny that I saw it in the next party 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.400 and I said, Cindy, I gotta confess, I don't want 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.200 to put the asshole stick on you, but I love 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.480 your column. And she thought it was so funny that 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.160 she wrote a column about that. You won her over. 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.480 We have to use aggressive tactics, I think the way 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.200 you need to still do. Of course we do. For example, 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.600 what's the current aggressive tactic here? The first I'd like 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.720 to say that we are a charity. We don't have 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.720 the ad budget, we don't have the power that any 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.000 one of the hundreds of targets that we have. We 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.360 are tiny little flea compared to a guerrilla. That's what 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.720 we're doing and as a charity trying to seek this change. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:32.400 Unless we're willing to be as aggressive as our adversaries 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.240 are and the way they market themselves as industries, we 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.120 would be doomed to fail. Peters aggressive tactics. Which it's 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:40.880 just like when there's an aggressive woman, to call her 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.320 a bit, when there's an aggressive charity, they call him terrorists. Well, um, 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.600 we we do what we you know, we're not terrorists. 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:48.559 We we abide by the law. We do things that 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.520 are aggressive. I had to um, you know, but I 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.160 want to just do just for argument's sake, is spray 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.080 painting people on subways, worrying for coaches that abiding by 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.560 the law. No, it's not and that's never been a 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.559 part of our program. Nothing that Peter called for the No. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.240 But I think because Peter exists as the edgy group, 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.320 people just loop any activity in with us. The usual 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.880 suspects exactly get rounded up and we've you know, we 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.560 spent years trying to deny certain things, but in the end, 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.000 it's like, well, let people believe what they want. And 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.439 there's probably gonna be somebody out there who won't wear 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.480 her because she doesn't want to have a five thousand 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.840 dollar coat ruined by paint, and so maybe that's a 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.000 small victory. So to go back for a minute, Um, 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.160 you're in l A, you go to the tab protest. 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:30.880 When does Peter come into the picture of your life? Well, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:32.440 when I was at AU and we had our animal 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.880 rights group, um there was I knew that Peter was 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.280 down the street because I got to know them when 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.320 their first case broke. So they were on your radar 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.200 for a well, oh yeah, since they were founded. And 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.120 so I would go to the Peter headquarters to get 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.360 literature for our college group, and we did all these things. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.800 We showed slaughterhouse footage outside the school cafeteria at lunchtime, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.160 anything to ruin somebody's day. And uh, when I got 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.680 out of college, they just offered me a job as 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.120 the receptionist and I was so thrilled. I um college 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.200 degree and I landed a job making ten dollars a 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.600 year at an animal rights group. I fought Peter, Yes, 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:06.360 and what were some of the first things you worked 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.640 on when they were working on them? Um, we had 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.840 our first case about the undercover and the meat trade. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.640 How there's down cows, how animals who don't even have 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:17.760 the strength to watch the down cow. Where she was 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.440 an issue back then. Yeah, absolutely, that still continues today. 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.360 It continues today. And I remember that the people who 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.640 handle our fundraising for people who don't know what the 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.320 down care wish. She was described that, well, they don't 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.400 give cows much at a at a slaughter house, there 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.920 are so many cows who are so sick. They're pumped 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.400 full of drugs to ward off all the viruses. They 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.000 get in such clear overwhement, their overweight, their bedraggled, they're 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.760 over there fed so fast so that they get fat 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.120 or quicker. Uh, that they are just these miserable, uh 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.680 you know, genetically modified monsters by the time they go 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:53.160 to slaughter and some of them are two weeks to 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.640 actually walk up the ramp and they're dragged. Some of 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.480 them are dragged kicking and screaming literally or have pitchforks 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.720 that that dumped them on the slaughter lines around them 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.680 and dragged them back then. Uh. In fact, we got 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.760 a call from a slaughter house worker in Pennsylvania at 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.120 the Mopac Hatfield Plants, and he called to say that 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.160 his job was to work right near the kill floor. 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.000 His job was to cut off the hoofs and lips 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.880 of cows so that their skin could be peeled back 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.280 for leather. The cows were arriving on a conveyor belt 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.280 hoisted up by a hoof to this man, and they 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.920 were supposed to already be unconscious through a captive bolt 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.880 in their head, through their throat being split, and because 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:35.600 of the quota, because of the system, because of poorly trained, 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.800 illegally immigrant workers, and faulty machinery, the cows were still 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.360 fully conscious when they came around to him, and he 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.760 said he would have to chop off one hoof while 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:46.640 the other hoof came around and kicked him in the head. 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.480 And he complained to the on site plant inspector about this, 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.320 and he was told to get back to work because 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.160 they had a quota to keep. So this poor literate, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.520 toothless guy called Peter and said, Uh, they're not listening. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.800 I'm not a vegetarian, I'm all as much for my 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.320 own safety as for the animal cruelty, but can you 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.280 get in here and document this so and bring it 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.800 to the state Department. We went up. I went up 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:13.159 with two Peter investigators, met with him. It was thrilling. 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:14.720 It happened to be on my birthday, and I remember 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.359 it was the most exciting birthday I ever had, going 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.240 to meet in a motel room, uh, surreptitiously with this 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.399 guy who remains in my heart one of the biggest 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.879 heroes I've ever seen. He vouched for these two girls 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.600 to come in. They had cameras hidden in their bags. 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.840 As far as the slaughterhouse knew, they were just friends 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:33.920 of his. Uh. He was able to tell them where 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.240 to stand to show what was happening. They were able 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.520 to do it over the course of a few days, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.400 to show that it was routine problems, not a one 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.280 off problem that wasn't Yes, and the and the evidence 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.040 they captured on them was in controvertial. It was incontrovertible. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.119 And I personally took it to the State Department of 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.680 Agriculture and in Harrisburg and lodge a formal complaint with 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.600 the State Department of Agriculture, who apologized for the plant. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.159 They aired the footage the week that the World Series 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.040 was on, So I remember the watching from the motel 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.080 and it was promos for the game and then teasers 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:08.920 for this atrocious slaughterhouse case that Peter was launching. And 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.040 that is why because of that, that is one of 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.840 the first cases that led to the agg gag bills. 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.480 Which have they started trying to do that several years? 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.159 Was that this was in the early nineties, so it 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:24.200 was that long ago, was twenty years ago that industry 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.439 began to panic about this this captured video, and you 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.119 began to have the earliest forms of ag gag proposals. 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.879 That's right. What did proponents of agg gag or in 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:39.720 their minds opponents of of this captured video? What did 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.399 they say back then was the reason they had to 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.760 have these egg gag bills? And how are the the 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.520 agg gag bills are seeing no different than twenty years ago? Well, 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.440 that was one of the first cases and the meat 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.679 industry was very embarrassed by it. There was obviously no 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.600 refuting the evidence. Plus, we had this guy who worked 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.760 there who went on camera in silhouette, but it was 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.000 confirmed that he was a worker there. Exposing the cruel 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.480 thing and exposing what the conditions were, so there was 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.400 no way they could refute it. After that case, there 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.360 were countless others where we got into slaughter houses in Iowa, 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:13.480 in in Texas, a huge horse ranch in Texas, other 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.320 places in several states. UM And we were always very careful. 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.159 We only would pursue cases where you were allowed to 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.200 film legally. Some states you can't film without somebody's permission, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.800 so we only chose cases where we could legally film 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.119 these places so we didn't have unnecessary legal challenges from 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.560 the facility. Peter has a very uh tight legal department, 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.080 so when we get in trouble, we know exactly what 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.640 kind of trouble we're getting into, and we usually avoided 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.680 at all costs uh and will challenge laws. But and 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.320 with these investigations, they are always very hand picked. As 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.560 for the jurisdiction. So where you see the processing of animals, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.800 be for lamb or any kind of poetry and so forth, 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:59.280 for food. You talk primarily about um cruelty, and you 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.040