1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. PETER, 2 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, has made 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: headlines for decades with their aggressive activism, fighting to put 4 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: an end to the cruel and inhumane treatment of animals 5 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: in circuses, zoos, laboratories, as well as in the fashion 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: and factory farm industries. Pet has over three million members 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: and supporters, making them one of the largest animal rights 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: organizations in the world. Recently, Peter has been working to 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: defeat the so called ag GAG laws. These laws make 10 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: it illegal to record undercover videos in factory farms. Ag 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: GAG laws have been defeated in thirteen states, but eight 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: states already have these anti whistleblower laws on their books. 13 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: Undercover video is one of Peter's primary weapons, but they 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: employ other tactics as well, many of which have been 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: dreamt up by my guests today, Dan Matthews, who has 16 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: been with the organization for nearly three decades. In the 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, Matthews enlisted the stars of the television show 18 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: The Golden Girls be Arthur Rue, McClanahan and Betty White, 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: to take a stand on wearing fur cruelty is not fashionable. 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 1: Don't wear fur? Support the people who fight for animal rights. Matthews, 21 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: now one of Peter's senior vice presidents, went on to 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: create the rather Go Naked than Wear Fur campaign, which 23 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: featured people, most notably celebrities, shedding their clothes and protests 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: of those who sell or wear fur. You know, I'm 25 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: from the MTV generation and Pete is all about the 26 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: case work, going undercover in laboratories and slaughterhouses and circuses 27 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: and busting places that are run afoul of the law. 28 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of that. But um, I'm from 29 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: the generation that knows that a lot of people are 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: even watching the news anymore. That it was cabled and 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: there was the Internet, there's so much competition for people. 32 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: Started with Peter whim and what was it like that 33 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: there was ten of us working out of a house 34 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: in suburban Maryland outside of d c UM. I was 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: in the basement answering from Rockville with silver Spring from 36 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: rock from about twenty minutes. Yes, exactly. Our first case 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: where we busted an animal experimenter who was cutting the 38 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: limbs and the nerves of primates and then using a 39 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: cigarette lighter and a pair of Plyers to try to 40 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: get the dead nerves to spring back to life. It 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: was just the most ungodly torture chamber. And that was 42 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: Peter's first big case fromt Page the Washington Post. The 43 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: guy got his grant revoked and it's set the stage 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: for us doing so many more cases inside laboratory. That 45 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: really made Peter's reputation on on a national and international level. 46 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: What the people referred to was the Silver Spring Monkeys case. 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. That's what Peter is all about. We 48 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: are here to show you things you really don't want 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: to see. You believe the Yeah, that's why you're there, 50 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: That's why. That's why we exist. We are not. I mean, 51 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: it's fantastic that we now have three million members and 52 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: Peter India and Peter Europe and Peter Australia. It's great. 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: We never set off to be a large organization. We 54 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: set off to be the cutting edge organization who just 55 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: wanted to bring the facts to people and aside from 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: the philosophical idea, just see what it's like for animals 57 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: in the circus, or in the laboratory or in the slaughterhouse. 58 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: And we do that primarily through our undercover investigations, but 59 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: to supplement the investigations to reach the masses. We do 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: not live in intellectual times. We live, you know, in 61 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: very very um imbecilic times. And in a lot of ways, 62 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: how does that affect the work that you do? It 63 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: affects the work we do because if we you know, 64 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: say I go and meet with uh Nightline or and 65 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: they say, oh, this footage is too upsetting, we know 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: our viewers are going to change the channel and put 67 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: on in e true Hollywood story. So sorry, but we're 68 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: not going to break your cruelty case. I come back 69 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: to them and say, okay, great, well, Pamela Anderson is 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: doing a photo shoot for our rather go naked? Then 71 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: where for at our you in? And they line up? 72 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: So my job you had to play their game to 73 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: a degree. I would market. I would love to rewrite 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: the rules so that the media was a little bit 75 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: more intelligent. And I gotta tell you, for all the 76 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: sensational things involving celebrities or sex that we do, there 77 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: are fifteen pitches we did that died because they were 78 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: too serious. So we are just wasn't it always that way? 79 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: You think it's getting worse over time? Reduce feel it's worse. 80 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: There were two things that happened. One is with the 81 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: advent of cable in in the mean, cable has been 82 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: around since the eighties, but it really really flourished in 83 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: the early nineties and people had a lot more choices 84 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: of what to watch. And I remember I had a 85 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: meeting at ABC News with the producer who told me, 86 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: we run your cases before, but now the ratings system 87 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,559 Speaker 1: is such that we know not just what shows people 88 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: are watching, but the precise moment they changed the channel 89 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: and we ran a graphic story about rodeos and how 90 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: the groins get pinched on on the animals, and we 91 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: lost a quarter of our viewers that when that footage 92 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: came on. So I'm afraid we're not going to be 93 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: talking any more serious cases with you. So that's when 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: they started doing hour long specials on Whitney Houston's drug 95 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: problem and things like that. You know, we My degree 96 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: is in history and American University and Washington went to 97 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: study history. And then when you finished the AU, what 98 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: did you do well? My last year at AU, I 99 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: had an animal rights group on on campus. We were 100 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: able to convince the university to stop the poisoning of 101 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: pigeons and to switch to netting, which was much more effective. 102 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: We showed your introduction to animals. Actually, my introduction to 103 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: animal rights was in high school. That silver spring monkeys 104 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: case that Peter launched was the laboratory run by Dr 105 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: Edward Taube. And in the wake of that bust, Edward 106 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: Taube was being honored as the Psychologist of the Year 107 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: at the Anaheim Convention Center outside of l a UH. 108 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: And I was right near where I lived, and so 109 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: my punk rock friends and I went and participated in 110 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: the protest. And that was the first time. It was 111 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: Peter's first l A protest. And so I was I 112 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: think sixteen and so and so you're in high school 113 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: and you go to this protest. Yeah, my friend's mother 114 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: heard about it, and so we thought, oh god, you know, 115 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: we're from the punk generation. Protest was six How was 116 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: your first exposure? Yeah, yeah, and I so protest which 117 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: you became known for. What's your first exposure? It was? 118 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: It became very good at protests eventually, correct eventually, Yes, 119 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: I just I had a little bit of disdain because 120 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: I felt like, um, you know, there's always you've got 121 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: to have new, fresh ways to affect change and protests 122 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: is one way, and we do that a lot, but 123 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot of other ways ways of of luring people, 124 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: and especially when it comes to habits. I mean, animal 125 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: rights issues are about things, the things people eat and 126 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: what they wear and the products they use. It's much 127 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: more of a social issue than a political issue. So 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna get to that because obviously there are a 129 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: few subjects which are as complex as this. I mean 130 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: in me, even in my own life. I mean, you know, 131 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: you get into a car and a car was filled 132 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: with leather products, and there are many many people who 133 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: will say you can get a call of interior, but 134 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: not maybe the dashboard, or there's gonna be some animal 135 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: hide in that car somewhere. It's almost unavoidable. It's you know, 136 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: it's the sort of issue that we have. You know, 137 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: in Virginia where I live, the roads were paved by slaves. 138 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: Does that mean you don't drive on them? The just 139 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: you can't rewrite history. We just try to get people 140 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: to look in the future and leave bad habits behind 141 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: one by one or is there a lynchpin you think 142 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: to wall of this? Meaning? There are people who I 143 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,679 Speaker 1: talk to who will say I could give up eating meat, 144 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: but I couldn't give a beating poultry. I could give 145 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: a beating meat and poultry, but I'll still eat fish. 146 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna wear leather shoes, I'm gonna carry leather bags, 147 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna carry leather walllets, but I'm not going to 148 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: go and buy a conspicuously leather founded garment. There are 149 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: people for whom they live their life, and in terms 150 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: of practicality, there are gradations of their commitment to animal rights. 151 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: There are people I know who are full blown, you know, 152 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: like yourself. They've got the pleather and the vinyl and 153 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: the wallets and the shoes and the belts and everything 154 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: totally vegan and so forth. But that takes time, and 155 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: that's a commitment and traveling and making sure that you 156 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: have access to your whole wheat bread and sprouts and 157 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: avocado sandwich the airport. No. No, but you're right, it's 158 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: not that difficult, but people do perceive that it is difficult. Yeah, 159 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's human nature for us to 160 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: instantly recognize our differences with our with each other, and 161 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: that's why we've got so much violence in the world 162 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: and so much hostility. I think the better side of 163 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: human nature is to try to recognize what you have 164 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: in common with somebody and then let it drive from that. 165 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: That's why I work with Republican meat eaters like Mary Madeline, 166 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: who helps lead our efforts against the agg gag bills 167 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: or so. You have people, for example, who are not 168 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: necessary strict vegetarians, but there's components of the animal rights 169 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: message that they embrace gag exactly anti zusan circus rodeo 170 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: exactly exactly right. So I think it's a matter of 171 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: identifying which issue, because there are certainly a lot of them. 172 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: You know, some people get involved on one issue and 173 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: then they evolve and become vegetarian or vegan, or you know, 174 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: there's people like be Arthur and the Golden Girls who 175 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: were among our first supporters back in the eighties, and 176 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: they weren't vegetarian, but they hated for and they hated 177 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: animal testing, and they helped us get the mink subsidies 178 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: yanked from the federal crash test dogs. I remember all 179 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: those things from the early days, which was you know, 180 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: crash test dogs and pigs. They'd say that this makeup 181 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: company wanted to be able to walk into a courtroom 182 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: and they wanted to be able to PLoP down thick 183 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: reams of documentation where they said, our mascara didn't cause 184 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: the problem with this woman's eyesight. We blinded fourteen thousand 185 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: rabbits in order to prove that this stuff has been tested. 186 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: So that was part of Peter's first achievement in the eighties, 187 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: as we convinced Avon, Revlon, s day Lauder so many 188 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: other companies to stop testing yea and that you know, 189 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: we've we've changed that today. It remains today. It's been 190 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: threatened in the last few years by China because China 191 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: has these regulations that require cosmetics and products to be 192 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: tested on animals. It's the old regulations that the Europe, 193 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: the EU and the U S used to have. So 194 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: we went to China knowing that you can't really protest. 195 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: They're like, you can here. We went there and said, 196 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: all right, the EU doesn't use animal testing anymore, and 197 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: in fact it's illegal to test on animals for cosmetics 198 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: in Europe. The US has largely abandoned it. Please revise 199 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: your regulations for China, and the Chinese officials, the equivalent 200 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: of the f d A told us. We don't want 201 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: to hear from Peter, and we don't want to hear 202 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: from any one of the companies. But if you go 203 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: away and gather up all the scientists who change their 204 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: regulations there, and gather up all the companies and come 205 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: back to us as a board, as a body, then 206 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: we will listen. So Peter spent over a hundred thousand 207 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: dollars establishing this consortia and getting all these scientists and 208 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: companies together. We went back to Beijing in December, presented 209 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: them the findings, and to our thrilled amazement, Chinese officials 210 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: said that that made total scientific sense. They've already initiated 211 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: research projects at four Chinese universities to fine tune the 212 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: non animal tests for China, and they say that within 213 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: five years there won't be product testing in China as well. 214 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: So it just shows the kind of different hats Peter 215 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: wears to get things accomplished, But there are great accomplishments 216 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: of his, whether it's involved with the crash testing. That 217 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: was a fun one, the crash test campaign. We got 218 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: to disrupt the GM float into Rose Parade dressed as 219 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: rabbits and rats. You did, yes, When was that? What 220 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: he was at and that was back in the mid nineties. UM, 221 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: we did a whole lot of things to get their attention. 222 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: One of the final things was GM wanted to sponsor 223 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney's US tour, and Paul me being a PETA member, 224 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: brought their offer to us and we said you should 225 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: probably refuse and tell them why, and he did, and 226 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: then he gave us a free ad and the tour 227 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: program about their animal tests, and that made such huge 228 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: news that they finally threw in the town. After having 229 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: killed twenty animals and crash tests, they changed their policy 230 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: and now they haven't killed any since. No major US 231 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: auto manufactured test computer models and stuff. But there are 232 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: those people who find that the methods you've used over 233 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: the years have been very very u unfair, puerile, asinine, 234 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: that you've been attacked, as you know, obviously they've really 235 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: really hit you pretty hard with some of the things, 236 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: and and of course the most well known examples of 237 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: that are, you know, flinging buckets of blood on fashion 238 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: models and the edit tricks is of magazines and so 239 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: forth on the streets of New York. What was the 240 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: thinking behind that? Then? I mean, I I'm a supporter 241 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: of Peter, and I'm a supporter of nearly all of 242 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: what they do. But at that time when you felt 243 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: that you had to have that guerrilla style, who was 244 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: the producer of those events and the author of that 245 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: script was that you as well? Well? Who was the 246 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: first person to Peter that said let's throw animal blood 247 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: on animal winter? Nobody ever threw animal blood. I think 248 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: people used to spray paint coats on the subways, and 249 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: whether they were Peter members or not, I have no idea. 250 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: I carry stickers that say I'm an asshole I wear 251 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: for and I very subtly put them on people. I 252 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: stickered Cindy Adams at a party once you did. I did, 253 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: but I love her so much and I think she's 254 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: so funny that I saw it in the next party 255 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: and I said, Cindy, I gotta confess, I don't want 256 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: to put the asshole stick on you, but I love 257 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: your column. And she thought it was so funny that 258 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: she wrote a column about that. You won her over. 259 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: We have to use aggressive tactics, I think the way 260 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: you need to still do. Of course we do. For example, 261 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: what's the current aggressive tactic here? The first I'd like 262 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: to say that we are a charity. We don't have 263 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: the ad budget, we don't have the power that any 264 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: one of the hundreds of targets that we have. We 265 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: are tiny little flea compared to a guerrilla. That's what 266 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: we're doing and as a charity trying to seek this change. 267 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: Unless we're willing to be as aggressive as our adversaries 268 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: are and the way they market themselves as industries, we 269 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: would be doomed to fail. Peters aggressive tactics. Which it's 270 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: just like when there's an aggressive woman, to call her 271 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: a bit, when there's an aggressive charity, they call him terrorists. Well, um, 272 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: we we do what we you know, we're not terrorists. 273 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: We we abide by the law. We do things that 274 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: are aggressive. I had to um, you know, but I 275 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: want to just do just for argument's sake, is spray 276 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: painting people on subways, worrying for coaches that abiding by 277 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: the law. No, it's not and that's never been a 278 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: part of our program. Nothing that Peter called for the No. 279 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: But I think because Peter exists as the edgy group, 280 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: people just loop any activity in with us. The usual 281 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: suspects exactly get rounded up and we've you know, we 282 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: spent years trying to deny certain things, but in the end, 283 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: it's like, well, let people believe what they want. And 284 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: there's probably gonna be somebody out there who won't wear 285 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: her because she doesn't want to have a five thousand 286 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: dollar coat ruined by paint, and so maybe that's a 287 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: small victory. So to go back for a minute, Um, 288 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: you're in l A, you go to the tab protest. 289 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: When does Peter come into the picture of your life? Well, 290 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: when I was at AU and we had our animal 291 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: rights group, um there was I knew that Peter was 292 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: down the street because I got to know them when 293 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: their first case broke. So they were on your radar 294 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: for a well, oh yeah, since they were founded. And 295 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: so I would go to the Peter headquarters to get 296 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: literature for our college group, and we did all these things. 297 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: We showed slaughterhouse footage outside the school cafeteria at lunchtime, 298 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: anything to ruin somebody's day. And uh, when I got 299 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: out of college, they just offered me a job as 300 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: the receptionist and I was so thrilled. I um college 301 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: degree and I landed a job making ten dollars a 302 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: year at an animal rights group. I fought Peter, Yes, 303 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: and what were some of the first things you worked 304 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: on when they were working on them? Um, we had 305 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: our first case about the undercover and the meat trade. 306 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: How there's down cows, how animals who don't even have 307 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: the strength to watch the down cow. Where she was 308 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: an issue back then. Yeah, absolutely, that still continues today. 309 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: It continues today. And I remember that the people who 310 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: handle our fundraising for people who don't know what the 311 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: down care wish. She was described that, well, they don't 312 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: give cows much at a at a slaughter house, there 313 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: are so many cows who are so sick. They're pumped 314 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: full of drugs to ward off all the viruses. They 315 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: get in such clear overwhement, their overweight, their bedraggled, they're 316 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: over there fed so fast so that they get fat 317 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: or quicker. Uh, that they are just these miserable, uh 318 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, genetically modified monsters by the time they go 319 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: to slaughter and some of them are two weeks to 320 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: actually walk up the ramp and they're dragged. Some of 321 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: them are dragged kicking and screaming literally or have pitchforks 322 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: that that dumped them on the slaughter lines around them 323 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: and dragged them back then. Uh. In fact, we got 324 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: a call from a slaughter house worker in Pennsylvania at 325 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: the Mopac Hatfield Plants, and he called to say that 326 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: his job was to work right near the kill floor. 327 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: His job was to cut off the hoofs and lips 328 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: of cows so that their skin could be peeled back 329 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: for leather. The cows were arriving on a conveyor belt 330 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: hoisted up by a hoof to this man, and they 331 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: were supposed to already be unconscious through a captive bolt 332 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: in their head, through their throat being split, and because 333 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: of the quota, because of the system, because of poorly trained, 334 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: illegally immigrant workers, and faulty machinery, the cows were still 335 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: fully conscious when they came around to him, and he 336 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: said he would have to chop off one hoof while 337 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: the other hoof came around and kicked him in the head. 338 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: And he complained to the on site plant inspector about this, 339 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: and he was told to get back to work because 340 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: they had a quota to keep. So this poor literate, 341 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: toothless guy called Peter and said, Uh, they're not listening. 342 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: I'm not a vegetarian, I'm all as much for my 343 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: own safety as for the animal cruelty, but can you 344 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: get in here and document this so and bring it 345 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: to the state Department. We went up. I went up 346 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: with two Peter investigators, met with him. It was thrilling. 347 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: It happened to be on my birthday, and I remember 348 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: it was the most exciting birthday I ever had, going 349 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: to meet in a motel room, uh, surreptitiously with this 350 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: guy who remains in my heart one of the biggest 351 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: heroes I've ever seen. He vouched for these two girls 352 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: to come in. They had cameras hidden in their bags. 353 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: As far as the slaughterhouse knew, they were just friends 354 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: of his. Uh. He was able to tell them where 355 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: to stand to show what was happening. They were able 356 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: to do it over the course of a few days, 357 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: to show that it was routine problems, not a one 358 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: off problem that wasn't Yes, and the and the evidence 359 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: they captured on them was in controvertial. It was incontrovertible. 360 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: And I personally took it to the State Department of 361 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: Agriculture and in Harrisburg and lodge a formal complaint with 362 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: the State Department of Agriculture, who apologized for the plant. 363 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: They aired the footage the week that the World Series 364 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: was on, So I remember the watching from the motel 365 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: and it was promos for the game and then teasers 366 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: for this atrocious slaughterhouse case that Peter was launching. And 367 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: that is why because of that, that is one of 368 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: the first cases that led to the agg gag bills. 369 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: Which have they started trying to do that several years? 370 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: Was that this was in the early nineties, so it 371 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: was that long ago, was twenty years ago that industry 372 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 1: began to panic about this this captured video, and you 373 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: began to have the earliest forms of ag gag proposals. 374 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: That's right. What did proponents of agg gag or in 375 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: their minds opponents of of this captured video? What did 376 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: they say back then was the reason they had to 377 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: have these egg gag bills? And how are the the 378 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: agg gag bills are seeing no different than twenty years ago? Well, 379 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: that was one of the first cases and the meat 380 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: industry was very embarrassed by it. There was obviously no 381 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: refuting the evidence. Plus, we had this guy who worked 382 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: there who went on camera in silhouette, but it was 383 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: confirmed that he was a worker there. Exposing the cruel 384 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: thing and exposing what the conditions were, so there was 385 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: no way they could refute it. After that case, there 386 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: were countless others where we got into slaughter houses in Iowa, 387 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: in in Texas, a huge horse ranch in Texas, other 388 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: places in several states. UM And we were always very careful. 389 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: We only would pursue cases where you were allowed to 390 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: film legally. Some states you can't film without somebody's permission, 391 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: so we only chose cases where we could legally film 392 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: these places so we didn't have unnecessary legal challenges from 393 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: the facility. Peter has a very uh tight legal department, 394 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: so when we get in trouble, we know exactly what 395 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: kind of trouble we're getting into, and we usually avoided 396 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: at all costs uh and will challenge laws. But and 397 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: with these investigations, they are always very hand picked. As 398 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: for the jurisdiction. So where you see the processing of animals, 399 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: be for lamb or any kind of poetry and so forth, 400 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: for food. You talk primarily about um cruelty, and you 401 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: talk about conditions under which they're killed or not killed. 402 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: You talk about the whistleblower and the the the the 403 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: the what sounds almost like the skinning alive of this cattle. 404 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: At the same time, do you concern yourself with the 405 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: health conditions of the of the product itself, meaning the 406 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: f d A is charged with and Americans have been 407 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: told again and again and again they don't seem to 408 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: be overly concerned about it, unfortunate, but they've been told 409 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: again and again and again that the product itself has 410 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: been tainted. Enough here and they're big batches of meat 411 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: called back because of ecal right, and ecal I is 412 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: shipped and there are traces of feces and almost over 413 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: nine of meat paths according to according to the USD 414 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: is on finding. So the USD is owned finding. There's 415 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: there's there's can't be aborded, that cannot be avoided because 416 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: the animals are killed in such uh rapid fire conditions 417 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: and they they craft themselves during this later process. You can, 418 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: I mean, you can buy any package of meat and 419 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: at the time you'll find the coal. I you know 420 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: that any time you eat me, it's the poop poo platter. 421 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: When you say that the U s d A, which 422 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: I do not have a lot of faith, then no. 423 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: So if it's they're they're and if they're admitting it, 424 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: you know it. Hep me ten times worse than they're 425 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: saying when they're there, they're just asleep at the switch. 426 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: Most of the time. When you say that, the U. 427 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: S d A Is telling you that of the beef 428 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: is contemning with some some amount, it could be just 429 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: an insignificant amount per their measurements of the COOLi why 430 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: do you think more and more people still eat meat? 431 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: So what is your work taught you about Americans in 432 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: their diet of beef consumption. People want a dollar value meal. 433 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: People are slaves to their habits, and these habits start 434 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: really early. And that's why the bulk of Peter's resources 435 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: go to campaigns that are to reach the youth. That's 436 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: why we have so many things that are may be 437 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: considered edgy by by older people, but by teenagers who 438 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: have a great sense of justice and most children, of 439 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: course love animals. They really respond to it. We have 440 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of street teamers who are a part 441 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: of our Youth Arm p T two. We get on 442 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: concert tours to get stuff to kids. We are very 443 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: active in high schoo goals and it's one of the 444 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: reasons I think now there's so much success and there's 445 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: a you know, back when Peter started, people thought of 446 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: vegan with somebody from Las Vegas. Now every TV show 447 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: has one, and it's something that has become a part 448 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: of our pop culture landscape. And I think a lot 449 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: of that is because there's a generation now that has 450 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: grown up with Peter in the background or the foreground. 451 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: But we've been a cultural force, and I think it 452 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: has made it something that people discussed at the dinner table. 453 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: They don't always like what we do, they might have 454 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: a problem with some of the things we do, but 455 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: overall people have seen that we're a charity that has 456 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: made an impact in culture, and now it's a it's 457 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: an impact that is actually gauge double from the change 458 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: is not only at the corporate level, but at a 459 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: society's level. Right here in New York City. Two weeks ago, 460 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: they announced that it's the first elementary school to go 461 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: all vegetarians because the demand of kids, the kids, the kids, 462 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: they went three days a week and the kids wanted 463 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: it all the time. And so it's great. What about 464 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: what's been a victory few in terms of circuses and 465 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: zoos and rodeos, Well, we have been most of performance. 466 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: That's right. We have been on Ringling Brothers trail all 467 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: across the country and we have been documenting which of 468 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: the animals have crippling arthroatis based on their walks and 469 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: how long has Peter been been going toe to toe 470 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: with ring At least twenty years, Yeah, I mean since 471 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: I've been there in eight five. We would do protests, 472 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: but then we started hiring elephant experts, people who really 473 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: knew how to assess the health of ane captured video. 474 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: In three instances, we had video of elephants being beaten 475 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: as an elephant that drowned, and we filed a complaint 476 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: with the U. S c A asking that these cases 477 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: be prosecuted. And under the George W. Bush administration, these 478 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: cases were allowed to expire without any reaction whatsoever. So 479 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: when Obama was elected and he hired a new U 480 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: s t A UH secretary, we had Pink, the singer Pink, 481 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: who is a big elephant advocate, do a big blitz 482 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: to get the Obama administration to reopen these cases based 483 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 1: on the video evidence. And they reopened the cases and 484 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: they find Wringling two hundred and seventy thousand dollars and 485 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: it's sent shock waves through the circus industry. Why do 486 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: you think people who abuse these animals and Ringling brothers, 487 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: why do they do that? Because the elephants won't obey 488 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: the commands unless they are beaten with these bullhooks. It's 489 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: these sharp metal So this is the most significant aspect 490 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: of this, which is something I would say over and 491 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: over again about animals and performance, which is, you know, 492 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: they don't come out of the womb with a top 493 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: hat in one hand and a cane in the other. 494 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: In order to make these animals perform in ways that 495 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: they were not meant to perform, They've got to be 496 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: beaten and abused to do that exactly. And I think 497 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: one of the most amazing whistleblower cases we ever had 498 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: was from Ringling's elephant handler. We got a call from 499 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: a guy who worked for twenty years, sorry, eleven years. 500 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: I I can't kids I say his name right now. Um, 501 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: it's part of ongoing, ongoing process. But he worked there 502 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: for eleven years. First he was just kind of a 503 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 1: lackey working in the animal compound. Then he became an 504 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: elephant handler and elephant trainer, and one of his jobs 505 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: was to rip the baby elephants away from their mother's dragging, 506 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: kicking and screaming. They tied them down, they beat them 507 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: until they would stand on one leg, until they would 508 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: stand on their head. They became completely reliant on the trainers, 509 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: food deprivation, beatings, shocks to get them to perform these 510 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: stunts that you see in the arena. And they have 511 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: to start doing it when their baby independent does ringling 512 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: or anyone like that. Because I want to be careful 513 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: in terms of the legality of this. The people that 514 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: are doing this to these animals in order to make 515 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: them ready for their close up so to speak, are 516 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: they wringling employees or the independent and really leases the 517 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: animal because you would they would. They are very careful 518 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: to only hire people at their compound who they exactly 519 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: And this guy worked there for eleven years and he 520 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: wasn't in the elephant compound at first. But what happened 521 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: was he told his wife when he got back to 522 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: the trailer after work about his work and the elephant compound, 523 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: and his wife said, for years, I don't mind you 524 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 1: working at the circus, but I think it's awful what 525 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: you're doing with the elephants. And they took pictures for 526 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: years of the training methods, not because they thought they 527 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: are cruel, but hey, look it's me beating an elephant 528 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: and tying a baby elephant down. And his wife a 529 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: few years ago got cancer and on her deathbed said, 530 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: please release these information. Is the one thing that I asked. 531 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: He called us and he turned all the year. This 532 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: was about five years ago, So this is still an ongoing. Yeah, 533 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: because it fueled so much fire for a whole bunch 534 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: of legal cases trying to get the federal government to 535 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: use the Endangered Species Act to stop this this kind 536 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: of treatment because he's actually endangered at elephants that there, 537 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: we've now got the goods from their own trainer. On 538 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: Ringling Brothers had to go on there today's show and 539 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: talk about how it's just these pictures are misleading. Uh, 540 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: they're really just gently trying to teach these animals to 541 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: do things. But people could see that from the photos 542 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: and the fact that they're separated from their mothers and 543 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: beaten and shocked. Ringling bys in bulk this gray makeup 544 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: that they put on the elephants when they're paraded before 545 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: the crowds to hide the blood and the bruises from 546 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: hooks from bullhooks, Yes, because they beat him behind the knees, 547 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: behind the ears, the areas that most sensitive. And they 548 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: actually put these bullhooks up their sleeves so that only 549 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: the metal hook comes out, so that people can't see 550 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: them very casually jab the elephants. Peters working very aggressive 551 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: legally because in each city, in most cities across the country, 552 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: they have laws aimed at keeping sick animals from working. 553 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: And we know that several animals have crippling arthritis and 554 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: they should not be allowed to work because of those laws, 555 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: and so we are working with city governments. The problem 556 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: is that the local animal control they know about dogs 557 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: and cats, they don't know about exotic animals like elephants 558 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: who are just passing through town for a week or so. 559 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: So we've hired elephant's. One of the benefits that Rainly 560 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: has is that they're always passing through town exactly. And 561 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: so what Peter has done is we've hired elephant experts 562 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: and sent them around the country to work with local 563 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: animal control to recognize these things and to be their 564 00:27:52,920 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: ready the inspection. In a minute, my guest, Dan Matthews, 565 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: Senior Vice president of People for the Ethical Treatment of 566 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: Animals explains why Peter actually owns a stock in Kentucky 567 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: Fried Chicken. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. 568 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, 569 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: or Peter as it's known, has gained notoriety with its 570 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: high profile, attention grabbing, undercover videos and other shock tactics 571 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: used to change the behavior of large and powerful industries. 572 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: But as my guest Dan Matthews explains, they don't just 573 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: fight from outside the system. We were able to pressure 574 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: Burger King and McDonald's and a lot of others to 575 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: make some basic improvements. We had to fight hard for 576 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: McDonald to stop buying meat from slaughterhouses that failed inspection. 577 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: We look at very molecular level at the government regulations 578 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: and what the uh and did they agree to that. 579 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: They did agree to that, but it took seven years 580 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: of campaigning for even to get them to go to 581 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: that that basic way. Right now we are trying to 582 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: persuade McDonald's and KFC to stop boiling chickens alive and 583 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: the feathering tanks. Why don't they kill them first? Well, 584 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: in Europe they've changed too much more modern, more humane standards. 585 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: But they put them in a room, they take out 586 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: a part of the oxygen. The chickens go to sleep 587 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: and they never wake up. There's no gas, there's nothing 588 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: like that. It's just they take out part of the 589 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: oxygen and they go to sleep. Here we're still using 590 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: old methods because the factories have been doing it since 591 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: the fifties. Where they hoist them by a foot into 592 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: a conveyor belt. There's a spinning blade which is supposed 593 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: to either chop their head off or slice their throat. 594 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: But the chickens, who look like little old men, desperately 595 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: swing to not get the blade exactly, and then they're 596 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: dumped into the vative. They're bad. Look if they end 597 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: up alive in the boiling text boil boiling exactly. It's 598 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: the defeathering tank. And so when you have a chicken 599 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: McNugget or a KFCA meal, you're eating a bird that 600 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: was boiled alive. That's how they died. Possibly most likely, yeah, 601 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: most likely. And we've got all the char and we 602 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: speak at their shareholders meetings. We're trying to get them 603 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: to just at least match what is being done in Europe. 604 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: They're very, very slow to change because it's a you know, 605 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: a million dollar layout to upgrade their facilities, and why 606 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: should they have to do that If they can save 607 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: two cents and show shareholders that they've saved two cents 608 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: per bird, doesn't matter how despicable their methods are. They 609 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: think that's progress. And so as a cultural force, PEEDA 610 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: has been able to infiltrate stockholder We buy shares of 611 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: stock and all of our adversaries and raise this issue 612 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 1: when we try to get more percentages each time, so 613 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: that shareholders take this issue more seriously. But it takes years. 614 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: It takes new generations of shareholders to come up and 615 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: and insist on these changes. But tom, but if they're happening. 616 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: We also meet with the companies to try to get 617 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: them to uh switch their methods, and we have some 618 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: success with that. But what about augmenting or modifying the 619 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: menus themselves to provide healthier options? Is that your bag 620 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: at all? It is definitely our bag, and it's other 621 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: people are doing it as well. But we persuaded KFC 622 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: in Canada to add a vegan chicken sandwich on their menu, 623 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: which was a real feat, especially because that guy who 624 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: owned that that chain was very hostile at first. We 625 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: do veggie burger giveaways all over the country. We do 626 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: promotions that every season we go to gas stations whenever 627 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: there is a gas prices spike in a particular town 628 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: and offer to help people fill their tank if they 629 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: try a new vegan thing. And it gets a huge 630 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: amount of press in these h towns where we do it, 631 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: we have a pretty good response. I would say, was 632 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: there ever a time did you ever sit there and 633 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: look at material and look at evidence and look at 634 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: a story and you said, we're gonna go in and 635 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna kill these people, and you went in and 636 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: you got it wrong? That ever happened. Our lawyers are 637 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: too good for that. Everything that we don't I don't 638 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: even mean in a malicious way, even accidentally. Did you 639 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: ever sit there or were you out to now? We're 640 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: because of the nature of the industries that we target, 641 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: are very litigious. We are dead solid, absolutely absolutely. Unfortunately, 642 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: the evidence is always so overwhelming and so hideous that 643 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: sometimes we have to tone down the worst things because 644 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: people literally can't stomach them. Like the fox on the 645 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: Chinese fur farm who skinned alive and the only thing 646 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: left that's furry is the poor foxes eyelashes still beating 647 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: as he's gasping. Just it looks like a it looks 648 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: like a video on video. That's what got Martha Stewart 649 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: to finally renounce for and host our video expose condemning for. 650 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: My favorite thing is really reaching people who, um, what 651 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: was the victory in the fur industry? What what designer 652 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: Calvin Klein? So Calvin Klein was a hero there. Yeah, 653 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: that he illustrates really why Peter has to do actions 654 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: the way we do. When we first started targeting designers 655 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: back in the nineties, Calvin was the designer who was 656 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: most visible with Fury'd had a line for nineteen years. 657 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: We asked to meet, We asked to show him the evidence, 658 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: and we never got a call back. So I went 659 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: to his office, UH and case the place. I were 660 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: all black, so it looked like I might be part 661 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: of the fashion pact that was there, made friends with 662 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: a security guard UH, and came back the next day 663 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: with a dozen other interns and we went up and 664 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: took over his office and we put literature on all 665 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: the desks. We were screaming, chanting Calvin Klein kills animals. Uh, 666 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: somebody spray painted kills animals beneath the Calvin Klein logo. 667 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: His wall had a Calvin Klein silver and boss logo 668 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: in his office, in his office at the entry way, 669 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: and so somebody, So what happened again? I just want 670 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: to because the people that are your critics talk about 671 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: those things which your acts of We knew that we 672 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: had to do something with nobody returning our calls in 673 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: the fashion world. And I'm not questioning your motive is 674 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: that I understand what I'm saying. When you deface someone's 675 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: private property, what happens to you? That there was everybody 676 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: went to jail, that the cops were called and it 677 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: was got arrested. Yes, everybody go to rent to jail. 678 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: Everybody went to jail. But Calvin uh was so more 679 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: defied by this that he and we did. We timed 680 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: it because he was about to get some big award 681 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: and he thought, you know, so Nobel Prize Profashion. He 682 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: I picked up my phone, uh four days later, and 683 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: it's Calvin Klein's vice president asking if I would come 684 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: in for a meeting. I gotta tell you, I was 685 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: much more nervous going back as an invited guest than 686 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: as a as a protester, and we sat down and 687 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: I showed him the video showing how beavers are drowned 688 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: and underwater traps, and Shinchila's are genitally electrocuted, and all 689 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: the other hard execution exactly of foxes to preserve them, 690 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: the pelt and every exactly on the profacot. When I 691 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: first learned that, I thought I was going to faint. 692 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: And it's dozens of animals for one coat that that 693 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: has that kind of suffering. I went back to his 694 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: office and he said, oh, leave the video and I'll 695 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: watch it. I said, no, I'm not going to leave 696 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: the video. I'm gonna stay here until you watch the video. 697 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: So they had to get somebody to set up the TV. 698 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: We watched the video and he said he was horrified. 699 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: He said, I have spent nineteen years avoid that video 700 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: and now I can't in good conscious use for anymore. 701 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: And I said, fantastic, But I needed in writing. How 702 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: did you get so tough? Well? How did you get 703 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: this way? I grew up in the punk scene. I 704 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe I always get to where you're in 705 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: Calvin Klein's office saying I'm not leaving until you watch 706 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: the video. And then well, there was actually needed in writing. 707 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: I had a copy of for World, the trade magazine, 708 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: that said that Calvin had just inked a deal for 709 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: a new line. So after he agreed to do it, 710 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: agreed to put it in writing, and I said, and 711 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: what about this? And he said, uh, don't you can't 712 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: believe everything you read. I'm out of the fur trade. 713 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: So he called in his communications vice president Lintazoro was 714 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: her name. I'll never forget, and we did a mutual 715 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: statement and it was in the New York Times the 716 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: next day, and it sent shockwaves throughout the fashion world, 717 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: and it showed that, you know, obviously remained faithful to that. 718 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: Then he's not only remained faithful to that, but he's 719 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: become a good friend. And he always tells me the 720 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: extraordinary He said, you know, extraordinary matter. If you ever 721 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: worry about going too far, just think of this case. 722 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: And this is the only way to get people like 723 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: like me to get our attention. Because in the fashion 724 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: world we don't care about it. There are people that 725 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: have swung the other way, who actually take pride in 726 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: the They're the last remaining bastion of f Yeah and yeah, 727 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,439 Speaker 1: I mean I met with Michael Cores and said, you're 728 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: doing broad tail lamb. These are baby lambs who are 729 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: literally killed as they're born, before there's even the after 730 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: birth washed off because the afterbirth makes the skin so 731 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: much softer. These animals the only thing they see in 732 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: the world is a club coming down to beat them 733 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: to death in the head. And this is what broad 734 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: tail lamb is. And how can you and good conscience 735 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: sell this? And he said, as long as it's not 736 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: illegal wherever they're producing it, I'll do it. I don't 737 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: care if there's a market for it, I'll do it. Um. 738 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: And he, you know, said this to my face. It's 739 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: actually in my book. I wrote a memoir Committed which 740 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: to go to this conversation type place about eight years ago, 741 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: and he's been unrepentant since. That's right. So you're in this, 742 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: uh what we'll call, you know, the Hollywood Walk of 743 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: Fame of the animal rights world. Um. And in that group, 744 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: people wouldn't put you with them. But Animal Liberation Front is, 745 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: of course another well known organization. Do have you always 746 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: kept them at arms length? Have you had any kind 747 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: of contact with them? What's your relationship like with them? Actually, 748 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: I got involved in animal rights through the Animal Liberation 749 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: from when I was in high school. I was not 750 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: involved myself, but they were involved in the tile protest. 751 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: My best friend in high school, Connie, and I write 752 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: about this in my book Committed. Because the Statute of 753 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: Limitations has expired long ago. My best friend Connie would 754 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: do surveillance outside of City of Hope and outside of 755 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: other laboratories. You see a riverside before these laboratories were rated, 756 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: not just to get the animals out, but to get 757 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: up the documents showing that the research protocols weren't followed 758 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: and that the animal welfare guidelines weren't followed. This was 759 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: even before Peter was so known. So that was my 760 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: link and that's how I got involved with through a 761 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: direct action sort of point of view. But to me, 762 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up in a Rundown apartment complex 763 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: that didn't allow animals, and I had a mother that 764 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: urged us to bring in all the cats that were 765 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: being abused by bullies in the alley. People are really 766 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: kids can be really mean to animals, uh, And I 767 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: just grew up with the understanding that you know, if 768 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: an animals being abused, you do something about it. I 769 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: grew up with the idea that you're supposed to react 770 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: and correct and expose and fight the sort of abuse. 771 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,479 Speaker 1: So what's your relationship where they left now? Um, there's none. 772 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean I haven't done. You feel you have to 773 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: be very careful. I mean when you're talk in one breath. 774 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: But the caution that you use that you employ in 775 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: terms of your protest work because of the lititiousness of 776 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: the Ringling brothers and so forth and other corporations, what's 777 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: that like for you in terms of your relationship with 778 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: a canea left you have to keep them in arms 779 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: like Well, I think it's just it's all different now. 780 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: Now we have whistleblowers that are on the inside who 781 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: get us into film. You know, the laboratories that were 782 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: rated back in the eighties have become bunkers now. I 783 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: don't think that there's much of a way to get inside. 784 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: And I think what Peter has done in a very 785 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: savvy way due to our lawyers, as we are in 786 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: it for the long haul. We are in an organization 787 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: that has lots of roots, but we want to be 788 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: around for the long haul. So we're very very careful 789 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: to pick cases that spot like whistleblowers findings that are 790 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: are lawful investigations of cruelty, and they become so successful 791 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: that now the meat trade is trying to change the 792 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: law so that we can even work with whistleblowers to 793 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: get this evidence, of which is the gang bills. People struggle, 794 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: no doubt with UM achieving a kind of deep, deep, 795 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: ascended level of devotion toward animal rights and a level 796 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,240 Speaker 1: of purity in terms of their diet and their consumption 797 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: and so forth. But if you said to them, here's 798 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: one thing I think you should give up, what would 799 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: you say? I would tell them to watch our ten 800 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: minute Paul McCartney video called Meet Your Meat, which you 801 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: had had hosted as well at some point, and we 802 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: put updated it with new footage, and decide for yourself. 803 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: Decide for yourself what you want to give up. And 804 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: you may find that you had no idea that that 805 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: chickens injured that, or that pigs injured that, or you know, 806 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: just I don't think people should think of it as 807 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: a devotion to to animals necessarily. It's just like it's 808 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: just basic respect and as a respect for yourself as well. 809 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: It is a primal it is I mean, I want 810 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: to come clean with you and be honest with you, 811 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: which is I gave up beef in n and I 812 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: gave up poultry in you know. I mean, I'm I'm 813 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: a big, big, no hypocrisy supporter of the animals and 814 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: performance and I'll never go to a circus or a 815 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: zoo or so forth. I'm big on the crash testing 816 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of things I'm really really strong about. 817 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: But I would remember that. I mean, I went and 818 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: didn't need poultry from two thousand and four, and then 819 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: I snapped and I ate a turkey sandwich in a 820 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: moment of complete freak out. My friend ordered a turkey 821 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: sandwich and I was sitting there. It was like a 822 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: scene from Altered States, where like the primal gene came 823 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: leaping through me and I ate the turkey sandwich. Well, 824 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,479 Speaker 1: there's nothing like that flesh ripping sensation. Fortunately, nowadays there's 825 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: the products that you can get that have that same chewy, 826 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: grizzly that's what. That's what, that's that's where I went 827 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: up going. There's so many great ones, especially in New York. 828 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: There's fantastic restaurants all the town, but Blossom has. You 829 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: can get a bacon cheeseburger at Blossom. I'm not kidding, 830 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: and it's really, really, really something. It is good. When 831 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: did you stop eating meat? I stopped eating meat when 832 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: I was fourteen, on a fishing trip with my dad. 833 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: I used to go fishing back. I never went back. 834 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: The only kind of animal I ever killed was a fish. 835 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: And so that's where I started. Because I I was 836 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: I used to get beat up for being gay and 837 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,919 Speaker 1: for being a punk rocker in high school. And one 838 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: day between classes, some kid hauled off and slugged me 839 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: in the stomach and I was doubled over, out of breath, 840 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: laying on the ground, gasping for air. And I looked 841 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: up and there was just all these people staring down 842 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: looking at me and laughing, and I couldn't even speak, 843 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: I couldn't breathe. A few weeks later, I was on 844 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 1: a fishing trip with my dad and I caught a 845 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: flounder and it was a big, heavy fish. Got him 846 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: on the deck, two eyes on one side of his head. 847 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: Somebody omped on and pulled the hook out of his mouth, 848 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: and I looked down and here's this poor creature gasping 849 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: for breath, looking up at the circle of people standing 850 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: around him, and everybody was looking down and laughing at him, 851 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: and I thought, wait a second, now I'm the bully. 852 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: I went vegetarian then, except for it took a little 853 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: a little while longer with chicken, and I went vegan 854 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,439 Speaker 1: a few years later when I started working at Peter. 855 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: I want to learn more about that, but it was 856 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, But it was the visceral thing that 857 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: I had just plucked this creature from the bottom of 858 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: the ocean into this horrible world with these people just 859 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: laughing at his misery, and I thought, who the hell 860 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: am I to do that? So that was the turning 861 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 1: point moment in my life too. I want to participate 862 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: in blood and guts. Of course, hamburgers and stuff that 863 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: you get in the drive through. You don't see the 864 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: chain of violence that you're responsible for. But it hit 865 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: me right home that day, and um, that completely changed 866 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: my my thinking about this issue. My friend Mary Brosnahan 867 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 1: is the executive director of Coalition for the Homeless, and 868 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: she has given her professional life. I mean, she's a 869 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 1: grown woman with a child and she's worked for I 870 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: think twenty five years with Coalition for the Homeless has 871 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,720 Speaker 1: been her professional career since she was a very young woman, 872 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: and you, similarly a couple of years shy of being 873 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: fifty years old. It's hard to believe that the eternally youthful, 874 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: the Peter pan as I'd like to think of you, 875 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: of the animal rightsman with Dan Matthews, the great Dan 876 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: Matthews is almost going to be fifty. But you yourself 877 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: have given your professional life to one cause and to 878 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: one group of people. And I was wondering as we 879 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: as we fade out here, why why have you stayed 880 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: with Peter all this time? Well, because it goes back 881 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: to my history degree. I know, I've studied other movements 882 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: throughout history, and I've studied what made the women's movement 883 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: finally clicked the civil rights movement, and it was always, 884 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: without exception agitation. There always had to be a cutting 885 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: edge group that may not have been popular in its day, 886 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: but historically was deemed the breakthrough organization to put this 887 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: issue into the public discourse and finally get some change. 888 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: And so um. Luckily, I'm a kind of a notious person, 889 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: so I have no problem being an agitator, but I I, 890 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: you know, have a really clear focus on what we're 891 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: doing and what the outcome can be, and what the 892 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: outcome has been. We've got so many great cases of 893 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: success now, and all of them show that I had 894 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: a lot of successes. And I think I just take 895 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: your obnoxious. But I think you're determined. I think you're 896 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: committed so beyond the bacon cheeseburger that you could refer 897 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: to it blossom. What does um one of the great 898 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: princes of the animal rights movement, the great Dan Matthews, 899 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: what does Dan Matthews have for dessert? Um, let your 900 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: go to vegan dessert. I really like sorbet. You can 901 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: find it anywhere. It's usually good. I know it sounds simple. 902 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: I know it sounds really faggy, but what can I say. 903 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: It's that simple. It's exactly no to foodie cutis. I 904 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,320 Speaker 1: like that stuff. I mean when you find it. I 905 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: really like ethnic foods. I really like spicy things. I'm 906 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: not I don't have a big sweet tooth. But you 907 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: know you can find a Goldenberg's peanut chew in any 908 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,439 Speaker 1: drug store that's vegan. We have on our website. Even 909 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 1: stuff you can find, uh you know at seven eleven 910 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: or Target that's vegan, but um, you cant. I rarely 911 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: go to a vegetarian restaurant. I go to wherever I 912 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: happen to be for a meeting and grab what I can. 913 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: And now it's getting so easy. It's I think a 914 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: new generation has decided it doesn't want to make the 915 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: same mistakes as our grandparents and parents that died of 916 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: heart disease or got whatever form of cancer and now Alzheimer's. 917 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: Were just evolving as a species away from a meat 918 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: based diet, just as we've evolved away from other bad 919 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: practices in the past. I think we're just evolving emotionally 920 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: and spiritually away from this idea that animals have to 921 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: die for us to live. Actually, their animals dying for 922 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:53,919 Speaker 1: us is keeping us from living fully. Dan Matthews says 923 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: he's always been drawn to extremes and find traditional activism dreary. 924 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: This fall, he'll be working with former TV game show 925 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: host Bob Barker, who's been a vegetarian for over twenty 926 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: five years, on Peter's new campaign Food for Thought. This 927 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing