1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to The Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 2: Matt Levine, I'm the Money Stuff columnist at Bloomberg Opinion. 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: And I'm Katie Greifeld. I'm a reporter for Bloomberg News 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: and an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: Katie, Welcome to the Best Day of Our Lives, the 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: very first Money Stuff Podcast. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: It is the best day of our lives, and every 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: Friday will be the best day of our lives because 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: that's only go up from here, only going up. We're 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: going to talk about some stuff from your columns every 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: single Friday, and it's going to be fun. 14 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: You made that sound like a threat in. 15 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: Many ways, it is. Those are our marching orders, and 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: we're going to have fun. 17 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: What are you talking about this week, Katie, What a 18 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: great question. 19 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: We actually have a really strong first episode because we're 20 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: going to be talking about the Destiny Tech one hundred 21 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: fund close stend fund publicly listed. The stock has been 22 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: going nuts and there's a lot to say here. Yes, 23 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: and then we're going to go from Destiny to Mango, 24 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: specifically Mango markets and we're going to talk about whether 25 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: code actually is law or is law law, a lot 26 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: of big existential questions there, and then we're going to 27 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: talk about super users, this time related to inflation and 28 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: also the nature of insider trading and the Bureau of 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Labor Statistics. Indeed, Matt, what is Destiny The. 30 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: Destiny Tech one hundred is a publicly traded fund that 31 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 2: invests in private tech companies. So right now, as of 32 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 2: their last disclosure, they have about a fifty million dollar 33 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: portfolio of steaks in like twenty three private companies. A 34 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: lot of it is SpaceX, some of it is like 35 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: you know, plaid and stripe and all the other patterns 36 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: that are also FinTechs. So they have this pot of 37 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: stock and they sold shares in the fund to the public. 38 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: They like did a direct listing last month, and since 39 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: then the stock has just only gone off. It's not 40 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: even been very volatile, but it's way above where they 41 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 2: listed it at. And so right now that fifty million 42 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: dollar pot of private stocks has a market value of 43 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: something like five hundred million dollars, which is one thousand 44 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: percent premium to the net asset value of the fund, 45 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: which seems real high. 46 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: And you and I have both spoken to the CEO. 47 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: His name is Sohail Prisad. What's remarkable is that he 48 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: doesn't seem super stressed about the premium or the volatility 49 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: of the stock. I mean I spoke to him on 50 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: Thursday morning on TV and his explanation was there in 51 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: a discovery phase. Have only been public for about two weeks, 52 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: which is fair, but I might be a little bit 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: stressed out. 54 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: To me, it just seems like a disaster to do 55 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: this thing and have it traded one thousand percent premium. 56 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: But others would disagree, apparently including him, because to me, 57 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: like the thing you're marketing is like you can buy 58 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: exposure to these private tech companies. Never before have you 59 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: been able to buy shares of SpaceX and Stripe, And 60 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 2: we are giving you that exposure, which is a great pitch, 61 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: which is not true if you're trading at one thousand 62 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: percent pew. If you're trading a one thousand percent premium, 63 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: retail investors can only buy the premium, right Like when 64 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: they put their money in, they're getting like five dollars 65 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: worth of private tech stocks and like fifty dollars worth 66 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: of public market volatile frothy enthusiasm for the stock. The 67 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: product that he's saying is only that product if it 68 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: trades like at a round the net asset value. 69 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: Well, you had a suggested solution for him in the 70 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: form of issuing more shares, which I don't know if 71 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: it would help the retail traders who are buying in 72 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: right now at one thousand percent premium, but it would 73 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: theoretically if they sold enough, help to collapse the premium 74 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: a little bit. 75 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: Right. You suggested that solution to him, didn't you. 76 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And he can't really talk about that, especially not 77 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: on live television, and we can we can theorize about it. 78 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: One way to think about what he has is he's 79 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: got a fifty million dollar venture fund and there's like 80 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: a two billion dollar waiting list for that fund or 81 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: whatever I made that number up. But like the market 82 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: cap of the fund is so far above the acid 83 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: value of the fund that like a lot of people 84 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: clearly want to put their money into a thing that 85 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: gives them exposure to private textlocks. So what he can 86 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: do is he can like take names off the waiting list. 87 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: He can sell a bunch of stock to the public 88 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: app a huge premium to the current net asset value, 89 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: and he can take that money and invest it into 90 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: private tech startups. And if you do that over time, 91 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: probably the premium compresses because you're selling a lot of stock, 92 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: you're buying a lot of the underlying portfolio, and you 93 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: end up with a fund that is much bigger by 94 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: net asset value than it is today, probably bigger by 95 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 2: market cap. But like instead of trading at one thousand 96 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: percent premium, it trades it's something that sort of reflects 97 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: the value of the underlying private companies. 98 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: The question of him deploying capital is also really interesting one, 99 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: and first of all, how he's actually getting these shares 100 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: in private companies. He said that it's through a combination 101 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: of private stakes, trading platforms, and investing directly. But one 102 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: of the interesting nuggets from the interview that I had 103 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: with him was that he has these private companies calling 104 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: him now, which is probably a result of the fact 105 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: that we all keep talking about it. 106 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: It's brilliant. I mean you look at the disclosure of 107 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: their portfolio and also like what he said about it, 108 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: like it really like he's like scraping sticks together to 109 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: find private company stakes, right, He's like calling employees and 110 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: being like, hey, could you do a forward contract and 111 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 2: they're like, no, we're not allowed to. Our company will 112 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: let us, and oh, you know, maybe we can do 113 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: it under the table, right. You know, he's finding things 114 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: in the secondary market. It's like piecing together this portfolio 115 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: because he's just like a guy, you know, like that. 116 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: It's not true. He's the founder of forts, like, he's 117 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: got some experience in private markets, but these big tech 118 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: companies can kind of choose their investors and it's not 119 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: necessarily easy to get in. But now he's a much 120 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: higher profile because he's got this huge you know, market 121 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: cap to his fund. There's like clear pent up demand 122 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: from retail investors. He's getting a lot of press coverage 123 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: and so yeah, this is a marketing tool not only 124 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: to retail investors, but also to companies who might you know, 125 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:50,239 Speaker 2: want to sell him some stuck. 126 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: It's just really interesting that this is happening this week. 127 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: I'm really grateful because this is the first week that 128 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: we're recording the money Soff podcasts. But also I feel 129 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: like we're just at the moment in public equity markets 130 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: where the public equity market has been shrinking. You hear 131 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: about all these hot, shiny startups that the average person 132 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: can't get exposure to. And again, an interesting week to 133 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: be having this conversation because I actually also spoke to 134 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: Kristen Olsen from Goldman Sachs this week. She is the 135 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: global head of Alternative Capital Markets and her pitch for 136 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: why people should invest in private markets is because companies 137 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: are saying private so much longer, you're missing out on 138 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: all that growth. You know, the company that goes public, 139 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: you've already missed out on a ton of that growth, 140 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: which makes sense if you're pitching private markets. But I 141 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: feel like all of this sort of ties into a 142 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: general theme of there's been a dearth of IPOs, the 143 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: public market is shrinking, and it feels like all the 144 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: exciting stuff is happening outside of public markets. 145 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what everyone thinks, which is why 146 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: this thing is so popular. But of course it undermines 147 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: the mechanics of this thing, because if you're like, oh, 148 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: private companies grow so fast, so we should get in 149 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: before they go public, you get in at twenty times 150 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: their valuation, then it doesn't work anymore. Right. It's funy 151 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 2: to like imagine the sort of end case for this. 152 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: What if like everyone agrees with the thesis that you 153 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: should get into private companies and they should do it 154 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: through this fund, then that's going to bid up private valuations. Right. Yeah, 155 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: we talked earlier about how he is getting calls from companies, 156 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: right because like, one, he's like in the news companies 157 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: who want to raise money, Like, oh, here's a guy 158 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: who has money. But also he has a lot of 159 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: flexibility to pay up on valuations, right because like people 160 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: are already buying into his fund at ten times in 161 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: that asset value. Like if he pays twice the last 162 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: funding round for a company, like that's fine, that's easy. 163 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: Like that's a that's a good trade for him. I mean, 164 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: the one reason that private companies are cheap is that 165 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: they're young, and that one grown yet. But another reason is, like, 166 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: you know, you don't have liquidity, you don't have the 167 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: same number of investors that have access to private markets 168 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: as you have in the public markets. In one sense, 169 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: it's a way to like democratize private companies, but another way, 170 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: that's a way for private companies to access all those 171 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: public investors and bid up their price. 172 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 1: It's interesting that he's in this position because this isn't 173 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: a new pitch the Destiny Tech one hundred funds. This 174 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: idea has been brought forward by ARC before they have 175 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: the ARC Venture Fund, and it hasn't created this moment 176 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: that this fund has. And I find it interesting that 177 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: again he is in this position. 178 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think they all have different structures, and I 179 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: think the ARC Venture Fund is not as exchange traded. Yes, 180 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: that really matters, right. The weird thing about this fund 181 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: is not that it's a way for public investors to 182 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: put money into a fund that invests in produate companies. 183 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 2: It's that it's a publicly traded way for them to 184 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: do it. So it has a market price, and it 185 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: turns out the market clearing price for that product, like 186 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: at this point where the product is so small, is 187 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: much much higher than the amount of money though to put. 188 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: And that's kind of wild. We live in a memestock world. 189 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: Things like that just build on themselves because you attract 190 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: attention to us thought because it's like gone way up 191 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: and it's trading way over acid value, and that just 192 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: attracts attention and more people get into it. 193 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, I feel like we're going to be talking about 194 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: this again because in declining to answer one of the 195 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: questions I asked him, which is has your net acid 196 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: value changed materially since the end of twenty twenty three 197 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: when they last provided it. He said, can't say anything 198 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: about that. Obviously, they calculate it on a quarterly basis, 199 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 1: but they report earnings I believe at the end of 200 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: April or the beginning of May. So it's gonna be 201 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: really fun to see if it's changed from that four 202 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: dollars and eighty four cents net acid value that they had. 203 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I mean they owned steaks and 204 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 2: big private tech companies. Rights that market doubled in the 205 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: last you know it has has it ten times? 206 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: We're going to find out. Stay tuned. I think I 207 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: have a guess. Mangoes, what is Mango markets? 208 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: Mango Markets is a decentralized finance trading platform. 209 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,119 Speaker 1: I haven't thought about one of those in a while. 210 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: I know, right, But this guy blew it up in 211 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and he was arrested and he's going 212 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: on trial this week. And the question is is it 213 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 2: legal to blow up a DeFi trading market? That's not 214 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: really the question. The question is is code law or 215 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: is law law? 216 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: Those are just some big heavy questions because crypto obviously 217 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: would say code is law, and I mean. 218 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 2: You say that until you're a trading platform gets blown 219 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: up and then you're like, wait a minute, that was fraud. Right, 220 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: This is not how it always works. 221 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: Right. 222 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: You're like, as long as you're the smart one, you're like, yeah, 223 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: anything goes, you don't need regulators. But then you get 224 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: blown up and you're like, ah, where there were regulators? 225 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: Well, explain to me briefly, what is the part of 226 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: the code that he exploited. 227 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 2: Okay, So Mango Markets is like a decentralized finance trading platform. 228 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: You can trade perpetual features like sort of derivatives on 229 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: crypto tokens. Right, people love this. There's all sorts of 230 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: crypto trading platforms that allow you to speculate on other cryptotokens. 231 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: Mango Markets, as a DeFi trading platform, also had its 232 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: own token called Mango or ngo like mngo and so 233 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: I thin guy did so he set up two accounts 234 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: on Mango Markets. Because everything's anonymous, you know, it's not 235 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: like the way DeFi works, Like you're not like putting 236 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: down your credit card and your driver's license like you 237 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: just set up a wallet, right for sure. So he 238 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: set in two accounts on Mago markets. In one of 239 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: those accounts, he offered to sell a ton of futures 240 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: on the Mango token, and the other account he offered 241 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: to buy a ton of futures on the Mago token. 242 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: And like, no one else was trading in that minute, 243 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: so they crossed, and so he ended up long a 244 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: bunch of futures in one account, short a bunch of 245 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 2: futures in the other account. And for these days, you 246 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: have to put up some collateral, right, so he had 247 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: like he had some exposure to the Mango token, and 248 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: he had to put up collateral on both sides of 249 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 2: the trade. And then he went out in a third 250 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: market elsewhere and he just bought the Mango token. So 251 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: not future is not a weird drove as trade. He 252 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: just bought the Mango token. And like it turns out, 253 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: there's not that many people want to buy that many 254 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: Mango tokens, and so he really drove out the price 255 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: a lot, but like one thousand percent or more. And 256 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: what this meant was that his derivatives contracts. His two 257 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 2: accounts on the Mango trading platform, one of them had 258 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: a huge profit, you know, one hundreds of millions of dollars, 259 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: and the other one had a huge loss, hundreds of 260 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: millions of dollars. And what happened is that he took 261 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: the one with the profit and he went to like 262 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: the Mango you know, exchange platform, and he said, I 263 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 2: want to borrow against all this profit. Basically, I want 264 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: to withdraw some of my winnings. And so he withdrew 265 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 2: like one hundred million dollars of winnings. Meanwhile, on the 266 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: other side, he had hundred million dollars of losses and 267 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: he didn't post any collateral for those. But like there's 268 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: a there's like the moment in time where he could 269 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: withdraw on the winning side and ignore the losing side, 270 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: and then you know, everything collapses because he like walks 271 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: away with this hundred million dollars. The price of the 272 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: token goes back down, and Mango Markets has lost one 273 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars of customer money and basically is blown up. 274 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: And then he like calls them up and says, I'll 275 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: give you back some of the money, and like they 276 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: negotiate a sort of return of some of the money 277 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: in exchange for them not pressing charges. By the way, 278 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 2: pressing charges is not really a thing if you commit 279 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: a federal crime and like your victims like I don't 280 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: want press charges, like the federal government can still go 281 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: ahead and prosecute you. And that's what happened. But anyway, 282 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 2: it's great because like one, it's like it's just very 283 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: like simple trade and it's like people things that are 284 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: sort of rhyme with this in like real financial markets. 285 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: This manipulation is like way too simple to do in 286 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: the real financial markets. But like he managed it in 287 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 2: a DeFi market where basically they were not careful about 288 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: structuring how people could withdraw money and like how they're 289 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 2: token pricing worked. Just like the mechanics of how they 290 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: did this allowed him to do this exploit. And when 291 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: he was doing it, he was posting through it. He 292 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: was posting on Discord. Actually I think this is before 293 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 2: he did it. He posted on Discord being like I've 294 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: discovered and exploit and people were like, what is it? 295 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: Is it? And then they sort of described this and 296 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: he's like yes, he said, you take a long position 297 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: and then you make number go up numbers and umba, 298 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: of course you make number go up and like, that's 299 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 2: what he did. He took a long position, he made 300 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 2: the number go up, and then he'd, you know, cash 301 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: that before anyone noticed that it was all kind of fake. 302 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: I love that because it sort of gets back to 303 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: the code's law versus laws law. Like he wasn't secret 304 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: about it. He was very open and kind of proud 305 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: about it, which really speaks to the fact that, like 306 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: in his circles, in his discords, code is law. 307 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: I mean he went on Twitter after doing it. People 308 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: are like, oh my god, there's a there's a hack 309 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: of a lot of hackets. A better word is like 310 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: exploit or manipulation, because he didn't like break into the computers. 311 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 2: He just did the thing that the market allowed that 312 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: was bad. But after he did it, he went on 313 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: Twitter and under his own name and said I was 314 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: involved with a team that operated a highly profitable trading strategy. 315 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: Last Night Strategy. 316 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: I believe all of our actions were legal, open market 317 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 2: actions using the protocol as designed, even if the development 318 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: team did not fully anticipate all the consequences of setting 319 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: parameters the way they are. Unfortunately, the exchanges took place 320 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: on Mengo markets became insolvent as a result with the 321 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: insurance fund being insufficient to cover all equidations. And he's 322 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: not wrong about any of that. Like he used the 323 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: protocol the way it was designed. It was designed badly, 324 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: and he excited a lot of money for himself. 325 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: So that's what I was thinking about when I was 326 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: reading this. If he had been like a little less ambitious, 327 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: what if instead of what it was, like one hundred 328 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: and ten million dollars, it had been ten million dollars, 329 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: which is still a lot of money, but not collapsible money, 330 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: maybe this wouldn't have happened. 331 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an assumption that, like a lot of markets, 332 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: like people are leaning a little bit into trades and 333 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 2: like you know, doing like a little bit of manipulation 334 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: around the edges in a way that doesn't get them caught. 335 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: The problem is you can't like repeatedly do that here. 336 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: You know, you're taking risk of both of going to 337 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: prison and of losing money each time you do this trade. 338 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: So it kind of makes sense that if you're going 339 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: to do this trade, you're going to do it for 340 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: a big score, and he did it for a big score. 341 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: I agree with you that it probably attracted him more 342 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: attention than was good for him, yeah, or. 343 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. Obviously, the he wanted attention, which is 344 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: why he was posting vall. 345 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: I think he probably wanted the money, but yeah, the 346 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: attention of the money. He was not averse to the attention. 347 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: I mean, attention is definitely a commodity. 348 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but a one hundred million dollars podcast, I think 349 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: is better than the kind of attention that lends you're 350 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: in jail. Right, Yeah, perhaps he should have had less, 351 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: Like ordinarily, when you manipulate a market for one hundred 352 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: million dollars, it's nice to not mentioned that on Twitter. 353 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. 354 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I would have tweeted about it 355 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: once done it for one hundred and ten million dollars 356 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: and just walked away. But we didn't get into your 357 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: dream dichotomy world of nice versus fun markets. 358 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: I really like that, Yeah, I mean I just think that. 359 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: Like we talked about crypto people saying code is law, 360 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: Like that's not true, Like that's kind of true. But 361 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: a lot of crypto projects are about building some sort 362 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: of future of finance or decentralized ownership or something, and 363 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: the people working on that are not necessarily like also anarchists. Right, 364 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: some of them might be, but they have nothing to 365 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: do with each other. Right, Like you can believe that 366 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: crypto enables something special and new in like the economic world, 367 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: and also that it should be sobjet to regulation, you 368 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: shouldn't be able to like do fraud in it, right, 369 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: And a lot of people in crypto, I think, believe that. 370 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: And then a lot of people don't. And a lot 371 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: of people in crypto really believe code is law. Regulatory 372 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: interventions are generally bad and make things worse, and you 373 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: should just be careful and you should design your protocol directly. 374 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: And by the way, if you design it poorly and 375 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: someone exploits it for one hundred million dollars and you 376 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: go bankrupt, then like there's an evolutionary process whereby everyone 377 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 2: learns that lesson and the next protocol is more robust. 378 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: Whereas like regulation makes things worse because it makes people 379 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 2: less careful, you know, And I think, like you see 380 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 2: that playing out here, where like it's not like everyone 381 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: in crypto thinks this is great, right, Like a lot 382 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: of people are like this is bad. Like he's manipulating 383 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: a market. He wouldn't say this, but like other people 384 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: would say, he's stealing money from other investors on that platform, 385 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: and it's a bad outcome that makes crypto less attractive 386 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: to ordinary people and therefore makes crypto adoption harder. Right, Like, 387 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people in crypto find all 388 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: this anarchist stuff kind of distasteful. But then a lot 389 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 2: of people are like, look like, we're trying to build 390 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: a system that works on its own, or trying to 391 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 2: build a system of smart contracts, where like you don't 392 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: need to go to the court to enforce your contract, 393 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: you can just have the computer enforce your contract. And 394 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: we're undermining that when the Justice Department comes in to 395 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: bail people out of badly designed protocols. 396 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then again, the people who would like to 397 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: operate in the fun markets would probably say, we're finding 398 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: bugs in the code. 399 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, there are white hat hackers. Yeah, they're 400 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: getting a bug bounty. 401 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: I just liked those categories because I think all the time, 402 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: and I joke with my family that there should be 403 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: like the Dope versus the Clean Olympics, where you have 404 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: all the athletes taking drugs and they all race each 405 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: other and it'd be really interesting to see who wins. 406 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: But then you should also have the clean Olympics where 407 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: all the athletes actually don't drug themselves. 408 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: Right, And the reason you don't have the dope Olympics. 409 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: I think, well, probably a lot of reasons. 410 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: Is it's probably like not that healthy people to take 411 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: a lot of dope. But the nice thing about crypto is, 412 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 2: like Mango was just the marketplace for speculating our crypto teconds. 413 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: No one will die if Mango is a lawless market 414 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: where you can manipulate it to your heart's content. Right. 415 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: The problem here is that like some people on Mango 416 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: thought it was like not manipulated, and other people are like, oh, 417 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 2: what a fun place to manipulate. But like if everyone 418 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 2: had known going in, like hey, if there's any problem 419 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: with this protocol that allows someone to take all of 420 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: the money out of it, good for him. That's you're 421 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: a problem. No guarantees of anything working, No one will 422 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: rescue you. If everyone had had that expectation going in, 423 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: and if you could sort of prove that everyone had 424 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: that expectation, then like, yeah, it's fine, Yeah, who's it 425 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 2: like external harm? 426 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: No one died, all right? So were two thirds done? 427 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: Ye? 428 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: Just gotta know we just got to bring it home. 429 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: You know. 430 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: The third act is the hardest, is what they say 431 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: in playwriting. I don't know, Okay, super users, super us 432 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: of inflation. 433 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like that's a bad headline. 434 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: That's what the list was. 435 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: I know that's what it's called. Right, It's a bad 436 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: headline for the people who read it. 437 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: I think they have other worries right now, like what inflation. 438 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: No. So, the Viereau of Labor Statistics, which releases inflation data, 439 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: released inflation data a while back and there was like 440 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: a surprising change that was methodological. Right. 441 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: It was a big deal. 442 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's like nothing changed, like our calculations have 443 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: changed and this is why. Right. And so a person 444 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: at the bl US emailed a bunch of people not 445 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: at the PLS to explain this change that they didn't 446 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: freak out and so that they could understand what was 447 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 2: going on. And the email, unfortunately began super users Yeah, 448 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: And then it got forwarded around Wall Street because like, 449 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 2: people are very interested in the inflation numbers, and then 450 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: it got forwarded to reporters and people are like, wait, 451 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: there are super users of the Bureau Labor. Just looks like, 452 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: is there a higher tier of customer where the government 453 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: tells them information about inflation that everyone else doesn't get. 454 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: How do I then it became a scandal. How do 455 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: I subcress? They became a scandal? 456 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: Great reporting from the New York Times. And when you 457 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: think about who was actually on the list, because. 458 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: The scandal came out a while ago, and like the 459 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: Times last week Breakfast story that this not I went off, 460 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: there really was a group of super users. There were 461 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 2: people emailing the guy being like, hey, how do I 462 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 2: get on the super users list? It was a real thing. 463 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot of engagement 464 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: on that particular distribution list. Yeah, so the New York 465 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: Times submitted a Foyer request and now we ended up 466 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: with a good idea of who was on the list. 467 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: It was you know, GP Morgan, black Rock, and then 468 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: he had a bunch of hedge funds on the list 469 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: as well. And in your column you ask the question 470 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: of how bad is this, like is this insider trading? 471 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. Probably when it comes to what is 472 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: material information, the bar has come way down. 473 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: If the story was that there's a list of super users, 474 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 2: and before every like CPI data release, like the day 475 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: before the BLS sends the super users the release to 476 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 2: be like, hey, here's a preview. That would be really 477 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: bad and people would be going to jail, right, But 478 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: that's not at all what happened, right. Like what happened 479 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: is that, as far as I can tell, they put 480 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: out the data every you know, periodically, and people from 481 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: all over the place email or call the people in 482 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 2: charge of the data at the government saying hey, can 483 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: you explain this thing? And these people who work at 484 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: the BLS work for the people, right like their government employees, Like, 485 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: their job is to help people understand on these statistics, 486 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: and so when people call them and say, hey, can 487 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: you explain what's happening here, they try to explain it. 488 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: And so there's this range of things where like giving 489 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 2: people the data early would be really bad. Yeah, Like 490 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 2: answering their legitimate questions seems very legitimate. And when I 491 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 2: wrote about this the other day, like, I got a 492 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: lot of reader email being like this is fine and 493 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 2: exactly what they should be doing. Yeah, someone wrote to 494 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: me saying this is very strange. The BLS has people 495 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: who are supposed to answer questions from the outside. Literally, 496 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: anyone can email or call them and get answers. It's 497 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: not a scandal but a public service, right, which I 498 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: think is right. 499 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, there's definitely a sympathetic reading here. And I mean, 500 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: if you look at the statement that the BLS has 501 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: given to different media organizations, I believe they gave this 502 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: one to Bloomberg. Was that to your point, the BLS 503 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: it encourages people to ask questions and makes it staff 504 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: available to engage with the public, but they start to 505 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: create equal access to the information for everyone, of course. 506 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: But also in the New York Times reporting, they spoke 507 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: to someone who was actually on the Super Super Loser 508 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: super User list, Omerisha Reef. He is the founder of 509 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: Inflation Insights. He also is a recipient. He said that 510 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: this was relatively new and his best guess for why 511 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: the super user list was created was just because they're 512 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: getting so many more questions than they were previously about inflation, 513 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: and with the volumes of questions increasing so much, the 514 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: staffing has not, so maybe they just created a master list. 515 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: Let's just answer everyone's questions at once and put them 516 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: all on this list. 517 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: Which, when you think about it, is like the better 518 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: way to do it. Right. The thing you might worry 519 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 2: about is that analysts at hedge funds. One can call 520 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: the number at the BLS that anyone can call, but 521 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: two have better questions, right. They can ask really pointed 522 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: questions about things that will move the market, then get 523 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: specific answers, and then they can go trade on it 524 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: with everyone else not knowing it. If you do it 525 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: on an email list, it's a little bit fairer, right, So, like, 526 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: you know, the HEADEPHNT analyst emails the BLS and says, 527 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: can you explain this data point? And instead of writing 528 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: back and saying, yeah, sure, here you go, they can 529 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: send up to the whole list that wants the same explanation, 530 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: and you know, arguably can get on the list. It's 531 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: probably better than like the alternative of having one on 532 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: one conversations, yeah, about stuff that might be market moving. 533 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: But the whole problem here is if you're having any 534 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: form of conversations about stuff that might be market moving 535 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: and you're doing it in any way that is not public, 536 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: people are going to get upset about that, right because, 537 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: like it just is the case that some of these 538 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 2: hedge FOIND analysts got information that was not broadly disseminated 539 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: to the public, and that they found useful. Right, that's 540 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: why we're there. 541 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: I have a few silly thoughts. The first thing that's 542 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: thrown into my minds as you were talking was they 543 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: should have an earnings call. That doesn't quite work because 544 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about a company. 545 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: No, but that's right, I mean, like right, That's what 546 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 2: companies do to partially address this problem. Is like they 547 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: put out the press release and their earnings release, and 548 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: then they have a call where analysts can ask questions. 549 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: But you can hear. Everyone can hear the questions, everyone 550 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: can hear the answers, and so it's a little bit 551 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: more you know, open access than the system of doing 552 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 2: it by private emails. 553 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: Perhaps they could have a subreddit. A subreddit, yeah, and 554 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: this guy could be the moderator, this BLS economist who 555 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: was described as not super high ranking, but he had 556 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: been there for I know. 557 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: It was like a really mean nag in the time. 558 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: I know. Someone suggested an other approach that a lot 559 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: of government agencies g used for other things, which is 560 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 2: anyone can ask questions, but instead of just answering the questions, 561 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: they like collate the questions, write the answers, and then 562 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: put all of that out publicly at the same time, 563 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: so everyone gets the answers to everyone's questions, and everyone 564 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: gets to see the questions at once, which is sort 565 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: of like using the super user list, only instead of 566 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: just doing it in like a reply, I'll email you 567 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 2: do it online or something so everyone can see it. 568 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: Did you have any more reader comments? I feel like 569 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: you had a lot. 570 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, A bunch of people were all sort 571 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: of in the camp of this is all fun. Yeah, 572 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to read you another one. 573 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: Okay. 574 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: Why in the world can't anyone ask a question of 575 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: their government about technical aspects of the report the government 576 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: produced with their taxes. Granted, there won't be many people 577 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 2: with the ability to frame such questions, much less profit 578 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 2: from the answers, but the technique should be freely available 579 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: to anyone, even big hedge funds. 580 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: Seems invisible. 581 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's good government service. By the 582 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: way I think about this, I'm like more of a 583 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: stocks guy, and I think about this by analogy to 584 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: public company insider trading all the time, right, I mean, like, 585 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: if you're a public company and someone calls you up 586 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: and it's like I'm a big investor in your company, 587 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 2: I'm a shareholder in your company, you work for me, 588 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: I want you to explain something about your business, Like 589 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: your instinct is going to be to explain your business 590 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: to them, right, Like your instinct is going to be 591 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: I work for you. This is information that you legitimately want, 592 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell it to you. But you know, 593 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 2: there's also rules against insider trading, and there's rules against 594 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: selectively disclosing material and public information, and so companies are 595 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: constantly walking this tightrope between like we don't want to 596 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: like be dismissive through our shaholders and not tell them anything, 597 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 2: but we also don't want to tell them anything that 598 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: will get user them in trouble. And there's a lot 599 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: of thinking about that and a lot of people trying 600 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 2: to get that right. But it's just always strikes me 601 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 2: as kind of a weird balance, where like people who 602 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: know they're insider trading rules are sometimes shocked to find 603 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: out that companies talk to their investors all the time 604 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: and try to explain their companies to them. The Bureau 605 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 2: Labor said has the same problems. 606 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: They could also be like the FED. I mean, maybe 607 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: that's a better analogy than a corporate earnings call. The 608 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: FED releases their decision at two pm, and then two 609 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: thirty Jerome pal starts speaking and the entire knee jerk 610 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: reaction unravels. Matter. Are you on the super User's list? 611 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: It sounds like you could have just emailed them and 612 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: asked to be added to the list, and you could 613 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: be on the list. 614 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 2: I guess one question is does it still Is that 615 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: still a possibility? Like I feel like it's kind of 616 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: fraught now, And if I were to email the BLS 617 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: today and say, hey, guys, I'd love to be on 618 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: the super User List, I feel like that would be awkward. 619 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: But maybe I feel like you'd only do that if 620 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: you want to detrol them. 621 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: That's true of me. But the reasons for the super 622 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 2: User list haven't really gone away, right, They still have 623 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: to explain this stuff, And so now that it's so 624 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: well known, why shouldn't people be able to add themselves 625 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: to it. 626 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: It's a fair question. 627 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: I do want to talk about one reader email I 628 00:27:58,600 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: got this week. 629 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: Oh my god, great, this is. 630 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: Like the Money Stuff podcast nail bag section. 631 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, let me bring it up. 632 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 2: So there's this great story in the FT about renewable 633 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: investors and like d Shaw hiring sheep to mow the 634 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 2: lawns around their solar panels. And it's great because it's 635 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: just like it's this image of like these hedgehood investors 636 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 2: and like the way they hire the sheep. Apparently is 637 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: often that a solar array is being built in some 638 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 2: rural area and a farmer, a neighboring farmer, kind of 639 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 2: wanders over and says, hey, could you use any sheep? 640 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: And I thought that was so funny, and I wrote 641 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 2: that the first scene of my Cormick McCarthy influenced finance 642 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: novel would involve a hedge fund manager leaning against the fence, 643 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: chewing on a piece of straw, and a neighboring farmer 644 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: wandering over to talk about sheep. So a reader asked 645 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: the Gemini AI model to write that scene and sent 646 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: it to me, and I'm going to read it to you. 647 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: He shimmered off the desolate, distorting the rows of glass 648 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 2: panels into an alien mirage. Matt Levine, a hedge fund 649 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: refugee transplanted to this forgotten corner of North Carolina, leaned 650 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 2: against the rusting perimeter fence. His city suit, once a 651 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: symbol of power and prestige now hung on him like 652 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: a molting carapace, ill suited to the unforgiving sun. A 653 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: plume of dust announced the arrival of Silas, the neighboring farmer. 654 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: His weathered face etched with the harsh lines of a 655 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: life spent wrestling with the land, held a deep well 656 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: of suspicion. Silas stopped a good distance away, the silence 657 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: thick between them. Finally he spoke. His voice, a dry 658 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 2: rasp carried on the hot wind. Heard you needed your 659 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: fancy heater contraptions mode. Silas gestured towards the panels with 660 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: a gnarled hand. Sheep got restless with all that shade 661 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 2: blocking their usual path. It ends there, but I feel 662 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: like you get the sense of it. 663 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was hoping he was getting going. 664 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well someone's got to write it. This person 665 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: told me that he didn't ask Gemini to name the 666 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: headphone character Matt Levine, not. 667 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: Just it just it felt right. Yeah, I love it. 668 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: I feel like we should keep going on this. I 669 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of the. 670 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: Podcast doesn't work out, then then we'll collaborate on the novel. Maybe. 671 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: God, your readers are fun. That is a lot, and 672 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: that was unprompted. 673 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 2: I mean he prompted Gemini. 674 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: I know he didn't write all of them. You didn't say, hey, 675 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: intrepid reader, do this for me. No, Yeah, that's what 676 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying. 677 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: No, I've got a lot of like people being like 678 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: I asked GPT to write like you, and this is 679 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: what it produced. And I'm always like, still safe. But 680 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: one day like GPP seven will just you know, just 681 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: do the job. 682 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: But they can't do a. 683 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: Podcast, I'll be reduced to podcasting. There we go, And 684 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: that was the Money Stuff Podcast. 685 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: I'm Matt Levin and I'm Katie Greifeld. 686 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: You can find my work by subscribing to the Money 687 00:30:58,640 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: Stuff newsletter. 688 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg dot and you can find me on Bloomberg 689 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: TV every day between ten and eleven am Eastern. 690 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 691 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: email to Moneypod at Bloomberg dot net, ask us a question, 692 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: or write us a short story, and we might answer 693 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: it or quote it on air. 694 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 695 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 696 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: people find the show. 697 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Maserakus and Moses. 698 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: Andm Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples. 699 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: Brendan Francis Neonan is our executive producer. 700 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: And Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 701 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Money Stuff podcast. We'll be 702 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: back next week with more stuff