WEBVTT - #395 Jason Flom with Sullivan Walter 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.000 On the night of May ninth, nineteen eighty six, a 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.240 young mother was showering when a masked, knife wielding man 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.760 snuck into her Garden District apartment in New Orleans. When 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.080 he attacked her in the bathroom, he threatened that he'd 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.639 hurt her eight year old son if she didn't cooperate. 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.479 Moving to a bedroom, he put a t shirt over 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.560 her head, forced her to perform oral sex, and raped 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.680 her twice. Plenty of seminal fluid was collected in a rapekit, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.080 as well as her undergarments, but this was before the 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:33.440 era of DNA testing. Additionally, the assailant's blood type could 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.320 not be detected, so the investigation hinged on her limited 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.279 description and a composite sketch. Six weeks later, seventeen year 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.400 old Sullivan Walter was arrested for an unrelated burglary. While 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.360 he was in custody, one officer felt that Sullivan was 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.520 a match for the composite sketch of the rapist. Upon 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:57.480 viewing his photo, the victim agreed, but this is wrongful conviction. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.720 Welcome back to wronful conviction. Today we're speaking to a 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.840 man who is a child when he was wrongfully convicted, 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.800 and his case is a perfect example of how solid 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.280 proof of innocence can fail at setting an innocent person free. 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.520 And that's exactly what happened two years after Sulown Walter's conviction, 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:30.120 but yet he spent over thirty four more years in 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.880 Louisiana corrections. Sullivan, I'm honored to have you here with us, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.039 even though I hate the reason why you're here. But 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.840 welcome to the show, yes, sir, and joining him is 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.680 the legal director of Innocence Project New Orleans, otherwise known 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:50.200 as IPNO, a great organization that deserves your support. Richard Davis, 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.600 thank you for being here and welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:54.280 Thank you. 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.600 So all of this took place in New Orleans, which, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:02.160 under the DA that oversaw this caseous DA Harry Connock Senior, 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.280 New Orleans became the most incarcerated city and the most 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.920 incarcerated state in the most incarcerated country in the world, 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.520 probably in the history of the world. And so, knowing 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.919 that the story you're about to hear, unfortunately will come 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.920 as no surprise. And Sullivan, you grew up in New Orleans, right. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.200 Yes, I grew up in the city of New Orleans. 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.480 My mother was the mother of eleven the tenth of 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.400 eleven children. My mother had kids in a previous marriage, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.919 and some of the kids were being raised by their father, 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:36.120 and my mother and my father separated when I was 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.040 very young. My mother raised me and my younger sister 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.880 and my brother right over me as a single parent. 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.320 I didn't do well in school. I would find ways 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.240 to get out of school and just hang around in 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.200 the neighborhood. I grew up in a high crime area. 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.360 You know, I just found myself having more of a 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.160 family in the streets than what I actually had at home. 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.560 My family didn't have much, so you know, I found 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.760 myself resulting to you know, criminal activities. You know, I 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.640 mean nothing major, but just in order to you know, 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.200 have some money in my pocket or pair of shoes, 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.480 pear of pants or something, just to try and make 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:14.560 up where you know, my mother wasn't able to. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.000 And so you had at least been processed for that 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.240 behavior and your fingerprints were on file, et cetera. And 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.080 so that brings us to the summer of nineteen eighty six, 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.000 when you had just turned seventeen. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.440 Yeah, I was arrested for burglary and it occurred on 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.160 Laurel Street, laure and or Millia. I mean it's uptown 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:40.240 New Orleans. And it was basically just household items, stereo equipment, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.119 small stuff, you know, cameras, something like that. The burglary 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.520 occurred on a Saturday. I was arrested Monday morning. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:48.760 Do you know how they honed in on you? 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.600 Yeah? I was picked up because there were a window 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.920 pane that my fingerprint was actually found on. And while 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.160 in police custody, you know, that's what led to me 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.080 being I was with a cram that I had nothing 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:02.440 to do. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.360 With, right, And this burglary happened on June twenty first, 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.400 nineteen eighty six. When the police got you the rape 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:14.040 person on Monday morning, June twenty third, But then somehow 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.560 signals got crossed, lanes were switched, and you ended up 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.800 spending thirty six years in prison, now for the burglary, 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.640 but for a rape that occurred about six weeks earlier, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.239 on May ninth, nineteen eighty six, in the Garden District 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.280 neighborhood of New Orleans. Richard, can you fill us in 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:30.440 on what happened that night? 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.200 So on the night of May the ninth, May tenth, 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.000 nineteen eighty six, a woman was cleaning her home. The 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.920 only other person in her home was her young zan, 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.159 who was sleep. She was showering after doing some cleaning 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.320 and was disturbed by someone breaking in, and that person 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.440 attacked and raped her. At all times during the rape, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.040 the person either was covering their face, or the lights 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.719 were off, or they were threatening the victim of knife 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.680 point not to look at him. And so while it 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.520 was a fairly traumatic experience for her, it was one 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.800 in which I was actually a limited opportunity to observe 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:03.960 the person who attacked her. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.360 Right, And as I've read, not only did the assailant 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.359 have half of his face covered by a washcloth, but 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.039 then after dragging her out of the shower, it's like 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.640 a horror scene, he put a t shirt over her 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.960 head and he threatened her at knife point to collaborate 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.200 or he would hurt her eight year old son. Then 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.960 he took her into a bedroom where he forced her 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.000 to perform oral sex and then vaginally raped her twice. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.919 It's just it's awful. But despite both of their base coverings, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.920 she was able to tell the police some detailed right. 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.000 Yeah, So the victim described it as a young assailant. 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.680 She fo eighteen to twenty years old, five to eleven, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.520 slender with thick eyebrows and a Jerry curl, the reports 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:46.560 of a night of crimes which she said the attacker 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.919 had stubble, But there are two different police documents showing 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:51.880 she told two different offices on the night of crime 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.400 that it was an assailant with like two to three 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.000 days beard growth. And then there was a composite sketch 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.479 he did a few days after for crime with police 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:01.239 sketch artist. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.280 Okay, so either some stubble or two to three days growth, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.320 but facial hair growth varies, so these descriptions could mean 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.040 the same thing depending on who you're talking to. And 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.200 then the victim said that the assailant was wearing a 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:16.080 baseball cap. 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.960 Yes, and she described it as a blue baseball cat, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:20.600 but nothing else distinctive about it. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.719 So, Sulliban, how did you compare to this description? 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.159 I am, in fact five to eleven. I was very then. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.960 I didn't have a Jerry curl. As far as facial hairs, 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.839 prior to my arrest, I had never grown facial hairs. 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.520 Right for a seventeen year old, that's not surprising. 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:39.640 Yeah, I had just turned seventeen. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.880 So even though your age heights get into an end 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.400 build were similar, your lack of facial hero at the 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.640 very least not having a Jerry Curl should have ruled 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.040 you out or cast at least serious doubt on this, 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.760 but clearly it did not. Now, six weeks passed after 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.360 the rape, before you became a suspect. Did the investigators 0:06:58.400 --> 0:06:59.920 have any other leads during that time? 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.840 There are some indications in the officer's notes they may 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.640 have had other suspects, but we are never able to 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.400 figure out what those notes meant for sure. From his 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:09.840 interviews with the victim, he come to believe it was 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.560 an experienced perpetrator. There was also some indication that someone 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.040 who seemed to match for description or for complete sketch 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.800 had been loitering around the area of the crime beforehand. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.680 But the composite wasn't all they had to go on, right, 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.160 this was a rape, So what about the physical evidence? 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:26.840 There was a lot of it. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.440 The perpetrator was ejaculated twice during the rape, and so 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.920 this was, you know, a good scene for forensic evidence. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.160 They did for normal sexual assault exam and also collected 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.080 the undergarments for the victim had worn after the crime, 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.960 and based on the victim's sexual history, any product detected 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.240 was coming from the perpetrator, and so the items were 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.080 quickly tested by the police department. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.520 Grant that this was nineteen eighty six, so they were 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.320 only working with sorology in not DNA, and if understand 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.080 this correctly, the undergarments were tested by Harry O'Neill, a 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.800 criminalist working with NOPD the Orleans Police Department, while Patricia 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.240 Daniels with the Cornor's Office tested the rape. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.440 Kit, so he's a two separate test, but they're both 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.800 coming to the same conclusion, which is they cannot detect 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.200 any blood type activity in the seminal stains and spumtazoa 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:17.520 found on the evidence. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.680 So with zerology there are really only two ways to 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.240 narrow down a field of suspects. Blood typing like ab 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.440 AB and O and then secretor status, which refers to 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.400 whether or not your blood type shows up in other 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.480 bodily fluids like semen or saliva. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.760 The majority of the population secretes their blood type into 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.840 our bodily fluids, but some percentage of the population doesn't. 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.559 And value from these two different tests and not finding 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.680 any indication of blood type being secreted into the bodily 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:46.000 fluids of perpetrata. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.280 So the assailant was among the twenty percent of the 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.880 population who are non secretors, which unfortunately is quite convenient 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.800 for the assailant, but secretor status still offers a way 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.920 to narrow a field of suspects, if only to the 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.199 exclusion of eighty percent of the population. So this was 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:06.679 all the police had to go on, along with a 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.319 composite sketch from a victim who really didn't get a 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.360 great look at her assailant. So how did they land 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:13.080 on Sullivan? 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.480 Officially, what happened in the investigation is six weeks after 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.840 a crime. As the police tell it, an officer working 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.160 in the burglary case was doing a fingerprint check Sullivan 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.160 from the burglary case saw his photo, thought, gosh, this 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.719 guy looks a lot like this composite sketch. Even though 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.120 he doesn't look that much like the composite sketch, we 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.760 should probably consider him a suspective his untold rape we've 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.079 had from six weeks earlier, and so an officer in 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.760 the print unit supposedly coming up with his reka moment. 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.400 This is the basis by which the detective from the 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.000 rape case goes back to the victim with a photo 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:47.600 of Sullivan. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.640 So this composite sketch didn't really look like Solovon, yet 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.240 their focus still landed on him. Sullivan, how do you 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:56.840 remember this all going down? 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:01.160 Well, the burglary, I was being about it. They wanted 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.760 to know what the property was, They wanted to know 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.040 if there was someone else involved, and when I didn't cooperate, well, 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.480 ultimately I was threatened that if I didn't cooperate and 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.439 if I didn't tell them what they wanted to know, 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.160 then they would see to it that I was given 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.720 a life sentence. I mean, they didn't mention the crime 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.800 that I would be punished with. They didn't question about 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.920 a rape, you know, so they played good cop, bad 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.920 cop and threatened me. You know, I didn't have an 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:32.080 adult present, I didn't have an attorney present, and they 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.880 had me to take poto Rod pictures a certain way 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.199 with a baseball cap on turned to the back. And 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.760 I had no knowledge that this was the actual description 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.520 that was given of the perpetrator of the rape charge 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.520 that I would later be charged with. 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.160 So, after he has been booked on the Burger, and 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.199 they've taken these photos. The detective go see the victim 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:59.439 with a photo array and the photos they've taken. We 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.880 don't have recording of this procedure. It's a cross racial 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.640 identification procedure. Is also being administered by the detective who 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.679 knows how the suspect is, which you know now you 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.600 would have to do an identification double blind, even without 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.280 any deliberate malfeasance if a person knows who the suspects 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.959 had influences for witness making a description and Howard is 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.920 described later and again we have no recording. Is for 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.120 the victim views a photo array, picks out Sullivan in 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.240 some form and is then shown I believe, polaroids of 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.640 Sullivan in the hat, which kind of reinforces the identification 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.240 as a kind of like well, and he wore his 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.280 hat like this too, So at the end of his 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:42.800 identification procedure, the victim is making an identification of Sullivan. 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.600 So we have no idea what kind of suggestions were 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.559 being made to the victim. And then add to that 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.840 the toxic fact that it was cross racial, which study 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:58.800 after study has proven is less accurate than guessing. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.640 This is one of the challenging things about the cases. 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.680 We do not have the photo oray he was identified from, 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.800 and we don't even know with any certainty what photo 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.640 of they had of Sullivan and raided alone, who were fulfillers, 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.040 and if they looked anything like him or not. We 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.599 don't have the photo lineup, so we don't actually. 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.360 Know, so Jerry Curl's in facial hair or not. They 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.120 got their cross racial misidentification while Sullivan was already being 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.079 held on the burglary charge. Now, Sullivan, when did you 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:27.800 find out about the rape charge? 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.480 After being charged with a burglary while in Central Laga? 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.880 Either the following day or day after that, I was 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:40.199 taken back down and I was charged with another burglary, 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.719 a rape, two council crime against nature, which was all 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:45.600 one case, and this was the rape charge. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.000 And after finding out a bit more about this charge, 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:49.920 were you able to remember where you were at on 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:50.560 May ninth? 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.560 I mean, I was arrested six weeks after this rapehead occurred. 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.679 So how would be lying if I said, well, I 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.280 was here, I was there six weeks ago. I don't 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.199 know where I was at six weeks ago. 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.440 And you're barely seventeen, So it's not like you had 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.280 a daily planner or like a you know, a calendar 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.400 like we all have on our phones now these days, 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.520 So you weren't sure where you were on that day, 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.880 but it certainly wasn't the garden district. Did they try 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.760 to corroborate the identification with the physical evidence. 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.960 So they took blood and saliva from Sullivan pre trial apparently, 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.559 so charge first, do the science later, and according to 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.240 report of a time, they somehow fouled for sample so 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.440 badly they didn't even detect Sullivan's blood type, so at 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.600 a time of trial they didn't know his blood type, 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.679 let alone whether he's a secretor or not. And then 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.920 at the eleventh hour, right before trial, they disclose this 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.679 evidence of the perpetrator was a non secretor. But the 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.240 case goes ahead to trial anyway. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.679 So at this point the prosecution didn't get a second 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.559 sample from Sullivan to be sure that they had the 0:13:58.640 --> 0:13:59.160 right person. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.880 But also law says the state needs to give stuff 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.800 to defense in enough time for them to be able 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:04.360 to use it. 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.599 So what's the answer to the million dollar question? I 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.120 think I can actually predict this, but go ahead. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.800 My blood type is B and I am a secretor. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.240 So it was fully impossible that you could have committed 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:18.800 this crime. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.360 As far as we can tell, no one knows all 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.040 of a secreteors state us. At this time, they just 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.280 plowed ahead with the trial. And I think you've got 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.600 a wonder do you in fact not want a scientific 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.480 answer because it might contradict your witness. 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.520 Nevertheless, the trial began and ended on the same day, 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:44.640 December two, nineteen eighty six. The NOPDS criminalist O'Neil unwittingly 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:49.000 testified to your innocence at trial that the assailant was 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.680 a non secretor, but no one cared to discover, let 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:58.120 alone make the jury aware of your secretor status. Makes 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.160 sense for the prosecutor. They already ad an identification from 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:02.760 the victim. After all, she. 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.200 Got understand and they asked us some questions about the 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.840 crime and asked us did she see the perpetrate on 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.240 the court. She said that I was the perpetrate at 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:11.960 the crime. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.560 And without knowing your secretor status or your whereabouts on 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.320 May nineteen eighty six, this was probably an easy decision 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:19.960 for the jury. 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.560 I mean I was in and out of trial within 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.560 an hour or so. I mean the state presented the 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:30.480 physical evidence, they presented, the expert witnesses, they presented the victim. 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.160 It was never any day presented on my behalf and 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:37.000 I was found guilty. 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.160 And then you were sentenced to thirty five years in prison. 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:46.040 I mean, it was so disturbing to me. My family 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.160 was unable to help me. I had nobody to come 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:55.440 and give me advice. I was seventeen, so I couldn't 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.520 began to try and figure this out, understand this. I 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.200 didn't think that this could happen to me. I didn't 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.840 think it could happen to anybody. It was like, man, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:07.600 this can't be real. 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.080 This episode is sponsored by Marsha mccleanan, the world's leading 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.880 professional services firm in the areas of risk, strategy and people. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.920 It's legal and compliance department provides pro bono legal assistance 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:33.320 and other support to underrepresentative communities and individuals. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.800 After being convicted. To have to go to prison for 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.280 a rape crime, you know, this is one of the 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.880 most degrading crimes that a man could be charged with 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.960 in prison, other than child molestation. You're an outcast, I mean, 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.920 you don't have friends. You're pervert, however they want to 0:16:56.000 --> 0:17:00.520 describe you. Then that's what it is. So this he 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.520 has a real effect on a seventeen at eighteen year 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.280 old because now you got to try to find ways 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:13.680 to protect yourself. And you know, my only host was, man, 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.879 this is gonna be fixed. And then my lord, he 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.560 tells me we're gonna be able to get you out 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.240 of here. I'm gonna get you out of here. I'm 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.600 gonna test you and we're gonna present your blood results, 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.680 and I'm gonna get you out of here. So that's 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.200 all I was hoping for, my dear court. 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.280 So that's an initial appeal after the trial, which the 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.600 sole issue he lawyer raises in the only files of 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.600 three and a half page brief is that he got 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.359 the blood typing report too late to be able to 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.840 use it. The court tends it back with an instruction, 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:45.440 but you need we need to figure out this guy's 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.800 blood type and figure out if he was prejudiced by 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:52.359 the late disclosure of the perpetrator's blood typing information, because obviously, 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.240 if it was a match, puss out, it's kind of 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.240 a no harm, no foul, It didn't hurt him. But 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.399 if it doesn't match him, then it's terrible. But the 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.000 prosecutor waits hill the morning of it's too late to 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.920 use it to tell him this information. So then in 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.639 January nineteen eighty eight they confirm that he is a 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.080 type BEE and that he secretes his blood type into 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:12.000 his body fluids. 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:17.080 So therefore I was the total opposite of what the 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.560 state head actually identify in open call. You can determine 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.960 my blood type, dom salavo do my seminal fluid. I 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:26.879 am a SECRETA. 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.160 And so this then goes to a hearing of promotion 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.960 for a new trial to determine well, we've now shown 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.399 that sal has been prejudiced by this late disclosure because 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.119 his blood type doesn't match. And so this goes to 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.119 a hearing in nineteen eighty eight, and at this point 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.760 the analyst who had said a trial, well, the evidence 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.360 indicates it was a non secretor suddenly is now saying, well, 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.520 I don't know, maybe like I missed for stain and 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.360 was testing something else. I can't really say anything about 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.439 whether the person was a creator or not. Now there 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.879 has been zero change in the evidence between when a 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.520 trial he says the evidence indicates non secretor and here 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.760 two years later when he's in court saying well, I 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.480 can't really say anything about this. If he had a 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.440 genuine concern about his prior testing, has nothing to stop 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.560 him from having retested the evidence. Then the only thing 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.359 that has changed is but now it doesn't help the 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.960 prosecution for it to be non secretor, because we know 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.399 that Sullivan is a secretor, And so the defense lawyer 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.760 doesn't ask him any questions about his prior testimony from 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:31.280 the trial, and doesn't present any evidence, and then doesn't 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.040 call any expert of his own, and at the end 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.120 of this for court waits for a while and then 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.200 with no real explanation, says that Sullivan isn't entitled to 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:40.960 a new trial. 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.120 At this point, Sullivan was entitled to an appointed lawyer 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.639 for the appeal of that decision, but that lawyer simply 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.920 did not follow through For four years. There was no communication, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:56.800 sharing of documents or strategy, nothing. And then when the 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.840 Court of Appeals recognized the dereliction and appointed a new lawyer, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.679 it took two more long years before the motion appeared 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.800 before the court, this time filed on behalf of Walter Sullivan, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:12.600 not Sullivan. Walter so already off to a just a 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.560 great start, right, I mean, I hope you sounded like 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.400 I was dripping with sarcasm, because I was. And another 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.639 denial came in September of ninety five. But in ninety 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.160 seven the Louisiana Supreme Court agreed that the Appeals Court 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.879 had been using the wrong legal standard, as if this 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.119 new evidence had just been found from a neutral source, 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.600 rather than that this was a late disclosure by the state, 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.800 which constituted a material Brady violation. 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.639 The Court of Appeals been told by the Louisiana Supreme Court, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.280 you've got to analyze this under the rules for non 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.399 disclosure rather than just evidence found from a neutral source. 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.320 The Court of Appeals does actually get the legal standard 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:52.320 wrong a second time. 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.320 This time they based their denial on O'Neill's altered testimony 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:58.920 from the motion for a new trial rather than his 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.840 trial testimony. That the assailant was, unlike Sullivan, a non secretor. 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.320 And then after this ruling, the court appointed lawyer doesn't 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.560 take further appeal to really easy on the Supreme Court 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.240 or any kind of a federal court. And so this 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.000 is it for Sullivan in terms of getting lawyers provided 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:15.560 by the state. 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.240 And I mean, do we have this wrong? Nothing was 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.160