1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: On the night of May ninth, nineteen eighty six, a 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: young mother was showering when a masked, knife wielding man 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: snuck into her Garden District apartment in New Orleans. When 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: he attacked her in the bathroom, he threatened that he'd 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: hurt her eight year old son if she didn't cooperate. 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: Moving to a bedroom, he put a t shirt over 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: her head, forced her to perform oral sex, and raped 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: her twice. Plenty of seminal fluid was collected in a rapekit, 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: as well as her undergarments, but this was before the 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: era of DNA testing. Additionally, the assailant's blood type could 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: not be detected, so the investigation hinged on her limited 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: description and a composite sketch. Six weeks later, seventeen year 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: old Sullivan Walter was arrested for an unrelated burglary. While 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: he was in custody, one officer felt that Sullivan was 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: a match for the composite sketch of the rapist. Upon 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: viewing his photo, the victim agreed, but this is wrongful conviction. 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wronful conviction. Today we're speaking to a 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: man who is a child when he was wrongfully convicted, 19 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: and his case is a perfect example of how solid 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: proof of innocence can fail at setting an innocent person free. 21 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened two years after Sulown Walter's conviction, 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: but yet he spent over thirty four more years in 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Louisiana corrections. Sullivan, I'm honored to have you here with us, 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: even though I hate the reason why you're here. But 25 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: welcome to the show, yes, sir, and joining him is 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: the legal director of Innocence Project New Orleans, otherwise known 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: as IPNO, a great organization that deserves your support. Richard Davis, 28 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: thank you for being here and welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: Thank you. 30 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: So all of this took place in New Orleans, which, 31 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: under the DA that oversaw this caseous DA Harry Connock Senior, 32 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: New Orleans became the most incarcerated city and the most 33 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: incarcerated state in the most incarcerated country in the world, 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: probably in the history of the world. And so, knowing 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: that the story you're about to hear, unfortunately will come 36 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: as no surprise. And Sullivan, you grew up in New Orleans, right. 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 3: Yes, I grew up in the city of New Orleans. 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 3: My mother was the mother of eleven the tenth of 39 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 3: eleven children. My mother had kids in a previous marriage, 40 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 3: and some of the kids were being raised by their father, 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 3: and my mother and my father separated when I was 42 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: very young. My mother raised me and my younger sister 43 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: and my brother right over me as a single parent. 44 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: I didn't do well in school. I would find ways 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 3: to get out of school and just hang around in 46 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 3: the neighborhood. I grew up in a high crime area. 47 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: You know, I just found myself having more of a 48 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: family in the streets than what I actually had at home. 49 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: My family didn't have much, so you know, I found 50 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 3: myself resulting to you know, criminal activities. You know, I 51 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 3: mean nothing major, but just in order to you know, 52 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 3: have some money in my pocket or pair of shoes, 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: pear of pants or something, just to try and make 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: up where you know, my mother wasn't able to. 55 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: And so you had at least been processed for that 56 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: behavior and your fingerprints were on file, et cetera. And 57 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: so that brings us to the summer of nineteen eighty six, 58 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: when you had just turned seventeen. 59 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was arrested for burglary and it occurred on 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: Laurel Street, laure and or Millia. I mean it's uptown 61 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: New Orleans. And it was basically just household items, stereo equipment, 62 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 3: small stuff, you know, cameras, something like that. The burglary 63 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: occurred on a Saturday. I was arrested Monday morning. 64 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: Do you know how they honed in on you? 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? I was picked up because there were a window 66 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: pane that my fingerprint was actually found on. And while 67 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: in police custody, you know, that's what led to me 68 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: being I was with a cram that I had nothing 69 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: to do. 70 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: With, right, And this burglary happened on June twenty first, 71 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. When the police got you the rape 72 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: person on Monday morning, June twenty third, But then somehow 73 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: signals got crossed, lanes were switched, and you ended up 74 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: spending thirty six years in prison, now for the burglary, 75 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: but for a rape that occurred about six weeks earlier, 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,239 Speaker 1: on May ninth, nineteen eighty six, in the Garden District 77 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: neighborhood of New Orleans. Richard, can you fill us in 78 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: on what happened that night? 79 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: So on the night of May the ninth, May tenth, 80 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, a woman was cleaning her home. The 81 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 2: only other person in her home was her young zan, 82 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: who was sleep. She was showering after doing some cleaning 83 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: and was disturbed by someone breaking in, and that person 84 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: attacked and raped her. At all times during the rape, 85 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: the person either was covering their face, or the lights 86 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 2: were off, or they were threatening the victim of knife 87 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: point not to look at him. And so while it 88 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: was a fairly traumatic experience for her, it was one 89 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: in which I was actually a limited opportunity to observe 90 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: the person who attacked her. 91 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: Right, And as I've read, not only did the assailant 92 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: have half of his face covered by a washcloth, but 93 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: then after dragging her out of the shower, it's like 94 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: a horror scene, he put a t shirt over her 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: head and he threatened her at knife point to collaborate 96 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: or he would hurt her eight year old son. Then 97 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: he took her into a bedroom where he forced her 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: to perform oral sex and then vaginally raped her twice. 99 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: It's just it's awful. But despite both of their base coverings, 100 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: she was able to tell the police some detailed right. 101 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the victim described it as a young assailant. 102 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: She fo eighteen to twenty years old, five to eleven, 103 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: slender with thick eyebrows and a Jerry curl, the reports 104 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: of a night of crimes which she said the attacker 105 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 2: had stubble, But there are two different police documents showing 106 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: she told two different offices on the night of crime 107 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: that it was an assailant with like two to three 108 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: days beard growth. And then there was a composite sketch 109 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: he did a few days after for crime with police 110 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 2: sketch artist. 111 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so either some stubble or two to three days growth, 112 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: but facial hair growth varies, so these descriptions could mean 113 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: the same thing depending on who you're talking to. And 114 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: then the victim said that the assailant was wearing a 115 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: baseball cap. 116 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and she described it as a blue baseball cat, 117 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 2: but nothing else distinctive about it. 118 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: So, Sulliban, how did you compare to this description? 119 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 3: I am, in fact five to eleven. I was very then. 120 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: I didn't have a Jerry curl. As far as facial hairs, 121 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 3: prior to my arrest, I had never grown facial hairs. 122 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Right for a seventeen year old, that's not surprising. 123 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had just turned seventeen. 124 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: So even though your age heights get into an end 125 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: build were similar, your lack of facial hero at the 126 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: very least not having a Jerry Curl should have ruled 127 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: you out or cast at least serious doubt on this, 128 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: but clearly it did not. Now, six weeks passed after 129 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: the rape, before you became a suspect. Did the investigators 130 00:06:58,400 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: have any other leads during that time? 131 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 2: There are some indications in the officer's notes they may 132 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: have had other suspects, but we are never able to 133 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: figure out what those notes meant for sure. From his 134 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: interviews with the victim, he come to believe it was 135 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: an experienced perpetrator. There was also some indication that someone 136 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: who seemed to match for description or for complete sketch 137 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: had been loitering around the area of the crime beforehand. 138 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: But the composite wasn't all they had to go on, right, 139 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: this was a rape, So what about the physical evidence? 140 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: There was a lot of it. 141 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: The perpetrator was ejaculated twice during the rape, and so 142 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: this was, you know, a good scene for forensic evidence. 143 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: They did for normal sexual assault exam and also collected 144 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: the undergarments for the victim had worn after the crime, 145 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: and based on the victim's sexual history, any product detected 146 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: was coming from the perpetrator, and so the items were 147 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: quickly tested by the police department. 148 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: Grant that this was nineteen eighty six, so they were 149 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: only working with sorology in not DNA, and if understand 150 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: this correctly, the undergarments were tested by Harry O'Neill, a 151 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: criminalist working with NOPD the Orleans Police Department, while Patricia 152 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: Daniels with the Cornor's Office tested the rape. 153 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: Kit, so he's a two separate test, but they're both 154 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: coming to the same conclusion, which is they cannot detect 155 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: any blood type activity in the seminal stains and spumtazoa 156 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: found on the evidence. 157 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: So with zerology there are really only two ways to 158 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: narrow down a field of suspects. Blood typing like ab 159 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: AB and O and then secretor status, which refers to 160 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: whether or not your blood type shows up in other 161 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: bodily fluids like semen or saliva. 162 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: The majority of the population secretes their blood type into 163 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: our bodily fluids, but some percentage of the population doesn't. 164 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: And value from these two different tests and not finding 165 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 2: any indication of blood type being secreted into the bodily 166 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: fluids of perpetrata. 167 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: So the assailant was among the twenty percent of the 168 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: population who are non secretors, which unfortunately is quite convenient 169 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: for the assailant, but secretor status still offers a way 170 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: to narrow a field of suspects, if only to the 171 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: exclusion of eighty percent of the population. So this was 172 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: all the police had to go on, along with a 173 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: composite sketch from a victim who really didn't get a 174 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: great look at her assailant. So how did they land 175 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: on Sullivan? 176 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 2: Officially, what happened in the investigation is six weeks after 177 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: a crime. As the police tell it, an officer working 178 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: in the burglary case was doing a fingerprint check Sullivan 179 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: from the burglary case saw his photo, thought, gosh, this 180 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 2: guy looks a lot like this composite sketch. Even though 181 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: he doesn't look that much like the composite sketch, we 182 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: should probably consider him a suspective his untold rape we've 183 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 2: had from six weeks earlier, and so an officer in 184 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: the print unit supposedly coming up with his reka moment. 185 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: This is the basis by which the detective from the 186 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: rape case goes back to the victim with a photo 187 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: of Sullivan. 188 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: So this composite sketch didn't really look like Solovon, yet 189 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: their focus still landed on him. Sullivan, how do you 190 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: remember this all going down? 191 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: Well, the burglary, I was being about it. They wanted 192 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 3: to know what the property was, They wanted to know 193 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: if there was someone else involved, and when I didn't cooperate, well, 194 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: ultimately I was threatened that if I didn't cooperate and 195 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 3: if I didn't tell them what they wanted to know, 196 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: then they would see to it that I was given 197 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 3: a life sentence. I mean, they didn't mention the crime 198 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: that I would be punished with. They didn't question about 199 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: a rape, you know, so they played good cop, bad 200 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: cop and threatened me. You know, I didn't have an 201 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 3: adult present, I didn't have an attorney present, and they 202 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: had me to take poto Rod pictures a certain way 203 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 3: with a baseball cap on turned to the back. And 204 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 3: I had no knowledge that this was the actual description 205 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: that was given of the perpetrator of the rape charge 206 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 3: that I would later be charged with. 207 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: So, after he has been booked on the Burger, and 208 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 2: they've taken these photos. The detective go see the victim 209 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 2: with a photo array and the photos they've taken. We 210 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: don't have recording of this procedure. It's a cross racial 211 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: identification procedure. Is also being administered by the detective who 212 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: knows how the suspect is, which you know now you 213 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: would have to do an identification double blind, even without 214 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: any deliberate malfeasance if a person knows who the suspects 215 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 2: had influences for witness making a description and Howard is 216 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: described later and again we have no recording. Is for 217 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: the victim views a photo array, picks out Sullivan in 218 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: some form and is then shown I believe, polaroids of 219 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: Sullivan in the hat, which kind of reinforces the identification 220 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: as a kind of like well, and he wore his 221 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: hat like this too, So at the end of his 222 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: identification procedure, the victim is making an identification of Sullivan. 223 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: So we have no idea what kind of suggestions were 224 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: being made to the victim. And then add to that 225 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: the toxic fact that it was cross racial, which study 226 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: after study has proven is less accurate than guessing. 227 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: This is one of the challenging things about the cases. 228 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: We do not have the photo oray he was identified from, 229 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: and we don't even know with any certainty what photo 230 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: of they had of Sullivan and raided alone, who were fulfillers, 231 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: and if they looked anything like him or not. We 232 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 2: don't have the photo lineup, so we don't actually. 233 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: Know, so Jerry Curl's in facial hair or not. They 234 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: got their cross racial misidentification while Sullivan was already being 235 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: held on the burglary charge. Now, Sullivan, when did you 236 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: find out about the rape charge? 237 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: After being charged with a burglary while in Central Laga? 238 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: Either the following day or day after that, I was 239 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 3: taken back down and I was charged with another burglary, 240 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 3: a rape, two council crime against nature, which was all 241 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 3: one case, and this was the rape charge. 242 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: And after finding out a bit more about this charge, 243 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: were you able to remember where you were at on 244 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: May ninth? 245 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I was arrested six weeks after this rapehead occurred. 246 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 3: So how would be lying if I said, well, I 247 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: was here, I was there six weeks ago. I don't 248 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 3: know where I was at six weeks ago. 249 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: And you're barely seventeen, So it's not like you had 250 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: a daily planner or like a you know, a calendar 251 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: like we all have on our phones now these days, 252 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: So you weren't sure where you were on that day, 253 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: but it certainly wasn't the garden district. Did they try 254 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: to corroborate the identification with the physical evidence. 255 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: So they took blood and saliva from Sullivan pre trial apparently, 256 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 2: so charge first, do the science later, and according to 257 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: report of a time, they somehow fouled for sample so 258 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: badly they didn't even detect Sullivan's blood type, so at 259 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: a time of trial they didn't know his blood type, 260 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: let alone whether he's a secretor or not. And then 261 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: at the eleventh hour, right before trial, they disclose this 262 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 2: evidence of the perpetrator was a non secretor. But the 263 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: case goes ahead to trial anyway. 264 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: So at this point the prosecution didn't get a second 265 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: sample from Sullivan to be sure that they had the 266 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: right person. 267 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: But also law says the state needs to give stuff 268 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: to defense in enough time for them to be able 269 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: to use it. 270 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,599 Speaker 1: So what's the answer to the million dollar question? I 271 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: think I can actually predict this, but go ahead. 272 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 3: My blood type is B and I am a secretor. 273 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: So it was fully impossible that you could have committed 274 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: this crime. 275 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: As far as we can tell, no one knows all 276 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: of a secreteors state us. At this time, they just 277 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: plowed ahead with the trial. And I think you've got 278 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: a wonder do you in fact not want a scientific 279 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: answer because it might contradict your witness. 280 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: Nevertheless, the trial began and ended on the same day, 281 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: December two, nineteen eighty six. The NOPDS criminalist O'Neil unwittingly 282 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: testified to your innocence at trial that the assailant was 283 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: a non secretor, but no one cared to discover, let 284 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: alone make the jury aware of your secretor status. Makes 285 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: sense for the prosecutor. They already ad an identification from 286 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: the victim. After all, she. 287 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: Got understand and they asked us some questions about the 288 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: crime and asked us did she see the perpetrate on 289 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: the court. She said that I was the perpetrate at 290 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 3: the crime. 291 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: And without knowing your secretor status or your whereabouts on 292 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: May nineteen eighty six, this was probably an easy decision 293 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: for the jury. 294 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: I mean I was in and out of trial within 295 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: an hour or so. I mean the state presented the 296 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 3: physical evidence, they presented, the expert witnesses, they presented the victim. 297 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: It was never any day presented on my behalf and 298 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: I was found guilty. 299 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: And then you were sentenced to thirty five years in prison. 300 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 3: I mean, it was so disturbing to me. My family 301 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 3: was unable to help me. I had nobody to come 302 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 3: and give me advice. I was seventeen, so I couldn't 303 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 3: began to try and figure this out, understand this. I 304 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: didn't think that this could happen to me. I didn't 305 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 3: think it could happen to anybody. It was like, man, 306 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: this can't be real. 307 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by Marsha mccleanan, the world's leading 308 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: professional services firm in the areas of risk, strategy and people. 309 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: It's legal and compliance department provides pro bono legal assistance 310 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: and other support to underrepresentative communities and individuals. 311 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 3: After being convicted. To have to go to prison for 312 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 3: a rape crime, you know, this is one of the 313 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: most degrading crimes that a man could be charged with 314 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: in prison, other than child molestation. You're an outcast, I mean, 315 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: you don't have friends. You're pervert, however they want to 316 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 3: describe you. Then that's what it is. So this he 317 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: has a real effect on a seventeen at eighteen year 318 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: old because now you got to try to find ways 319 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: to protect yourself. And you know, my only host was, man, 320 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 3: this is gonna be fixed. And then my lord, he 321 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 3: tells me we're gonna be able to get you out 322 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 3: of here. I'm gonna get you out of here. I'm 323 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: gonna test you and we're gonna present your blood results, 324 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 3: and I'm gonna get you out of here. So that's 325 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 3: all I was hoping for, my dear court. 326 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: So that's an initial appeal after the trial, which the 327 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: sole issue he lawyer raises in the only files of 328 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: three and a half page brief is that he got 329 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: the blood typing report too late to be able to 330 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: use it. The court tends it back with an instruction, 331 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: but you need we need to figure out this guy's 332 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: blood type and figure out if he was prejudiced by 333 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 2: the late disclosure of the perpetrator's blood typing information, because obviously, 334 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: if it was a match, puss out, it's kind of 335 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: a no harm, no foul, It didn't hurt him. But 336 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: if it doesn't match him, then it's terrible. But the 337 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: prosecutor waits hill the morning of it's too late to 338 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: use it to tell him this information. So then in 339 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: January nineteen eighty eight they confirm that he is a 340 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: type BEE and that he secretes his blood type into 341 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: his body fluids. 342 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: So therefore I was the total opposite of what the 343 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 3: state head actually identify in open call. You can determine 344 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: my blood type, dom salavo do my seminal fluid. I 345 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 3: am a SECRETA. 346 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 2: And so this then goes to a hearing of promotion 347 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: for a new trial to determine well, we've now shown 348 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: that sal has been prejudiced by this late disclosure because 349 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: his blood type doesn't match. And so this goes to 350 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: a hearing in nineteen eighty eight, and at this point 351 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: the analyst who had said a trial, well, the evidence 352 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 2: indicates it was a non secretor suddenly is now saying, well, 353 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe like I missed for stain and 354 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 2: was testing something else. I can't really say anything about 355 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: whether the person was a creator or not. Now there 356 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: has been zero change in the evidence between when a 357 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: trial he says the evidence indicates non secretor and here 358 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: two years later when he's in court saying well, I 359 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: can't really say anything about this. If he had a 360 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: genuine concern about his prior testing, has nothing to stop 361 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: him from having retested the evidence. Then the only thing 362 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: that has changed is but now it doesn't help the 363 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: prosecution for it to be non secretor, because we know 364 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 2: that Sullivan is a secretor, And so the defense lawyer 365 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: doesn't ask him any questions about his prior testimony from 366 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: the trial, and doesn't present any evidence, and then doesn't 367 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: call any expert of his own, and at the end 368 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 2: of this for court waits for a while and then 369 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 2: with no real explanation, says that Sullivan isn't entitled to 370 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: a new trial. 371 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: At this point, Sullivan was entitled to an appointed lawyer 372 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: for the appeal of that decision, but that lawyer simply 373 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: did not follow through For four years. There was no communication, 374 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: sharing of documents or strategy, nothing. And then when the 375 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals recognized the dereliction and appointed a new lawyer, 376 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: it took two more long years before the motion appeared 377 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: before the court, this time filed on behalf of Walter Sullivan, 378 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: not Sullivan. Walter so already off to a just a 379 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: great start, right, I mean, I hope you sounded like 380 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: I was dripping with sarcasm, because I was. And another 381 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: denial came in September of ninety five. But in ninety 382 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: seven the Louisiana Supreme Court agreed that the Appeals Court 383 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: had been using the wrong legal standard, as if this 384 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: new evidence had just been found from a neutral source, 385 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: rather than that this was a late disclosure by the state, 386 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: which constituted a material Brady violation. 387 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: The Court of Appeals been told by the Louisiana Supreme Court, 388 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: you've got to analyze this under the rules for non 389 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: disclosure rather than just evidence found from a neutral source. 390 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: The Court of Appeals does actually get the legal standard 391 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: wrong a second time. 392 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: This time they based their denial on O'Neill's altered testimony 393 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: from the motion for a new trial rather than his 394 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: trial testimony. That the assailant was, unlike Sullivan, a non secretor. 395 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: And then after this ruling, the court appointed lawyer doesn't 396 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: take further appeal to really easy on the Supreme Court 397 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 2: or any kind of a federal court. And so this 398 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 2: is it for Sullivan in terms of getting lawyers provided 399 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: by the state. 400 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: And I mean, do we have this wrong? Nothing was 401 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: filed again until twenty twenty one. 402 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: Between nineteen ninety seven and twenty twenty one, no one 403 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: is helping Sullivan. 404 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: Oh God, Sullivan, I mean you touch a quarter century. 405 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: I mean you talked about how hard it was for 406 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: you in prison, even when there was some hope for 407 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: you in post conviction. But that's a long, bleak stretch 408 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: of a lot of years. 409 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: As I just explained to you, being in prison as 410 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 3: a sex offender is not easy. It's not easy at all. 411 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: Not only the population, but you also have the officers 412 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: you have to deal with. And then you had the 413 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: work expect of prison. I mean they digging ditches and 414 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 3: picking and farm vegetables, stuff that I had never done 415 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 3: before in my life. So I didn't know anything about 416 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: none of this. So I stayed in and out of lockdown, 417 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 3: in and out of I'm locked up because I didn't 418 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 3: know how to do the work, and I'm trying to 419 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 3: adjust to this. And then my family, you know, every 420 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 3: now and then somebody else would come, but mostly it 421 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: was my older sister, my mother. Sadly to say, my 422 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: mother never visited me while I was in prison. And 423 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 3: then my sister dies and nobody's coming to see me. 424 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: It's hard, you know what I mean. I'm in prison 425 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 3: for years, years upon years. My biggest fear in prison 426 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 3: was that I didn't want to die in prison for 427 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 3: something I didn't do. So I'm trying to take care 428 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 3: of myself. I'm trying to stay healthy, and I'm trying 429 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 3: not to stress and worry. So I'm just there. I'm existing. 430 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: It's not living, you know, I didn't have a life. 431 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: I was just existing and I lost my father, I 432 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: lost my mother. Man, it was a time I actually 433 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 3: went over a decade and didn't get a visit. You know, 434 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 3: Nobody came to see me. Nobody tried to help me. 435 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 3: I didn't have the knowledge and education to, you know, 436 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 3: go about helping myself. And I don't really know how 437 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 3: I managed to do it, but I just believe that 438 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 3: God put it within me to subvive this situation. And 439 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 3: the only thing I could think about is not dying 440 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 3: in prison, getting out and someday trying to find a 441 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: way to prove my innocence because I mean, man, I 442 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 3: was young, I was on drugs, I was in the streets, 443 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: I was stealing. You know. One thing, I know, without 444 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: a doubt, I would have never raped in anybody. I 445 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: would have never committed a rate. I know that without 446 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: a doubt. And I just knew that, Man, somebody has 447 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 3: to help me. But it just seems as if it 448 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 3: wasn't gonna happen, because it went from ten years to 449 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 3: twenty years and then thirty years. 450 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: So Hypno was established and it's a project New Orleans 451 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one. Had you ever reached out 452 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: to them? 453 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 3: No, I had no knowledge of the inn some project 454 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 3: New Orleans. I knew nothing of them. I can remember 455 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 3: in two thy and nineteen, you know, they had started 456 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: the Kiosk machine. People get letters and stuff through the 457 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 3: Kiosk machine and do like man, because dudes used to 458 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 3: see man, I ain't never used to write nobody. I 459 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 3: never received mail nothing. I mean, so a friend of 460 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 3: mine had told me. The dud was like, man, you 461 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 3: need to set up the Kiosk machine because you can 462 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 3: get pictures of your family or you know, you can 463 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 3: get letters. And really, in my mind it's like, man, 464 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 3: ain't nobody gonna write me, Ain't nobody gonna send me 465 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 3: no pictures? So man, one morning, one morning I came 466 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: in from work and I looked at the Kioska. She 467 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 3: and I had a letter from mister Richard Davis, and 468 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 3: it was like, if you celeb reporters and you was 469 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: charged and convicted with a rape in nineteen eighty six 470 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: and all of his baish, you need to contact my 471 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 3: office immediately, you know, because it's how yes, you know 472 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: you've been subjected to an injustice, Richard. 473 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: Could you have ever imagined just one email from you 474 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: carried this much weight. 475 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: I wish we had a system where we didn't make 476 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: any kind of addition. I wish the system ever convicted him, 477 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: but I wish it we absolute minimum they dealt with 478 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: him in nineteen eighty eight, when I was five years 479 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: old and I'd never met him. I liked Sullivan a lot, 480 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: but I wish i'd never met him. I wish we 481 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: had a system that treated his life as important enough 482 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: that it was dealt with just like competently conscientious professionals. 483 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 2: Long before I was even doing this work about the 484 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 2: system people deserve, and it's not the system they have. 485 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I have to agree, and this case also could 486 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: have been resolved much sooner had Sullivan been sentenced differently 487 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: during this awful span of twenty four years nineteen eighty 488 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: seven to twenty twenty one. On the outside, the Supreme 489 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: Court made some landmark decisions regarding juvenile justice, which ruled 490 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: that mandatory life sentences and death sentences for children were 491 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: a violation of the Eighth Amendment ban on Cruel and 492 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: Unusual punishment. But unfortunately release since Sullivan was sent to 493 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: thirty five years instead of a life sentence, he didn't 494 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: qualify the benefit from these new rulings. But a kind 495 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: of much overdue confluence of positive developments did come along. 496 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: So how did his case eventually reach your desk? 497 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 3: Richard? 498 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 2: I had first read about Sullivan's case in I think 499 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 2: twenty eleven. I was just doing legal research on another 500 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: case about non disclosure of evidence, and I'd read the 501 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 2: opinion and he was not very technical. Asia, well, that's 502 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: bullshit that they upheld for conviction in this case. So 503 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: it's stuck in my head. And then ten years later 504 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: there was a change to the law, which meant that 505 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: I thought that was a way to represent the case potentially. 506 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: And then also the District Attorney's office had a civil 507 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: rights division, and I knew they're particularly interested in people 508 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 2: who had served over thirty five years in prison. So 509 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: I began gathering files on the case of a point 510 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: that I wrote to Sullivan. I just knew what was 511 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: in the court opinion, and so I just knew what 512 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: the police officer had said after it didn't suit them 513 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: for Sullivan to be a non secretor. And so but 514 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 2: one of the first things I got was for trial truands, 515 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 2: and it's like obvious, guy's completely changed his opinion about 516 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: the case based on what suits for prosecutor at any 517 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: given time. 518 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: And then, as we mentioned earlier, the last denial in 519 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: appeals court was wrongly based on O'Neill's altered testimony, but 520 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: the carner had also had the same findings that the 521 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: assailant was a non secretor. So it sure seems like 522 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: O'Neill had lied, but you still got to prove that. 523 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: And so fortunately as a guy called Alan Keel, who 524 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: I'd worked with as a DNA analyst, and before he 525 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: was a DNA analyst, he was a zerologist, so he 526 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: was willing to consult on the case, and so I'd 527 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: sent him more than materials. And then basically the reason 528 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: it looked like bullshit that the guy changed his estimony 529 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: like that is because it was, and he is able 530 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: to give a report explaining, you know, in scientific terms, 531 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: that has no reason this guid should have changed his 532 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: opinion and some of the reasons he gives for the 533 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: second opinion he gives. If that was true, it really 534 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: calls into question whether he should be any kind of 535 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: a scientist at all. I mean, he's wrapping it up 536 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: in fancy was. But what he's essentially saying is, well, 537 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: maybe I didn't get any secrete evidence because instead of 538 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: testing the stain, I tested a bit of fabric next 539 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: to the stain accidentally, which I mean, if you believe 540 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: for a second that was true, why not go back 541 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: and test the evidence again. 542 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: So you found a credible source in Keel to confirm 543 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: what was clear to everyone that O'Neill's shady change of 544 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: opinion at the motion for neutral hearing was total horseship. 545 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: But it unfortunately upheld Sullivan's wrongful conviction long after his 546 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: secretor status had proven his actual innocence all the way 547 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: back in January nineteen eighty eight, when Orleans Parish GA 548 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: Harry Connick Senior was still in office, and after him, 549 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: le Uncanni Zaro was unfortunately no better. However, in twenty twenty, 550 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: Jason Williams was elected, ushering in a much needed and 551 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: long overdue era of sanity. 552 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: So in early twenty twenty two, I presented this case 553 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 2: to the Civil Rights Division, a woman Lame Melissa Montel, 554 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 2: who immediately saw of this guy should not be in prisoner. 555 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 2: And so while I think the evidence we had found, 556 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: I think if we had had to litigate the case, 557 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 2: I think Sulivan was leaederly entitled to have his conviction 558 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: thrown out. The District Attorney's office actually signed off on 559 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: agreeing to it. So this was a rare case where 560 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 2: we could actually file a joint motion with the District 561 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: Attorney's office asking for court to vacate his conviction. And 562 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: then judged Darryl Durbany, we went into court shortly before 563 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: we filed it, explained the case to him and he's like, yeah, 564 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: get this case to me. He understood that this is 565 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: something he wanted to sign off on too, I. 566 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: Mean a judge, and he seemed to be very disturbed matters, 567 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 3: and he made some statements quote unquote, he stated, there, 568 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 3: you know, to say that this was uncashionable would be 569 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 3: an understatement, you know, And he actually asked him, you 570 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 3: know what happened? Why is it this guy has been 571 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 3: in prison all these years? After this Physicaloeverns was presented 572 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 3: on his behalf and then the prosecuting she was like, 573 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 3: you know, man, this shouldn't have happened. These people actually lie. 574 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: And so you have Sullivan's conviction was vacated. 575 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, luckily you have Jason Williams in office rather 576 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: than Conic Senior or ely On Connizarro. 577 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: Leon Cannizero was a judge who denied the motion for 578 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: a new trial after the blood typing came back, proving 579 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: Sullivan was a type beaty. 580 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: Greeta wait, wait, wait, so Connazaro, this character was the 581 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: one who watched O'Neill blatantly lie about the evidence that 582 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: proved your actual innocence and still denied your motion for 583 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: a new trial. Right, and then became district attorney for 584 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: the seventeen years following Harry Connock Senior. You know what, 585 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: let's just move on to the good stuff. You had 586 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: your conviction finally vacated in the summer of twenty twenty two. 587 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 3: It was in August August the twenty fifth, but the 588 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 3: week prior to that, mister Davis called me and he 589 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: told me that, you know, I was going to be 590 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 3: going back to court and that you I was going 591 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 3: to be exonerated. And he asked me to see how 592 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 3: you feel in that moment. You know, I told him, 593 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, I feel as if I could breathe, because man, 594 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 3: for all the years, it was like I couldn't breathe. 595 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 3: My whole life was taken from me. And as I said, 596 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 3: I can't tell you what I would have done had 597 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 3: I not went to present. I don't know what would 598 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: have happened to me in the streets. But what I 599 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 3: do know with absolute certainty is I would have never 600 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 3: raped the woman. Ever. That's one of the hard things 601 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 3: about this case. Even though I'm out and I'm free, 602 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 3: the victim is deceased, so I never see this woman. 603 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 3: I'll never looked on her eyes, and she'll never know. 604 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 3: And that my mother, my sister, these are people I 605 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 3: would have wanted to know that I didn't do this, 606 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: you know, I wanted them to see that date and 607 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 3: this victim, she wasn't only a victim to a rape, 608 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 3: she was also a victim to injustice as well, because 609 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: I mean the criminal justice system didn't serve up because 610 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 3: the perpetrate out of crime Neville was brought to justice. 611 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd think that even just out of pure self interest, 612 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: right for their own safety of their own families, right, 613 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: you think that these folks in law enforcement would want 614 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: to get the actual perpetrator off the street and save 615 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: all the future potential victims from enduring a horrible ordeal 616 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: like this poor person did this poor woman. But that's 617 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: not what happened here with you, Sullivan, and in so 618 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: many other cases. So now you're out. I understand that 619 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: you've got steady work, but is there a go fundme 620 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: or some other way our audience can support you? 621 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 3: Well, well, my release. You know, the Anderson Project has 622 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 3: a client service person who helps helps out and there 623 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 3: were go fundme page. 624 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll make sure that we have that 625 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: linked in the bio. And now, of course we've come 626 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: to my favorite part of this show. I'll call it 627 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: closing arguments, where I first of all, thank you both 628 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: for being here with us and courageously sharing this incredible, 629 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: harrowing story. I'm going to turn my microphone off, leave 630 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: my headphones on, close my eyes, and kick back in 631 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 1: my chair and just listen. To anything else you guys 632 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: want to share. Richard, let's start with you and then Sullivan. Walter, 633 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: you can take us right on out into the sunset. 634 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: So I think Sullivan's case, beyond his own story, of course, 635 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 2: is just a real demonstration of how much power of 636 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 2: the system gives people without expecting any kind of responsibility 637 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: or foreigness. It's just the the incredible fecklessness with which 638 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 2: his case was treated and the incredible power they have 639 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: to define his life or being incredibly careless about it. 640 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 2: That's what I see is that you know, this is 641 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 2: not a well hidden injustice. This was right there in 642 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: the open from nineteen eighty eight, and it just, you know, 643 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: a real staggering black to consider Sullivan a person worthy 644 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 2: of care. You know, he's not asking for some kind 645 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: of like extraordinary favor or kindness out system. Just the 646 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: basic level of care is all it would have taken. 647 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 3: And that anyone who hear my story, you know, if 648 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 3: you listen and you hear my story, you know, all 649 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 3: I ask is that you know you understand and know 650 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 3: that you know these things happen and it didn't just 651 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 3: happen to me, It happens to many people throughout the country. 652 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 3: You know, people have been subjected to injustice and wrongful 653 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 3: and canceration and put in prison for extended amount of times, 654 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: and you can't make up for it, you know, I mean, 655 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: thirty six years. It's impossible to make up for it. So, 656 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 3: you know, life is very hard for me. But I live. 657 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 3: I live, and you know, I just try to make 658 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 3: the best of it, and I thank God for every 659 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 3: day and I embrace life. I want to live, you know, 660 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 3: I want to live. I want to live life to 661 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 3: as full as but it's a real challenge. You know, 662 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 3: I lost my mother, my father, my family. I don't 663 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 3: have any kids, and I lost a lot. I'm fifty 664 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 3: four years old. I don't have kids. You know, a 665 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 3: lot was taken from me. You know, I just was 666 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 3: denied a chance to live a life. And I believe that. 667 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 3: I know, I don't believe it. I know it without 668 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 3: a doubt. I'm a good person. I'm a good man, 669 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 3: and you know I believe that I would have made 670 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 3: the best out of life. 671 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 672 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 673 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good plus on 674 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,439 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor 675 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: hall Any, Chelsea, Lyla Robinson, and Kathleen Fink, as well 676 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Awardis, and 677 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production was supplied by 678 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to 679 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for 680 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me 681 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a 682 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 683 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: Company Number one