WEBVTT - Gaming Companies Are Not Sure They Need an NFT Strategy 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.640 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast, 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.040 and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:32.440 Bloomberg News. It's Monday, October. Imagine it's October one. Crypto 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:37.239 prices are rocketing. Celebrities can't stop talking about n f 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.400 T s to other celebrities. There's packed conferences and glitzy 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.840 venues and places like Miami and London attended by people 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.680 wearing T shirts with cartoon monkeys on them. If you're 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.680 an executive at a big gaming studio seeing all of 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:58.240 this happen, you might might be forgiven for sending one 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.080 of those emails with the subject line and like n 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.400 f T strategy question mark and several executives of gaming 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.399 companies did indeed send those emails, and some of their 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:10.880 companies rushed to announce plans about how they were going 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.400 to make blockchain gaming happen. Flash forward about a year, 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:20.240 so right now, October twenties twenty two, celebrities aren't talking 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.280 about their n f T s. People are trying to 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.040 sell those apes, and gaming studios don't seem quite so 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.440 convinced that they even need an n f T strategy anymore, 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.360 joining me to discuss this vibe shift our Bloomberg reporters 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.760 Emel Nicole. Definitely. The overwhelming reaction to that marketplace was 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.960 not positive from both fans and staff who complained very loudly, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.840 and game developer Mark Ventarelli one of the things that 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.720 most concerned me In turn society I think we are, 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.960 it's the depth of imagination, right, I think we're very 0:01:54.000 --> 0:02:09.799 much a literal society. Mark, Emily, Welcome to the show. Mark. 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:11.760 I'm going to start with you because our listeners know 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:13.880 who Emily is by now. Please tell us who you 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.840 are and what brings you here today. Thank you, happy 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.280 to be here. My name is Mark Finzarelli and I'm 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.640 the CEO of Roguesdale, which is a game development studio 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.360 here in Brazil, and I've been a professional game designer 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:30.240 for over fifteen years. Very exciting. As I tell everyone 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.239 at this point they all know somehow it working in 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.000 the video games in an industry is like where I 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:35.519 would have gone had I not made the decision to 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.480 be a journalist. So it's always a pleasure to get 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.280 to talk about videos. Ha ha. Yeah, don't tell my bosses. 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:47.200 They listen to this podcast. But you are here today 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.119 talking to us because you did a very interesting thing 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.840 a couple of months ago, which is show up on 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:59.080 a panel virtually at a conference, start to talk about 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.359 one thing and then be like, actually, never mind, We're 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:02.600 going to talk about n f t s and why 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.079 they're ruining video games. And so perhaps that is of 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.480 a strong characterization of your presentation, but you know, I 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.280 would love to get your perspective as a person working 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:19.160 in the industry on what you have observed in terms 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.440 of this conversation around crypto and gaming, blockchain and gaming, 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.160 n f t s and gaming, and what has happened 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.880 for you in the months after you went semi viral 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:37.000 for that talk. I think the answer to that question 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.840 also clears up a little bit of a misconception around 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.720 my talk, which is, um, I kind of do change subjects, 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.000 but it is joking. I mean, I'm an entertainer, right, 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.680 I know how to commend people people's attentions, UH with 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.000 gimmicks and fleshy stuff. That's where we do a lot 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:59.080 if the game design. But the name of my talk 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.280 originally was UH and it still is the future of 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.840 game design. And in the middle of that talk, I say, actually, 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.480 like I'll change the name. I'll change the title of 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.360 this talk now, and it's going to be hy n 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.040 f d s are an Imare, And then I start 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.600 talking about that. And then at some point after I 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.839 give enough context about why I think and IFT should 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.479 not be part of this future of game design, I 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.920 changed the title back to the future game design, and 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.000 that continue, and so it was kind of a playful thing, 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.480 but it was all into like a single concise argument, 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.760 and to ask your question about like the motivation, I 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.359 think it is impossible to discuss the future of game design, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.920 the future entertainment, and in many ways the future of 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.919 humanity right without addressing current friends and technology, without talking 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:51.200 about the blotchain specifically, but also an FTS even more specifically. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.600 But I felt like I had a unique point of 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.480 view being a game designer and also being someone who 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.120 not only I have working I have been working on 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.400 the entertainments reform my entire life. I also am very 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:07.240 much technology enthusiasts. I have been into the blockchain and 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.000 studying into figuring out how to use it and trying 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.520 to do stuff with it for many, many years. And 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:14.600 I felt like I had a unique point of view 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:20.159 to contribute to the overall conversation about gaming plus blockchain, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:25.760 and that's why I felt need to do the talk. 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:28.920 As for what changed after the talk, I got a 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:33.120 lot more Twitter phones. So you're saying it's working. What 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.760 you're saying, well, it wasn't my goal right overall, I 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.560 felt like the goal that I had going into this event, Um, 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.720 we accomplished that. And when I say we, I say 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.800 not only me, but student everybody who helped me make 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.280 the talk, also the everybody who on the side of 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.960 being developers in Brazil specifically agree with my positions. Uh, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.920 there was a big movement it still is to boycott 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.440 events like big Fest, which is our equivalence to the 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:05.279 Game Developers Conference. It's like the biggest my conference result 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.720 we have right now, to ploycotted because he had crypto 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.520 sponsors or because he had crypto game and I said, no, like, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:12.080 this is not a crypto event, this is a game 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.200 development event. Like if we boycotted because we don't agree 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.200 with things that are there, like we're not doing ourselves 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.600 any favors. We used to be there and to say 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.200 our piece, not to put two final points on it. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.960 You know you. Emily also interviewed you for a follow 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.680 up story that I'm going to ask her about very shortly, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.920 and your quotes in that story, you know, just if 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.320 I may read a piece of it is essentially characterizing 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.960 the idea of n f T s and video games 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.640 as a gimmicky technology that provides nothing of value besides 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.000 and make money quick scheme. What I would love to 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.920 get your perspective on is why, as a person who 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.800 makes games, do you not think there's any value in 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:59.000 this particular technology, contrary to what other people who also 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:03.080 make games are trying to argue. If I had to 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.400 choose a few core things, I feel like it is 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.640 about what games are for in society because I try 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.400 to bring a lot about this, like what value do 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:19.320 we actually offer to society as artists, as entertainers, as 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.920 media creators, uh involved in making video games. I feel 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:28.840 like to these days, the the players, not only video 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.880 game players and young people, but especially young people, the 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.600 the gen z uh, they feel hopeless, They feel powerless. Right. 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.360 It's a generation that looks at all the issues and 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.800 all the problems that they have ahead of them, and 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:44.920 they don't feel like they have what it takes to 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.680 take them on and I think the video games, among many, many, 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.480 many other things, is a place where you can be powerful, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.680 where your actions can be meaningful, where you can be 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.120 the hero, right, where you can have a power fantasy 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.920 control fantasy, where you can feel like you're in control, 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.920 You're important, you matter, your actions matter, your decisions matter. 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.040 And this is all relates to your concept that which 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.960 is very important game design technically, which is meaning, right, Um, 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.280 and what I think that everything that has been done 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.680 in the space, and it was always the intention to 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.800 do that, right, Like, it's not a surprise. But then 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.400 if these are doing to bring economic factors into gaming 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.880 in a way that brings the one thing that really 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.080 don't want to bring from the real world into games 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.400 or any other kind of entertainment, which is oppression. So 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:40.000 when you bring economic uh, real world economics into game design, 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.959 what you do and again I'm simplifying this very much. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.240 I go into into this more in depth in My Dog, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.359 But what effectively what you're doing is you're bringing oppression 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.079 into these into these spaces, right, which are supposed to 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:57.840 be fantasy spaces, spaces of imagination, spaces of empowerments, spats, 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.880 spaces of meaning, right, like a suddenly you are oppressed 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.360 in the video game. You no longer can win. But 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.240 I think that's the thing about one of the things 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:11.080 about classic games, in classic game design is you always 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.360 can win. It's always possible to win. Right. The moments 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.800 where you feel like it's no longer possible to win 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.319 is the moment where the game is no longer relevant, 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:21.880 like I don't want to play anymore. It's not it's 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.760 not possible to win. And that's not true too many 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:30.080 real word interactions. Right, it is not always possible to win, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.880 and and that that's what oppression is. And when you 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.679 bring this into games, you destroy the possibility of winning. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.680 You say, you know, the phrase that you use there, 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:44.400 which I find is very interesting, is kind of like 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:49.160 in classic or classical game design, because the idea of 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.280 pay to win was certainly not invented by crypto people. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.880 You know that that is the casualization of mobile gaming, 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.280 the idea of loot boxes, the idea of gotcha, the 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.160 whole notion of sure, you can get to level five, 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:04.520 but if you want to get to level fifty, it's 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.200 gonna cost you either tens of thousands of hours of 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:12.320 your life or hundreds of dollars um has been extremely 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.600 prevalent in in games for a long time, you know, 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.480 like from in app purchase to d l c s too. 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.880 Like you buy a hero, you know, forget just kind 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.840 of the economics of consumables, but the the actual mechanical 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.439 pricing of if you really want this short and the 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.040 sort is the thing that you're gonna need to you know, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.800 be the hero, it's gonna cost you money. So those 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.240 those elements aren't crypto specific what you're describing, but they are, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:43.440 in your argument, even more profound in a crypto context. Yes, 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.520 I think so, either equivalent or worse. We'll be right 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.920 back with more from Bloomberg Reports or Emily Nicole and 0:10:50.040 --> 0:11:12.200 video game developer Mark Ventarelli. Emily, I'm going to go 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.680 to you to just you know, sort of zoom out 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.480 a little bit, because you started reporting on the intersection 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.240 of crypto and gaming when various executives at other studios, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.720 particularly the larger ones, thought it was a good idea, 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.640 and you know, you had various folks who you will name, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.120 be like, yeah, what we actually need to do is 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.240 design an n f T exchange thing where players can monetize, 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.680 and they made you know, it's they took all of 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.000 the arguments that Mark is making that are negative and 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.120 turn them into things and like, here the reasons why 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.920 these are good for our players who were some of 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.720 those folks, And what's the status of those projects right now? 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.000 I think one of the easiest and the largest publishers 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.400 to point to on that front is the French published 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.640 at Ubisoft, which makes the very very very popular game 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:09.400 franchise Assassins Creed. Because they started their kind of I 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.439 guess you call them web three n f T experiments 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.480 last year and they came out with a marketplace that 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:21.040 was specifically for one of their games, UM and it 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.559 was released to the public pretty early, did have all 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.280 the usual markers of like this is a beta test, etcetera. 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.800 But you know, anybody can access to Anybody could buy 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.200 the n f T s if they were things like 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:35.560 swords and guns and um and various outfits and things 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.880 that you could play in this game. But after a 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.440 few months of being active, pretty much nobody was buying them. 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.079 The prices were pretty low, and within you know, by 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.960 April this year, the whole thing was shut down and 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.240 it was no longer active. And if you hear Ubisoft 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.080 talk about that project. Now, the conversation very much goes like, well, 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.760 this was early research. We were thinking about Web three, 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.080 were thinking about how we could do this, and we're 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.120 exploring things, and just because we shut it down doesn't 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.920 mean we're not thinking about We're through anymore, we're not 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.960 doing things on blockchain. But definitely, the overwhelming reaction to 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.560 that marketplace was not positive from both fans and staff, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.520 who complained very loudly externally and internally about the fact 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:27.720 that Ubisoft was doing something with npties. Mark, I have 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.720 a question for you about it's it's based on, you know, 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.319 the Cleon phrase like great artists steal. Is there anything 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.959 about the arguments that proponents of entities, etcetera. Are making 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.280 about blockchain about you know this, this theoretical future in 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.800 which more of your fun in game things are interoperable. 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.920 Are any of those as concepts separate from the you 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.800 know what folks likes are called the tokenomics or the 0:13:53.840 --> 0:14:00.719 economics of these tokens interesting to game developers. Honestly, Um, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.400 there isn't, in my opinion, anything in that space that 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.440 works separately from toconomics. That's actually the one question that 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.920 if you ask people are proposing these kinds of systems 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.840 usually breaks them like like if it's okay, but besides 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.480 the toconomics, besides the economic factor, besides all these things, 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.680 what are you proposing here? And it's usually like said 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.200 everything you will just new again, like the things about 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:35.880 for example, interpreterability, like this is not in itself a 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.920 new idea at large scale is a terrible idea. I 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.600 see people talking about the metaverse, for example, as if well, 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.080 like you can get an item from game acts and 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.560 then you can use it on game Why that that 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.840 sounds fun and it could be fun if it is 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.280 designed with intent. But the idea of the metaverse and 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.560 the does I the idea of interpretability that people would 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.680 have on the do like free space, it's to make 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:10.120 it ubiquitous. Right when you do that, this is actually 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.920 a nightmare. You're just from moving. Designers the ability to 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.720 create meaning like a talk about this in my talk 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.040 as well. Like af there's a thing game design called 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.120 the magic circle, which is a way that game designers 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.600 we can imbue things with meaning. Right, So here in 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.080 Brazil we play a lot of soccer on the streets, right, 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.040 and then we use flip flops to mark where the 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.640 goal is. Right, So we're just taking flip flops and saying, hey, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.080 this is the goal. They are no longer flip flops 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.640 instead of this magic circle that we are defining here. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.760 So that is one of the core verbs of game 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:50.080 designers to imbue with meaning, right. Uh. And when you 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.720 try to create these ubiquitous interpretability rising games, but what 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:59.520 you're actually doing is you're creating these like a ooze 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.680 of everything is the same thing as the like token 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.480 token ization in terms of cultural terms, right, it's d 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.960 end goal these these people, right, they actually want to 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.000 destroy art. Like, uh, it's the same thing. Like if 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.240 you see like Fortnite, for example, Like you really like 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.400 Spider Man, well you can be Spiderman Fortnite, and then 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.880 you can like shoot an a K for a seven 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.760 at Naruto or something like that. Right when you're doing that, 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.320 it's no longer the Spider Man. Right. If you like 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.800 Peter Parker, if you like Miles Morause, Like, I feel 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.360 like these kinds of characters, and that's why you like 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.480 your Parker, and that's why I like Spider Man. Sorry, Uh, 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.160 that person there, that character there is just the brand. 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.880 It's just a token. It's not Miles morause, it's just 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.400 Spider Man the token, right, It's it's it's not there's 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.920 no death to it, there's no real meaning to it. 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.480 It's empty, it's soulless. And what you actually achieve if 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.320 you try to do a large scale interoperability between games 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.240 is that you destroy this meaning. You just try that. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.960 You destroy art to start expression, you strike character, you 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.879 destroy subjectivity, like, uh, you're just everything becomes literal. And 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.240 that's one of the things that most concerned me in 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.440 current society. I think we are. It's the death of imagination, right, 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.320 I think we're very much a literal society. Like the 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.680 current rise of like alt rights and stuff like that 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.280 is very much connected to people being very literal as 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.360 a response to an overload of our of our senses, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:35.960 of our ability to interpret this overload or information coming 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.040 at us, right, the swarm of information coming at us, 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.720 and to make everything just literal. That is extremely dangerous 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:47.159 not only to video game and artistic expression in general 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.720 and entertainment, but for us as a society. I love 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.440 a podcast that is both existential and spicy at the 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.680 same time. So I think we are. I think we're 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.200 gonna end it there. Thank you both, Emily, Thank keep 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.040 very much, Mark Regada. It was a pleasure having you 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.359 both on the show. You can find more of Emily 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.240 Nicole's reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:15.760 or follower on Twitter. She's at Emily J. Nicole. On 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.120 the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, there's nothing straightforward about 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.720 a crypto bankruptcy, and in finance, where there's complexity, there's 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.040 going to be someone ready to make money from the chaos. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.639 On this next episode, you'll hear from one of the 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:34.159 people who's finding opportunities in the crypto distress. This is 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.840 Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.679 For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the I 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.560 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.080 Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for the show 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.520 to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net or find us on Twitter. 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:56.760 We're at Crypto. The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.439 Vicky very Galina. Our senior producer is Janet Babin. Our 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:05.159 producer is Mohammed Farouk. Associate producer is Moses on Desta 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.840 wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidran. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.200 I'm Stacy Maria Shmael. We'll be back tomorrow.