WEBVTT - Ask Dr. Ramani: How To Go "No Contact" with a Narcissist 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.119 Hey, navigators, on this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm answering 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:09.440 all of your burning questions about how, when, and what 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.920 it means to go no contact with a narcissist. This 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.880 is a common dilemma, but it's not as simple as 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you think. This podcast should not be used as a 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:25.120 substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.880 to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:34.680 a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:39.960 health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.599 The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:50.240 podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.920 not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.800 or their employees. So in our first question, Carmen asks, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.360 when you talk about going no contact, is it literally 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:09.280 zero contact? My dad is a narcissist. If I do this, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:14.760 does that mean he won't see my kids either? So, Carmen, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.200 let's start at the top with what no contact is. 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.280 I mean, it's what it sounds like. You have no 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.720 contact with this person, right? You really have no ongoing communication? 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.800 You're not texting you're not calling, you're not going places 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.920 where they are. You don't see them anymore. Here's what's 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.360 interesting about no contact. There was some research I had 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.160 seen a couple of years ago, and in this it 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.760 was about five hundred people have gone through narcissistic abuse, 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:41.200 and no contact actually popped up as the strategy that 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.800 was associated with sort of healing and feeling better the fastest. 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.080 It kind of makes sense, right, if you don't have 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.160 to deal with the person who is causing you so 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.520 much harm, you are going to be less stressed out. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.240 The problem is that's often not possible. So no contact 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.000 in its purest form is just it's no contact, but 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.360 that is differentiated from something we call low contact, and 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.560 low contact kind of has three things that come under it. 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.320 The first is something called gray rock or gray rocking. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.359 Gray rock is basically what it sounds like. It's sort 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.720 of being as uninteresting as a gray rock. So your 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.080 answers tend to be kind of one or two words. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.160 You're sort of blah, you're not really engaged. You're not 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:30.200 offering up your own topics of conversation. You're just yeah, okay, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.040 sure got it, but you don't ask about them when 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.040 they ask you how you're doing, you might say good. 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.240 A level up from gray rock is something called yellow rocking, 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.639 a term that was actually developed by Tina Swithin, who 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.040 was a guest on this podcast. And Tina developed this 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.880 idea of yellow rocking, and the yellow I think is 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.239 only because she actually likes the color yellow. She's like 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.080 it was brighter than gray to her, So there's no 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.520 magic mystery around the yellowness of it. But because Tina's 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.560 work is so much in co parenting, she said, it's 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.560 probably not healthy for a child to see a parent 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.320 being so yes, no and flat. It could actually be 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:10.919 unsettling for a child. Yellow rock is still relatively minimal engagement, 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.480 but a little bit of bringing your own flare into it, 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.560 like hey, yeah, great, hope you have a good time. 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.240 There's a little bit more emotion and you know, did 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.360 you have a good weekend? Like you can actually ask 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.639 those kinds of questions and it doesn't seem as confrontational. 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.760 Another term that's been developed actually with somebody I have 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.080 worked with on this before, and she works in tech, 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.320 and she said, well, you should call it firewalling, and 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.560 I actually thought that was also a great communication strategy. 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.640 Firewalling is when you think about what a firewall is 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.320 on your computer or on your device, it's meant to 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.440 protect the information going out and the information coming in. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.200 And what she was thinking and what sort of punched 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.680 it out to mean is that when you're firewalling with 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.880 a narcissistic person, you're not going to want to give 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.120 them sensitive information, right the same way you wouldn't put 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.640 like your social secure a number into some website that 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.680 could take your information. You make sure it's a secure 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.080 at sight. It's a similar thing that you're not going 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.839 to share your vulnerabilities or something about you that could 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:13.320 be used against you. But a firewall also protects what 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.920 comes in with a narcissistic relationship. We can be very 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.719 careful about what we put out and that good boundaries, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.640 so we don't let a lot of that toxic stuff in. 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.480 So that combination of stuff is the whole sort of 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.640 spectrum of low and low contact. But in Carmen's question, 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.080 she's saying specifically dad's a narcissist. Sounds like she really 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.800 wants to cut down her contact with him, But that 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.680 does that mean he won't see my kids either? And 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.359 this is where and throughout this episode, I want to 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.119 highlight this issue that we cannot take such a black 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.200 and white approach to no contact. It may very well 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.839 be if Carmen feels, for example, that a relationship with 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.640 their grandfather may not necessarily be a bad thing for 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.600 these kids, or she doesn't want to stop them from 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.160 having it, she may figure out ways of dropping them off, 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.640 having a very sort of a quick goodbye, making sure 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.320 it's on days when maybe they all have an organized 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.920 activity to do. So, Carmen can definitely minimize her contact 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:15.160 to almost nothing, very little in between contact, and then 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.320 perhaps still the kids could have that relationship. Be very 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.400 very careful. Any of you who may have children and 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.520 then there's grandparents and extended family about ever saying nope, 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.360 my kids can have nothing to do with you, and 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.200 to do that from an angry place. I fully understand 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.440 the anger, but my eye is on your kids. What 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.760 you don't want is for those children down the line 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.360 to say, how come I never got to have an 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.760 experience with grandparents or aunts and uncles or whomever it 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.680 may be, Because those potentially could sometimes be decent relationships. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.440 That will be its own other episode because it's complicated, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.560 but really tread lightly there and think through your situation. 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.200 In some cases you might say no, this is a 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.560 dangerous person for my kids, then absolutely honor that. But 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.599 in this case, if Carmen feels that she does want 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.360 her dad to have contact with her children, but she 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.839 herself needs to really set down a very very very 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.400 hard boundary with her dad, there are workarounds. Will it 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.160 be one hundred percent no contact, No, because there has 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.080 to be coordination, but that Carmen doesn't have to have 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:21.560 deep or conflictual conversations with her father. In our second question, 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:27.760 Angelica asks how do you actually go no contact? Do 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.560 I tell my brother I'm no longer speaking to him, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:36.480 or do I just stop answering his texts without explanation? Angelica, 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.280 you're asking the question for the ages here, which is 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.120 not just about no contact, but the how of no contact. 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.640 Any of you who know my work, you know I've 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:50.239 always said, never call a narcissistic person out, and never, 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.159 in very black and white terms, tell them this is 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.960 what I'm about to do, because what they tend to 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.240 do is, in a way, you don't want to give 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.000 him your playbook, and they're going to almost view that 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.640 as game on as Oh, you think you're going to 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.040 go no contact with me, Well, I'll show you now. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.840 Some people would say, if Angelica doesn't tell her brother 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.600 she's going to go no contact, doesn't that mean she's 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.280 just ghosting him? Not entirely. First of all, ghosting is 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.720 kind of having its minute in the sun for a while, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.040 where like ghosting is bad, that's a very antagonistic behavior. 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.200 But for some people, if a relationship is toxic enough, 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.160 it may actually be a little bit safer to kind 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.480 of fade away because that sort of goodbye conversation won't 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.800 serve much of a function. It's probably going to end 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.320 up in more harm for the person who wants to 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.040 go no contact, So it's going to be a case 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.880 by case situation. I often tell people one of the 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.040 best ways to go no contact is a bit of 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.440 a fade. You're no longer initiating any communication with them. 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.960 You're not reaching out to them, You're not responding to 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.640 nonsense text you know how you do and how's your day. 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.960 You may still respond to factual texts like do you 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.520 have that this, especially if you have something that they 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.200 actually need or someone else needs, You may respond to those, 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.360 but there's going to be very very little further engagement, 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.680 and if none of those sort of necessary texts are happening, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.080 then again there's just sort of a slow, slow fade. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.560 Here's where it gets tricky is that initially the person 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.000 you're going no contact with is going to escalate. Hello, 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.760 I've been trying to reach you. Where are you? Question mark? 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.960 Question mark, question mark, emoji, emoji, voice, memo, voice, memo 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.400 voice note, more emojis. They're going to keep coming at 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.280 you because they're used to you responding to them. It's 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.360 actually not that bizarre that they would want to know 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.520 if you were to round up. If Angelica was to 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.240 go to her brother and say, you know what, I've 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.600 decided it's healthier for me to not be in contact 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.800 with you. I would be willing to bet you a 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.800 thousand bucks. Then Angelica's brother is going to come back 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:57.439 at her with some gaslighted, cruel, manipulative response. So in 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.560 most of these cases, a gradual fading out without a 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.240 sort of I am never talking to you again kind 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.320 of a thing is the better way to go. It'll 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:09.440 be pretty clear, I mean, especially if there's a last 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.680 conversation that you had with someone was very conflictual, very problematic. 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.839 You've heard the apologies one hundred times before, and you 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.920 just fade away. This is a lot easier if you 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:21.959 do not live near this person, so if they live 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.920 far away, you're not in regular contact with them. If 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.640 you are in regular contact, the gradual fate is almost essential, 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.760 because it's a little bit strange to have daily communication 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.240 with someone and then just disappear. Since this is a family, 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.200 Angelica can easily anticipate that her brother may very well 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.120 try to use other family members to get to her. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.640 How come you're not responding to your brother's text. Your 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.120 brother keeps asking me why you won't respond to him. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.120 That's the triangulation. Angelica could respond to that person and say, 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.680 it's all good, how are you doing? You know this 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:56.920 actually doesn't relate to you, so don't worry about it. 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.680 But you can see it gets messy, however, making the 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.599 big strong I am going no contact with you. I 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.839 never recommend that. In our next question, THEO says, I've 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.480 seen the term gray rocking a lot on social I've 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.040 tried it, but it seems to be making things worse 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.480 in my situation. Is that normal? Oh, THEO, you just 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.200 said a mouthful. I'm so glad we got this question 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.119 because this is exactly what happens, not only with no contact, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.480 but also with Gray Rock. You have to remember, for 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.320 the narcissistic person, you are a source of supply. They're 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.520 not listening to you. You are a source of response, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.280 you're a source of validation, you're a source of something 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.400 to do. But they are not really listening to you 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:49.400 unless it works for them. So if you disengage, if 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.520 you won't spar with them, because remember, the narcissistic person's 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:58.360 pretty much singular motivation in a relationship is power, control, domination. Right, 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.880 they want to run the show. So if you're not 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.880 communicating the way they want, they're losing some of that 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.960 power and control and they do not like it. So 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.480 Gray Rock really puts a narcissistic person on their back heel. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.480 They do not like it. Initially, a lot of people 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.000 have told me, just like THEO asks, I went Gray 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.680 Rock and things have gotten worse. They're baiting me, they're 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:22.840 saying terrible things to me. It's like they're trying to 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.520 get a rise out of me. Because remember Gray Rock 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.880 is very, very unemotional. That's why I'm not as big 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.760 a fan of it. There was a time when I 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:32.360 was like gray Rock, but then I thought, you know, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.319 I was seeing more and more and more people were 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.040 getting a lot of blowback. This is why yellow Rock, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.520 I think, is a better strategy. If you're going to 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.240 have a low contact sort of an approach, then it 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.160 doesn't feel like you've gone so flat. And I think 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.880 people who go gray Rock are also more vulnerable to 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.520 sort of the kind of like the mockery, Oh so, 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.400 what does your therapist tell you not to talk to me? 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.160 What is this? What is this whole thing? And they'll 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.560 really sort of try to minimize what you're trying to do, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:05.120 which in essence is trying to protect yourself. So when 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.319 you go gray rock, when you go no contact, you 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.680 almost guarantee there's going to be an escalation, and that 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:15.160 escalation can be really, really painful. They may keep pushing 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.080 up the volume on the baiting where they're really going 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.559 at things that matter to you that hurt you. They 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:23.920 may be things about you, they may be things about 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.800 your kids, they may be things in your life, beliefs 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.520 that you hold that are really important to you. And 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.960 then what you may find is that you almost snap. 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.439 You're like, how could you say that? And now they've 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.800 broken you out of your gray rock and they're satisfied. 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:42.199 They're like, Okay, I'm cool. You're not. You're losing your mind. 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.760 I guess you're the one who's unhinged and I've got 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.280 it together. And then you're even angry at yourself. One 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.480 thing I want to tell everyone about gray Rock, be 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.920 kind to yourself. If you decide to go that way 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.560 and they bait you and you kind of blow up 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.600 at them, don't say, oh my gosh, I can't manage this, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.360 I'm so bad at this. You're great at this. It's 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.000 not easy to hold your ground on either gray rock 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:09.320 or no contact. Try some yellow rocking, Try a gradual 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.160 sort of coming out. Don't be so much with a 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.280 flat They're still going to push back because they want 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.360 their usual banter with you. But be prepared that if 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.160 you do go gray rock or no contact, there is 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.920 going to be an escalation. Things are going to see worse. Now. 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.200 What will happen is if you can white knuckle it, 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.599 you'll come around the bend. And what will happen is 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.000 you'll actually kind of be no longer interesting to them. 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.360 It's they're baiting you. You're not taking the bait they're 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.120 talking to you, you're not responding. They need more supply, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.679 and after a week or two or even month, maybe 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.120 if you're no longer supply, they're going to move on 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.200 to new supply. But that's a long time to endure 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.200 the kind of again, the antagonism and the manipulation. But 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.719 theo's experience is universal. So if any of you are 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.240 struggling with an experience of when you go gray rocking 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.880 or no contact, I'm here to tell you it's totally normal. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:02.920 One thing to also be clear on when it comes 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:07.280 to narcissistic supply is narcissistic supply isn't just praise and 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.080 applause and validation and Instagram likes. Narcissistic supply can be 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.320 also what we consider sort of we'd usually considered negative 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.000 or bad stuff, but actually getting into an argument with them. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.000 Narcissistic people are fighters. They like the fight. The lack 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.960 of empathy in some ways makes it so they're willing 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:26.920 to go on the attack. Now, don't get me wrong. 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.720 They're thin skinned and probably more sensitive than any of 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.720 us are, and so when they're hurt they lash out. 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.200 More So if you get a zinger in there, they're 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.200 going to come at you, and in a way, that 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.080 idea that they could win the fight is a source 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.360 of supply for them. So be aware that in this case, 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.080 your supply may not just be that you're praising them. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.960 That shit may have sailed long ago, but you may 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.040 be this source of conflict that almost becomes like a 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.920 little psychological boxing sparring workout, And you don't want it, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.960 but they do because that's really helps them feel powerful. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.040 In this next question, James asks very simply, how do 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.080 I know it's time to go no contact? I wish 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.240 there was a little ping you heard in your head 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.240 and you're like, this is it. Ask anyone who's ever 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.960 gone no contact, and they'll say I just knew. They 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.720 would say, it's gotten to the point where this relationship 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.840 is harming me. I ruminate about it. I feel sick 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.160 before seeing them, I feel sick after seeing them. I 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.160 feel sick while I'm with them. You really really will 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.120 feel that. I'm going to tell you personally, some of 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.240 my no contact experiences were a person said something so 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:43.040 hurtful that violated my values. That were personal attacks. There 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.240 were bells you could not unring that something in me 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.320 just sort of died, and I thought, nah, this is 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.960 simply just not good for me. And so I know 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.040 for me personally, and I think for many people, no 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.360 contact is spurred on by someone saying something that was 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:02.120 very cruel or unforgivable. No contact, you often will know, 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.360 is again more than anything, it's harm. Now, there's some 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.680 cases that are obvious harm, like if there was physical 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.760 violence or physical threats, that feels much more in your 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:11.560 face and very clear, like this is not even a 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.040 safe place for me anymore, or this person has put 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.080 me in dangerous situations that will be more obvious. But 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:22.320 in many narcissistic relationships, stuff is subtle, and the subtlety 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.840 is what throws people off, and many people will think, oh, 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.200 I feel uncomfortable, maybe I'm too sensitive. Sadly, this is 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.320 why it can take a while for people to fully 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.880 give in to say this is just not good for me. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.760 And this podcast and anything we talk about related to 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.960 narcissism is a place for me to tell you this 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.560 is not good for you, this will never be good 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.000 for you. But we were never given permission to be 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.520 able to say a toxic relationship is actually harming our health. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.600 And so when it comes to no contact, what you 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.840 might also feel is that, because there's no sort of 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:05.040 aha moment, you may experiment with it. You might find that, Okay, 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.840 I cannot I feel sick, I cannot do this anymore. 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.520 I'm not listening to this anymore. And you go no 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.520 contact for maybe a month or six weeks or even 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.280 two weeks, and then somehow you get pulled back in. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.040 Please don't view those as fails. I feel like that 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:23.240 no contact practice almost gives you a chance to build 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.919 your muscle when it comes to being hoovered or sucked 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.640 back in. It helps you build your muscle to see 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.800 what it feels like to not have this person around, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.520 to learn new ways of communicating, to holding your ground. 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.840 So no contact is not often a all in process. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.400 It's often a series of false starts, if you will, 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.440 and over time you'll find that, Okay, after two weeks, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.600 I talked to them again. We went exactly where we 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.960 were before. The other thing I also recommend is journaling. 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.399 It can really be helpful, even if you make a 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.600 brief note in your phone, like Okay, the last six 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.439 times I talked to this person, they publicly shame to me, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:04.080 humiliate me, said really unacceptable things. Memory is a funny thing. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.640 It'll often courten off the things we don't want to remember. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.520 So if you write it down and say, okay, the 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.320 last six times this happened, maybe it's time not to 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.080 do this anymore. A combination of all that helps, But again, 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.680 there's no magic ding in the sky that you hear. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.320 It's a process. But pay attention to your body. If 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.280 you feel sick at the thought of even seeing this person, 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.959 or you feel sick after you talk to this person, 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.960 no contact maybe something that you want to start considering. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.520 One of the big risks in trying to figure out 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:37.520 when to go no contact is that you may be 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.840 waiting for that proverbial line in the sand to be crossed. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.679 Right if they use this kind of language, if they 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.040 were to ever say this, if they were to ever 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.760 raise hands against me, then I will know I'm out. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.399 The struggle becomes And this is something that's really nefarious 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.119 about narcissism. Somehow they know how to fly right under 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.120 that line in the sand, like they don't quite cross it, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.800 but they flirt with it. And if you get too 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.560 stuck on your line in the sand, over time, you 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:11.639 may endure a lot of emotional abuse but not quite 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.239 get to that line that you made a promise. If 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.840 that happens, if I had a dollar for every person 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.200 who ever said to me in a narcissistic relationship, if 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.479 I find out they're cheating on me, or if they 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.280 ever hit me, I'm out. I'm like, Okay, So thirty 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:28.520 years of having your reality denied and being emotionally abused 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.040 doesn't qualify. But a one night stand in Vegas would 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.000 be enough to get you out of this mess, you know, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.040 So that kind of line in the sand stuff. I 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.240 understand how some people feel like, Okay, now I know 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.240 I can go no contact or get out of this. 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.919 But because sometimes that line never gets reached, sometimes for 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.840 even years or decades, be very careful with that, because 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.000 you may get so wedded to the line that you 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.240 miss the accumulated abuse that you are enduring. In our 0:19:55.240 --> 0:20:02.119 next question, Pamla asks is no contact forever or should 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.639 I revisit it every few months. I love how this 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.560 question was asked because it gets at this idea of 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.520 calibrating no contact, and I think in some ways might 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.760 make no contact feel like a more realistic strategy for folks, 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.360 if you really were to embrace no contact as I 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.880 am never going to speak to you again, in a way, 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.280 it's like a death, and it may be the death 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.520 of someone you're not I mean, you just don't want 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.560 them bothering you anymore or harming you anymore. But it's 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.920 not that you're wishing that. The foreverness of it all 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.080 is a lot existentially almost to get our heads around. 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.840 So this idea of can I recalibrate my no contact, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.159 I would say you don't need to put yourself on 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.880 a deliberate schedule of every four months or six months 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.800 or every year that you'd have to revisit it, but 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.960 rather make a promise to yourself to say, I'm going 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.320 to let life unwind. I'm going to make sure I'm 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.440 taking care of me, that I'm listening to my intuition, 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.919 and then if a moment comes up where it feels 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:05.840 like there is contact happens and it's appropriate and I 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.479 feel safe communicating back, then that's fine. Again. I'm going 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.320 to share a personal story where I did go no 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.040 contact with someone and then there was a reason this 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.040 person had to reach out to me they never would 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:20.400 have otherwise, and the person had hurt me. I went 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.040 no contact. They reached out to me with a piece 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.680 of information. The piece of information was actually quite shocking. 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.920 I could have not responded, but the piece of information 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.120 hurt both of us. The news hurt both of us. 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.080 So I responded and I said, thank you so much 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.200 for sharing that. That was so tragic, and I even 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.560