Speaker 1: Hey, navigators, on this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm answering
Speaker 1: all of your burning questions about how, when, and what
Speaker 1: it means to go no contact with a narcissist. This
Speaker 1: is a common dilemma, but it's not as simple as
Speaker 1: you think. This podcast should not be used as a
Speaker 1: substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised
Speaker 1: to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from
Speaker 1: a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental
Speaker 1: health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
Speaker 1: podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
Speaker 1: not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: or their employees. So in our first question, Carmen asks,
Speaker 1: when you talk about going no contact, is it literally
Speaker 1: zero contact? My dad is a narcissist. If I do this,
Speaker 1: does that mean he won't see my kids either? So, Carmen,
Speaker 1: let's start at the top with what no contact is.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's what it sounds like. You have no
Speaker 1: contact with this person, right? You really have no ongoing communication?
Speaker 1: You're not texting you're not calling, you're not going places
Speaker 1: where they are. You don't see them anymore. Here's what's
Speaker 1: interesting about no contact. There was some research I had
Speaker 1: seen a couple of years ago, and in this it
Speaker 1: was about five hundred people have gone through narcissistic abuse,
Speaker 1: and no contact actually popped up as the strategy that
Speaker 1: was associated with sort of healing and feeling better the fastest.
Speaker 1: It kind of makes sense, right, if you don't have
Speaker 1: to deal with the person who is causing you so
Speaker 1: much harm, you are going to be less stressed out.
Speaker 1: The problem is that's often not possible. So no contact
Speaker 1: in its purest form is just it's no contact, but
Speaker 1: that is differentiated from something we call low contact, and
Speaker 1: low contact kind of has three things that come under it.
Speaker 1: The first is something called gray rock or gray rocking.
Speaker 1: Gray rock is basically what it sounds like. It's sort
Speaker 1: of being as uninteresting as a gray rock. So your
Speaker 1: answers tend to be kind of one or two words.
Speaker 1: You're sort of blah, you're not really engaged. You're not
Speaker 1: offering up your own topics of conversation. You're just yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: sure got it, but you don't ask about them when
Speaker 1: they ask you how you're doing, you might say good.
Speaker 1: A level up from gray rock is something called yellow rocking,
Speaker 1: a term that was actually developed by Tina Swithin, who
Speaker 1: was a guest on this podcast. And Tina developed this
Speaker 1: idea of yellow rocking, and the yellow I think is
Speaker 1: only because she actually likes the color yellow. She's like
Speaker 1: it was brighter than gray to her, So there's no
Speaker 1: magic mystery around the yellowness of it. But because Tina's
Speaker 1: work is so much in co parenting, she said, it's
Speaker 1: probably not healthy for a child to see a parent
Speaker 1: being so yes, no and flat. It could actually be
Speaker 1: unsettling for a child. Yellow rock is still relatively minimal engagement,
Speaker 1: but a little bit of bringing your own flare into it,
Speaker 1: like hey, yeah, great, hope you have a good time.
Speaker 1: There's a little bit more emotion and you know, did
Speaker 1: you have a good weekend? Like you can actually ask
Speaker 1: those kinds of questions and it doesn't seem as confrontational.
Speaker 1: Another term that's been developed actually with somebody I have
Speaker 1: worked with on this before, and she works in tech,
Speaker 1: and she said, well, you should call it firewalling, and
Speaker 1: I actually thought that was also a great communication strategy.
Speaker 1: Firewalling is when you think about what a firewall is
Speaker 1: on your computer or on your device, it's meant to
Speaker 1: protect the information going out and the information coming in.
Speaker 1: And what she was thinking and what sort of punched
Speaker 1: it out to mean is that when you're firewalling with
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person, you're not going to want to give
Speaker 1: them sensitive information, right the same way you wouldn't put
Speaker 1: like your social secure a number into some website that
Speaker 1: could take your information. You make sure it's a secure
Speaker 1: at sight. It's a similar thing that you're not going
Speaker 1: to share your vulnerabilities or something about you that could
Speaker 1: be used against you. But a firewall also protects what
Speaker 1: comes in with a narcissistic relationship. We can be very
Speaker 1: careful about what we put out and that good boundaries,
Speaker 1: so we don't let a lot of that toxic stuff in.
Speaker 1: So that combination of stuff is the whole sort of
Speaker 1: spectrum of low and low contact. But in Carmen's question,
Speaker 1: she's saying specifically dad's a narcissist. Sounds like she really
Speaker 1: wants to cut down her contact with him, But that
Speaker 1: does that mean he won't see my kids either? And
Speaker 1: this is where and throughout this episode, I want to
Speaker 1: highlight this issue that we cannot take such a black
Speaker 1: and white approach to no contact. It may very well
Speaker 1: be if Carmen feels, for example, that a relationship with
Speaker 1: their grandfather may not necessarily be a bad thing for
Speaker 1: these kids, or she doesn't want to stop them from
Speaker 1: having it, she may figure out ways of dropping them off,
Speaker 1: having a very sort of a quick goodbye, making sure
Speaker 1: it's on days when maybe they all have an organized
Speaker 1: activity to do. So, Carmen can definitely minimize her contact
Speaker 1: to almost nothing, very little in between contact, and then
Speaker 1: perhaps still the kids could have that relationship. Be very
Speaker 1: very careful. Any of you who may have children and
Speaker 1: then there's grandparents and extended family about ever saying nope,
Speaker 1: my kids can have nothing to do with you, and
Speaker 1: to do that from an angry place. I fully understand
Speaker 1: the anger, but my eye is on your kids. What
Speaker 1: you don't want is for those children down the line
Speaker 1: to say, how come I never got to have an
Speaker 1: experience with grandparents or aunts and uncles or whomever it
Speaker 1: may be, Because those potentially could sometimes be decent relationships.
Speaker 1: That will be its own other episode because it's complicated,
Speaker 1: but really tread lightly there and think through your situation.
Speaker 1: In some cases you might say no, this is a
Speaker 1: dangerous person for my kids, then absolutely honor that. But
Speaker 1: in this case, if Carmen feels that she does want
Speaker 1: her dad to have contact with her children, but she
Speaker 1: herself needs to really set down a very very very
Speaker 1: hard boundary with her dad, there are workarounds. Will it
Speaker 1: be one hundred percent no contact, No, because there has
Speaker 1: to be coordination, but that Carmen doesn't have to have
Speaker 1: deep or conflictual conversations with her father. In our second question,
Speaker 1: Angelica asks how do you actually go no contact? Do
Speaker 1: I tell my brother I'm no longer speaking to him,
Speaker 1: or do I just stop answering his texts without explanation? Angelica,
Speaker 1: you're asking the question for the ages here, which is
Speaker 1: not just about no contact, but the how of no contact.
Speaker 1: Any of you who know my work, you know I've
Speaker 1: always said, never call a narcissistic person out, and never,
Speaker 1: in very black and white terms, tell them this is
Speaker 1: what I'm about to do, because what they tend to
Speaker 1: do is, in a way, you don't want to give
Speaker 1: him your playbook, and they're going to almost view that
Speaker 1: as game on as Oh, you think you're going to
Speaker 1: go no contact with me, Well, I'll show you now.
Speaker 1: Some people would say, if Angelica doesn't tell her brother
Speaker 1: she's going to go no contact, doesn't that mean she's
Speaker 1: just ghosting him? Not entirely. First of all, ghosting is
Speaker 1: kind of having its minute in the sun for a while,
Speaker 1: where like ghosting is bad, that's a very antagonistic behavior.
Speaker 1: But for some people, if a relationship is toxic enough,
Speaker 1: it may actually be a little bit safer to kind
Speaker 1: of fade away because that sort of goodbye conversation won't
Speaker 1: serve much of a function. It's probably going to end
Speaker 1: up in more harm for the person who wants to
Speaker 1: go no contact, So it's going to be a case
Speaker 1: by case situation. I often tell people one of the
Speaker 1: best ways to go no contact is a bit of
Speaker 1: a fade. You're no longer initiating any communication with them.
Speaker 1: You're not reaching out to them, You're not responding to
Speaker 1: nonsense text you know how you do and how's your day.
Speaker 1: You may still respond to factual texts like do you
Speaker 1: have that this, especially if you have something that they
Speaker 1: actually need or someone else needs, You may respond to those,
Speaker 1: but there's going to be very very little further engagement,
Speaker 1: and if none of those sort of necessary texts are happening,
Speaker 1: then again there's just sort of a slow, slow fade.
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets tricky is that initially the person
Speaker 1: you're going no contact with is going to escalate. Hello,
Speaker 1: I've been trying to reach you. Where are you? Question mark?
Speaker 1: Question mark, question mark, emoji, emoji, voice, memo, voice, memo
Speaker 1: voice note, more emojis. They're going to keep coming at
Speaker 1: you because they're used to you responding to them. It's
Speaker 1: actually not that bizarre that they would want to know
Speaker 1: if you were to round up. If Angelica was to
Speaker 1: go to her brother and say, you know what, I've
Speaker 1: decided it's healthier for me to not be in contact
Speaker 1: with you. I would be willing to bet you a
Speaker 1: thousand bucks. Then Angelica's brother is going to come back
Speaker 1: at her with some gaslighted, cruel, manipulative response. So in
Speaker 1: most of these cases, a gradual fading out without a
Speaker 1: sort of I am never talking to you again kind
Speaker 1: of a thing is the better way to go. It'll
Speaker 1: be pretty clear, I mean, especially if there's a last
Speaker 1: conversation that you had with someone was very conflictual, very problematic.
Speaker 1: You've heard the apologies one hundred times before, and you
Speaker 1: just fade away. This is a lot easier if you
Speaker 1: do not live near this person, so if they live
Speaker 1: far away, you're not in regular contact with them. If
Speaker 1: you are in regular contact, the gradual fate is almost essential,
Speaker 1: because it's a little bit strange to have daily communication
Speaker 1: with someone and then just disappear. Since this is a family,
Speaker 1: Angelica can easily anticipate that her brother may very well
Speaker 1: try to use other family members to get to her.
Speaker 1: How come you're not responding to your brother's text. Your
Speaker 1: brother keeps asking me why you won't respond to him.
Speaker 1: That's the triangulation. Angelica could respond to that person and say,
Speaker 1: it's all good, how are you doing? You know this
Speaker 1: actually doesn't relate to you, so don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: But you can see it gets messy, however, making the
Speaker 1: big strong I am going no contact with you. I
Speaker 1: never recommend that. In our next question, THEO says, I've
Speaker 1: seen the term gray rocking a lot on social I've
Speaker 1: tried it, but it seems to be making things worse
Speaker 1: in my situation. Is that normal? Oh, THEO, you just
Speaker 1: said a mouthful. I'm so glad we got this question
Speaker 1: because this is exactly what happens, not only with no contact,
Speaker 1: but also with Gray Rock. You have to remember, for
Speaker 1: the narcissistic person, you are a source of supply. They're
Speaker 1: not listening to you. You are a source of response,
Speaker 1: you're a source of validation, you're a source of something
Speaker 1: to do. But they are not really listening to you
Speaker 1: unless it works for them. So if you disengage, if
Speaker 1: you won't spar with them, because remember, the narcissistic person's
Speaker 1: pretty much singular motivation in a relationship is power, control, domination. Right,
Speaker 1: they want to run the show. So if you're not
Speaker 1: communicating the way they want, they're losing some of that
Speaker 1: power and control and they do not like it. So
Speaker 1: Gray Rock really puts a narcissistic person on their back heel.
Speaker 1: They do not like it. Initially, a lot of people
Speaker 1: have told me, just like THEO asks, I went Gray
Speaker 1: Rock and things have gotten worse. They're baiting me, they're
Speaker 1: saying terrible things to me. It's like they're trying to
Speaker 1: get a rise out of me. Because remember Gray Rock
Speaker 1: is very, very unemotional. That's why I'm not as big
Speaker 1: a fan of it. There was a time when I
Speaker 1: was like gray Rock, but then I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: I was seeing more and more and more people were
Speaker 1: getting a lot of blowback. This is why yellow Rock,
Speaker 1: I think, is a better strategy. If you're going to
Speaker 1: have a low contact sort of an approach, then it
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like you've gone so flat. And I think
Speaker 1: people who go gray Rock are also more vulnerable to
Speaker 1: sort of the kind of like the mockery, Oh so,
Speaker 1: what does your therapist tell you not to talk to me?
Speaker 1: What is this? What is this whole thing? And they'll
Speaker 1: really sort of try to minimize what you're trying to do,
Speaker 1: which in essence is trying to protect yourself. So when
Speaker 1: you go gray rock, when you go no contact, you
Speaker 1: almost guarantee there's going to be an escalation, and that
Speaker 1: escalation can be really, really painful. They may keep pushing
Speaker 1: up the volume on the baiting where they're really going
Speaker 1: at things that matter to you that hurt you. They
Speaker 1: may be things about you, they may be things about
Speaker 1: your kids, they may be things in your life, beliefs
Speaker 1: that you hold that are really important to you. And
Speaker 1: then what you may find is that you almost snap.
Speaker 1: You're like, how could you say that? And now they've
Speaker 1: broken you out of your gray rock and they're satisfied.
Speaker 1: They're like, Okay, I'm cool. You're not. You're losing your mind.
Speaker 1: I guess you're the one who's unhinged and I've got
Speaker 1: it together. And then you're even angry at yourself. One
Speaker 1: thing I want to tell everyone about gray Rock, be
Speaker 1: kind to yourself. If you decide to go that way
Speaker 1: and they bait you and you kind of blow up
Speaker 1: at them, don't say, oh my gosh, I can't manage this,
Speaker 1: I'm so bad at this. You're great at this. It's
Speaker 1: not easy to hold your ground on either gray rock
Speaker 1: or no contact. Try some yellow rocking, Try a gradual
Speaker 1: sort of coming out. Don't be so much with a
Speaker 1: flat They're still going to push back because they want
Speaker 1: their usual banter with you. But be prepared that if
Speaker 1: you do go gray rock or no contact, there is
Speaker 1: going to be an escalation. Things are going to see worse. Now.
Speaker 1: What will happen is if you can white knuckle it,
Speaker 1: you'll come around the bend. And what will happen is
Speaker 1: you'll actually kind of be no longer interesting to them.
Speaker 1: It's they're baiting you. You're not taking the bait they're
Speaker 1: talking to you, you're not responding. They need more supply,
Speaker 1: and after a week or two or even month, maybe
Speaker 1: if you're no longer supply, they're going to move on
Speaker 1: to new supply. But that's a long time to endure
Speaker 1: the kind of again, the antagonism and the manipulation. But
Speaker 1: theo's experience is universal. So if any of you are
Speaker 1: struggling with an experience of when you go gray rocking
Speaker 1: or no contact, I'm here to tell you it's totally normal.
Speaker 1: One thing to also be clear on when it comes
Speaker 1: to narcissistic supply is narcissistic supply isn't just praise and
Speaker 1: applause and validation and Instagram likes. Narcissistic supply can be
Speaker 1: also what we consider sort of we'd usually considered negative
Speaker 1: or bad stuff, but actually getting into an argument with them.
Speaker 1: Narcissistic people are fighters. They like the fight. The lack
Speaker 1: of empathy in some ways makes it so they're willing
Speaker 1: to go on the attack. Now, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: They're thin skinned and probably more sensitive than any of
Speaker 1: us are, and so when they're hurt they lash out.
Speaker 1: More So if you get a zinger in there, they're
Speaker 1: going to come at you, and in a way, that
Speaker 1: idea that they could win the fight is a source
Speaker 1: of supply for them. So be aware that in this case,
Speaker 1: your supply may not just be that you're praising them.
Speaker 1: That shit may have sailed long ago, but you may
Speaker 1: be this source of conflict that almost becomes like a
Speaker 1: little psychological boxing sparring workout, And you don't want it,
Speaker 1: but they do because that's really helps them feel powerful.
Speaker 1: In this next question, James asks very simply, how do
Speaker 1: I know it's time to go no contact? I wish
Speaker 1: there was a little ping you heard in your head
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is it. Ask anyone who's ever
Speaker 1: gone no contact, and they'll say I just knew. They
Speaker 1: would say, it's gotten to the point where this relationship
Speaker 1: is harming me. I ruminate about it. I feel sick
Speaker 1: before seeing them, I feel sick after seeing them. I
Speaker 1: feel sick while I'm with them. You really really will
Speaker 1: feel that. I'm going to tell you personally, some of
Speaker 1: my no contact experiences were a person said something so
Speaker 1: hurtful that violated my values. That were personal attacks. There
Speaker 1: were bells you could not unring that something in me
Speaker 1: just sort of died, and I thought, nah, this is
Speaker 1: simply just not good for me. And so I know
Speaker 1: for me personally, and I think for many people, no
Speaker 1: contact is spurred on by someone saying something that was
Speaker 1: very cruel or unforgivable. No contact, you often will know,
Speaker 1: is again more than anything, it's harm. Now, there's some
Speaker 1: cases that are obvious harm, like if there was physical
Speaker 1: violence or physical threats, that feels much more in your
Speaker 1: face and very clear, like this is not even a
Speaker 1: safe place for me anymore, or this person has put
Speaker 1: me in dangerous situations that will be more obvious. But
Speaker 1: in many narcissistic relationships, stuff is subtle, and the subtlety
Speaker 1: is what throws people off, and many people will think, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel uncomfortable, maybe I'm too sensitive. Sadly, this is
Speaker 1: why it can take a while for people to fully
Speaker 1: give in to say this is just not good for me.
Speaker 1: And this podcast and anything we talk about related to
Speaker 1: narcissism is a place for me to tell you this
Speaker 1: is not good for you, this will never be good
Speaker 1: for you. But we were never given permission to be
Speaker 1: able to say a toxic relationship is actually harming our health.
Speaker 1: And so when it comes to no contact, what you
Speaker 1: might also feel is that, because there's no sort of
Speaker 1: aha moment, you may experiment with it. You might find that, Okay,
Speaker 1: I cannot I feel sick, I cannot do this anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm not listening to this anymore. And you go no
Speaker 1: contact for maybe a month or six weeks or even
Speaker 1: two weeks, and then somehow you get pulled back in.
Speaker 1: Please don't view those as fails. I feel like that
Speaker 1: no contact practice almost gives you a chance to build
Speaker 1: your muscle when it comes to being hoovered or sucked
Speaker 1: back in. It helps you build your muscle to see
Speaker 1: what it feels like to not have this person around,
Speaker 1: to learn new ways of communicating, to holding your ground.
Speaker 1: So no contact is not often a all in process.
Speaker 1: It's often a series of false starts, if you will,
Speaker 1: and over time you'll find that, Okay, after two weeks,
Speaker 1: I talked to them again. We went exactly where we
Speaker 1: were before. The other thing I also recommend is journaling.
Speaker 1: It can really be helpful, even if you make a
Speaker 1: brief note in your phone, like Okay, the last six
Speaker 1: times I talked to this person, they publicly shame to me,
Speaker 1: humiliate me, said really unacceptable things. Memory is a funny thing.
Speaker 1: It'll often courten off the things we don't want to remember.
Speaker 1: So if you write it down and say, okay, the
Speaker 1: last six times this happened, maybe it's time not to
Speaker 1: do this anymore. A combination of all that helps, But again,
Speaker 1: there's no magic ding in the sky that you hear.
Speaker 1: It's a process. But pay attention to your body. If
Speaker 1: you feel sick at the thought of even seeing this person,
Speaker 1: or you feel sick after you talk to this person,
Speaker 1: no contact maybe something that you want to start considering.
Speaker 1: One of the big risks in trying to figure out
Speaker 1: when to go no contact is that you may be
Speaker 1: waiting for that proverbial line in the sand to be crossed.
Speaker 1: Right if they use this kind of language, if they
Speaker 1: were to ever say this, if they were to ever
Speaker 1: raise hands against me, then I will know I'm out.
Speaker 1: The struggle becomes And this is something that's really nefarious
Speaker 1: about narcissism. Somehow they know how to fly right under
Speaker 1: that line in the sand, like they don't quite cross it,
Speaker 1: but they flirt with it. And if you get too
Speaker 1: stuck on your line in the sand, over time, you
Speaker 1: may endure a lot of emotional abuse but not quite
Speaker 1: get to that line that you made a promise. If
Speaker 1: that happens, if I had a dollar for every person
Speaker 1: who ever said to me in a narcissistic relationship, if
Speaker 1: I find out they're cheating on me, or if they
Speaker 1: ever hit me, I'm out. I'm like, Okay, So thirty
Speaker 1: years of having your reality denied and being emotionally abused
Speaker 1: doesn't qualify. But a one night stand in Vegas would
Speaker 1: be enough to get you out of this mess, you know,
Speaker 1: So that kind of line in the sand stuff. I
Speaker 1: understand how some people feel like, Okay, now I know
Speaker 1: I can go no contact or get out of this.
Speaker 1: But because sometimes that line never gets reached, sometimes for
Speaker 1: even years or decades, be very careful with that, because
Speaker 1: you may get so wedded to the line that you
Speaker 1: miss the accumulated abuse that you are enduring. In our
Speaker 1: next question, Pamla asks is no contact forever or should
Speaker 1: I revisit it every few months. I love how this
Speaker 1: question was asked because it gets at this idea of
Speaker 1: calibrating no contact, and I think in some ways might
Speaker 1: make no contact feel like a more realistic strategy for folks,
Speaker 1: if you really were to embrace no contact as I
Speaker 1: am never going to speak to you again, in a way,
Speaker 1: it's like a death, and it may be the death
Speaker 1: of someone you're not I mean, you just don't want
Speaker 1: them bothering you anymore or harming you anymore. But it's
Speaker 1: not that you're wishing that. The foreverness of it all
Speaker 1: is a lot existentially almost to get our heads around.
Speaker 1: So this idea of can I recalibrate my no contact,
Speaker 1: I would say you don't need to put yourself on
Speaker 1: a deliberate schedule of every four months or six months
Speaker 1: or every year that you'd have to revisit it, but
Speaker 1: rather make a promise to yourself to say, I'm going
Speaker 1: to let life unwind. I'm going to make sure I'm
Speaker 1: taking care of me, that I'm listening to my intuition,
Speaker 1: and then if a moment comes up where it feels
Speaker 1: like there is contact happens and it's appropriate and I
Speaker 1: feel safe communicating back, then that's fine. Again. I'm going
Speaker 1: to share a personal story where I did go no
Speaker 1: contact with someone and then there was a reason this
Speaker 1: person had to reach out to me they never would
Speaker 1: have otherwise, and the person had hurt me. I went
Speaker 1: no contact. They reached out to me with a piece
Speaker 1: of information. The piece of information was actually quite shocking.
Speaker 1: I could have not responded, but the piece of information
Speaker 1: hurt both of us. The news hurt both of us.
Speaker 1: So I responded and I said, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for sharing that. That was so tragic, and I even
Speaker 1: want to bridge further. I'm like, I hope all of
Speaker 1: you are well. And the person responded and said yeah, actually,
Speaker 1: da da da, and gave me some more details of
Speaker 1: the thing that I was being emailed about and said
Speaker 1: we are all fine. Didn't ask about me, which was
Speaker 1: great because I was able to say, like, and then
Speaker 1: we're going back to no contact. So it's a dance.
Speaker 1: It's very much a dance. Well I have contact with
Speaker 1: this person again, Probably not, you know, unless some other
Speaker 1: tragedy befalls us. But that was such a unique kind
Speaker 1: of a thing. So this idea of is it forever
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. Think of families when, for example,
Speaker 1: you've gone no contact with a person for a long time,
Speaker 1: a tragedy happens in the family, and there's a funeral
Speaker 1: where people are going to the hospital. It happens and
Speaker 1: you may revisit and say, you know what, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna let this person back in my life, but I
Speaker 1: feel much more healed now, so I can handle this.
Speaker 1: I can say a few perfunctory words to them, and
Speaker 1: then I can move forward because I have healed. I
Speaker 1: want you to view no contact in some ways as
Speaker 1: a bit of bed rest for your soul. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is nobody goes no contact lightly.
Speaker 1: You have been so harmed by this person that by
Speaker 1: going no contact you're not having to endure this pain
Speaker 1: and these attacks for a while. Through that rest, that
Speaker 1: soul rest, as it were, you actually heal some more.
Speaker 1: And through that healing you might find that this person
Speaker 1: has lost their power. So I am not a fan
Speaker 1: of a person saying I'm going to revisit this on
Speaker 1: an interval, but instead trust yourself to say, I'm going
Speaker 1: to heal. I am not going to have this harmful
Speaker 1: conflict in my life, and I'm going to see where
Speaker 1: life goes. And someday, if I see them, I may
Speaker 1: talk to them. I may not. I have worked with
Speaker 1: folks who have said I want no contact until the
Speaker 1: person passed, I never saw them again. I've had Others
Speaker 1: say it went ten years and something intervene the story.
Speaker 1: I told you it was like five or six years,
Speaker 1: and then something forced that person to contact me again.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes after that brief contact, you may go
Speaker 1: no contact again. So I think that it's a personal
Speaker 1: process for everyone. But no contact doesn't necessarily mean forever. However,
Speaker 1: typically it does mean for the foreseeable future. We will
Speaker 1: be right back with this conversation. So in my next question,
Speaker 1: Seth is asking, my wife is considering going no contact
Speaker 1: with her dad, how can we expect him to react
Speaker 1: if we do cut ties. So in Seth's question, it's
Speaker 1: a difficult to answer because I don't know how much
Speaker 1: contact they had with her father to begin with. If
Speaker 1: this is someone they were seeing every day or every
Speaker 1: weekend or multiple times a month, obviously there's going to
Speaker 1: be a stronger reaction than if it was someone they
Speaker 1: only saw sporadically. It may not even be noticed. It
Speaker 1: also comes down to how much attention you're drawing to it.
Speaker 1: If Seth and his wife they don't have that much
Speaker 1: contact with her father, if they slowly fade out, it
Speaker 1: may not go as noticed. However, if there's a lot
Speaker 1: of regular contact. It's definitely, definitely going to get noticed.
Speaker 1: The main pushback a person would get in this case
Speaker 1: Seth's wife with her father. The main pushback people won,
Speaker 1: and I think at some level we could even empathize
Speaker 1: with it. Is a narcissistic person wants to know why,
Speaker 1: why are you cutting ties with me? No matter what
Speaker 1: answer you give them, they're going to have an argument
Speaker 1: against it, and invariably they're going to gaslight you and
Speaker 1: tell you you're the one with the problem. You're too sensitive,
Speaker 1: that's not true, that never happened. You need to grow up.
Speaker 1: What kind of person does this? You'll be sorry. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a lot, even if you gave the most thoughtful
Speaker 1: answer with documentation. These are the texts, here's the voicemails,
Speaker 1: here's the emails, here's your conduct, Here's what happened, here's
Speaker 1: the thing you did. They're going to feel that you
Speaker 1: have no right, you have no right to a life
Speaker 1: separate from them, right, that's the nature of the narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1: So you going no contact is you exerting your individual,
Speaker 1: autonomous self and that doesn't work in a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1: So you can expect him Seth. You can expect him
Speaker 1: to react badly. You can expect that he may very well, again,
Speaker 1: not knowing the specifics of their case, you can expect
Speaker 1: that he may speak badly about both of you to
Speaker 1: other family members. Heck, Seth, he might even blame you.
Speaker 1: Looking for a fall person for this might say, oh,
Speaker 1: this is this Seth's fall. Ever since my daughter married Seth.
Speaker 1: There may be triangulation in that way who's to blame.
Speaker 1: There may be smear campaigns, everyone in the family being told, look,
Speaker 1: how terrible you know Seth and Seth's wife are. The
Speaker 1: reaction will be swift, it'll be strong if there's money involved. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if there was any kind of family trust
Speaker 1: or a state, it's very likely that Seth then his
Speaker 1: wife will be cut off from all of that may
Speaker 1: be left out of lines of communication. There may be
Speaker 1: passive aggressive stuff where other people in the family might say, oh, whoops,
Speaker 1: forgot to tell you that such and such family member
Speaker 1: was really sick, and Seth's wife might have still liked
Speaker 1: that family member. So you've got to remember. The mistake
Speaker 1: people make is that they think they can localize their
Speaker 1: no contact. It's just going to be about this one person.
Speaker 1: None of us are an island. So whether it's a family, friend,
Speaker 1: group place, if you try to go no contact with
Speaker 1: one person, it's going to send these sorts of lines
Speaker 1: out to all of the other relationships around you. Those
Speaker 1: people are affected too, and more often than not, they're
Speaker 1: angry at the person who went no contact because you're
Speaker 1: the one disrupting the status quo. And in this case,
Speaker 1: it might very well be that Seth's father in law
Speaker 1: is the one who's viewed as the person who's suffering
Speaker 1: or the victim, versus Seth's wife, who clearly has gone
Speaker 1: through something that has led her to want to go
Speaker 1: no contact. In our next question, Mark asks, It's been
Speaker 1: many years since I've had contact with my ex, but
Speaker 1: I still have anxiety about what the interaction would be
Speaker 1: if I ever cross paths with him. What do you
Speaker 1: recommend in the situation where you come face to face
Speaker 1: with your narcissist after you go no contact? Oh, Mark,
Speaker 1: I feel you. Let me tell you. I can think
Speaker 1: of two narcissistic people from my past where if I
Speaker 1: still think I saw them, i'd feel sick. Let me
Speaker 1: tell you right now, and I see survivors go through
Speaker 1: this all the time. Some people will say, I am
Speaker 1: still scared of this person. This brought up such strong
Speaker 1: feelings for me. I'm afraid of how I'll feel. I'm
Speaker 1: afraid I'll have a panic attack. I'm just afraid. And
Speaker 1: that's not an uncommon kind of a response, so just
Speaker 1: want to normalize that from the jump. There are some
Speaker 1: people will say, you know what, all this time no
Speaker 1: contact has done me a world of good. I feel
Speaker 1: much stronger, I feel really solid in my life. If
Speaker 1: I ran into them, I ran into them. Most people
Speaker 1: will say if they've gone no contact with someone, especially
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person, they will feel a little that sort
Speaker 1: of autonomic nervous system stomach discomfort, tightened throat feeling when
Speaker 1: you see someone, your eyes get a little bit wider,
Speaker 1: that whole thing. I would say that if you know
Speaker 1: this could happen, your best tool is preparation, something you
Speaker 1: can do if you're randomly run into someone in a
Speaker 1: grocery store. That stuff happens. And I have had many
Speaker 1: a client leaven entirely full grocery cart and run back
Speaker 1: to their car saying I can't I absolutely can't do
Speaker 1: this perfectly fine response, But if you know you're going
Speaker 1: to see them. It might be again family get together.
Speaker 1: It could be a work event, anything where you know
Speaker 1: you could be prepared, then prepare That preparation may look
Speaker 1: like breathing exercises just to kind of get yourself centered.
Speaker 1: It may be self talk like I can give myself
Speaker 1: permission to step away, give yourself permission to step away,
Speaker 1: And that might mean sort of if you're lucky, you
Speaker 1: see them before they see you, and it may be
Speaker 1: you say okay, I can go, I can walk away
Speaker 1: if they come up to me, have a response. You've
Speaker 1: sort of planned out, Hi, how are you? You know,
Speaker 1: literally practice it in the mirror, because some people say, okay,
Speaker 1: I've got my words, so now I know I can
Speaker 1: pull on them, and so you're prepared in that way.
Speaker 1: Ideally you're at such an event with someone else. I
Speaker 1: remember working with somebody who knew they were going to
Speaker 1: an event and they knew there was a very strong
Speaker 1: probability they were going to run into a narcissistic X.
Speaker 1: And while they'd been no contact I was like three
Speaker 1: or four years, they were still really uncomfortable about it.
Speaker 1: So they had a friend with them and they said,
Speaker 1: would you just stick with me all evening, and they
Speaker 1: said it just made such a difference to know that
Speaker 1: there was someone with me, and that when they finally
Speaker 1: crossed paths, it almost lightened it a little bit to
Speaker 1: have someone at their side they knew had their back.
Speaker 1: So that's another form of preparation. Now, if there's no preparation,
Speaker 1: that's a whole nother game. A lot of people will
Speaker 1: say it threw them off for the day. They felt
Speaker 1: a sense of panic, they felt very uncomfortable again, normal reactions.
Speaker 1: So remember in the moment, you can just say hi
Speaker 1: or oh, I'm surprised to see whatever all that physiological
Speaker 1: stuff's going to happen, Get yourself out of that situation
Speaker 1: as soon as you can. It could be a restroom.
Speaker 1: Ideally it would be outside, but that may not always
Speaker 1: be possible, and give yourself a minute again. It might
Speaker 1: be breathing, it might be centering, It might be splashing
Speaker 1: cold water on your face, whatever it takes. It might
Speaker 1: be calling a friend. You're not going to believe what
Speaker 1: just happened. Can you talk me through this? Whatever you
Speaker 1: need to do to get yourself back to center and recognize.
Speaker 1: Probably for the rest of that day you're going to
Speaker 1: be very uncomfortable and treat it almost like a little
Speaker 1: bit of a sick day, if you can, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I need to take it slower today. Your body is
Speaker 1: having a very real reaction to something, so you have
Speaker 1: to be prepared for that. So this way no contact
Speaker 1: is tricky. Low contact means you still have some contact
Speaker 1: with them, so it may not be a shocking. But
Speaker 1: if you go no contact and they come out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: and it may not even be that you run into
Speaker 1: them in person, it may be that their name shows
Speaker 1: up in your inbox, it may be that someone shares
Speaker 1: something with you and their picture is in it, you'll
Speaker 1: be completely surprised. But the in real life meeting, that's
Speaker 1: where it gets really really overwhelming, And so be prepared
Speaker 1: for the overwhelmed and for those of you. So there's
Speaker 1: a bright lining to this particular question. Some of you
Speaker 1: might say, you know what, I saw them and I
Speaker 1: didn't feel anything, to which I say, bravo, I'm so
Speaker 1: happy for you. That's what healing looks like, and it happens.
Speaker 1: I mean, i'd say probably a good forty fifty percent
Speaker 1: of the time people say yeah, I didn't feel anything anymore.
Speaker 1: If anything, I was like, oh, okay, I got past this.
Speaker 1: So that reaction for many people will eventually come, but
Speaker 1: for some of you this can be really destabilizing. And
Speaker 1: preparing as much as you can when you have that
Speaker 1: luxury and when you can't, getting yourself out of the
Speaker 1: situation and getting yourself back in alignment, giving yourself a
Speaker 1: chance to breathe and get centered back in your body
Speaker 1: is everything. In our next question, MICHAELA says, I'm one
Speaker 1: month into cutting ties with my sister and I'm consumed
Speaker 1: with guilt. My best friend says I should just call
Speaker 1: her and make peace. Help me. Okay, So the guilt
Speaker 1: when you cut ties with somebody who's significant in your life, siblings,
Speaker 1: is a great example of that. It's overwhelming. I'm going
Speaker 1: to come back to my initial point. Almost nobody goes
Speaker 1: no contact lightly. I think of no contact as an iceberg.
Speaker 1: All this stuff has been happening for a really long time.
Speaker 1: Most of the iceberg is under the water. It's been
Speaker 1: happening and happening and happening, and you've been rolling up
Speaker 1: and continuing to have contact with this person, and then
Speaker 1: when you finally go no contact, it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of that iceberg we can see above the water. So again,
Speaker 1: you didn't come to this decision lightly. But that said,
Speaker 1: it is quite possible that the other person is telling
Speaker 1: you they don't like this. Why, I'm so sorry, I
Speaker 1: didn't mean it. Give me another chance. You know, you're overreacting,
Speaker 1: And because especially if you're trauma bonded, which many people
Speaker 1: are in narcissistic relationships, especially in deep relationships like siblings,
Speaker 1: the trauma bonded piece of you wants to go right
Speaker 1: to justify, rationalize the betrayal blindness piece that we've talked
Speaker 1: about on this podcast, Like, nah, I just conveniently forgot
Speaker 1: that and want to put yourself back into that situation
Speaker 1: because we want to maintain that status quo. It's really
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable to think about rocking the boat, to think
Speaker 1: about changing things in our life in such a dramatic way,
Speaker 1: and that trauma bonded sense. When we try to end
Speaker 1: these relationships, it literally feels like a part of our
Speaker 1: body is being torn out of us, even if the
Speaker 1: relationship isn't good for us. In fact, especially when the
Speaker 1: relationship isn't good for us, we literally feel like a
Speaker 1: part of ourselves is being torn out why narcissistic relationships
Speaker 1: only work because we've made up a big story about them,
Speaker 1: So we're pulling our own narrative out of us. That's
Speaker 1: why it hurts more. As a result of that, though,
Speaker 1: feeling guilt is a very common reaction when people set
Speaker 1: a no contact or a heavy heavy heavy boundary or
Speaker 1: a really really go low contact, and because of that
Speaker 1: that guilt, if the narcissistic person plays upon that, most
Speaker 1: people will succumb. What did I say about no contact?
Speaker 1: It's successive approximations, it's fits and starts. You go, you
Speaker 1: pull back, you go, you pull back. So if a
Speaker 1: Mikayla you decide you know what I can't, I got
Speaker 1: to go back and talk to my sister, then I'd
Speaker 1: say do it. Go talk to your sister. You've practiced
Speaker 1: this a little bit. And if your sister does it again,
Speaker 1: which if your sister's narcissistic, she probably will, now you've
Speaker 1: done this once, you can try again. The problem I've
Speaker 1: got with what's happening to Mikayla is the friend. When
Speaker 1: a best friend weighing in like this, especially if the
Speaker 1: best friend does not understand the breath and depth of
Speaker 1: what may have happened between Mikayla and her sister is
Speaker 1: actually not okay, because when Mikaela's already struggling with guilt
Speaker 1: and grief and loss, a best friend trying to put
Speaker 1: like a band aid solution on it, Oh, come on,
Speaker 1: just make peace. Is like when people tell you to
Speaker 1: forgive the narcissistic person. It doesn't work. It's very difficult
Speaker 1: to forgive someone who repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly has
Speaker 1: violated your trust and your sense of who you are,
Speaker 1: and sometimes even your sense of safety in the world.
Speaker 1: So for someone else to roll up and say, just
Speaker 1: make peace, it might even be what convenience is the
Speaker 1: best friend? If if the best friend is friends with
Speaker 1: both Mikaela and her sister, that kind of triangulation takes
Speaker 1: what's already an incredibly difficult process and makes it feel
Speaker 1: impossible for you. It might be talk to the best
Speaker 1: friend and say please don't cutting off some of those
Speaker 1: spaces for ourselves and saying that no, this isn't okay.
Speaker 1: You know, please don't step into this. You don't understand
Speaker 1: what this is. It can sometimes feel like a less
Speaker 1: threatening space for Michaela. There's probably a lot of really
Speaker 1: primal wounds around the sister, but with the best friend,
Speaker 1: maybe not so much. The best friend should have your
Speaker 1: best interests at heart, and above all else, a best
Speaker 1: friend should give you the space to make decisions that
Speaker 1: work for you, for you to be an individual and
Speaker 1: not do what might very well, for example, convenience the
Speaker 1: best friend, or allow the best friend to maintain their
Speaker 1: worldview of everybody getting along. Because we can talk about
Speaker 1: no contact really clinically and really surgically, But Mikhaela's question
Speaker 1: reminds us that some of what makes no contact so
Speaker 1: difficult are the other people who feel entitled to weigh
Speaker 1: in on something that really isn't their place to weigh
Speaker 1: in and make into a triangulated mess. So, Michaelee, if
Speaker 1: you do end up talking to your sister again, it's
Speaker 1: the nature of the process and you just sort of
Speaker 1: get more information and make decisions. But it may be
Speaker 1: time to have a conversation with the best friend to say,
Speaker 1: the measure of love is to give me the space
Speaker 1: to proceed in a way that feels right to me
Speaker 1: and to entrust me with my own life. In this
Speaker 1: next question, Sarah asks my ex partner and I have
Speaker 1: children together, so no contact isn't an option. How do
Speaker 1: I manage communicating with my co parent while protecting myself?
Speaker 1: So Sarah is asking the question that people in every
Speaker 1: co parenting situation ask, which is no contact is not
Speaker 1: an option for co parents. Definitely not if you have
Speaker 1: any minor children, and honestly, probably not until your children
Speaker 1: are well into adulthood. Right because stuff goes on, graduations
Speaker 1: are happening, and weddings are happening. It's very difficult to
Speaker 1: go no contact, even when you have adult children. It's
Speaker 1: easier than to go low contact. Tina Swidden's work on
Speaker 1: Yellow Rockery is sort of the gold standard for how
Speaker 1: to communicate with a co parent and a narcissistic ex.
Speaker 1: Keep it light, keep it disengaged. Remember that doctor Rominy
Speaker 1: rule I've always given you don't go deep, don't defend,
Speaker 1: don't engage, explain, don't personalize. That's part of sort of
Speaker 1: the low contact framework, which is just don't go there,
Speaker 1: don't get into it with them. You can ask the
Speaker 1: very very basic questions about the weather, it's been raining,
Speaker 1: the kid's soccer game was great. Did you hear that
Speaker 1: the fourth graders are going to have a new coach,
Speaker 1: the soccer games are now going to be Sundays at three,
Speaker 1: and said Sunday's a one. And you can say those
Speaker 1: things with like, hey, can you believe that they have
Speaker 1: a new soccer coach, that they've moved a soccer coach.
Speaker 1: You could probably get a good minute of conversation out
Speaker 1: of that. Here's what you got to remember. The parental
Speaker 1: communication obviously is to keep the trains running on time.
Speaker 1: But there's a secondary issue here, which is at least
Speaker 1: modeling something that resembles healthy communication to your children. Your
Speaker 1: kids are already rattled by their parents not being together,
Speaker 1: but it's really really rattling if the communication is tense
Speaker 1: and antagonistic and imbalanced. Now, there's only so much you
Speaker 1: can do if your ex partner's really coming at you,
Speaker 1: no matter how gracefully yellow rock you are. But it's
Speaker 1: a calibrated dance where you try yellow rock, and they
Speaker 1: may be sort of like, yeah, I don't care, Yeah sure,
Speaker 1: new soccer coachue, Yeah yeah, sure whatever. And at least
Speaker 1: your children are witnessing you giving it your best shot.
Speaker 1: So what they're not seeing is two parents going at
Speaker 1: each other. But you really trying to communicate in a
Speaker 1: way that you'd want your children to communicate with someone. Now,
Speaker 1: the other thing you want to keep in mind is
Speaker 1: that if you're co parenting, and especially if it has
Speaker 1: been a particularly antagonistic divorce and co parenting process, to
Speaker 1: use the parent in communication apps, whether that's My Family
Speaker 1: Wizard or Talking Parents, This is something that if it's
Speaker 1: not already part of your parenting agreement requirement, is something
Speaker 1: that should be part of it. The way the record
Speaker 1: is kept because it confirms there's red receipts, there's no
Speaker 1: workarounds in it. The entire text message record is considered
Speaker 1: to be admissible into any kind of ongoing court proceedings
Speaker 1: or anything like that. It keeps things clean and there's
Speaker 1: a certain accountability to that. That might be a way
Speaker 1: to keep some of the communication going on, some of
Speaker 1: the logistics that children don't need to hear about. But
Speaker 1: when it comes to how you actually speak to them
Speaker 1: in real time, using yellow rock, letting your children see
Speaker 1: that you're bringing your best self forward, hard as it is,
Speaker 1: you might have your fist clench and then when nobody's looking,
Speaker 1: scream into a pillow. That's fine. Kids don't need to
Speaker 1: see that. This is why the co parenting communication is
Speaker 1: such a challenging space. I'm going to jump into adult children, though,
Speaker 1: because I don't think we talk about that enough. It's
Speaker 1: almost like something magical doesn't happen when your kids turn eighteen.
Speaker 1: There's still stuff going on. Like I said, there's moving
Speaker 1: into dorms, or there's people moving away to do military service,
Speaker 1: or there are weddings or engagement parties or baby showers.
Speaker 1: All this stuff is going on, and it's quite possible
Speaker 1: that both you and their co parent are very much
Speaker 1: involved in this. The same rules apply. You're gonna have
Speaker 1: to yellow rock yourself all the way through this. The
Speaker 1: nice thing is when all kids are adults and kind
Speaker 1: of doing their own thing, you're certainly not texting about
Speaker 1: school plays and soccer pickups and school pickups that need
Speaker 1: fades away, but you're still going to have to roll
Speaker 1: up to them at whatever these functions are on your side.
Speaker 1: You can keep your side of the street clean by
Speaker 1: yellow rocking these communications and always remembering that the thing
Speaker 1: you're trying to do is making sure that whatever this
Speaker 1: event is in your adult child's life, that you are
Speaker 1: bringing your best self so they can have a good day.
Speaker 1: So in this next question, Jenna asks, this is the
Speaker 1: sixth time I've gone no contact with my ex in
Speaker 1: two years. It usually lasts three to six months. Then
Speaker 1: he wears me down, my addiction to him wins, and
Speaker 1: I let him back in the door. Now, about five
Speaker 1: months ago, I changed my phone number. I am racked
Speaker 1: with guilt because I didn't tell him I was going
Speaker 1: no contact. Will things get easier? And why do I
Speaker 1: have such a problem with him thinking I did this
Speaker 1: because I don't love him? So, Jenna, in this question,
Speaker 1: you know, we're really getting more deep into the issues
Speaker 1: of trauma bonding as well, right, and trauma bonding being
Speaker 1: that sort of almost unbreakable connection that's formed between a
Speaker 1: person and usually the other person has some sort of antagonistic,
Speaker 1: difficult personality, where it's the alternation between good and bad,
Speaker 1: the highs and lows, the chaos, the associating love with chaos,
Speaker 1: and the justifying and the rationalizing and the sheer confusion
Speaker 1: that these relationships are. And So the sixth time you've
Speaker 1: gone no contact in two years in the last three
Speaker 1: to six months, So let's start there, assuming that this
Speaker 1: is an unhealthy narcissistic relationship, and you're able to do
Speaker 1: that for three to six months at a time. That's
Speaker 1: actually not a bad thing. So let's sort of clock
Speaker 1: where the winds are in this one and that actually
Speaker 1: that's good. That's not easy to do. Then you say
Speaker 1: something I'm gonna call you out on here. You say,
Speaker 1: my addiction to him wins. You're not addicted to him, Okay.
Speaker 1: So this is something that actually it's languaging that a
Speaker 1: lot of people use around narcissistic relationships, and I don't
Speaker 1: agree with because there's a certain sort of passive element
Speaker 1: to this addiction piece that likens it to a disease,
Speaker 1: which I really don't agree with. For many people, once
Speaker 1: they really do understand what trauma bonded cycles are about,
Speaker 1: they actually get into good therapy, get good psycho education,
Speaker 1: they understand where these trauma bonded cycles come from. They're
Speaker 1: actually able to break through them. And for most people
Speaker 1: it's just really education. The fact of the matter is
Speaker 1: is that alternation between these really good days and I
Speaker 1: got to tell you, my guess is when your ex
Speaker 1: pulls you back, it's really good and because you you
Speaker 1: do have love for this person and that's the hard
Speaker 1: part about these narcissistic relationships. We still do love them.
Speaker 1: It doesn't just go away. No matter how badly they've
Speaker 1: treated us. We still love them. And that doesn't make
Speaker 1: you foolish or stupid or silly. That makes you a
Speaker 1: human being that's capable of love. Because we don't want
Speaker 1: you to lose that part of you. And so the
Speaker 1: backing and forth thing, it isn't healthy for you. And
Speaker 1: that's why therapy in a case like this is so important.
Speaker 1: But then this next piece of now you've leveled up,
Speaker 1: it feels jena to me that you really are feeling like,
Speaker 1: I've got to get out of this cycle. It's not
Speaker 1: good for me, and that's a really hard admission to
Speaker 1: make to yourself. So again I view this as progress.
Speaker 1: And you went so far as to change your phone number.
Speaker 1: Again progress not easy to do. But now you feel
Speaker 1: the sense of guilt because you actually believe that you
Speaker 1: don't want him to be hurt, thinking that you don't
Speaker 1: love him. The guilt is such a universal part of
Speaker 1: a trauma bonded relationship. I've done something wrong, right. We
Speaker 1: feel guilty when we think we've done something wrong, and
Speaker 1: so somewhere in this process, you've learned, you've been taught,
Speaker 1: you've believed that to not do whatever this person wants
Speaker 1: means that you're doing the wrong thing. Unless you're fully
Speaker 1: relenting to this narcissistic person, then you're doing a bad thing.
Speaker 1: And that's the message anyone gets in a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1: If I don't be totally what they want me to be,
Speaker 1: then I've done something bad. When we say it out
Speaker 1: loud like that, it sounds ridiculous, but that is literally
Speaker 1: how we feel. So will it get easier? As with
Speaker 1: all things, time is always our friend. That's what heals
Speaker 1: us and what's been hard for you, Jenna is three
Speaker 1: to six months and then you're back in so it's
Speaker 1: almost like to fully heal and you're putting weight on
Speaker 1: something that can't handle it right, So you get almost healed,
Speaker 1: and then boom, you go back and forth into sort
Speaker 1: of stressing that part of your psyche again, And that
Speaker 1: backing and forth thing means you aren't really quite healing.
Speaker 1: So yes, it will get easier if he cannot get
Speaker 1: in touch with you. Narcissistic people enjoy the roller coaster,
Speaker 1: they really really do. So this idea though, that you're
Speaker 1: struggling with him thinking that you did this because you
Speaker 1: don't love him, is that there's a part of you
Speaker 1: that wanted to leave this resolved. So many of us
Speaker 1: want the narcissistic person to know, actually, I did love you,
Speaker 1: I do love you, and this isn't healthy. That's a
Speaker 1: really hard thing to communicate. It goes back to those
Speaker 1: multiple truths of the narcissistic relationship I've talked about so
Speaker 1: many times, when you have to literally sit with a
Speaker 1: piece of paper and say, this was my partner. We
Speaker 1: were together for years, I really loved him. This relationship
Speaker 1: hurt me. I became depressed in this relationship. I miss
Speaker 1: him sometimes I wish we were together, But then I
Speaker 1: don't You see how that stacks up like pancakes. There,
Speaker 1: those multiple truths are when you list them out, you
Speaker 1: recognize there was never going to be a way to
Speaker 1: put a neat bow on this because if you roll
Speaker 1: up to them and say, hey, I do love you.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for a narcissistic person, they interpret that as great,
Speaker 1: then still be my supply, but they'd never say that
Speaker 1: out loud. This is going to be a process of
Speaker 1: grief for Jenna. It's like processing any kind of massive
Speaker 1: loss in your life. And for Jenna, not only is
Speaker 1: it the loss of this person, but it's the loss
Speaker 1: of this cycle. Narcissistic relationships aren't just time consuming because
Speaker 1: we're always having to do what they want, but we
Speaker 1: think about them all the time. Am I doing the
Speaker 1: right thing? Did I say the right thing? Was that
Speaker 1: my fault? Ruminate? Ruminate? Ruminate? That takes up a lot
Speaker 1: of mental real estate. When these relationships go away can
Speaker 1: sort of feel like a lot of empty space up there,
Speaker 1: and that emptiness is literally experienced as an emptiness. But
Speaker 1: that emptiness is where you can flourish, where you get
Speaker 1: to be. You explore your aspirations, be in healthy relationships,
Speaker 1: be supported in your growth, and not devote yourself to
Speaker 1: basically writing a really toxic roller coaster. My conversation will
Speaker 1: continue after this break. In this next question, Kelly writes,
Speaker 1: I am considering going from low contact to no contact
Speaker 1: with my narcissistic mother, as even her small presence in
Speaker 1: my life feels like a constant threat. My two sisters
Speaker 1: and I all want to do it, but the image
Speaker 1: of our mom dying alone feels too heavy to bear.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm stuck in an impossible mind. Either
Speaker 1: I let her continue stealing my life, or I live
Speaker 1: with the shame of feeling responsible for someone aging miserably
Speaker 1: and alone. How on earth do I navigate this? So
Speaker 1: Kelly so much here. First of all, I'm so sorry
Speaker 1: because this is as complicated as it gets. This transition
Speaker 1: from low contact to no contact, even how Kelly laid
Speaker 1: it out here, is actually how it sometimes does happen.
Speaker 1: It's not often that people go from every day, hey,
Speaker 1: we're in a relationship to boom. It is often a
Speaker 1: bit more of a transition. It almost feels like it's
Speaker 1: happening at a level that's under our consciousness, but it's
Speaker 1: slowly happening. The one thing that's again in supportive Kelly
Speaker 1: here is that she has two sisters in this with her,
Speaker 1: and they agree with her. That's a real blessing because
Speaker 1: it's many family systems like this. You'll have siblings that
Speaker 1: don't agree with this decision, so it's adding yet another
Speaker 1: level of distress to this kind of decision making. I
Speaker 1: don't know if the mom is older and sick right now,
Speaker 1: I'm reading this question, Kelly as though your mom isn't
Speaker 1: sick right now, but someday will be older and alone
Speaker 1: and potentially dying. You can't live into that future. It
Speaker 1: sounds like right now that your mother's presence in your
Speaker 1: life isn't good for you. This is where I'm saying
Speaker 1: no contact isn't just a communication tool, like get away
Speaker 1: from the narcissist. It's also a tool of healing. And
Speaker 1: given that your mom isn't at the precipice of dying,
Speaker 1: that she's kind of living her life and just making
Speaker 1: yours a mess, no contact at this point in your
Speaker 1: life may allow you to heal, feel stronger in yourself,
Speaker 1: gain that sense of autonomy and individuation and independence and
Speaker 1: a life separate from her that she's not weighing in on,
Speaker 1: that she's not making a mess of And as you
Speaker 1: do that, and as you build that core of yourself
Speaker 1: down the line, when that some day comes that she
Speaker 1: is aging miserably, you may actually feel that you've developed
Speaker 1: that core psychological strength, that sense of yourself, that authentic
Speaker 1: you separate from her, where you feel like you can
Speaker 1: show up as a passionate person. You know, whatever luck,
Speaker 1: bad luck has assigned this woman to be your mother,
Speaker 1: and as a compassionate person say Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 1: step in. I'm going to do what needs to be done,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, and listen. It may not be
Speaker 1: a protracted experience like that. You don't know yet. What
Speaker 1: you don't want to do is take the work that
Speaker 1: you could be doing now on your healing and growth
Speaker 1: and project into an unknown future of how she is
Speaker 1: going to age and die. Your priority right now can
Speaker 1: be you, and if you do do this work, you
Speaker 1: may find that as the future unfolds and your mother
Speaker 1: is in this situation of aging alone, you may then
Speaker 1: feel that you have the bandwidth to step up in
Speaker 1: a way that feels authentic and compassionate to you and
Speaker 1: allow you to participate in whatever your mother's late in
Speaker 1: life or end of life looks like. That will help
Speaker 1: you stave off regret. Let you show up in a
Speaker 1: way that feels right to you. But in order to
Speaker 1: do that, you need some time to take care of you,
Speaker 1: Kelly and your situation. What I don't know is if
Speaker 1: your mom is actually quite sick now, if your mom
Speaker 1: is aging and this is a very current situation, you
Speaker 1: may not have that time. However, there is a place
Speaker 1: in this, and I've heard this happen from clients I've
Speaker 1: worked with, in people I've talked to over the years,
Speaker 1: where they'll say, you know what, I am an empathic person.
Speaker 1: I will do whatever I need to do with the
Speaker 1: realistic expectations of knowing she will not say thank you,
Speaker 1: she will have no gratitude, she will probably criticize everything
Speaker 1: I do. I know this, but many people grapple with
Speaker 1: the question of once this person passes, how do I
Speaker 1: want to look back on this story. This isn't about
Speaker 1: your mom in some ways, this is about you, And
Speaker 1: I don't know what your answer to this is. Some
Speaker 1: people might say, I'll be damned if this person how
Speaker 1: they've really really thrown such a wrench and invalidated my
Speaker 1: life in so many ways. I'll be damned if as
Speaker 1: their final act they leave me feeling like I'm an
Speaker 1: uncompassionate person. But if you are going to roll up
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, this is my responsibility, I'm going to
Speaker 1: step in here and in these next six months, year,
Speaker 1: however long, this end of life or older life period
Speaker 1: looks like that you be in therapy, that you have support,
Speaker 1: that you expect absolutely nothing in the realm of gratitude.
Speaker 1: You may even find out, and this is a wake
Speaker 1: up call. People will say, Okay, at the end, I
Speaker 1: really did show up for this older parent, and then
Speaker 1: find out when it comes time to wills and estates
Speaker 1: and all that nothing was left to you. You have
Speaker 1: to be prepared for that. The legacy here is not
Speaker 1: the parent having some form of deathbed revelation. The legacy
Speaker 1: here is that this person, this narcissistic parent, did not
Speaker 1: steal the core of what you know to be a
Speaker 1: compassionate inner sense of self. I think the struggle in
Speaker 1: situations like this is that so much of a narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationship is being out of our head. What if this happens,
Speaker 1: what if? When this happens? What if when that happens?
Speaker 1: What what if? And healing happens in the here and now.
Speaker 1: If you can work on the healing in the here
Speaker 1: and now when those what ifs roll up, you're going
Speaker 1: to be in a psychological position to better be able
Speaker 1: to manage it. Knowing who you are the narcissistic relationship
Speaker 1: steals from you your sense of who you really are.
Speaker 1: The more of that you can get back to, even
Speaker 1: when you're throwing a curveball, you feel more prepared psychologically,
Speaker 1: no matter how toxic it might be, to roll into
Speaker 1: it again to handle it. But if you stay in
Speaker 1: it and keep wondering, like I don't know what to do,
Speaker 1: I'm frozen because I don't know what's going to happen
Speaker 1: down the line. None of us do. But the one
Speaker 1: thing we do know is if you put the time,
Speaker 1: the effort, the resource into healing and taking yourself back now,
Speaker 1: the dividends will be that down the road, no matter
Speaker 1: how you have to deal with this narcissistic person, you're
Speaker 1: gonna have a lot more bandwidth to do it. So
Speaker 1: Stacy asks, I know it's not really anyone's business, but
Speaker 1: it's very awkward and sometimes triggering when people find out
Speaker 1: I haven't spoken to my mom in five years? What
Speaker 1: do I say to respectfully shut down the follow up questions?
Speaker 1: So here we're getting into the whole no contact shame, right.
Speaker 1: There's a whole movement out there that is about estrangement shaming,
Speaker 1: like no one should have to be a strange. And
Speaker 1: if you're a strange and there's something wrong with you,
Speaker 1: or you threw in the towel too quick, or anyone
Speaker 1: should be able to push through. And ah, I think
Speaker 1: the people writing that don't understand from narcissism. Nobody wakes
Speaker 1: up one day and says, you know what, it's Tuesday.
Speaker 1: I feel like getting a strange from my family. This
Speaker 1: has got to be one of the most ghastly journeys
Speaker 1: a person goes through because they have spent years, if
Speaker 1: not decades, trying to make it work within a family,
Speaker 1: making themselves smaller, denying all of their needs, giving up
Speaker 1: their aspiration, denying their true selves, all of that to
Speaker 1: avoid what feels like the annihilation of a family estrangement.
Speaker 1: So already, I think one of my problems with the
Speaker 1: whole area of estrangement is the way people make it
Speaker 1: feel like people are going into this frivolously. I've been
Speaker 1: practicing from Ust twenty five years, and I can tell
Speaker 1: you this, I have never ever seen anyone go into
Speaker 1: the idea of a family estrangement frivolously. That I promise
Speaker 1: you so. The other thing is, though we really really
Speaker 1: pathologize people who may be a strange from a family,
Speaker 1: who may have gone no contact. We view them with shame.
Speaker 1: We never stop to ask. Nobody stops to ask if
Speaker 1: this person has distance, cut off, gone no contact with
Speaker 1: their family. What was the family like, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's what's wrong with you? You won't talk to your family.
Speaker 1: I've actually talked to more than a few people will say, well,
Speaker 1: if I find out someone's a strange from their family,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to date them. Why
Speaker 1: because they might have healthy boundaries. I really struggle with
Speaker 1: this idea of pathologizing people who make this really really
Speaker 1: painful choice, because what you're really doing is it's almost
Speaker 1: like a double harm. They've already been harmed by having
Speaker 1: endured a difficult family system, then making a painful decision,
Speaker 1: and then being told by society that there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with them. And this is a burden that many survivors
Speaker 1: of narcissistic families face and keep in mind too, even
Speaker 1: since childhood. Kids who come from narcissistic families face some
Speaker 1: sense of shame because they know their family system at
Speaker 1: some level isn't working normally. So there's a shame, especially
Speaker 1: if they spend time with peers who do come from
Speaker 1: happier families or cousins or something like that. So when
Speaker 1: somebody asks, some people are willing to say it's none
Speaker 1: of your damn business. But I know that that's a
Speaker 1: stance that a lot of people are not able to take.
Speaker 1: It really comes down to how much information you want
Speaker 1: to share with someone, and that's going to vary situation
Speaker 1: to situation. If you just met someone, or if it's
Speaker 1: a workplace or a place where boundaries are a little
Speaker 1: bit different, you may not want to give somebody sort
Speaker 1: of a fuller picture of it. If you do know
Speaker 1: someone better or you're getting to know them. There's absolutely
Speaker 1: no reason that, with absolute strength and pride, you cannot
Speaker 1: lean into your truth, which is this was a harmful situation.
Speaker 1: I grew up in a situation that was psychologically harmful.
Speaker 1: I did everything I could, and when I had the
Speaker 1: awareness that this was actually harming me and impeding any
Speaker 1: sense of self and my growth, I had to step away.
Speaker 1: Can everyone hear that? No. I wish we lived in
Speaker 1: a world where they could. But the reason we're in
Speaker 1: a world full of enablers and narcissistic people is because
Speaker 1: a lot of people can't hear it. So this is
Speaker 1: where that concept that I talk about all the time
Speaker 1: when I talk about healing from narcissistic abuse of discernment
Speaker 1: that idea to determine again, it's that fire walling of it,
Speaker 1: all right, who gets to hear? What? How much of
Speaker 1: my truth do I share with anyone? Once you build
Speaker 1: that discernment muscle, it is such an important part of
Speaker 1: ongoing healing from narcissistic relationships, and in terms of setting
Speaker 1: boundaries and maintaining no and low contact. The fact is
Speaker 1: nobody's entitled to hearing your full story. You decide who
Speaker 1: gets to hear it. That requires trust building, spending enough
Speaker 1: time with someone to find out, and as time goes on,
Speaker 1: you may then, almost like letting out the rope on
Speaker 1: a boat, give more and more line of the story
Speaker 1: to a person who may be able to be entrusted
Speaker 1: empathically and compassionately with your story. And so respectfully, I
Speaker 1: think that you can say that if somebody says, oh,
Speaker 1: you haven't spoke your mom in five years, what's that about?
Speaker 1: Initially a great place to start be None of this
Speaker 1: has been easy, and it has been really long road
Speaker 1: to hear. It's hard for me to get into it.
Speaker 1: If you don't mind, There's so much else I want
Speaker 1: to talk about, so suffice it to say, it's just
Speaker 1: one of those heavy burdens I'm always gonna have to
Speaker 1: carry that will shut most people off that you're acknowledging
Speaker 1: it was hard that you don't want to spend the
Speaker 1: next hour talking about it. Thanks for asking, and can
Speaker 1: we go back to our previously scheduled conversation, but letting
Speaker 1: people know, yeah, this is a thing, it was very,
Speaker 1: very difficult, and then take the conversation where you want it.
Speaker 1: But that, I think the one thing we have to recommend,
Speaker 1: not just for trauma survivors, but survivors of narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1: You share yourself on your time frame. Nobody else is
Speaker 1: entitled to your stories on any other schedule but yours.
Speaker 1: And in this next question, Alina asks, I went no
Speaker 1: contact with my sister for ten years, and I felt
Speaker 1: so much better. Now my father's very sick and I
Speaker 1: need to get involved. But I feel like a failure
Speaker 1: because I broke my note contact. What do I do? Oh, Allina,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked this question because a lot
Speaker 1: of people treat no contact like it's almost like sobriety,
Speaker 1: Like I am nine years no contact, I'm ten years
Speaker 1: no contact. They're not related. Again, this is not an
Speaker 1: addiction model. Folks, right, no contact is a if you
Speaker 1: will communication and boundary tool, so more of a sort
Speaker 1: of a last resort tool that you're engaging in not
Speaker 1: to punish someone, not to make a point, but to
Speaker 1: protect yourself and heal. So in those ten years of
Speaker 1: no contact, you felt better, which meant it was a
Speaker 1: really good call on the no contact. Doesn't it protect
Speaker 1: yourself and heal? You got better, as often happens, But
Speaker 1: then life intervenes and now you have to have contact
Speaker 1: with your sister. I've had so many clients over the
Speaker 1: years say, oh, doctor Romeny, I fail after five years,
Speaker 1: one year, I've failed in no contacts? Like what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? Failed? There's no prize at the end
Speaker 1: of this, Like you don't get points for more days
Speaker 1: of no contact. It is a means to your healing.
Speaker 1: So in ten years though a lot of healing may
Speaker 1: have taken place, and it may very well be you
Speaker 1: see the sister. You have radical acceptance, realistic expectations. You
Speaker 1: fully disengaged, you know how to be discerning. You're not
Speaker 1: going to share too much, You're not going to go
Speaker 1: deep all the stuff you know to do, show up
Speaker 1: for your family, be present around what's happening in your
Speaker 1: family with your father, and then get out and in fact,
Speaker 1: an experience like that, it may actually teach you that
Speaker 1: you have healed, that the power your sister once had
Speaker 1: over you has really really shifted. But it's not meant
Speaker 1: to be that, Oh my gosh, i've broken no contact
Speaker 1: after ten years, this is going to be set back.
Speaker 1: First of all, you're not going to go back to
Speaker 1: ten years ago. Some people will say being back in
Speaker 1: that situation again after all those years did rattle me
Speaker 1: more than I thought. Well, then that's a wake up call.
Speaker 1: Therera be trauma informed work, whatever other kinds of daily
Speaker 1: practices you're engaging in to kind of help you south,
Speaker 1: because your sympathetic nervous system is going to be a
Speaker 1: bit of a hello, what's happening? This was a threat?
Speaker 1: Why is this back? But you hopefully, by ten years
Speaker 1: have learned some techniques to manage that. So in most cases,
Speaker 1: I think people will feel like after ten years, especially
Speaker 1: ten years later and feeling better that they're able to
Speaker 1: handle it. The entire circumstance may be a reminder that
Speaker 1: I hope it's another twenty years. I don't want to
Speaker 1: see this person again, you may find that, Okay, this
Speaker 1: isn't bothering me anymore. I don't really want to talk
Speaker 1: to this person, but I think I can handle family
Speaker 1: get togethers. But also that you give yourself permission to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay in a hotel. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to stay in the family house. I'm going to come
Speaker 1: in for twenty four hours and I'm going to get out.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do what I need to do in
Speaker 1: whatever way I can, but not involve my cister. You
Speaker 1: can be discerning, you can sort of problem solve this
Speaker 1: in a way where you're not getting sort of pulled
Speaker 1: into the invalidating trauma bonded muck the way you were before.
Speaker 1: So I think that the idea that going back into
Speaker 1: contact after years of no contact is a fail is
Speaker 1: patently wrong. This was healing time you felt better. Breaking
Speaker 1: your no contact doesn't mean that she's won and you've lost.
Speaker 1: A lot of people think, OHF I break no contact,
Speaker 1: it means they've won. This isn't about winning or losing.
Speaker 1: This is about your health, your healing, and your growth.
Speaker 1: And in this next question, Colin writes, in I am
Speaker 1: going no contact with my mother, but she's really good
Speaker 1: with my kids. Even if I don't have a relationship
Speaker 1: with her, should I allow my kids to so this Again,
Speaker 1: we've sort of touched on this question before, but I
Speaker 1: don't think it can be repeated enough. No contact is
Speaker 1: not meant to be punitive. No contact is not meant
Speaker 1: to make some big point. No contact is about healing
Speaker 1: and growth. Okay, that's the core of this. So going
Speaker 1: no contact to punish a parent who actually, strangely enough,
Speaker 1: maybe a decent grandparent, but for whatever their reasons were
Speaker 1: and their narcissism was and how it showed up, was
Speaker 1: not a good parent to you, or in small doses,
Speaker 1: is able to be a solid grandparent or whatever. Take
Speaker 1: a long look at the situation, sit down and figure
Speaker 1: out number one, what's healthiest for your kids, and number two,
Speaker 1: how to construct a situation like this so it also
Speaker 1: promotes your healing and growth. Unfortunately, I think in so
Speaker 1: many ways we live in an all or nothing society.
Speaker 1: Give me a magic pill, show me a way to
Speaker 1: just make this all go away. There's no all going away.
Speaker 1: Pain is part of the human experience, and so for Colin,
Speaker 1: it's also the true north in this And I've talked
Speaker 1: about true north before. The true North in this is
Speaker 1: what's good for your kids. Your children are your responsibility,
Speaker 1: and if their children children, they don't know how to
Speaker 1: make these decisions for themselves. If you feel like a
Speaker 1: relationship with your mother is going to be a safe
Speaker 1: place for your kids, an enjoyable place for your kids,
Speaker 1: make it about your kids, not about your mother. If
Speaker 1: you feel like, well, my mom's the one who's benefiting
Speaker 1: from being with the kids, but the kids actually don't
Speaker 1: like it, well there's your answer. But if the kids
Speaker 1: really do seem to be benefiting, at least at this
Speaker 1: age and stage of their lives, from this relationship with
Speaker 1: a grandparent, then foster that. But you don't have to
Speaker 1: have a lot of contact. In fact, the kids can
Speaker 1: be the focus of the conversation. However, if your mother
Speaker 1: is being inappropriate in terms of suggesting that you're parenting
Speaker 1: wrong in any of those things, then you may want
Speaker 1: to revisit. Tighten up the kind of time together, figure
Speaker 1: out different ways to do the drop off so you
Speaker 1: can have less contact with your mother but she's still
Speaker 1: having contact with the children. But keep your lens on
Speaker 1: what's good for your children. In this situation. More than
Speaker 1: a few people who have felt very, very hurt by
Speaker 1: narcissistic parents have wanted to punish their parents, saying, I'll
Speaker 1: be darned if you're going to have any access to
Speaker 1: my kids. I fully empathize and understand that, but there's
Speaker 1: a risk you could end up having your own children
Speaker 1: saying why didn't you allow me to create a relationship there?
Speaker 1: That wasn't all your call to make And now I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm later in life and I missed out
Speaker 1: on something. So you have a lot to balance when
Speaker 1: you have children and you had narcissistic parents, you may
Speaker 1: want to make sure that the visits are cordoned off.
Speaker 1: You may not let the kids stay for a whole weekend,
Speaker 1: but it might be an evening or a few hours.
Speaker 1: You might find that as your kids get older, it's
Speaker 1: at that age where you're a narcissistic parent. So did
Speaker 1: the toxic patterns come up? There's no one size fits
Speaker 1: all here, But one of the keys is to always
Speaker 1: be very intentional and plugged into your own motivations, seeing
Speaker 1: the situation holy and then above all else, when it's
Speaker 1: your children who are involved, trying to make choices that
Speaker 1: are the best for them, not a place to avenge
Speaker 1: your own pain, but a place to facilitate growth for
Speaker 1: the next generation. These questions on no contact just wow,
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping what you've learned today is that it's
Speaker 1: not that simple. If it was as simple as just
Speaker 1: going no contact, I don't know that anyone would be
Speaker 1: bothered by narcissistic folks. But these are complicated relationships, complicated
Speaker 1: situations with people we have very complicated feelings about. So
Speaker 1: whether it's no contact, whether it's low contact, or any
Speaker 1: mix of the above, recognize that this is a dynamic
Speaker 1: and fluid situation. There are no wrong answers. But the
Speaker 1: thing that you want to remain focused on is your
Speaker 1: healing and growth. Whatever solution works today, it may change
Speaker 1: in a few years, and you have to trust that
Speaker 1: with each day you're getting stronger. Thanks again,