WEBVTT - Jeff Tweedy's Songwriting Master Class 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.320 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.320 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.440 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.200 notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:28.400 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:33.360 Enjoy the episode. Wilco's Jeff Tweety has written hundreds of 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:37.600 songs over his thirty year career. For some artists, that 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:40.760 would be an impossible feat, but Tweet's cracked his own 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:46.400 songwriting code and he's ready to share it. With Tweety's 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.680 work ethic, it's no surprise that eight months into the Pandemic, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:52.920 he has a new solo album to share. This song, 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.240 Guess Again, is from his new project Love Is the King. 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.760 More surprising, though, is that he's found the time to 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:04.080 document the creative process behind his prodigious output, and a 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.959 book titled How to Write One Song, Tweety lays out 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.440 in his own workman like approach to songwriting. The book 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.600 reveals how he comes up with melodies, lyrics, and chords, 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.880 and even more importantly, how he finds the inspiration and 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.759 the time to write. Jeff Tweety spoke to Malcolm Gladwell 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.120 about his new book, explaining why he believes songwriting isn't 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.280 a mystical endeavor but something that can be honed with practice, 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.080 and at the end of the episode, he plays us 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.199 through the writing of one of his new songs, step 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:39.600 by step. This is broken record liner notes for the 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:49.160 digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell with Jeff Tweety. 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.920 Can I start with this tantalizing little anecdote. You're telling 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.400 your book that when your dad got mad, he would 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.920 go into the basement and write poems. And all I 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.960 could think of is this is the Jeff Tweedy origin story? 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:08.120 Pretty much? I think so, Yeah, it was your father musical. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:14.399 My father was a frustrated entertainer. He got my mom 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:19.400 pregnant in high school and they dropped out and he 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.320 got a job on the railroad, and I think his 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.200 whole life, I think that he wished that he had 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:31.200 had an opportunity to be on stage somehow. But he 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.640 was not particularly musical, but he was entertaining, that's for sure. 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:40.079 But he aspired to be musically always. He liked to sing, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.320 He drank a lot, and he got up at every 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:48.760 wedding and embarrassed us, terribly humiliated us in lots of cases. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.720 But where's poems with any good? Yeah? I know my 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.480 dad was brilliant, you know, they weren't. I don't think 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.880 that they were good and like a Robert Frost way 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.480 or or but they might have been good in a 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:12.200 Jimmy Stewart kind of way or Ogden Nash maybe at 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.639 the high end of his aspirations. But you know, um, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.880 he wouldn't have had any of those references other than 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.799 Jimmy Stewart. So but he did. You know, he made 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:29.000 un requited forays into indulging his musical side many times, 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:33.280 like he bought an organ from the mall that the 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.440 salesman claimed would teach him how to play, and he 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.000 would just sit there and watch the lights flash as 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:43.120 it would play itself, and drink a beer. It was. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.880 I have a lot of memories of that. But the 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.400 poem he wrote, the poems when you said when he 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:56.480 was angry, Uh, that was my memory of them. Yeah, 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:01.840 and I sadly, you know, a couple of summers ago 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.440 when he passed away, we you know, we emptied out 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.880 the house, the house that I the only house i'd 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.360 ever lived in when, you know, like my parents bought 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.160 when my mom was pregnant with me, and I found 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.560 a lot of his homework from when he taught himself 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:24.680 or basically learned computing early on, uh, math homework and 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.400 stuff like that. But I didn't find any of the 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:30.440 notebooks that had any of the poems. So I suspect 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.120 that he just got it off his chest and then 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:37.160 threw him away, you know, Yeah, I just I just 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:43.040 love these kinds of generational parallels. It's almost like, you know, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.720 if if if you were on the couch, I would say, 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.280 you're like tweety two points. No, you're like the do over, 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:57.000 the frustrated musician, who's who's writing these essentially lyrics sort, 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.440 and then you're you You You've come along and you've 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.120 turned it into an art. Well, yeah, I mean, there's 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.240 there are tons of parallels that I I mean, I 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:11.839 mean it's disturbing as you get older how much you 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.080 start to look like your parents, and I look like 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.800 exactly like my dad. And you know, I think he 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.880 suffered from a lot of the same mood disorders that 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:24.719 I've dealt with in my life. But he clumsily but somehow, 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.840 you know, as far as employment goes, and far as 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.080 far as like not having worsening consequences, which would be 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:36.400 typical of alcoholism, he managed to medicate himself clumsily for 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.640 his entire life, you know, for anxiety. I'm sure he 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:46.320 had anxiety and depression. And yet and he did instinctively 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:48.680 seem to have turned to some of the same things 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.640 that have provided some solace for me that weren't unhealthy, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.280 you know, like getting things off his chest. And you know, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:01.200 I was indulged a lot, perhaps because I was a 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:07.039 do over. When did you write your first song? Do 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.160 you remember the first song I remember writing? And I'm 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.359 pretty sure that there were songs before this, But the 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.560 first song I remember writing was a song called Your 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:23.279 Little World, and it was about a girl and her 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.840 not having enough room in her world for me. And 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.039 how old you when you write it? It's maybe thirteen fourteen. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.920 You don't remember it, do you? Your little World's much 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.000 too small? Oh, I ain't got no room at all. 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.240 It's so yeah, I was. I can remember. I could 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.239 play it. Actually. One of the weird things is is that, uh, 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.080 this local musician who went by the name Joe Cammell 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:55.080 a band Joe Cammell in the Caucasians. They actually recorded 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.760 that song and and made a single out of it. 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:04.680 Really it is it exists, Yeah, yeah, is because I 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.159 was I was this kid that hung out with all 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.520 like at the record stores and hung out at the 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.880 you know, with around other musicians when I could get 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.080 near them, and I would always I write songs. And 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.600 this guy in this band, Joe Cambell, said hey, let 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.720 me hear one of your songs. And I went over 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:24.800 to his house and I played him this song. He said, oh, 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.880 that's great, I'm gonna record it. We're gonna like go 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:32.680 to record this song, and he did, It's fantastic. When 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.640 do you think you wrote your first good song? Well, 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.800 I honestly don't think that that one was terrible. I 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.920 think it's you know, it's it's not great, but it 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.520 was it was good enough for somebody else to want, 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.680 you know, see some potential in it. Um the first 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.040 song I liked that I wrote was probably screen Door 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.360 on the first um Uncle Tupelou record. You know, that's 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.680 the first one where I felt like I had said 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:05.680 something that felt true to me and that I didn't 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:11.520 necessarily have anybody else's song to convey that idea. I 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.600 always look at it like I'm trying to make songs 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.360 and a new song for me to sing that someone 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.840 hasn't already written. So that one was the first one 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:21.880 that felt like that, How old are you when you 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:30.360 write that song? Sixteen sixteen seventeen? Yeah, so pretty, it's funny. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:36.200 I just I have heard musicians of various kinds answer 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.800 that question over the years, and there's a whole set 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.120 of them who, like, you know, ten years passed between 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.280 the first song they write and the first one they like. Yeah, 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:49.800 but you, you you have a much less um ambivalent 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.800 relationship to your early songwriting. One of the things I 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:58.160 feel like I've had some shame about in my life 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:04.920 is how shamelessly I love stuff that I make. And 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.080 I think, over time, I've really made peace with it 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.360 because I think that that's like kind of beautiful and 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.440 it's kind of one of the things that's allowed me 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.240 to grow. I don't I don't tend to keep liking 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.520 things that I've made. I tend to get pretty dissatisfied 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.880 with them over time. But when I initially even when 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.080 I figure out how to play something on the guitar 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.040 that someone else has done, I feel like I invented it. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.439 I have this like, really you know, sort of delusional 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.880 relationship with the joy that I take from making something, 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.600 and I think that's that that really comes naturally. So 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.840 a lot of times, my favorite song is always the 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.760 one I'm working on. Almost invariably, I was like, Wow, 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:54.120 this is a this is really great, and it dissipates 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.520 over time. But but I've always felt like that, does 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.360 that make you a bad judge of your own song writing? 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.240 I think it does, and that's that's part of the 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.400 reason that I've had to learn a lot of different 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:09.120 ways to get out of the get my ego out 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.480 of the way, Like I allow things to just state 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.240 for a lot longer, or put them away and forget them, 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.520 forget about them so that I can come back to 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.600 them with a little bit more objectivity. But in general, 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.119 I think it's just kind of the spirit of it 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.920 is what comes across a lot of times, and that 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.360 that that, in a lot of cases, is enough, because 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.800 you know, not every song has to be the greatest 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.040 song that's ever been written, but it's sure it helps 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.520 if you feel like it is at the moment in 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.320 the moment. You know, you describe in this lovely book 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.480 You've just done, how to write one song. Yeah, you 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:53.479 describe a series of exercises songwriting exercises, and also describe 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.679 a kind of what a songwriting day should look like. 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.600 And I was curious before we go into that, how 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.040 long did you I mean, if that's the pattern of 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.800 song writing you practice, now, how long have you been 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.199 doing it that way? Did you always have this kind 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.720 of very structured way about writing music. No, I think 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.160 that I've as I've gotten older. I think one of 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.680 the things I've really had to learn how to do 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:21.240 is provide myself structure because I work in a profession 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.160 that doesn't have a lot of structure outside of touring, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.200 which is extremely structured and routine. You know, but being 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.800 home has always been a little bit dangerous for me 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.720 in terms of my mental health. Though the routine has 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.080 been something I've had to learn and has helped me 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.000 a quite a bit. That being said, I don't remember 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.960 a time where I haven't felt like a kind of 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:53.760 a nagging sense all day that I should be making something, 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.960 or that I should be learning something, or I should 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.680 be reading something, or I should be listening to something 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:06.040 and that tends to provide a lot of momentum to 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.280 my days. This ugly feeling that I'm avoiding almost all 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.600 the time is that I don't want to get to 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.200 the end of the day and feel like I didn't 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:19.880 learn anything, or didn't didn't make something, or just didn't 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:24.880 participate in my life in the ways that I've found 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:29.880 to be the most enjoyable and helpful to me. You 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:35.920 described this ideal songwriting day. When was the last ideal 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.120 songwriting day you had and what did it look like. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.880 It's been a while. I think the ideal day, the 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.800 last one I might have had, would have been during 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.960 the process of making the album I just really Loves 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.920 the King, where, you know, around eight o'clock at night 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.040 or something, I would have started working on a song 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:00.160 that I was thinking about recording. The next day, I 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.560 would have, you know, worked on it and played around 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:05.679 with it, maybe illuminated a little demo of it on 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.439 my phone until like maybe midnight, gone to sleep, woke up. 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.920 Probably would have finished the lyrics early in the morning 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:18.600 because that they tend to kind of un tangle themselves 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:23.280 in my sleep a lot of times, and I like 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.679 to I like to write even before I get out 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.640 of bed, you know, where I feel like I'm still 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.920 sort of you know, the judgment side of me is 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.240 still sleeping or something, you know, And I would have 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:40.000 gotten up and come to the studio, maybe worked on 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.199 that song for a little while in the studio, head lunch, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.920 maybe taken a nap, would have gotten up from the nap, 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.720 finished the song, maybe invited my younger son over to 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.800 sing a harmony vocal on it. Common practice in that 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.680 moment when I'm asking someone else like Sammy to sing 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.760 on something would be to really focus on the lyrics 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.559 and make sure they're where I want them to be. 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.000 So I would have done some revisions on that, maybe 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.560 until around five or six, and have a rough mix 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:16.320 to take home and have some dinner and listen to 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.480 records generally until I get excited about trying to make 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.240 something to beat something I just heard, some sort of 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.600 like trying to activate some competitive side of my brain, 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.120 and then start the whole process over with maybe seeing 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.480 if I could, you know, come up with another song 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.640 for the next day. So, in your ideal world, is 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.400 it a song from start to finish in that one day, 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.800 or is it is it that you have little bits 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.200 and pieces already there that you're going back and finding 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.800 and playing with. I can do a song start to 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:56.760 finish in one day, but typically there are little pieces 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.560 of raw material that have been accumulated. Yeah. I think 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.240 one of the things I might do at eight o'clock, say, 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.400 the beginning of the day I just described, would be 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.760 to go through my phone and find a musical idea 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.600 that I'm excited by that I don't know. It just 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.880 catches me enough, unaware to start dreaming about it and 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.840 start like fantasizing about where it could go or what 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:22.960 it could sound like. Do you have your phone with 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:24.680 you right now? Can you play as a musical idea 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:29.520 of the phone? Sure? Let's see. Well this one sounds 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.760 a little bit maybe a little bit more finished than normal. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.400 The tunnel at the end of the life, So that 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.240 is that Has that little bit been turned into a 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.440 song yet? Or is it just waiting? It's waiting, it's waiting. 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.280 I mean, there's and then there's stuff that's maybe I 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:25.800 don't even know what this is, just some chords I 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:32.160 thought were pretty, but yeah, there there there are dozens 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.760 or not dozens, there's probably literally hundreds of those things 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.960 in my phone. When they stack up a little bit, 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.280 I usually transfer some to the computer here at the loft, 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.560 so they're at least in a couple of places. Yeah, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.960 so I'm vastly by this process. How long might some 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.200 a little bit linger on your phone or in your 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.160 archive before you use it? Is there stuff? And if 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.040 I if we went into that, you said sometimes you 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.240 download them on at the loft, how far back would 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.040 we have stuff there from ten years ago you've never used? Yeah, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.719 I mean probably there are. I used to do it 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:10.320 on cassettes and basically I used to just leave a 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:15.320 cassette in a dictaphone old style, like what you would 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.760 have Steno would have used, or someone in an all uh, 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.560 you know, secretary pool, and I would just leave it 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.840 on the coffee table and until it filled up, and 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.440 then I'd put another cassette in. And there's there are 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:32.320 dozens of those cassettes. And like um on the Suki 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.359 ray album that I made under the name Tweetye, there's 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.320 a song on there that I finished after fourteen years. 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.920 I think it's called I'll Sing It. Was there a 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.560 little snippet of it that was the original stippet. It's 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.399 actually in the track I actually just played over the 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:55.800 cassette version. Yeah, yeah, and then and then I think 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.520 that ended up on the Summer Teeth box set that 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.840 we just put out because it was written around the 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.960 same time as Summer Teeth. Yeah, when you go back 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.960 and find a little snippet like that, do you remember 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.240 when you created the snippet or is that gone? It depends. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.720 A lot of times I don't remember at all. I 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.680 have no recollection at all of a lot of times 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.639 I don't even remember the tuning, and I have to 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.239 like sit and figure out because I use a lot 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.199 of different tunings, and I really hate it when I 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.200 don't bother to tune the guitar to a standard pitch 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.920 because then it makes it even harder to figure out 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.000 what tuning I'm in and stuff like that. So a 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.840 lot of times it's it's completely gone wherever it happened, 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.480 which is kind of I love it when that happens, 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.760 even though it can be frustrating trying to relearn it. 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.120 But then there are times where I absolutely have a 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:52.520 distinct memory of where I was and what was happening. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.679 And a lot of times that's because there are other 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.920 ambient elements that made it made their way onto the recording. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.480 I like, say, backstage and somebody and Wilco walks through 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.399 and says something, and I can I can viscerally feel 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:12.000 that that room and I'll know even what city it was. 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.680 In a lot of cases, sometimes when I'm doing it 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.919 in hotel rooms in Europe and you have the windows open. 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.160 Whenever we're fortunate enough to find a hotel that has 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.280 windows that open, you hear like people leading on at 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.800 the cafes or something like that. That's those are always 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.040 really kind of special recordings that a lot of times 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.200 mean a lot to me even without them being finished. Yeah. 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:40.480 We did an interview with Norah Jones while back now 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.880 and she was talking about how she did her song 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.760 Wintertime with You, and she was talking about this this 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.800 very process that she had some scraps, little bits and pieces, 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.240 and you had bits and pieces and you kind of 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.680 put it together to create a really beautiful song. Can 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.439 you can you because walk us through that that little 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.520 case study of this time with a twist with another 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.640 person involved, but doing seems like both of you were 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.720 doing doing the work of creativity in the same way. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.320 Is that true? Yeah? I think that well, first of all, 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.520 Norah Jones doesn't need me to help her write a song, 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.280 for sure, But but we admire each other, so there's 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.399 a there's already a kind of a base level of 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:32.080 camaraderie or something, you know. But I haven't found many 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:37.200 people that I've worked with to have just wildly different 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:42.280 approaches to it. Everybody seems to have sort of the 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:47.879 core process is sort of similar. You basically start with 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.880 something that is nothing, you know, that feels but feels 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:57.720 like it could be something, and then you basically surrender 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.080 this idea that you can't you can't do that, you 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.560 can't make something out of nothing, and you do it. 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.000 And it's really the most important part is just letting 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.640 go of the idea that it can't happen. I think, 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:16.880 and with someone else it requires a lot of waiting 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:21.280 until you both have both people have to feel comfortable 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.200 and supported enough and trusting enough to kind of throw 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.920 out ideas until you know, a light bulb goes off 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.520 in two heads at once. It's a little bit more 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.840 foolproof in a way because you have that consensus of 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.640 universality for two people, as opposed to like just trying 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.240 to imagine that everybody will like something you like. We'll 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.920 be right back with more from Jeff Tweety. After the break, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.160 We're back with more of Malcolm's conversation with Jeff Tweety. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.800 You've done an unusual amount of collaboration with other artists 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:01.760 you write for, maybe Staples. You did those beautiful Mermaid 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:05.920 Avenue albums with Billy Bragg that I are among my favorites. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.360 When you're writing with another person in mind, does it 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.600 change the way you write a song? Yeah, I think 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:18.720 it does. I honestly think that that is the thing 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.680 that I am most comfortable doing. I think it's the 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.920 thing I truly aspired to do more than almost any 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.880 other thing that I get to do. I always pictured 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.280 myself being a person that would write songs for other 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:37.240 people to sing, and Uncle Tupelo. I wanted my songs 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.560 to be sung by Jay because he had this magnificent, 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:47.560 like rich, authoritative voice, and I had this squeaky, you 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.200 know voice that I didn't feel like was quite my own, 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.959 even at the time I was struggling to find it. 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:57.400 As much as I felt great when I sang, I 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.880 just loved the idea of writing the song more than 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.120 the idea of singing it. And I still think that 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:10.199 that's where my most natural abilities lie is in helping 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.160 somebody with another with their song, like working with Nora 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:18.199 or finding something for someone to sing like Mavis. I 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:20.600 don't look at it is like I'm putting words in 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.360 her mouth. I feel like I'm just kind of helping 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:28.919 find something that she feels comfortable singing that makes sense 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.880 for her to sing. Same thing with the Woody Guthrie lyrics. 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.879 That was even more along the lines of what I feel. 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.520 I have the strongest sense about it as being something 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:43.800 that comes naturally to me because those lyrics were sacrosanct. 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:45.920 You know, they're They're like you know, you're not gonna 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:47.960 you're not gonna mess with them. They're there. You don't 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.360 even need to worry about whether or not they're good enough. 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.639 They're important for people that don't know. There were all 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.600 these lyrics at Woody Guthrie left behind that the music 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.400 was never documented or he never really made any music 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:03.600 for There's all these archival lyrics and writing that we 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.399 took and made songs out of, and with those I 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.720 would just sit and read them over and over and 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:12.280 over again until the meter would emerge. And then next 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:14.560 there would be a melody that would emerge, and a 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.080 lot of cases with Woody Guthroe lyrics, you read it 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.840 and all of a sudden a Carter Family song emerges, 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:23.760 because that's what he was actually writing his lyrics to 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:28.479 was someone else's song. I did the same thing with 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:30.760 a bunch of lyrics for Bob Dylan that never came 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.119 out because I wasn't able to be a part of 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:36.920 that process for that record that they did a couple 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:40.000 of years ago where they had a bunch of lyrics 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:43.000 that Dylan had written. It's like Elvis Costello was a 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:46.800 part of it and some of the US mumfordness. But anyway, 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.560 t Bone had asked me if I could do it, 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:52.200 and I got all these lyrics, and then my wife 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:55.520 started treatment for cancer, so I couldn't go to LA 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:57.520 for the amount of time that they wanted me to. 0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.640 But I did the same thing with those lyrics I wrote, 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:03.960 I wrote and recorded a whole record in a weekend. Like, 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.040 did you find it sort of freeing to not have 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:09.600 to do it in your own with you with your 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:12.719 own voice in mind? Yeah? I think that I just 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:19.879 struggle with allowing myself to comment on certain things that 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:24.199 I don't feel like I have the authoritative weight to 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:27.639 weigh in on, for for in terms of like Mavis 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.160 or something like that, or the things that I feel 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:35.560 like Mavis has a voice of righteousness of some you know, 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:42.840