Speaker 1: Sometimes you just have to start. You don't You don't
Speaker 1: need to know where it's reading. You welcome to the
Speaker 1: one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the
Speaker 1: importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in,
Speaker 1: garbage out, or you are what you think ring true.
Speaker 1: And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen
Speaker 1: or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 1: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf. Speaking of which, Audible
Speaker 1: is the perfect place to download the book by today's guest,
Speaker 1: Rich Role. Rich is a forty seven year old accomplished
Speaker 1: ultra endurance athlete and former entertainment attorney turned full time
Speaker 1: wellness and plant based nutrition advocate. He's a motivational speaker,
Speaker 1: a husband, father of four, and inspiration to people worldwide
Speaker 1: as a transformative example of courageous and Healthy Living in
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, which became a number one best selling
Speaker 1: author with the publication of his inspirational memoir Finding Ultra,
Speaker 1: Rejecting middle Age, Becoming one of the World's Fittest Men,
Speaker 1: and Discovering Myself. In two thousand thirteen, picking up with
Speaker 1: the book leaves off, Rich launched the Rich Role Podcast.
Speaker 1: Be sure to stick around for the end of the
Speaker 1: interview where Eric promises Rich to try his plant powered
Speaker 1: diet for the next thirty days and good luck with that. Zimmer. Hey, Rich,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Great to be here, Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me. Yeah, our pleasure. We're really excited to have
Speaker 1: you on today. Our podcast is based on the parable
Speaker 1: of the Two Wolves, where there is a grandfather and
Speaker 1: he's talking with his grandson and he says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle with each other. One is a good wolf
Speaker 1: and represents things like kindness and love and bravery, and
Speaker 1: the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like
Speaker 1: greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and
Speaker 1: he thinks and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed so I'd
Speaker 1: like to start the podcast off by just asking you
Speaker 1: what that parable means to you in your life and
Speaker 1: in the work that you do. Well. I think that's
Speaker 1: a great question to orient a podcast around. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I will tell you that I feel very qualified to
Speaker 1: speak on this subject because I know what it's like
Speaker 1: to feed feed both at different times. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that that that in a general sense, that's
Speaker 1: extremely true. And I'm a guy who at many years
Speaker 1: feeding the feeding the bad wolf, if you will. And uh,
Speaker 1: it wasn't until um I was instant for me in
Speaker 1: my experience, if left to my own devices, I'm probably
Speaker 1: gonna feed the bad wolf. And it's not until and
Speaker 1: sufficient amount amount of pain that I am catalyzed to
Speaker 1: look in the mirror and kind of perceive myself the
Speaker 1: way that I really am and and get into a
Speaker 1: place where I'm actually going to implement any kind of changes,
Speaker 1: i e. Start feeding the good wolf or I suppose
Speaker 1: trying to starve the bad wolf. Right, And maybe for
Speaker 1: our listeners, you could just spend a minute or two
Speaker 1: and could you give us the condensed version of of
Speaker 1: your of your journey. I know you do it a lot,
Speaker 1: but I think it'd be helpful for anybody who's not
Speaker 1: familiar with you. Um, I'm forty seven years old. I
Speaker 1: grew up in a in a middle class household, and
Speaker 1: all my needs were met. I had parents that loved
Speaker 1: me and took care of me and looked after me,
Speaker 1: and sent me to good schools. And you know, I
Speaker 1: was a good boy as a youngster. And but I
Speaker 1: was one of those kids who always kind of felt
Speaker 1: different than everyone else, like everyone else had the rule
Speaker 1: book to life that that I lacked. I was very awkward.
Speaker 1: I was very insecure and self conscious, and it probably
Speaker 1: wasn't helped by kind of wearing a head gear, you know,
Speaker 1: or the doncha and a patch over my eye because
Speaker 1: I'm congenerous. I was born cross side and uh, and
Speaker 1: so I was always sort of a loner. Um. And
Speaker 1: and that changed when I around the age of ten
Speaker 1: or twelve, when I discovered the sport of swimming, which
Speaker 1: was like the first thing that I was ever good
Speaker 1: at in my life, over to that sport throughout high school.
Speaker 1: And as a result of that, UM that gave structure
Speaker 1: and purpose to my life and and allowed me to
Speaker 1: kind of learn about goals and achievement and the importance
Speaker 1: of hard work. And so by the time I was
Speaker 1: a senior in high school, I was I was a
Speaker 1: pretty successful swimmer. I was one of the fastest high
Speaker 1: school swimmers in the country, and I got recruited at
Speaker 1: colleges all over the place, and that introduced me to, uh,
Speaker 1: the miracle wonders of alcohol. And uh, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: one of those guys who was an alcoholic from the
Speaker 1: very first drink. You know, I remember exactly the first
Speaker 1: time I got drunk, and and you know how it
Speaker 1: made me feel. And for many years, it was the
Speaker 1: sort of solution to every problem I didn't know that
Speaker 1: I had in my life. You know, it made me
Speaker 1: comfortable in my own skin. It allowed me to go
Speaker 1: to a party and talk to girls. Um. You know.
Speaker 1: But like every alcoholic will tell you, uh, it it
Speaker 1: works until it doesn't work. And it wasn't long before
Speaker 1: it stopped working for me, and it started to erode
Speaker 1: my life. And it started with killing my swimming career. Um.
Speaker 1: And then I didn't really care about what I was
Speaker 1: doing with my life. You know, everything aspirational in my
Speaker 1: life kind of became eroded and replaced by this idea
Speaker 1: of just trying to find a way to numb out
Speaker 1: from the world. And it got darker and darker. And
Speaker 1: for a while I was a very functional alcoholic, but
Speaker 1: I was living a secret, you know, double life, I suppose,
Speaker 1: And and you know, as the disease progressed that that
Speaker 1: secret life was no longer so secret, and I got
Speaker 1: in all kinds of trouble and and you know, jails
Speaker 1: and institutions, and at the end about sixteen over sixteen
Speaker 1: years ago, I was sleeping on a bare mattress on
Speaker 1: the floor and otherwise unfurnished apartment. I was unemployable, I
Speaker 1: was untrustworthy. I had alienated all my friends. My family
Speaker 1: didn't want anything to do with me. And that was
Speaker 1: really kind of my first, uh moment of truly wrestling
Speaker 1: with the with the bad world. I suppose. I ended
Speaker 1: up going to rehab, and I stayed in rehab for
Speaker 1: a hundred days, like I literally was in a mental
Speaker 1: institution for a hundred days to kind of sort myself out.
Speaker 1: And as a result of really devoting myself to the
Speaker 1: process of getting sober and creating a foundation of sobriety,
Speaker 1: when I re entered the world, you know, I really, uh,
Speaker 1: I really had a new perspective on life and what
Speaker 1: was important and what wasn't. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I was intent upon getting back all those things that
Speaker 1: I had lost, you know, preparing all the wreckage of
Speaker 1: my past, and I sort of doubled down professionally to
Speaker 1: try to get back where I was, you know, I was.
Speaker 1: I was on the partnership track at a very prestigious
Speaker 1: law firm. I had met my wife. We were building
Speaker 1: the house of our dreams in Malibu Canyon. I had
Speaker 1: a portion the driveway, and everything looked pretty darn good
Speaker 1: from the outside, like it really looked like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd finally made it. I'd overcome this this disease, and
Speaker 1: and life was grand. But on the inside, I have
Speaker 1: to say that I was dying. You know. I was depressed.
Speaker 1: I was uninterested in my life and really just didn't
Speaker 1: have any motivation for anything. I was burned out at work.
Speaker 1: I didn't aspire to be any of the people that that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, that were the higher ups, the partners in
Speaker 1: the law firm. I didn't want their lives and I
Speaker 1: felt trapped in this life that I wasn't sure that
Speaker 1: I ever chose because I had never once asked myself,
Speaker 1: what what is it that you want out of life?
Speaker 1: Like what is it that brings you joy? Or what
Speaker 1: do you have to offer? You know, those questions were
Speaker 1: really never part of my life equation, and so I
Speaker 1: guess you could say on some level, I was kind
Speaker 1: of having this this midlife existential crisis. And at the
Speaker 1: same time, I was medicating all of these confusing emotions
Speaker 1: with terrible foods. You know, I had sort of transferred
Speaker 1: all of these addictive tendencies onto what a front calls
Speaker 1: the window diet. You know, if you can roll down
Speaker 1: your window and they hand you food through the window,
Speaker 1: you eat it, you know, And that's that's how I
Speaker 1: was living, you know, Burger King, McDonald's, Jack in the Box,
Speaker 1: Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, nachos, cheeseburgers, um. And when you're young,
Speaker 1: you can get away with that, but you know, it
Speaker 1: was it was catching out to me. So so nine
Speaker 1: years old, I'm really confused about my life and and
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm fat, you know, I'm fifty pounds overweight
Speaker 1: and have no energy or enthusiasm about what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: and it all kind of came into a crystal focus
Speaker 1: one evening shortly before I turned forty, when I was
Speaker 1: up late, having worked late that night, and as I
Speaker 1: made my way up the staircase to go to bed,
Speaker 1: my family was asleep. I had to pause halfway up
Speaker 1: a staircase like I was winded, you know, out of breath,
Speaker 1: buckled over, sweat on my brow, tightness in my chest,
Speaker 1: and you know, it was sort of like this feeling
Speaker 1: like I was. If I wasn't having a heart attack,
Speaker 1: I was headed for one soon. And I knew that
Speaker 1: I needed to make a change and how I was
Speaker 1: living on every level from diet and exercise to career
Speaker 1: and everything, because what I was doing, which I thought
Speaker 1: was what I was supposed to be doing, was simply
Speaker 1: not working for me. And my body was rebelling against it,
Speaker 1: and and it was powerful. Um, it was a powerful moment.
Speaker 1: And the reason I bring up kind of that that
Speaker 1: morning that I woke up and decided to get sober
Speaker 1: is because this, this this moment of being on the
Speaker 1: staircase was a similar moment, and I realized how powerful
Speaker 1: these little events can be. That that when these things occur,
Speaker 1: and I think we all experience them, in our lives
Speaker 1: that we have, we have that moment where we can
Speaker 1: where we're this sort of door opens right for a
Speaker 1: temporary period of time, and you can either act swiftly
Speaker 1: and decisively and that will change the trajectory of your
Speaker 1: life forever, or you can kind of not give it
Speaker 1: the respect that it deserves in and the moment will
Speaker 1: pass and you'll be back to doing whatever you were doing.
Speaker 1: And I knew that, you know, making that decision that
Speaker 1: morning when when I realized I needed to go to
Speaker 1: rehab change my life forever. And this seemed to be
Speaker 1: very It felt very similar, like I knew that I
Speaker 1: needed to do something pretty drastic. And so the idea
Speaker 1: of just you know, I could have woken up and said,
Speaker 1: you know what, I really need to eat better, I
Speaker 1: need to go to the gym or often, but you know,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of an extreme guy, and I knew that
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna work for me because it's vague and it's unspecific,
Speaker 1: and it didn't hold me accountable to anything. So, uh, Instead,
Speaker 1: you know, I set about changing my diet almost overnight,
Speaker 1: you know, wholesale, starting out with a seven day fruit
Speaker 1: and vegetable juice cleans and playing around with a vegetarian
Speaker 1: diet and ultimately um after about six months of experimentation,
Speaker 1: falling into a plant based diet and and that discovery,
Speaker 1: that single discovery really changed everything for me. I lost
Speaker 1: the weight, but more importantly, my energy levels went through
Speaker 1: the roof. They were so it was so uh, it
Speaker 1: was so extraordinary and so dramatic, um that it really
Speaker 1: led me to this question of of how resilient the
Speaker 1: human body is, because you know, I abused myself horribly
Speaker 1: for many, many years with poor lifestyle and diet um
Speaker 1: and lack of exercise and drugs and alcohol, and that
Speaker 1: in such a short period of time it could rebound
Speaker 1: and I could feel so good despite the fact that
Speaker 1: I was forty years old. Really kind of is the
Speaker 1: driver that led me on this path um towards some
Speaker 1: of these athletic feats and goals that that experienced over
Speaker 1: the last couple of years. But when it first started out,
Speaker 1: I started exercising again simply because I had so much energy.
Speaker 1: I couldn't sit still and I just needed to move
Speaker 1: my body. Uh. And my goals were really simple. They
Speaker 1: were just, you know, lose a little bit of weight
Speaker 1: and uh, feel good and be able to enjoy my
Speaker 1: children at their energy level. So let me ask you
Speaker 1: a question about about that that period where you had
Speaker 1: the sort of the second awakening and you realized, you know,
Speaker 1: you weren't really happy in your life and you weren't
Speaker 1: eating well. How act of had you remained in your
Speaker 1: recovery from alcoholism at that point? Very active? And I
Speaker 1: remain active, and you know, I've always gone to meetings
Speaker 1: and you know, work with newcomers and do all the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that you're supposed to do, so, you know,
Speaker 1: and that goes in waves. Sometimes I'm more active than others,
Speaker 1: but I'm always very you know, cognizant that that I
Speaker 1: need to stay on top of my recovery and that
Speaker 1: has to be my first priority. Um. But I think
Speaker 1: I was unaware, uh you know, I was sort of
Speaker 1: unaware of the extent to which these kind of addictive
Speaker 1: tendencies can spill over and other behavior patterns or or
Speaker 1: at least I wasn't really willing to kind of deal
Speaker 1: with those, you know, and and in my case, it
Speaker 1: was food, right. And I'm always I always think I'm
Speaker 1: I'm a recovering, uh recovering alcoholic and addict myself. And
Speaker 1: I'm always always curious about because there seems to be
Speaker 1: two sort of perspectives in recovery. One is like, everything
Speaker 1: you need is found right here in these rooms, and
Speaker 1: if you just do this, and you know, do it
Speaker 1: by the do it by the book, you'll have everything
Speaker 1: you need. And then there's another school that sort of says, yes,
Speaker 1: all that stuff is important, but there's a lot of
Speaker 1: growth that happens outside of there, which is kind of
Speaker 1: what led me to that question, because it seems for
Speaker 1: you there was a whole another area of life that
Speaker 1: still needed explored. Well, sure, I mean certainly. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I think being in recovery was my first experience with
Speaker 1: the notion of premising your life on spiritual principles, because
Speaker 1: before that that was just an athema to me. And
Speaker 1: I remember being a rehab and being asked the question,
Speaker 1: are you a spiritual being having a human experience or
Speaker 1: are you a human being having a spirit having a
Speaker 1: spiritual experience? And I didn't even know what that question
Speaker 1: meant when I learned how to answer it, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was so new to me, But recovery has introduced
Speaker 1: me to spiritual principles that have been UM in turn
Speaker 1: led me to explore all kinds of different kinds of ideas.
Speaker 1: And I think for me UM in terms of staying sober,
Speaker 1: like I'm you know, I'm a believer that that that
Speaker 1: Alcoholics anonymous and the program of recovery works. It works
Speaker 1: for me UM. And the minute I start to try
Speaker 1: to replace that with other things, whether you know, for me,
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, well, you know, you just
Speaker 1: ultra running is just another addiction. And that's a whole
Speaker 1: other conversation I can have. But you know I have to.
Speaker 1: I have to you know, going out and exercising and
Speaker 1: doing the training and all of that is certainly an
Speaker 1: active meditation, and that's an aspect of recovery, but it
Speaker 1: is not the cure to my disease. And and and
Speaker 1: my mind wants to tell me that if I just
Speaker 1: do that, that I'll be fine. In the minute I
Speaker 1: start thinking that, I get into trouble. So recovery. You know,
Speaker 1: I'd like to tell you that I always put it first. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't. But when I don't, that's when I start
Speaker 1: to you know, regress emotionally, mentally and spiritually. Right and
Speaker 1: you you put it first enough so that you remain sober,
Speaker 1: which is a balancing act for for a lot of us,
Speaker 1: I think as we integrate a lot more things into
Speaker 1: our life. Yeah, and there's good days and bad days.
Speaker 1: As you know, sometimes you're the teacher and sometimes you're
Speaker 1: the student. More often than not, I'm the student. So
Speaker 1: another question. I heard you on the James Altered to
Speaker 1: Show recently and you were you were talking about you
Speaker 1: were writing your first book or your only book right now,
Speaker 1: finding Ultra and you heard then that one of the
Speaker 1: most famous ultraman out there was writing his memoirs, and
Speaker 1: that really sort of made you nervous. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: if you could tell us a little little bit about
Speaker 1: how you felt, and then more importantly, kind of what
Speaker 1: got you through that to go on and continue to
Speaker 1: do your own thing, because I think that comparison can
Speaker 1: be a real problem for a lot of people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sure of course. Um yeah, I mean to kind of
Speaker 1: set the stage for your listeners. And we only got
Speaker 1: into the first part of the story, so that so
Speaker 1: ultimately I ended up in going off and racing in
Speaker 1: these crazy ultra endurance races and doing really well, and
Speaker 1: that ultimately got me a bunch of media attention, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And that led to a book deal. So, um, I
Speaker 1: had a great opportunity to uh write a book for Crown,
Speaker 1: which is like a top notch publisher, which was this
Speaker 1: amazing dream come true for me. Um. And very early on,
Speaker 1: shortly after I kind of inked this book deal, I
Speaker 1: found out that Scott Jurich, who's one of the most
Speaker 1: accomplished ultra runners on the planet, the guy's won you know,
Speaker 1: every imaginable prestigious ultra race out there, had also just
Speaker 1: signed a book deal. And not only was he a
Speaker 1: much better culture endurance athlete than I am, because quite honestly,
Speaker 1: I've never even one in multure endurance race, which confused
Speaker 1: me about how I even got a book deal to
Speaker 1: begin with, because I'm it's not the story of some
Speaker 1: kind of world champion, um. But but also he's a vegan, right,
Speaker 1: So here you have these two things that I'm going
Speaker 1: to be writing about that are going to be written
Speaker 1: about it, that are also going to be being written
Speaker 1: about by a guy who is better suited to do
Speaker 1: so than I am. It's sort of out in Hollywood
Speaker 1: when you you know, two volcano movies come out at
Speaker 1: the same time. It just seems like that's the way
Speaker 1: the universe works, right, something in the air or whatever.
Speaker 1: And and uh it was interesting. I mean, I know Scott,
Speaker 1: I don't hold anything against him at all. I was like,
Speaker 1: I can you, I can't believe it. Really, He's going
Speaker 1: to write a book at the same time. So it
Speaker 1: forced me to to really think about why I was
Speaker 1: writing this book. You know, was I doing it just
Speaker 1: to pad my ego? Um? You know, what is the
Speaker 1: purpose of all of this? But I knew that in
Speaker 1: order from my book to work, because here I am,
Speaker 1: you know, for the most part, just kind of an
Speaker 1: average guy who went out and tackled some adventures and
Speaker 1: did really well, but certainly can't be considered a world champion. Um.
Speaker 1: The only way that my book would work or make
Speaker 1: sense or be helpful or interesting to anybody was going
Speaker 1: to be the extent to which I was willing to
Speaker 1: be vulnerable enough to really talk about my struggles and
Speaker 1: my failures in an honest and authentic way. And that's
Speaker 1: to say that, um that, you know, I needed to
Speaker 1: be able to tap into an emotional through line that
Speaker 1: people could connect with right and identify with and maybe
Speaker 1: see some of that in their own lives. And and
Speaker 1: that was really the goal from the beginning of the
Speaker 1: book anyway, but it just made it um made it
Speaker 1: a lot more challenging personally because I really had to
Speaker 1: dig deep and and you know, probe my emotions and
Speaker 1: try to understand what led me to some of the
Speaker 1: decisions that I've made in my life that have led
Speaker 1: me astray and uh and be able to paint that
Speaker 1: picture in total transparency, which is frightening. You know. Essentially,
Speaker 1: I had to write the book like I was writing
Speaker 1: a private in a private journal that nobody was ever
Speaker 1: going to see. And there would be moments when I
Speaker 1: when I was writing it where I would just think
Speaker 1: this is insane, like I can't first of all, who cares?
Speaker 1: And second of all, the moment I started to think
Speaker 1: about the book being on a shelf and a store,
Speaker 1: I would absolutely panic. And you know that anybody else
Speaker 1: would would would you know, have the opportunity to read
Speaker 1: about my interior life in in such details. So it
Speaker 1: made but but ultimately I think that's why my book works,
Speaker 1: and I think that's why my book continues to you know,
Speaker 1: strike a chord and sell and it's because people read
Speaker 1: it and they know that I'm not trying to b
Speaker 1: s them, that I'm just telling a human story and
Speaker 1: and this sort of you know, overall humanity of it
Speaker 1: is the thing that is something that we can all
Speaker 1: connect with. I really like that that story because it
Speaker 1: does show that it's easy for us to compare ourselves
Speaker 1: to what somebody else is doing, but that the path
Speaker 1: forward is almost always just to be truly ourselves. That's
Speaker 1: the that's where the that's where something special happens. And
Speaker 1: and in your case, it certainly did. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think that that, you know, on the surface level, you
Speaker 1: look at my book and it's like, oh, here's the
Speaker 1: story of a guy who was kind of overweight, realized
Speaker 1: he needed to change his life, adopted a vegan diet,
Speaker 1: and went off and ran you know, these crazy races.
Speaker 1: But but really kind of without hammering people over the
Speaker 1: head with it, between the lines and what I was
Speaker 1: trying to express was really much more of a spiritual
Speaker 1: journey towards authenticity, you know, a process of trying to
Speaker 1: understand what it was that I wanted to do with
Speaker 1: my life and how I could express that and that
Speaker 1: and that journey really being one based on based on
Speaker 1: faith and and not knowing where this adventure would lead me,
Speaker 1: but embracing what my heart was telling me to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting part of the story.
Speaker 1: And you wrote something online recently about it too. And
Speaker 1: the lines that strike me are you talking about your
Speaker 1: your out on a bicycle for hours and hours and
Speaker 1: you can't come up with a rational reason why you
Speaker 1: should be doing that versus spending more time at work
Speaker 1: or doing these other things, except that that's what your
Speaker 1: heart told you you should do, and ultimately it really
Speaker 1: led to a new life for you. Yeah. Absolutely, I
Speaker 1: mean I couldn't have predicted at the time that it would.
Speaker 1: And you know, I had many moments of of great
Speaker 1: weakness and tremendous fear and and wondering whether you know,
Speaker 1: my instincts or my heart were leading me astray as
Speaker 1: opposed to, you know, towards a healthier kind of um
Speaker 1: trajectory for myself. So there was a lot of doubt
Speaker 1: that went into that um and uh and yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean to be sitting here talking to you, you know,
Speaker 1: on the other side of that is amazing to me.
Speaker 1: You know, the the idea that that that simply by
Speaker 1: kind of doing the interior work such that I could
Speaker 1: get to a place where I felt like I could
Speaker 1: trust my instincts, even if they were sending me these
Speaker 1: sort of crazy irrational signals about how I should be
Speaker 1: spending my time, and then to follow that thread, no
Speaker 1: matter what the relationship to rationality was, and come out
Speaker 1: the other side. I feel very I mean vindicate, it's
Speaker 1: not the right word, but I feel very I feel
Speaker 1: very satisfied that I that I chose the right path,
Speaker 1: that I had the courage to, you know, take the
Speaker 1: risks that I took, because I took a lot. You know,
Speaker 1: I have four kids. I've got to have to be
Speaker 1: responsible to them, and you know, have big life with
Speaker 1: lots of other people involved that that are relying on me.
Speaker 1: So it's you know, it'd be different if I was
Speaker 1: living in a cabin in the woods by myself, but
Speaker 1: that's not the reality of my life. So so it
Speaker 1: was scary time for sure. What I like about it, also, though,
Speaker 1: is that that you didn't up and just say well,
Speaker 1: I've decided I'm going to go do this thing and
Speaker 1: walk off and and leave everybody behind. You found a
Speaker 1: way to start where you were you you did have
Speaker 1: a law career, and you found a way to make
Speaker 1: those things coexist. And the balance is always hard to strike.
Speaker 1: But you didn't let those things be excuses, and yet
Speaker 1: you didn't abdicate responsibility on the other hand, And that's
Speaker 1: always such a tricky balance. People tend to think they
Speaker 1: either need to just throw off their old life and
Speaker 1: start a brand new one completely or they don't do anything.
Speaker 1: And what I like about your story is you sort
Speaker 1: of started where you were and made your way through it,
Speaker 1: and then on the other side life looked very very different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. You know, I'm in together this this sort
Speaker 1: of online course right now on on how to set
Speaker 1: and achieve a goal and and so I've been doing
Speaker 1: a lot of thinking about goal setting and life transformation
Speaker 1: and you know, not just sort of tools for how
Speaker 1: you can do that or do that better, but also
Speaker 1: what holds people back. And it's it's an interesting thing,
Speaker 1: and it's it's kind of some contradictory, but because on
Speaker 1: the one hand, I think it's really important to have
Speaker 1: a big goal, like, for example, I set the goal
Speaker 1: I set a goal for myself of racing Ultraman, which
Speaker 1: was this huge athletic goal, right, and I had to
Speaker 1: create a lot of structure around that goal and how
Speaker 1: to work towards it in a responsible way where each
Speaker 1: day I had certain things that I had to do
Speaker 1: that we're going to move me forward. And as long
Speaker 1: as I stuck to that program, I knew that come
Speaker 1: race day, I would be as ready as I could.
Speaker 1: Given me a lot of time, right. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I think a lot of people sit around
Speaker 1: and they wait, they wait, They want to wait until
Speaker 1: they have it all figured out before they even start,
Speaker 1: you know. And although I set this goal of training
Speaker 1: for ultraman uh, you know, I didn't wait until I
Speaker 1: had that goal before I ever started running. I started
Speaker 1: running because I found joy in that, Like, because I
Speaker 1: just wanted to be outside. I wanted to feel connected
Speaker 1: to my body the way that I did when I
Speaker 1: was a kid and I was swimming. It wasn't because
Speaker 1: I had an objective other than to um kind of
Speaker 1: tap into a more childlike experience that I had cast
Speaker 1: aside as an adult um. And so I think in
Speaker 1: terms of you know, kind of um motivating people or
Speaker 1: or catalyzing change. Sometimes you just have to start, you
Speaker 1: don't You don't need to know where it's leading you.
Speaker 1: When I first started riding my biking, I didn't know
Speaker 1: where this was leading me. I was just doing it,
Speaker 1: you know, and and you and and it's getting comfortable
Speaker 1: in not knowing and getting comfortable with just being present
Speaker 1: in what you're doing for the sole purpose of doing
Speaker 1: it and not for any other kind of objective outside
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, and that leads really well into the
Speaker 1: next next piece I wanted to talk about, which was
Speaker 1: an article you recently wrote called why you should stop
Speaker 1: life hacking and invest the journey. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about Uh? I love that article and
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of good stuff and it.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what you
Speaker 1: were getting at there? You know, right now, because of
Speaker 1: the Internet and Twitter and all these sorts of things,
Speaker 1: it's very easy for these you know, quote unquote beams
Speaker 1: to generate a lot of momentum, and those memes create trends.
Speaker 1: And right now, one of the most popular trends, particularly
Speaker 1: in sort of health and in business, is the idea
Speaker 1: of the life hack or the bio hack. And essentially
Speaker 1: what those are our tips and tools and shortcuts to
Speaker 1: create efficiencies in your life. Um, you know, bio hack
Speaker 1: your body by taking this one supplement to improve you know,
Speaker 1: brain function, or or or kind of ways to create
Speaker 1: additional you know, cut things out of your professional life
Speaker 1: that aren't serving you. And I think all of those
Speaker 1: things are great. You know, any any kind of tip
Speaker 1: or trick or tool that you can use that's going
Speaker 1: to streamline your life is something worthy of you know,
Speaker 1: looking into, of course, But that article really is about
Speaker 1: how there's a whole culture now that has grown out
Speaker 1: of and around this idea of life hacking, and and
Speaker 1: my objection to it really is that it seemed to
Speaker 1: it seems to have become the destination rather than the device.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, I think it was popularized by Tim
Speaker 1: Ferris and all his amazing bestselling books For Our Work Week,
Speaker 1: for Our Body. He really kind of put it into
Speaker 1: mainstream consciousness. And and now there's this obsession with life
Speaker 1: hacks where it's all about the hack rather than why
Speaker 1: you're implementing the hack, or more importantly, what you're gonna
Speaker 1: do with the time that gets freed up as a
Speaker 1: result of using the hack. And I think in the
Speaker 1: article I use an example like I use an analogy.
Speaker 1: I think it was something like, it's like being obsessed
Speaker 1: with a table saw rather than the process of building
Speaker 1: a beautiful piece of furniture. And and it was really
Speaker 1: a call call to action to UM embrace the journey
Speaker 1: of life, which is kind of what we're talking about
Speaker 1: here today, and to understand that anything really valuable in
Speaker 1: your life or worthy of your time and energy UM
Speaker 1: is hard, and it's going to be a long road,
Speaker 1: and and that maybe we should reframe this whole inquiry
Speaker 1: and start to think of start to embrace the idea
Speaker 1: that that you know, we should invest all of who
Speaker 1: we are and something that we're passionate about, and we
Speaker 1: should invest less time in how we can shortcut that
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, and in my experience,
Speaker 1: everything uh in my life that has value that I've
Speaker 1: been successful at has been extremely difficult UM. And I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to
Speaker 1: have earned it more cheaply than I did, you know.
Speaker 1: And when I look back over those experiencess, the memories
Speaker 1: that come up have nothing to do with the finish
Speaker 1: lines or or that you know, how I felt when
Speaker 1: I finally succeeded, and they have everything to do with
Speaker 1: how I felt during the toil and during hard times
Speaker 1: and what I learned about myself when I had to
Speaker 1: overcome a challenge. So it's it's us about like you know,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not about being a hater of the
Speaker 1: life act as much as it is being a lover
Speaker 1: of the journey and and what I was trying to do.
Speaker 1: And that pieces really encourage people to um to not
Speaker 1: try to shy away from that. You know, we're hardwired
Speaker 1: to kind of uh, you know, avoid hard things to
Speaker 1: be comfortable. And you know, in my life, the only
Speaker 1: time the times that I feel most alive are when
Speaker 1: I'm most uncomfortable or when I'm really putting myself out
Speaker 1: there in a frightening way. Yeah, I really liked the article.
Speaker 1: I we say on this show sometimes there's there's no
Speaker 1: shortcuts to a to a life worth living. And what
Speaker 1: I liked about the article is you gave a little
Speaker 1: example of like, Okay, you implement this little hack and
Speaker 1: you get this little thing done, and then ask yourself,
Speaker 1: how do you feel? And that really that really hit
Speaker 1: home for me because it's so easy to make these
Speaker 1: goals and find a way to get to them, but
Speaker 1: a lot of times it feels empty on the other side.
Speaker 1: And what you're what you're talking about is really embracing
Speaker 1: the process and being all in, and that has a
Speaker 1: really different feeling to it. We referenced a little bit
Speaker 1: they're talking about about being uncomfortable and pushing through discomfort.
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could share with us a
Speaker 1: little bit, because you've clearly got a ton of experience
Speaker 1: in pushing through discomfort, uh, in your endurance training. Kind
Speaker 1: of what what has happen opening in your mind? What
Speaker 1: are the things that you're telling yourself that allow you
Speaker 1: to push through that, because I think it doesn't need
Speaker 1: to be on nearly that grand scale. It can be
Speaker 1: on getting up and and doing the thing I need
Speaker 1: to do today, whatever small thing that is. People get
Speaker 1: stuck all along the line, and so I'm curious how
Speaker 1: you talk yourself through it. Um. Yeah, there's a couple
Speaker 1: of things. I mean. And the first thing I would
Speaker 1: say is that feelings are just feelings, man, you know
Speaker 1: they're there. And we talked about this in recovery on
Speaker 1: all the time, right, you know, we were always trying
Speaker 1: to avoid uncomfortable feelings um and and that doesn't really work.
Speaker 1: You know. The only way to kind of navigate a
Speaker 1: challenging emotional situation that you're in is to allow yourself
Speaker 1: to feel those feelings and understand that they will pass.
Speaker 1: But you have to kind of accept them um and
Speaker 1: understand that they're not going to kill you. So temporary discomfort,
Speaker 1: whether it's emotionally or whether it's physically when I'm out training,
Speaker 1: I know that it's I know that it's temporary, and
Speaker 1: I know that uh, and I know that it will pass,
Speaker 1: and I know that it's not going to kill me,
Speaker 1: so that that's helpful to me. And the second thing
Speaker 1: that's maybe the bigger issue is is understanding the distinction
Speaker 1: between the thinking mind and and kind of your higher
Speaker 1: consciousness in the sense that you're thinking mind, is that
Speaker 1: is the idle chatter in your head that's always trying
Speaker 1: to talk you out of stuff that's always negative, you know,
Speaker 1: impulsing you with these negative thought patterns. Oh, you should stop,
Speaker 1: Oh you're not you know, you shouldn't be doing this,
Speaker 1: this is not good for you. Or you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's okay to go to Burger King and all these
Speaker 1: kinds of things that is not your higher self, that
Speaker 1: is not the good wolf talking to you. That's the
Speaker 1: bad world for that's the that's the thinking mind. And
Speaker 1: to be able to draw that distinction between consciousness and
Speaker 1: thinking and to become an observer of your thoughts and
Speaker 1: to develop control over the thinking mind, to be able
Speaker 1: to observe those thoughts and go, well, that's interesting that
Speaker 1: you're telling me that I should stop running right now
Speaker 1: because I'm uncomfortable. But I don't have to listen to
Speaker 1: that message. You know, it doesn't have to control me.
Speaker 1: I can control it. And that's hard work to develop
Speaker 1: mastery over that, certainly something I'm not, you know, the
Speaker 1: ultimate master. It's a process that that I think the
Speaker 1: more you can focus on and develop tools around, the
Speaker 1: better off you're going to be. Uh. You know, sometimes
Speaker 1: getting through difficult, you know, painful situations and training, it's
Speaker 1: about breaking it down into smaller chunks too. If I'm
Speaker 1: running and i'm I try not to think about the
Speaker 1: finish line or how much longer I have to go.
Speaker 1: I just focus on what I'm doing in the moment.
Speaker 1: I bring my consciousness or my awareness back to the breath,
Speaker 1: or I just look at the lamppost ahead and say
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get to there. I'm not gonna worry
Speaker 1: about anything else other than getting to there, and then
Speaker 1: I'll think about, you know, the next lamp post. And
Speaker 1: the more I can kind of consistently take myself out
Speaker 1: of the future in the path riot myself in the present,
Speaker 1: that's really helpful to me in in kind of acclimating
Speaker 1: to the temporary pain and getting through those situations. Excellent.
Speaker 1: That was I like that breaking it down into into
Speaker 1: small time saving. It's sort of one day at a time,
Speaker 1: divided by as many divisions as you need to get
Speaker 1: it to a manageable, manageable size. So um, I think
Speaker 1: we are at the end of the questions I had.
Speaker 1: I did you and I talked briefly before this, and
Speaker 1: one of the things that I'm gonna do is, uh,
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to embark on I'm gonna take
Speaker 1: you up on the offer in your book of try
Speaker 1: the entirely plant based diet for thirty days. So similar
Speaker 1: to you, I don't do very good with vague plans
Speaker 1: like I'm going to try and eat better. I need
Speaker 1: a very clear goal and objective. So that's what I'm
Speaker 1: setting for myself. So I'm any any tips to get
Speaker 1: out of the gate for me? Yeah? Absolutely. I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, I'm thrilled that you're gonna try. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited for you, and uh, I can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear how it goes, and hopefully we will We'll have
Speaker 1: some chatting back and forth because I want to help you. Uh,
Speaker 1: I want to help you through it. So I'm pretty
Speaker 1: excited about it. And I think one of the things
Speaker 1: that that helps me, I mean I think that I
Speaker 1: think it actually is going to be helpful, uh to
Speaker 1: you to rely on some of some of the principles
Speaker 1: of recovery with respect to your diet um and I
Speaker 1: use them quite a bit with respective food and and
Speaker 1: plant based eating. You can kind of think of it, um. Well,
Speaker 1: the first thing I would say is focus on focus
Speaker 1: on it being a fun adventure and not some kind
Speaker 1: of deprivation. You know, focus on all the fun, new,
Speaker 1: exciting kind of things you're going to do with food
Speaker 1: and these new foods you're gonna explore and bring into
Speaker 1: your life, rather than what you're not eating. Oh, I
Speaker 1: can't eat this, I can't eat that. You know, what
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? Without cheese and just pace your
Speaker 1: mind ahead of yourself and think about all these cool
Speaker 1: new things you're gonna do. Um. That's the first thing.
Speaker 1: The second thing is is, uh, you know, being being
Speaker 1: in recovery, you know how to set rules around habits, right,
Speaker 1: so you're either using or you're sober. There's no gray area, right.
Speaker 1: You can't like use once in a while and say
Speaker 1: that you're a sober person. It doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1: And with eating a plant based diet, you can just say,
Speaker 1: all right, well, you know meat and dairy and you
Speaker 1: know processed foods, most processable, so those are like that
Speaker 1: that that's my drug of choice and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to do that. You know, I'm gonna eat all these
Speaker 1: other foods. I'm not going to starve. I'm actually gonna
Speaker 1: feel better. But those are just for boating, like those
Speaker 1: are just they're they're they're not even negotiable in the
Speaker 1: same way that alcohol is not is not negotiable. And
Speaker 1: I think if you kind of rely on the tools
Speaker 1: that you've developed personally for yourself around drugs and alcohol
Speaker 1: and kind of apply them to those particular food groups
Speaker 1: that are not serving you, um, I think that's a
Speaker 1: great kind of way to look at it. All right, well, um,
Speaker 1: thanks so much rich for for joining. It's been a
Speaker 1: great talk um, and I look forward to keeping in
Speaker 1: touch with you as I go through this next thirty days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely so keep me posted man, and I'm here for you,
Speaker 1: alank for having me on ye take care alright, bye
Speaker 1: bye bye. You can learn more about Rich Role and
Speaker 1: this podcast in our show notes at one you feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash rich Role. Oh and by the way,
Speaker 1: we've been getting a lot of great letters and comments
Speaker 1: and reviews and we'd love you to keep that up
Speaker 1: if you could. If you haven't reviewed us on iTunes,
Speaker 1: please get out there and do that. And uh definitely
Speaker 1: email Eric RAI do you have anything to say? And thanks,
Speaker 1: see you next time.