1 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Roundup. 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: I'm Cheryl McCollum and as always, we have Miss Nancy Grace. 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Morning, honey, that wasn't. 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 3: Your usual grand entrance. What's up with you? 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: You want me to redo it? Because I can. Y'all, 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Roundup. 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: I'm Cheryl McCollum and we are joined by the incredible, 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: fantastic and beautiful Nancy Grace. 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm so fake now, I'm never going to believe 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 3: in another word you say it's not fake. I've got 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 3: so much to tell you. Okay. First of all, the 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 3: book is out this week about Ellen Greenberg. All proceeds 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 3: going to National Center Missing Exploited Children. And here's my 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: big question. She was planning the wedding. How did that 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 3: wedding turn into a funeral? I just but before that, 16 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 3: can I tell you about Brian Coburger, the band of 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 3: my existence? Okay? So the judge, this judge Hippler is 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 3: so great. He's just so down to earth. He's like, Okay, 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 3: you know what, I've been watching him for about a 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 3: year now and I don't see any oddities or quirks 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: in his behavior. So if you want to claim autism, 22 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 3: feel free with him on the stand and up until then, no, 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 3: I thought about that for a long time. And this 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: is why it's the defense has got an unusual argument, 25 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: and let me just say, a unique and creative argument, 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: a niche argument that I never heard before. She the defense, 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: Anne Taylor, is claiming a because of his alleged autism. 28 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: No one has actually come out and given the diagnosis yet, 29 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 3: but she has diagnosed him, okay, and apparently they've got 30 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: doctors lined up that would do that. That because of 31 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 3: his autism, he looks quirky, and he stares blank stares, 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 3: and he can look quote creepy end quote. The judges, no, 33 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: I haven't noticed any of that. So what she's saying is, 34 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: here's the next tier of that. The next level, she's 35 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 3: saying that he has OCD and autism to the point 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: that he could not have pulled off precision timing necessary 37 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: to perform the four murders. He does not have the manual, 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: dexterity or the wherewithal to do that. That's why she's 39 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 3: trying to get autism in in the case in chief, 40 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: the judge is saying, no, unless he takes a stand. Now, 41 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: the next layer is if there is a guilty conviction, 42 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 3: then she will bring it in to mediate or a 43 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: lesson mitigate sentencing to try to get him off the 44 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: death penalty. Right now, under the US Supreme Court, autism 45 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 3: is not deemed a mental incapacity that relieves you from 46 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 3: the possibility of the death penalty. So she's got a 47 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 3: double argument, one in the gyilt innocence face and one 48 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: in the sentencing phase for autism. So we'll see where 49 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 3: that all ends. 50 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting to me because he can pull off 51 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: a PhD. He can pull off defending that PhD. Now 52 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: I never got a PhD, but I had to defend 53 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: my master's thesis. And I'm going to tell you, those 54 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: questions come flying at you. You've got to be quick 55 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: on your feet. There are deadlines. I mean, that's gonna 56 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: be a hard sale. That's going to be a hard 57 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: sale for me. 58 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: In fact, it may backfire if they try to bring 59 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: that in and then the state responds. See, they're trying 60 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: to keep out his PhD thesis papers where he did 61 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: all that research on the perfect crime and how not 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: to leave behind traces see, and so I don't think 63 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: they thought this part through yet. I would hate to 64 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 3: put it out there. But if they bring in the autism. 65 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 3: Right now, they have filed emotion to keep out all 66 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 3: of his dissertation and his studies. But once they bring 67 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 3: in autism, that will open the door under the law 68 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: for the state to bring in all of that that 69 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 3: the fence is trying to keep out. And more important, 70 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: they lose the ground on appeal because here's an easy way. 71 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 3: The state cannot bring in your bad character or your 72 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: prior convictions unless they're similar transactions. Let's just say you're 73 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: being tried for murdered. I can't bring in your armed 74 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 3: robbery or your vehgular homicide if it's not similar. That 75 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 3: doesn't prove anything. It brings in your character. But if 76 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: you get up on the stairs and say I've never 77 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: been convicted, well, then the steve opened the door. It's 78 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 3: like a vampire. You open the door, the steak and 79 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: then walk through the door and tear apart everything you 80 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: just put up is packed. So they put up autism, 81 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 3: that's opening the door for the state to bring even 82 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 3: more evidence in that he is perfectly coherent and in 83 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 3: fact really really smart. So that's a double edged sword 84 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: what they're doing. I don't think they've thought that through 85 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: all the way. 86 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: Yeah that's going to blow up, Yeah, no doubt. 87 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 3: And I'm just waiting. 88 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's gonna be a good day. 89 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: Good day. 90 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: Listen. 91 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: I want to get back to something you said about 92 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg, and you mentioned the planning of the wedding. 93 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 2: I know you and your sister when y'all were little 94 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: probably played, you know, throwing a wedding. 95 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: Now I know that never, never, I never even thought 96 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: about it, except that I never thought about it. I 97 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 3: never dreamed about it. I never dreamed about a wedding dress, 98 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 3: being a princess. I liked to go in the backyard. 99 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: Out there, my backyard just melted into a bunch of 100 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: woods and pine trees and bill Fords. I basically took 101 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: great joy in building the fort and hiding in the fort. 102 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 2: We know, with the five of us, I mean, obviously, 103 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 2: weddings were a big thing in our house, and my 104 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: sister's being so much older than me. I mean, they 105 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: got married when I was still fairly young. But I 106 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: can remember Sharon making all of us get up to 107 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: watch the royal wedding, like weddings were just like this 108 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 2: fun event. 109 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 3: Well, I agree with that. I grew up in a 110 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 3: lot of weddings because my mom was a church organist, 111 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 3: I might add for free. I don't know what these 112 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: people were thinking. They never one of them gave them 113 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: her a candle. I'll never forget that. Of course, she 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 3: was too sweet to ever say anything. But we went 115 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 3: to every wedding that was held in her church, and 116 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: it was always a big deal on my mom. We're 117 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: always throwing wedding showers. We're always having big parties at 118 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 3: the church in our house for wedding showers. I've made 119 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 3: too much punch with Let's see what do we put 120 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: in there? We would put of course, no, I'm going 121 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: to leave that till the very end. We would put 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: in grape jeese, white grape juice, and ginger all and 123 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: or sprite, but typically ginger grape juice. Mix it up 124 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: in ice, and then the qudi gras a big hook 125 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: the whole square of lime sherbet. And I thought that 126 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 3: was the best. Well, it is the best thing I've 127 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: ever tasted them. Yeah, yes, yes, we can throw a 128 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: part of a party with the punch and the cheese 129 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: jaws and the petaphores and the mixed nuts. Of course 130 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: you have to have those and we'd have a big 131 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: old time. The Clampus were really have fun. 132 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: Honey, I don't think you're legally married if there't a 133 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: cheese straw in there somewhere. 134 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 3: Oh, I'll never forget. I'll never forget the party that 135 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 3: you and your sisters and your family through for the twins. 136 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: When I's going to have a baby, the babies absolutely, 137 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: as we like to say, put on the dog. But yes, 138 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: Now back to Ellen Greenberg. I don't know how I got 139 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 3: into my own baby shower doing. 140 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: Well, because you're planning, and you're planning something that is 141 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: so happy and you know. To me, not only was 142 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: she planning a wedding, which just consumes something every day, right, 143 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: you're thinking about flowers and stamps and where you're going 144 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: to have it, well, she also loved her job and 145 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: loved her students. 146 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: She to me, was in that just most. 147 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: Perfect spot of your life where everything is coming together. 148 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: It's what you want, the way you've carved it out, 149 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: and everything is perfect. 150 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 3: I just think about that time and real life. Because 151 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: she was all of those friends rallying around her. She 152 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time working on these save the 153 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: dates that she sent out, you know, for the wedding. 154 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 3: Everything was going along perfectly for Ellen. She was the 155 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: only child, the apple of her parents' eyes. And this 156 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 3: is what went down. So she had been working on 157 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: the save of the dates, just sent out waste of them. 158 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 3: And there was a blizzard. She was the first grade 159 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 3: school teacher, and she and all the children went home early. 160 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: She stopped for gas, which you know what that means, 161 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 3: not planning suicide, and got home to the kind of 162 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: a luxe apartment she shared with her fiance. There were 163 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: all these calls on her phone and at first Ellie 164 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: was like, she's going crazy. She's calling all these people 165 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: with her you know, derangement. The family Pia called every 166 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 3: single number. They were the parents of every single student, 167 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: to make sure the student got home. And we followed 168 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 3: up and the families all said she was fine. She's 169 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 3: bubbling and happy, let me say it. So then she's 170 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: in the kitchen making an till I have frit salad. 171 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: The fiance comes home. I don't know that he needs 172 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 3: she was coming home earlier, not He leaves to go downstairs, 173 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 3: leaves her making a big fruit salad, goes downstairs to 174 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: work out. He works out forty five minutes. I've confirmed 175 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: that by watching the videotape. If I'm coming out, going 176 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: in and coming out and finds her stab he says, 177 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 3: he finds her stabbed twenty times. She is stabbed ten 178 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: times in the back, the back of the neck, the 179 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 3: back of the head, including one stab that slices her 180 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 3: spinal dera d u r a dera, the projective sheet 181 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 3: around her spine. And yet, according to them, after even 182 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 3: doing that ten stabs to the back, she continues to 183 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: stab herself until she's dead, including the knife ten inch 184 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 3: knife plunged into her chest at her heart. 185 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: It is such crap, And isn't there more than one 186 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: stab wound that could have would have been fatal? 187 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: Yes, and not only that there are two, but definitely 188 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 3: one stab wolves that occurred post mortem. They didn't bleed. 189 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: In other words, someone kept stabbing her after her heart 190 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: hit quit beating. 191 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you can't stab yourself fatally more than one time. 192 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: Well here's the other thing. Think about this A lot 193 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: of women, as I write in my book What Happened 194 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: to Ellen? Online now and Amazon, that is a big favor. 195 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 3: They reduced it twenty five percent in the you know 196 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: to boost the sales. Every penny going like it deal 197 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 3: with Dancing with the Stars to National Center for Missing 198 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 3: Exploited Children. I have no pecuniary or money enters in 199 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 3: the book. I did it because I have grown to 200 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 3: love her parents and I want to help this case 201 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: get reopened very quickly. One stab wound post mortem. Okay, 202 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: she was making the fruit salad, and I keep saying 203 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: that because number one doesn't make sense. You're right in 204 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 3: the middle of making lunch, you know, Oh, you know what? 205 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 3: Screw that, I'm gonna kill myself. But when she was found, 206 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 3: she was still holding in her left hand a pristine 207 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 3: white dish towel. So what she held onto that while 208 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 3: she stabbed herself in the back with her right hand. 209 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 3: Not only that very disturbing. She has bruising to the 210 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: neck and strap muscles listen, unrelated to the stab. Wounds 211 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: not around a stab classic textbook signs of strangulation. Strangulation 212 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 3: not the cod cause of death. But she was strangled 213 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 3: and subdued and then stabbed dead. There was blood on 214 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 3: the bottom of her ug boots. Clumps of hair had 215 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 3: been torn out, bloody clumps of hair and were between 216 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 3: her legs. She was found sitting up on the kitchen floor, 217 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: her back propped against the cabinets, important the wrong way. 218 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 3: Blood she's sitting up, Sheryl. But blood had trickled, dried 219 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 3: and coagulated, going horizontally from her nose to her ear 220 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: as she's sitting up vertically. Translation, she died laying supine 221 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: on her side, the blood trickle from nose to ear, 222 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 3: and somebody propped her up. 223 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: Correct, no other explanation. 224 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: And let me tell you one of my most vivid 225 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: memories of you is when we are talking about having 226 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: to testify, and I remember saying something like, oh. 227 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: I just wish I could testify almost in private. 228 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: Like you know, like all these people not looking at me, 229 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: because there could be people that are friends of yours. 230 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: And you know how that is, like, you know, you, 231 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: it makes you more nervous, I guess in some ways. 232 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: And then of course the defense family or whoever. But 233 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: you were like, no, it should be such an honor 234 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: for you to, you know, swear to tell the truth, 235 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: nothing but the truth, so help you God, and then 236 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: do it in public. And you said those courthouse doors 237 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: should stay open, they should never even be locked. And 238 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: this thing hit me right in the head when they 239 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: said they had a secret meeting with the police and the. 240 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: DA Okay, this is what happened. So the police are 241 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: told that the door was locked from the inside and 242 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 3: that the fiance had to break it down. And again 243 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: there are many explanations for this. I'm not point of 244 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: the finger at anybody because there's been no investigation. There's 245 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 3: not enough evidence for me to even speculate as to 246 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: who did this. So the fiance comes in and finds her, 247 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: he's down there. Forty five minutes he comes back, she's dead. 248 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 3: And this is what the police see. They see there's 249 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: no sex attack, nothing is stolen, the apartment hasn't been ransacked, 250 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: and so they're like, okay, yes, suicide. To their credit, 251 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 3: which I rarely say when it comes to this particular case, 252 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: they didn't know. They couldn't see the stablings to her back. 253 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: She was fully closed. Okay, So they call it on 254 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: the scene, Oh yeh, to suicide. The body gets to 255 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: the me the MB takes a look at it and 256 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: says homicide. Then within seventy two hours there is a 257 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: closed door meeting with the police. Phillip d another medical 258 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: examiner REP. And an assistant district attorney, who I would 259 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 3: like to add as a female that got immunity on this. 260 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: You know what that stinks to Hi Heaven, she got 261 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 3: immenity about whatever happened in that meeting. Why does she 262 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 3: need immunity anyway? He says that medical examiner Marmon Osborne 263 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: in a sworn up position that's waited me to change 264 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: my ruling to suicide since it's been old to suicide. 265 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: There's no criminal investigation. This has been fourteen years. Her 266 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 3: parents has spent every penny. They just had to sell 267 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: their house to fight this thing. And the mom, Sandy 268 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: told me, we've got a whole episode on it on YouTube. 269 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 3: By the way, the mom told me she thinks that 270 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 3: they've been waiting for her to die and stopped the fight. Awful, brutal, brutal, excruciating, 271 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 3: As I just said, what they've gone through their only child. 272 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 3: This just it's so wrong. It's so wrong and literally painful. 273 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: But who pressures a medical examiner to change his ruling 274 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: from homicide to suicide to cover up a bad job 275 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 3: that the police did on the scene. I don't think 276 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: it's anything nefarious. I don't think anybody was paid off. 277 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: I don't think there's a big, big plot here. I 278 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: think they screwed it up. They did nothing. And listen 279 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 3: to this. The apartment manager called police and said, look, 280 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 3: the fiance's family wants to come get his suit for 281 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: the funeral. And they took some other things out of 282 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 3: the house that they should have had apartment they shouldn't 283 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: have taken, but I understand why they did it. They 284 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: took Ellen's laptop and some other valuables. They gave them 285 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: back to Ellen's family, but they took valuables out for 286 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: safe keeping, and I understand that. I don't think there's 287 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: anything nefarious about that. But still they should not have 288 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 3: allowed anybody into the scene right without police, police escort anyway. 289 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: That said, it could have been taken just for safe keeping. Okay, 290 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: they got all their stuff back, it's not like a 291 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 3: theft or anything. But what I'm saying is that should 292 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 3: not have happened on a crime scene. That could tamny 293 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 3: of the crime scene, even if there were good intentions 294 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 3: on the part of the family. Police let that happen. 295 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 3: And the apartment manager called police and said, hey, can 296 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 3: I clean the apartment? And they go sure, and even 297 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 3: give the manager a crime scene cleanup crew. They sanitize 298 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 3: the scene, bleach cleaner the works. There goes all the 299 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: forensic cabinets, the DNA, the fiber, the hair, that everything, 300 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: the fingerprints gone, thanks PHILLYPD. Next, the manager, in her wisdom, 301 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: took a video before and after, right, you know, essentially 302 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: to prove the cleaning crew didn't steal anything and everything 303 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: was up and up, thank goodness. She took the video 304 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 3: of the scene. Well, she sent it to PHILLYPD and 305 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: they quote lost it. So that's where we are today. 306 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 3: And you know how I hate politics. I hate politicians. 307 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 3: I'd rather try serial murder than deal with politicians. But 308 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 3: Josh Shapiro, who was one foot away from the oval office, 309 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 3: you know, on the Democratic ticket, was the age at 310 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 3: that time, and he refused to look at the case. 311 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 3: He refused to reopen it. The parents begged him, he 312 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 3: would do nothing. So it's just been one disaster after 313 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: the next for the Greenbergs. In the last months, the family, 314 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 3: Allen's family sued the city. They were striking a jury 315 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 3: eleventh hour. It's time for them to take the stand. 316 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 3: He will have to tell everybody under oath what happened 317 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: in that closed door meeting. Just as Chab commenced, the 318 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 3: city settled, so nobody ever took stand. We still don't 319 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: know what happened in the meeting, but they settled, and 320 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: I'm waiting for the District Attorney's office to open the case. 321 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 3: The medical examiner now says, Okay, now I'm convinced it's 322 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 3: not suicide. So now what's happening? Nothing, It never endens. 323 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: Cheryl, your book is such a gift to her family, 324 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: And again, I want everybody to understand every dime goes 325 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: to the National Center of Missing Exploited Children. By buying 326 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: that book, not only are you going to understand what 327 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: went wrong in this case and become a champion for 328 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg, but you're also going to help a lot 329 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: of children. It's not lost on me that the last 330 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: thing that Ellen did in her life was making sure 331 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: her children that she loved were safe made it home safely. 332 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: So for you to donate these proceeds to make sure 333 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: that children make it home safe, that's huge to me. 334 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 3: You know what, Cheryl, you really did me as solid today. 335 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: I really appreciate that. I really really do, and not 336 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 3: on my own behalf, but for them. I feel like, 337 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: I don't know what else I can do besides publicize 338 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: the case, beg the FEDS to take the investigation over. 339 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: You know, the state can't do it now because there's 340 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 3: a conflict. You got Shapiro is the governor. And you know, 341 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 3: I don't think you had any mal intent, didn't care 342 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: one way or the other, but it became a disastrous result. 343 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: Go online a by the book. 344 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: Go online and buy the book. 345 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 2: Let's save some children, and let's get the word out 346 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: about Ellen. 347 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: We're not going to turn the same loose. 348 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 3: I'm super grateful, Cheryl, super grateful. I see you in court. Yeah, 349 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 3: we're going to Coburger. 350 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: Right, we are going to coburger. 351 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 3: Sadly there won't be a salad, will but we'll make 352 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 3: do do. 353 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: All right, honey, I'll do you so bye. I love you, 354 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: Love you too. 355 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: M