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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, Yes, dear listeners, it's exactly a month since

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Speaker 1: the election, and as we know, in many ways, it

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Speaker 1: was a wake up call, a lesson that when it

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Speaker 1: comes to both sides in this country, neither of us

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Speaker 1: really get each other. Ourley Hoakeshield, our guest today, teaches

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Speaker 1: sociology at Berkeley. Yeah. I know what you're thinking, Katie's

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Speaker 1: talking to another person inside that bubble of hers, But

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Speaker 1: that is not really the case because for the past

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Speaker 1: ten years, Arley, who's the grandmother we all wish we had,

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Speaker 1: by the way, has been traveling to ruby communities to

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Speaker 1: get a handle on what's really fueling the anger in

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Speaker 1: our country. For her first book on this topic, Strangers

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Speaker 1: in their Own Land, she headed to Lake Charles, Louisiana

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Speaker 1: now Pikeville, Kentucky. In the heart of Appalachia is the

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Speaker 1: setting of her new book in this same genre, Stolen Pride, Loss, Shame,

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Speaker 1: and the Rise of the Right. Arley scales what she

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Speaker 1: calls the empathy Wall and humanizes Americans in these communities

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Speaker 1: so we can all better understand what is really happening

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Speaker 1: in our divided country. Arlee High, be there. Goodness, I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to meet you and talk to you and

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you had a chance to watch my hour, but

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Speaker 1: it's so weird.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know I didn't. I just now saw it,

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Speaker 2: but I look forward to seeing it on a white anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and it's so so much echoes a lot of

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Speaker 1: the things. In fact, I'm sort of mad that I

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Speaker 1: didn't reach out to you when I was working on

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Speaker 1: this project because it would have been perfect. And I

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Speaker 1: think your name came up because it came out, I

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Speaker 1: believe in twenty eighteen my series for National Geographic and

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Speaker 1: I talked a lot to Joan Williams. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: you know her. She wrote White Working Class for the

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Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review and then it became a book. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but I should have followed you around and we should

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Speaker 1: have made a whole documentary together. That would have been

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Speaker 1: awesome because.

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Speaker 2: I would take you.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because everything you're writing about now

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Speaker 1: and have written about in the past, is so relevant

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Speaker 1: to the conversations people are having today. And that's why

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Speaker 1: I was really excited to have an opportunity to speak

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Speaker 1: with you, because I think so much of what you've

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Speaker 1: written about, so much of what you continue to write about,

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Speaker 1: resonates deeply today because I think you went out to

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Speaker 1: explore what everyone is now asking, why are we so divided?

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Speaker 1: Why do we seem like two different countries? And I

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Speaker 1: think your work really answers those questions, first with a

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Speaker 1: book you wrote previously called Strangers in their Own Land,

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Speaker 1: and now a new book called Stolen Pride. I want

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Speaker 1: to start at the beginning of this journey, though, if

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Speaker 1: I could. What set you out on this path to

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Speaker 1: understand what was happening really in Red America?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel the way is if America is now

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Speaker 2: living with two denials. There's the denial of the democratic

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Speaker 2: side of America that's saying, who are these people? How

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Speaker 2: silly of them to vote for Donald Trump? And what

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Speaker 2: big sector of America that has faced tremendous loss and

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Speaker 2: has lost faith in the government has response to that loss.

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Speaker 2: There's a denial of the democratic side of America, of

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Speaker 2: that whole loss story, and I think we have a

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Speaker 2: big job ahead to address that. But we are facing

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Speaker 2: I think a danger to democracy, and I think there

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Speaker 2: is a discounting and a denial of that on the

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Speaker 2: right side of America. So I think we've got two denials,

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Speaker 2: need to work on both.

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Speaker 1: I love the fact that you describe something called an

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Speaker 1: empathy wall, and you really look at sociology and society

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Speaker 1: writ large from an emotional point of view. Why are

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Speaker 1: people feeling a certain way? And I think you lead

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Speaker 1: with that Why.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for the question, Katie, because I actually

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Speaker 2: believe that we all need to become bilingual. That we're

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Speaker 2: used to speaking just the language of rationality, and what

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Speaker 2: we need to do is to be able to hear

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Speaker 2: and speak in emotions, because there's a curious logic to emotions.

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Speaker 2: There are emotional scripts. There are a whole different story

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Speaker 2: unfolds if we look at emotions. We are emotional creatures.

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Speaker 2: We feel fear, we feel distressed, we feel envy, and

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Speaker 2: in my last book, I feel that we also feel

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Speaker 2: pride and shame, and that unless we're listening to that,

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Speaker 2: we're not seeing the whole story. And actually it feels

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Speaker 2: like the main story, because why is it the main story.

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Speaker 2: It's the main story because if we go back two

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Speaker 2: decades and we look at three decades, look at NAFTA

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Speaker 2: offshoring automation that has created the haves and the have

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Speaker 2: nots of globalization, and so the haves who live in cities,

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Speaker 2: who have bas for whom new opportunities have opened up,

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Speaker 2: aren't looking at the situation of loss. It's not just deprivation,

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Speaker 2: but loss of actually the white blue collar class. So

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Speaker 2: they feeling frightened and a sense of loss. So they

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Speaker 2: have turned to a charismatic figure who works through emotions.

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Speaker 2: And that's why it's important. I believe, for example, that

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump has I think actually as a person his

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Speaker 2: experienced shame and very harsh father, and that would be

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Speaker 2: neither here nor there, except that it's given him enormous

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Speaker 2: insight into the pain of unwarranted shame that a lot

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Speaker 2: of blue color men who feel in free fall have felt.

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Speaker 2: And he I think offers a four moment anti shaming

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Speaker 2: ritual that unless we are biling well, we don't hear

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Speaker 2: and moment one, for example, and it happens repeatedly through

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Speaker 2: different episodes, but moment one of this anti shaming ritual

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Speaker 2: is Donald Trump will say something transgressive, like Asian immigrants

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Speaker 2: are cooking and eating your pedcats and dogs. A moment two,

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Speaker 2: the punditry shames Donald Trump and says, you can't say that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there was one article that turns out it's

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Speaker 2: not true, and you don't repeat something that isn't true. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So the punditry shames Donald Trump. Moment three, Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: becomes the victim of the shamers. Look how hard it

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Speaker 2: is to be put down, to be vilified, And have

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Speaker 2: you been put down? They put you down to y'all, Well,

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Speaker 2: they're putting me down. I'm actually taking the hip for you.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating because a lot of people wonder, you know,

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Speaker 1: how can people who are struggling financially aspire or admire

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Speaker 1: someone like Donald Trump who is so wealthy and so

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Speaker 1: ostentatious and lives a life so completely different than they do.

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Speaker 1: But you're talking about this shame sharing thing that happens

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Speaker 1: that makes them gravitate towards someone that it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a microcosm of what they're feeling daily in their lives.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, Katie, Exactly, Bingo and moment four, he gets revenge

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Speaker 2: for the shaming. He tells them off. He turns shame

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Speaker 2: to blame.

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Speaker 1: That is fascinating. Well, let's get back to Stolen Pride,

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Speaker 1: because well, this is really what we're talking about. But

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Speaker 1: you ended up in Pike County, Kentucky, the Nations, as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, whitest and second poorest congressional district, which by

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Speaker 1: the way, is just a few hours from where JD.

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Speaker 1: Vance wrote Hillbilly Elegy.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's really an interesting psychological turnabout that we can

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Speaker 1: maybe discuss another time. But Stolen Pride focuses on a

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Speaker 1: period of time in twenty seventeen leading up to a

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Speaker 1: plan rally by a white supremacist named Matthew Heinbach, and

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Speaker 1: you actually got to know him during the course of

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Speaker 1: writing this book. And you basically start with Matthew Heimback

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Speaker 1: and another figure in Pikeville who was trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out whether or not to give Matthew Heinbach's organization a

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Speaker 1: permit to protest in Pikeville. Tell us about these two

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Speaker 1: individuals and why you focused on them initially in your book.

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Speaker 2: I focused on them initially in my book because I

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Speaker 2: saw a perfect storm. On the one hand, cold jobs

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Speaker 2: had gone out, opiates, big crisis ongoing have come in.

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Speaker 2: And then there was a neo Nazi march promising a false,

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Speaker 2: I think answer to those problems. This is all white,

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Speaker 2: so blame blacks. So I thought I was looking at

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Speaker 2: a perfect storm, and so I decided to listen to

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Speaker 2: the perpetrator, listen to those who were trying to protect

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Speaker 2: the community against violence that Matthew him bat seemed to

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Speaker 2: bring with him, and I also talked to those who

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Speaker 2: might be hurt by his presence. There was a Holocaust survivor,

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Speaker 2: a ima, a small local mosque, so the potential villains.

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Speaker 2: And then I topped to bottom, side to side, interviewed people,

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Speaker 2: just to try and get a pulse through what eyes

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Speaker 2: would such a man be seen? Is there an appetite

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Speaker 2: for fascists in such an otherwise beautiful area with good people?

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Speaker 2: Could it happen here? And looking at emotions turned out

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Speaker 2: to be the thing to do.

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Speaker 1: And what did you discover, Arlie?

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Speaker 2: I discovered that the townspeople were disinterested in Matthew Heinbach.

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Speaker 2: And they said to me, well, you know our grandfathers.

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Speaker 2: You see those graves on the Hills. We decorate them

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Speaker 2: Memorial Day because they fought against fascism. But the book

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Speaker 2: talks about another parade, and that is for someone that

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Speaker 2: they were taken with that having given up on regular government,

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Speaker 2: here came a figure by the name of Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: who saw them, they felt and understood their grievance. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: the left was laughing at them and not seeing them.

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Speaker 2: They didn't feel understood. Democratic Party seemed to be putting

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Speaker 2: others out of them, gay as women and not had

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Speaker 2: forgotten about social class and laws. And so this Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump had appeal. And while they said no to Matthew Heinbach,

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Speaker 2: they said yes to Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Why did you focus primate early on men in this book?

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Speaker 2: I'm interested in who's in trouble and getting them out

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Speaker 2: of trouble. And I think men are in a crisis.

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Speaker 2: A white man and black men. And one man explained

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Speaker 2: the crisis well to me. And our interview began with

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Speaker 2: his saying, I'm trailer trash okay, And I said, well,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean you know? And he described his family, said,

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Speaker 2: we've been poor. I'm on disability myself, and I grew

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Speaker 2: up with the drugs all around me and frightened of

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Speaker 2: any knock at the door. And I'm used to being

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Speaker 2: described as dumb hillbilly. And he said, this America has

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Speaker 2: two primary narratives. One is of the successful middle class guy,

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Speaker 2: and they say, well, good for you, you've you've had

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Speaker 2: a good job and I can support family. You're a success.

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Speaker 2: You had the American dream. And then America looks at

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Speaker 2: a poor black man and says, well, you didn't get

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Speaker 2: the American dream. But that's because of racism. And we

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Speaker 2: understand that that's that narrative. But what about a guy

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Speaker 2: like me, He said, who's or and male and white.

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Speaker 2: There's no explanation for this. I don't have the American

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Speaker 2: dream and it must be because I'm lazy or I'm done.

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Speaker 2: So he felt anguished, and he didn't He wasn't for

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump, but he wasn't for the Democratic Party either.

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Speaker 2: He felt stuck in the middle. And I think Americans

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Speaker 2: have of good spirit, you know, on the Democratic side

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Speaker 2: understand him and reach out to him and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: we do understand. And that that has been I think

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Speaker 2: a missing piece of the Democratic Party for a while.

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Speaker 2: Out the hole. They're not looking at social class and

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Speaker 2: you need.

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Speaker 1: in a moment. But you make an interesting observation in

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Speaker 1: your book about how Republicans view success and really conversely

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Speaker 1: poverty and how democrats view success. In other words, you

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Speaker 1: talk about Republicans inadvertently blaming poor people because they don't

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Speaker 1: have the pull them up by the bootstrap's mentality, and

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Speaker 1: as a result, people in red states blame themselves, while

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Speaker 1: Democrats focus on the big picture and say, it's not

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Speaker 1: your fault, it's society's fault exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's a kind of a pride paradox, we could say.

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Speaker 2: And it's poignant that those who have suffered the hit

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Speaker 2: economically are also those who subscribe to individualism, and so

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Speaker 2: they likely to say Look, if I make it, that's

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Speaker 2: credit to me, and if I fail, that's my fault,

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Speaker 2: that's my shame. Whereas people blue states are not taking

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Speaker 2: such an economic hit, are more likely to have a

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Speaker 2: circumstantial culture of pride and so well, circumstances were wrong.

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Speaker 2: It's not me personally that's caused my own failure, so

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Speaker 2: they're less likely to beat themselves up.

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Speaker 1: That's compounded by this distrust or inability to accept the

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Speaker 1: governs help. Right, So you have people blaming themselves and

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Speaker 1: thinking that government should not get involved in their lives,

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Speaker 1: at least financially or helping them. So it seems to

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Speaker 1: me this has all the makings of a massive shame

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Speaker 1: spiral for these people in red states.

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Speaker 2: That's right, you know, saying, look, we need to lift

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Speaker 2: the veil and think of feelings in order to see

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Speaker 2: what's really going on on the other side. And that's

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Speaker 2: an example of a painful feeling that we need to understand.

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Speaker 1: I want to read something from your book because I

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Speaker 1: think it so clearly illustrates what you're talking about. You write,

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Speaker 1: So what happens, I wondered when workers are exhorted to

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Speaker 1: believe that capitalism needs no government hand, and that each

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Speaker 1: individual working in it bears personal responsibility for how well

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Speaker 1: or poorly he or she fears. And then companies pull out,

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Speaker 1: those left behind find themselves trapped inside a pride paradox.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'll say this parenthetically. You're referring to these

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Speaker 1: centers where manufacturing got hollowed out and plants moved to

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Speaker 1: either like non Union states or overseas, And I think

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Speaker 1: this quote really describes how people felt. You talked to

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Speaker 1: one man who I thought really encapsulated the downward spiral

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Speaker 1: of shame. Who was that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, that was. I'm so delighted that you found

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Speaker 2: that quote. It did open my own eyes as well.

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Speaker 2: And that quote comes from a young man who's forty now.

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Speaker 2: And when I met him, he was homeless and in

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Speaker 2: a drug recovery center and he had just graduated from

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Speaker 2: it and twelve years of heroin he had overdosed four times.

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Speaker 2: I've talked to him over the last six seven years,

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Speaker 2: some in zoom, and I've talked to his sister who

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Speaker 2: rescued him. He is an amazing, eye opening person.

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Speaker 1: So how old is he now, Arlie?

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Speaker 2: He's forty three, and I just talked to him yesterday.

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Speaker 2: And you know what he told me about denial because

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Speaker 2: I was telling him I think both left are denying things,

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Speaker 2: but different things. And he said, the thing about denial

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Speaker 2: is that you don't know that you are denying. I

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Speaker 2: love this insight, and he's trying to help us lift

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Speaker 2: our denial. And I'm doing it by giving my reader

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Speaker 2: this man.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is what he said. Shame comes gradually. Let

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Speaker 1: me give you an example of guys around where I live.

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Speaker 1: First thing, a guy gets his layoff slip, and he

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Speaker 1: blames the inspector, then the supervisor. Then he shakes his

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Speaker 1: fists at the Obama administration for putting in the Clean

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Speaker 1: Air Act and adds in Biden and the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: in the deep State. Then, when his unemployment runs low

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Speaker 1: and his wife asks for money for groceries for the kids,

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Speaker 1: he faces a hard choice. If you need money and

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Speaker 1: don't have a degree, you've got to leave. But his

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Speaker 1: family's here and he doesn't want to leave. That's when

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Speaker 1: he starts to feel bad about himself. He looks around

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Speaker 1: at the jobs at nine or ten fifty an hour,

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Speaker 1: and he turns his nose up at what he thinks

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Speaker 1: of as girly service jobs because he can't support his

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Speaker 1: family on that kind of money. But then his partner says,

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Speaker 1: we need to feed the kids, so he takes the

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Speaker 1: crap job, and she says there's still not enough money

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Speaker 1: for food, gas and fixing the roof. It's then that

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Speaker 1: his shame begins to get stronger, because now he feels

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Speaker 1: the problem is on him, And if he leaves on

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Speaker 1: Route twenty three looking for work and comes back empty handed,

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Speaker 1: that's shame waiting for him at home. Then if he

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Speaker 1: gets into drugs take it from me, he's ashamed. That

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Speaker 1: can lead to divorce and separation from his kids. And

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Speaker 1: now he's on the dole. He always felt superior to

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Speaker 1: others he saw on the dole, and now he's on

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Speaker 1: it too, So he's ashamed about that and mad that

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Speaker 1: he's made to feel ashamed. Then he may read some

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Speaker 1: op ed in the Appalachian News Express calling people like

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Speaker 1: him a deadbeat for not supporting his family and paying

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Speaker 1: taxes the town needs for its sewer repair. He's not

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Speaker 1: a contributor. On top of all that, he sees on

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Speaker 1: the internet people outside the region firing inside at him

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Speaker 1: as ignorant, racist, sexist, or homophobic. Now he's mad at

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Speaker 1: the shamers, and by this point he's forgotten about the shame.

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Speaker 1: He's just plain pissing mad. Doesn't that say it all?

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Speaker 2: It really does say it all. It says it all. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so what happens then if you have half the

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Speaker 2: population that doesn't understand that story, or passes over it,

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Speaker 2: or doesn't see its significance because they're not looking at feelings,

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Speaker 2: then you have the situation we're in.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've done a lot of reading and reporting

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Speaker 1: on loneliness and the epidemic of loneliness in this country,

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Speaker 1: and I have this thesis, and it's probably not original

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people gravitate to these groups because

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Speaker 1: they want to belong and it doesn't matter what group

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Speaker 1: they're joining, they just want to feel a part of something.

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Speaker 1: And as church attendance and community activities have declined and

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Speaker 1: kawanis clubs and all those things that used to be

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Speaker 1: gathering places for people are not as active or accessible,

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Speaker 1: that people are joining these groups and then they have

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Speaker 1: the foundation of grievance and loss. It's almost a replacement

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Speaker 1: for community.

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Speaker 2: I love your themes, Katie. I think it's right on.

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Speaker 2: It's really brilliant.

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Speaker 1: It's probably your thesis that I just stole.

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Speaker 2: No, no, it's yours, and I think it's another way.

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Speaker 2: And if we take the blinders of what's going on

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Speaker 2: on the other side, it makes it more, it makes

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Speaker 2: it understandable. And with this instead of the Kuwanas club

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Speaker 2: or the bowling club, we do know that nowurd mobility

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Speaker 2: goes with a loss of community and more people living

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Speaker 2: alone and worse health. So put all that together with

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Speaker 2: this new found community in politics where there's kind of

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Speaker 2: a it's a Petrie dish for rancor and complaint and

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Speaker 2: blaming you. Now we we shamed are blaming together collectively.

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Speaker 2: How fun it is and there's kind of a euphoria

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Speaker 2: getting rid of the blame and being how together. It's

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Speaker 2: a new and scary form of community, but is a

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Speaker 2: response I think to loss.

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Speaker 1: When I mentioned that, I was thinking about Alex Hughes,

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Speaker 1: who really ran into trouble. I'm going to do another

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Speaker 1: dramatic reading for you, our Lee of your own book.

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Speaker 1: Here we go. Alex Hughes was part of the eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of Pike County residents who voted for Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty. Alex's American dream was

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Speaker 1: not to own a coal company, but to earn a

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Speaker 1: bachelor's degree, which required money his family lacked, or to

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Speaker 1: be a government administrator. Alex's dream was to provide well

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Speaker 1: for his family, perhaps as a small business owner, and

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Speaker 1: the economic downturn had been holding a knife to that plan.

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Speaker 1: His maternal grandfather had been severely injured in the mines

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Speaker 1: and warned Alex's father and Alex himself to find safer work.

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Speaker 1: At age sixteen, Alex moved in with his grandparents and

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Speaker 1: started painting houses. By nineteen he had started a small

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Speaker 1: business painting houses and married. But by the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: Alex's bootstrap yes sure strategy no longer brought in steady

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Speaker 1: work quote and now I had to pay both my

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Speaker 1: bills and my business loan. By then I was divorced

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Speaker 1: and had my daughter to care for. So when I

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Speaker 1: lost my business and got in debt for one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty eight thousand dollars to the irs, that's when

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Speaker 1: things really got bad. The house gone, the car gone,

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Speaker 1: the furniture gone, my wife's and my wedding rings ponnd.

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Speaker 1: I was in freefall. I felt like there was no

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Speaker 1: place for me. I had to ask myself, what did

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Speaker 1: I do wrong? This man's life, though, changed, didn't it? Arlie?

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Speaker 1: When he saw an advertisement for a paid six month

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Speaker 1: training program sponsored by a Louisville based company called Interapt.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about that and how transformative these retraining

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Speaker 1: programs can be and why we need to do more

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Speaker 1: of it?

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Speaker 2: Right? You know, we were just talking about the importance

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Speaker 2: of community. Your thesis about hey, the loss of community,

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Speaker 2: and then there can be these scary adheriant violence substitutes

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Speaker 2: for community, while INTERAPT isn't just the opposite. Example. Here

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Speaker 2: is a community of people that Alex joined who happened

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Speaker 2: to pass the test to qualify for a six month

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Speaker 2: paid training program in Louisville. And I went to visit

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Speaker 2: that training program and watch it and talk to the

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Speaker 2: students there, and one after another after another, all unemployed

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Speaker 2: had been through rough rough times, many from eastern Kentucky

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Speaker 2: kind of no good jobs, and they came there, and

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Speaker 2: like Alex had felt kind of beaten up, he'd try

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Speaker 2: to start a tattoo parlor, and he blamed himself. I

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Speaker 2: should have seen the handwriting on the wall. Fewer people

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Speaker 2: came in I wasn't making money. I didn't redirect. So

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Speaker 2: he's kind of blaming himself. And he'd been turned down

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Speaker 2: for a lot of jobs that he applied to, so

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Speaker 2: he felt shamed and beaten up. So he got to

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Speaker 2: this interact training program and he's sitting around the table

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Speaker 2: with ten other students, and if he ran into a

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Speaker 2: problem and he told him said, look, I can't do

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Speaker 2: this stuff. You know, I'm not really skilled this way.

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Speaker 2: The guy next to him was saying, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 2: used to feel that way. Here's it's easier than you think.

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Speaker 2: And they would help each other and he he became

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Speaker 2: a great helper to the others and felt good about

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Speaker 2: himself to be the helper guy because he really was

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Speaker 2: gifted with this. And it was, he later said, transformative.

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Speaker 2: He got his self esteem back, and that's what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about. We're talking about getting your pride back. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of your pride can be based on helping others.

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Speaker 2: And in his case, you know, the sweet, wonderful person,

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Speaker 2: and he got to be the giver. And so that

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Speaker 2: was true for other students in this class, whom I

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Speaker 2: followed back to the tiny towns where I interviewed them,

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Speaker 2: some lived in places that weren't on the Google map

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Speaker 2: that had to meet somebody at gas station to go

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Speaker 2: and visit them.

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Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

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00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

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00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

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00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. How

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Speaker 1: did you get people to open up to you, Arlie?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're a woman about my age, maybe a

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Speaker 1: couple of years older. Old you are, you know, from Berkeley.

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Speaker 1: Was it hard for you to get people to trust you,

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Speaker 1: to open up to you, to tell you their stories

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Speaker 1: and to share their shame.

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Speaker 2: No, No, it wasn't hard, and it's I think you're

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Speaker 2: the same kind of person as Ion. It takes a

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Speaker 2: little at first, and then you're two people and you're

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Speaker 2: sitting down and I'm really interested to get to know

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Speaker 2: their story. And I think what it takes is first

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Speaker 2: you get your alarm system off, and then if there

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00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: are stereotypes to deal with, you deal with them. Like

433
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: one guy said, oh, you're from Berkeley, California road and well,

434
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: people look down on us. You know, it's done. Hill

435
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: relyes like that and people have stereotypes of us, and

436
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, people have stereotypes about people that come

437
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: from Berkeley, too, So there was a laugh at that.

438
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: And then I share that my grandma grew up on

439
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: a dairy farm in Maine, you know, and I was

440
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: howeing the garden and loved it, but you know, she

441
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: those broccoli really need tending. And they say, well, we

442
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, we're ridiculed for accents, our Southern accents. And

443
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: I said, well, my father had a very strong Boston accent.

444
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: He used to call me Ali's heard my name. I'm

445
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: used to it being whirling. So we're in the same ball.

446
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: It's not so different like that.

447
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people could learn from taking

448
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: your approach. I do think that people who have college

449
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 1: degrees have been condescending to a lot of these people.

450
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: I think it's less about their income and more that

451
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: they believe to your earlier point that blaming immigrants, blacks

452
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: women for their troubles is just racism and sexism and xenophobia.

453
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: How did you come to understand if people were that

454
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: way and did you forgive them for those attitudes.

455
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 2: Yes, there are things I heard that I personally disagree with.

456
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: And going in I tell people that we're not going

457
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: to agree on a lot of things. That's not why

458
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: I'm here to tell you what I believe. I'm really

459
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: here because I think a lot of people on the

460
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: Democratic side of America aren't listening and don't.

461
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: Get to know you or don't understand.

462
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. And I guess what I would add

463
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: to that is that on the left there are rightesses

464
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: against you know, men, I can'tst white men, and that

465
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 2: we need to look again and dismantle. In other words,

466
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: they feel like a minority group. I know it sounds.

467
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: Strange, but well, they feel like they've been the target

468
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: of reverse racism, they would say. In fact, many of

469
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: them told you that right they did.

470
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: So. I think it's time for people on the left

471
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 2: to take their alarm system off to actually actually start,

472
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: once we catch our breath, to build new empathy bridges

473
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: to portions of the white working class. I don't think

474
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 2: it would be hard to do. And there are many

475
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: ways in which Donald Trump is far more extreme than

476
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: his followers, and those would be issues on which we

477
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: could get common ground, for example, climate change. They're a

478
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: majority of Republicans, there majority of Republicans strong majority of

479
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: Democrats agree that the government should spend money in remediating

480
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: climate change. I don't agree on the causes of it,

481
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: but they do agree something should be done about it.

482
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: Majority of bare majority of the public, and strong majority

483
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 2: of Democrats agree that children in schools should learn about

484
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: climate change and the dangers of it. So that's crossover territory.

485
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: I think prison reform you would find quite a lot

486
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 2: of cross party agreement and reproductive rights. So rather than

487
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: kind of settling for judgment, we should realize that we've

488
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: actually been in denial about a whole social shift that

489
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: has led a lot of Americans to become predisposed to

490
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 2: a charismatic leader that's with great promises of a new day.

491
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: And it's happening not just in America, it's happening actually

492
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: around the world. In this last election, there's been a

493
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: giant move away from income and governments toward right wing government.

494
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: So you know, we shouldn't say, oh, what did can

495
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: will do wrong? You're in there, Okay, we should do

496
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: those appraisals, but there is a larger set of forces

497
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: and we should I think that's what these last two books,

498
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: especially my last strangers to tune into the circumstances and

499
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: then the feelings that those circumstances make people feel. So

500
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: you get our answers from.

501
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: I was going to say the first step is obviously understanding,

502
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: but the second step I don't know. I'm very a

503
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 1: solution oriented person. And since your book is called Stolen Pride,

504
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: Lost Shame, and the Rise of the Right, I guess

505
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: my final question to you, Arlie is how do we

506
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: collectively as a nation restore pride to some of these

507
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: towns and some of these people.

508
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think by making clear that that left

509
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 2: and right share, first of all, the goal of restoring right.

510
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: We get it, we want it. That's the first thing

511
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: to do. And in doing that first thing, we have

512
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 2: to realize that actually people on the left are less

513
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 2: good at listening across the partisan divide. Recent research found

514
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 2: that people on the liberal left are more likely to

515
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: break off contact with people that say something they disagree

516
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: with than are people on the right. Whites are more

517
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: likely to do it than blacks. So paradox is that

518
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: research also shows that conservatives are more likely to soften

519
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: their positions if they get to meet somebody face to

520
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: face and sit down and get to know them personally.

521
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: So we need to break that impass for starters and

522
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: then search the kinds of issues in which we could

523
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: come to some common agreement. I met a lot of

524
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: people in these deep red communities who were for renewable energy.

525
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: One big MAGA leader pointed to me said, all those

526
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: those sought off mountains there, we need some windmills on

527
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 2: the windmills. So that's a Biden built back better and

528
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: the inflation reduction at kind of measures of pain for

529
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So he he doesn't kind of

530
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 2: acknowledge it, or I don't know. One could say, hey,

531
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: that's a good idea. You know, we should have windmills,

532
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: so get rid of the shaming by me and on

533
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 2: with on which both sides could outly agree. I think

534
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: that's the way to go, and just being a bystander

535
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: it's not the way to go. We all need to participate.

536
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: Now it's serious what we're facing.

537
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: I kept thinking about Brian Stephenson, and my team is

538
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: so sick of me fawning over Brian Stephenson. But he

539
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: talks about the need to be proximate, and I think

540
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: the fact that there's not much co mingling between people

541
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: who live in urban centers and people who live in

542
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: more rural communities is part of the problem that we

543
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: just don't know people who are really that different from us,

544
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: and we all are in our little bubbles, and I

545
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: think those need to be penetrated from both sides.

546
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 2: You know, we used to have labor unions that were

547
00:40:54,280 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: basically the middleman between the working class and the Democratic Party.

548
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: Those got undercut by offshoring.

549
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: And by greedy corporations. I should add, but although I

550
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: know unions sometimes get out of control, and I have

551
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: arguments with friends about unions, and you know, if they're

552
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: corrupt and they overreach, but I also think they're so

553
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: important to protect people from greedy corporations who just care

554
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: about quarterly profits in the bottom line and pleasing their shareholders. Right,

555
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: that's right.

556
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: And the terrible thing is the more we don't have

557
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: things like unions that ameliorate people's lives, the more distressed

558
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: they are, the more emotionally open to charismatic leaders. So

559
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: we need to break the cycle.

560
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: My daughter reminded me of an FDR fireside chat that

561
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: he gave about the key to stability is really economic prosperity.

562
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: For every one, and if you don't have that, or

563
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: there's such a huge chasm between the haves and have nots,

564
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: that is a recipe for terrible unrest and social instability

565
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: and worse. So yeah, I think that we need to

566
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: figure out how to make everyone feel like they have

567
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: a chance to just have a good life and create

568
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, stability for their families and for their children.

569
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: Right, and that just pointing to an enemy, you know,

570
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: the intruder of the immigrant, you know, the black, the

571
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 2: woman is not a real solution. But I think we

572
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: need to get new channels across this political divide to

573
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: stop that blaming and get some faith back, some real

574
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: community back in America.

575
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: Well, we'll see if that can happen. I think your

576
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: book is a great start for people to read because

577
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: I think what you do is humanize people. And I

578
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: think so many groups have been dehumanized in our current culture,

579
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: whether you're talking about immigrants, or you're talking about black Americans,

580
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: or you're talking about poor white men in rural communities,

581
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: and I think to give them a name and a

582
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: face and to tell their stories is really critically important

583
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: for us to better understand what's going on and try

584
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: to fix it. Harley, It's been such a pleasure talking

585
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: to you. I really enjoyed meeting you, and I love

586
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: your work and I'm going to recommend it to all

587
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: my friends who are scratching their heads and trying to

588
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: understand what's going on in this country of ours.

589
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie, you do wonderful work too well. Thanks

590
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: a chance to talk to you.

591
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: Thank you, Aurlie. And hopefully we'll meet one day in person.

592
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm looking forward to that.

593
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

594
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

595
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

596
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

597
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

598
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,

599
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

600
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

601
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

602
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

603
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app or visit

604
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

605
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

606
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