WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 44 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.320 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.120 can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to it 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:33.680 could happen here. I'm your host today. It's Sharine Um 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.479 and I'm going to be flying solo for the next 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.879 few episodes. We're going to be talking about Syria. Spoiler alert. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.919 I am Syrian and I think there's a lot of 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.040 history and news about Syria that really goes under the 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.920 radar and not a lot of people know about. So 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:55.720 I thought it would be important to shed some light 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:05.320 about how Syria became ruled by a dictatorship. Family. Um, 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:10.880 the Assad family have destroyed Syria. Imagine a country being 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:17.120 run by the mafia. They're very powerful, very secretive, very 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.760 very rich. There are no numbers that can illustrate the 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:25.639 scale of Syria's loss and destruction. Literally, because the United 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:30.320 Nations hasn't been able to calculate the death toll for years. So, 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.480 as I mentioned, these episodes are going to be about Syria. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.960 The first two will be about how hop Is said 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.360 rose to power, which has since led the Assad family 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.840 to have control over Syria for more than half a century. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.280 And then the one following that will be about his 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.960 son Basha, who is the current dictator of Syria, and 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.280 that one will have more topical information, maybe more like 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.400 economic stuff versus historical information, which we're going to start with. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.840 But I think understanding the history of the Syrian government 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.840 provides vital context to understanding the present. And there is 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.160 a lot to cover here and a lot that I 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.680 won't be able to get to, but hopefully we can 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.040 chip away at it. And this is a good semi 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.800 coherent summary of how hof has climbed his way to 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:21.840 the very top of Syrian authority. So the Assads in Arabic, 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.400 it's as said, So apologize if I go back and 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:29.040 forth between those two. But they're from Kardaja, originally a 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.120 village in northwest Syria in the Syrial coastal mountains. The 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:37.680 family name said goes back to seven when Nili Sulayman, 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:42.239 who was Hafs father, changed his last name to which 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.720 is Arabic for the Lion. People say this is possibly 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.240 in connection to his social standing as a local mediator 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.440 and his political activities. All members of the extended Assad 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.480 family stem from Ali sulai Men and his second wife, Nissa. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.760 The Assads are Shia Muslims, more specifically, of the Allohite sect. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.720 Allo Whites are a religious minority, and they initially opposed 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.920 a United Syrian state because they thought their status as 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.679 a religious minority would endanger them and Half as his father, 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.200 he shared this belief. After the French left Syria in 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.160 ninety six, many Syrians mistrusted the Allo Whites because of 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.639 their alignment with France. Half Has eventually left his Allo 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.799 White village. Beginning his education at age nine in Latakia, 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.720 which had a Sunni majority, he became the first of 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.880 his family to attend high school, and while he was 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.320 an education he lived in a poor, predominantly Allo White 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.680 part of Attackia. To fit in, he approached political parties 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.840 that welcomed Allo Whites. These parties, which also embraced secularism, 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.920 worthy Syrian Communist Party, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:56.160 s s MP and the Arab Bath Party. Bath is 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.920 biath in Arabic, but we know it as both spell 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.800 be a apostrophe a t h in English, and he 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.000 joined this political party in ninety six. Some of his 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.920 friends belonged to the s s NP and the Bath 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:16.120 Party embraced a pan Arabist socialist ideology, and he proved 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.560 to be an asset to the party. He organized Bath 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.720 students seals, and he carried out the party's message to 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.960 poor sections of Attakia and two Alloway villages. He was 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.599 opposed by the Muslim Brotherhood, which at the time allied 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:33.320 itself with wealthy and conservative Muslim families. Asad's high school 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.680 accommodated students from rich and poor families, and he was 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.320 joined by poor, anti establishment Sunny Muslim youth from the 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.720 Bath Party and confrontations with students from wealthy Brotherhood families. 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.640 He made many Sunny friends and some of whom later 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.920 became his political allies. While he was still a teenager, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.480 Asad became increasingly prominent in the party as an organizer 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.880 and a recruiter, and he was the head of his 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.720 school's student affairs committee from to one and he was 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.200 also the president of the Union of Syrian Students. During 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.960 his political activism in school, he met many men who 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.119 would later serve him when he became president. And reading 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:13.960 about this, I mean, I'll be honest, and I learned 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.400 a lot even preparing for these episodes. It's so interesting 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.320 because you read about this man and on the surface, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.080 he seems not too bad when he started out, Like 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:28.560 his ideas aren't terrible. I think power eventually corrupts everybody, 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.039 and I just have so many questions and thoughts about 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.760 how someone becomes evil. I mean, that's such a blanket, 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.520 like maybe like make believe way to describe someone. But 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:47.160 the things that the Sad family eventually does is horrific. 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.240 And it's interesting to see where this man started as 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.320 a child as a teenager. On one hand, it humanizes him. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.440 On the other hand, it just shows how much he 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.520 had changed um and maybe he was always this way 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.600 and it's just on paper doesn't seem so bad. I 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:09.159 don't know, Sorry, Tangent, Let's continue. So after he graduated 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.719 from high school, as Sad aspired to be a medical doctor, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.720 but his father could not pay for his studies, so instead, 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.440 in nineteen fifty he decided to join the Syrian armed forces. 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.360 He entered the military Academy in Plumps and the Flying 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.920 school in Aleppo, and then he graduated ninety five, after 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.280 which he was commissioned a lieutenant of the Syrian Air Force. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.120 He married Anissa Mahluf in nineteen fifty seven, who is 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:38.240 a distant relative of the powerful Mahlouf family. In ninety five, 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.760 the Syria military split in a revolt against then President 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:47.800 Adeb and Ski, which led Hashim to take power as president. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.080 He had been president before, and Syria was again under 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:55.760 civilian rule. So after ninety five a Tassi who in 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:01.680 English both him and as shask A removed in front 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:06.080 of their names, so you'll see just Atasi or so 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.080 when I say those that's what I mean. It's just 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.200 it's hard to break away when this is like the 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.520 language in your head sometimes. But I gotta stop with 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.360 these tangents. See this is my first cetle episode, and um, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.960 this is what you get. But after hold on the 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.720 country was increasingly shaky. As a result of the election, 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:33.600 was replaced by Shukri Kwatli, who was president before Syria's 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.000 independence from France. The Bath Party grew closer to the 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.560 Communist Party at this time, but not because of shared ideology, 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.800 but rather a shared opposition to the West. At the 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.520 military academy, Assad met Mustafa Plas, which will be his 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.400 future Minister of Defense. Assad was then sent to Egypt 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.000 for a further six months of training, and when Jamal 0:07:56.120 --> 0:08:01.360 Agda Nasid, president of Egypt nash analized the Suez Canal 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.480 in fifty six, Syria feared retaliation from the United Kingdom 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.480 and Assad flew in an air defense mission. He was 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.480 among the Syrian pilots who flew to Cairo to show 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.800 Syria's commitment to Egypt. In fifty seven, as squadron commander, 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.320 he was sent to the Soviet Union for training and 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.440 flying m i G seventeens, which I looked up and 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.400 it's a high subsonic fighter aircraft that was produced by 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.240 the Soviet Union from fifty two onward and operated by 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.760 air forces internationally. The more you know, but essentially he 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.000 went to the Soviet Union to train and flying these 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.480 things for ten months. Let's go back to fifty eight. Nope, 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.360 we're not going back, We're going forward. In Syria and 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:51.480 Egypt formed the United Arab Republic, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:57.559 and Pakistan and Turkey. In Syria and Egypt formed the 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:03.760 United Arab Republic you a R, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.320 and Turkey, and these countries were aligned with the United Kingdom. 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.360 This pact led to the rejection of communist influence in 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.800 favor of Egyptian control over Syria. All Syrian political parties, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.559 including the Bath Party, were dissolved and senior officers, especially 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.439 those who had supported the Communists, were dismissed from the 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.079 Syrian armed forces. Assad however, remained in the army and 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.640 quickly rose through the ranks. After reaching the rank of captain, 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.000 he was transferred to Egypt, continuing to the military education 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.680 with the future President of Egypt, Hosta Ni Mubadak. However, 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.679 Assad was not content with a professional military career. He 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.079 viewed it merely as a gateway to a career in 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.679 politics a k A power. After the creation of the 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.640 u a R, the Bath Party experienced a crisis for 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.839 which several of its members, mostly young members, blamed the 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.120 party leader, who at the time was Michel A Flock. 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.400 He was a Syrian philosopher and sociology just In an 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.839 Arab nationalist, and his ideas played a significant role in 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:09.520 the development of Batheism and its political movement. He's considered 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.000 by several both fists to be the principal founder of 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.960 both Fist thought. So. He had some opposition, however, because 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:20.679 after the creation of the a R there was some 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.480 unrest to resurrect the Syrian national branch of the party, 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:29.000 Assad joined others in establishing the Military Committee in fifty 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.040 seven and fifty eight. Assad rose to a dominant position 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.559 in the Military Committee, which mitigated his transfer to Egypt. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.839 After Syria left the EU a R in September of 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.400 sixty one, Assad other Bothist officers were removed from the 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.319 military by the new government in Damascus, and he was 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.439 given a minor clerical position at the Ministry of Transport. 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.200 Asad played a minor role in the failed nineteen sixty 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.080 two military coup, for which he was jailed in Lebanon 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.360 and then later repatriated. That year, Michel A Flock, the 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.959 Bath Party leader, convened the fifth National Congress of the 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.680 Bath Party, where he was reelected as the Secretary General 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.520 of the National Command, and then he ordered the re 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:14.079 establishment of the party's Syrian regional branch. There there's a 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.319 lot of congresses, there's a lot of branches, there's a 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.760 lot of committees. Uh. It gets really confusing, just these 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:24.719 men shutting down and then re igniting these things. So 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.040 bear with me here. At this congress, the Military Committee 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.120 established contacts with a Fluk and the civilian leadership. The 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.480 committee requested permission to cease power by force, and a 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.240 Fleck agreed to this conspiracy. After the success of the 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.439 Iraqi coup led by the Bath Party's Iraqi regional branch, 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.640 the Military Committee hastily convened to launch their own Bathist 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.360 military coup in March of nineteen sixty three against President 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.480 Nasim el Lets, which Assad helped plan. He helped plan 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.440 this coup. During this coup, he led a small group 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.640 to capture the Dumayette Air Base, about twenty five miles 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.000 north of Damascus. Assad's group was the only one that 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.559 encountered resistance. Some planes at the base were ordered to 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.679 bomb the conspirators, and because of this, Assad hurried to 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.880 reach the base before dawn because the sevente armored brigades 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.000 surrender took longer than anticipated. However, Assad arrived there in 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.840 broad daylight. When Assad threatened the base commander with shelling, 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:31.880 the commander negotiated a surrender. Later, Assad claimed that the 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:36.600 base could have easily withstood his forces, so his bluff worked, 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.839 and this garnered him a lot of respect. Not long 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.360 after Assad's election to the regional command, the military Committee 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.160 ordered him to strengthen the committee's position in the military establishment. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.600 In doing so, Assad may have received the most important 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.679 job of all, because his primary goal was to end 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.679 factionalism in the Syrian military and make it a Bath monopoly. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:03.280 He said he had to create a ideological army to 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.880 help with this task. He recruited Zeki Arsuzi, who was 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.959 the person who actually indirectly inspired him to join the 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.079 Bath party in the first place. When he was young. 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:16.800 Arsuzi accompanied us said on tours of military camps, where 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.240 Arsuzi lectured the soldiers on Bathist thought and gratitude for 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.960 his work, Asad gave Arsuzi a government pension, and Assad 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.680 continued his bathification of the military by appointing loyal officers 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.760 to keep positions and ensuring that the political education of 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.640 the troops was not neglected. He demonstrated his skill as 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.760 a logistical leader during this period, and he was said 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.840 to have a highly intelligent mastery of detail, which garnered 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.120 him a lot of respect. And I want to make 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.199 this clear. I talked to my mom a bit about 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:53.559 this and doing this research, and has said was very smart. 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.760 He was known as a very smart man. He knew 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.400 what he was doing at every turn, despite what seems 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.440 like it's like he this fell into his lap or like, uh, 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.160 later you'll see that the president he he overthrew, had 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.319 no idea he had didn't see him as a threat. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.400 But but I mean before and after he took power, 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:19.800 he was known to be very cunning. And so yeah, 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:24.200 I just think that's an important little um being to 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.680 take note of. Even in school, they were saying that 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.320 he was an excellent student. So he has a plan, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.520 I think for most of this. But let's take a 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.960 little break and we'll be right back to finish this up. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:44.240 Well this part, I mean, okay, whatever, I'm sorry, we're back. Wow. Okay. So, 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:49.040 after he had been bathifying the military, he was promoted 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.560 to major and then to lieutenant colonel, and by the 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.200 end of nineteen sixty four, he was in charge of 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.000 the Syrian Air Force as the Air Force Commander Assad 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.840 gave privileges to Air Force officer, and he appointed his 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.520 confidence to senior and sensitive positions, and he established an 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.840 efficient intelligence network. Air Force intelligence, under the command of 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:14.120 Muhammad al Huli, became independent of Syria's other intelligence organizations 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:19.240 and received assignments beyond Air Force jurisdiction. Assad prepared himself 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.760 for an active role in the power struggles that were 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.880 soon to come. As I said, he's cunning, he knows 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.240 what he's doing in the aftermath of the nineteen sixty 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.360 three coup. At the first Regional Congress, Assad was elected 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:36.000 to the Syrian Regional Command, the highest decision making body 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.600 in the Syrian regional branch. It's so confusing, I can't 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.920 keep track. And while this was not a leadership role, 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.520 it was Assad's first appearance in national politics, which is 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.560 a significant thing to point out because, as you'll see, 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.440 it only grows. During the nineteen sixty four Hamma riot, 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.760 Assad voted to suppress the uprising violently if needed. This 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.400 decision to suppress the Hamma Raya led to conflict within 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.560 the military Committee, which I'm going to skip over because 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.240 it's a more clusterfucky than ever. But ultimately in sixty 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.880 five the eighth National Congress. During this Assad was elected 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.040 to the National Command, the party's highest decision making body. 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.360 I know, I just said that about something else, but 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.800 that was about the Syrian Regional Branch. There are a 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.200 lot of parties and commands and branches and committees. As 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.480 I said, just know that it's a group of men 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.560 probably that just make decisions. But he was elected to 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.560 this highest making body, this this party of people, and 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.760 it said that asad abhorred a fluck, the party leader 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.840 of the Bathist Party, Assad considered a fluck, a autocrat 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.160 and a rightist, accusing him of ditching the party by 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.680 ordering the dissolution of the Syrian Regional Branch. In fifty eight, 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.240 in response to the eminent coup that was about to 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.240 happen that Assad knew was going to happen, he left 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:58.040 for London. In the nineteen sixty six Syrian coup, the 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:02.480 Military Committee overthrew the National Command. The coup led to 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.880 a permanent split in the bath movement and the advent 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.199 of neo Bathism, as well as the establishment of two 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.280 centers of the International Bathist Movement, one Iraqi and the 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.040 other Syrian dominated. After the coup, Assad was appointed Minister 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.680 of Defense. This was his first cabinet post, but despite 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.360 his title, he actually had little power in the government 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.160 and took more orders than he gave. Salafaded, who helped 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.600 Assad established the Military Committee years prior, was the undisputed 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.280 leader at the time, and he opted to remain in 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.040 the office of Assistant Regional Secretary of the Syrian Regional 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.280 Command instead of taking executive office, which had historically been 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:48.600 held by sunnies Jaded, trying to establish his authority, focused 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:52.119 on civilian issues and gave Assad de facto control of 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.520 a Syrian military, considering him no threat at all. During 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:01.040 the failed coup of late nineteen sixty six, Salim Hathum 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.479 tried to overthrow Jadid's government. Hathum was a military officer 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.879 and he felt snubbed when he was not appointed to 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.200 the Regional Command after the sixty six coup, and he 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.880 sought revenge and the return to power of Hammoud and Shuffi, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.840 who was the first regional secretary of the Regional Command. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.840 After the Syrian regional Branches re establishment is sixty three. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.320 Oh my god, so many branches and everything. I'm just 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.840 team just design on one group. Anyway, when Jaded, they 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.119 see in the regional command member Jama, visited the city 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.800 of Sueeda, the forces loyal to Hatum surrounded the city 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.600 and they captured them. The city's Drews leaders forbade the 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.600 murder of their guests and demanded the hat Um wait. 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.760 So Jaded and the others were placed under house arrest, 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.360 with Hatoum planning to kill them at his first opportunity 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.080 because he wanted revenge. When word of the mutiny spread 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:01.200 to the Ministry of Defense a Assad, Assad ordered the 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:06.200 seventieth Armored Brigade to the city of Sueida. By this time, Hatum, 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.280 who was a Drew's, knew that a Sad would order 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.119 the bombardment of Sueida, which was a Druis dominated city, 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.320 if Hatum did not accept Assad's demands. So this led 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.080 to Hattum and his supporters to flee to Jordan's eventually, 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.879 where they were given asylum. But due to his prompt 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:29.919 action and his protection of Jadid and the other members 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.120 that were captured, a Sad earned Jadid's gratitude after this incident. 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.760 So I know, I just casually mentioned this word a 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.600 minute ago, and so just to the people that aren't 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.639 aware of what it means. No, again, a lot more 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:45.880 to delve into than what I'm just going to say 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.679 right now. But Drew's are members of an Arabic speaking 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.240 ethno religious group originate in Western Asia there largely in 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.840 Lebanon and Syria now and they originally developed out of 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:03.439 Shia Islam. Even though most Drewis members are most Drews 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.800 rather do not identify as Muslim. They practiced their own 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.600 religion that is called Drusism. I've been trying to say 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.440 that word for a long time. Daniel cut out me, 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.399 saying in a bunch of times, um, I apologize that 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.760 I probably mispronounced it, But the point is they practiced 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.080 their own sect of religion that originated from the Shia 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.080 Islamic sect way back when. But at this point they're 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.159 their own religious group. So moving on that, I just 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.440 wanted to shed light on that word in case people 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:42.360 didn't know. Back to Syria. So, after this incident took 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.560 place and after Assad basically came to the rescue, Jadid 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.320 had a lot of gratitude for him, and continuing in 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.879 the aftermath of the sixty six coup attempt, Assad and 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:57.840 Jadeed purge the party's military organization ASAD removed and estimated 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:02.040 a four hundred officers, and this was Syria's largest military 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.399 purge to date. But the purges which began when the 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.879 Both Party took power in sixty three had left the 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.240 military week and as a result, when the Six Day 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:17.480 War broke out, Syria had no chance of victory. I 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.120 feel like this is maybe a good place to say 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.439 goodbye for the day. I thought it would be more 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.040 digestible if these episodes were shorter instead of being an 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.120 epic tale that could run over an hour. But yeah, 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.680 let's say goodbye. This is Sharene, this is it could 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:39.600 happen here? Here you tomorrow, talk to you tomorrow. Why 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:59.680 do I have this job? Okay, goodbye? Wow, we're back. Um, 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.880 this is Sharine and this is it can happen. That's 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:04.320 all I'm in the name of podcast. This is it 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:09.920 could happen here. I'm so sorry. Um. But last episode, Um, 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.000 we talked about Syria and the history of how happsite 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:19.520 said eventually came into power and how he subsequently let 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.760 his family become dictators of this country for over half 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:26.840 a century and how they've destroyed it. But we are 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.840 still in the sixties right now, So let's just continue 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.080 from where we left off. UH. Last time, I had 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:38.600 just ended mentioning the Sixth Day War, UH, and how 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.440 Syria was defeated in the Sixth Day War. This is 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:43.720 a topic that should be episodes all on its own, 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:48.160 but just very very roughly summarize the Sixth Day War 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.320 as it's called. It's also called the nineties sixty seven 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:57.280 war and the June War. It's interesting because Israeli's call 0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:59.720 it the sixth Day War, and that's become the term 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.520 that everyone uses, but differing terms for differing people, I suppose. 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.560 But essentially, on June five, nineteen sixty seven, just three 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.640 weeks after it marked the nineteenth anniversary of its founding, 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.560 Israel went to war with the armies of Egypt, Syria 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:21.439 and Jordan's and defeated them essentially, very very rough summary. 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.080 And this led to Israel capturing a k a, stealing 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.840 the goal and heights from Syria. And the roots of 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.640 this war go all the way back to the forties, 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:36.040 and there are moment in history that led up to 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:40.520 this moment, but it was a huge turning point in 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.760 Middle Eastern history and the consequences of it are still 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.480 felt today across the region. And the outcome of this 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.159 war basically altered the map of the Middle East for 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:56.359 the foreseeable future, and it's further blocked this path to 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.199 any kind of potential piece between Israel and Palestine. Uh, 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:04.800 and it just redrew the landscape of this conflict and 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:10.479 expanded Israel's territorial claims and military dominance in the region. Um. 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.119 They gained a lot of territory during this war and 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:18.600 had the help of the U N behind them, So yeah, 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.880 it's it was not good for Arab countries so much 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:27.720 more to get into their But this war, essentially, when 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:32.240 we're talking about his Syrian history, changed everything. And I 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:36.240 mentioned earlier in the last episode that when the Bath 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.000 Party took power in sixty three, there was some more 0:24:40.080 --> 0:24:44.280 pershing of the Syrian military and Assad removed about four 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:47.480 hundred officers, which was the largest purge to date. But 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:51.920 this had left their military week and obviously did not 0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:57.640 help them in this June war. But uh, yeah, there's 0:24:57.720 --> 0:24:59.760 so much more there. I will try to get into that, 0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:04.240 lady or another time. But the Arab defeat in this 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.560 June war um led to Israel stealing the goal in 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.760 heights from Syria, and this provoked a furious quarrel among 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:16.440 Syria's leadership. The civilian leadership blamed military incompetence, and the 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:20.720 military responded by criticizing the civilian leadership, which was led 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:24.480 by Salashadid, who was the person that was ruling the country. 0:25:24.560 --> 0:25:27.040 He had the most power. At this point, several high 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:31.959 ranking party members demanded that haf Said resign and an 0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:34.879 attempt was made to vote him out of the regional command. 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.240 This motion was defeated by one vote, and this man 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:42.919 was Karim Gendi, who the anti Assad members. They were 0:25:42.960 --> 0:25:46.639 hoping that he would succeed Assad as Defense minister, but 0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:49.399 he became the deciding vote, and he said he did 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:53.240 so in a comradely gesture. Remember this name. He will 0:25:53.280 --> 0:26:01.560 come back. But yes, j D made it so Assad 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:05.680 wasn't voted out. During the end of the war, Hafuz 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:10.000 was approached by dissident Syrian military officers who out the government, 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:13.600 but at the time he actually refused because he believed 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:17.439 a coup during that time would have helped Israel, not Syria, 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:20.560 which is very interesting because he eventually took power by 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:22.920 a coup, but he refused our first because of the 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:26.359 timing being wrong. Again, I think this just demonstrates his 0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:34.439 unfortunately high intelligence for someone so bad. Anyway, as I mentioned, 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.200 this war was a turning point, and it was also 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.680 a turning point for as said, and the Boss Syria 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:45.240 movement in general. It soon began a power struggle with 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:49.600 Jadid for control over the country. Until then, Asad hadn't 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:53.560 really shown ambition for high office, and he aroused little 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.520 suspicion in others, no one really saw him as a threat. 0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:00.560 From the nineteen three Syrian coup to the war in 0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:04.720 sixty seven, Assad did not play a leading role in politics, 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:09.160 and he was usually overshadowed by his contemporaries. Patrick Seal 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:12.800 was a British journalist and an author who specialized in 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:15.639 the Middle East, and he wrote several books about the 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.760 Assad family and Syria. And he said the Hafs was 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:22.760 apparently content to be a solid member of the team 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:27.200 without the aspiration to become number one. He also interviewed 0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:29.280 haf Is at one point, so he had a lot 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:33.600 of good information this Patrick Seal, which I'll mentioned throughout. 0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:38.399 So although Jadid was slow to see Assad's threat, and 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:42.159 although Assad didn't appear like he wanted power from the outside. 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:46.240 Shortly after the war, Assad began developing a network in 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:50.879 the military and promoted friends and close relatives to high positions. 0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:55.560 Assad believed that Syria's defeat in the June War was 0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:59.640 Jadid's fault and that the accusations against himself were unjust. 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:03.879 By this time, Jadid had total control of the regional Command, 0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:09.359 whose members supported his policies, but Asad and Jaded began 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.680 to differ on policy. Asad believed that Jadid's policy of 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:18.200 a people's war and armed guerrilla strategy and class struggle 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:23.119 had failed Syria, undermining its position. Although Jaded continued to 0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:26.119 champion the concept of a people's war even after the 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:29.959 June War, Assad opposed it. He felt that the Palestinian 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:33.240 guerilla fighters had been given too much autonomy and their 0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:36.440 raiding of Israel had made the war worse for the 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:41.160 Arab's fighting. Jaded also had broken diplomatic relations with countries 0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:45.880 he deemed reactionary, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan's, and because 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.560 of this, Syria did not receive aid from other Arab countries. 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:55.080 While Jadid and his supporters prioritize socialism and the internal 0:28:55.200 --> 0:28:59.280 revolution in quotes. Assad wanted the leadership to focus on 0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:02.480 foreign polo see and the containment of Israel. The Bath 0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:06.200 Party was divided over several issues, such as how the 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:10.400 government could best use Syria's limited resources, the ideal relationship 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:13.680 between the party and the people, the organization of the party, 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.680 and whether the class struggle should end. The conflict between 0:29:17.720 --> 0:29:20.320 a Sad and Jadid became the talk of the army 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:24.240 and the party, with a quote duality of power noted 0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:27.760 between them by the fourth Regional Congress and the tenth 0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:31.880 National Congress in September and October sixty eight. Assad had 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.200 extended his grip on the army and Jadid still controlled 0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:39.080 the party at both congresses, as Sad was outvoted on 0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:43.200 most issues and his arguments were firmly rejected. The military's 0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:46.400 involvement in party politics was unpopular with the rank and file. 0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:51.200 As the gulf between Assad and Jadeed widened, the civilian 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.320 and military party bodies were forbidden to contact each other. 0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:58.800 Despite this, Assad was winning the race to accumulate power 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.240 munif that is, as who was ousted in the nineteen 0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:07.600 sixty six Syrian coup, noted that Jadid's fatal mistake was 0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:11.920 to attempt to govern the army through the party, because 0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:16.560 Syria will always have their government is the military essentially, 0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:19.719 is what I'm trying to say. Anyway, while Assad had 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:23.120 taken control of the armed forces through his position as 0:30:23.200 --> 0:30:27.360 Minister of Defense, Jaded still controlled the security and intelligence 0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:30.720 sectors through Abdukadima gen D, who was the head of 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:34.720 the National Security Bureau Gen D, who was a paranoid 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:38.680 cruel man. He was feared throughout Syria, especially later in 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:42.400 his life. In February of nineteen sixty nine, the Sad 0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:47.640 Jaded conflict erupted and violent clashes through their respective prodigies. 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:51.120 There wasn't a fact that said who is a Sad 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:55.200 brother and he was a high ranking military commander and 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:59.360 a Gen D. So agen D was the protege of 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:03.880 ja D and a Sad brother he thought was his protege. 0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:07.080 So to say, the reason for the violence was, in fact, 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:10.880 said suspicion that Agendi was planning an attempt on his 0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:16.440 brother Hapfus's life. The suspected assassin was interrogated and eventually 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:21.320 confessed under torture acting on this information. The fact argued 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:24.080 that unless agen D was removed from his post that 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:28.800 he and his brother were in danger. Okay, let's take 0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:35.520 a break, B R B. Listen to this and we're back. Wow. Okay, 0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:42.880 let's continue. From the twenty to February. In nineteen sixty nine, 0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:46.920 the A SAD Brothers initiated quote something just short of 0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:50.680 a coup. Under a SAD authority, tanks were moved into 0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:56.200 Damascus and the staffs of two party newspapers, the Bath 0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.640 and Athota, as well as radio station in Damascus and 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:04.680 Boat were replaced by A SAD loyalists the Takia and Tartus, 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:09.080 which are two alo white dominated cities. They saw fierce scuffles, 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:12.640 ending with the overthrow of Jade's supporters from local posts. 0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:17.560 Shortly afterwards, a wave of arrests and Gen D loyalists began. 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:21.240 On March two, after a telephone argument with the head 0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:25.400 of military intelligence, Al Duba, it is said that a 0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:30.040 Gen D committed suicide. When I mentioned this to my mom, 0:32:30.440 --> 0:32:33.200 she said, well, that's what they say, because originally I'm 0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:36.560 reading this being like, okay, history obviously, I actually remember 0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:40.000 that there's always someone that writes the history. Um, So 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:43.320 just pointing that out there because she put that little 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:46.440 nugget of information in my head. But as far as 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:51.960 we're concerned, in this summary, it is said that Jendi 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:56.840 committed suicide after his loyalists began to be arrested and 0:32:57.320 --> 0:33:01.640 they were just continuing violence between his side, and said 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:06.560 so this led to a Sad now being in control. However, 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:10.680 he hesitated to push his advantage. Jaded continued to rule 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:15.160 Syria and the regional command was unchanged. However, a SAD 0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:19.600 influenced Jaded to moderate his policies. Class struggle was muted, 0:33:20.040 --> 0:33:24.200 criticism of reactionary tendencies of other Arab states ceased, Some 0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:28.000 political prisoners were freed, A coalition of government was formed 0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:31.480 where the Bath Party was in control, and the Eastern Front, 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:34.960 supported by an Assad, was formed with Iraq and Jordan's. 0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:40.880 Jaded's isolationist policies were curtailed, and Syria re established diplomatic 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:43.960 relations with many of its foes, which is what a 0:33:44.040 --> 0:33:48.360 SAD wanted. And while Assad had been in de facto 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:52.800 command of Syrian policies since nineteen sixty nine, Jaded and 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:57.400 his supporters still held the trappings of power. After attending 0:33:57.680 --> 0:34:01.680 Jamad Obtnasair's funeral, in Egypt, he was the President of Egypt. 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:06.000 A Sad return to Syria for the emergency National Congress, 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:09.759 where a Sad was condemned by Jadid and his supporters, 0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:14.200 who still made out the majority of the party's delegates. However, 0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:17.560 before attending the congress, A Sad ordered his loyal troops 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:21.960 to surround the building housing the meeting. Again, this guy 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:25.080 thinks ahead, he's too smart. I hate him. He's dead 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:27.920 those or whatever, I still hate you. So, as he's 0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:31.240 being criticized, and as he's being condemned, he has troops 0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:34.640 surrounding this building. And so the criticism of a Sad's 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:38.600 political position continued, but it had a defeatist tone, with 0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:41.560 the majority of delegates believing that they have lost the battle. 0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:45.920 And even though a Sad was eventually stripped of his 0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:50.759 government post at the congress, these acts had little practical significance. 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:55.360 When the National Congress ended on November twelfth, nineteen seventy, 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:59.840 A Sad ordered loyalists to arrest leading members of Jadeed's government. 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:04.280 Although many mid level officials were offered posts in Syrian 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:09.040 embassies and abroad, Jadid refused, saying if I ever take power, 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.160 you will be dragged through the streets until you die. 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:17.160 A Sad imprisoned Jaded in Medsday prison until his death. 0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:24.560 Despite the intense clusterfuck of everything that preceded this surprise, 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:29.840 office's coup was actually calm and bloodless. When he eventually 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:33.080 had his coup to take power and succeeded, the only 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:36.799 evidence of change to the outside world was the disappearance 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:42.000 of newspapers, radio stations, and television stations. A temporary regional 0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:46.480 command was soon established, and on November sixteenth of nineteen 0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:50.319 seventy the new government published its first decree. So only 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:52.920 in a matter of days a lot can happen man. 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:57.120 According to Patrick Seal, a Sad's rule quote began with 0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:01.040 an immediate considerable advantage. The gun from it he displaced 0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:04.360 was so detested that any alternative came as a relief. 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:08.480 He first tried to establish national unity, which he felt 0:36:08.520 --> 0:36:11.800 had been lost under the leadership of a flock and Jadid. 0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:16.520 Assad differed from his predecessor at the outset, visiting local 0:36:16.640 --> 0:36:20.680 villages and hearing citizen complaints. The Syrian people felt that 0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:24.480 Assad's rise to power would maybe lead to change, and 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:27.840 although a Sad didn't democratize the country. He eased the 0:36:27.920 --> 0:36:31.920 government's repressive policies at the time. He cut prices for 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:36.480 basic food stuffs fift which won him support from ordinary citizens. 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:41.320 Jadeed's security services were purged and some military criminal investigative 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:44.840 powers were transferred to the police. In the confiscation of 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:49.280 goods under Jadid was reversed. Restrictions on travel and trade 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:52.640 with Lebanon were eased, and Assad encouraged growth in the 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:57.120 private sector. While Assad supported most of Jadeed's policies to 0:36:57.239 --> 0:37:00.360 begin with, he proved to be more pragmatic after he 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:03.680 came to power. Let's take a little break here, when 0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:07.640 we right back to wrap this little history lesson up, 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:11.520 and then you're free of me for the day. Okay, 0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:15.840 So we're back. Um. Before the break, we're talking about 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:19.920 as Sad coming into power, and how his policies differed 0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:24.240 from Jadid's, and how he made an effort to differentiate himself. However, 0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:28.719 most of Jade's supporters they faced a choice either continue 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:32.719 working for the bath government under a Sad or face repression. 0:37:33.480 --> 0:37:36.680 Assad had made it clear previously from the beginning that 0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:40.160 there would be no second chances. In his words, however, 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:43.719 in late nineteen seventy, he recruited support from the Bathist 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.040 Old Guard, who had supported a Flox leadership during the 0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:51.759 nineteen sixty three ninety six power struggle. An estimated two 0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:56.120 thousand former Baathists rejoined the party after hearing Asad's appeal 0:37:56.880 --> 0:38:00.360 at the eleventh National Congress, A Sad assured party members 0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:03.520 that his leadership with a radical change from that of Jadid, 0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:07.280 and he would implement a quote corrective movement to return 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:12.400 Syria to the true nationalist socialist line. A Sad turned 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:15.160 the presidency, which had been known simply as quote head 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:18.439 of state under Jadid, into a position of power. During 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:21.120 his rule, as the president became the main source of 0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:26.000 initiative in the government, His personality, values, strengths and weaknesses 0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:30.840 became decisive for his direction and stability. A Sad institutionalized 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:33.880 a system where he had the final say, which weakened 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:37.080 the powers of the collegial institutions of the party and state, 0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:43.239 as fidelity to the leader replaced ideological conviction. Later in 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:48.200 his presidency, corruption became widespread, the state sponsored cult of 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:54.040 personality became pervasive, and as Assad's authorities strengthened, he became 0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:58.719 the sole symbol of the government. And it sounds normal now, 0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:01.000 I guess when you think of like a dictator's face 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:03.640 being plastered over buildings and stuff. But it was very 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:06.000 much like that in Syria, and it still is as 0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:09.160 far as the Shire is concerned. But with Hafez, I mean, 0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:12.440 his image was plastered everywhere. You couldn't really escape it. 0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:16.279 He was the symbol of the Syrian government. And while 0:39:16.360 --> 0:39:19.640 Assad did not rule alone, he increasingly had the last word. 0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:22.640 None of the political elite would question a decision of his, 0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:26.000 and those who did were dismissed, removed from their positions, 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.279 and stripped of their power. When Assad came to power, 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:32.600 he increased the Allohite dominance of the security and intelligence 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:36.480 sectors to a near monopoly. The coercive framework was under 0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:40.280 his control, weakening the state and party. The leading figures 0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:43.120 of the Allo White dominated security system had family connections, 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:45.400 but the fact that I said, for example, controlled the 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:48.600 Struggle Company as his brother and then Asad's son in law, 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:51.600 Aidan Macluf was his second in command as commander of 0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:55.920 the Presidential Guard. Asad controlled the military through the Allowhites, 0:39:56.040 --> 0:39:59.640 and the Allowhites, with their high status, appointed and promoted 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:04.840 base on their kinship and favor rather than professional respect. Therefore, 0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:08.239 an Allo White elite emerged from these policies with a 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:11.680 sad and full control of the military and the Allo 0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:15.400 Whites holding all the power, which is very interesting if 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:17.560 you think back to the beginning of our first episode 0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:20.920 where I mentioned that the Allo Whites are a religious 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:24.440 minority and originally didn't have a lot of power in 0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:28.279 the government, and through half Assets coming into power, the 0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:32.799 Allo Whites are suddenly elite and in control, and it's 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:36.880 a huge flip from what it was decades prior. However, 0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:41.400 when Assade began pursuing a policy of economic liberalization, the 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:44.879 state bureaucracy began to use their positions for personal gain. 0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:49.000 The state gave implementation rights to QUOTE much of its 0:40:49.080 --> 0:40:53.560 development program to foreign firms and contractors, fueling a growing 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:59.000 linkage between the state and private capital. Basically, what ensued 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:03.080 was a huge bike in corruption. The channeling of external 0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:07.440 money through the state to private enterprises. Quote created growing 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:11.880 opportunities for state elites self enrichment through corrupt manipulation of 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:17.160 state market interchanges. Besides outright embezzlement, webs of shared interests 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:22.160 in commissions and kickbacks grew between high officials, politicians, and 0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:27.600 business interests. The Alla white military security establishment got the 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:30.920 greatest share of the money, obviously, and the bath Party 0:41:30.960 --> 0:41:33.759 and its leader is ruled a new class, defending their 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:37.040 interests instead of those of the peasants and workers who 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:41.320 they were supposed to represent. This, coupled with growing Sunny 0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:46.400 disillusionment with the regime's mixture of Sadism, rural and secretary 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:50.640 and favoritism, corruption and u inequalities, fueled the growth of 0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:54.600 the Islamic movement. Because of this, the Muslim Brotherhood of 0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:59.840 Syria became the vanguard of anti Bathist forces. The Brotherhood 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:03.200 had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its 0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:06.520 introduction to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties 0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:11.239 under the leadership of Mustafa A. Sabai. The Brotherhood had 0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:15.200 historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:18.919 to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties. After 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:23.480 Sabai's imprisonment and under Isam and Althotas leadership, the Brotherhood 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:28.680 developed into the ideological antithesis of Bathist rule. Because of 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:33.319 their organizational capabilities, the Muslim Brotherhood grew tenfold from nine 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:38.200 to nineteen seventy eight. The Islamic Uprising began in the 0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:41.400 mid to late nineteen seventies with attacks on prominent members 0:42:41.480 --> 0:42:44.880 of the bath A Lawai elite. As the conflict worsened, 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:48.880 a debate began in the party between hardliners represented by 0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:53.760 Rafa and bath liberals represented by Mahmoud and a Yubi. 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:57.719 The seventh Regional Congress in nineteen eighty was held in 0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:01.840 an atmosphere of crisis. Party leadership, with the exception of 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:06.200 Assad and his proteges, were criticized severely by the party delegates, 0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:10.120 who called for an anti corruption campaign, a new clean government, 0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:15.120 curtailing the powers of a military security apparatus, and political liberalization. 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:19.239 The Sunni middle class and the radical left, believing that 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:23.680 Baptist rule could be overthrown with an uprising, began collaborating 0:43:23.760 --> 0:43:27.040 with the Islamists. And I mean although they are called 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:30.239 the Islamists, obviously they do not represent the entirety of 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:35.479 Islam uh. Similar to Christian radical groups um hold onto 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:39.040 the name Christian, they don't represent the entirety of Christianity. 0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:42.680 YadA YadA, YadA, bad badh blah. And although the word 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:46.359 Islam is in the word Islamists. I wanted to draw 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:51.160 attention to the fact that Islamism is not a form 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:55.040 of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety. 0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:59.600 It is rather a political ideology that strives to derive 0:44:00.000 --> 0:44:07.360 ttimacy from Islam. So it's about political strategies that believe 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:10.920 in a revival or a return to authentic and quotes 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:15.120 Islamic practice in its totality. So it's a political ideology, 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:19.359 not necessarily a religion. Um. I just want you guys 0:44:19.440 --> 0:44:20.920 to be aware of that, because I think a lot 0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:24.880 of people don't understand what that means. Regardless believing they 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:27.759 had the upper hand in the conflict. Beginning in nineteen eighty, 0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:32.200 the Islamists began a series of campaigns against government installations 0:44:32.239 --> 0:44:37.120 in Aleppo. The attacks became urban guerrilla warfare. The government 0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:40.160 began to lose control in the city. Those affected by 0:44:40.520 --> 0:44:44.520 Bathist repression began to rally behind the insurgents. The bath 0:44:44.600 --> 0:44:50.399 Party co founder Salahadin supported the uprising, rallying the old 0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:54.880 anti military Bathist together. The increasing threat to the government's 0:44:54.960 --> 0:45:00.880 survival strengthened the herdliners, who favored repression over concessions. Security 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:04.440 forces began to purge all state party and social institutions 0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:07.279 in Syria and were sent to the northern provinces to 0:45:07.440 --> 0:45:11.880 quell the uprising. When this failed, hardliners began accusing the 0:45:11.960 --> 0:45:15.560 United States of fomenting and provoking the uprising and called 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:20.320 for the reinstatement of quote revolutionary vigilance. After a failed 0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:23.000 attempt on a Sad's life in June of nineteen eighty, 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:26.840 the government began responding to the uprising with state terrorism 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.280 under a fat said. The Islamic prisoners at the Tadmore 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:35.320 Prison were massacred. Membership in the Muslim Brotherhood became a 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.440 capital offense, and the government sent a death squad to 0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:42.879 kill bad and others former wife. The military court began 0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:49.239 condemning captured militants, which sometimes degenerated into indiscriminate killings. Little 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:53.080 care was taken to distinguish Muslim Brotherhood hardliners from their 0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:58.240 passive supporters, and violence was met with violence. So essentially, 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:03.640 this just led the Asad regime too murder a bunch 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:08.399 of people, innocent, guilty all of the above. So yeah. 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:12.040 One of the many instances where the Assad regime was 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:17.480 extremely violent and engaged in horrific state terrorism. So we're 0:46:17.760 --> 0:46:20.359 I'm wrapping up the end of this one, and um, 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:23.080 there's going to be a bit of crossover over this 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:26.640 next event in the following episode. But the final most 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:30.279 atrocious violence conducted by the Syrian government during this time 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:35.560 was the Hamma massacre, which took place in February, when 0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:40.960 the government crushed the uprising. Helicopter, gunships, bulldozers, and artillery 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:45.960 bombardment raised the city, killing thousands of people. The bath 0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:50.120 government withstood the uprising, and it made Syria more totalitarian 0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:54.719 than ever before, strengthening Assad's position as the undisputed leader 0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:58.279 of Syria. That is where I'm going to wrap up 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:02.120 for the day. I did want to I don't know, 0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:06.120 maybe just like set the tone for what hoffs is 0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:09.640 A rule was like. I talked to my mom a 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:12.439 bit about this when I was preparing to record these, 0:47:13.280 --> 0:47:15.239 and she reminded me of a bunch of things that 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:18.160 I had forgotten about. One was that I was in 0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:22.560 Syria when Hoffas was president when I was younger, and 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:28.080 I remember everyone being terrified to speak any kind of 0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:31.920 negative thing or even anything to each other. No one 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:35.360 would dare speak a word on the phone definitely not 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:38.239 allowed to each other. There were all these whispers of 0:47:38.480 --> 0:47:41.400 the walls could hear you. No one trusted anybody. My 0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:44.080 mother described it as a culture of fear, and it 0:47:45.200 --> 0:47:48.560 was that's how Hoffus ruled. It was through fear, through 0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:52.960 like utter terror. And I just had forgotten a bunch 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:56.120 of details about what I remember growing up, and like 0:47:56.800 --> 0:47:59.480 the phone being this, like you just assume it was 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:02.279 always app you assume anyone could always hear you. You 0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:04.399 can't trust anybody because you don't know what someone will 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:07.279 do with the information. And there was a bit more 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.600 that she mentioned that I wanted to just highlight that 0:48:10.680 --> 0:48:13.080 I didn't know where to incorporate in that timeline. But 0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:18.239 when the Iran Iraq war happened, it was between eight 0:48:18.400 --> 0:48:22.680 and eight um Haffas sided with Iran. So after this 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:27.120 uh and during everything was about supporting Iran, So all 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:30.560 Syrian factories, all the food, it was all dedicated to 0:48:30.640 --> 0:48:34.120 war efforts to support Iran. My older sister at the 0:48:34.200 --> 0:48:37.480 time was a really picky eater, and apparently one of 0:48:37.520 --> 0:48:40.439 the only things she ate were bananas, and my mom 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:44.400 remembers that she couldn't find even a banana anywhere, like 0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:47.720 everything was hard to come by. It was really desperate 0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:52.400 times even after the war ended, and every election, in 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:57.440 quotes was fraudulent. It was a joke. My grandmother Um 0:48:58.280 --> 0:49:01.319 worked as a school teacher in Syria. You and um, 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:05.440 teachers are a civic position there really, like most positions 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:09.759 are governmental positions. And my grandma during these elections would 0:49:10.320 --> 0:49:14.440 throw out the nose and only include the yes is 0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:17.719 because the only option was yes or no if he 0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:20.880 wanted to continuef as his rule or not, those are 0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:24.320 the only two options. And she told us that the 0:49:24.440 --> 0:49:27.000 nose were discarded immediately and the only ones that were 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.880 kept were the yesses. And eventually there was an election 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:33.800 that determined that Haffas and his family would be in 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:39.200 power forever and as it was a phrase that used, 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:43.120 and essentially this means until death or forever, you will 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:45.600 be in power. It does have his name in their 0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:48.080 but it implies his whole family. So it's just they 0:49:48.160 --> 0:49:51.120 gave him power forever. That is literally what that means. 0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:56.000 And yeah, I think, um, there's so much more to 0:49:57.200 --> 0:49:59.200 talk about here, and I would love for my mom 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:02.320 to just give me more information about this that I 0:50:02.360 --> 0:50:05.360 can share eventually. There's just so much. And this episode 0:50:05.360 --> 0:50:08.480 is already getting kind of long, so I'm gonna wrap 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:10.919 it up here. In the next episode, we'll be talking 0:50:11.000 --> 0:50:14.160 about but Shad and how he became the dictator of 0:50:14.280 --> 0:50:17.000 Syria and how he was even meant to be the 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:21.000 president of Syria, and yeah, a lot of interesting history 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:24.520 that leads to some topical information that I think is important. 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:45.319 So see you there if you want to. But wow, 0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:49.280 it's me again. Uh, this is Sharia. This is also 0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:53.279 it could happen here. We've been talking about Syria for 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:57.360 the last few episodes and we're going to continue and 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:00.320 I'm just gonna jump right in because there's a lot Okay, 0:51:00.880 --> 0:51:04.160 So this is a continuation about Syria and the terrible 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:08.320 family that controls it, the assets. As I mentioned in 0:51:08.400 --> 0:51:12.440 the previous episodes, Uh, the Assads have destroyed Syria and 0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:14.960 the death toll that they are responsible for is literally 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:18.360 incalculable by the UN but it's said to be nearing 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:22.759 half a million people, which is a lot of people. So. 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:27.120 Sam Dagger is an American Lebanese journalist and author who 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:29.239 has lived and worked in the Middle East for more 0:51:29.280 --> 0:51:32.120 than sixteen years. He was based in Damascus in the 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:34.839 early years of the current war before the government kicked 0:51:34.920 --> 0:51:38.600 him out in but he used his access to write 0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:42.080 about the inside story of the Sad family. He has 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.800 a book titled A sad Or We Burned the Country, 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:48.000 which I admittedly have not read. It's like five hundre pages, 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:50.360 but I did pull a lot of info from the 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:53.400 book and interviews that he's done about it, mostly in 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.000 regards to the economic stuff that we'll get into later, 0:51:56.840 --> 0:51:59.800 but it was very helpful resource. When Dagger was in Syria, 0:51:59.880 --> 0:52:02.760 he saw this phrase A sad Or reburned the country, 0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:05.480 which is the title of his book. All over the 0:52:05.560 --> 0:52:07.960 towns and neighborhoods that had been taken over by the 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:12.480 regime graffiti it on walls, probably by loyalists or government 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:16.320 militias or whatever, or as people that love him barf. 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:19.279 And in this case they're talking about the shadow I said, 0:52:19.560 --> 0:52:21.560 who is the son of the person we were talking 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:26.400 about previously said, but it essentially also includes the entire family. 0:52:27.080 --> 0:52:31.440 They are in power forever, and the Asad regime routinely 0:52:31.560 --> 0:52:36.279 takes over deserted, destroyed areas, and these government militias come 0:52:36.320 --> 0:52:38.960 in and loot the area until it's nothing but rubble 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:42.840 littered by things that are left behind as people are fleeing, 0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:46.600 and things that these loyalists find useless, like teddy bears 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:50.839 and personal items that actually tell a really devastating story 0:52:50.920 --> 0:52:54.760 about the lives that used to occupy that space. Because 0:52:54.920 --> 0:53:00.080 these loyalists, these sad obsessed freaks, they take everything that 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:03.160 they deem worth looting, even things like tiles and doors, 0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:08.320 So you're left with these ghost towns. Literally figuratively, the 0:53:08.440 --> 0:53:11.680 phrase is sad or reburned the country means exactly what 0:53:11.800 --> 0:53:14.680 it says. It means that the Shadow and his family 0:53:14.840 --> 0:53:18.120 will remain in power or else they will burn the 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:21.000 country to the ground and burn everyone who opposes the 0:53:21.040 --> 0:53:25.000 Assad regime along with it. And although the shadowst has 0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:27.680 now been in power for twenty two years, he was 0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:31.040 actually never meant to be in power. His father had 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:34.960 appointed himself as president in ninety one after overthrowing the 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:39.120 prior government through military coup. The Shadow s has succeeded 0:53:39.200 --> 0:53:41.840 his father in two thousand after his father's death, and 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:44.959 it continued their famili's hold on Syria and his people. 0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:49.719 Was a very significant year. Not only was it the 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:52.320 year I was born and that's why, but Also, the 0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:56.120 Soviet Union collapsed and the Berlin Wall fell and dictatorships 0:53:56.160 --> 0:53:59.200 were crumbling. The Soviet Union was seen as the main 0:53:59.280 --> 0:54:04.000 supporter or guardian of the Sad regime, but in it 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:07.080 didn't exist anymore. So the a Sad regime was suddenly 0:54:07.160 --> 0:54:09.960 in trouble. Its priority was to present an image of 0:54:10.080 --> 0:54:13.560 reform and repackaged itself so half as Said, could hand 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:17.279 down the power to his eldest son, Bassett said Um 0:54:17.600 --> 0:54:20.319 and Bassett was an army officer who was essentially brought 0:54:20.440 --> 0:54:23.879 up to eventually fill this role taking over for his father, 0:54:24.360 --> 0:54:27.160 and his military background fit the image of this traditional 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:30.120 leader of the Arab world because so many of these 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:33.320 leaders took over by military coup or had a background 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.680 of military. But before we get into all of that, 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:39.080 let's go back in time a little bit and talk 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:42.680 about what went down. So a sort of succession crisis 0:54:42.840 --> 0:54:47.239 was triggered in November three when haf Said, a diabetic, 0:54:47.440 --> 0:54:51.160 had a heart attack on November after visiting his brother 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:54.520 in a hospital. The fact that Said reportedly announced his 0:54:54.600 --> 0:54:57.799 candidacy for president, he did not believe that his brother 0:54:57.880 --> 0:55:00.200 would be able to continue ruling the country after to this, 0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:03.560 when he did not receive support from Assad's inner circle. 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:07.480 He made lavish promises to win them over, but apparently 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:10.839 some believe that a Fact had been as first choice 0:55:10.840 --> 0:55:13.319 of successor, and it was an idea that some people 0:55:13.360 --> 0:55:16.359 say he broached as early as nineteen eighty. The fact 0:55:16.400 --> 0:55:18.800 that I said was the younger brother of Haffaz and 0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:21.680 he served as vice president. Many believe him to be 0:55:21.840 --> 0:55:27.000 the commanding officer responsible for the Hamma massacre of two um. 0:55:27.080 --> 0:55:29.640 I briefly mentioned this in the previous episode at the end. 0:55:30.120 --> 0:55:33.680 It was a horrific massacre, and I think it especially 0:55:34.200 --> 0:55:38.080 is near to me because Hamma is my mother's hometown 0:55:38.360 --> 0:55:41.319 and it's probably my favorite place in the world. They 0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:43.680 have these water wheels that are like, I don't know, 0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:46.680 they've mesmerized me. But that's another story entirely. We can 0:55:46.920 --> 0:55:49.879 be all sappy at another time. But I did want 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:52.040 to break up this massacre because most people have no 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:56.400 idea that it even happened. In February two as commander 0:55:56.480 --> 0:55:59.480 of the defense companies that in fact allegedly commanded the 0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:02.520 forces that put down a Muslim brotherhood revolt in the 0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:06.160 central city of Hamma by instructing his forces to shell 0:56:06.280 --> 0:56:10.440 the city with rockets, and this killed thousands of its inhabitants. 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:15.600 Reports range from between five thousand and forty thousand, but 0:56:15.719 --> 0:56:19.160 the most common suggestion is around fifteen to twenty thousand, 0:56:19.760 --> 0:56:23.600 still a ship ton of people, and this became known 0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:27.560 as the Hamma Massacre. A declassified document from the Defense 0:56:27.640 --> 0:56:31.480 Intelligence Agency estimates the total number of casualties to be 0:56:31.520 --> 0:56:37.320 approximately two thousand. However, US journalist Thomas Friedman claims in 0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:41.080 his book From Beyroute to Jerusalem that I Fat later 0:56:41.239 --> 0:56:44.880 said the total number of victims was thirty eight thousand people. 0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:49.080 Thirty eight thousand people. The fact also played a key 0:56:49.239 --> 0:56:52.920 role in his brother Hoppus's overthrow of saw Shadid and 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:58.440 the seizure of power. This change in executive power is 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:02.759 dug by some loyalists. At the Corrective Revolution, the Fat 0:57:02.920 --> 0:57:07.000 was allowed to form his own paramilitary group, the Defense Companies, 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:11.000 in nine and this soon transformed into a powerful and 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:14.600 regular military force, trained and armed by the Soviet Union. 0:57:15.440 --> 0:57:18.200 He was a qualified paratrooper and he ran the elite 0:57:18.240 --> 0:57:21.920 internal security Forces and the Defense Companies in the seventies 0:57:21.960 --> 0:57:25.720 and early eighties, but things changed when Haffas severed a 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:29.040 heart attack in late eighty three. As he was recovering, 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:32.120 Haffa's established a six member committee to run the country, 0:57:32.440 --> 0:57:36.360 but a fact was not included. The council consisted entirely 0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:39.760 of close Sunni Muslim loyalists to Haffa's, who were mostly 0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:44.760 lightweights in the military security establishment. This caused unease in 0:57:44.880 --> 0:57:48.360 that that we dominated officer corps, and several high ranking 0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:52.160 officers began rallying behind your Fat while others remained loyal 0:57:52.320 --> 0:57:56.280 to Haffice's instructions. In March of eighty four, Fat's troops, 0:57:56.440 --> 0:57:59.960 now numbering more than fifty five thousand, with tanks and artillery, 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:04.720 ary aircraft and helicopters, they began a certain control over Damascus. 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:08.760 A squadron of Defrats tanks took position at the central 0:58:08.840 --> 0:58:13.560 roundabout of Cafu Souse in Mount Glassioun, overlooking the city, 0:58:14.200 --> 0:58:17.200 setting up checkpoints and roadblocks, putting up posters of him 0:58:17.280 --> 0:58:21.640 in state buildings, disarming regular troops, and arbitrarily arresting soldiers 0:58:22.000 --> 0:58:25.720 of the regular army, Occupying and commandeering police stations and 0:58:25.840 --> 0:58:30.720 intelligence building. Occupying state buildings, the defense companies rapidly outnumbered 0:58:30.760 --> 0:58:33.960 and took control over both the Special Forces and the 0:58:34.120 --> 0:58:38.320 Republican Guard. Although Damascus was divided between two armies and 0:58:38.400 --> 0:58:40.720 seemed to be on the brink of war, the Fact 0:58:40.800 --> 0:58:43.800 did not move. Papus was then informed that de Fact 0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:46.840 was heading to Damascus, and he left his headquarters to 0:58:46.960 --> 0:58:51.200 meet his brother. British journalist Patrick Seal reports an intimate 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:55.000 moment between these two brothers. He writes, at a Fact's 0:58:55.040 --> 0:58:57.800 home and the brothers were at last face to face. 0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:01.760 You want to overthrow the regime, Hafas asked, here I am, 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:05.200 I am the regime. For an hour they stormed at 0:59:05.240 --> 0:59:07.840 each other, but in his role of elder brother and 0:59:07.960 --> 0:59:10.760 with his mother in the house, Hafas could not fail 0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:13.880 to win the contest, Deferring to him at last, as 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:16.760 he had so often during their youths. The Fact chose 0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:21.040 to accept, although with some inward skepticism, halfics Is pledged 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:23.680 that the trust between them would be restored and would 0:59:23.680 --> 0:59:26.640 be the basis of their future work together. There was 0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:30.640 a clear division and tensions between forces loyal to Haffa's, 0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:34.840 namely the Third Armored Division, the Republican Guard, the various 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:39.240 intelligence services, the National Police and the Special forces. The 0:59:39.320 --> 0:59:43.000 defense companies were so loyal to defact. In the middle 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:45.560 of eighty four, Haffas had returned from his sick bed 0:59:45.680 --> 0:59:49.560 and assumed full control, at which point most officers rallied 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:52.400 around him. At first, it seemed like the Fact was 0:59:52.440 --> 0:59:54.600 going to be put on trial. He even faced a 0:59:54.720 --> 0:59:58.400 questioning that was broadcast on television. However, it is believed 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:02.160 the Hoffice's daughter Bushta, actually saved her uncle by convincing 1:00:02.240 --> 1:00:05.760 her father that it would disgrace the family it might 1:00:05.840 --> 1:00:08.800 cost tensions not only within the Assad family, but within 1:00:08.920 --> 1:00:12.720 the Mahlu family as well. Both Haffas and Nafat had 1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.240 married women from the Mahu family, and they also just 1:00:16.320 --> 1:00:18.760 happened to be the second most prevalent Dilo white family 1:00:19.080 --> 1:00:22.280 dominating the leadership of the security services behind the Assads, 1:00:23.160 --> 1:00:25.640 and what first seemed like a compromise, the Fact was 1:00:25.720 --> 1:00:29.640 made vice president with responsibility for security affairs, but this 1:00:29.800 --> 1:00:33.280 proved to be simply a fancy title, and post command 1:00:33.360 --> 1:00:36.120 of the defense companies was trimmed down to an armored 1:00:36.200 --> 1:00:39.760 division size and was transferred to another officer, and the 1:00:39.960 --> 1:00:43.920 entire unit was ultimately disbanded and absorbed into other units. 1:00:44.600 --> 1:00:47.000 The Fat was then sent to the Soviet Union in 1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:50.840 an open ending working visit. His closest supporters and others 1:00:50.880 --> 1:00:53.360 who had failed to prove their loyalty to Haffa's were 1:00:53.400 --> 1:00:55.600 purged from the army and bath Party in the years 1:00:55.640 --> 1:00:59.600 that followed. Upon his departure, de Fat acquired three d 1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:03.440 million dollars of public money, including a hundred million Libyan money, 1:01:03.880 --> 1:01:06.840 on a loan in two thousand fifteen. He claimed that 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:10.920 the money was a gift from Crown Prince Albila Saudi Arabia, 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:15.680 and although the fact returned to Syria for his mother's 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:19.520 funeral in nine two and for some time lived in Syria, 1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:23.160 he was thereafter confined to exile in France and Spain. 1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:27.440 He nominally retained the post of Vice President until February 1:01:27.480 --> 1:01:30.680 of night, at which point he was stripped of this title. 1:01:31.280 --> 1:01:34.160 He had retained a large business empire both in Syria 1:01:34.240 --> 1:01:39.400 and abroad, partly through the Sun sum However, the nine Crackdown, 1:01:39.600 --> 1:01:42.920 involving armed clashes in the Takia, destroyed much of his 1:01:43.000 --> 1:01:46.440 remaining network. In Syria, large numbers of the Fat supporters 1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:49.680 were arrested. This was seen as tied to the issue 1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:53.240 of succession, with our Fat having begun to position himself 1:01:53.360 --> 1:01:56.680 to succeed the ailing Cofaz, who in his turn sought 1:01:56.760 --> 1:02:00.880 to eliminate all potential competition for his designating successor, his 1:02:01.040 --> 1:02:05.600 son Bashad. As in France, the Fat who is still alive, 1:02:06.080 --> 1:02:09.640 has loudly protested against the succession of Bashad to the 1:02:09.720 --> 1:02:13.439 post of president, claiming that he himself embodies the only 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:19.560 constitutional legality as previous vice president, alleging his dismissal as unconstitutional. 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:22.920 He has made threatening remarks about planning to return to 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:25.880 Syria at a time of his choosing to assume his 1:02:26.000 --> 1:02:29.200 responsibilities and fulfill the will of the people, and that 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:32.960 while he will rule benevolently and democratically, he will do 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:35.560 so with the power of the people and the army 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:39.680 behind him. Anyway, de fats coup attempt to weaken the 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:43.880 institutionalized power structure on which Hafez based his rule. Instead 1:02:43.880 --> 1:02:46.240 of changing his policy, a sad try to protect his 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:49.520 power by honing his governmental model. He then gave a 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:53.440 larger role to Bassid, his oldest son, who was subsequently 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:55.919 rumored to be his father's plan successor at the time, 1:02:56.360 --> 1:02:59.920 and this kindled jealousy within the government at a nineteen 1:03:00.040 --> 1:03:02.640 ninety four military meeting, the chief of staff said that 1:03:02.760 --> 1:03:06.400 since Assad wanted to normalize relations with Israel, the Syrian 1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:09.360 military had to withdraw its troops from the Goal and Heights. 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:13.960 Ali Haidad replied angrily, we have become nonentities. We were 1:03:14.000 --> 1:03:17.200 not even consulted. When he heard about his outburst, a 1:03:17.280 --> 1:03:20.640 Sad replaced him as commander of special Forces with the 1:03:20.680 --> 1:03:24.800 Ala White Major General Ali Habib had that also reportedly 1:03:24.880 --> 1:03:29.520 opposed dynastic succession, keeping his views secret until after Bassil's 1:03:29.520 --> 1:03:32.400 death in ninety four, and when a Sad chose but 1:03:32.480 --> 1:03:36.040 shadow said to succeed him, he then openly criticized as 1:03:36.080 --> 1:03:40.640 sad succession plans. Okay, before we go back to let's 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:44.680 take a quick break b rb Okay, so back to nine. 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:48.760 The regime had done everything in preparation for bast Sale 1:03:48.800 --> 1:03:54.200 to take power. However, on January one, while Bastard was 1:03:54.320 --> 1:03:58.240 driving his Mercedes at a high speed, and author Paul 1:03:58.360 --> 1:04:01.720 Thorou reports that basket the way, driving a hundred and 1:04:01.760 --> 1:04:04.720 fifty miles per hour. He was driving through dense fog 1:04:04.800 --> 1:04:08.360 to Damascus International Airport for a flight to Frankfurt, Germany. 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:11.080 He was on his way to a ski vacation in 1:04:11.160 --> 1:04:13.720 the Alps in the early hours of the morning, and 1:04:14.200 --> 1:04:16.920 it was then the Bassett collided with a barrier and 1:04:17.320 --> 1:04:21.400 not wearing a seatbelt, he died instantly. After his tragic death, 1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:24.120 the regime made sure to elevate the assad name. In 1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:28.480 the process, shops, schools and public offices and Syria closed 1:04:28.560 --> 1:04:31.600 and the sale of alcohol was suspended. In respect, he 1:04:31.760 --> 1:04:34.840 was elevated by the state into the martyr of the country, 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:37.840 the martyr of the nation and the symbol for its youth. 1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:41.880 A great number of squares and streets were named after him, 1:04:42.320 --> 1:04:46.040 the new international swimming complex, various hospitals, sporting clubs, and 1:04:46.080 --> 1:04:49.360 a military academy. The international airport in the tack Yet 1:04:49.480 --> 1:04:53.640 was named after him Basset Lead International Airport. His statue 1:04:53.720 --> 1:04:56.600 was found in several Syrian cities, and even after his death, 1:04:56.880 --> 1:05:00.520 he's often pictured on billboards with his father and his brother. 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:04.760 He also has an equestrian statute in Aleppo. Even in 1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:08.560 November of twenty a museum dedicated to him was no 1:05:08.800 --> 1:05:13.120 gy rated at the Attackia Sports City. Bassas untimely death 1:05:13.320 --> 1:05:17.160 obviously had unforeseen consequences. It led to his lesser known 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:20.600 brother Bashad to assume the mantle of president in waiting. 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:24.680 At the time, he was content undertaking post graduate training 1:05:24.720 --> 1:05:28.200 and ophthalmology in London. Bashad was seen as the shy, 1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:31.280 unassuming younger brother, and for his whole life up to 1:05:31.360 --> 1:05:33.960 this point he was overshadowed by his father and its 1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:38.320 older brother Bassett. But then suddenly he was fast tracked 1:05:38.560 --> 1:05:41.160 on the path to succession. He was rushed to the 1:05:41.240 --> 1:05:44.959 military and the constitution changed so that the minimum age 1:05:45.040 --> 1:05:48.320 required of the president was not forty but thirty four, 1:05:48.720 --> 1:05:52.600 exactly Bashadow's age at the time. But Shadow became president 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:54.959 following the death of his father, who died on June 1:05:55.000 --> 1:05:58.360 tenth of two thousand. Bast sales posters and his name 1:05:58.480 --> 1:06:02.040 were also used to secure a smooth transition. After half 1:06:02.440 --> 1:06:06.720 said introduced the slogan Bastend the example, Bashad the Future. 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:10.920 His quote unquote election was a yes or no referendum, 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:14.480 a popular vote on whether the Syrian people wanted him 1:06:14.520 --> 1:06:17.160 as their president, and so surprised he won with at 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:21.480 least of the vote. So after the vote, Bashad is 1:06:21.560 --> 1:06:24.560 sworn in and he's presented to his people as the savior, 1:06:24.720 --> 1:06:26.640 as the one who's going to open up Syria and 1:06:26.760 --> 1:06:30.400 reform the system. Dr Basha, a son referred to him, 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:33.360 was seen as the leader of the younger generation of Syria, 1:06:33.560 --> 1:06:37.280 the standard bearer of modernization. But the regime was and 1:06:37.480 --> 1:06:40.680 stayed very cynical and was not at all sincere about 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:44.720 these reforms. However, Bashad performed his role and acted the part, 1:06:45.040 --> 1:06:47.840 cracking down on corruption, reaching out to all sectors of 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:51.280 Syrian society. Back in two thousands, some people were even 1:06:51.320 --> 1:06:55.480 calling this the Damascus Spring, and the Syrian people were 1:06:55.560 --> 1:06:59.160 seeing things change, unaware that, as sam Docker puts it, 1:06:59.360 --> 1:07:03.080 that Bashad is being mentored and tutored by people who 1:07:03.240 --> 1:07:06.320 have been empowered by his father to kill, torture, and 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:09.360 disappear people because they had dared to speak out against 1:07:09.440 --> 1:07:13.600 the regime. These hard liners were grooming him and telling him, yes, 1:07:14.000 --> 1:07:16.560 you can present yourself as a softer version of your father, 1:07:17.080 --> 1:07:19.600 but no, then order to hang on to power, you 1:07:19.720 --> 1:07:22.640 have to be as ruthless as your father, if not more. 1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:26.680 Western governments had the impression that Bashad was someone they 1:07:26.680 --> 1:07:30.120 could do business with. He presented a modern, open minded 1:07:30.200 --> 1:07:33.040 image and even hosted notable positions from around the world 1:07:33.120 --> 1:07:36.440 in Damascus. Including Brad Pitt and Angeley and Jolie. The 1:07:36.600 --> 1:07:39.520 US and Europe accepted this perception because they believed that 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:41.760 it was in their best interest to do so, and 1:07:41.880 --> 1:07:44.840 to ensure that this image of Syrian leadership was being 1:07:44.920 --> 1:07:49.200 presented to the world. The regime was strategic having Bashad 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:51.440 show that he was different from his father, even in 1:07:51.520 --> 1:07:54.960 the choice of who he married. In December of two 1:07:55.000 --> 1:07:58.600 thousand a, Sad married Esma as a British citizen of 1:07:58.720 --> 1:08:02.200 Syrian origin from a in London. She was much different 1:08:02.240 --> 1:08:05.560 than serious previous first lady. She wasn't from the religious 1:08:05.600 --> 1:08:08.560 sect that the Assads belonged to, the Allo Whites, who 1:08:08.600 --> 1:08:11.880 are still a religious minority. She is actually of a 1:08:11.960 --> 1:08:15.720 Sunni majority. Basha decided to marry someone who has lived 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:19.200 all her life abroad, as a British citizen, who was 1:08:19.640 --> 1:08:22.880 modern and assertive and had a career in investment banking 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:26.080 and talked about going to Harvard for business school. She 1:08:26.200 --> 1:08:30.479 was even featured in Vogue Come on barf. In an 1:08:30.520 --> 1:08:34.000 interview in two thousand five, Esma said, quote, the issue 1:08:34.080 --> 1:08:36.800 here is not how Muslim women decide to dress. The 1:08:36.880 --> 1:08:40.200 issue is what Muslim women are doing in their society today, 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:42.439 it doesn't matter how we dress or what we look like. 1:08:43.200 --> 1:08:46.400 So hearing this and other things, Western leaders are looking 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:49.880 at this modern educated couple, believing they are different and 1:08:49.960 --> 1:08:52.559 more importantly, that they are more suitable to their interests. 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:56.120 In the post nine eleven era, the United States was 1:08:56.200 --> 1:08:59.040 looking for allies in the so called War on Terror 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:03.280 and said, as Sam Dagger stated in an interview quote, 1:09:03.479 --> 1:09:06.360 shared intelligence with the Americans and even tortured people on 1:09:06.439 --> 1:09:09.200 behalf of the Americans. So the West had a vested 1:09:09.240 --> 1:09:13.040 interest to justify its engagement and cooperation with Bashad by 1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:16.880 saying he's a reformer. Opening up series economy was a 1:09:16.920 --> 1:09:19.599 big part of projecting an image of a reformed Syria. 1:09:20.280 --> 1:09:24.120 Before Basha took power, Serious economy was a centrally planned 1:09:24.160 --> 1:09:27.479 economy also known as a command economy, which is an 1:09:27.520 --> 1:09:31.479 economic system where a government body makes economic decisions based 1:09:31.520 --> 1:09:35.200 on the production and distribution of goods. Serious economy was 1:09:35.320 --> 1:09:38.400 in the mold of the Soviet Union's economy, but when 1:09:38.439 --> 1:09:42.040 Basha took over, the economy began to change drastically. In 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:44.160 the early two thousand's, a t m s were seen 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:46.559 in Syria for the very first time and cell phone 1:09:46.600 --> 1:09:50.120 companies were established, and while the economy may have opened up, 1:09:50.280 --> 1:09:53.639 everything was still in control of the regime. I wanted 1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:55.960 to bring up something that my mom mentioned about the 1:09:56.040 --> 1:09:59.719 differences between Basha and Hafs and how they genuinely believed 1:10:00.400 --> 1:10:03.960 he was going to bring modern change. He was doing 1:10:04.000 --> 1:10:07.040 it all right on paper, but when Hoffas was in 1:10:07.120 --> 1:10:10.519 power in the early eighties or my mom was talking 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:14.360 about her experience in the late eighties early nineties, apparently 1:10:14.400 --> 1:10:18.000 there were at least three Secret Service stations that monitored 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:23.360 everyone in every neighborhood, three per neighborhood. And because my 1:10:23.479 --> 1:10:25.920 mom was going back and forth from America to Syria 1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:28.720 my father as well, they would send for my mom. 1:10:29.320 --> 1:10:33.080 They would request that she go to the Secret Service, 1:10:33.640 --> 1:10:36.439 and she was asked there about the Syrians. She knew 1:10:36.479 --> 1:10:38.599 in the States, what they were doing, what they did, 1:10:38.720 --> 1:10:41.360 who went to the mosque. She had to write everything 1:10:41.439 --> 1:10:44.439 she did in detail. She did this every time she 1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:46.760 visited Syria, and my father went through the same thing. 1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:49.760 At one instant, she was saying that one time they 1:10:49.880 --> 1:10:53.639 left her alone in her room for three hours. Because 1:10:53.680 --> 1:10:56.040 they do this to purposely humiliate you. They make you 1:10:56.120 --> 1:10:59.559 anxious to make you scared. And this was just something 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:03.160 of normal procedure that a lot of Syrians experienced, just 1:11:04.400 --> 1:11:09.360 constant terror. As I mentioned, it's a culture of fear, 1:11:09.439 --> 1:11:11.479 and this is one of the ways that they promoted that. 1:11:12.200 --> 1:11:15.880 But after Bashar took power, this changed. These places were 1:11:15.920 --> 1:11:18.680 taken down and it just genuinely looked like Bashad was 1:11:18.720 --> 1:11:21.519 an improvement. He studied in the West to open up 1:11:21.520 --> 1:11:26.000 the internet, because previously the internet was only allowed for news, 1:11:26.400 --> 1:11:31.439 and it just seemed promising. And before we get into 1:11:31.520 --> 1:11:36.760 anything further, let's take another break, b r B. We're back. 1:11:37.439 --> 1:11:40.800 In Sam Dagger's book assad Or Reburned the Country, he 1:11:40.960 --> 1:11:45.559 describes how tightly controlled this new Syrian economy is. He writes, 1:11:46.240 --> 1:11:50.600 ten families run Syria and control everything. He continues to 1:11:50.680 --> 1:11:53.960 describe how this early period in Bashar's rule also brought 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:59.040 the rise of another figures cousin. He is related to 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:01.320 the assad family through his mother, who was the sister 1:12:01.439 --> 1:12:06.400 of Anissa mahluf Tops wife, so she's Bashar's aunt. Rabbi 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:10.600 Mahaluf's personal wealth accumulated abroad was estimated to be in 1:12:10.680 --> 1:12:15.160 the excess of ten billion. In his father Mohammed Mahlouf 1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:18.640 played the role of the regime's financier, basically haf as 1:12:18.720 --> 1:12:22.840 his money man. As Bashad said, became President Mahluf's son 1:12:23.000 --> 1:12:28.439 Rami inherited this business empire and became this new tycoon 1:12:28.520 --> 1:12:31.040 in Syria. He was the person who made sure that 1:12:31.120 --> 1:12:34.320 any economic opening would benefit and enrich the Astad family. 1:12:35.000 --> 1:12:37.759 Before the Syrian Civil War started in early two thousand 1:12:37.800 --> 1:12:40.120 and eleven, he was considered one of the wealthiest and 1:12:40.200 --> 1:12:43.720 most powerful men in Syria and controlled nearly sixty of 1:12:43.760 --> 1:12:48.240 the economy, including industries of real estate and telecommunication, aviation, 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:52.840 the dairy industry, tourism, electricity, and oil trading. According to 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:56.200 Syrian analysts, he is part of an inner circle and 1:12:56.320 --> 1:12:58.880 no foreign company could do business in Syria at the 1:12:58.960 --> 1:13:03.280 time without its scent and partnership. The last French ambassador 1:13:03.320 --> 1:13:06.120 to Syria had lunch with Rommie Ones and described him 1:13:06.200 --> 1:13:10.160 as acting as quote the king of Syria, puffing cigars 1:13:10.280 --> 1:13:13.439 and saying I'm in control and everything happens through me. 1:13:14.360 --> 1:13:17.879 Fast forward to our present day, the economy has completely 1:13:17.960 --> 1:13:21.240 collapsed ever since the uprising started in early thousand eleven. 1:13:21.840 --> 1:13:24.679 It could be seen as an accumulation of the past decade. 1:13:25.000 --> 1:13:28.280 Syria's sanction hit economy had always relied on Lebanon to 1:13:28.360 --> 1:13:31.000 sustain itself, but in the fall of twenty and nineteen, 1:13:31.120 --> 1:13:34.040 Lebanon had its own crises, and it was an economic 1:13:34.160 --> 1:13:37.800 and political turmoil which forced banks to control access to 1:13:37.920 --> 1:13:43.360 cash and prevent transfers abroad. Dagger explains, Lebanon has always 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:46.560 served as this economic pressure valve, not only for the 1:13:46.680 --> 1:13:50.120 regime but also for average Syrians. A lot of Syrians 1:13:50.200 --> 1:13:53.519 had their savings, their life savings, and Lebanese banks. One 1:13:53.560 --> 1:13:56.479 analyst told me that Syrians had one billion dollars in 1:13:56.560 --> 1:14:00.240 deposits in Syria itself versus forty billion dollars of Ayrian 1:14:00.320 --> 1:14:03.519 deposits in Lebanon. And then what happens in Lebanon. The 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:06.400 whole banking system crashes, There are protests in the streets 1:14:06.400 --> 1:14:09.960 of Lebanon, that outlet that Syrians had shuts down, and 1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:14.120 the situation becomes progressively worse than Syria. The value of 1:14:14.200 --> 1:14:18.240 the Syrian lira had also extremely diminished and continues to 1:14:19.360 --> 1:14:22.400 trying to recover from this plummet of the Syrian economy. 1:14:22.560 --> 1:14:25.639 But Shadow turned to capitalists that he had empowered twenty 1:14:25.760 --> 1:14:30.040 years prior, including his cousin Rabbi Mhlouf, but Shad asked 1:14:30.120 --> 1:14:33.360 romy for two hundred and thirty million dollars, specifically in 1:14:33.479 --> 1:14:37.560 back taxes. It was described essentially as being a shakedown. 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:40.920 The world saw this as a huge falling out between 1:14:41.000 --> 1:14:45.160 Syria's richest man and its president, a dictator, but shadow 1:14:45.360 --> 1:14:50.120 sent Other prominent businessmen, not just Ramy, were also targeted, 1:14:50.320 --> 1:14:52.960 and they all quietly agreed to pay whatever the regime 1:14:53.040 --> 1:14:56.040 was asking for. The economy was an in dire state 1:14:56.200 --> 1:14:59.639 and the regime urgently needed cash, so the government asked 1:14:59.680 --> 1:15:02.000 for myn from the businessmen and had empowered in the 1:15:02.080 --> 1:15:05.439 first place, and most of them comply but not run. 1:15:07.479 --> 1:15:11.200 In June, Mahluf stated that he would quote quit the 1:15:11.280 --> 1:15:16.560 Syrian business scene. On May one, Mahaleuf made an unprecedented 1:15:16.600 --> 1:15:20.200 public appeal to his cousin. He made this appeal on Facebook, 1:15:20.280 --> 1:15:23.400 saying that officials were seeking to seize his assets as 1:15:23.439 --> 1:15:26.400 he was pressured to hand over an excess of one 1:15:26.520 --> 1:15:29.840 hundred and thirty billion. I think it's what all those 1:15:29.920 --> 1:15:33.720 zeros mean. An excess of add thirty billion liras due 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:37.880 to tax evasion, Mahlouf, who was a part of the 1:15:37.960 --> 1:15:41.120 Shadow Sets inner circle, said he would pay the president himself, 1:15:41.320 --> 1:15:44.800 but not the state. Two days later, he posted another 1:15:44.920 --> 1:15:48.040 video on Facebook where he mentioned that Syrian security forces 1:15:48.200 --> 1:15:51.559 arrested some of his employees. He said, how could they 1:15:51.600 --> 1:15:53.920 do this when I was their biggest supporter and their 1:15:53.960 --> 1:15:58.639 biggest servant during the war. However, speculations indicate the Assyrian 1:15:58.680 --> 1:16:02.679 First Lady Sma Assent had been responsible for this whole plot, 1:16:03.320 --> 1:16:06.160 the reason being that quote to many businessmen loyal to 1:16:06.320 --> 1:16:10.559 Esthima competed with Mahloof for control of diminishing resources after 1:16:10.680 --> 1:16:13.840 collapse of the Syrian Pound, along with sanctions, made the 1:16:13.880 --> 1:16:17.120 space in which they compete narrow and difficult. This is 1:16:17.360 --> 1:16:21.519 according to Dr Mohan A. Hejudi, a researcher at the 1:16:21.600 --> 1:16:25.559 Carnegie Middle East Center. In addition, the Syrian authorities might 1:16:25.600 --> 1:16:28.880 have targeted Mahlouf in order to find resources prior to 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:32.400 the implementation of U S sanctions related to the Caesar Act. 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:36.880 On May seventy, Mahlouf posted another video on Facebook where 1:16:36.880 --> 1:16:39.880 he mentioned rising pressure on him to handover profits or 1:16:39.960 --> 1:16:43.839 he might be arrested. On May nineteenth, the Syrian government 1:16:43.920 --> 1:16:47.080 seized all assets belonging to Mahlouf. On the twenty one, 1:16:47.320 --> 1:16:51.439 a Syrian court placed a temporary travel banna Mahlouf. On June, 1:16:52.880 --> 1:16:56.639 the Syrian government terminated duty free contracts in all ports 1:16:56.880 --> 1:17:01.200 and border crossings with companies affiliated with Mahouf. This drama 1:17:01.280 --> 1:17:03.960 between Bashad and Rommi resulted in talks of a rift 1:17:04.080 --> 1:17:06.800 in the regime's inner circle, and people were concerned that 1:17:06.880 --> 1:17:09.400 this would expose a rift in the Allo White community itself, 1:17:09.640 --> 1:17:12.519 which had supplied the bulk of the fighting forces for 1:17:12.600 --> 1:17:16.439 the regime. Because in these Facebook videos, Rammi wasn't only 1:17:16.479 --> 1:17:19.920 appealing to his cousin, his patron with whom he built 1:17:19.920 --> 1:17:23.639 a twenty year symbiotic relationship with. He was also appealing 1:17:23.720 --> 1:17:26.799 to the average members of their religious sect, the Allo Whites, 1:17:27.160 --> 1:17:29.840 most of whom are nowhere near the wealth of the 1:17:29.880 --> 1:17:33.720 Assad family's inner circle. He was tongued Allowhites that we 1:17:33.840 --> 1:17:36.920 had sacrificed everything for the regime and our sons were 1:17:37.000 --> 1:17:39.320 killed in order for the regime to remain in power, 1:17:39.800 --> 1:17:42.000 and instead of being rewarded for the fruits of this, 1:17:42.360 --> 1:17:45.000 the regime was going after an important figure who has 1:17:45.080 --> 1:17:48.040 been instrumental in supporting people through his business a k 1:17:48.200 --> 1:17:51.680 a Rommi himself, and it wasn't necessarily untrue, but he 1:17:51.800 --> 1:17:55.799 wasn't helping people for free obviously, and Johnny had expected 1:17:55.840 --> 1:17:59.599 people to remain loyal to him despite all of this. Basically, 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:03.600 the Assad family had finished devouring the Syrian state and 1:18:03.680 --> 1:18:07.000 its resources, and it had now started to devour each other. 1:18:07.720 --> 1:18:13.240 As of of Syrians live in poverty and are unemployed. 1:18:13.840 --> 1:18:17.679 There's unrelenting inflation, and basic goods have doubled or tripled 1:18:17.720 --> 1:18:23.200 in price, rice, flour, sugar, coffee. Everything has become obscenely expensive. 1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:27.360 There's hardly any meat, and gas is priced in American dollars, 1:18:27.640 --> 1:18:31.679 which you can only imagine how high that goes. When 1:18:31.760 --> 1:18:34.200 my family and I talks to our Familure members that 1:18:34.240 --> 1:18:37.599 are still in Syria, we hear about the electricity being 1:18:37.680 --> 1:18:40.800 out for days and weeks, and then the water being 1:18:40.880 --> 1:18:43.439 out for the same amount of time, and the people 1:18:43.479 --> 1:18:47.360 are essentially being suffocated by their own government. People are 1:18:47.439 --> 1:18:51.799 questioned and tortured and kept in prisons for absolutely no reason, 1:18:51.960 --> 1:18:54.240 and the only way they can get out is by 1:18:54.320 --> 1:18:58.639 bribing the prisons thousands of dollars for no reason. It's 1:18:58.640 --> 1:19:02.160 just about greed, it's about power, it's about terrible people. 1:19:02.400 --> 1:19:08.280 These monsters just destroying this beautiful place. Syria is so beautiful, 1:19:08.840 --> 1:19:12.200 and I just my heart breaks for the land and 1:19:12.320 --> 1:19:17.200 for the people. So although the A Sad regime continues 1:19:17.280 --> 1:19:20.920 to present itself as the ultimate and only power in Syria, 1:19:21.439 --> 1:19:24.320 Bashad has actually been at his weakest point in the 1:19:24.400 --> 1:19:27.799 last two years. He is only still in his position 1:19:27.920 --> 1:19:30.760 because the Russians and Iranians want him to be there, 1:19:31.200 --> 1:19:34.240 and he's only able to maintain his role by playing 1:19:34.280 --> 1:19:37.880 off his two patrons against each other, Iran and Russia. 1:19:38.720 --> 1:19:41.680 This is a regime that always derived its power from 1:19:41.760 --> 1:19:44.559 the army and from the security forces, but the army 1:19:44.680 --> 1:19:47.960 largely does not exist anymore. Yes, there are divisions that 1:19:48.000 --> 1:19:50.080 are trained by the Russians in an attempt to put 1:19:50.200 --> 1:19:53.439 this army back together, but even the loyalists who support 1:19:53.479 --> 1:19:55.759 the Shadow said don't want to join the army anymore. 1:19:56.080 --> 1:19:59.360 They would rather leave the country. So the regime's only 1:19:59.400 --> 1:20:03.880 option left is to continue to rule by fear. This 1:20:04.000 --> 1:20:06.320 has had mixed results, especially when you look at the 1:20:06.439 --> 1:20:11.519 uprisings that have continued since. However much they have dissipated people, 1:20:11.560 --> 1:20:15.320 put themselves on the streets, not hiding their identities, vocally 1:20:15.400 --> 1:20:18.439 and loudly opposing the regime and demanding for the removal 1:20:18.479 --> 1:20:21.760 of the shadow. At this behavior, as we've seen, it's 1:20:21.800 --> 1:20:24.479 unacceptable by the regime and it's led to the regime 1:20:24.600 --> 1:20:28.559 all but destroying its own country. Estimates of the total 1:20:28.680 --> 1:20:31.960 number of deaths in the Syrian Civil War by opposition 1:20:32.040 --> 1:20:36.160 activist groups vary between five hundred thousand people and six 1:20:36.280 --> 1:20:40.400 hundred thousand people as of March. And I think it's 1:20:40.479 --> 1:20:46.000 really notable that Syrians are vocally expressing their outrage and 1:20:46.800 --> 1:20:50.400 there's just a history there of so much trauma. In 1:20:50.439 --> 1:20:53.000 two thousand five, for example, my mother was telling me 1:20:53.600 --> 1:20:57.360 that a list of demands, so like what's math six 1:20:57.520 --> 1:21:00.560 years after the first uprisings occurred in twenty oven. In 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:04.200 two thousand five, a list of demands or corrections um 1:21:04.600 --> 1:21:07.280 were written down the things that people wanted to fix 1:21:07.400 --> 1:21:11.200 of the government, free press, free expression, they wanted to 1:21:11.240 --> 1:21:14.800 make the government and democracy. And Bashad allowed them to 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:17.680 list their demands and what they wanted to fix and 1:21:18.320 --> 1:21:21.839 handed over to him to look at. Essentially an Arabic 1:21:21.920 --> 1:21:26.040 this is called eland mushk and it seemed like maybe 1:21:26.080 --> 1:21:30.400 an open conversation could happen. But then everyone who signed 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:34.719 this petition was looked up, hunted down, sent to jail, 1:21:35.360 --> 1:21:38.080 some for decades and some people that are still there, 1:21:38.680 --> 1:21:41.840 and others fled the country after they started collecting people. 1:21:42.800 --> 1:21:45.320 This Ellen de Musk was the beginning of the end. 1:21:45.560 --> 1:21:48.120 It was the end of the few liberties that people 1:21:48.240 --> 1:21:53.679 thought would come when took power. He named everyone who signed, 1:21:53.800 --> 1:21:58.000 everyone who supported the newspeople to press as terrorists. And 1:21:58.080 --> 1:22:01.200 I think in spite of that, six years later there 1:22:01.320 --> 1:22:05.400 was still an uprising. It was an accumulated need to 1:22:05.720 --> 1:22:08.479 fight back. And so going back to that saying that 1:22:08.560 --> 1:22:11.639 a SAD loyalists spray paint on the cities, that SAD 1:22:11.680 --> 1:22:14.960 has demolished a Sad or we burned the country, it 1:22:15.080 --> 1:22:18.880 seems like both choices have come true. The shadows Set 1:22:18.920 --> 1:22:21.280 has stayed in power, and he's also burned the country 1:22:21.320 --> 1:22:24.160 to the ground. And the more he stays in power, 1:22:24.520 --> 1:22:28.200 the worst life gets for Syrians. The country is destroyed, 1:22:28.479 --> 1:22:32.120 families are shattered, and many many people have died. The 1:22:32.240 --> 1:22:35.920 cost is insurmountable. But a lot of Syrians don't see 1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:39.800 this fight as over their injustices and grievances remain the same, 1:22:40.040 --> 1:22:45.160 even after experiencing indescribable horrors over the past twelve years. 1:22:46.200 --> 1:22:50.719 Syrian people, like all people, they want dignity, they want justice, 1:22:51.400 --> 1:22:54.280 and they can no longer accept living in this inhumane 1:22:54.360 --> 1:22:57.360 system where your most basic rights as a human being 1:22:57.840 --> 1:23:02.439 depend on your proximity to power. Anyway, this is Sharine. 1:23:02.720 --> 1:23:07.560 Thank you for listening. I sincerely appreciate your time and 1:23:08.720 --> 1:23:25.240 I'll see you. Welcome to it could happen here the 1:23:25.280 --> 1:23:27.439 podcast about the world falling apart and how we can 1:23:27.439 --> 1:23:31.000 put it back together again. I'm your host, Christopher Wong. Now. 1:23:31.680 --> 1:23:34.000 Three months ago we covered Great Abbot's attempt to shut 1:23:34.040 --> 1:23:36.000 down the border and how he was forced basically to 1:23:36.080 --> 1:23:38.920 back down by a Mexican trucker strike. And in that 1:23:39.040 --> 1:23:41.840 episode we mentioned that Abbot's newest stunt was deporting people 1:23:41.840 --> 1:23:44.080 from Texas to Washington, d C. To make Biden look 1:23:44.160 --> 1:23:47.880 bad by you know, moving the problem to him. And 1:23:48.200 --> 1:23:50.680 as a political stunt, this has largely failed as a 1:23:50.800 --> 1:23:54.439 humanitarian disaster, inflicting untold human misery on completely innocent people. 1:23:54.520 --> 1:23:57.680 It is still continuing to unfold, and here today to 1:23:57.760 --> 1:24:01.519 talk about this with US is Amy Fish with Sanctuary 1:24:01.640 --> 1:24:04.439 d m V and the Migrant Solidarity Mutual Aid Network. Amy, 1:24:04.560 --> 1:24:06.160 thank you for joining us and welcome to the show. 1:24:07.200 --> 1:24:09.360 Thank you so much for having me. So excited to 1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:13.720 be here. Yeah, um, somewhat less excited that this is 1:24:13.760 --> 1:24:19.559 happening because dear God. Yeah. So, I guess to start off, 1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:22.000 do you want to tell us a bit about what's 1:24:22.040 --> 1:24:24.920 been I guess how this started in what the sort 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:27.920 of initial reaction and non reaction of the d C 1:24:28.080 --> 1:24:33.839 government has been. Sure so, Um, in April, Governor Abbott 1:24:34.040 --> 1:24:40.080 started bussing people from the border to d C. Um. 1:24:40.880 --> 1:24:44.360 We knew from the get go that this was a 1:24:45.000 --> 1:24:49.080 racist publicity stunt, um, particularly because the first few busses 1:24:49.120 --> 1:24:52.559 were dropped off right in front of the Fox News building. UM, 1:24:53.120 --> 1:24:57.080 and we all initially thought it was going to be 1:24:58.160 --> 1:25:03.760 a few weeks of bussing people. And here we are, 1:25:04.840 --> 1:25:08.120 um in the middle of July, and the buses have 1:25:08.439 --> 1:25:14.360 kept coming. Um. Buses arrive to d C basically every 1:25:14.479 --> 1:25:19.040 single day of the week except for UM Monday evenings 1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:24.479 and Tuesday mornings, and there have been probably around thirty 1:25:25.400 --> 1:25:31.400 people bussed from Texas to d C. And uh not 1:25:31.920 --> 1:25:37.000 too long after Governor Juicy of Arizona started doing the 1:25:37.040 --> 1:25:40.760 same thing and bussing people from the Arizona border to 1:25:41.280 --> 1:25:46.639 d C, and the d C government has basically been 1:25:46.880 --> 1:25:51.360 unwilling to grapple with the reality of what's happening. You know, 1:25:51.680 --> 1:25:57.840 people are arriving to d C with very very little resources, 1:25:58.080 --> 1:26:00.960 typically like the clothes on their act. Sometimes they don't 1:26:01.000 --> 1:26:03.000 even have shoes on their feet when they get off 1:26:03.040 --> 1:26:08.080 the buses. And it's been, um, kind of amazing to 1:26:08.200 --> 1:26:11.320 see the way that the DC community has responded. It's 1:26:11.360 --> 1:26:16.080 been like the type of response that makes me remarkably 1:26:16.800 --> 1:26:20.840 proud of being a DC resident and being from the area. 1:26:21.040 --> 1:26:25.599 And also, um, it's something that the d C government 1:26:26.439 --> 1:26:32.360 is turning in a blind eye to um and pretending like, um, 1:26:33.520 --> 1:26:36.479 the reality that we are seeing when we are talking 1:26:36.560 --> 1:26:38.640 to people that are getting off the buses day in 1:26:38.680 --> 1:26:41.920 and day out, it's just it's like entirely different from 1:26:42.160 --> 1:26:48.080 what you know, the DC mayor is saying about the situation. Yeah, 1:26:48.240 --> 1:26:50.640 and I guess, well, okay, so before we talk, I 1:26:50.720 --> 1:26:57.519 guess fully about the DC governments just catastrophic. I don't 1:26:57.520 --> 1:26:59.240 even want to know if I want to say incompetence 1:26:59.280 --> 1:27:02.880 so much is just like we'll just let these people suffer. UM, 1:27:02.960 --> 1:27:04.840 Can we talk a bit about what what what the 1:27:04.880 --> 1:27:08.160 community responses looked like and what y'all have been doing. Sure, 1:27:08.280 --> 1:27:10.400 so maybe to back up a little bit to to 1:27:10.560 --> 1:27:14.200 tell you about sort of like what the experiences of 1:27:14.439 --> 1:27:16.479 the people that are getting off the buses. These are 1:27:16.520 --> 1:27:20.559 people that are typically UM coming to the United States 1:27:20.880 --> 1:27:24.920 to seek asylum. They're being processed at the border for 1:27:25.000 --> 1:27:28.080 a few days, and I think what like have been 1:27:28.280 --> 1:27:32.240 commonly started to be referred to as like the Pereiras 1:27:32.280 --> 1:27:35.040 and Jeleras at the border, so like the dog cannels, 1:27:35.040 --> 1:27:37.040 the ice boxes, and the at the border and that 1:27:37.120 --> 1:27:42.280 are being paroled into the country. And um, so the 1:27:43.240 --> 1:27:48.080 Customs and Border Protections CDP is releasing these folks to 1:27:48.920 --> 1:27:52.880 UM like respite centers type of places at the border. 1:27:53.160 --> 1:27:56.639 UM in Texas. Most of the folks are coming from 1:27:56.880 --> 1:28:02.160 Del Rio and Eagle Path, UM. And then they're being 1:28:02.280 --> 1:28:04.880 told that there's these free busses to d C. And 1:28:05.000 --> 1:28:07.720 it's it's a little bit mind boggling because we know 1:28:08.120 --> 1:28:14.200 that Governor Abbott is doing these bus this bussing purely 1:28:14.400 --> 1:28:20.439 out of the most like racist xenophobic intentions. And also 1:28:20.800 --> 1:28:23.400 for many of the folks, it's a free bus to 1:28:23.720 --> 1:28:27.000 to get to where they're trying to go. And so 1:28:27.200 --> 1:28:29.800 people are riding on the buses arriving in d C 1:28:31.479 --> 1:28:37.000 and then you know, many of them are trying to 1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:41.040 get to other places along the East coast UM and 1:28:41.160 --> 1:28:46.760 many are planning on staying in d C UM. And 1:28:47.200 --> 1:28:53.559 so what has happened is we've um developed a massive 1:28:53.720 --> 1:28:58.320 mutual aid response, which has been super cool. So you know, 1:28:58.880 --> 1:29:02.920 we have of a crew of volunteers that meet the 1:29:03.080 --> 1:29:07.680 buses when they arrive UM at Union Station. And if 1:29:07.720 --> 1:29:10.599 you're not familiar with d C, Union Station is sort 1:29:10.640 --> 1:29:13.280 of the big transit center and in the middle of 1:29:13.400 --> 1:29:18.680 d C UM actually relatively close to where the capital is. UM. 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:21.679 It's sort of like the DC equivalent of like Penn 1:29:21.800 --> 1:29:24.400 Station in New York or something like that. UM. And 1:29:24.520 --> 1:29:27.479 so they're dropped off in front of Union Station. We 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:32.640 have folks that will welcome them and UM typically we 1:29:32.800 --> 1:29:37.320 bring to folks to uh different churches around the area 1:29:37.479 --> 1:29:40.320 that have opened up their spaces as respite centers for us, 1:29:40.520 --> 1:29:44.080 and we uh you know, sit down with folks, we 1:29:44.280 --> 1:29:48.160 offer them some food and really try and talk through 1:29:48.360 --> 1:29:51.120 what their needs are and help them as best as 1:29:51.200 --> 1:29:54.360 we can meet those needs, whether it is you know, 1:29:54.720 --> 1:30:00.360 folks may have UM medical or like trauma they need 1:30:00.439 --> 1:30:04.120 to work through UM. Maybe they're trying to get to 1:30:04.600 --> 1:30:07.280 New York, and so we'll help them, you know, communicate 1:30:07.320 --> 1:30:09.400 with family members or help them find their way to 1:30:09.560 --> 1:30:12.640 New York. We you know, for the folks that are 1:30:12.880 --> 1:30:16.120 staying in d C, we've done our best to help them, 1:30:16.880 --> 1:30:19.320 you know, find a way to kind of get settled 1:30:19.400 --> 1:30:21.680 and put down roots in their new community, getting them 1:30:21.720 --> 1:30:26.920 connected to community members that help them you know, navigate 1:30:27.080 --> 1:30:29.800 DC to to them how to use the metro, help 1:30:29.920 --> 1:30:32.800 them get to their you know, check in appointments as 1:30:32.880 --> 1:30:35.280 they're you know having to jump through all of the 1:30:35.360 --> 1:30:38.760 hoops of ice and being surveilled by the state, and 1:30:39.080 --> 1:30:43.640 and helping them you know, have access to lawyers to 1:30:44.240 --> 1:30:46.640 explain their legal process and really just kind of like 1:30:47.479 --> 1:30:51.200 I don't know, I took a dude to to Target 1:30:51.320 --> 1:30:54.000 to be to like help them get go shopping, and 1:30:54.920 --> 1:30:58.840 you know, took folks to get uh, just like the 1:30:59.040 --> 1:31:02.000 random stuff that people need when they arrive in a 1:31:02.080 --> 1:31:04.640 new place in the same way that, Like, I don't know, 1:31:04.800 --> 1:31:06.600 if I had a friend moving to d C, I 1:31:06.640 --> 1:31:08.439 would be like, Hey, what do you need? Like how 1:31:08.520 --> 1:31:10.320 can I help you get to know this place? Like 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:13.439 this is how our bike share program works, like just 1:31:13.560 --> 1:31:19.040 the most basic welcome, get settled. Can we talk a 1:31:19.120 --> 1:31:21.519 little bit more about what the sort of legal process 1:31:21.600 --> 1:31:23.400 looks like here and what like, for example, like explain 1:31:23.479 --> 1:31:29.639 what check ins are and yeah, so, UM, the folks 1:31:29.720 --> 1:31:33.960 that are arriving are being paroled in UM and so 1:31:34.320 --> 1:31:38.639 basically what it means is that they are then under 1:31:38.920 --> 1:31:44.360 surveillance from the federal government UM from ICE, which is 1:31:44.400 --> 1:31:49.200 Immigration and Customs Enforcement, And what that looks like is 1:31:49.479 --> 1:31:53.439 a little bit of a crapshoot. UM. So many many 1:31:53.560 --> 1:31:56.800 of the folks are UM at the border given cell 1:31:56.880 --> 1:32:02.519 phones UM that have tracking on them, and so with 1:32:02.800 --> 1:32:05.000 that cell phone, they're being tracked by the government. They 1:32:05.040 --> 1:32:08.400 basically have to take like selfies ever so often to 1:32:09.479 --> 1:32:12.680 UM check in and then they're basically being enrolled in 1:32:12.800 --> 1:32:16.840 this program called i APP, which is the I can't 1:32:16.840 --> 1:32:21.080 remember the acronym, it's it's a supervision program. And so 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:24.680 they have to go to an ICE office once they 1:32:24.800 --> 1:32:29.200 arrive in whatever city that they're arriving to UM. Oftentimes 1:32:29.240 --> 1:32:32.200 they're being asked to turn in the I the ICE 1:32:32.240 --> 1:32:34.760 cell phones and having to download an app on their 1:32:34.800 --> 1:32:37.559 cell phones. If they don't have a cell phone, they 1:32:37.640 --> 1:32:40.360 might be given an ankle monitor or what many of 1:32:40.360 --> 1:32:43.679 the Spanish speakers called like a great They be basically 1:32:43.800 --> 1:32:49.200 like an ankle shackle UM for electronic monitoring. They'll have 1:32:50.040 --> 1:32:53.080 UM officers you know, show up at their house, so 1:32:53.240 --> 1:32:56.439 sometimes they have to you know, be at home from 1:32:56.640 --> 1:32:59.919 seven am to seven pm so that you know, Immigration 1:33:00.000 --> 1:33:02.120 and come come buy and make sure that they're like 1:33:03.120 --> 1:33:07.560 still there. And basically that part of the program is 1:33:08.120 --> 1:33:11.400 entirely so the government can keep a track of where 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:14.120 these folks are. It has nothing to do with like 1:33:14.920 --> 1:33:17.640 the actual legal process that they are trying to go 1:33:17.880 --> 1:33:20.760 through to to be able to stay here permanently. So 1:33:21.680 --> 1:33:24.080 separate and apart from that, the vast majority of these 1:33:24.120 --> 1:33:27.560 folks are asylum seekers. And so what that means is 1:33:27.640 --> 1:33:30.760 that you know, once they're here, they have a year 1:33:30.920 --> 1:33:34.960 to apply for asylum and then they're thrust into the 1:33:35.200 --> 1:33:40.200 like totally broken asylum system that has you know, years 1:33:40.280 --> 1:33:43.000 long backlogs and things like that, and so then they'll 1:33:43.000 --> 1:33:47.000 be basically trying to find a way to um get 1:33:47.240 --> 1:33:51.200 an asylum grant to be able to stay here permanently 1:33:51.560 --> 1:33:55.840 while also navigating the surveillance that's happening on the ICE 1:33:55.920 --> 1:34:00.759 side of things are so I know, something that happens 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:04.240 with like I guess regular prison a lot are people 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:08.640 being forced to pay for the ankle bracelets, which is 1:34:08.720 --> 1:34:14.680 which is like from their minimum But yeahs, I mean, 1:34:14.800 --> 1:34:18.120 I will say that we've one of the issues that 1:34:18.280 --> 1:34:22.519 we have started, um sort of trying to figure out 1:34:22.600 --> 1:34:27.080 how to navigate, is that what we're seeing is people, 1:34:27.600 --> 1:34:29.759 you know, they get the ICE cell phones at the border, 1:34:29.960 --> 1:34:32.040 and then at their check in they're supposed to turn 1:34:32.120 --> 1:34:34.439 in the ICE cell phones and then download this at 1:34:34.479 --> 1:34:39.240 this surveillance app on their phone. Um, many folks don't 1:34:39.320 --> 1:34:42.240 have a cell phone or the app only works if 1:34:42.320 --> 1:34:45.560 you have I think a five G phone, So you 1:34:45.920 --> 1:34:48.839 basically have to have like the fanciest of the phones, 1:34:49.080 --> 1:34:53.120 which if you're an asylum secret and you just risked 1:34:53.160 --> 1:34:56.240 it all to come here to seek safety and you 1:34:56.400 --> 1:35:00.120 don't really have a support in the US, and now 1:35:00.200 --> 1:35:02.719 you're being told that you have to have this super 1:35:02.760 --> 1:35:08.360 fancy phone or you get an inkle shackle. It's it's 1:35:08.400 --> 1:35:12.439 just kind of a ridiculous thing knowing that it's okay, 1:35:12.560 --> 1:35:15.360 maybe you're privileged enough to be able to be surveilled 1:35:15.400 --> 1:35:17.640 on your own personal cell phone or you just have 1:35:17.800 --> 1:35:20.559 to have an ankle shackle at all time. So much 1:35:20.600 --> 1:35:23.160 of this process just like it really feels just like 1:35:23.240 --> 1:35:26.320 it's it's just it's surveillance just sort of for the 1:35:26.400 --> 1:35:30.720 purpose of humiliation. It's surveillance for the purpose of humiliation. 1:35:31.040 --> 1:35:38.679 It's surveillance for the sake of some Um. This idea 1:35:39.000 --> 1:35:44.479 that we've been dealing with in the US since September eleven, 1:35:44.800 --> 1:35:51.479 that uh, immigration is a national security concern that you know, 1:35:51.800 --> 1:35:55.599 if if immigrants aren't being surveilled twenty four hours it did, 1:35:55.760 --> 1:35:59.280 then like lord knows what they could do. Um. When 1:35:59.320 --> 1:36:01.320 the reality is is these are folks that are just 1:36:01.520 --> 1:36:07.040 like normal people trying to live their best lives. UM. 1:36:07.400 --> 1:36:10.440 And I also think how I think it's really important 1:36:10.520 --> 1:36:15.000 to say how much of this is also entirely based 1:36:15.280 --> 1:36:22.320 on government funding and availability That so oftentimes the decision 1:36:22.439 --> 1:36:25.880 as to what kind of surveillance you're under is based 1:36:25.960 --> 1:36:32.240 upon what is available, um, based on contracts with you know, 1:36:33.320 --> 1:36:36.120 private surveillance companies and private prison companies that have a 1:36:36.160 --> 1:36:44.800 surveillance arm and things like that. It's it's entirely profit driven. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Again, 1:36:44.840 --> 1:36:47.320 I keep thinking about prisons. It's just like, yeah, I 1:36:47.320 --> 1:36:50.200 mean literally literally the same companies doing this kind of 1:36:50.240 --> 1:36:54.000 stuff and how Yeah, and like I think, I don't know, 1:36:54.160 --> 1:36:57.960 there's there's this kind of like I mean, I guess 1:36:58.000 --> 1:37:00.519 people it's just a prison industrial complex. But yeah, there's 1:37:00.560 --> 1:37:03.240 this whole there's a sort of like state private sector 1:37:04.200 --> 1:37:06.040 complex at both feed on each other where you have 1:37:06.200 --> 1:37:08.120 these companies taking federal money to do stuff. You have 1:37:08.200 --> 1:37:10.720 these companies who are like have figured out ways to 1:37:10.840 --> 1:37:15.560 extract like money from the people that they're suvailing. And 1:37:16.000 --> 1:37:19.960 I guess, okay, keep keeping on the thread of the 1:37:20.080 --> 1:37:25.120 state making people's lives miserable. Um, yeah, so Muriel Bowser 1:37:25.320 --> 1:37:29.200 not doing anything. Yeah, we're talking about that a bit. 1:37:30.280 --> 1:37:35.840 So Mariel Bowser's messaging that we have received has evolved 1:37:36.000 --> 1:37:40.360 a little bit here and there. So sometimes she says 1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:43.200 that the majority of people that are getting off the 1:37:43.280 --> 1:37:46.800 bus have everything they need and have families supporting them, 1:37:46.960 --> 1:37:49.519 and so there actually is no reason for the government 1:37:49.760 --> 1:37:53.880 to step forward because these people already have all of 1:37:54.000 --> 1:38:01.679 their needs met, which I would say maybe one person 1:38:01.960 --> 1:38:05.080 or one family ever every few days has someone that's 1:38:05.240 --> 1:38:07.599 you know, ready to meet them when they step off 1:38:07.640 --> 1:38:10.800 the bus, but the vast majority of people don't. And 1:38:11.160 --> 1:38:15.160 I would say that we're seeing an ever increasing amount 1:38:15.200 --> 1:38:18.360 of people that don't have anybody in the United States, 1:38:18.479 --> 1:38:21.920 and so they really are in need of a lot 1:38:22.040 --> 1:38:26.760 of supports to help them really figure out their way 1:38:26.880 --> 1:38:32.000 here because they don't have cousins or family friends or 1:38:32.080 --> 1:38:36.040 extended family, whatever it may be, to help them, you know, 1:38:36.200 --> 1:38:39.479 put down roots in the in their new communities. UM. 1:38:40.120 --> 1:38:44.639 And in recent weeks her messaging has shifted a little 1:38:44.680 --> 1:38:49.360 bit because there is actually a Spain based organization that 1:38:49.680 --> 1:38:54.320 got a grant from FEMA to support on the buses 1:38:55.120 --> 1:38:59.960 UM and so now Bowser's response is this organization sad 1:39:00.040 --> 1:39:05.040 know has it, It's covered. There's there's no like refuse. 1:39:05.200 --> 1:39:08.479 One refusing to even acknowledge the fact that the Mutual 1:39:08.560 --> 1:39:11.920 Aid Network has been and continues to do the vast 1:39:12.000 --> 1:39:15.160 majority of the welcoming of the folks that are arriving, 1:39:16.120 --> 1:39:23.479 and two once again refusing to acknowledge that there is 1:39:23.880 --> 1:39:33.599 any role that DC could be or should be playing here. Yeah, 1:39:33.640 --> 1:39:37.720 and it definitely it seems like I don't know. I mean, 1:39:37.800 --> 1:39:41.439 it's it's a kind of classic like state two steps, 1:39:41.479 --> 1:39:43.080 which like yeah, on the one hand is like okay, 1:39:43.080 --> 1:39:44.760 there's no problem. The second thing is we found an 1:39:44.920 --> 1:39:47.600 NGO we can sort of like pretend is doing the 1:39:47.680 --> 1:39:52.920 actual work. UM. And I guess one of your things 1:39:52.960 --> 1:39:56.439 that that I saw from y'all recently was a bunch 1:39:56.439 --> 1:39:58.880 of people got exposed to COVID while doing this and 1:40:00.360 --> 1:40:03.439 there was like basically, you guys did basically a work stoppage. 1:40:05.120 --> 1:40:13.760 So last week, UM, we basically hit a wall. UM, 1:40:14.160 --> 1:40:18.920 many of our core organizers had been exposed to COVID. UM, 1:40:19.600 --> 1:40:26.040 we were running out of funds because this work is expensive. UM. 1:40:27.040 --> 1:40:33.040 And we had been doing this as volunteers around the clock, 1:40:33.360 --> 1:40:35.400 you know, twenty four hours a day, seventies a week 1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:41.160 for months, and last week we kind of hit a wall. 1:40:41.640 --> 1:40:47.920 And UM told this NGO that is receiving female funding 1:40:48.240 --> 1:40:53.240 that UM we needed to take a beat, UM and 1:40:54.080 --> 1:40:58.519 take two days where you know, folks kuld get COVID 1:40:58.600 --> 1:41:01.040 tested and make sure they were clear to come back 1:41:01.120 --> 1:41:05.800 to work and rest and also spend time like we 1:41:06.080 --> 1:41:09.479 you know, call it a work stuffage, but we're all 1:41:09.520 --> 1:41:12.240 still working. We were all you know, having conversations as 1:41:12.280 --> 1:41:14.880 to how we make this work more sustainable, how we 1:41:15.080 --> 1:41:19.960 find you know, systems of support to to make this 1:41:21.160 --> 1:41:29.560 this welcome last. And unfortunately that resulted in people basically 1:41:29.840 --> 1:41:36.400 getting stranded at Union Station. UM. And when our folks 1:41:36.560 --> 1:41:42.320 were able to return to welcoming buses on UM you know, 1:41:42.520 --> 1:41:44.920 later in the week, they ended up with like I 1:41:45.000 --> 1:41:48.439 don't know, thirty additional people that had basically been sleeping 1:41:48.479 --> 1:41:53.760 at Union Station because this other NGO that you know 1:41:54.760 --> 1:41:57.760 is receiving federal funding to do the work that the 1:41:57.880 --> 1:42:00.719 mayor is saying has it and they're for she doesn't 1:42:00.760 --> 1:42:05.920 have to do anything, didn't show up. And and there 1:42:06.000 --> 1:42:09.120 were a handful of good Samaritans that like you know, 1:42:09.200 --> 1:42:11.080 would be at Union Station and see a bunch of 1:42:11.160 --> 1:42:13.639 folks and they you know, spoke different languages and would 1:42:13.640 --> 1:42:15.720 be able to support them kind of here and there. 1:42:16.840 --> 1:42:21.960 But it really showed how um I think it really 1:42:22.080 --> 1:42:25.840 proved the work that the futual Aid Network had been 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:28.240 holding and that you know, if we tried to take 1:42:28.280 --> 1:42:33.880 a step back things things fall um and really showed 1:42:34.040 --> 1:42:40.000 how much we need others to step in because the 1:42:40.120 --> 1:42:44.519 work that we've been holding has is has been you know, 1:42:44.880 --> 1:42:50.479 wearing us down and hiding the situation a little bit 1:42:50.640 --> 1:42:54.519 right that people don't people you know, when we're able 1:42:54.680 --> 1:42:59.360 to really show up and and provide the folks that 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:02.600 are arriving with the support that they need. What it 1:43:02.800 --> 1:43:07.280 means is that the government isn't paying attention because it's 1:43:07.520 --> 1:43:11.559 it's not their problem in that moment um. It means 1:43:11.800 --> 1:43:16.799 that DC residents don't have to walk by asylum seekers 1:43:16.920 --> 1:43:19.240 when they're trying to get to the Metro after work. 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:27.000 It means that, um, you know, the people are cared 1:43:27.080 --> 1:43:29.360 for and and that's great, and it's work that we're 1:43:29.400 --> 1:43:32.320 proud of it. It's work that we're doing well, um, 1:43:32.800 --> 1:43:36.599 But it's also work that we need support doing, um 1:43:38.439 --> 1:43:42.040 because it's it's a lot and the numbers have increased, 1:43:43.360 --> 1:43:48.120 you know, and and we want to be able to 1:43:49.080 --> 1:43:53.120 provide welcome. We want to be able to give the 1:43:53.200 --> 1:43:57.479 folks what they need. But as long as we're sort 1:43:57.520 --> 1:44:01.439 of living in this world where bus tickets are massively 1:44:01.560 --> 1:44:06.360 expensive and food is expensive, and you know, we gotta 1:44:06.439 --> 1:44:10.760 we gotta help clothes people and and help people meet 1:44:10.800 --> 1:44:13.960 their needs. Then then we have to have support. And 1:44:14.120 --> 1:44:17.160 that's just that's just the reality. Yeah, that's one of 1:44:17.200 --> 1:44:19.360 the things that is really frustrating about this too, is 1:44:19.360 --> 1:44:21.320 it's like it's not like the resources that you just 1:44:21.439 --> 1:44:23.519 don't exist, Like it's not it's not even like the 1:44:23.600 --> 1:44:26.479 state hasn't like attempted to put resources out, but it 1:44:26.560 --> 1:44:28.720 just got fed into this NGO complex people who are 1:44:28.760 --> 1:44:32.519 just doing nothing, and I don't know, like the the 1:44:35.800 --> 1:44:38.080 way you get to see sort of both arms of 1:44:38.200 --> 1:44:40.080 what the state does where it's like, okay, on the 1:44:40.080 --> 1:44:41.280 one hand, you have the part of the state that's 1:44:41.320 --> 1:44:44.759 just hitting people with clubs, that's just doing this stuff, 1:44:44.760 --> 1:44:46.240 and you get the sort of political army of the 1:44:46.280 --> 1:44:49.679 state who just like again are just literally shuffling people's 1:44:49.760 --> 1:44:52.960 lives around as as you know, as political theater, and 1:44:53.000 --> 1:44:55.920 the political theory doesn't matter because these people's lives don't 1:44:55.960 --> 1:44:58.320 matter to the state or to anyone who has even 1:44:58.360 --> 1:45:00.400 a tiny bit of power unless they you know, they're 1:45:00.560 --> 1:45:03.880 it's visible enough that people are like the people have 1:45:04.000 --> 1:45:06.799 to see it, and that people, you know, get annoyed 1:45:06.880 --> 1:45:09.000 because oh, hey, look at this thing happening that's like 1:45:09.120 --> 1:45:12.200 interfering with my life now, and you know, and then 1:45:12.240 --> 1:45:13.560 it's like, Okay, they're supposed to be part of the 1:45:13.560 --> 1:45:16.080 state that like tastes care of people, just isn't and 1:45:16.240 --> 1:45:23.080 that's just incredibly frustrating. I don't know, it's I think 1:45:23.240 --> 1:45:28.920 of a few things. So when we first started seeing 1:45:29.160 --> 1:45:35.200 buses coming to d C, um, you know that people 1:45:35.240 --> 1:45:38.280 are dropped off in front of Union Station and at 1:45:38.320 --> 1:45:42.080 the time, there was an encampment of an housed people 1:45:42.520 --> 1:45:46.479 um that you know, had their tents and stuff in 1:45:46.640 --> 1:45:49.240 front of Union Station. And so folks would get off 1:45:49.320 --> 1:45:51.280 the bus and say, you know, what are the tents, 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:54.240 Like who are these people living in tents? And so 1:45:55.040 --> 1:45:57.479 be like welcome, welcome to the nation's capital of this 1:45:57.600 --> 1:46:00.679 place that you just came to seek opportunity, to seek safety. 1:46:01.479 --> 1:46:06.040 And you're immediately showing getting showed in in the most 1:46:06.640 --> 1:46:10.160 you know, visible terms possible of the way that the 1:46:10.240 --> 1:46:14.840 state is failing its own people because people in d 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:20.000 C don't have housing um and housing gear is immensely expensive. 1:46:20.240 --> 1:46:25.439 And then um, I say in the early days because 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:29.720 uh in I think it was in May uh that 1:46:29.920 --> 1:46:34.080 encampment was cleared um and so those people lost their 1:46:34.120 --> 1:46:42.160 homes UM. And now it continues to be a struggle 1:46:42.439 --> 1:46:46.759 that you know, if we are unable to provide housing 1:46:46.960 --> 1:46:49.920 for the people that get off the bus, they are 1:46:50.000 --> 1:46:54.000 going into the DC shelter system that is already overrun 1:46:54.360 --> 1:46:58.679 because there is a housing crisis and TC and alarming 1:46:58.720 --> 1:47:04.639 eviction crisis. And even for the folks that are arriving 1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:10.960 here on the buses, if they don't have supports, they're 1:47:11.160 --> 1:47:15.680 they're thrust into this situation in which the state is 1:47:15.760 --> 1:47:19.720 preventing them from working. They don't have a way to 1:47:19.920 --> 1:47:28.320 work legally for at least a few months, um, presumably 1:47:28.600 --> 1:47:30.880 until you know, they can apply for a work permit, 1:47:31.000 --> 1:47:35.840 presumably after they file for asylum. But these are folks 1:47:35.920 --> 1:47:38.760 that don't have a way to work legally, that are 1:47:39.560 --> 1:47:44.519 have that have zero support from the state. So how like, 1:47:45.439 --> 1:47:50.000 tell me how somebody is supposed to live in the 1:47:50.160 --> 1:47:57.320 United States? Feed themselves, feed them their feed their families, um, 1:47:57.760 --> 1:48:02.200 have a roof over their head, survive, have a cell 1:48:02.280 --> 1:48:08.919 phone for your surveillance app have the means to travel 1:48:09.720 --> 1:48:15.800 an hour, you know, once every few weeks to check 1:48:15.880 --> 1:48:23.599 in with ICE. If they're legally prevented from working. It's 1:48:23.680 --> 1:48:32.320 just it's a total abandonment of people who need and 1:48:32.680 --> 1:48:39.120 wholeheartedly deserve support. Yeah, and I think like it's it's honestly, 1:48:39.200 --> 1:48:41.640 like honestly think it's it's worse than abandoned, right, Like 1:48:41.880 --> 1:48:44.240 if they just like if these people were allowed to 1:48:44.320 --> 1:48:46.519 come into the US and the state did literally nothing 1:48:46.920 --> 1:48:48.479 at all, it would be better in the situation that 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:50.599 exists now. Like it's not even just that they're being abandoned, 1:48:50.720 --> 1:48:54.120 is that they're actively being prevented from like doing the 1:48:54.200 --> 1:48:56.880 things they need to live. And it's I don't notice. 1:48:56.920 --> 1:48:58.400 I think this is something you see on a sort 1:48:58.400 --> 1:49:00.200 of broader level, right whether there's a lot of I 1:49:00.200 --> 1:49:01.600 don't know about Back when I was in sort of 1:49:01.640 --> 1:49:03.560 social theory land, there's a lot of talk about like 1:49:04.080 --> 1:49:06.920 necropolitics and the state letting people die, and it's like, well, yeah, 1:49:06.960 --> 1:49:09.280 but like they're also actively helping to kill them too, 1:49:09.479 --> 1:49:12.400 Like that that's like it's it's not just that the 1:49:12.439 --> 1:49:14.600 state abandons people. It's that the state abandons people and 1:49:14.600 --> 1:49:16.920 then it takes the resources and prevents anyone else from 1:49:17.000 --> 1:49:19.320 using them, and then you know, and when it when 1:49:19.360 --> 1:49:21.120 it does sort of yeah, I mean going back to 1:49:21.200 --> 1:49:23.040 sort of this NTO that's not doing anything. It's like, yeah, 1:49:23.040 --> 1:49:25.280 when when it when it does sort of send these 1:49:25.360 --> 1:49:29.160 resources out, it's sending them into these like into its 1:49:29.200 --> 1:49:31.160 own sort of Paris State complex with the sort of 1:49:31.320 --> 1:49:33.040 geo sector that's just not doing anything. And it's just 1:49:35.200 --> 1:49:39.519 I don't know, like it's it's this bind, right because 1:49:39.560 --> 1:49:41.920 it's like, yeah, like on the one hand, like communities 1:49:42.000 --> 1:49:43.840 have to be able to support each other, but it's 1:49:43.880 --> 1:49:48.840 like we don't have the resources for it, and that 1:49:48.960 --> 1:49:54.360 has to come from somewhere, right, Yeah, it's impossible, and 1:49:55.439 --> 1:49:59.439 it's it's heartbreaking to see when DC is barely doing 1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:02.160 anything ing for the people that have been living here 1:50:02.240 --> 1:50:07.080 for generations, and then when we have new folks arrive, 1:50:07.439 --> 1:50:16.120 they're thrust into this impossible situation and no one's really 1:50:16.200 --> 1:50:23.080 willing to engage with that problem. Um, and there are resources, 1:50:23.200 --> 1:50:26.479 it's just a matter of whether you want to use 1:50:26.560 --> 1:50:31.600 them for these purposes. And this is a problem that 1:50:31.680 --> 1:50:34.760 we're seeing intimately here in d C. But it's a 1:50:34.840 --> 1:50:39.080 problem that's existing everywhere around the country. And DC is 1:50:39.120 --> 1:50:42.280 supposed to be a sanctuary city, Like this isn't this 1:50:42.520 --> 1:50:46.720 isn't d C with a mayor that's you know, politically 1:50:46.800 --> 1:50:50.040 aligned with Governor Abbott. This isn't a d C with 1:50:50.200 --> 1:50:57.520 a mayor who is attempting to be vehemently anti immigrant. 1:50:59.280 --> 1:51:05.439 It's mayor who is claiming to represent a sanctuary city, 1:51:05.720 --> 1:51:11.040 a city that is supposed to welcome immigrants and yet 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:20.960 m saying welcome doesn't actually mean welcome. Yeah. I remember, 1:51:21.120 --> 1:51:23.720 like I'm in Chicago and you know, Chicago's also sanctuary city, 1:51:23.720 --> 1:51:25.800 and I I you know, we had to physically stop 1:51:25.840 --> 1:51:29.479 deportation flights with our bodies. Like what the this like 1:51:29.720 --> 1:51:32.679 haunting memory always remembers like the first big like anti ice, 1:51:32.840 --> 1:51:35.720 like anti kids in cages protests that we had. One 1:51:35.760 --> 1:51:37.880 of the groups that showed up to this thing like 1:51:38.160 --> 1:51:40.120 what it's called Heartland Alliance and then you know they 1:51:40.160 --> 1:51:42.679 describe itself as like this human rights an anti poverty organization, 1:51:42.800 --> 1:51:45.360 and they were literally running five child attention centers in 1:51:45.439 --> 1:51:50.320 Chicago and it was like, I don't know, the doesn't 1:51:50.320 --> 1:51:51.920 mean that. That was like just the sort of like 1:51:55.160 --> 1:51:57.640 the it's it's it's the rubber hitting the road of 1:51:57.960 --> 1:51:59.840 saying you're a sanctuary city, and what does it look 1:51:59.880 --> 1:52:01.240 like and it's like, well it means that your micro 1:52:01.320 --> 1:52:05.040 justice organizations like run child prisons for immigrants. It's a 1:52:05.160 --> 1:52:11.280 refusal to engage with reality a little bit. And you 1:52:11.360 --> 1:52:15.160 know the energy of SAMO that is receiving female funding 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:21.600 to presumably abandoned people. Union Station is also you know, 1:52:22.840 --> 1:52:25.640 if things go their way, trying to open up a 1:52:26.280 --> 1:52:31.360 facility and DC too, you know, detain an accompanied children 1:52:31.760 --> 1:52:34.679 and that's welcome to th things very ecity, it's probably 1:52:34.720 --> 1:52:38.640 worth mentioning. It's like, you know, Spain another country that 1:52:38.720 --> 1:52:43.960 has just like people getting like people. So Spain like 1:52:44.400 --> 1:52:46.760 has a part of North Africa they control, and you 1:52:46.800 --> 1:52:50.400 know they're like people like people get shot at the 1:52:50.439 --> 1:52:53.000 border by soldiers trying to like trying to climb fences 1:52:53.040 --> 1:52:56.000 getting in, and you know, it's it's it's this fun 1:52:56.120 --> 1:52:58.280 thing where we're seeing like, I mean, this is what's 1:52:58.280 --> 1:53:02.000 been happening for the last a really like forever, like 1:53:02.120 --> 1:53:05.200 last five hundred years has been this. But this the 1:53:05.280 --> 1:53:08.080 sort of this this incredible racist border system is not 1:53:08.200 --> 1:53:11.360 just an American thing. It's in Europe, it's in it's 1:53:11.400 --> 1:53:15.519 been exported like into Mexico itself. It's been I don't 1:53:15.520 --> 1:53:17.519 know it's it's it's it's it's a it's a politics 1:53:17.640 --> 1:53:20.800 that's just sort of everywhere, and like frontexs and THEU 1:53:20.960 --> 1:53:23.840 does this stuff like it's it's all just I don't know, 1:53:24.880 --> 1:53:29.840 it's borders are racist and they kill people and they 1:53:29.920 --> 1:53:35.360 kill people, and it feels I don't actually think we 1:53:35.479 --> 1:53:38.400 have to go to it's I think it's helpful to 1:53:38.640 --> 1:53:44.080 make those analogies of how this is replicated across the world. 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:51.519 But I also think that you know, just a few 1:53:51.560 --> 1:53:57.479 weeks ago, there were over fifty uh migrants that were 1:53:57.600 --> 1:54:02.519 found dead in the ba of attractor trailer in San Antonio, 1:54:02.920 --> 1:54:09.640 including you know, young indigenous folks. And we know that 1:54:10.320 --> 1:54:16.080 there have been thousands of thousands of Haitians removed under 1:54:16.160 --> 1:54:21.760 Title forty two UM and Haitians that are drowning in 1:54:22.040 --> 1:54:25.519 the water trying to find a way to come to 1:54:25.720 --> 1:54:31.040 the United States to seek safety. People are literally dying 1:54:31.439 --> 1:54:38.240 and trying to get here. And what the folks that 1:54:38.480 --> 1:54:43.640 are coming to d C in a way are the 1:54:43.800 --> 1:54:48.680 lucky ones because they're from countries like Venezuela. They're from 1:54:48.760 --> 1:54:53.960 countries like Cuba where US foreign policy finds it beneficial 1:54:54.720 --> 1:55:00.680 to allow them to enter too publicly say, you know, 1:55:00.920 --> 1:55:06.840 these are the quote unquote right asylum seekers and they're 1:55:06.960 --> 1:55:11.520 able to be paroled into the country and still have 1:55:11.760 --> 1:55:14.880 to deal with all of this crap that they're dealing with. 1:55:18.080 --> 1:55:26.040 But there's countless other black, brown, indigenous folks that are 1:55:26.200 --> 1:55:29.080 arriving at the border and literally risking their lives and 1:55:29.200 --> 1:55:34.640 many losing their lives trying to get here because of 1:55:35.040 --> 1:55:38.720 these like racialized border systems that we have and that 1:55:38.840 --> 1:55:42.960 we're exporting all throughout the America's like go south to 1:55:43.120 --> 1:55:46.080 Mexico to Tapatula and you basically have an open air 1:55:46.200 --> 1:55:50.680 prison of black asylum seekers. Yeah, I mean that's something 1:55:50.760 --> 1:55:54.160 that like like my my, the reason my family's here 1:55:54.240 --> 1:55:56.720 is because we were able to like my graphic got 1:55:56.800 --> 1:55:59.200 drafted into the Tiwanese army and he was like no, 1:56:00.000 --> 1:56:01.560 because we were Taiwanese, we were able to get to 1:56:01.600 --> 1:56:04.000 the US. But it's like, you know, lots and lots 1:56:04.040 --> 1:56:05.600 of people like you know, if you if you were 1:56:05.600 --> 1:56:07.400 from South Vietnam, sometime to let you in. If they 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:08.960 if you were from Taiwan, they will let you in, 1:56:09.120 --> 1:56:11.720 But like God help you if you're from like Indonesia 1:56:12.280 --> 1:56:14.240 or just like from I mean, so sometimes you get 1:56:14.240 --> 1:56:20.200 people from China, but it's like, yeah, the I don't 1:56:20.240 --> 1:56:23.680 know the way that just all of these people's lives 1:56:23.720 --> 1:56:25.840 are being used at geopolitical tools, they're being used, and 1:56:25.880 --> 1:56:27.640 then you know, once they get here, they're being used 1:56:27.680 --> 1:56:32.080 as just sort of internal American political tools. And yeah, 1:56:32.160 --> 1:56:33.760 it's just as watch people getting killed with the borders 1:56:33.800 --> 1:56:36.480 and until we fucking make borders go away, like the 1:56:36.480 --> 1:56:40.280 stuff is just going to keep happening, and people are 1:56:40.320 --> 1:56:43.200 getting boarded onto buses and sent to d C because 1:56:43.360 --> 1:56:45.560 Governor Abbott thinks this is the way that he can 1:56:45.640 --> 1:56:51.560 run for president. Yeah, by being the most racist, xenophobic 1:56:51.920 --> 1:56:55.000 guy in town. Maybe maybe, And and these folks are 1:56:55.080 --> 1:57:04.600 just political tools, and um, it's it's devastating, um, and 1:57:06.880 --> 1:57:13.200 it's it's really also kind of amazing to be able 1:57:13.320 --> 1:57:16.800 to then also just like hang out with them and 1:57:16.880 --> 1:57:20.080 break bread with them and and realize that we're all 1:57:20.280 --> 1:57:27.720 sort of fighting this this mess together. Yeah. And I 1:57:27.840 --> 1:57:32.000 think I don't know, like we we do. We do 1:57:32.040 --> 1:57:35.520 a lot of episodes here that are incredibly depressing, but yeah, 1:57:35.600 --> 1:57:38.200 like I guess, yeah, it isn't I guess important as 1:57:38.240 --> 1:57:39.600 a as a thing to sort of end on is it, 1:57:39.680 --> 1:57:42.080 Like yeah, I know, like we like we can take 1:57:42.120 --> 1:57:45.520 care of these people, like we can if we actually 1:57:45.600 --> 1:57:49.160 fight this together, we can beat these guys like we 1:57:51.240 --> 1:57:54.760 I don't know, like it is actually possible. Like these 1:57:54.840 --> 1:57:57.040 the all of the things that we're talking about, like 1:57:57.240 --> 1:57:59.080 the stuff didn't used to exist. It's not it's not 1:57:59.200 --> 1:58:01.000 something that in how really has to exist, and we 1:58:01.040 --> 1:58:07.960 can make it not exist again. I think the the 1:58:08.080 --> 1:58:13.400 response that we've had in DC has been are really 1:58:13.680 --> 1:58:16.560 like I can't say it enough how beautiful it is 1:58:16.760 --> 1:58:23.520 that we have a group of like over two volunteers 1:58:23.600 --> 1:58:26.320 that have stepped up, UM and we've been able to 1:58:26.520 --> 1:58:29.280 raise a remarkable amount of money, and we've had like, 1:58:30.240 --> 1:58:34.879 you know, little kids sell cookies to support our efforts 1:58:35.480 --> 1:58:42.240 and UM, it's it's really heartwarming, UM and people using 1:58:42.280 --> 1:58:46.920 their neighborhood listeners to you know, get donations of car 1:58:47.000 --> 1:58:50.360 seats to be able to you know, make sure that 1:58:50.760 --> 1:58:53.760 when we're you know, helping families, we can make sure 1:58:53.840 --> 1:58:56.000 that like the little kiddos are able to travel in 1:58:56.080 --> 1:58:59.120 car seats safely and all of that. And we've been 1:58:59.320 --> 1:59:01.520 able to and we're doing more of this of like 1:59:01.640 --> 1:59:04.400 building relationships with folks around the country that are doing 1:59:04.480 --> 1:59:08.320 similar work, or you know, if someone is taking a 1:59:08.480 --> 1:59:12.360 bus to New York and it, you know, breaks down 1:59:12.480 --> 1:59:15.760 in Philly, were able to mobilize other volunteers and Philly 1:59:15.880 --> 1:59:18.080 to just like make sure that folks are like fine 1:59:18.120 --> 1:59:20.360 and okay and like get on their next bus. And 1:59:20.560 --> 1:59:25.560 that is amazing and beautiful and to me, I think 1:59:25.640 --> 1:59:28.800 the thing that makes me optimistic and like mad at 1:59:28.880 --> 1:59:33.400 the same time is that there are both at the 1:59:33.480 --> 1:59:37.080 federal level and local levels, just billions and billions and 1:59:37.160 --> 1:59:44.840 billions of dollars that are being invested into into solutions 1:59:45.480 --> 1:59:55.560 that are based on like detention, surveillance, border militarization. When 1:59:56.440 --> 2:00:00.040 God like if instead we just devoted those billy and 2:00:00.280 --> 2:00:03.120 billions and billions of dollars into making sure that like 2:00:03.400 --> 2:00:07.760 when folks arrive here, they can have like a comfy 2:00:07.840 --> 2:00:10.560 bed to to to like lay in at night and 2:00:10.840 --> 2:00:14.760 have food and be able to like support their families. 2:00:15.680 --> 2:00:21.040 I mean it kind of sounds revolutionary, but but it's 2:00:21.120 --> 2:00:24.400 just like it's so simple, um, and there is such 2:00:24.480 --> 2:00:30.560 a concerted effort to do the opposite of the most basic. Hey, 2:00:30.840 --> 2:00:35.240 welcome to my town. How can I welcome you. There 2:00:35.320 --> 2:00:40.160 was if I remembering my like immigrations history right there. 2:00:40.160 --> 2:00:42.560 They used they had this program in in the UK 2:00:43.120 --> 2:00:46.520 where for a while where they would bring okay, you'd 2:00:46.560 --> 2:00:48.120 have a family they're coming to the US and they 2:00:48.200 --> 2:00:49.920 get paied with the British family, and the British family 2:00:49.960 --> 2:00:52.080 would like show them the ropes. And it worked really well. 2:00:52.120 --> 2:00:53.960 Everyone loved it, and they stopped doing it because they 2:00:54.360 --> 2:00:56.440 once they brought people in that they couldn't deport them 2:00:56.680 --> 2:00:58.440 because the entire community would show up would just be 2:00:58.520 --> 2:01:01.400 like no, And so they stopped doing it. And it's 2:01:01.440 --> 2:01:04.080 like that's a problem, Like that's the problem that like 2:01:04.280 --> 2:01:07.800 people are then welcomed and loved by their communities. Like 2:01:07.960 --> 2:01:09.920 that shouldn't be a problem that we have to solve. 2:01:10.040 --> 2:01:13.320 That should be like, oh, this is a resounding success. Yeah, 2:01:13.360 --> 2:01:16.640 And instead it's like it's like actually living in a 2:01:16.720 --> 2:01:19.240 better world, actually having a community where people care for 2:01:19.280 --> 2:01:20.920 each other and where people take care of each other 2:01:21.120 --> 2:01:22.880 and where people love each other or people will fight 2:01:22.920 --> 2:01:24.840 for each other, Like that is something that the state 2:01:24.960 --> 2:01:30.200 sees as a threat. And I don't know, I guess 2:01:30.200 --> 2:01:32.400 it's it's it's it's this, it's this weird thing where 2:01:32.440 --> 2:01:36.600 it's like, you know, we like the better world we 2:01:36.680 --> 2:01:40.680 could be living in, Like is is literally being built 2:01:40.840 --> 2:01:42.680 right like you know you can you can you can 2:01:42.720 --> 2:01:44.480 walk down the street and you can see people taking 2:01:44.480 --> 2:01:47.000 care of each other. And then it's like here is 2:01:47.120 --> 2:01:49.160 the state, Who's the only thing that they want to 2:01:49.240 --> 2:01:55.800 do is just make everyone's lives increasingly miserable. It's yeah, 2:01:56.200 --> 2:02:00.960 like is it? Is it? That's hard to just say, Hey, like, 2:02:01.480 --> 2:02:05.960 folks want to be able to just like live. That's it. 2:02:06.200 --> 2:02:07.880 It's all they want to be able to do is 2:02:08.000 --> 2:02:12.440 just like live. They want to be able to work, 2:02:12.680 --> 2:02:14.840 they want to be able to support their family, they 2:02:14.920 --> 2:02:18.080 want to be able to be safe, they want to 2:02:18.160 --> 2:02:21.000 be able to like eat good food and have fun. 2:02:21.560 --> 2:02:27.080 And the state is doing everything but allowing that to 2:02:27.160 --> 2:02:33.120 be and are like mutual aid work is helping folks 2:02:33.240 --> 2:02:38.920 navigate and do as much of that as possible. Yeah, 2:02:39.040 --> 2:02:40.560 I think I think that's a good note to end on, 2:02:40.680 --> 2:02:44.520 unless you have anything else, I don't think so cool. 2:02:44.680 --> 2:02:47.160 Um Okay, so where where can people go to find 2:02:47.200 --> 2:02:48.760 and support this work? And where can they go to 2:02:48.920 --> 2:02:51.720 like give money if they want to or actually help 2:02:51.800 --> 2:02:54.720 volunteer too? If you're in the area. Yeah. So, um, 2:02:55.120 --> 2:03:00.400 we have a link tree that has all of the 2:03:01.320 --> 2:03:03.600 links to support us and all the ways. So if 2:03:03.640 --> 2:03:07.360 you're here in d C and you want to be 2:03:07.480 --> 2:03:10.960 able to support or if you want to donate, Um, 2:03:11.440 --> 2:03:15.440 we have really cool t shirts that we sell that 2:03:15.600 --> 2:03:18.440 say melt Ice that are buying to buy one of 2:03:18.480 --> 2:03:23.720 our volunteers. Um. And so it's the link tree is 2:03:24.120 --> 2:03:27.840 uh like the link tree h slash and d C 2:03:28.600 --> 2:03:33.120 t X Solidarity twenty two And if you follow that link, 2:03:33.320 --> 2:03:38.480 you will be able to um see all about our work. Um, 2:03:39.080 --> 2:03:41.640 you know, get the demands that we have for Mayor Bowser, 2:03:42.240 --> 2:03:46.160 support us in person, financially, whatever it is. All of 2:03:46.240 --> 2:03:48.680 that lives there. And yeah we will. We will put 2:03:48.720 --> 2:03:51.040 the link in the description. So cool. That'd be great. 2:03:51.160 --> 2:03:54.040 I'll make sure you have it. Yeah, thank you, um 2:03:54.240 --> 2:03:56.480 and yeah, thank you, thank you so much for joining us, 2:03:56.920 --> 2:03:59.960 Thank you for having me. Yeah, and this has be naken. 2:04:00.040 --> 2:04:02.720 Happen here, Go help your neighbors and go make the 2:04:02.760 --> 2:04:04.920 state not be able to prevent you from doing that. 2:04:21.720 --> 2:04:26.600 Welcome to it could happen on the internet. The only podcast. 2:04:26.960 --> 2:04:31.240 I'm Robert Evans UM and today we've got St. Andrew 2:04:31.480 --> 2:04:35.040 back in the studio. We don't actually have a studio. 2:04:35.240 --> 2:04:36.760 That was a lie. That was a lie that I 2:04:36.800 --> 2:04:39.960 do think I was cooler, St. Andrew. How are you 2:04:40.000 --> 2:04:44.120 doing today? I am good, I'm good. Andrew dropped the saint. 2:04:44.480 --> 2:04:47.240 Oh shit, I'm sorry. You're right, you're right, You're right. 2:04:47.560 --> 2:04:50.960 We should probably. I'm sorry. That's good because I'm no 2:04:51.040 --> 2:04:55.920 longer a scene. You got to saint? So Okay, if 2:04:55.960 --> 2:05:00.400 I understand Catholicism, right, that means you undid someone Elsi's 2:05:00.480 --> 2:05:06.840 three miracles. I know nothing about Catholicism. Okay, well, I'm 2:05:06.880 --> 2:05:11.160 pretty sure we have the Protestants Protestant ground here. My 2:05:11.320 --> 2:05:13.360 knowledge of Catholicism is that to be a saint, you 2:05:13.440 --> 2:05:15.160 have to do a couple of miracles, but the last 2:05:15.240 --> 2:05:17.640 one has always something to do with being dead, Like 2:05:17.800 --> 2:05:19.960 they just decide that whatever you do when you're a corpse, 2:05:20.000 --> 2:05:25.960 it is like, oh, it's a miracle. Oh Catholicism, Andrew, 2:05:26.720 --> 2:05:30.080 what are we talking about? Um? Today we're gonna be 2:05:30.120 --> 2:05:34.840 talking about something that I would see more traditional Contholicts. 2:05:34.880 --> 2:05:37.920 We have some disagreements with no Christians. We have some 2:05:37.960 --> 2:05:40.360 disagreements with them. That is I mean that is our 2:05:40.680 --> 2:05:46.040 entire audience, is that this this podcast is completely listened 2:05:46.040 --> 2:05:51.120 to by the Pope's Swiss guards on Vodicans. Yeah, we 2:05:51.280 --> 2:05:56.440 we have deep penetration in the Vatican. That's an interesting 2:05:56.520 --> 2:05:58.840 choice of woods considering the end of Pride month, but 2:06:00.000 --> 2:06:05.040 allow it. All right, So, um, yeah, what are we 2:06:05.080 --> 2:06:11.120 talking about. We'll be talking about human evolution, particularly it 2:06:11.200 --> 2:06:16.840 pertains to human cooperation. Okay, the origins of human cooperation. O. Yeah, 2:06:16.880 --> 2:06:19.120 I love this ship. I think that you know, people 2:06:19.160 --> 2:06:24.200 send to emphasize human competition a lot um because capitalism 2:06:24.320 --> 2:06:28.400 wants us to believe that we have these competitive you know, 2:06:28.760 --> 2:06:31.840 dog eat dog. I don't know where that term came from, 2:06:32.080 --> 2:06:34.520 By the way, I've always been curious about that. Um, 2:06:34.680 --> 2:06:37.440 as far as I know, dogs don't eat each other. Um. 2:06:38.440 --> 2:06:41.440 But it's interesting phase and I think it's kind of 2:06:41.480 --> 2:06:45.680 apt here. Um. This is this idea that that that 2:06:45.840 --> 2:06:49.640 we just competing all the time, that we're fighting is 2:06:49.720 --> 2:06:52.440 it's a survival of the fittest, and that only the 2:06:52.480 --> 2:06:55.879 strong survive. You know, when people talk, you know, casually 2:06:55.960 --> 2:07:02.560 about prehistoric times, is this very it represents the stories 2:07:02.640 --> 2:07:05.360 that we've been told about it and as a result, 2:07:05.440 --> 2:07:09.680 it tends to be very you know, competitive, highly patriarchal, 2:07:09.920 --> 2:07:13.360 highly violent, just constant into pus some violence. I mean, 2:07:13.440 --> 2:07:17.440 that was the justification used to you know, reinforce the 2:07:17.560 --> 2:07:20.920 state rights like or the state of nature. It's everybody 2:07:20.960 --> 2:07:25.240 against themselves, and so as a result, you know, the 2:07:25.320 --> 2:07:27.080 state had to be introduced. We treated some of our 2:07:27.120 --> 2:07:30.760 freedoms for the safety that the state is supposed to provide. 2:07:31.640 --> 2:07:35.480 But as far back as Brudon and really even further, 2:07:35.680 --> 2:07:40.640 because let's be real, it's a very European concept. That's 2:07:40.640 --> 2:07:43.840 something that can be protected towards all human societies and 2:07:44.000 --> 2:07:46.480 all human philosophies. UM. But Prudon was one of the 2:07:46.560 --> 2:07:49.680 first white guys, I guess um in his time period 2:07:49.760 --> 2:07:54.960 and in his fields, really challenge that notion with you know, 2:07:55.280 --> 2:07:59.440 mutually a fact of evolution. Of course, the studies and 2:07:59.480 --> 2:08:01.400 stuff that he would have done, the knowledge that he 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:04.600 would have shared upon you know, non un studied by 2:08:04.720 --> 2:08:07.160 people before him, but he was one of the first 2:08:07.240 --> 2:08:10.600 really bring all that knowledge together into one place. UM. 2:08:12.120 --> 2:08:17.800 Years later, Um, an anthropologist and paramatologists, was born. I 2:08:17.880 --> 2:08:20.400 mean she wasn't born that, but she became that later 2:08:20.440 --> 2:08:23.760 in life. In ninety six, that would be Sarah Black 2:08:23.840 --> 2:08:28.680 for her, and so she made many major contributions revolutionary 2:08:28.720 --> 2:08:34.440 psychology and sociology biology, especially pioneering our modern understanding of 2:08:34.520 --> 2:08:38.760 the evolutionary basis of female behavior in both non human 2:08:38.880 --> 2:08:42.880 and human primates. In two thousand two, she was recognized 2:08:42.960 --> 2:08:45.680 as one of the fifth most important women in science 2:08:46.480 --> 2:08:50.680 and in Mothers and Others. Together with her earlier work, 2:08:51.280 --> 2:08:55.840 earned plready the National Academies Award for Scientific Reviewing in 2:08:55.960 --> 2:08:59.440 honor of her insightful and visionary synthesis of a broad 2:08:59.520 --> 2:09:02.000 range of day turn concepts from across the social and 2:09:02.040 --> 2:09:07.680 biological sciences to illuminate the importance of biosocial processes among mothers, 2:09:07.920 --> 2:09:11.800 in funds, and other social actors informing the evolutionary crucible 2:09:11.840 --> 2:09:15.680 of human society. In essence, she got an award because 2:09:16.560 --> 2:09:18.920 she recognized the fact that the relationship between mother and 2:09:19.080 --> 2:09:23.960 child and you know how humans raise their children, Um, 2:09:24.600 --> 2:09:31.200 it's vital in our evolution and in a becoming human. Yeah, 2:09:31.400 --> 2:09:34.880 I mean that's um, Yeah, that's fascinating. I didn't know 2:09:34.920 --> 2:09:38.560 any of that. Yeah, I mean humans, they we we 2:09:38.640 --> 2:09:40.880 do recognize. Now I'm starting to recognize more and more 2:09:41.000 --> 2:09:47.800 parmacto parmatologists at least that um humans I let other 2:09:47.880 --> 2:09:51.040 great apes rather, they do care, they shay, and they 2:09:51.320 --> 2:09:54.920 empathize a lot more than we may have originally thought. 2:09:55.840 --> 2:10:02.040 But humans still when at know the caring competition, I 2:10:02.120 --> 2:10:05.480 think we because of even something I call official and 2:10:05.600 --> 2:10:08.840 not to me um on how we structure society use 2:10:08.960 --> 2:10:12.160 is probably one of the more crusal show of you know, 2:10:12.560 --> 2:10:15.800 the other greed apes. Yeah, it's interesting whenever I because 2:10:15.840 --> 2:10:18.680 obviously I've read stuff about like empathy and apes, but 2:10:18.760 --> 2:10:21.720 it's always in the context of the ones that we 2:10:21.760 --> 2:10:24.520 taught sign language to. The one I'm remembering particularly is 2:10:24.640 --> 2:10:27.919 and I'm I'm spacing on the name that the scientists 2:10:27.960 --> 2:10:30.640 gave her, but one of the apes, yeah, Cocoa, when 2:10:30.920 --> 2:10:34.600 her reaction to like nine eleven um because it was 2:10:34.640 --> 2:10:37.000 apparently like on the TV or some ship wouldn't happened, 2:10:37.040 --> 2:10:41.320 but like I never here emphasized the same degree um 2:10:41.720 --> 2:10:44.320 or you know, maybe I just have not sought it out, 2:10:44.400 --> 2:10:48.360 but it's certainly kind of less uh less discussed as 2:10:48.480 --> 2:10:52.920 like evidence of empathy within um within like the societies 2:10:53.000 --> 2:10:54.800 that they built, I guess like would be the term 2:10:54.920 --> 2:10:57.040 for them. The little their communities, I don't know, whatever 2:10:57.040 --> 2:11:01.280 you wanna call them. Yeah, yeah, I was interesting as well. 2:11:01.360 --> 2:11:04.880 I mean, Coco was a guerrilla and regarding her sign 2:11:04.960 --> 2:11:09.520 language is actually interesting video essay talking about how a 2:11:09.560 --> 2:11:13.120 new NS word sign language. Then we assume, but Coco 2:11:13.240 --> 2:11:16.400 was a guerrilla and humans are were closely related to 2:11:16.520 --> 2:11:21.320 two groups who was being um bunobos and chimpanzees, And 2:11:22.480 --> 2:11:24.520 we tend to look at chimpanzees, which tends to be 2:11:24.720 --> 2:11:29.160 more you know, violent, and people use them as an 2:11:29.160 --> 2:11:31.840 example of all this how humans naturally are despite the 2:11:31.880 --> 2:11:33.280 fact that you know, we have millions of years of 2:11:33.280 --> 2:11:37.480 evolution diverging from chimpanzees. You know, our last common ancestor 2:11:37.680 --> 2:11:40.960 was like six or seven million years ago. Yeah, that 2:11:41.120 --> 2:11:45.040 that's a bit distant. Like yeah, like I got member 2:11:45.840 --> 2:11:48.360 to five or six years and I consider us pretty 2:11:48.400 --> 2:11:53.800 like pretty far apart. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then 2:11:53.840 --> 2:11:56.640 on the top of that, like there was enough time 2:11:56.760 --> 2:12:01.400 for some serious divergences. Is not how you know, like 2:12:02.720 --> 2:12:07.240 the fact that humans, you know, walk up right and 2:12:07.400 --> 2:12:10.480 chimpanzee is they still have you know that that four 2:12:10.600 --> 2:12:16.160 legged gate. It's actually something that I learned recently evolved 2:12:16.200 --> 2:12:19.320 on two separate occasions, that being that particular kind of 2:12:19.440 --> 2:12:24.040 knuckle walk. Um. Yeah, I just want that kind of 2:12:24.120 --> 2:12:28.960 fascinating kind of besides the point, um, but yeah, I mean, 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:31.879 we we tend to look at chimpanzeese as our closest example, 2:12:32.040 --> 2:12:35.680 but nobles which are a lot more social, I would say, 2:12:35.680 --> 2:12:41.040 a lot more cooperative and less violent, and chimpanzees actually 2:12:41.080 --> 2:12:43.080 share a lot of you know, similarities in terms of 2:12:43.440 --> 2:12:45.440 you know, our behavior. And they're also one of the 2:12:46.240 --> 2:12:49.760 few animal species that have been you know, recognized as 2:12:50.280 --> 2:12:54.600 having sex for pleasure and not just procreation, So good 2:12:54.680 --> 2:12:58.280 for them. When we talk about evolution, a lot of 2:12:58.360 --> 2:13:02.600 it has been shaped by dar And even though science 2:13:02.760 --> 2:13:06.760 is not about figures and big figures and their big ideas, 2:13:06.840 --> 2:13:11.720 it's about the ideas themselves. Um. But still, seeing as 2:13:11.800 --> 2:13:15.000 Darwin was the one who really introduced, no, the idea 2:13:15.120 --> 2:13:19.320 of competition, the idea of of all that in evolution, 2:13:20.760 --> 2:13:24.200 those sorts of notions which came really out of his 2:13:24.360 --> 2:13:30.360 time and industrializing competitive woods, um, it really overstates the 2:13:30.480 --> 2:13:36.360 rule of competition as of driving force and evolution, when 2:13:36.400 --> 2:13:42.000 in reality, cooperation was far more potent force when it 2:13:42.080 --> 2:13:45.920 comes to like pro social human tendencies um, you know, 2:13:46.000 --> 2:13:48.520 doing things to benefit others. That's what pro social is. 2:13:50.240 --> 2:13:53.920 Dr Hardie really comes down on the cooperation side of 2:13:54.000 --> 2:13:56.800 things in her book Mothers and Others especially, brings together 2:13:56.840 --> 2:14:00.400 all this evidence that we are basically the sad dounes 2:14:01.080 --> 2:14:03.760 of a place to see in species of corporative breeders. 2:14:04.560 --> 2:14:09.360 Corporative breeding is a practice amongst some animal species UM. 2:14:10.320 --> 2:14:12.400 Other mammals do it, but I think we are one 2:14:12.440 --> 2:14:15.800 of the few. We were were were the only create 2:14:15.840 --> 2:14:19.160 apes to do it, and there are other primates to 2:14:19.200 --> 2:14:21.840 do it, or the monkeys to do it, but none 2:14:22.200 --> 2:14:27.160 closely related to us. Cooperative breeding is basically the practice 2:14:27.280 --> 2:14:34.640 or the reproductive strategy UM where all parental care is 2:14:34.720 --> 2:14:40.000 provided to the offspring of you know, the children of 2:14:40.120 --> 2:14:45.560 cittain parents in the group. Al parental care is basically 2:14:45.680 --> 2:14:53.000 the practice of UM, basically non direct parents care M 2:14:53.160 --> 2:14:55.440 care provided by individuals other than the parents. And so 2:14:57.960 --> 2:15:02.879 by having that network in place, by having the process 2:15:02.880 --> 2:15:04.760 of out parenting in place, that's how we were able 2:15:04.840 --> 2:15:07.680 to be so successful as a species. You know, distribution, 2:15:07.960 --> 2:15:11.880 you know um, you know, establishing ourselves in all these 2:15:11.920 --> 2:15:17.200 different environments because humans spread barely rapidly around the globe, 2:15:17.240 --> 2:15:20.360 and we used to. We've established ourselves and created cultures 2:15:20.400 --> 2:15:25.120 and all sorts of unique environments, and honestly, we are 2:15:25.240 --> 2:15:29.280 the most successful out of the primates in not regard 2:15:29.400 --> 2:15:32.120 so kudus to us um, and that is because of 2:15:32.240 --> 2:15:39.160 corporative breeding. Did you just wou Probert? Yeah, of course, yes, 2:15:39.360 --> 2:15:43.320 like we have to, we have to ratio the rest 2:15:43.360 --> 2:15:46.360 of the primates, you know, very very based on us. 2:15:49.080 --> 2:15:53.640 We literally reassured them, literally were re feeling everything on 2:15:53.720 --> 2:15:57.640 this goddamn planet except for chickens. And no, except for chickens. 2:15:58.960 --> 2:16:04.320 Corn is definitely ratio. Thus, yeah, for sure, for sure 2:16:04.720 --> 2:16:08.240 cows too. Man. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Cows 2:16:08.360 --> 2:16:15.720 chickens on this one. For sure. We have a lot 2:16:15.800 --> 2:16:18.280 of them. Yeah. But I mean there's many different species 2:16:18.320 --> 2:16:22.160 of goods and there's only one species a few months. Yeah, 2:16:22.640 --> 2:16:25.920 you know, I mean, what's the population of dogs? Oh, 2:16:26.000 --> 2:16:29.400 it's actually every time I look, it's less than you'd expect. 2:16:30.880 --> 2:16:36.400 What nine million? Yes, that's ridiculous, less than i'd have expected. 2:16:36.800 --> 2:16:40.920 I want more, give me more. Do millions like rookie 2:16:41.000 --> 2:16:43.680 numbers like I was going to expect, like at least 2:16:43.720 --> 2:16:47.119 a couple of billion just based on but no, just nine. Yeah. 2:16:47.160 --> 2:16:49.600 Every time I look it up, I recall being like, oh, 2:16:49.680 --> 2:16:51.440 there's not as many dogs as I thought there were. 2:16:51.840 --> 2:16:57.200 I guess they would corporative bredas sure not. And only 2:16:57.280 --> 2:17:01.320 four hundred million cats was a rookie numbers cat Come on, cats, 2:17:01.720 --> 2:17:06.760 But it's actually probably I mean, party for the best. 2:17:06.959 --> 2:17:10.920 They do a lot of damage, my dad always says. 2:17:11.040 --> 2:17:13.400 My dad always says that we need more dogs in 2:17:13.440 --> 2:17:16.960 the world to fix the fucked up humans. Yeah, I 2:17:17.000 --> 2:17:19.960 mean I feel a lot of pressure to put on dogs. 2:17:21.520 --> 2:17:25.560 That's completely fair. I feel like that's really our job 2:17:25.720 --> 2:17:29.000 to fix up humans. Yeah, no, no, no, well I 2:17:29.040 --> 2:17:33.560 mean dogs for that. I mean cots and dogs are 2:17:33.600 --> 2:17:35.000 pulling a lot of weights as it is, you know 2:17:35.320 --> 2:17:38.680 they are. What are ferrets doing? Yeah? What a fish doing? 2:17:38.800 --> 2:17:46.200 What are ferrets doing? Andrew ferrets? Fucking ferrets? Yeah? And 2:17:46.360 --> 2:17:48.920 like fucking goldfish? Right, what are you guys? What do 2:17:48.959 --> 2:17:50.680 you what a goldfish? What have they been doing lately? 2:17:50.760 --> 2:17:54.039 Motherfucker's like, get off your asses and stop us from 2:17:54.320 --> 2:17:57.280 killing people. Goldfish, stop the war in Ukraine? Goldfish, Come on, 2:17:57.720 --> 2:17:59.880 I mean to get to cut gold fish. Some slack. 2:18:00.680 --> 2:18:03.560 They're busy dying because people would want to take care 2:18:03.600 --> 2:18:07.280 of them. Yeah. Yeah, they're like all of the people 2:18:07.360 --> 2:18:10.480 treat them like house plants. I didn't think we would 2:18:10.480 --> 2:18:14.400 have Andrew being a goldfish to apologist on this podcast. 2:18:16.120 --> 2:18:18.880 Correct if I'm wrong, But I don't think Cool committed 2:18:18.879 --> 2:18:22.360 any like wool crimes or anything within my rights to 2:18:22.480 --> 2:18:26.160 defend them. They haven't stopped any work crimes either. Plus, 2:18:26.360 --> 2:18:28.000 I mean, this is my police snell kill talking, and 2:18:28.040 --> 2:18:31.760 I've I've you know, I've I've neglected my fair shaff Yeah, 2:18:32.680 --> 2:18:35.560 you know, speaking of cross species cooperation. When I was 2:18:35.840 --> 2:18:38.440 younger and living in Texas, there was this one day 2:18:38.520 --> 2:18:40.760 where like we're out on this in our like fucking 2:18:40.800 --> 2:18:43.920 backyard area, and we see walking through the alley behind 2:18:43.959 --> 2:18:47.720 our houses this massive turtle probably three four pounds, like 2:18:48.000 --> 2:18:51.440 like easily like three or four feet uh in in 2:18:51.720 --> 2:18:54.760 circumference on his shell, just like an enormous animal, just 2:18:54.879 --> 2:18:57.800 like strolling around the neighborhood, not a species that you 2:18:58.520 --> 2:19:01.800 that you see in Texas wild. So we like kind 2:19:01.800 --> 2:19:04.320 of try to corral him. We can't lift him, he's massive, 2:19:04.440 --> 2:19:07.119 but we like corral him into the into our yard area. 2:19:07.160 --> 2:19:09.560 And give him some cucumbers, and eventually his person comes 2:19:09.600 --> 2:19:12.600 around and the guy explains that like, yeah, when teenage 2:19:12.600 --> 2:19:14.520 mimut ninja turtles came out, a lot of people bought 2:19:14.560 --> 2:19:16.560 a bunch of different kinds of turtles, thinking they were 2:19:16.600 --> 2:19:19.040 good pets. But they didn't realize that there's a lot 2:19:19.080 --> 2:19:21.600 of the turtles that get sold like never stopped growing, 2:19:21.800 --> 2:19:23.920 like if you keep them alive, they just keep getting bigger, 2:19:24.320 --> 2:19:28.680 and so he like and they smelled about only if 2:19:28.720 --> 2:19:32.280 they're time. He had adopted this turtle and it lived 2:19:32.280 --> 2:19:35.200 in his yard and he said like, yeah, he's really strong, 2:19:35.520 --> 2:19:37.360 Like I have a good fence, but every two or 2:19:37.400 --> 2:19:39.800 three years he'll just walk through it. Like most of 2:19:39.840 --> 2:19:41.440 the time he chooses to stay in the yard, but 2:19:41.480 --> 2:19:43.840 every couple of years he was, I'm just gonna go 2:19:43.959 --> 2:19:45.520 on a walk and and he's like yeah, he just 2:19:45.600 --> 2:19:47.640 like breaks through the fence. It takes him about a second, 2:19:47.760 --> 2:19:50.600 like if he wants to do it. That's like, I 2:19:50.640 --> 2:19:53.480 don't know if you've seen Baki, have you seen back? No? 2:19:54.640 --> 2:19:58.160 Is this is this me um and no this is 2:19:58.200 --> 2:20:00.320 not my my web coming out story. I have not 2:20:00.480 --> 2:20:04.080 read of you with much in that regard but I 2:20:04.120 --> 2:20:07.680 started back he recently and the first episode they established 2:20:08.520 --> 2:20:11.560 that all these people are coming to Tokyo right for 2:20:11.800 --> 2:20:14.960 like some kind of fighting competition. And the way that 2:20:15.000 --> 2:20:18.320 they established those people as are dangerous is that these 2:20:18.320 --> 2:20:20.840 are all like criminals and like death through and so 2:20:21.080 --> 2:20:23.720 like in the process of being put to death, like 2:20:23.840 --> 2:20:28.320 one person is, you know, being injectives, only one persons 2:20:28.320 --> 2:20:32.000 being electrocuts, being hung, and they all managed to break 2:20:32.160 --> 2:20:36.840 free after they die and like break off the prison easily. 2:20:36.959 --> 2:20:40.560 This one guy, he was imprisoned underwater. He breaks out 2:20:40.680 --> 2:20:45.120 of the underwater prison and swims several miles up to 2:20:45.200 --> 2:20:47.520 the surface and then swims all the way to Tokyo. 2:20:48.200 --> 2:20:51.880 And it's like, for some reason, not to it will 2:20:52.000 --> 2:20:55.560 break it out of his inclusion whenever he chooses. Just 2:20:55.720 --> 2:20:59.520 reminded me of like they're trying to establish his power levels. 2:20:59.720 --> 2:21:04.400 You No, he's he's too powerful to be contained, um. 2:21:04.600 --> 2:21:07.879 And he's probably still alive because they live forever um, 2:21:08.600 --> 2:21:11.960 which is again why they're bad pets. Yeah, because what 2:21:12.040 --> 2:21:15.720 did you do about slavery? Yeah yeah, yeah, well that 2:21:15.840 --> 2:21:17.440 what he may not have been around for slavery, but 2:21:18.320 --> 2:21:19.680 what did you do? What are you going to do 2:21:19.760 --> 2:21:22.000 the next time they're slavery turtle. You know, are you 2:21:22.040 --> 2:21:23.920 gonna stop it? I don't think so. You're a turtle. 2:21:24.560 --> 2:21:27.280 We mean, next time, is this something you should be telling? 2:21:28.360 --> 2:21:33.440 What is attention to the Supreme Court? It's not. Well 2:21:33.560 --> 2:21:38.240 in the future, that's sure, that's sure. What leave the 2:21:38.320 --> 2:21:42.640 turtles out of this? Well if they stop the Supreme Court, 2:21:42.760 --> 2:21:44.600 I will stop shooting on the turtle. Is you're just 2:21:44.720 --> 2:21:48.360 doing that meme from where people were like I gave 2:21:48.480 --> 2:21:51.600 up my plastic straws for the turtles. Where are they now? 2:21:53.320 --> 2:21:55.840 That was a thing. Yeah, it was bad. I don't 2:21:55.840 --> 2:22:00.240 remember that. It's like, come on, just get a well. 2:22:01.879 --> 2:22:05.680 I will say that. I mean, at least for corporative breeders. 2:22:06.760 --> 2:22:10.119 And I think our our tendency of corperative breeding tendency 2:22:10.200 --> 2:22:12.960 probably has something to do with the fact that we 2:22:13.320 --> 2:22:17.520 adopt other species as pets and as members of our family, 2:22:18.280 --> 2:22:21.800 because you don't really see other animals doing that. No, 2:22:22.680 --> 2:22:24.800 you know, um, I think there's there's some kind of 2:22:24.879 --> 2:22:29.360 like fish or crustacean or something that that keeps another 2:22:29.400 --> 2:22:36.279 species like as livestock. Yeah, there's a couple of species 2:22:36.360 --> 2:22:38.920 to do versions of that for sure. Right, But I 2:22:39.000 --> 2:22:44.360 mean we love our dogs and our cats, our ferrets 2:22:44.400 --> 2:22:49.760 and our snakes and our tarantulas and our ferrets questioned goods. Yeah, 2:22:52.240 --> 2:22:55.320 people are trying to like domesticate foxes so we could 2:22:55.360 --> 2:22:58.480 love them too. You know. It's the people they are, 2:22:58.520 --> 2:23:01.720 people who who keep big cats that, people who keep 2:23:01.840 --> 2:23:05.360 like ms, and people who keep all kinds. We just 2:23:06.280 --> 2:23:07.840 you know, it's like we've got to catch them all, 2:23:08.040 --> 2:23:09.600 you know, like we just want to take all these 2:23:09.640 --> 2:23:13.160 creatures and we wanted to love them. I don't know 2:23:13.240 --> 2:23:16.720 that says about us other than the fact that our 2:23:16.800 --> 2:23:22.360 cooperative nature extends beyond the boundaries of you know, us 2:23:22.400 --> 2:23:27.480 as a species. We inhrated very high levels of mutual tolerance, 2:23:27.879 --> 2:23:32.120 of perspective taken and other pro social impulses from ancestors 2:23:32.160 --> 2:23:34.680 who use our parents or care and provisioning of the 2:23:34.720 --> 2:23:41.000 young two survive. I mean, we didn't invent complex corporation. 2:23:41.120 --> 2:23:49.720 Our pre human ancestors did, but we elaborated upon it. Yeah, 2:23:49.959 --> 2:23:52.680 it's um. It's always interesting to me to think about that. 2:23:52.760 --> 2:23:55.320 I think back up to one of the first time 2:23:55.360 --> 2:23:57.480 I ever went to a war zone was Ukraine, and 2:23:57.560 --> 2:23:59.080 it was this We were in this little town called 2:23:59.120 --> 2:24:01.480 of Dificult. It was getting shelled by the Russians, and 2:24:01.560 --> 2:24:03.560 there was this big the way they do the heating 2:24:03.640 --> 2:24:06.640 over there, they have these events going underneath, are these 2:24:06.640 --> 2:24:08.960 tubes going underneath all the houses to supply them with 2:24:09.040 --> 2:24:11.960 like gas and stuff. And there's this this big was 2:24:12.040 --> 2:24:14.640 this big central like kind of box thing and in 2:24:15.040 --> 2:24:17.000 one there's a few of them in the town and 2:24:17.080 --> 2:24:19.400 stuff that like is the I don't know, I guess 2:24:19.440 --> 2:24:24.440 it's like the like nexus of a bunch of different 2:24:24.640 --> 2:24:29.360 houses all whatever heating systems, so it's warm, and the 2:24:29.480 --> 2:24:31.520 people they're like when the war started, a bunch of 2:24:31.560 --> 2:24:34.640 people fled and they left pets behind, you know, sometimes 2:24:34.680 --> 2:24:37.320 they didn't really have a choice because it's war. Um. 2:24:37.440 --> 2:24:39.320 So there were all these cats and dogs, and soon 2:24:39.480 --> 2:24:42.040 all these breeding cats and dogs, all these kittens and puppies, 2:24:42.560 --> 2:24:44.879 and people who lived there had like turned that little 2:24:45.040 --> 2:24:48.400 junction box for the heating system into this like massive 2:24:48.520 --> 2:24:52.560 kind of open air cat and dog sanctuary. So like 2:24:52.680 --> 2:24:54.760 there were all of these like dozens and dozens of 2:24:54.760 --> 2:24:57.160 puppies and kittens just like living together in this big 2:24:57.280 --> 2:25:00.920 heating box. Um. In then the over this like being 2:25:00.959 --> 2:25:02.879 taken care of by all these local ladies who would 2:25:03.000 --> 2:25:05.120 scrounge up food every morning and make sure that they 2:25:05.160 --> 2:25:08.640 were all taken care of. UM. And it was interesting 2:25:08.680 --> 2:25:10.600 because you could see all these like cats and dogs 2:25:11.040 --> 2:25:13.120 living together and all of these people coming together to 2:25:13.200 --> 2:25:16.360 take care of animals they didn't know. UM. At the 2:25:16.400 --> 2:25:18.959 same time, like all of the people were doing their 2:25:19.080 --> 2:25:21.400 level best to murder the folks like a mile and 2:25:21.440 --> 2:25:25.720 a half away and vice versa. UM. So we contain 2:25:25.840 --> 2:25:30.600 multitudes of human beings definitely. I mean that's possible to 2:25:30.760 --> 2:25:34.080 write like the fact that we are sue eager to 2:25:34.240 --> 2:25:39.000 like share another emotional steeds, you know, to empathize and 2:25:39.480 --> 2:25:43.840 do we either we assume eager to involve ourselves and 2:25:44.040 --> 2:25:47.680 and give and share with those who are unrelated to us. 2:25:48.560 --> 2:25:52.000 I mean there are a lot of species that do 2:25:52.120 --> 2:25:54.520 not realise the young at all. Um. And then there 2:25:54.600 --> 2:25:57.440 was the do and try to kill other people's young, 2:25:58.280 --> 2:26:01.000 and there was a two stick care of their own young. 2:26:01.879 --> 2:26:07.640 But you know, we even in this like super individualistic capitalists, 2:26:07.680 --> 2:26:10.280 will we still find ways to look out for each other. 2:26:11.320 --> 2:26:15.360 And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, of course, you know, 2:26:15.720 --> 2:26:19.600 cooperative reading doesn't mean that there's like constant like on 2:26:19.800 --> 2:26:26.000 either dynastore like cooperation and yeah all the time, it 2:26:26.080 --> 2:26:29.879 still can't be competition, which you know, all these different things. Yeah, 2:26:31.879 --> 2:26:40.160 but behaviorally, anatomically, and emotionally modern humans cooperative breeders. And 2:26:40.240 --> 2:26:44.320 the crazy part is those you know, three um traits 2:26:44.360 --> 2:26:46.960 you know, behavior and not to be in an emotion, 2:26:47.720 --> 2:26:53.560 Those illustrats not evolved simultaneously. So for example, of physical 2:26:53.680 --> 2:26:56.040 features like our eyes and the fact that our eyes 2:26:56.240 --> 2:26:59.000 are are able to you know, we can see the 2:26:59.040 --> 2:27:02.760 whites and our eyes and that way we can put 2:27:02.800 --> 2:27:05.240 ourselves in other people's perspectives and that kind of thing, 2:27:05.320 --> 2:27:07.840 we could see the emotions more clearly. You know, the 2:27:07.879 --> 2:27:11.760 fact that we we were prone to sharing our smiles, 2:27:12.440 --> 2:27:17.840 and the fact that, um, you know, our vocal courts 2:27:17.879 --> 2:27:20.240 have such range to be able to communicate to many 2:27:20.280 --> 2:27:26.280 different things. Um. While these are hallmarks of the fact 2:27:26.360 --> 2:27:33.320 that you know, even before our super big brains developed, 2:27:34.320 --> 2:27:36.720 we already getting these treats that would have helped us 2:27:36.920 --> 2:27:41.400 in cooperation. But I wanted a lot of time though, 2:27:41.680 --> 2:27:43.199 because you know, a lot of the shapes we developed 2:27:43.240 --> 2:27:47.480 before language. Um, it's like what was the first word 2:27:47.640 --> 2:27:50.960 of humanity? You know what was the first sentence? What 2:27:51.080 --> 2:27:54.640 was the first thing like we said? And how did 2:27:54.680 --> 2:27:59.200 other people react when the person said it. I can 2:27:59.280 --> 2:28:04.280 imagine that, you know, like agriculture, something that's developed independently, um, 2:28:04.640 --> 2:28:10.199 multiple different occasions in different places. But I still wonder, 2:28:10.560 --> 2:28:15.680 like what those foost conversations might have been avoked. Yeah, 2:28:15.720 --> 2:28:17.560 I mean I think a lot of them probably would 2:28:17.560 --> 2:28:19.959 have been arguments with other people who didn't want us 2:28:20.000 --> 2:28:25.520 to do words. UM who will ultimately right, you know 2:28:26.240 --> 2:28:32.360 if if only Yeah, I don't know, it's interesting, Like 2:28:32.480 --> 2:28:35.480 I think it probably like we we just did a 2:28:35.520 --> 2:28:40.560 couple of episodes about the history of of of gynecology UM, 2:28:40.959 --> 2:28:42.760 and one of the things that we talked about at 2:28:42.800 --> 2:28:46.080 the start was like the prehistory of medicine, which which 2:28:46.240 --> 2:28:50.039 likely began in an organized way UM by like likely 2:28:50.080 --> 2:28:53.320 the first people practicing medicine in any way, we're pregnant 2:28:53.360 --> 2:28:55.480 women and women who had been pregnant trying to help 2:28:55.520 --> 2:28:59.080 each other survive pregnancy, right, UM. And I wouldn't be 2:28:59.160 --> 2:29:02.000 surprised if at I mean, food gathering is obviously the 2:29:02.040 --> 2:29:04.480 other one, but I wouldn't be surprised if like language 2:29:04.480 --> 2:29:08.000 started as a way to try and like communicate and 2:29:08.560 --> 2:29:14.640 better survive making babies because it's it's like super dangerous 2:29:14.680 --> 2:29:19.000 and also entirely necessary um and and something that kind 2:29:19.040 --> 2:29:22.400 of particularly benefits from communication. So I don't know, I 2:29:22.400 --> 2:29:24.440 wouldn't be shocked if that was like the first thing 2:29:24.520 --> 2:29:29.240 we talked about, so to speak. Mm hmm, that makes sense. 2:29:30.240 --> 2:29:32.440 But I'm also thinking as well, and it just occurred 2:29:32.480 --> 2:29:36.840 to me it's pretty possible like that the first language 2:29:36.959 --> 2:29:40.680 was not spoken language. I feel like it may have 2:29:40.800 --> 2:29:44.080 been like a form of sign language, you know, because 2:29:44.200 --> 2:29:47.080 you know, we have these hands, and people tend to 2:29:47.160 --> 2:29:50.200 talk with their hands, so yeah, oh yes, I think 2:29:50.320 --> 2:29:53.200 hypothesis is that, you know, we use the hands to 2:29:53.240 --> 2:29:57.840 communicate things before we started speaking. I mean, the fact 2:29:57.840 --> 2:30:01.240 that we were able to teach apes, you know, other 2:30:01.320 --> 2:30:05.000 apes to use sign language, I think that's a good 2:30:05.080 --> 2:30:09.640 sign that we can lead to communicate with that face. Yeah, 2:30:10.040 --> 2:30:13.199 I mean, it's also you know, probably how our communication 2:30:13.280 --> 2:30:15.560 with dogs started, because that's one of the things that 2:30:15.640 --> 2:30:18.160 makes them special is they're pretty much alone in animals 2:30:18.200 --> 2:30:21.080 and that they like and kind of instinctively grow up 2:30:21.360 --> 2:30:24.040 understanding that when we gesture at them it means stuff 2:30:24.080 --> 2:30:27.119 like if you point dogs will look where you're pointing 2:30:27.160 --> 2:30:29.000 a lot of the time rather than at you, which 2:30:29.080 --> 2:30:31.320 is like a rare trait in animals. So yeah, I 2:30:31.360 --> 2:30:34.880 think you're probably right on the money there. Huh. I 2:30:34.879 --> 2:30:38.480 didn't even think about that. That's true. That's true. And 2:30:38.560 --> 2:30:40.240 of course that makes it fun because you could always 2:30:40.280 --> 2:30:46.560 fake them out and throw something stupid to do. Yeah. Yeah, 2:30:46.879 --> 2:30:50.560 and does fall for that ship So I love she 2:30:50.640 --> 2:30:52.560 does not fall for that. I can't fake her. I 2:30:52.600 --> 2:30:55.600 can't fake her out. That's probably why she's the woman 2:30:55.640 --> 2:30:58.880 of the host. I'm you're all wrong pretending to throw 2:30:59.200 --> 2:31:01.920 stuff at a dog and then it goes running and 2:31:02.000 --> 2:31:04.440 then it realizes that you faked it, Like that's the best. 2:31:05.600 --> 2:31:07.760 I can't relate because if I try to do that, 2:31:07.840 --> 2:31:12.279 she looks at me like a good try. Uh huh, Okay, Sophie. 2:31:12.320 --> 2:31:15.400 Where you need to go is corgy Con in San Francisco. 2:31:15.440 --> 2:31:18.720 One of these years will they let Anderson? And even 2:31:18.760 --> 2:31:23.120 though she's only she does she's only party. There's nothing 2:31:23.160 --> 2:31:27.480 but acceptance of corgy Con acceptance and hundreds of corgies 2:31:27.560 --> 2:31:30.440 frolicking in the surf. It rules. She'll try to hurt 2:31:30.480 --> 2:31:34.000 them all. Yeah, they are all trying to hurt all 2:31:34.040 --> 2:31:39.160 of them into it. They are all very excited and 2:31:39.240 --> 2:31:41.120 don't know what to do with each other. It moves 2:31:42.680 --> 2:31:46.560 so as the book progresses, Hotty spend some time talking 2:31:46.600 --> 2:31:50.400 about how we are similar to and different from other 2:31:50.560 --> 2:31:55.520 greed EAPs, tweeling about how we use eye contact and 2:31:55.640 --> 2:32:00.200 smiles to bond even from a young age. Um, you hm, 2:32:00.959 --> 2:32:03.320 we people we've be tend to hear about it. But 2:32:03.600 --> 2:32:09.160 the fact that babies cries are so attuned towards attention 2:32:09.560 --> 2:32:16.240 and capturing the attention of people, Um, these are all 2:32:16.600 --> 2:32:21.720 in like basterds. Yeah, yeah, I mean I was. I 2:32:21.800 --> 2:32:25.080 was a screamer. Apparently I used to real real ball, 2:32:26.480 --> 2:32:29.400 ball and ball and ball. In fact, one story I 2:32:29.520 --> 2:32:31.840 was told was that the neighbor called and was like 2:32:32.280 --> 2:32:34.680 something happening to Andrew, and my parents were like, nah, 2:32:34.760 --> 2:32:38.199 he's just grand. There's like three o'clock in the morning. 2:32:42.520 --> 2:32:45.760 But I mean, look at me now, I'm balling for justice, 2:32:46.120 --> 2:32:55.400 that's right. Yeah. One interesting treat that you know humans 2:32:55.480 --> 2:32:59.760 have is all willingness to like share our babies with others, 2:33:00.600 --> 2:33:03.160 other grade apes. You know, those mothers. They tend to 2:33:03.200 --> 2:33:06.280 have like constant contact and care with their children, you know, 2:33:06.400 --> 2:33:09.040 like they don't let others touch their children at all, 2:33:09.800 --> 2:33:13.640 probably because like other mothers tend to want to kill 2:33:13.720 --> 2:33:17.320 their kids or of course harm to their kids, they 2:33:17.400 --> 2:33:20.080 tend to be very protective of them. Whereas you know, 2:33:20.320 --> 2:33:22.600 as all parents, we are you know, full of fledged 2:33:22.760 --> 2:33:26.760 cooperative readers. You know, we have not only shared our 2:33:26.840 --> 2:33:30.720 young with others, but al paar intervals have been been 2:33:30.800 --> 2:33:34.680 recorded breastfeeding the young of others, you know, and and 2:33:35.120 --> 2:33:39.160 masticating and passing like hard to digest foods to infunts. 2:33:43.240 --> 2:33:45.360 I'm mixing up my terms a bit in terms of 2:33:45.560 --> 2:33:47.680 you know, what what is a primate and what isn't 2:33:48.120 --> 2:33:53.360 ape versus what is you know, just whatever. But mamosets 2:33:53.400 --> 2:33:58.720 and tamarins which are colored strike kids or calatressids colortry kids, 2:34:00.120 --> 2:34:03.600 they are also corporative breeders and they're very fast breeders 2:34:03.640 --> 2:34:09.080 as well, rapid rapid breeders. Um, so you know, good 2:34:09.120 --> 2:34:11.360 for them. It's also typical of our species. We tend 2:34:11.400 --> 2:34:14.480 to be very fast breeders, and that's why we reshoot 2:34:14.520 --> 2:34:18.760 all the other great tapes. What I find interesting as 2:34:18.800 --> 2:34:21.480 well is that we'll be able to breed so rapidly 2:34:21.520 --> 2:34:25.960 despite the fact that our um do you'll remember um 2:34:26.120 --> 2:34:29.920 the word for like carrying a child. I'm just blacking 2:34:30.040 --> 2:34:34.000 right now, Gregors. No, no, no, I think you're you're 2:34:34.040 --> 2:34:36.800 thinking of the incubation period. Is that what we're trying 2:34:36.800 --> 2:34:40.800 to think of. Yeah, but that's such a that that 2:34:40.840 --> 2:34:45.120 feels like a very the humanizing way of witness. Yeah, 2:34:46.240 --> 2:34:49.560 I'll just say that carrying a baby, you know, and 2:34:50.280 --> 2:34:55.960 the costs because on you know, woman's body, on humans body, Um, 2:34:56.480 --> 2:34:59.040 it is like a whole thing. It's a whole thing. Yeah. 2:34:59.280 --> 2:35:01.120 And if we keep will have ha been so many 2:35:01.360 --> 2:35:04.600 in one lifetime despite the cost necessary to raise each 2:35:04.600 --> 2:35:09.199 I mean other animals they have like meets and seasons 2:35:09.360 --> 2:35:12.879 and you know, they have set amounts of children they 2:35:12.920 --> 2:35:16.720 could have in their lifetime. But no, mm hm, you 2:35:16.760 --> 2:35:18.960 know we could just I mean, they're their stories of 2:35:19.200 --> 2:35:23.560 women who have had like dozens of kids, which is 2:35:23.800 --> 2:35:27.120 you know, unfortunate circumstances because you know, in those cases 2:35:27.200 --> 2:35:32.880 it tends to be um, not necessarily willing. But the 2:35:32.959 --> 2:35:36.360 fact that we are capable of having many kids is 2:35:37.920 --> 2:35:42.440 lends towards the importance of having support systems in place. 2:35:42.879 --> 2:35:46.440 Because other animals don't tend to have more children they 2:35:46.480 --> 2:35:49.640 can care for if that is you know, the care 2:35:49.720 --> 2:35:51.960 for children. A lot of them just eat their kids 2:35:52.040 --> 2:35:55.520 if they can't care for them exactly. Can't do that once, 2:35:56.560 --> 2:36:02.560 you know, makes sense, Yeah, whereas we kind of evolved 2:36:02.600 --> 2:36:06.560 to have support systems in placement, speaking of eating babies, 2:36:06.720 --> 2:36:10.160 kind of there kind of is a dark side to that, 2:36:10.680 --> 2:36:14.800 um because even though we tend to have you know, 2:36:14.840 --> 2:36:17.920 these children and stuff, and we tend to were supposed 2:36:17.920 --> 2:36:21.000 to have these support networks to care for them, the 2:36:21.120 --> 2:36:25.200 practice of infanticide is actually something that has a long 2:36:26.080 --> 2:36:33.160 long history UM in human practice, where if a mother 2:36:33.320 --> 2:36:37.480 determines that they're not able to raise their child, they 2:36:37.520 --> 2:36:41.360 don't have the support systems in place to care for 2:36:41.440 --> 2:36:49.000 that child. Different practices would typically be used to you know, 2:36:50.280 --> 2:36:55.080 deal with that child. And that's of course what makes 2:36:56.840 --> 2:37:04.640 the anti abortion stances um soon inhumane, you know, because Yeah, 2:37:05.640 --> 2:37:09.600 the whole reason we that abortion is so um important 2:37:09.720 --> 2:37:12.960 is because it protects the you know, the autonomy and 2:37:13.200 --> 2:37:17.200 the agency of you know, people who can carry children. 2:37:17.959 --> 2:37:23.960 And yet in this will it continues to atomize us 2:37:24.040 --> 2:37:27.920 and individualize us and separate us um you know, shipping 2:37:27.959 --> 2:37:29.960 some people of their support networks, so we can in 2:37:30.040 --> 2:37:35.720 our support networks. It's still expected to and punished heavily 2:37:35.800 --> 2:37:40.840 if you do not just pump out as many children 2:37:40.920 --> 2:37:44.480 as you can. And it's it's sick, it's really sick. Yeah, 2:37:44.600 --> 2:37:48.039 that's not great when it comes to those support networks. 2:37:48.680 --> 2:37:53.480 Most people are familiar with, you know, extended family like 2:37:53.680 --> 2:37:58.280 for example, grand appearance UM and I fact, an infant 2:37:58.280 --> 2:38:03.280 survival is significantly affected by a grandmother's presence, which is 2:38:03.360 --> 2:38:11.760 why humans tend to live long past their reproductively viable period. 2:38:12.280 --> 2:38:15.760 You know, human females live after menopause for pretty long 2:38:15.840 --> 2:38:22.240 time in commarison to other species, and of course their 2:38:22.280 --> 2:38:28.920 grandmothers and there of course fathers. UM. There are sisters 2:38:29.120 --> 2:38:32.760 and god parents and really a lot of other um 2:38:33.840 --> 2:38:41.000 cultural systems in place, even polyandrous meeting UM. I think 2:38:41.040 --> 2:38:44.320 I mentioned that in the previous in the previous episode. 2:38:46.080 --> 2:38:52.039 There are also forms of like bilocal flexible residents patterns 2:38:52.360 --> 2:38:54.879 where you know, you always have kin around to take 2:38:54.920 --> 2:39:02.320 care of your infants. And I would say that it's 2:39:02.560 --> 2:39:06.560 it's kind of tough because a lot of people these days, 2:39:09.040 --> 2:39:12.560 you know, struggled with the extended families. Um, it's very 2:39:12.640 --> 2:39:18.440 much cool. Um, I love you, but I'm glad we 2:39:18.520 --> 2:39:21.560 live in separate kind of situation, you know, Like extended 2:39:21.600 --> 2:39:24.240 families definitely have a lot of proves and cons um 2:39:24.840 --> 2:39:27.840 which is why we actually find I think interesting in 2:39:27.840 --> 2:39:34.560 a lot of examples of chosen families throughout different societies, 2:39:34.560 --> 2:39:38.200 and also even there's some evidence that that might have 2:39:38.320 --> 2:39:41.040 in the case in the past as well, where unrelated 2:39:41.080 --> 2:39:48.560 people would form groups together um. As one example, I 2:39:48.640 --> 2:39:52.640 remember reading about, of course this can't necessarily extended to 2:39:52.959 --> 2:39:56.280 prehistoric times, but I've seen it in multiple different hunter 2:39:56.360 --> 2:40:01.240 gatherer situations. But um, where we have this this clan 2:40:01.360 --> 2:40:06.280 system in place, um, and you can not so how 2:40:06.360 --> 2:40:09.520 far you travel, you can expect to receive care for 2:40:09.680 --> 2:40:12.640 members of your clan. UM. In North America, I think 2:40:12.680 --> 2:40:14.520 it was like the Beer clan and the Elk Plan 2:40:14.600 --> 2:40:20.400 and all these different plans UM. In Aboriginal Australia, they 2:40:20.400 --> 2:40:22.920 ablso have different groups as well, and so people were 2:40:22.920 --> 2:40:25.840 able to interrupt with each other across huge distances and 2:40:26.320 --> 2:40:29.040 set them in different places and connect with others to 2:40:29.120 --> 2:40:35.360 find kin you really necessarily directly related. Yeah, there's a 2:40:35.400 --> 2:40:37.080 couple I mean there's a there's a book called sets 2:40:37.120 --> 2:40:39.520 It On that I read many many years ago that's 2:40:39.520 --> 2:40:42.040 about kind of like the evolution of human sexuality and 2:40:42.120 --> 2:40:44.760 how some of it's been like how different cultures have 2:40:44.879 --> 2:40:48.560 looked at things like like what makes someone apparent UM, 2:40:48.920 --> 2:40:51.400 And there's all these different attitudes, Like before we had 2:40:51.480 --> 2:40:54.280 kind of the scientific understanding of like where you know, 2:40:54.480 --> 2:40:58.200 how how babies are conceived um, that we have now 2:40:58.320 --> 2:41:01.720 there were all these different attitudes this idea and I 2:41:01.840 --> 2:41:05.440 forget the name of the people who, but they still 2:41:05.480 --> 2:41:08.080 exist with somewhere in Latin America, and their their their 2:41:08.120 --> 2:41:12.800 belief was essentially that when you got someone pregnant, that 2:41:12.959 --> 2:41:17.440 was the start of the process, and then after like conception, 2:41:18.040 --> 2:41:22.760 the person with the baby would go around and yes, yes, 2:41:23.000 --> 2:41:25.199 I remember that woman for the baby, and the idea 2:41:25.280 --> 2:41:27.120 was that like, well, yeah, when they fucked, that person's 2:41:27.680 --> 2:41:30.080 like essence gets added to this forming child. And one 2:41:30.080 --> 2:41:31.880 of the things that that does socially is it means 2:41:31.959 --> 2:41:35.400 that it means that for that community, UM, children weren't 2:41:35.400 --> 2:41:37.200 seen as having one father. They're seen as having a 2:41:37.240 --> 2:41:39.480 bunch of fathers, all of whom were like responsible for 2:41:39.600 --> 2:41:41.560 teaching the kid and raising it, which is like, oh, 2:41:41.680 --> 2:41:45.320 that's a very sensible way to, uh, to organize your 2:41:45.320 --> 2:41:48.800 little society is to is to is to ensure that like, 2:41:49.280 --> 2:41:52.720 the kids coming up have as many adults who are 2:41:52.800 --> 2:41:55.760 like responsible for them as possible, which is, broadly speaking, 2:41:56.600 --> 2:41:58.040 the best thing you can do for kids is to 2:41:58.120 --> 2:42:00.160 have a bunch of adults be interested in their their 2:42:00.400 --> 2:42:05.720 their their success exactly because I mean, like, if you 2:42:05.840 --> 2:42:09.160 have like one of the best hunters in the village 2:42:09.200 --> 2:42:11.519 raised in your child, and you have the best craftsman 2:42:11.560 --> 2:42:13.440 of the villageries in your child, and you have the 2:42:13.520 --> 2:42:15.680 best fisher villageries and child, that child is gonna have 2:42:15.680 --> 2:42:18.240 a very well rounded education. You know, it's going to 2:42:18.280 --> 2:42:19.880 be able to learn a lot of different skills that 2:42:20.160 --> 2:42:23.160 they're going to need. I mean, that's just one of 2:42:23.320 --> 2:42:27.200 the many positive effects of having multiple care givers. The 2:42:27.280 --> 2:42:30.640 development of a child's world view and sense of self, 2:42:30.800 --> 2:42:34.279 their concept of self and others, their concept of empathy, 2:42:35.000 --> 2:42:39.440 the concept of independence, how they how they view the 2:42:39.480 --> 2:42:44.880 world as either dangerous or insecure or giving and welcoming, 2:42:46.640 --> 2:42:49.040 and so I mean, we are so used to this 2:42:49.440 --> 2:42:55.320 nuclear family world view, which is these independent um households 2:42:56.080 --> 2:43:00.440 that we don't consider the fact that having a broad 2:43:00.600 --> 2:43:05.080 range of people raising them is actually crucial to their 2:43:05.240 --> 2:43:11.400 personal development as children, to the human development really having 2:43:11.400 --> 2:43:15.240 all those different perspectives and stuff in place. And I mean, 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:19.560 that's part of what Pretty talks about, especially in her 2:43:19.600 --> 2:43:28.440 final chapter, that being how in modern times, the accumulation 2:43:28.560 --> 2:43:34.720 of property um, the emergence of patriarchy um, even the 2:43:34.760 --> 2:43:38.240 stuff in the post industrial era, all of these would 2:43:38.280 --> 2:43:43.200 prompt to shift from cooperative breeding, from cooperation between groups, 2:43:43.800 --> 2:43:47.600 two war between groups, especially with property, because when you 2:43:47.680 --> 2:43:51.400 have property, you have a need to hold onswer property. 2:43:51.879 --> 2:43:57.240 And the whole idea of property is you and yours, 2:43:57.320 --> 2:44:04.760 the exclusion of all others, right, you know. And so 2:44:05.920 --> 2:44:08.680 at the end of her book, she also speculates we 2:44:08.800 --> 2:44:13.720 might be losing our art of nurture because we are 2:44:13.920 --> 2:44:18.800 continually evolving um. But she wonders what might be potential 2:44:18.840 --> 2:44:22.360 evolutionary effects we if we're wearing children who are not 2:44:22.520 --> 2:44:26.640 living in internet contact with a variety of caregivers, because 2:44:26.800 --> 2:44:30.480 especially within those first two years of life, influence rate 2:44:30.600 --> 2:44:35.000 and responsible care taking relationships developed in their potentials for empathy, 2:44:35.680 --> 2:44:40.600 mind reading, and cooperation and collaboration. I mean, these behaviors 2:44:40.720 --> 2:44:44.960 are the outcome of complex interactions between both genes and nurture. 2:44:45.840 --> 2:44:50.640 The question is, how can these in their potentials remain 2:44:52.520 --> 2:44:55.439 more than potentials, you know, I mean, because the development 2:44:55.520 --> 2:44:59.000 of them is far from guaranteed. A lot of children 2:44:59.040 --> 2:45:03.760 these days are raised without extensive social contact. UM. I mean, 2:45:03.800 --> 2:45:06.879 even in the year of COVID, where all children are 2:45:06.879 --> 2:45:10.800 isolated at home, especially the heights of pandemic. I really 2:45:10.879 --> 2:45:15.800 wonder if we will see like a Mark at like 2:45:16.160 --> 2:45:20.680 distinct generation of like within a range of two years 2:45:21.920 --> 2:45:29.400 of children who just aren't as socialized because for those 2:45:29.440 --> 2:45:32.320 first two years of their life they were kind of isolated. Well, 2:45:32.400 --> 2:45:34.560 those first few years, they're like, they're kind of isolated 2:45:35.680 --> 2:45:41.480 because there's this lack of empathy, lack of corporative skills, 2:45:41.640 --> 2:45:48.840 and lack of attachment that may cause it's Mr Mark, 2:45:49.040 --> 2:45:53.480 It's it's really trauma. Um. But trauma doesn't necessarily stop 2:45:53.520 --> 2:45:58.360 people from continuing that drauma, from reproducing and carrying that on. 2:45:58.640 --> 2:46:00.440 And so I really I'm really curious us to see 2:46:00.440 --> 2:46:03.040 what the effects that might be and also what we 2:46:03.120 --> 2:46:08.160 can do to try to um cube that negative impact. 2:46:12.160 --> 2:46:17.440 The last question she asked is, really will humans in 2:46:17.520 --> 2:46:22.520 the future still be empathetic and curious and about the 2:46:22.560 --> 2:46:25.720 emotions of others because of our ancient heritage. Can you 2:46:25.760 --> 2:46:30.120 not care I'm paraphrasing here, or will these systems that 2:46:30.280 --> 2:46:38.640 we have in place evolve us in the more Marcafellion direction. Well, 2:46:38.720 --> 2:46:41.360 I guess that's the mystery that we're all going to 2:46:41.440 --> 2:46:44.600 get to watch unfold in pieces, at least over the 2:46:44.680 --> 2:46:46.880 course of you know, the rest of our lives and 2:46:46.959 --> 2:46:51.000 everyone else's lives. It is, I don't know. I I 2:46:51.640 --> 2:46:55.680 think the overall arch of it speaks more to the 2:46:55.800 --> 2:46:59.400 things that about us that are good into increasing cooperation, 2:46:59.560 --> 2:47:03.320 because that is like the story of the last couple 2:47:03.440 --> 2:47:06.000 hundred thousand years of human evolution, although at the same 2:47:06.080 --> 2:47:09.880 time some of that a lot of that cooperation has 2:47:09.959 --> 2:47:13.200 gone towards fucked up ends as well. Like, I mean, 2:47:13.280 --> 2:47:15.680 all of the good and the bad things happening right 2:47:15.720 --> 2:47:18.800 now are are one way or the other examples of cooperation, right, 2:47:19.000 --> 2:47:25.960 Like it's it's, uh, yeah, I don't know, let's help 2:47:26.040 --> 2:47:30.400 things get better. So I think we could do more 2:47:30.480 --> 2:47:35.400 than hoope, I think we can act. Yeah, We're going 2:47:35.480 --> 2:47:37.360 to have I mean, like that's the thing, right like 2:47:37.480 --> 2:47:40.760 part of how specifically in the United States, I mean, 2:47:40.920 --> 2:47:44.080 but internationally to the right has gotten so much over 2:47:44.160 --> 2:47:47.240 the last really five or six years in particular, is 2:47:48.000 --> 2:47:52.840 cooperation across borders and across like ideological differences. Like there's 2:47:53.080 --> 2:47:57.160 there has been like tremendous sustained cooperation that has allowed 2:47:57.200 --> 2:48:00.920 them to amass power, the power that they're early exercising. 2:48:00.959 --> 2:48:02.760 And the only thing that's going to actually counter that 2:48:03.680 --> 2:48:07.160 is the cooperation um an organization if a much larger 2:48:07.240 --> 2:48:09.560 amount of people, Like there's not that many of those folks, 2:48:09.600 --> 2:48:11.920 that's why they've had to be so organized. There's a 2:48:12.000 --> 2:48:15.680 lot more of us. But we're also can't stop fighting 2:48:15.720 --> 2:48:18.080 about ship. So it is it is like we are 2:48:18.120 --> 2:48:21.279 going to have to evolve in real time to cooperate 2:48:21.360 --> 2:48:23.640 better with one another and more effectively in order to 2:48:23.879 --> 2:48:32.199 in order to wrench the wheel back. That's true. M hm. Anyway, 2:48:32.600 --> 2:48:37.000 that's not lose uh And let's not lose your plug, 2:48:37.040 --> 2:48:41.640 Dobles Andrew. Yes, you can follow me on Twitter. I 2:48:41.640 --> 2:48:44.840 don't disclose seem true. I'm finding me on YouTube and 2:48:45.000 --> 2:48:50.160 truism hell yeah, hell yeah. Well, folks, that's gonna be 2:48:50.240 --> 2:48:52.720 all for us here today. That It could Happen Here 2:48:53.320 --> 2:49:00.400 until next time, Go happen somewhere else. Hey, we'll be 2:49:00.440 --> 2:49:03.760 back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 2:49:03.800 --> 2:49:06.280 the heat death of the Universe. It could Happen Here 2:49:06.360 --> 2:49:08.960 is a production of cool Zone Media. 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