1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to it 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: could happen here. I'm your host today. It's Sharine Um 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be flying solo for the next 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: few episodes. We're going to be talking about Syria. Spoiler alert. 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: I am Syrian and I think there's a lot of 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: history and news about Syria that really goes under the 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: radar and not a lot of people know about. So 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: I thought it would be important to shed some light 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: about how Syria became ruled by a dictatorship. Family. Um, 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: the Assad family have destroyed Syria. Imagine a country being 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: run by the mafia. They're very powerful, very secretive, very 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: very rich. There are no numbers that can illustrate the 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: scale of Syria's loss and destruction. Literally, because the United 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: Nations hasn't been able to calculate the death toll for years. So, 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, these episodes are going to be about Syria. 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: The first two will be about how hop Is said 24 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: rose to power, which has since led the Assad family 25 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: to have control over Syria for more than half a century. 26 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: And then the one following that will be about his 27 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: son Basha, who is the current dictator of Syria, and 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: that one will have more topical information, maybe more like 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: economic stuff versus historical information, which we're going to start with. 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: But I think understanding the history of the Syrian government 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: provides vital context to understanding the present. And there is 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: a lot to cover here and a lot that I 33 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: won't be able to get to, but hopefully we can 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: chip away at it. And this is a good semi 35 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: coherent summary of how hof has climbed his way to 36 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: the very top of Syrian authority. So the Assads in Arabic, 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: it's as said, So apologize if I go back and 38 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: forth between those two. But they're from Kardaja, originally a 39 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: village in northwest Syria in the Syrial coastal mountains. The 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: family name said goes back to seven when Nili Sulayman, 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: who was Hafs father, changed his last name to which 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: is Arabic for the Lion. People say this is possibly 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: in connection to his social standing as a local mediator 44 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: and his political activities. All members of the extended Assad 45 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: family stem from Ali sulai Men and his second wife, Nissa. 46 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: The Assads are Shia Muslims, more specifically, of the Allohite sect. 47 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Allo Whites are a religious minority, and they initially opposed 48 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: a United Syrian state because they thought their status as 49 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 1: a religious minority would endanger them and Half as his father, 50 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: he shared this belief. After the French left Syria in 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: ninety six, many Syrians mistrusted the Allo Whites because of 52 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: their alignment with France. Half Has eventually left his Allo 53 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: White village. Beginning his education at age nine in Latakia, 54 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: which had a Sunni majority, he became the first of 55 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: his family to attend high school, and while he was 56 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: an education he lived in a poor, predominantly Allo White 57 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: part of Attackia. To fit in, he approached political parties 58 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: that welcomed Allo Whites. These parties, which also embraced secularism, 59 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: worthy Syrian Communist Party, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: s s MP and the Arab Bath Party. Bath is 61 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: biath in Arabic, but we know it as both spell 62 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: be a apostrophe a t h in English, and he 63 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: joined this political party in ninety six. Some of his 64 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: friends belonged to the s s NP and the Bath 65 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: Party embraced a pan Arabist socialist ideology, and he proved 66 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: to be an asset to the party. He organized Bath 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: students seals, and he carried out the party's message to 68 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: poor sections of Attakia and two Alloway villages. He was 69 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: opposed by the Muslim Brotherhood, which at the time allied 70 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: itself with wealthy and conservative Muslim families. Asad's high school 71 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: accommodated students from rich and poor families, and he was 72 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: joined by poor, anti establishment Sunny Muslim youth from the 73 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: Bath Party and confrontations with students from wealthy Brotherhood families. 74 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: He made many Sunny friends and some of whom later 75 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: became his political allies. While he was still a teenager, 76 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: Asad became increasingly prominent in the party as an organizer 77 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: and a recruiter, and he was the head of his 78 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: school's student affairs committee from to one and he was 79 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: also the president of the Union of Syrian Students. During 80 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: his political activism in school, he met many men who 81 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,119 Speaker 1: would later serve him when he became president. And reading 82 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: about this, I mean, I'll be honest, and I learned 83 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: a lot even preparing for these episodes. It's so interesting 84 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: because you read about this man and on the surface, 85 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: he seems not too bad when he started out, Like 86 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: his ideas aren't terrible. I think power eventually corrupts everybody, 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: and I just have so many questions and thoughts about 88 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: how someone becomes evil. I mean, that's such a blanket, 89 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: like maybe like make believe way to describe someone. But 90 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: the things that the Sad family eventually does is horrific. 91 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to see where this man started as 92 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: a child as a teenager. On one hand, it humanizes him. 93 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: On the other hand, it just shows how much he 94 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: had changed um and maybe he was always this way 95 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: and it's just on paper doesn't seem so bad. I 96 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: don't know, Sorry, Tangent, Let's continue. So after he graduated 97 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: from high school, as Sad aspired to be a medical doctor, 98 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: but his father could not pay for his studies, so instead, 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty he decided to join the Syrian armed forces. 100 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: He entered the military Academy in Plumps and the Flying 101 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: school in Aleppo, and then he graduated ninety five, after 102 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: which he was commissioned a lieutenant of the Syrian Air Force. 103 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: He married Anissa Mahluf in nineteen fifty seven, who is 104 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: a distant relative of the powerful Mahlouf family. In ninety five, 105 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: the Syria military split in a revolt against then President 106 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: Adeb and Ski, which led Hashim to take power as president. 107 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: He had been president before, and Syria was again under 108 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: civilian rule. So after ninety five a Tassi who in 109 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: English both him and as shask A removed in front 110 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: of their names, so you'll see just Atasi or so 111 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: when I say those that's what I mean. It's just 112 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: it's hard to break away when this is like the 113 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: language in your head sometimes. But I gotta stop with 114 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: these tangents. See this is my first cetle episode, and um, 115 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: this is what you get. But after hold on the 116 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: country was increasingly shaky. As a result of the election, 117 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: was replaced by Shukri Kwatli, who was president before Syria's 118 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: independence from France. The Bath Party grew closer to the 119 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: Communist Party at this time, but not because of shared ideology, 120 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: but rather a shared opposition to the West. At the 121 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: military academy, Assad met Mustafa Plas, which will be his 122 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: future Minister of Defense. Assad was then sent to Egypt 123 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: for a further six months of training, and when Jamal 124 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Agda Nasid, president of Egypt nash analized the Suez Canal 125 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: in fifty six, Syria feared retaliation from the United Kingdom 126 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: and Assad flew in an air defense mission. He was 127 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: among the Syrian pilots who flew to Cairo to show 128 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: Syria's commitment to Egypt. In fifty seven, as squadron commander, 129 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: he was sent to the Soviet Union for training and 130 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: flying m i G seventeens, which I looked up and 131 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: it's a high subsonic fighter aircraft that was produced by 132 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union from fifty two onward and operated by 133 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: air forces internationally. The more you know, but essentially he 134 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: went to the Soviet Union to train and flying these 135 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: things for ten months. Let's go back to fifty eight. Nope, 136 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: we're not going back, We're going forward. In Syria and 137 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: Egypt formed the United Arab Republic, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, 138 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: and Pakistan and Turkey. In Syria and Egypt formed the 139 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: United Arab Republic you a R, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, 140 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: and Turkey, and these countries were aligned with the United Kingdom. 141 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: This pact led to the rejection of communist influence in 142 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: favor of Egyptian control over Syria. All Syrian political parties, 143 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: including the Bath Party, were dissolved and senior officers, especially 144 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: those who had supported the Communists, were dismissed from the 145 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: Syrian armed forces. Assad however, remained in the army and 146 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: quickly rose through the ranks. After reaching the rank of captain, 147 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: he was transferred to Egypt, continuing to the military education 148 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: with the future President of Egypt, Hosta Ni Mubadak. However, 149 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: Assad was not content with a professional military career. He 150 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: viewed it merely as a gateway to a career in 151 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: politics a k A power. After the creation of the 152 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: u a R, the Bath Party experienced a crisis for 153 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: which several of its members, mostly young members, blamed the 154 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: party leader, who at the time was Michel A Flock. 155 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: He was a Syrian philosopher and sociology just In an 156 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: Arab nationalist, and his ideas played a significant role in 157 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: the development of Batheism and its political movement. He's considered 158 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: by several both fists to be the principal founder of 159 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: both Fist thought. So. He had some opposition, however, because 160 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: after the creation of the a R there was some 161 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: unrest to resurrect the Syrian national branch of the party, 162 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: Assad joined others in establishing the Military Committee in fifty 163 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: seven and fifty eight. Assad rose to a dominant position 164 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: in the Military Committee, which mitigated his transfer to Egypt. 165 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: After Syria left the EU a R in September of 166 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: sixty one, Assad other Bothist officers were removed from the 167 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: military by the new government in Damascus, and he was 168 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: given a minor clerical position at the Ministry of Transport. 169 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: Asad played a minor role in the failed nineteen sixty 170 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: two military coup, for which he was jailed in Lebanon 171 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: and then later repatriated. That year, Michel A Flock, the 172 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: Bath Party leader, convened the fifth National Congress of the 173 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: Bath Party, where he was reelected as the Secretary General 174 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: of the National Command, and then he ordered the re 175 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: establishment of the party's Syrian regional branch. There there's a 176 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: lot of congresses, there's a lot of branches, there's a 177 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: lot of committees. Uh. It gets really confusing, just these 178 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: men shutting down and then re igniting these things. So 179 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: bear with me here. At this congress, the Military Committee 180 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: established contacts with a Fluk and the civilian leadership. The 181 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: committee requested permission to cease power by force, and a 182 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: Fleck agreed to this conspiracy. After the success of the 183 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: Iraqi coup led by the Bath Party's Iraqi regional branch, 184 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: the Military Committee hastily convened to launch their own Bathist 185 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: military coup in March of nineteen sixty three against President 186 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: Nasim el Lets, which Assad helped plan. He helped plan 187 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: this coup. During this coup, he led a small group 188 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: to capture the Dumayette Air Base, about twenty five miles 189 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: north of Damascus. Assad's group was the only one that 190 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: encountered resistance. Some planes at the base were ordered to 191 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: bomb the conspirators, and because of this, Assad hurried to 192 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: reach the base before dawn because the sevente armored brigades 193 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: surrender took longer than anticipated. However, Assad arrived there in 194 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: broad daylight. When Assad threatened the base commander with shelling, 195 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: the commander negotiated a surrender. Later, Assad claimed that the 196 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: base could have easily withstood his forces, so his bluff worked, 197 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: and this garnered him a lot of respect. Not long 198 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: after Assad's election to the regional command, the military Committee 199 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: ordered him to strengthen the committee's position in the military establishment. 200 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: In doing so, Assad may have received the most important 201 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: job of all, because his primary goal was to end 202 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: factionalism in the Syrian military and make it a Bath monopoly. 203 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: He said he had to create a ideological army to 204 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: help with this task. He recruited Zeki Arsuzi, who was 205 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: the person who actually indirectly inspired him to join the 206 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: Bath party in the first place. When he was young. 207 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: Arsuzi accompanied us said on tours of military camps, where 208 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: Arsuzi lectured the soldiers on Bathist thought and gratitude for 209 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: his work, Asad gave Arsuzi a government pension, and Assad 210 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: continued his bathification of the military by appointing loyal officers 211 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: to keep positions and ensuring that the political education of 212 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: the troops was not neglected. He demonstrated his skill as 213 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: a logistical leader during this period, and he was said 214 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: to have a highly intelligent mastery of detail, which garnered 215 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: him a lot of respect. And I want to make 216 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: this clear. I talked to my mom a bit about 217 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: this and doing this research, and has said was very smart. 218 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: He was known as a very smart man. He knew 219 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: what he was doing at every turn, despite what seems 220 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: like it's like he this fell into his lap or like, uh, 221 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: later you'll see that the president he he overthrew, had 222 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: no idea he had didn't see him as a threat. 223 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: But but I mean before and after he took power, 224 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: he was known to be very cunning. And so yeah, 225 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: I just think that's an important little um being to 226 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: take note of. Even in school, they were saying that 227 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: he was an excellent student. So he has a plan, 228 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: I think for most of this. But let's take a 229 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: little break and we'll be right back to finish this up. 230 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: Well this part, I mean, okay, whatever, I'm sorry, we're back. Wow. Okay. So, 231 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: after he had been bathifying the military, he was promoted 232 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: to major and then to lieutenant colonel, and by the 233 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: end of nineteen sixty four, he was in charge of 234 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: the Syrian Air Force as the Air Force Commander Assad 235 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: gave privileges to Air Force officer, and he appointed his 236 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: confidence to senior and sensitive positions, and he established an 237 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: efficient intelligence network. Air Force intelligence, under the command of 238 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: Muhammad al Huli, became independent of Syria's other intelligence organizations 239 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: and received assignments beyond Air Force jurisdiction. Assad prepared himself 240 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: for an active role in the power struggles that were 241 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: soon to come. As I said, he's cunning, he knows 242 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: what he's doing in the aftermath of the nineteen sixty 243 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: three coup. At the first Regional Congress, Assad was elected 244 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: to the Syrian Regional Command, the highest decision making body 245 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: in the Syrian regional branch. It's so confusing, I can't 246 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: keep track. And while this was not a leadership role, 247 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: it was Assad's first appearance in national politics, which is 248 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: a significant thing to point out because, as you'll see, 249 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: it only grows. During the nineteen sixty four Hamma riot, 250 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: Assad voted to suppress the uprising violently if needed. This 251 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: decision to suppress the Hamma Raya led to conflict within 252 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: the military Committee, which I'm going to skip over because 253 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: it's a more clusterfucky than ever. But ultimately in sixty 254 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: five the eighth National Congress. During this Assad was elected 255 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: to the National Command, the party's highest decision making body. 256 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: I know, I just said that about something else, but 257 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: that was about the Syrian Regional Branch. There are a 258 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: lot of parties and commands and branches and committees. As 259 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: I said, just know that it's a group of men 260 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: probably that just make decisions. But he was elected to 261 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: this highest making body, this this party of people, and 262 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: it said that asad abhorred a fluck, the party leader 263 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: of the Bathist Party, Assad considered a fluck, a autocrat 264 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: and a rightist, accusing him of ditching the party by 265 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: ordering the dissolution of the Syrian Regional Branch. In fifty eight, 266 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: in response to the eminent coup that was about to 267 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: happen that Assad knew was going to happen, he left 268 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: for London. In the nineteen sixty six Syrian coup, the 269 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: Military Committee overthrew the National Command. The coup led to 270 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: a permanent split in the bath movement and the advent 271 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: of neo Bathism, as well as the establishment of two 272 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: centers of the International Bathist Movement, one Iraqi and the 273 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: other Syrian dominated. After the coup, Assad was appointed Minister 274 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: of Defense. This was his first cabinet post, but despite 275 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 1: his title, he actually had little power in the government 276 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: and took more orders than he gave. Salafaded, who helped 277 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: Assad established the Military Committee years prior, was the undisputed 278 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: leader at the time, and he opted to remain in 279 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: the office of Assistant Regional Secretary of the Syrian Regional 280 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: Command instead of taking executive office, which had historically been 281 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: held by sunnies Jaded, trying to establish his authority, focused 282 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: on civilian issues and gave Assad de facto control of 283 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: a Syrian military, considering him no threat at all. During 284 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: the failed coup of late nineteen sixty six, Salim Hathum 285 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 1: tried to overthrow Jadid's government. Hathum was a military officer 286 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: and he felt snubbed when he was not appointed to 287 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: the Regional Command after the sixty six coup, and he 288 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: sought revenge and the return to power of Hammoud and Shuffi, 289 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: who was the first regional secretary of the Regional Command. 290 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: After the Syrian regional Branches re establishment is sixty three. 291 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, so many branches and everything. I'm just 292 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: team just design on one group. Anyway, when Jaded, they 293 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: see in the regional command member Jama, visited the city 294 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: of Sueeda, the forces loyal to Hatum surrounded the city 295 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: and they captured them. The city's Drews leaders forbade the 296 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: murder of their guests and demanded the hat Um wait. 297 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: So Jaded and the others were placed under house arrest, 298 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: with Hatoum planning to kill them at his first opportunity 299 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: because he wanted revenge. When word of the mutiny spread 300 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: to the Ministry of Defense a Assad, Assad ordered the 301 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: seventieth Armored Brigade to the city of Sueida. By this time, Hatum, 302 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: who was a Drew's, knew that a Sad would order 303 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: the bombardment of Sueida, which was a Druis dominated city, 304 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: if Hatum did not accept Assad's demands. So this led 305 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: to Hattum and his supporters to flee to Jordan's eventually, 306 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: where they were given asylum. But due to his prompt 307 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: action and his protection of Jadid and the other members 308 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: that were captured, a Sad earned Jadid's gratitude after this incident. 309 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: So I know, I just casually mentioned this word a 310 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: minute ago, and so just to the people that aren't 311 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: aware of what it means. No, again, a lot more 312 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: to delve into than what I'm just going to say 313 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: right now. But Drew's are members of an Arabic speaking 314 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: ethno religious group originate in Western Asia there largely in 315 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: Lebanon and Syria now and they originally developed out of 316 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: Shia Islam. Even though most Drewis members are most Drews 317 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: rather do not identify as Muslim. They practiced their own 318 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: religion that is called Drusism. I've been trying to say 319 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: that word for a long time. Daniel cut out me, 320 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: saying in a bunch of times, um, I apologize that 321 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: I probably mispronounced it, But the point is they practiced 322 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: their own sect of religion that originated from the Shia 323 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: Islamic sect way back when. But at this point they're 324 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: their own religious group. So moving on that, I just 325 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: wanted to shed light on that word in case people 326 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: didn't know. Back to Syria. So, after this incident took 327 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: place and after Assad basically came to the rescue, Jadid 328 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: had a lot of gratitude for him, and continuing in 329 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: the aftermath of the sixty six coup attempt, Assad and 330 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: Jadeed purge the party's military organization ASAD removed and estimated 331 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: a four hundred officers, and this was Syria's largest military 332 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: purge to date. But the purges which began when the 333 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: Both Party took power in sixty three had left the 334 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: military week and as a result, when the Six Day 335 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: War broke out, Syria had no chance of victory. I 336 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: feel like this is maybe a good place to say 337 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: goodbye for the day. I thought it would be more 338 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: digestible if these episodes were shorter instead of being an 339 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: epic tale that could run over an hour. But yeah, 340 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: let's say goodbye. This is Sharene, this is it could 341 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: happen here? Here you tomorrow, talk to you tomorrow. Why 342 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: do I have this job? Okay, goodbye? Wow, we're back. Um, 343 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: this is Sharine and this is it can happen. That's 344 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: all I'm in the name of podcast. This is it 345 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: could happen here. I'm so sorry. Um. But last episode, Um, 346 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: we talked about Syria and the history of how happsite 347 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: said eventually came into power and how he subsequently let 348 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: his family become dictators of this country for over half 349 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: a century and how they've destroyed it. But we are 350 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: still in the sixties right now, So let's just continue 351 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: from where we left off. UH. Last time, I had 352 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: just ended mentioning the Sixth Day War, UH, and how 353 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: Syria was defeated in the Sixth Day War. This is 354 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: a topic that should be episodes all on its own, 355 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: but just very very roughly summarize the Sixth Day War 356 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: as it's called. It's also called the nineties sixty seven 357 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: war and the June War. It's interesting because Israeli's call 358 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: it the sixth Day War, and that's become the term 359 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: that everyone uses, but differing terms for differing people, I suppose. 360 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: But essentially, on June five, nineteen sixty seven, just three 361 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: weeks after it marked the nineteenth anniversary of its founding, 362 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: Israel went to war with the armies of Egypt, Syria 363 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: and Jordan's and defeated them essentially, very very rough summary. 364 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: And this led to Israel capturing a k a, stealing 365 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: the goal and heights from Syria. And the roots of 366 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: this war go all the way back to the forties, 367 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: and there are moment in history that led up to 368 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: this moment, but it was a huge turning point in 369 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern history and the consequences of it are still 370 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: felt today across the region. And the outcome of this 371 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: war basically altered the map of the Middle East for 372 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: the foreseeable future, and it's further blocked this path to 373 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: any kind of potential piece between Israel and Palestine. Uh, 374 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: and it just redrew the landscape of this conflict and 375 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 1: expanded Israel's territorial claims and military dominance in the region. Um. 376 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: They gained a lot of territory during this war and 377 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: had the help of the U N behind them, So yeah, 378 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: it's it was not good for Arab countries so much 379 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: more to get into their But this war, essentially, when 380 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about his Syrian history, changed everything. And I 381 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in the last episode that when the Bath 382 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: Party took power in sixty three, there was some more 383 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: pershing of the Syrian military and Assad removed about four 384 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: hundred officers, which was the largest purge to date. But 385 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: this had left their military week and obviously did not 386 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: help them in this June war. But uh, yeah, there's 387 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: so much more there. I will try to get into that, 388 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: lady or another time. But the Arab defeat in this 389 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: June war um led to Israel stealing the goal in 390 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: heights from Syria, and this provoked a furious quarrel among 391 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: Syria's leadership. The civilian leadership blamed military incompetence, and the 392 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: military responded by criticizing the civilian leadership, which was led 393 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: by Salashadid, who was the person that was ruling the country. 394 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: He had the most power. At this point, several high 395 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: ranking party members demanded that haf Said resign and an 396 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: attempt was made to vote him out of the regional command. 397 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: This motion was defeated by one vote, and this man 398 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: was Karim Gendi, who the anti Assad members. They were 399 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: hoping that he would succeed Assad as Defense minister, but 400 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: he became the deciding vote, and he said he did 401 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: so in a comradely gesture. Remember this name. He will 402 00:25:53,280 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: come back. But yes, j D made it so Assad 403 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: wasn't voted out. During the end of the war, Hafuz 404 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: was approached by dissident Syrian military officers who out the government, 405 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: but at the time he actually refused because he believed 406 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: a coup during that time would have helped Israel, not Syria, 407 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: which is very interesting because he eventually took power by 408 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: a coup, but he refused our first because of the 409 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: timing being wrong. Again, I think this just demonstrates his 410 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: unfortunately high intelligence for someone so bad. Anyway, as I mentioned, 411 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: this war was a turning point, and it was also 412 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: a turning point for as said, and the Boss Syria 413 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: movement in general. It soon began a power struggle with 414 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: Jadid for control over the country. Until then, Asad hadn't 415 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: really shown ambition for high office, and he aroused little 416 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: suspicion in others, no one really saw him as a threat. 417 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: From the nineteen three Syrian coup to the war in 418 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: sixty seven, Assad did not play a leading role in politics, 419 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: and he was usually overshadowed by his contemporaries. Patrick Seal 420 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: was a British journalist and an author who specialized in 421 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: the Middle East, and he wrote several books about the 422 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: Assad family and Syria. And he said the Hafs was 423 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: apparently content to be a solid member of the team 424 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: without the aspiration to become number one. He also interviewed 425 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: haf Is at one point, so he had a lot 426 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: of good information this Patrick Seal, which I'll mentioned throughout. 427 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: So although Jadid was slow to see Assad's threat, and 428 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: although Assad didn't appear like he wanted power from the outside. 429 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: Shortly after the war, Assad began developing a network in 430 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: the military and promoted friends and close relatives to high positions. 431 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: Assad believed that Syria's defeat in the June War was 432 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: Jadid's fault and that the accusations against himself were unjust. 433 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: By this time, Jadid had total control of the regional Command, 434 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: whose members supported his policies, but Asad and Jaded began 435 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: to differ on policy. Asad believed that Jadid's policy of 436 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: a people's war and armed guerrilla strategy and class struggle 437 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: had failed Syria, undermining its position. Although Jaded continued to 438 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: champion the concept of a people's war even after the 439 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: June War, Assad opposed it. He felt that the Palestinian 440 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: guerilla fighters had been given too much autonomy and their 441 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: raiding of Israel had made the war worse for the 442 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: Arab's fighting. Jaded also had broken diplomatic relations with countries 443 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: he deemed reactionary, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan's, and because 444 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: of this, Syria did not receive aid from other Arab countries. 445 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: While Jadid and his supporters prioritize socialism and the internal 446 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: revolution in quotes. Assad wanted the leadership to focus on 447 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: foreign polo see and the containment of Israel. The Bath 448 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: Party was divided over several issues, such as how the 449 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: government could best use Syria's limited resources, the ideal relationship 450 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: between the party and the people, the organization of the party, 451 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: and whether the class struggle should end. The conflict between 452 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: a Sad and Jadid became the talk of the army 453 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: and the party, with a quote duality of power noted 454 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: between them by the fourth Regional Congress and the tenth 455 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: National Congress in September and October sixty eight. Assad had 456 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: extended his grip on the army and Jadid still controlled 457 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: the party at both congresses, as Sad was outvoted on 458 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: most issues and his arguments were firmly rejected. The military's 459 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: involvement in party politics was unpopular with the rank and file. 460 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: As the gulf between Assad and Jadeed widened, the civilian 461 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: and military party bodies were forbidden to contact each other. 462 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: Despite this, Assad was winning the race to accumulate power 463 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: munif that is, as who was ousted in the nineteen 464 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: sixty six Syrian coup, noted that Jadid's fatal mistake was 465 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: to attempt to govern the army through the party, because 466 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: Syria will always have their government is the military essentially, 467 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say. Anyway, while Assad had 468 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: taken control of the armed forces through his position as 469 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: Minister of Defense, Jaded still controlled the security and intelligence 470 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: sectors through Abdukadima gen D, who was the head of 471 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: the National Security Bureau Gen D, who was a paranoid 472 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: cruel man. He was feared throughout Syria, especially later in 473 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: his life. In February of nineteen sixty nine, the Sad 474 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: Jaded conflict erupted and violent clashes through their respective prodigies. 475 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: There wasn't a fact that said who is a Sad 476 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: brother and he was a high ranking military commander and 477 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: a Gen D. So agen D was the protege of 478 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: ja D and a Sad brother he thought was his protege. 479 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: So to say, the reason for the violence was, in fact, 480 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: said suspicion that Agendi was planning an attempt on his 481 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: brother Hapfus's life. The suspected assassin was interrogated and eventually 482 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: confessed under torture acting on this information. The fact argued 483 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: that unless agen D was removed from his post that 484 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: he and his brother were in danger. Okay, let's take 485 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: a break, B R B. Listen to this and we're back. Wow. Okay, 486 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: let's continue. From the twenty to February. In nineteen sixty nine, 487 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: the A SAD Brothers initiated quote something just short of 488 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: a coup. Under a SAD authority, tanks were moved into 489 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: Damascus and the staffs of two party newspapers, the Bath 490 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: and Athota, as well as radio station in Damascus and 491 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: Boat were replaced by A SAD loyalists the Takia and Tartus, 492 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: which are two alo white dominated cities. They saw fierce scuffles, 493 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: ending with the overthrow of Jade's supporters from local posts. 494 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: Shortly afterwards, a wave of arrests and Gen D loyalists began. 495 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: On March two, after a telephone argument with the head 496 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: of military intelligence, Al Duba, it is said that a 497 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: Gen D committed suicide. When I mentioned this to my mom, 498 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: she said, well, that's what they say, because originally I'm 499 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: reading this being like, okay, history obviously, I actually remember 500 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: that there's always someone that writes the history. Um, So 501 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: just pointing that out there because she put that little 502 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: nugget of information in my head. But as far as 503 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: we're concerned, in this summary, it is said that Jendi 504 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: committed suicide after his loyalists began to be arrested and 505 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: they were just continuing violence between his side, and said 506 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: so this led to a Sad now being in control. However, 507 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: he hesitated to push his advantage. Jaded continued to rule 508 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: Syria and the regional command was unchanged. However, a SAD 509 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: influenced Jaded to moderate his policies. Class struggle was muted, 510 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: criticism of reactionary tendencies of other Arab states ceased, Some 511 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: political prisoners were freed, A coalition of government was formed 512 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: where the Bath Party was in control, and the Eastern Front, 513 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: supported by an Assad, was formed with Iraq and Jordan's. 514 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: Jaded's isolationist policies were curtailed, and Syria re established diplomatic 515 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: relations with many of its foes, which is what a 516 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: SAD wanted. And while Assad had been in de facto 517 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: command of Syrian policies since nineteen sixty nine, Jaded and 518 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: his supporters still held the trappings of power. After attending 519 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: Jamad Obtnasair's funeral, in Egypt, he was the President of Egypt. 520 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: A Sad return to Syria for the emergency National Congress, 521 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: where a Sad was condemned by Jadid and his supporters, 522 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: who still made out the majority of the party's delegates. However, 523 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: before attending the congress, A Sad ordered his loyal troops 524 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: to surround the building housing the meeting. Again, this guy 525 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: thinks ahead, he's too smart. I hate him. He's dead 526 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: those or whatever, I still hate you. So, as he's 527 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: being criticized, and as he's being condemned, he has troops 528 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: surrounding this building. And so the criticism of a Sad's 529 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: political position continued, but it had a defeatist tone, with 530 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: the majority of delegates believing that they have lost the battle. 531 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: And even though a Sad was eventually stripped of his 532 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: government post at the congress, these acts had little practical significance. 533 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: When the National Congress ended on November twelfth, nineteen seventy, 534 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: A Sad ordered loyalists to arrest leading members of Jadeed's government. 535 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: Although many mid level officials were offered posts in Syrian 536 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: embassies and abroad, Jadid refused, saying if I ever take power, 537 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: you will be dragged through the streets until you die. 538 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: A Sad imprisoned Jaded in Medsday prison until his death. 539 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: Despite the intense clusterfuck of everything that preceded this surprise, 540 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: office's coup was actually calm and bloodless. When he eventually 541 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: had his coup to take power and succeeded, the only 542 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: evidence of change to the outside world was the disappearance 543 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: of newspapers, radio stations, and television stations. A temporary regional 544 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: command was soon established, and on November sixteenth of nineteen 545 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: seventy the new government published its first decree. So only 546 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: in a matter of days a lot can happen man. 547 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: According to Patrick Seal, a Sad's rule quote began with 548 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: an immediate considerable advantage. The gun from it he displaced 549 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: was so detested that any alternative came as a relief. 550 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: He first tried to establish national unity, which he felt 551 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: had been lost under the leadership of a flock and Jadid. 552 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: Assad differed from his predecessor at the outset, visiting local 553 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: villages and hearing citizen complaints. The Syrian people felt that 554 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: Assad's rise to power would maybe lead to change, and 555 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: although a Sad didn't democratize the country. He eased the 556 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: government's repressive policies at the time. He cut prices for 557 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: basic food stuffs fift which won him support from ordinary citizens. 558 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: Jadeed's security services were purged and some military criminal investigative 559 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: powers were transferred to the police. In the confiscation of 560 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: goods under Jadid was reversed. Restrictions on travel and trade 561 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: with Lebanon were eased, and Assad encouraged growth in the 562 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: private sector. While Assad supported most of Jadeed's policies to 563 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: begin with, he proved to be more pragmatic after he 564 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: came to power. Let's take a little break here, when 565 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: we right back to wrap this little history lesson up, 566 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: and then you're free of me for the day. Okay, 567 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: So we're back. Um. Before the break, we're talking about 568 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: as Sad coming into power, and how his policies differed 569 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: from Jadid's, and how he made an effort to differentiate himself. However, 570 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: most of Jade's supporters they faced a choice either continue 571 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: working for the bath government under a Sad or face repression. 572 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: Assad had made it clear previously from the beginning that 573 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: there would be no second chances. In his words, however, 574 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: in late nineteen seventy, he recruited support from the Bathist 575 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: Old Guard, who had supported a Flox leadership during the 576 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three ninety six power struggle. An estimated two 577 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: thousand former Baathists rejoined the party after hearing Asad's appeal 578 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: at the eleventh National Congress, A Sad assured party members 579 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: that his leadership with a radical change from that of Jadid, 580 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: and he would implement a quote corrective movement to return 581 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: Syria to the true nationalist socialist line. A Sad turned 582 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: the presidency, which had been known simply as quote head 583 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,439 Speaker 1: of state under Jadid, into a position of power. During 584 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: his rule, as the president became the main source of 585 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: initiative in the government, His personality, values, strengths and weaknesses 586 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: became decisive for his direction and stability. A Sad institutionalized 587 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: a system where he had the final say, which weakened 588 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: the powers of the collegial institutions of the party and state, 589 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: as fidelity to the leader replaced ideological conviction. Later in 590 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: his presidency, corruption became widespread, the state sponsored cult of 591 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: personality became pervasive, and as Assad's authorities strengthened, he became 592 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: the sole symbol of the government. And it sounds normal now, 593 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: I guess when you think of like a dictator's face 594 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: being plastered over buildings and stuff. But it was very 595 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: much like that in Syria, and it still is as 596 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: far as the Shire is concerned. But with Hafez, I mean, 597 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: his image was plastered everywhere. You couldn't really escape it. 598 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: He was the symbol of the Syrian government. And while 599 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: Assad did not rule alone, he increasingly had the last word. 600 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: None of the political elite would question a decision of his, 601 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: and those who did were dismissed, removed from their positions, 602 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: and stripped of their power. When Assad came to power, 603 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: he increased the Allohite dominance of the security and intelligence 604 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: sectors to a near monopoly. The coercive framework was under 605 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 1: his control, weakening the state and party. The leading figures 606 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: of the Allo White dominated security system had family connections, 607 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: but the fact that I said, for example, controlled the 608 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: Struggle Company as his brother and then Asad's son in law, 609 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: Aidan Macluf was his second in command as commander of 610 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: the Presidential Guard. Asad controlled the military through the Allowhites, 611 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: and the Allowhites, with their high status, appointed and promoted 612 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: base on their kinship and favor rather than professional respect. Therefore, 613 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: an Allo White elite emerged from these policies with a 614 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: sad and full control of the military and the Allo 615 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: Whites holding all the power, which is very interesting if 616 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: you think back to the beginning of our first episode 617 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: where I mentioned that the Allo Whites are a religious 618 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: minority and originally didn't have a lot of power in 619 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: the government, and through half Assets coming into power, the 620 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: Allo Whites are suddenly elite and in control, and it's 621 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: a huge flip from what it was decades prior. However, 622 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: when Assade began pursuing a policy of economic liberalization, the 623 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 1: state bureaucracy began to use their positions for personal gain. 624 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: The state gave implementation rights to QUOTE much of its 625 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: development program to foreign firms and contractors, fueling a growing 626 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: linkage between the state and private capital. Basically, what ensued 627 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: was a huge bike in corruption. The channeling of external 628 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: money through the state to private enterprises. Quote created growing 629 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: opportunities for state elites self enrichment through corrupt manipulation of 630 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: state market interchanges. Besides outright embezzlement, webs of shared interests 631 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: in commissions and kickbacks grew between high officials, politicians, and 632 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: business interests. The Alla white military security establishment got the 633 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: greatest share of the money, obviously, and the bath Party 634 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: and its leader is ruled a new class, defending their 635 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: interests instead of those of the peasants and workers who 636 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: they were supposed to represent. This, coupled with growing Sunny 637 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: disillusionment with the regime's mixture of Sadism, rural and secretary 638 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: and favoritism, corruption and u inequalities, fueled the growth of 639 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: the Islamic movement. Because of this, the Muslim Brotherhood of 640 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: Syria became the vanguard of anti Bathist forces. The Brotherhood 641 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its 642 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: introduction to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties 643 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: under the leadership of Mustafa A. Sabai. The Brotherhood had 644 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction 645 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties. After 646 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: Sabai's imprisonment and under Isam and Althotas leadership, the Brotherhood 647 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: developed into the ideological antithesis of Bathist rule. Because of 648 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: their organizational capabilities, the Muslim Brotherhood grew tenfold from nine 649 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy eight. The Islamic Uprising began in the 650 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: mid to late nineteen seventies with attacks on prominent members 651 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: of the bath A Lawai elite. As the conflict worsened, 652 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: a debate began in the party between hardliners represented by 653 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: Rafa and bath liberals represented by Mahmoud and a Yubi. 654 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: The seventh Regional Congress in nineteen eighty was held in 655 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: an atmosphere of crisis. Party leadership, with the exception of 656 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: Assad and his proteges, were criticized severely by the party delegates, 657 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: who called for an anti corruption campaign, a new clean government, 658 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: curtailing the powers of a military security apparatus, and political liberalization. 659 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: The Sunni middle class and the radical left, believing that 660 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: Baptist rule could be overthrown with an uprising, began collaborating 661 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: with the Islamists. And I mean although they are called 662 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: the Islamists, obviously they do not represent the entirety of 663 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,479 Speaker 1: Islam uh. Similar to Christian radical groups um hold onto 664 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: the name Christian, they don't represent the entirety of Christianity. 665 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: YadA YadA, YadA, bad badh blah. And although the word 666 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: Islam is in the word Islamists. I wanted to draw 667 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: attention to the fact that Islamism is not a form 668 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety. 669 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: It is rather a political ideology that strives to derive 670 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: ttimacy from Islam. So it's about political strategies that believe 671 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: in a revival or a return to authentic and quotes 672 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: Islamic practice in its totality. So it's a political ideology, 673 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: not necessarily a religion. Um. I just want you guys 674 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 1: to be aware of that, because I think a lot 675 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: of people don't understand what that means. Regardless believing they 676 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: had the upper hand in the conflict. Beginning in nineteen eighty, 677 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: the Islamists began a series of campaigns against government installations 678 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: in Aleppo. The attacks became urban guerrilla warfare. The government 679 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: began to lose control in the city. Those affected by 680 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: Bathist repression began to rally behind the insurgents. The bath 681 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 1: Party co founder Salahadin supported the uprising, rallying the old 682 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 1: anti military Bathist together. The increasing threat to the government's 683 00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: survival strengthened the herdliners, who favored repression over concessions. Security 684 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: forces began to purge all state party and social institutions 685 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: in Syria and were sent to the northern provinces to 686 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: quell the uprising. When this failed, hardliners began accusing the 687 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: United States of fomenting and provoking the uprising and called 688 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: for the reinstatement of quote revolutionary vigilance. After a failed 689 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: attempt on a Sad's life in June of nineteen eighty, 690 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: the government began responding to the uprising with state terrorism 691 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,280 Speaker 1: under a fat said. The Islamic prisoners at the Tadmore 692 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 1: Prison were massacred. Membership in the Muslim Brotherhood became a 693 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: capital offense, and the government sent a death squad to 694 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,879 Speaker 1: kill bad and others former wife. The military court began 695 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: condemning captured militants, which sometimes degenerated into indiscriminate killings. Little 696 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: care was taken to distinguish Muslim Brotherhood hardliners from their 697 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 1: passive supporters, and violence was met with violence. So essentially, 698 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: this just led the Asad regime too murder a bunch 699 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,399 Speaker 1: of people, innocent, guilty all of the above. So yeah. 700 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: One of the many instances where the Assad regime was 701 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: extremely violent and engaged in horrific state terrorism. So we're 702 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,359 Speaker 1: I'm wrapping up the end of this one, and um, 703 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: there's going to be a bit of crossover over this 704 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: next event in the following episode. But the final most 705 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,279 Speaker 1: atrocious violence conducted by the Syrian government during this time 706 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: was the Hamma massacre, which took place in February, when 707 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: the government crushed the uprising. Helicopter, gunships, bulldozers, and artillery 708 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: bombardment raised the city, killing thousands of people. The bath 709 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: government withstood the uprising, and it made Syria more totalitarian 710 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: than ever before, strengthening Assad's position as the undisputed leader 711 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 1: of Syria. That is where I'm going to wrap up 712 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: for the day. I did want to I don't know, 713 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: maybe just like set the tone for what hoffs is 714 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: A rule was like. I talked to my mom a 715 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,439 Speaker 1: bit about this when I was preparing to record these, 716 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,239 Speaker 1: and she reminded me of a bunch of things that 717 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: I had forgotten about. One was that I was in 718 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: Syria when Hoffas was president when I was younger, and 719 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: I remember everyone being terrified to speak any kind of 720 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: negative thing or even anything to each other. No one 721 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: would dare speak a word on the phone definitely not 722 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: allowed to each other. There were all these whispers of 723 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,400 Speaker 1: the walls could hear you. No one trusted anybody. My 724 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: mother described it as a culture of fear, and it 725 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: was that's how Hoffus ruled. It was through fear, through 726 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: like utter terror. And I just had forgotten a bunch 727 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: of details about what I remember growing up, and like 728 00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: the phone being this, like you just assume it was 729 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: always app you assume anyone could always hear you. You 730 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: can't trust anybody because you don't know what someone will 731 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: do with the information. And there was a bit more 732 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: that she mentioned that I wanted to just highlight that 733 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know where to incorporate in that timeline. But 734 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: when the Iran Iraq war happened, it was between eight 735 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: and eight um Haffas sided with Iran. So after this 736 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 1: uh and during everything was about supporting Iran, So all 737 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: Syrian factories, all the food, it was all dedicated to 738 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: war efforts to support Iran. My older sister at the 739 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: time was a really picky eater, and apparently one of 740 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,439 Speaker 1: the only things she ate were bananas, and my mom 741 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,400 Speaker 1: remembers that she couldn't find even a banana anywhere, like 742 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,720 Speaker 1: everything was hard to come by. It was really desperate 743 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: times even after the war ended, and every election, in 744 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: quotes was fraudulent. It was a joke. My grandmother Um 745 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,319 Speaker 1: worked as a school teacher in Syria. You and um, 746 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,440 Speaker 1: teachers are a civic position there really, like most positions 747 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,759 Speaker 1: are governmental positions. And my grandma during these elections would 748 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: throw out the nose and only include the yes is 749 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,719 Speaker 1: because the only option was yes or no if he 750 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,880 Speaker 1: wanted to continuef as his rule or not, those are 751 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,320 Speaker 1: the only two options. And she told us that the 752 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: nose were discarded immediately and the only ones that were 753 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: kept were the yesses. And eventually there was an election 754 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,800 Speaker 1: that determined that Haffas and his family would be in 755 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: power forever and as it was a phrase that used, 756 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: and essentially this means until death or forever, you will 757 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: be in power. It does have his name in their 758 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: but it implies his whole family. So it's just they 759 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: gave him power forever. That is literally what that means. 760 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think, um, there's so much more to 761 00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: talk about here, and I would love for my mom 762 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,320 Speaker 1: to just give me more information about this that I 763 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: can share eventually. There's just so much. And this episode 764 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: is already getting kind of long, so I'm gonna wrap 765 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,919 Speaker 1: it up here. In the next episode, we'll be talking 766 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: about but Shad and how he became the dictator of 767 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: Syria and how he was even meant to be the 768 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 1: president of Syria, and yeah, a lot of interesting history 769 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: that leads to some topical information that I think is important. 770 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 1: So see you there if you want to. But wow, 771 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,280 Speaker 1: it's me again. Uh, this is Sharia. This is also 772 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,279 Speaker 1: it could happen here. We've been talking about Syria for 773 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: the last few episodes and we're going to continue and 774 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,320 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna jump right in because there's a lot Okay, 775 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: So this is a continuation about Syria and the terrible 776 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,320 Speaker 1: family that controls it, the assets. As I mentioned in 777 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: the previous episodes, Uh, the Assads have destroyed Syria and 778 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: the death toll that they are responsible for is literally 779 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,360 Speaker 1: incalculable by the UN but it's said to be nearing 780 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 1: half a million people, which is a lot of people. So. 781 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: Sam Dagger is an American Lebanese journalist and author who 782 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,239 Speaker 1: has lived and worked in the Middle East for more 783 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 1: than sixteen years. He was based in Damascus in the 784 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,839 Speaker 1: early years of the current war before the government kicked 785 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: him out in but he used his access to write 786 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: about the inside story of the Sad family. He has 787 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,800 Speaker 1: a book titled A sad Or We Burned the Country, 788 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: which I admittedly have not read. It's like five hundre pages, 789 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,360 Speaker 1: but I did pull a lot of info from the 790 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: book and interviews that he's done about it, mostly in 791 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: regards to the economic stuff that we'll get into later, 792 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,800 Speaker 1: but it was very helpful resource. When Dagger was in Syria, 793 00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,760 Speaker 1: he saw this phrase A sad Or reburned the country, 794 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 1: which is the title of his book. All over the 795 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: towns and neighborhoods that had been taken over by the 796 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,480 Speaker 1: regime graffiti it on walls, probably by loyalists or government 797 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: militias or whatever, or as people that love him barf. 798 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,279 Speaker 1: And in this case they're talking about the shadow I said, 799 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,560 Speaker 1: who is the son of the person we were talking 800 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,400 Speaker 1: about previously said, but it essentially also includes the entire family. 801 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,440 Speaker 1: They are in power forever, and the Asad regime routinely 802 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:36,279 Speaker 1: takes over deserted, destroyed areas, and these government militias come 803 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: in and loot the area until it's nothing but rubble 804 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: littered by things that are left behind as people are fleeing, 805 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 1: and things that these loyalists find useless, like teddy bears 806 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,839 Speaker 1: and personal items that actually tell a really devastating story 807 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,760 Speaker 1: about the lives that used to occupy that space. Because 808 00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,080 Speaker 1: these loyalists, these sad obsessed freaks, they take everything that 809 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 1: they deem worth looting, even things like tiles and doors, 810 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:08,320 Speaker 1: So you're left with these ghost towns. Literally figuratively, the 811 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: phrase is sad or reburned the country means exactly what 812 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: it says. It means that the Shadow and his family 813 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: will remain in power or else they will burn the 814 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: country to the ground and burn everyone who opposes the 815 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 1: Assad regime along with it. And although the shadowst has 816 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: now been in power for twenty two years, he was 817 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,040 Speaker 1: actually never meant to be in power. His father had 818 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 1: appointed himself as president in ninety one after overthrowing the 819 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: prior government through military coup. The Shadow s has succeeded 820 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 1: his father in two thousand after his father's death, and 821 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,959 Speaker 1: it continued their famili's hold on Syria and his people. 822 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,719 Speaker 1: Was a very significant year. Not only was it the 823 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,320 Speaker 1: year I was born and that's why, but Also, the 824 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,120 Speaker 1: Soviet Union collapsed and the Berlin Wall fell and dictatorships 825 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,200 Speaker 1: were crumbling. The Soviet Union was seen as the main 826 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: supporter or guardian of the Sad regime, but in it 827 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,080 Speaker 1: didn't exist anymore. So the a Sad regime was suddenly 828 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,960 Speaker 1: in trouble. Its priority was to present an image of 829 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,560 Speaker 1: reform and repackaged itself so half as Said, could hand 830 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,279 Speaker 1: down the power to his eldest son, Bassett said Um 831 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,319 Speaker 1: and Bassett was an army officer who was essentially brought 832 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,879 Speaker 1: up to eventually fill this role taking over for his father, 833 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,160 Speaker 1: and his military background fit the image of this traditional 834 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,120 Speaker 1: leader of the Arab world because so many of these 835 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,320 Speaker 1: leaders took over by military coup or had a background 836 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 1: of military. But before we get into all of that, 837 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: let's go back in time a little bit and talk 838 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: about what went down. So a sort of succession crisis 839 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,239 Speaker 1: was triggered in November three when haf Said, a diabetic, 840 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: had a heart attack on November after visiting his brother 841 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 1: in a hospital. The fact that Said reportedly announced his 842 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,799 Speaker 1: candidacy for president, he did not believe that his brother 843 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 1: would be able to continue ruling the country after to this, 844 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,560 Speaker 1: when he did not receive support from Assad's inner circle. 845 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: He made lavish promises to win them over, but apparently 846 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,839 Speaker 1: some believe that a Fact had been as first choice 847 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 1: of successor, and it was an idea that some people 848 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,359 Speaker 1: say he broached as early as nineteen eighty. The fact 849 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,800 Speaker 1: that I said was the younger brother of Haffaz and 850 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: he served as vice president. Many believe him to be 851 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: the commanding officer responsible for the Hamma massacre of two um. 852 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: I briefly mentioned this in the previous episode at the end. 853 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: It was a horrific massacre, and I think it especially 854 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 1: is near to me because Hamma is my mother's hometown 855 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,319 Speaker 1: and it's probably my favorite place in the world. They 856 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,680 Speaker 1: have these water wheels that are like, I don't know, 857 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: they've mesmerized me. But that's another story entirely. We can 858 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,879 Speaker 1: be all sappy at another time. But I did want 859 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: to break up this massacre because most people have no 860 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: idea that it even happened. In February two as commander 861 00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,480 Speaker 1: of the defense companies that in fact allegedly commanded the 862 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 1: forces that put down a Muslim brotherhood revolt in the 863 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: central city of Hamma by instructing his forces to shell 864 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,440 Speaker 1: the city with rockets, and this killed thousands of its inhabitants. 865 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:15,600 Speaker 1: Reports range from between five thousand and forty thousand, but 866 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,160 Speaker 1: the most common suggestion is around fifteen to twenty thousand, 867 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: still a ship ton of people, and this became known 868 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 1: as the Hamma Massacre. A declassified document from the Defense 869 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency estimates the total number of casualties to be 870 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:37,320 Speaker 1: approximately two thousand. However, US journalist Thomas Friedman claims in 871 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,080 Speaker 1: his book From Beyroute to Jerusalem that I Fat later 872 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,880 Speaker 1: said the total number of victims was thirty eight thousand people. 873 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,080 Speaker 1: Thirty eight thousand people. The fact also played a key 874 00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,920 Speaker 1: role in his brother Hoppus's overthrow of saw Shadid and 875 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,440 Speaker 1: the seizure of power. This change in executive power is 876 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,759 Speaker 1: dug by some loyalists. At the Corrective Revolution, the Fat 877 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,000 Speaker 1: was allowed to form his own paramilitary group, the Defense Companies, 878 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,000 Speaker 1: in nine and this soon transformed into a powerful and 879 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: regular military force, trained and armed by the Soviet Union. 880 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,200 Speaker 1: He was a qualified paratrooper and he ran the elite 881 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: internal security Forces and the Defense Companies in the seventies 882 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,720 Speaker 1: and early eighties, but things changed when Haffas severed a 883 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,040 Speaker 1: heart attack in late eighty three. As he was recovering, 884 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,120 Speaker 1: Haffa's established a six member committee to run the country, 885 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,360 Speaker 1: but a fact was not included. The council consisted entirely 886 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,760 Speaker 1: of close Sunni Muslim loyalists to Haffa's, who were mostly 887 00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: lightweights in the military security establishment. This caused unease in 888 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: that that we dominated officer corps, and several high ranking 889 00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,160 Speaker 1: officers began rallying behind your Fat while others remained loyal 890 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 1: to Haffice's instructions. In March of eighty four, Fat's troops, 891 00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,960 Speaker 1: now numbering more than fifty five thousand, with tanks and artillery, 892 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,720 Speaker 1: ary aircraft and helicopters, they began a certain control over Damascus. 893 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,760 Speaker 1: A squadron of Defrats tanks took position at the central 894 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: roundabout of Cafu Souse in Mount Glassioun, overlooking the city, 895 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,200 Speaker 1: setting up checkpoints and roadblocks, putting up posters of him 896 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 1: in state buildings, disarming regular troops, and arbitrarily arresting soldiers 897 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: of the regular army, Occupying and commandeering police stations and 898 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 1: intelligence building. Occupying state buildings, the defense companies rapidly outnumbered 899 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: and took control over both the Special Forces and the 900 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:38,320 Speaker 1: Republican Guard. Although Damascus was divided between two armies and 901 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,720 Speaker 1: seemed to be on the brink of war, the Fact 902 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,800 Speaker 1: did not move. Papus was then informed that de Fact 903 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 1: was heading to Damascus, and he left his headquarters to 904 00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: meet his brother. British journalist Patrick Seal reports an intimate 905 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,000 Speaker 1: moment between these two brothers. He writes, at a Fact's 906 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,800 Speaker 1: home and the brothers were at last face to face. 907 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,760 Speaker 1: You want to overthrow the regime, Hafas asked, here I am, 908 00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,200 Speaker 1: I am the regime. For an hour they stormed at 909 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,840 Speaker 1: each other, but in his role of elder brother and 910 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,760 Speaker 1: with his mother in the house, Hafas could not fail 911 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,880 Speaker 1: to win the contest, Deferring to him at last, as 912 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 1: he had so often during their youths. The Fact chose 913 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,040 Speaker 1: to accept, although with some inward skepticism, halfics Is pledged 914 00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 1: that the trust between them would be restored and would 915 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: be the basis of their future work together. There was 916 00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,640 Speaker 1: a clear division and tensions between forces loyal to Haffa's, 917 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,840 Speaker 1: namely the Third Armored Division, the Republican Guard, the various 918 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,240 Speaker 1: intelligence services, the National Police and the Special forces. The 919 00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,000 Speaker 1: defense companies were so loyal to defact. In the middle 920 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,560 Speaker 1: of eighty four, Haffas had returned from his sick bed 921 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,560 Speaker 1: and assumed full control, at which point most officers rallied 922 00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,400 Speaker 1: around him. At first, it seemed like the Fact was 923 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,600 Speaker 1: going to be put on trial. He even faced a 924 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: questioning that was broadcast on television. However, it is believed 925 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,160 Speaker 1: the Hoffice's daughter Bushta, actually saved her uncle by convincing 926 01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,760 Speaker 1: her father that it would disgrace the family it might 927 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: cost tensions not only within the Assad family, but within 928 01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,720 Speaker 1: the Mahlu family as well. Both Haffas and Nafat had 929 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,240 Speaker 1: married women from the Mahu family, and they also just 930 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,760 Speaker 1: happened to be the second most prevalent Dilo white family 931 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,280 Speaker 1: dominating the leadership of the security services behind the Assads, 932 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,640 Speaker 1: and what first seemed like a compromise, the Fact was 933 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,640 Speaker 1: made vice president with responsibility for security affairs, but this 934 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,280 Speaker 1: proved to be simply a fancy title, and post command 935 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,120 Speaker 1: of the defense companies was trimmed down to an armored 936 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,760 Speaker 1: division size and was transferred to another officer, and the 937 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,920 Speaker 1: entire unit was ultimately disbanded and absorbed into other units. 938 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,000 Speaker 1: The Fat was then sent to the Soviet Union in 939 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,840 Speaker 1: an open ending working visit. His closest supporters and others 940 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,360 Speaker 1: who had failed to prove their loyalty to Haffa's were 941 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,600 Speaker 1: purged from the army and bath Party in the years 942 01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,600 Speaker 1: that followed. Upon his departure, de Fat acquired three d 943 01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:03,440 Speaker 1: million dollars of public money, including a hundred million Libyan money, 944 01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,840 Speaker 1: on a loan in two thousand fifteen. He claimed that 945 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,920 Speaker 1: the money was a gift from Crown Prince Albila Saudi Arabia, 946 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,680 Speaker 1: and although the fact returned to Syria for his mother's 947 01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,520 Speaker 1: funeral in nine two and for some time lived in Syria, 948 01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 1: he was thereafter confined to exile in France and Spain. 949 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,440 Speaker 1: He nominally retained the post of Vice President until February 950 01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,680 Speaker 1: of night, at which point he was stripped of this title. 951 01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,160 Speaker 1: He had retained a large business empire both in Syria 952 01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:39,400 Speaker 1: and abroad, partly through the Sun sum However, the nine Crackdown, 953 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,920 Speaker 1: involving armed clashes in the Takia, destroyed much of his 954 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,440 Speaker 1: remaining network. In Syria, large numbers of the Fat supporters 955 01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,680 Speaker 1: were arrested. This was seen as tied to the issue 956 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,240 Speaker 1: of succession, with our Fat having begun to position himself 957 01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,680 Speaker 1: to succeed the ailing Cofaz, who in his turn sought 958 01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,880 Speaker 1: to eliminate all potential competition for his designating successor, his 959 01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:05,600 Speaker 1: son Bashad. As in France, the Fat who is still alive, 960 01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,640 Speaker 1: has loudly protested against the succession of Bashad to the 961 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:13,439 Speaker 1: post of president, claiming that he himself embodies the only 962 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:19,560 Speaker 1: constitutional legality as previous vice president, alleging his dismissal as unconstitutional. 963 01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,920 Speaker 1: He has made threatening remarks about planning to return to 964 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,880 Speaker 1: Syria at a time of his choosing to assume his 965 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,200 Speaker 1: responsibilities and fulfill the will of the people, and that 966 01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,960 Speaker 1: while he will rule benevolently and democratically, he will do 967 01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 1: so with the power of the people and the army 968 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:39,680 Speaker 1: behind him. Anyway, de fats coup attempt to weaken the 969 01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:43,880 Speaker 1: institutionalized power structure on which Hafez based his rule. Instead 970 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,240 Speaker 1: of changing his policy, a sad try to protect his 971 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,520 Speaker 1: power by honing his governmental model. He then gave a 972 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:53,440 Speaker 1: larger role to Bassid, his oldest son, who was subsequently 973 01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:55,919 Speaker 1: rumored to be his father's plan successor at the time, 974 01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,920 Speaker 1: and this kindled jealousy within the government at a nineteen 975 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,640 Speaker 1: ninety four military meeting, the chief of staff said that 976 01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 1: since Assad wanted to normalize relations with Israel, the Syrian 977 01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,360 Speaker 1: military had to withdraw its troops from the Goal and Heights. 978 01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:13,960 Speaker 1: Ali Haidad replied angrily, we have become nonentities. We were 979 01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,200 Speaker 1: not even consulted. When he heard about his outburst, a 980 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,640 Speaker 1: Sad replaced him as commander of special Forces with the 981 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,800 Speaker 1: Ala White Major General Ali Habib had that also reportedly 982 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,520 Speaker 1: opposed dynastic succession, keeping his views secret until after Bassil's 983 01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: death in ninety four, and when a Sad chose but 984 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,040 Speaker 1: shadow said to succeed him, he then openly criticized as 985 01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:40,640 Speaker 1: sad succession plans. Okay, before we go back to let's 986 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,680 Speaker 1: take a quick break b rb Okay, so back to nine. 987 01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:48,760 Speaker 1: The regime had done everything in preparation for bast Sale 988 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:54,200 Speaker 1: to take power. However, on January one, while Bastard was 989 01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 1: driving his Mercedes at a high speed, and author Paul 990 01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,720 Speaker 1: Thorou reports that basket the way, driving a hundred and 991 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: fifty miles per hour. He was driving through dense fog 992 01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,360 Speaker 1: to Damascus International Airport for a flight to Frankfurt, Germany. 993 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,080 Speaker 1: He was on his way to a ski vacation in 994 01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,720 Speaker 1: the Alps in the early hours of the morning, and 995 01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,920 Speaker 1: it was then the Bassett collided with a barrier and 996 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,400 Speaker 1: not wearing a seatbelt, he died instantly. After his tragic death, 997 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,120 Speaker 1: the regime made sure to elevate the assad name. In 998 01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,480 Speaker 1: the process, shops, schools and public offices and Syria closed 999 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:31,600 Speaker 1: and the sale of alcohol was suspended. In respect, he 1000 01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,840 Speaker 1: was elevated by the state into the martyr of the country, 1001 01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,840 Speaker 1: the martyr of the nation and the symbol for its youth. 1002 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,880 Speaker 1: A great number of squares and streets were named after him, 1003 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,040 Speaker 1: the new international swimming complex, various hospitals, sporting clubs, and 1004 01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,360 Speaker 1: a military academy. The international airport in the tack Yet 1005 01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,640 Speaker 1: was named after him Basset Lead International Airport. His statue 1006 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,600 Speaker 1: was found in several Syrian cities, and even after his death, 1007 01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,520 Speaker 1: he's often pictured on billboards with his father and his brother. 1008 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,760 Speaker 1: He also has an equestrian statute in Aleppo. Even in 1009 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,560 Speaker 1: November of twenty a museum dedicated to him was no 1010 01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,120 Speaker 1: gy rated at the Attackia Sports City. Bassas untimely death 1011 01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,160 Speaker 1: obviously had unforeseen consequences. It led to his lesser known 1012 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,600 Speaker 1: brother Bashad to assume the mantle of president in waiting. 1013 01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,680 Speaker 1: At the time, he was content undertaking post graduate training 1014 01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:28,200 Speaker 1: and ophthalmology in London. Bashad was seen as the shy, 1015 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,280 Speaker 1: unassuming younger brother, and for his whole life up to 1016 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,960 Speaker 1: this point he was overshadowed by his father and its 1017 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,320 Speaker 1: older brother Bassett. But then suddenly he was fast tracked 1018 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,160 Speaker 1: on the path to succession. He was rushed to the 1019 01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,959 Speaker 1: military and the constitution changed so that the minimum age 1020 01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:48,320 Speaker 1: required of the president was not forty but thirty four, 1021 01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:52,600 Speaker 1: exactly Bashadow's age at the time. But Shadow became president 1022 01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:54,959 Speaker 1: following the death of his father, who died on June 1023 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,360 Speaker 1: tenth of two thousand. Bast sales posters and his name 1024 01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,040 Speaker 1: were also used to secure a smooth transition. After half 1025 01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,720 Speaker 1: said introduced the slogan Bastend the example, Bashad the Future. 1026 01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:10,920 Speaker 1: His quote unquote election was a yes or no referendum, 1027 01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,480 Speaker 1: a popular vote on whether the Syrian people wanted him 1028 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,160 Speaker 1: as their president, and so surprised he won with at 1029 01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,480 Speaker 1: least of the vote. So after the vote, Bashad is 1030 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,560 Speaker 1: sworn in and he's presented to his people as the savior, 1031 01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,640 Speaker 1: as the one who's going to open up Syria and 1032 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,400 Speaker 1: reform the system. Dr Basha, a son referred to him, 1033 01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,360 Speaker 1: was seen as the leader of the younger generation of Syria, 1034 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,280 Speaker 1: the standard bearer of modernization. But the regime was and 1035 01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,680 Speaker 1: stayed very cynical and was not at all sincere about 1036 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:44,720 Speaker 1: these reforms. However, Bashad performed his role and acted the part, 1037 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,840 Speaker 1: cracking down on corruption, reaching out to all sectors of 1038 01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:51,280 Speaker 1: Syrian society. Back in two thousands, some people were even 1039 01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,480 Speaker 1: calling this the Damascus Spring, and the Syrian people were 1040 01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: seeing things change, unaware that, as sam Docker puts it, 1041 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,080 Speaker 1: that Bashad is being mentored and tutored by people who 1042 01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,320 Speaker 1: have been empowered by his father to kill, torture, and 1043 01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,360 Speaker 1: disappear people because they had dared to speak out against 1044 01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,600 Speaker 1: the regime. These hard liners were grooming him and telling him, yes, 1045 01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,560 Speaker 1: you can present yourself as a softer version of your father, 1046 01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,600 Speaker 1: but no, then order to hang on to power, you 1047 01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,640 Speaker 1: have to be as ruthless as your father, if not more. 1048 01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,680 Speaker 1: Western governments had the impression that Bashad was someone they 1049 01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,120 Speaker 1: could do business with. He presented a modern, open minded 1050 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,040 Speaker 1: image and even hosted notable positions from around the world 1051 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,440 Speaker 1: in Damascus. Including Brad Pitt and Angeley and Jolie. The 1052 01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,520 Speaker 1: US and Europe accepted this perception because they believed that 1053 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:41,760 Speaker 1: it was in their best interest to do so, and 1054 01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:44,840 Speaker 1: to ensure that this image of Syrian leadership was being 1055 01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:49,200 Speaker 1: presented to the world. The regime was strategic having Bashad 1056 01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,440 Speaker 1: show that he was different from his father, even in 1057 01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,960 Speaker 1: the choice of who he married. In December of two 1058 01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,600 Speaker 1: thousand a, Sad married Esma as a British citizen of 1059 01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:02,200 Speaker 1: Syrian origin from a in London. She was much different 1060 01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 1: than serious previous first lady. She wasn't from the religious 1061 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,560 Speaker 1: sect that the Assads belonged to, the Allo Whites, who 1062 01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,880 Speaker 1: are still a religious minority. She is actually of a 1063 01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:15,720 Speaker 1: Sunni majority. Basha decided to marry someone who has lived 1064 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:19,200 Speaker 1: all her life abroad, as a British citizen, who was 1065 01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,880 Speaker 1: modern and assertive and had a career in investment banking 1066 01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,080 Speaker 1: and talked about going to Harvard for business school. She 1067 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:30,479 Speaker 1: was even featured in Vogue Come on barf. In an 1068 01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,000 Speaker 1: interview in two thousand five, Esma said, quote, the issue 1069 01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:36,800 Speaker 1: here is not how Muslim women decide to dress. The 1070 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,200 Speaker 1: issue is what Muslim women are doing in their society today, 1071 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:42,439 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how we dress or what we look like. 1072 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,400 Speaker 1: So hearing this and other things, Western leaders are looking 1073 01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,880 Speaker 1: at this modern educated couple, believing they are different and 1074 01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,559 Speaker 1: more importantly, that they are more suitable to their interests. 1075 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,120 Speaker 1: In the post nine eleven era, the United States was 1076 01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,040 Speaker 1: looking for allies in the so called War on Terror 1077 01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,280 Speaker 1: and said, as Sam Dagger stated in an interview quote, 1078 01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,360 Speaker 1: shared intelligence with the Americans and even tortured people on 1079 01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 1: behalf of the Americans. So the West had a vested 1080 01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:13,040 Speaker 1: interest to justify its engagement and cooperation with Bashad by 1081 01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,880 Speaker 1: saying he's a reformer. Opening up series economy was a 1082 01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:19,599 Speaker 1: big part of projecting an image of a reformed Syria. 1083 01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:24,120 Speaker 1: Before Basha took power, Serious economy was a centrally planned 1084 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,479 Speaker 1: economy also known as a command economy, which is an 1085 01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:31,479 Speaker 1: economic system where a government body makes economic decisions based 1086 01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,200 Speaker 1: on the production and distribution of goods. Serious economy was 1087 01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:38,400 Speaker 1: in the mold of the Soviet Union's economy, but when 1088 01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:42,040 Speaker 1: Basha took over, the economy began to change drastically. In 1089 01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's, a t m s were seen 1090 01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,559 Speaker 1: in Syria for the very first time and cell phone 1091 01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,120 Speaker 1: companies were established, and while the economy may have opened up, 1092 01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:53,639 Speaker 1: everything was still in control of the regime. I wanted 1093 01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:55,960 Speaker 1: to bring up something that my mom mentioned about the 1094 01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:59,719 Speaker 1: differences between Basha and Hafs and how they genuinely believed 1095 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,960 Speaker 1: he was going to bring modern change. He was doing 1096 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,040 Speaker 1: it all right on paper, but when Hoffas was in 1097 01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,519 Speaker 1: power in the early eighties or my mom was talking 1098 01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:14,360 Speaker 1: about her experience in the late eighties early nineties, apparently 1099 01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,000 Speaker 1: there were at least three Secret Service stations that monitored 1100 01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:23,360 Speaker 1: everyone in every neighborhood, three per neighborhood. And because my 1101 01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:25,920 Speaker 1: mom was going back and forth from America to Syria 1102 01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,720 Speaker 1: my father as well, they would send for my mom. 1103 01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:33,080 Speaker 1: They would request that she go to the Secret Service, 1104 01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,439 Speaker 1: and she was asked there about the Syrians. She knew 1105 01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:38,599 Speaker 1: in the States, what they were doing, what they did, 1106 01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,360 Speaker 1: who went to the mosque. She had to write everything 1107 01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,439 Speaker 1: she did in detail. She did this every time she 1108 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:46,760 Speaker 1: visited Syria, and my father went through the same thing. 1109 01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,760 Speaker 1: At one instant, she was saying that one time they 1110 01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,639 Speaker 1: left her alone in her room for three hours. Because 1111 01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,040 Speaker 1: they do this to purposely humiliate you. They make you 1112 01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:59,559 Speaker 1: anxious to make you scared. And this was just something 1113 01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,160 Speaker 1: of normal procedure that a lot of Syrians experienced, just 1114 01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:09,360 Speaker 1: constant terror. As I mentioned, it's a culture of fear, 1115 01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:11,479 Speaker 1: and this is one of the ways that they promoted that. 1116 01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,880 Speaker 1: But after Bashar took power, this changed. These places were 1117 01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:18,680 Speaker 1: taken down and it just genuinely looked like Bashad was 1118 01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,519 Speaker 1: an improvement. He studied in the West to open up 1119 01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:26,000 Speaker 1: the internet, because previously the internet was only allowed for news, 1120 01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:31,439 Speaker 1: and it just seemed promising. And before we get into 1121 01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:36,760 Speaker 1: anything further, let's take another break, b r B. We're back. 1122 01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,800 Speaker 1: In Sam Dagger's book assad Or Reburned the Country, he 1123 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:45,559 Speaker 1: describes how tightly controlled this new Syrian economy is. He writes, 1124 01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:50,600 Speaker 1: ten families run Syria and control everything. He continues to 1125 01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:53,960 Speaker 1: describe how this early period in Bashar's rule also brought 1126 01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:59,040 Speaker 1: the rise of another figures cousin. He is related to 1127 01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:01,320 Speaker 1: the assad family through his mother, who was the sister 1128 01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:06,400 Speaker 1: of Anissa mahluf Tops wife, so she's Bashar's aunt. Rabbi 1129 01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:10,600 Speaker 1: Mahaluf's personal wealth accumulated abroad was estimated to be in 1130 01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:15,160 Speaker 1: the excess of ten billion. In his father Mohammed Mahlouf 1131 01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:18,640 Speaker 1: played the role of the regime's financier, basically haf as 1132 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,840 Speaker 1: his money man. As Bashad said, became President Mahluf's son 1133 01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:28,439 Speaker 1: Rami inherited this business empire and became this new tycoon 1134 01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:31,040 Speaker 1: in Syria. He was the person who made sure that 1135 01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,320 Speaker 1: any economic opening would benefit and enrich the Astad family. 1136 01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:37,759 Speaker 1: Before the Syrian Civil War started in early two thousand 1137 01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,120 Speaker 1: and eleven, he was considered one of the wealthiest and 1138 01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,720 Speaker 1: most powerful men in Syria and controlled nearly sixty of 1139 01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:48,240 Speaker 1: the economy, including industries of real estate and telecommunication, aviation, 1140 01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:52,840 Speaker 1: the dairy industry, tourism, electricity, and oil trading. According to 1141 01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,200 Speaker 1: Syrian analysts, he is part of an inner circle and 1142 01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:58,880 Speaker 1: no foreign company could do business in Syria at the 1143 01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:03,280 Speaker 1: time without its scent and partnership. The last French ambassador 1144 01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,120 Speaker 1: to Syria had lunch with Rommie Ones and described him 1145 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:10,160 Speaker 1: as acting as quote the king of Syria, puffing cigars 1146 01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,439 Speaker 1: and saying I'm in control and everything happens through me. 1147 01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,879 Speaker 1: Fast forward to our present day, the economy has completely 1148 01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:21,240 Speaker 1: collapsed ever since the uprising started in early thousand eleven. 1149 01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,679 Speaker 1: It could be seen as an accumulation of the past decade. 1150 01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:28,280 Speaker 1: Syria's sanction hit economy had always relied on Lebanon to 1151 01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:31,000 Speaker 1: sustain itself, but in the fall of twenty and nineteen, 1152 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,040 Speaker 1: Lebanon had its own crises, and it was an economic 1153 01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,800 Speaker 1: and political turmoil which forced banks to control access to 1154 01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:43,360 Speaker 1: cash and prevent transfers abroad. Dagger explains, Lebanon has always 1155 01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,560 Speaker 1: served as this economic pressure valve, not only for the 1156 01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:50,120 Speaker 1: regime but also for average Syrians. A lot of Syrians 1157 01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:53,519 Speaker 1: had their savings, their life savings, and Lebanese banks. One 1158 01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,479 Speaker 1: analyst told me that Syrians had one billion dollars in 1159 01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:00,240 Speaker 1: deposits in Syria itself versus forty billion dollars of Ayrian 1160 01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:03,519 Speaker 1: deposits in Lebanon. And then what happens in Lebanon. The 1161 01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,400 Speaker 1: whole banking system crashes, There are protests in the streets 1162 01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,960 Speaker 1: of Lebanon, that outlet that Syrians had shuts down, and 1163 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:14,120 Speaker 1: the situation becomes progressively worse than Syria. The value of 1164 01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:18,240 Speaker 1: the Syrian lira had also extremely diminished and continues to 1165 01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:22,400 Speaker 1: trying to recover from this plummet of the Syrian economy. 1166 01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,639 Speaker 1: But Shadow turned to capitalists that he had empowered twenty 1167 01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:30,040 Speaker 1: years prior, including his cousin Rabbi Mhlouf, but Shad asked 1168 01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:33,360 Speaker 1: romy for two hundred and thirty million dollars, specifically in 1169 01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:37,560 Speaker 1: back taxes. It was described essentially as being a shakedown. 1170 01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,920 Speaker 1: The world saw this as a huge falling out between 1171 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:45,160 Speaker 1: Syria's richest man and its president, a dictator, but shadow 1172 01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:50,120 Speaker 1: sent Other prominent businessmen, not just Ramy, were also targeted, 1173 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:52,960 Speaker 1: and they all quietly agreed to pay whatever the regime 1174 01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,040 Speaker 1: was asking for. The economy was an in dire state 1175 01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,639 Speaker 1: and the regime urgently needed cash, so the government asked 1176 01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:02,000 Speaker 1: for myn from the businessmen and had empowered in the 1177 01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,439 Speaker 1: first place, and most of them comply but not run. 1178 01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:11,200 Speaker 1: In June, Mahluf stated that he would quote quit the 1179 01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:16,560 Speaker 1: Syrian business scene. On May one, Mahaleuf made an unprecedented 1180 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:20,200 Speaker 1: public appeal to his cousin. He made this appeal on Facebook, 1181 01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:23,400 Speaker 1: saying that officials were seeking to seize his assets as 1182 01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:26,400 Speaker 1: he was pressured to hand over an excess of one 1183 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,840 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty billion. I think it's what all those 1184 01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,720 Speaker 1: zeros mean. An excess of add thirty billion liras due 1185 01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:37,880 Speaker 1: to tax evasion, Mahlouf, who was a part of the 1186 01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:41,120 Speaker 1: Shadow Sets inner circle, said he would pay the president himself, 1187 01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:44,800 Speaker 1: but not the state. Two days later, he posted another 1188 01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:48,040 Speaker 1: video on Facebook where he mentioned that Syrian security forces 1189 01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,559 Speaker 1: arrested some of his employees. He said, how could they 1190 01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:53,920 Speaker 1: do this when I was their biggest supporter and their 1191 01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:58,639 Speaker 1: biggest servant during the war. However, speculations indicate the Assyrian 1192 01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:02,679 Speaker 1: First Lady Sma Assent had been responsible for this whole plot, 1193 01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:06,160 Speaker 1: the reason being that quote to many businessmen loyal to 1194 01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:10,559 Speaker 1: Esthima competed with Mahloof for control of diminishing resources after 1195 01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,840 Speaker 1: collapse of the Syrian Pound, along with sanctions, made the 1196 01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:17,120 Speaker 1: space in which they compete narrow and difficult. This is 1197 01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:21,519 Speaker 1: according to Dr Mohan A. Hejudi, a researcher at the 1198 01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,559 Speaker 1: Carnegie Middle East Center. In addition, the Syrian authorities might 1199 01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,880 Speaker 1: have targeted Mahlouf in order to find resources prior to 1200 01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,400 Speaker 1: the implementation of U S sanctions related to the Caesar Act. 1201 01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:36,880 Speaker 1: On May seventy, Mahlouf posted another video on Facebook where 1202 01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,880 Speaker 1: he mentioned rising pressure on him to handover profits or 1203 01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:43,839 Speaker 1: he might be arrested. On May nineteenth, the Syrian government 1204 01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:47,080 Speaker 1: seized all assets belonging to Mahlouf. On the twenty one, 1205 01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:51,439 Speaker 1: a Syrian court placed a temporary travel banna Mahlouf. On June, 1206 01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,639 Speaker 1: the Syrian government terminated duty free contracts in all ports 1207 01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:01,200 Speaker 1: and border crossings with companies affiliated with Mahouf. This drama 1208 01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:03,960 Speaker 1: between Bashad and Rommi resulted in talks of a rift 1209 01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,800 Speaker 1: in the regime's inner circle, and people were concerned that 1210 01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,400 Speaker 1: this would expose a rift in the Allo White community itself, 1211 01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,519 Speaker 1: which had supplied the bulk of the fighting forces for 1212 01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:16,439 Speaker 1: the regime. Because in these Facebook videos, Rammi wasn't only 1213 01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,920 Speaker 1: appealing to his cousin, his patron with whom he built 1214 01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:23,639 Speaker 1: a twenty year symbiotic relationship with. He was also appealing 1215 01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,799 Speaker 1: to the average members of their religious sect, the Allo Whites, 1216 01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,840 Speaker 1: most of whom are nowhere near the wealth of the 1217 01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:33,720 Speaker 1: Assad family's inner circle. He was tongued Allowhites that we 1218 01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,920 Speaker 1: had sacrificed everything for the regime and our sons were 1219 01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:39,320 Speaker 1: killed in order for the regime to remain in power, 1220 01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,000 Speaker 1: and instead of being rewarded for the fruits of this, 1221 01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:45,000 Speaker 1: the regime was going after an important figure who has 1222 01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,040 Speaker 1: been instrumental in supporting people through his business a k 1223 01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:51,680 Speaker 1: a Rommi himself, and it wasn't necessarily untrue, but he 1224 01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:55,799 Speaker 1: wasn't helping people for free obviously, and Johnny had expected 1225 01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:59,599 Speaker 1: people to remain loyal to him despite all of this. Basically, 1226 01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,600 Speaker 1: the Assad family had finished devouring the Syrian state and 1227 01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,000 Speaker 1: its resources, and it had now started to devour each other. 1228 01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:13,240 Speaker 1: As of of Syrians live in poverty and are unemployed. 1229 01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:17,679 Speaker 1: There's unrelenting inflation, and basic goods have doubled or tripled 1230 01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:23,200 Speaker 1: in price, rice, flour, sugar, coffee. Everything has become obscenely expensive. 1231 01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:27,360 Speaker 1: There's hardly any meat, and gas is priced in American dollars, 1232 01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:31,679 Speaker 1: which you can only imagine how high that goes. When 1233 01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:34,200 Speaker 1: my family and I talks to our Familure members that 1234 01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,599 Speaker 1: are still in Syria, we hear about the electricity being 1235 01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:40,800 Speaker 1: out for days and weeks, and then the water being 1236 01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,439 Speaker 1: out for the same amount of time, and the people 1237 01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:47,360 Speaker 1: are essentially being suffocated by their own government. People are 1238 01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:51,799 Speaker 1: questioned and tortured and kept in prisons for absolutely no reason, 1239 01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,240 Speaker 1: and the only way they can get out is by 1240 01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:58,639 Speaker 1: bribing the prisons thousands of dollars for no reason. It's 1241 01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,160 Speaker 1: just about greed, it's about power, it's about terrible people. 1242 01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:08,280 Speaker 1: These monsters just destroying this beautiful place. Syria is so beautiful, 1243 01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:12,200 Speaker 1: and I just my heart breaks for the land and 1244 01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:17,200 Speaker 1: for the people. So although the A Sad regime continues 1245 01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:20,920 Speaker 1: to present itself as the ultimate and only power in Syria, 1246 01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:24,320 Speaker 1: Bashad has actually been at his weakest point in the 1247 01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:27,799 Speaker 1: last two years. He is only still in his position 1248 01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,760 Speaker 1: because the Russians and Iranians want him to be there, 1249 01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,240 Speaker 1: and he's only able to maintain his role by playing 1250 01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:37,880 Speaker 1: off his two patrons against each other, Iran and Russia. 1251 01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,680 Speaker 1: This is a regime that always derived its power from 1252 01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,559 Speaker 1: the army and from the security forces, but the army 1253 01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:47,960 Speaker 1: largely does not exist anymore. Yes, there are divisions that 1254 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,080 Speaker 1: are trained by the Russians in an attempt to put 1255 01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:53,439 Speaker 1: this army back together, but even the loyalists who support 1256 01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:55,759 Speaker 1: the Shadow said don't want to join the army anymore. 1257 01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,360 Speaker 1: They would rather leave the country. So the regime's only 1258 01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:03,880 Speaker 1: option left is to continue to rule by fear. This 1259 01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:06,320 Speaker 1: has had mixed results, especially when you look at the 1260 01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:11,519 Speaker 1: uprisings that have continued since. However much they have dissipated people, 1261 01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:15,320 Speaker 1: put themselves on the streets, not hiding their identities, vocally 1262 01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:18,439 Speaker 1: and loudly opposing the regime and demanding for the removal 1263 01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:21,760 Speaker 1: of the shadow. At this behavior, as we've seen, it's 1264 01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:24,479 Speaker 1: unacceptable by the regime and it's led to the regime 1265 01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:28,559 Speaker 1: all but destroying its own country. Estimates of the total 1266 01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,960 Speaker 1: number of deaths in the Syrian Civil War by opposition 1267 01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:36,160 Speaker 1: activist groups vary between five hundred thousand people and six 1268 01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:40,400 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people as of March. And I think it's 1269 01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:46,000 Speaker 1: really notable that Syrians are vocally expressing their outrage and 1270 01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,400 Speaker 1: there's just a history there of so much trauma. In 1271 01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:53,000 Speaker 1: two thousand five, for example, my mother was telling me 1272 01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:57,360 Speaker 1: that a list of demands, so like what's math six 1273 01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:00,560 Speaker 1: years after the first uprisings occurred in twenty oven. In 1274 01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,200 Speaker 1: two thousand five, a list of demands or corrections um 1275 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:07,280 Speaker 1: were written down the things that people wanted to fix 1276 01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:11,200 Speaker 1: of the government, free press, free expression, they wanted to 1277 01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,800 Speaker 1: make the government and democracy. And Bashad allowed them to 1278 01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,680 Speaker 1: list their demands and what they wanted to fix and 1279 01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,839 Speaker 1: handed over to him to look at. Essentially an Arabic 1280 01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:26,040 Speaker 1: this is called eland mushk and it seemed like maybe 1281 01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:30,400 Speaker 1: an open conversation could happen. But then everyone who signed 1282 01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:34,719 Speaker 1: this petition was looked up, hunted down, sent to jail, 1283 01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:38,080 Speaker 1: some for decades and some people that are still there, 1284 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,840 Speaker 1: and others fled the country after they started collecting people. 1285 01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:45,320 Speaker 1: This Ellen de Musk was the beginning of the end. 1286 01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,120 Speaker 1: It was the end of the few liberties that people 1287 01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:53,679 Speaker 1: thought would come when took power. He named everyone who signed, 1288 01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,000 Speaker 1: everyone who supported the newspeople to press as terrorists. And 1289 01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:01,200 Speaker 1: I think in spite of that, six years later there 1290 01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:05,400 Speaker 1: was still an uprising. It was an accumulated need to 1291 01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,479 Speaker 1: fight back. And so going back to that saying that 1292 01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,639 Speaker 1: a SAD loyalists spray paint on the cities, that SAD 1293 01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:14,960 Speaker 1: has demolished a Sad or we burned the country, it 1294 01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:18,880 Speaker 1: seems like both choices have come true. The shadows Set 1295 01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:21,280 Speaker 1: has stayed in power, and he's also burned the country 1296 01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:24,160 Speaker 1: to the ground. And the more he stays in power, 1297 01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:28,200 Speaker 1: the worst life gets for Syrians. The country is destroyed, 1298 01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:32,120 Speaker 1: families are shattered, and many many people have died. The 1299 01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,920 Speaker 1: cost is insurmountable. But a lot of Syrians don't see 1300 01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:39,800 Speaker 1: this fight as over their injustices and grievances remain the same, 1301 01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:45,160 Speaker 1: even after experiencing indescribable horrors over the past twelve years. 1302 01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:50,719 Speaker 1: Syrian people, like all people, they want dignity, they want justice, 1303 01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:54,280 Speaker 1: and they can no longer accept living in this inhumane 1304 01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,360 Speaker 1: system where your most basic rights as a human being 1305 01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:02,439 Speaker 1: depend on your proximity to power. Anyway, this is Sharine. 1306 01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:07,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. I sincerely appreciate your time and 1307 01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:25,240 Speaker 1: I'll see you. Welcome to it could happen here the 1308 01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:27,439 Speaker 1: podcast about the world falling apart and how we can 1309 01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:31,000 Speaker 1: put it back together again. I'm your host, Christopher Wong. Now. 1310 01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,000 Speaker 1: Three months ago we covered Great Abbot's attempt to shut 1311 01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,000 Speaker 1: down the border and how he was forced basically to 1312 01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:38,920 Speaker 1: back down by a Mexican trucker strike. And in that 1313 01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:41,840 Speaker 1: episode we mentioned that Abbot's newest stunt was deporting people 1314 01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,080 Speaker 1: from Texas to Washington, d C. To make Biden look 1315 01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:47,880 Speaker 1: bad by you know, moving the problem to him. And 1316 01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,680 Speaker 1: as a political stunt, this has largely failed as a 1317 01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,439 Speaker 1: humanitarian disaster, inflicting untold human misery on completely innocent people. 1318 01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,680 Speaker 1: It is still continuing to unfold, and here today to 1319 01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:01,519 Speaker 1: talk about this with US is Amy Fish with Sanctuary 1320 01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,439 Speaker 1: d m V and the Migrant Solidarity Mutual Aid Network. Amy, 1321 01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:06,160 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us and welcome to the show. 1322 01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:09,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. So excited to 1323 01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:13,720 Speaker 1: be here. Yeah, um, somewhat less excited that this is 1324 01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:19,559 Speaker 1: happening because dear God. Yeah. So, I guess to start off, 1325 01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:22,000 Speaker 1: do you want to tell us a bit about what's 1326 01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,920 Speaker 1: been I guess how this started in what the sort 1327 01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:27,920 Speaker 1: of initial reaction and non reaction of the d C 1328 01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:33,839 Speaker 1: government has been. Sure so, Um, in April, Governor Abbott 1329 01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:40,080 Speaker 1: started bussing people from the border to d C. Um. 1330 01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:44,360 Speaker 1: We knew from the get go that this was a 1331 01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:49,080 Speaker 1: racist publicity stunt, um, particularly because the first few busses 1332 01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:52,559 Speaker 1: were dropped off right in front of the Fox News building. UM, 1333 01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:57,080 Speaker 1: and we all initially thought it was going to be 1334 01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:03,760 Speaker 1: a few weeks of bussing people. And here we are, 1335 01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,120 Speaker 1: um in the middle of July, and the buses have 1336 01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:14,360 Speaker 1: kept coming. Um. Buses arrive to d C basically every 1337 01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:19,040 Speaker 1: single day of the week except for UM Monday evenings 1338 01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:24,479 Speaker 1: and Tuesday mornings, and there have been probably around thirty 1339 01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:31,400 Speaker 1: people bussed from Texas to d C. And uh not 1340 01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:37,000 Speaker 1: too long after Governor Juicy of Arizona started doing the 1341 01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:40,760 Speaker 1: same thing and bussing people from the Arizona border to 1342 01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:46,639 Speaker 1: d C, and the d C government has basically been 1343 01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:51,360 Speaker 1: unwilling to grapple with the reality of what's happening. You know, 1344 01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:57,840 Speaker 1: people are arriving to d C with very very little resources, 1345 01:25:58,080 --> 01:26:00,960 Speaker 1: typically like the clothes on their act. Sometimes they don't 1346 01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:03,000 Speaker 1: even have shoes on their feet when they get off 1347 01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:08,080 Speaker 1: the buses. And it's been, um, kind of amazing to 1348 01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:11,320 Speaker 1: see the way that the DC community has responded. It's 1349 01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:16,080 Speaker 1: been like the type of response that makes me remarkably 1350 01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:20,840 Speaker 1: proud of being a DC resident and being from the area. 1351 01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:25,599 Speaker 1: And also, um, it's something that the d C government 1352 01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:32,360 Speaker 1: is turning in a blind eye to um and pretending like, um, 1353 01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,479 Speaker 1: the reality that we are seeing when we are talking 1354 01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:38,640 Speaker 1: to people that are getting off the buses day in 1355 01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:41,920 Speaker 1: and day out, it's just it's like entirely different from 1356 01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:48,080 Speaker 1: what you know, the DC mayor is saying about the situation. Yeah, 1357 01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:50,640 Speaker 1: and I guess, well, okay, so before we talk, I 1358 01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:57,519 Speaker 1: guess fully about the DC governments just catastrophic. I don't 1359 01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,240 Speaker 1: even want to know if I want to say incompetence 1360 01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:02,880 Speaker 1: so much is just like we'll just let these people suffer. UM, 1361 01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:04,840 Speaker 1: Can we talk a bit about what what what the 1362 01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,160 Speaker 1: community responses looked like and what y'all have been doing. Sure, 1363 01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:10,400 Speaker 1: so maybe to back up a little bit to to 1364 01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:14,200 Speaker 1: tell you about sort of like what the experiences of 1365 01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:16,479 Speaker 1: the people that are getting off the buses. These are 1366 01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:20,559 Speaker 1: people that are typically UM coming to the United States 1367 01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,920 Speaker 1: to seek asylum. They're being processed at the border for 1368 01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:28,080 Speaker 1: a few days, and I think what like have been 1369 01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:32,240 Speaker 1: commonly started to be referred to as like the Pereiras 1370 01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:35,040 Speaker 1: and Jeleras at the border, so like the dog cannels, 1371 01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:37,040 Speaker 1: the ice boxes, and the at the border and that 1372 01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:42,280 Speaker 1: are being paroled into the country. And um, so the 1373 01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:48,080 Speaker 1: Customs and Border Protections CDP is releasing these folks to 1374 01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:52,880 Speaker 1: UM like respite centers type of places at the border. 1375 01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:56,639 Speaker 1: UM in Texas. Most of the folks are coming from 1376 01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:02,160 Speaker 1: Del Rio and Eagle Path, UM. And then they're being 1377 01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:04,880 Speaker 1: told that there's these free busses to d C. And 1378 01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:07,720 Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit mind boggling because we know 1379 01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:14,200 Speaker 1: that Governor Abbott is doing these bus this bussing purely 1380 01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:20,439 Speaker 1: out of the most like racist xenophobic intentions. And also 1381 01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,400 Speaker 1: for many of the folks, it's a free bus to 1382 01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:27,000 Speaker 1: to get to where they're trying to go. And so 1383 01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:29,800 Speaker 1: people are riding on the buses arriving in d C 1384 01:28:31,479 --> 01:28:37,000 Speaker 1: and then you know, many of them are trying to 1385 01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:41,040 Speaker 1: get to other places along the East coast UM and 1386 01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:46,760 Speaker 1: many are planning on staying in d C UM. And 1387 01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:53,559 Speaker 1: so what has happened is we've um developed a massive 1388 01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:58,320 Speaker 1: mutual aid response, which has been super cool. So you know, 1389 01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:02,920 Speaker 1: we have of a crew of volunteers that meet the 1390 01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:07,680 Speaker 1: buses when they arrive UM at Union Station. And if 1391 01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:10,599 Speaker 1: you're not familiar with d C, Union Station is sort 1392 01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:13,280 Speaker 1: of the big transit center and in the middle of 1393 01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:18,680 Speaker 1: d C UM actually relatively close to where the capital is. UM. 1394 01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,679 Speaker 1: It's sort of like the DC equivalent of like Penn 1395 01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:24,400 Speaker 1: Station in New York or something like that. UM. And 1396 01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:27,479 Speaker 1: so they're dropped off in front of Union Station. We 1397 01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:32,640 Speaker 1: have folks that will welcome them and UM typically we 1398 01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:37,320 Speaker 1: bring to folks to uh different churches around the area 1399 01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:40,320 Speaker 1: that have opened up their spaces as respite centers for us, 1400 01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:44,080 Speaker 1: and we uh you know, sit down with folks, we 1401 01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:48,160 Speaker 1: offer them some food and really try and talk through 1402 01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,120 Speaker 1: what their needs are and help them as best as 1403 01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:54,360 Speaker 1: we can meet those needs, whether it is you know, 1404 01:29:54,720 --> 01:30:00,360 Speaker 1: folks may have UM medical or like trauma they need 1405 01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:04,120 Speaker 1: to work through UM. Maybe they're trying to get to 1406 01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:07,280 Speaker 1: New York, and so we'll help them, you know, communicate 1407 01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:09,400 Speaker 1: with family members or help them find their way to 1408 01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:12,640 Speaker 1: New York. We you know, for the folks that are 1409 01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:16,120 Speaker 1: staying in d C, we've done our best to help them, 1410 01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, find a way to kind of get settled 1411 01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:21,680 Speaker 1: and put down roots in their new community, getting them 1412 01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:26,920 Speaker 1: connected to community members that help them you know, navigate 1413 01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:29,800 Speaker 1: DC to to them how to use the metro, help 1414 01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:32,800 Speaker 1: them get to their you know, check in appointments as 1415 01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:35,280 Speaker 1: they're you know having to jump through all of the 1416 01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:38,760 Speaker 1: hoops of ice and being surveilled by the state, and 1417 01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:43,640 Speaker 1: and helping them you know, have access to lawyers to 1418 01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:46,640 Speaker 1: explain their legal process and really just kind of like 1419 01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:51,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, I took a dude to to Target 1420 01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:54,000 Speaker 1: to be to like help them get go shopping, and 1421 01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, took folks to get uh, just like the 1422 01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:02,000 Speaker 1: random stuff that people need when they arrive in a 1423 01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:04,640 Speaker 1: new place in the same way that, Like, I don't know, 1424 01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:06,600 Speaker 1: if I had a friend moving to d C, I 1425 01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:08,439 Speaker 1: would be like, Hey, what do you need? Like how 1426 01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:10,320 Speaker 1: can I help you get to know this place? Like 1427 01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:13,439 Speaker 1: this is how our bike share program works, like just 1428 01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:19,040 Speaker 1: the most basic welcome, get settled. Can we talk a 1429 01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:21,519 Speaker 1: little bit more about what the sort of legal process 1430 01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:23,400 Speaker 1: looks like here and what like, for example, like explain 1431 01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:29,639 Speaker 1: what check ins are and yeah, so, UM, the folks 1432 01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:33,960 Speaker 1: that are arriving are being paroled in UM and so 1433 01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:38,639 Speaker 1: basically what it means is that they are then under 1434 01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:44,360 Speaker 1: surveillance from the federal government UM from ICE, which is 1435 01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:49,200 Speaker 1: Immigration and Customs Enforcement, And what that looks like is 1436 01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:53,439 Speaker 1: a little bit of a crapshoot. UM. So many many 1437 01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,800 Speaker 1: of the folks are UM at the border given cell 1438 01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:02,519 Speaker 1: phones UM that have tracking on them, and so with 1439 01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:05,000 Speaker 1: that cell phone, they're being tracked by the government. They 1440 01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:08,400 Speaker 1: basically have to take like selfies ever so often to 1441 01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:12,680 Speaker 1: UM check in and then they're basically being enrolled in 1442 01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:16,840 Speaker 1: this program called i APP, which is the I can't 1443 01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:21,080 Speaker 1: remember the acronym, it's it's a supervision program. And so 1444 01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,680 Speaker 1: they have to go to an ICE office once they 1445 01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:29,200 Speaker 1: arrive in whatever city that they're arriving to UM. Oftentimes 1446 01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:32,200 Speaker 1: they're being asked to turn in the I the ICE 1447 01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:34,760 Speaker 1: cell phones and having to download an app on their 1448 01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:37,559 Speaker 1: cell phones. If they don't have a cell phone, they 1449 01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,360 Speaker 1: might be given an ankle monitor or what many of 1450 01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:43,679 Speaker 1: the Spanish speakers called like a great They be basically 1451 01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:49,200 Speaker 1: like an ankle shackle UM for electronic monitoring. They'll have 1452 01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:53,080 Speaker 1: UM officers you know, show up at their house, so 1453 01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:56,439 Speaker 1: sometimes they have to you know, be at home from 1454 01:32:56,640 --> 01:32:59,919 Speaker 1: seven am to seven pm so that you know, Immigration 1455 01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:02,120 Speaker 1: and come come buy and make sure that they're like 1456 01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:07,560 Speaker 1: still there. And basically that part of the program is 1457 01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:11,400 Speaker 1: entirely so the government can keep a track of where 1458 01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,120 Speaker 1: these folks are. It has nothing to do with like 1459 01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:17,640 Speaker 1: the actual legal process that they are trying to go 1460 01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:20,760 Speaker 1: through to to be able to stay here permanently. So 1461 01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:24,080 Speaker 1: separate and apart from that, the vast majority of these 1462 01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:27,560 Speaker 1: folks are asylum seekers. And so what that means is 1463 01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:30,760 Speaker 1: that you know, once they're here, they have a year 1464 01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,960 Speaker 1: to apply for asylum and then they're thrust into the 1465 01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:40,200 Speaker 1: like totally broken asylum system that has you know, years 1466 01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:43,000 Speaker 1: long backlogs and things like that, and so then they'll 1467 01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:47,000 Speaker 1: be basically trying to find a way to um get 1468 01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:51,200 Speaker 1: an asylum grant to be able to stay here permanently 1469 01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:55,840 Speaker 1: while also navigating the surveillance that's happening on the ICE 1470 01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:00,759 Speaker 1: side of things are so I know, something that happens 1471 01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:04,240 Speaker 1: with like I guess regular prison a lot are people 1472 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:08,640 Speaker 1: being forced to pay for the ankle bracelets, which is 1473 01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:14,680 Speaker 1: which is like from their minimum But yeahs, I mean, 1474 01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:18,120 Speaker 1: I will say that we've one of the issues that 1475 01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:22,519 Speaker 1: we have started, um sort of trying to figure out 1476 01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:27,080 Speaker 1: how to navigate, is that what we're seeing is people, 1477 01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:29,759 Speaker 1: you know, they get the ICE cell phones at the border, 1478 01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:32,040 Speaker 1: and then at their check in they're supposed to turn 1479 01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:34,439 Speaker 1: in the ICE cell phones and then download this at 1480 01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:39,240 Speaker 1: this surveillance app on their phone. Um, many folks don't 1481 01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:42,240 Speaker 1: have a cell phone or the app only works if 1482 01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:45,560 Speaker 1: you have I think a five G phone, So you 1483 01:34:45,920 --> 01:34:48,839 Speaker 1: basically have to have like the fanciest of the phones, 1484 01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:53,120 Speaker 1: which if you're an asylum secret and you just risked 1485 01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:56,240 Speaker 1: it all to come here to seek safety and you 1486 01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:00,120 Speaker 1: don't really have a support in the US, and now 1487 01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:02,719 Speaker 1: you're being told that you have to have this super 1488 01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:08,360 Speaker 1: fancy phone or you get an inkle shackle. It's it's 1489 01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:12,439 Speaker 1: just kind of a ridiculous thing knowing that it's okay, 1490 01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:15,360 Speaker 1: maybe you're privileged enough to be able to be surveilled 1491 01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:17,640 Speaker 1: on your own personal cell phone or you just have 1492 01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,559 Speaker 1: to have an ankle shackle at all time. So much 1493 01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:23,160 Speaker 1: of this process just like it really feels just like 1494 01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:26,320 Speaker 1: it's it's just it's surveillance just sort of for the 1495 01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:30,720 Speaker 1: purpose of humiliation. It's surveillance for the purpose of humiliation. 1496 01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:38,679 Speaker 1: It's surveillance for the sake of some Um. This idea 1497 01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:44,479 Speaker 1: that we've been dealing with in the US since September eleven, 1498 01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:51,479 Speaker 1: that uh, immigration is a national security concern that you know, 1499 01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:55,599 Speaker 1: if if immigrants aren't being surveilled twenty four hours it did, 1500 01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:59,280 Speaker 1: then like lord knows what they could do. Um. When 1501 01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:01,320 Speaker 1: the reality is is these are folks that are just 1502 01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:07,040 Speaker 1: like normal people trying to live their best lives. UM. 1503 01:36:07,400 --> 01:36:10,440 Speaker 1: And I also think how I think it's really important 1504 01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:15,000 Speaker 1: to say how much of this is also entirely based 1505 01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:22,320 Speaker 1: on government funding and availability That so oftentimes the decision 1506 01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:25,880 Speaker 1: as to what kind of surveillance you're under is based 1507 01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:32,240 Speaker 1: upon what is available, um, based on contracts with you know, 1508 01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:36,120 Speaker 1: private surveillance companies and private prison companies that have a 1509 01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:44,800 Speaker 1: surveillance arm and things like that. It's it's entirely profit driven. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Again, 1510 01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:47,320 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about prisons. It's just like, yeah, I 1511 01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:50,200 Speaker 1: mean literally literally the same companies doing this kind of 1512 01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:54,000 Speaker 1: stuff and how Yeah, and like I think, I don't know, 1513 01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:57,960 Speaker 1: there's there's this kind of like I mean, I guess 1514 01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,519 Speaker 1: people it's just a prison industrial complex. But yeah, there's 1515 01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:03,240 Speaker 1: this whole there's a sort of like state private sector 1516 01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:06,040 Speaker 1: complex at both feed on each other where you have 1517 01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:08,120 Speaker 1: these companies taking federal money to do stuff. You have 1518 01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:10,720 Speaker 1: these companies who are like have figured out ways to 1519 01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:15,560 Speaker 1: extract like money from the people that they're suvailing. And 1520 01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,960 Speaker 1: I guess, okay, keep keeping on the thread of the 1521 01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:25,120 Speaker 1: state making people's lives miserable. Um, yeah, so Muriel Bowser 1522 01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:29,200 Speaker 1: not doing anything. Yeah, we're talking about that a bit. 1523 01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:35,840 Speaker 1: So Mariel Bowser's messaging that we have received has evolved 1524 01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:40,360 Speaker 1: a little bit here and there. So sometimes she says 1525 01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:43,200 Speaker 1: that the majority of people that are getting off the 1526 01:37:43,280 --> 01:37:46,800 Speaker 1: bus have everything they need and have families supporting them, 1527 01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:49,519 Speaker 1: and so there actually is no reason for the government 1528 01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:53,880 Speaker 1: to step forward because these people already have all of 1529 01:37:54,000 --> 01:38:01,679 Speaker 1: their needs met, which I would say maybe one person 1530 01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:05,080 Speaker 1: or one family ever every few days has someone that's 1531 01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:07,599 Speaker 1: you know, ready to meet them when they step off 1532 01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:10,800 Speaker 1: the bus, but the vast majority of people don't. And 1533 01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:15,160 Speaker 1: I would say that we're seeing an ever increasing amount 1534 01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:18,360 Speaker 1: of people that don't have anybody in the United States, 1535 01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:21,920 Speaker 1: and so they really are in need of a lot 1536 01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:26,760 Speaker 1: of supports to help them really figure out their way 1537 01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:32,000 Speaker 1: here because they don't have cousins or family friends or 1538 01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:36,040 Speaker 1: extended family, whatever it may be, to help them, you know, 1539 01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,479 Speaker 1: put down roots in the in their new communities. UM. 1540 01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:44,639 Speaker 1: And in recent weeks her messaging has shifted a little 1541 01:38:44,680 --> 01:38:49,360 Speaker 1: bit because there is actually a Spain based organization that 1542 01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:54,320 Speaker 1: got a grant from FEMA to support on the buses 1543 01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:59,960 Speaker 1: UM and so now Bowser's response is this organization sad 1544 01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:05,040 Speaker 1: know has it, It's covered. There's there's no like refuse. 1545 01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:08,479 Speaker 1: One refusing to even acknowledge the fact that the Mutual 1546 01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:11,920 Speaker 1: Aid Network has been and continues to do the vast 1547 01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:15,160 Speaker 1: majority of the welcoming of the folks that are arriving, 1548 01:39:16,120 --> 01:39:23,479 Speaker 1: and two once again refusing to acknowledge that there is 1549 01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:33,599 Speaker 1: any role that DC could be or should be playing here. Yeah, 1550 01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:37,720 Speaker 1: and it definitely it seems like I don't know. I mean, 1551 01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:41,439 Speaker 1: it's it's a kind of classic like state two steps, 1552 01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:43,080 Speaker 1: which like yeah, on the one hand is like okay, 1553 01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:44,760 Speaker 1: there's no problem. The second thing is we found an 1554 01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,600 Speaker 1: NGO we can sort of like pretend is doing the 1555 01:39:47,680 --> 01:39:52,920 Speaker 1: actual work. UM. And I guess one of your things 1556 01:39:52,960 --> 01:39:56,439 Speaker 1: that that I saw from y'all recently was a bunch 1557 01:39:56,439 --> 01:39:58,880 Speaker 1: of people got exposed to COVID while doing this and 1558 01:40:00,360 --> 01:40:03,439 Speaker 1: there was like basically, you guys did basically a work stoppage. 1559 01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:13,760 Speaker 1: So last week, UM, we basically hit a wall. UM, 1560 01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:18,920 Speaker 1: many of our core organizers had been exposed to COVID. UM, 1561 01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:26,040 Speaker 1: we were running out of funds because this work is expensive. UM. 1562 01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:33,040 Speaker 1: And we had been doing this as volunteers around the clock, 1563 01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:35,400 Speaker 1: you know, twenty four hours a day, seventies a week 1564 01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:41,160 Speaker 1: for months, and last week we kind of hit a wall. 1565 01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:47,920 Speaker 1: And UM told this NGO that is receiving female funding 1566 01:40:48,240 --> 01:40:53,240 Speaker 1: that UM we needed to take a beat, UM and 1567 01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:58,519 Speaker 1: take two days where you know, folks kuld get COVID 1568 01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,040 Speaker 1: tested and make sure they were clear to come back 1569 01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:05,800 Speaker 1: to work and rest and also spend time like we 1570 01:41:06,080 --> 01:41:09,479 Speaker 1: you know, call it a work stuffage, but we're all 1571 01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:12,240 Speaker 1: still working. We were all you know, having conversations as 1572 01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:14,880 Speaker 1: to how we make this work more sustainable, how we 1573 01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:19,960 Speaker 1: find you know, systems of support to to make this 1574 01:41:21,160 --> 01:41:29,560 Speaker 1: this welcome last. And unfortunately that resulted in people basically 1575 01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:36,400 Speaker 1: getting stranded at Union Station. UM. And when our folks 1576 01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:42,320 Speaker 1: were able to return to welcoming buses on UM you know, 1577 01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:44,920 Speaker 1: later in the week, they ended up with like I 1578 01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:48,439 Speaker 1: don't know, thirty additional people that had basically been sleeping 1579 01:41:48,479 --> 01:41:53,760 Speaker 1: at Union Station because this other NGO that you know 1580 01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:57,760 Speaker 1: is receiving federal funding to do the work that the 1581 01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:00,719 Speaker 1: mayor is saying has it and they're for she doesn't 1582 01:42:00,760 --> 01:42:05,920 Speaker 1: have to do anything, didn't show up. And and there 1583 01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:09,120 Speaker 1: were a handful of good Samaritans that like you know, 1584 01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:11,080 Speaker 1: would be at Union Station and see a bunch of 1585 01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:13,639 Speaker 1: folks and they you know, spoke different languages and would 1586 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:15,720 Speaker 1: be able to support them kind of here and there. 1587 01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:21,960 Speaker 1: But it really showed how um I think it really 1588 01:42:22,080 --> 01:42:25,840 Speaker 1: proved the work that the futual Aid Network had been 1589 01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:28,240 Speaker 1: holding and that you know, if we tried to take 1590 01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:33,880 Speaker 1: a step back things things fall um and really showed 1591 01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:40,000 Speaker 1: how much we need others to step in because the 1592 01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:44,519 Speaker 1: work that we've been holding has is has been you know, 1593 01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:50,479 Speaker 1: wearing us down and hiding the situation a little bit 1594 01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:54,519 Speaker 1: right that people don't people you know, when we're able 1595 01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:59,360 Speaker 1: to really show up and and provide the folks that 1596 01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:02,600 Speaker 1: are arriving with the support that they need. What it 1597 01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:07,280 Speaker 1: means is that the government isn't paying attention because it's 1598 01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:11,559 Speaker 1: it's not their problem in that moment um. It means 1599 01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:16,799 Speaker 1: that DC residents don't have to walk by asylum seekers 1600 01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:19,240 Speaker 1: when they're trying to get to the Metro after work. 1601 01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:27,000 Speaker 1: It means that, um, you know, the people are cared 1602 01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:29,360 Speaker 1: for and and that's great, and it's work that we're 1603 01:43:29,400 --> 01:43:32,320 Speaker 1: proud of it. It's work that we're doing well, um, 1604 01:43:32,800 --> 01:43:36,599 Speaker 1: But it's also work that we need support doing, um 1605 01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:42,040 Speaker 1: because it's it's a lot and the numbers have increased, 1606 01:43:43,360 --> 01:43:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, and and we want to be able to 1607 01:43:49,080 --> 01:43:53,120 Speaker 1: provide welcome. We want to be able to give the 1608 01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:57,479 Speaker 1: folks what they need. But as long as we're sort 1609 01:43:57,520 --> 01:44:01,439 Speaker 1: of living in this world where bus tickets are massively 1610 01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:06,360 Speaker 1: expensive and food is expensive, and you know, we gotta 1611 01:44:06,439 --> 01:44:10,760 Speaker 1: we gotta help clothes people and and help people meet 1612 01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:13,960 Speaker 1: their needs. Then then we have to have support. And 1613 01:44:14,120 --> 01:44:17,160 Speaker 1: that's just that's just the reality. Yeah, that's one of 1614 01:44:17,200 --> 01:44:19,360 Speaker 1: the things that is really frustrating about this too, is 1615 01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:21,320 Speaker 1: it's like it's not like the resources that you just 1616 01:44:21,439 --> 01:44:23,519 Speaker 1: don't exist, Like it's not it's not even like the 1617 01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:26,479 Speaker 1: state hasn't like attempted to put resources out, but it 1618 01:44:26,560 --> 01:44:28,720 Speaker 1: just got fed into this NGO complex people who are 1619 01:44:28,760 --> 01:44:32,519 Speaker 1: just doing nothing, and I don't know, like the the 1620 01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:38,080 Speaker 1: way you get to see sort of both arms of 1621 01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:40,080 Speaker 1: what the state does where it's like, okay, on the 1622 01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:41,280 Speaker 1: one hand, you have the part of the state that's 1623 01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:44,759 Speaker 1: just hitting people with clubs, that's just doing this stuff, 1624 01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:46,240 Speaker 1: and you get the sort of political army of the 1625 01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:49,679 Speaker 1: state who just like again are just literally shuffling people's 1626 01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:52,960 Speaker 1: lives around as as you know, as political theater, and 1627 01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:55,920 Speaker 1: the political theory doesn't matter because these people's lives don't 1628 01:44:55,960 --> 01:44:58,320 Speaker 1: matter to the state or to anyone who has even 1629 01:44:58,360 --> 01:45:00,400 Speaker 1: a tiny bit of power unless they you know, they're 1630 01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,880 Speaker 1: it's visible enough that people are like the people have 1631 01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:06,799 Speaker 1: to see it, and that people, you know, get annoyed 1632 01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:09,000 Speaker 1: because oh, hey, look at this thing happening that's like 1633 01:45:09,120 --> 01:45:12,200 Speaker 1: interfering with my life now, and you know, and then 1634 01:45:12,240 --> 01:45:13,560 Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, they're supposed to be part of the 1635 01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:16,080 Speaker 1: state that like tastes care of people, just isn't and 1636 01:45:16,240 --> 01:45:23,080 Speaker 1: that's just incredibly frustrating. I don't know, it's I think 1637 01:45:23,240 --> 01:45:28,920 Speaker 1: of a few things. So when we first started seeing 1638 01:45:29,160 --> 01:45:35,200 Speaker 1: buses coming to d C, um, you know that people 1639 01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:38,280 Speaker 1: are dropped off in front of Union Station and at 1640 01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:42,080 Speaker 1: the time, there was an encampment of an housed people 1641 01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,479 Speaker 1: um that you know, had their tents and stuff in 1642 01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:49,240 Speaker 1: front of Union Station. And so folks would get off 1643 01:45:49,320 --> 01:45:51,280 Speaker 1: the bus and say, you know, what are the tents, 1644 01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:54,240 Speaker 1: Like who are these people living in tents? And so 1645 01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:57,479 Speaker 1: be like welcome, welcome to the nation's capital of this 1646 01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:00,679 Speaker 1: place that you just came to seek opportunity, to seek safety. 1647 01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:06,040 Speaker 1: And you're immediately showing getting showed in in the most 1648 01:46:06,640 --> 01:46:10,160 Speaker 1: you know, visible terms possible of the way that the 1649 01:46:10,240 --> 01:46:14,840 Speaker 1: state is failing its own people because people in d 1650 01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:20,000 Speaker 1: C don't have housing um and housing gear is immensely expensive. 1651 01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:25,439 Speaker 1: And then um, I say in the early days because 1652 01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:29,720 Speaker 1: uh in I think it was in May uh that 1653 01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:34,080 Speaker 1: encampment was cleared um and so those people lost their 1654 01:46:34,120 --> 01:46:42,160 Speaker 1: homes UM. And now it continues to be a struggle 1655 01:46:42,439 --> 01:46:46,759 Speaker 1: that you know, if we are unable to provide housing 1656 01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:49,920 Speaker 1: for the people that get off the bus, they are 1657 01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:54,000 Speaker 1: going into the DC shelter system that is already overrun 1658 01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:58,679 Speaker 1: because there is a housing crisis and TC and alarming 1659 01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:04,639 Speaker 1: eviction crisis. And even for the folks that are arriving 1660 01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:10,960 Speaker 1: here on the buses, if they don't have supports, they're 1661 01:47:11,160 --> 01:47:15,680 Speaker 1: they're thrust into this situation in which the state is 1662 01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:19,720 Speaker 1: preventing them from working. They don't have a way to 1663 01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:28,320 Speaker 1: work legally for at least a few months, um, presumably 1664 01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:30,880 Speaker 1: until you know, they can apply for a work permit, 1665 01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:35,840 Speaker 1: presumably after they file for asylum. But these are folks 1666 01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,760 Speaker 1: that don't have a way to work legally, that are 1667 01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:44,519 Speaker 1: have that have zero support from the state. So how like, 1668 01:47:45,439 --> 01:47:50,000 Speaker 1: tell me how somebody is supposed to live in the 1669 01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:57,320 Speaker 1: United States? Feed themselves, feed them their feed their families, um, 1670 01:47:57,760 --> 01:48:02,200 Speaker 1: have a roof over their head, survive, have a cell 1671 01:48:02,280 --> 01:48:08,919 Speaker 1: phone for your surveillance app have the means to travel 1672 01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:15,800 Speaker 1: an hour, you know, once every few weeks to check 1673 01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:23,599 Speaker 1: in with ICE. If they're legally prevented from working. It's 1674 01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:32,320 Speaker 1: just it's a total abandonment of people who need and 1675 01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:39,120 Speaker 1: wholeheartedly deserve support. Yeah, and I think like it's it's honestly, 1676 01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:41,640 Speaker 1: like honestly think it's it's worse than abandoned, right, Like 1677 01:48:41,880 --> 01:48:44,240 Speaker 1: if they just like if these people were allowed to 1678 01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:46,519 Speaker 1: come into the US and the state did literally nothing 1679 01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:48,479 Speaker 1: at all, it would be better in the situation that 1680 01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:50,599 Speaker 1: exists now. Like it's not even just that they're being abandoned, 1681 01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:54,120 Speaker 1: is that they're actively being prevented from like doing the 1682 01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:56,880 Speaker 1: things they need to live. And it's I don't notice. 1683 01:48:56,920 --> 01:48:58,400 Speaker 1: I think this is something you see on a sort 1684 01:48:58,400 --> 01:49:00,200 Speaker 1: of broader level, right whether there's a lot of I 1685 01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:01,600 Speaker 1: don't know about Back when I was in sort of 1686 01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:03,560 Speaker 1: social theory land, there's a lot of talk about like 1687 01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:06,920 Speaker 1: necropolitics and the state letting people die, and it's like, well, yeah, 1688 01:49:06,960 --> 01:49:09,280 Speaker 1: but like they're also actively helping to kill them too, 1689 01:49:09,479 --> 01:49:12,400 Speaker 1: Like that that's like it's it's not just that the 1690 01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:14,600 Speaker 1: state abandons people. It's that the state abandons people and 1691 01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:16,920 Speaker 1: then it takes the resources and prevents anyone else from 1692 01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:19,320 Speaker 1: using them, and then you know, and when it when 1693 01:49:19,360 --> 01:49:21,120 Speaker 1: it does sort of yeah, I mean going back to 1694 01:49:21,200 --> 01:49:23,040 Speaker 1: sort of this NTO that's not doing anything. It's like, yeah, 1695 01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:25,280 Speaker 1: when when it when it does sort of send these 1696 01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:29,160 Speaker 1: resources out, it's sending them into these like into its 1697 01:49:29,200 --> 01:49:31,160 Speaker 1: own sort of Paris State complex with the sort of 1698 01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:33,040 Speaker 1: geo sector that's just not doing anything. And it's just 1699 01:49:35,200 --> 01:49:39,519 Speaker 1: I don't know, like it's it's this bind, right because 1700 01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:41,920 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, like on the one hand, like communities 1701 01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:43,840 Speaker 1: have to be able to support each other, but it's 1702 01:49:43,880 --> 01:49:48,840 Speaker 1: like we don't have the resources for it, and that 1703 01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:54,360 Speaker 1: has to come from somewhere, right, Yeah, it's impossible, and 1704 01:49:55,439 --> 01:49:59,439 Speaker 1: it's it's heartbreaking to see when DC is barely doing 1705 01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:02,160 Speaker 1: anything ing for the people that have been living here 1706 01:50:02,240 --> 01:50:07,080 Speaker 1: for generations, and then when we have new folks arrive, 1707 01:50:07,439 --> 01:50:16,120 Speaker 1: they're thrust into this impossible situation and no one's really 1708 01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:23,080 Speaker 1: willing to engage with that problem. Um, and there are resources, 1709 01:50:23,200 --> 01:50:26,479 Speaker 1: it's just a matter of whether you want to use 1710 01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:31,600 Speaker 1: them for these purposes. And this is a problem that 1711 01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:34,760 Speaker 1: we're seeing intimately here in d C. But it's a 1712 01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:39,080 Speaker 1: problem that's existing everywhere around the country. And DC is 1713 01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:42,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be a sanctuary city, Like this isn't this 1714 01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:46,720 Speaker 1: isn't d C with a mayor that's you know, politically 1715 01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:50,040 Speaker 1: aligned with Governor Abbott. This isn't a d C with 1716 01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:57,520 Speaker 1: a mayor who is attempting to be vehemently anti immigrant. 1717 01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:05,439 Speaker 1: It's mayor who is claiming to represent a sanctuary city, 1718 01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:11,040 Speaker 1: a city that is supposed to welcome immigrants and yet 1719 01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:20,960 Speaker 1: m saying welcome doesn't actually mean welcome. Yeah. I remember, 1720 01:51:21,120 --> 01:51:23,720 Speaker 1: like I'm in Chicago and you know, Chicago's also sanctuary city, 1721 01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:25,800 Speaker 1: and I I you know, we had to physically stop 1722 01:51:25,840 --> 01:51:29,479 Speaker 1: deportation flights with our bodies. Like what the this like 1723 01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:32,679 Speaker 1: haunting memory always remembers like the first big like anti ice, 1724 01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:35,720 Speaker 1: like anti kids in cages protests that we had. One 1725 01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:37,880 Speaker 1: of the groups that showed up to this thing like 1726 01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:40,120 Speaker 1: what it's called Heartland Alliance and then you know they 1727 01:51:40,160 --> 01:51:42,679 Speaker 1: describe itself as like this human rights an anti poverty organization, 1728 01:51:42,800 --> 01:51:45,360 Speaker 1: and they were literally running five child attention centers in 1729 01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:50,320 Speaker 1: Chicago and it was like, I don't know, the doesn't 1730 01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:51,920 Speaker 1: mean that. That was like just the sort of like 1731 01:51:55,160 --> 01:51:57,640 Speaker 1: the it's it's it's the rubber hitting the road of 1732 01:51:57,960 --> 01:51:59,840 Speaker 1: saying you're a sanctuary city, and what does it look 1733 01:51:59,880 --> 01:52:01,240 Speaker 1: like and it's like, well it means that your micro 1734 01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:05,040 Speaker 1: justice organizations like run child prisons for immigrants. It's a 1735 01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:11,280 Speaker 1: refusal to engage with reality a little bit. And you 1736 01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:15,160 Speaker 1: know the energy of SAMO that is receiving female funding 1737 01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:21,600 Speaker 1: to presumably abandoned people. Union Station is also you know, 1738 01:52:22,840 --> 01:52:25,640 Speaker 1: if things go their way, trying to open up a 1739 01:52:26,280 --> 01:52:31,360 Speaker 1: facility and DC too, you know, detain an accompanied children 1740 01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:34,679 Speaker 1: and that's welcome to th things very ecity, it's probably 1741 01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:38,640 Speaker 1: worth mentioning. It's like, you know, Spain another country that 1742 01:52:38,720 --> 01:52:43,960 Speaker 1: has just like people getting like people. So Spain like 1743 01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:46,760 Speaker 1: has a part of North Africa they control, and you 1744 01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:50,400 Speaker 1: know they're like people like people get shot at the 1745 01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:53,000 Speaker 1: border by soldiers trying to like trying to climb fences 1746 01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:56,000 Speaker 1: getting in, and you know, it's it's it's this fun 1747 01:52:56,120 --> 01:52:58,280 Speaker 1: thing where we're seeing like, I mean, this is what's 1748 01:52:58,280 --> 01:53:02,000 Speaker 1: been happening for the last a really like forever, like 1749 01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:05,200 Speaker 1: last five hundred years has been this. But this the 1750 01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:08,080 Speaker 1: sort of this this incredible racist border system is not 1751 01:53:08,200 --> 01:53:11,360 Speaker 1: just an American thing. It's in Europe, it's in it's 1752 01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:15,519 Speaker 1: been exported like into Mexico itself. It's been I don't 1753 01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:17,519 Speaker 1: know it's it's it's it's it's a it's a politics 1754 01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:20,800 Speaker 1: that's just sort of everywhere, and like frontexs and THEU 1755 01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:23,840 Speaker 1: does this stuff like it's it's all just I don't know, 1756 01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:29,840 Speaker 1: it's borders are racist and they kill people and they 1757 01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:35,360 Speaker 1: kill people, and it feels I don't actually think we 1758 01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:38,400 Speaker 1: have to go to it's I think it's helpful to 1759 01:53:38,640 --> 01:53:44,080 Speaker 1: make those analogies of how this is replicated across the world. 1760 01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:51,519 Speaker 1: But I also think that you know, just a few 1761 01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:57,479 Speaker 1: weeks ago, there were over fifty uh migrants that were 1762 01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:02,519 Speaker 1: found dead in the ba of attractor trailer in San Antonio, 1763 01:54:02,920 --> 01:54:09,640 Speaker 1: including you know, young indigenous folks. And we know that 1764 01:54:10,320 --> 01:54:16,080 Speaker 1: there have been thousands of thousands of Haitians removed under 1765 01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:21,760 Speaker 1: Title forty two UM and Haitians that are drowning in 1766 01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:25,519 Speaker 1: the water trying to find a way to come to 1767 01:54:25,720 --> 01:54:31,040 Speaker 1: the United States to seek safety. People are literally dying 1768 01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:38,240 Speaker 1: and trying to get here. And what the folks that 1769 01:54:38,480 --> 01:54:43,640 Speaker 1: are coming to d C in a way are the 1770 01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:48,680 Speaker 1: lucky ones because they're from countries like Venezuela. They're from 1771 01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:53,960 Speaker 1: countries like Cuba where US foreign policy finds it beneficial 1772 01:54:54,720 --> 01:55:00,680 Speaker 1: to allow them to enter too publicly say, you know, 1773 01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:06,840 Speaker 1: these are the quote unquote right asylum seekers and they're 1774 01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:11,520 Speaker 1: able to be paroled into the country and still have 1775 01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:14,880 Speaker 1: to deal with all of this crap that they're dealing with. 1776 01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:26,040 Speaker 1: But there's countless other black, brown, indigenous folks that are 1777 01:55:26,200 --> 01:55:29,080 Speaker 1: arriving at the border and literally risking their lives and 1778 01:55:29,200 --> 01:55:34,640 Speaker 1: many losing their lives trying to get here because of 1779 01:55:35,040 --> 01:55:38,720 Speaker 1: these like racialized border systems that we have and that 1780 01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:42,960 Speaker 1: we're exporting all throughout the America's like go south to 1781 01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:46,080 Speaker 1: Mexico to Tapatula and you basically have an open air 1782 01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:50,680 Speaker 1: prison of black asylum seekers. Yeah, I mean that's something 1783 01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:54,160 Speaker 1: that like like my my, the reason my family's here 1784 01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:56,720 Speaker 1: is because we were able to like my graphic got 1785 01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:59,200 Speaker 1: drafted into the Tiwanese army and he was like no, 1786 01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:01,560 Speaker 1: because we were Taiwanese, we were able to get to 1787 01:56:01,600 --> 01:56:04,000 Speaker 1: the US. But it's like, you know, lots and lots 1788 01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:05,600 Speaker 1: of people like you know, if you if you were 1789 01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:07,400 Speaker 1: from South Vietnam, sometime to let you in. If they 1790 01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:08,960 Speaker 1: if you were from Taiwan, they will let you in, 1791 01:56:09,120 --> 01:56:11,720 Speaker 1: But like God help you if you're from like Indonesia 1792 01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:14,240 Speaker 1: or just like from I mean, so sometimes you get 1793 01:56:14,240 --> 01:56:20,200 Speaker 1: people from China, but it's like, yeah, the I don't 1794 01:56:20,240 --> 01:56:23,680 Speaker 1: know the way that just all of these people's lives 1795 01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:25,840 Speaker 1: are being used at geopolitical tools, they're being used, and 1796 01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:27,640 Speaker 1: then you know, once they get here, they're being used 1797 01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:32,080 Speaker 1: as just sort of internal American political tools. And yeah, 1798 01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:33,760 Speaker 1: it's just as watch people getting killed with the borders 1799 01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:36,480 Speaker 1: and until we fucking make borders go away, like the 1800 01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:40,280 Speaker 1: stuff is just going to keep happening, and people are 1801 01:56:40,320 --> 01:56:43,200 Speaker 1: getting boarded onto buses and sent to d C because 1802 01:56:43,360 --> 01:56:45,560 Speaker 1: Governor Abbott thinks this is the way that he can 1803 01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:51,560 Speaker 1: run for president. Yeah, by being the most racist, xenophobic 1804 01:56:51,920 --> 01:56:55,000 Speaker 1: guy in town. Maybe maybe, And and these folks are 1805 01:56:55,080 --> 01:57:04,600 Speaker 1: just political tools, and um, it's it's devastating, um, and 1806 01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:13,200 Speaker 1: it's it's really also kind of amazing to be able 1807 01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:16,800 Speaker 1: to then also just like hang out with them and 1808 01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:20,080 Speaker 1: break bread with them and and realize that we're all 1809 01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:27,720 Speaker 1: sort of fighting this this mess together. Yeah. And I 1810 01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:32,000 Speaker 1: think I don't know, like we we do. We do 1811 01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:35,520 Speaker 1: a lot of episodes here that are incredibly depressing, but yeah, 1812 01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:38,200 Speaker 1: like I guess, yeah, it isn't I guess important as 1813 01:57:38,240 --> 01:57:39,600 Speaker 1: a as a thing to sort of end on is it, 1814 01:57:39,680 --> 01:57:42,080 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I know, like we like we can take 1815 01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:45,520 Speaker 1: care of these people, like we can if we actually 1816 01:57:45,600 --> 01:57:49,160 Speaker 1: fight this together, we can beat these guys like we 1817 01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:54,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, like it is actually possible. Like these 1818 01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:57,040 Speaker 1: the all of the things that we're talking about, like 1819 01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,080 Speaker 1: the stuff didn't used to exist. It's not it's not 1820 01:57:59,200 --> 01:58:01,000 Speaker 1: something that in how really has to exist, and we 1821 01:58:01,040 --> 01:58:07,960 Speaker 1: can make it not exist again. I think the the 1822 01:58:08,080 --> 01:58:13,400 Speaker 1: response that we've had in DC has been are really 1823 01:58:13,680 --> 01:58:16,560 Speaker 1: like I can't say it enough how beautiful it is 1824 01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:23,520 Speaker 1: that we have a group of like over two volunteers 1825 01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:26,320 Speaker 1: that have stepped up, UM and we've been able to 1826 01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:29,280 Speaker 1: raise a remarkable amount of money, and we've had like, 1827 01:58:30,240 --> 01:58:34,879 Speaker 1: you know, little kids sell cookies to support our efforts 1828 01:58:35,480 --> 01:58:42,240 Speaker 1: and UM, it's it's really heartwarming, UM and people using 1829 01:58:42,280 --> 01:58:46,920 Speaker 1: their neighborhood listeners to you know, get donations of car 1830 01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:50,360 Speaker 1: seats to be able to you know, make sure that 1831 01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:53,760 Speaker 1: when we're you know, helping families, we can make sure 1832 01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:56,000 Speaker 1: that like the little kiddos are able to travel in 1833 01:58:56,080 --> 01:58:59,120 Speaker 1: car seats safely and all of that. And we've been 1834 01:58:59,320 --> 01:59:01,520 Speaker 1: able to and we're doing more of this of like 1835 01:59:01,640 --> 01:59:04,400 Speaker 1: building relationships with folks around the country that are doing 1836 01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:08,320 Speaker 1: similar work, or you know, if someone is taking a 1837 01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:12,360 Speaker 1: bus to New York and it, you know, breaks down 1838 01:59:12,480 --> 01:59:15,760 Speaker 1: in Philly, were able to mobilize other volunteers and Philly 1839 01:59:15,880 --> 01:59:18,080 Speaker 1: to just like make sure that folks are like fine 1840 01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:20,360 Speaker 1: and okay and like get on their next bus. And 1841 01:59:20,560 --> 01:59:25,560 Speaker 1: that is amazing and beautiful and to me, I think 1842 01:59:25,640 --> 01:59:28,800 Speaker 1: the thing that makes me optimistic and like mad at 1843 01:59:28,880 --> 01:59:33,400 Speaker 1: the same time is that there are both at the 1844 01:59:33,480 --> 01:59:37,080 Speaker 1: federal level and local levels, just billions and billions and 1845 01:59:37,160 --> 01:59:44,840 Speaker 1: billions of dollars that are being invested into into solutions 1846 01:59:45,480 --> 01:59:55,560 Speaker 1: that are based on like detention, surveillance, border militarization. When 1847 01:59:56,440 --> 02:00:00,040 Speaker 1: God like if instead we just devoted those billy and 1848 02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:03,120 Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars into making sure that like 1849 02:00:03,400 --> 02:00:07,760 Speaker 1: when folks arrive here, they can have like a comfy 1850 02:00:07,840 --> 02:00:10,560 Speaker 1: bed to to to like lay in at night and 1851 02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:14,760 Speaker 1: have food and be able to like support their families. 1852 02:00:15,680 --> 02:00:21,040 Speaker 1: I mean it kind of sounds revolutionary, but but it's 1853 02:00:21,120 --> 02:00:24,400 Speaker 1: just like it's so simple, um, and there is such 1854 02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:30,560 Speaker 1: a concerted effort to do the opposite of the most basic. Hey, 1855 02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:35,240 Speaker 1: welcome to my town. How can I welcome you. There 1856 02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:40,160 Speaker 1: was if I remembering my like immigrations history right there. 1857 02:00:40,160 --> 02:00:42,560 Speaker 1: They used they had this program in in the UK 1858 02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:46,520 Speaker 1: where for a while where they would bring okay, you'd 1859 02:00:46,560 --> 02:00:48,120 Speaker 1: have a family they're coming to the US and they 1860 02:00:48,200 --> 02:00:49,920 Speaker 1: get paied with the British family, and the British family 1861 02:00:49,960 --> 02:00:52,080 Speaker 1: would like show them the ropes. And it worked really well. 1862 02:00:52,120 --> 02:00:53,960 Speaker 1: Everyone loved it, and they stopped doing it because they 1863 02:00:54,360 --> 02:00:56,440 Speaker 1: once they brought people in that they couldn't deport them 1864 02:00:56,680 --> 02:00:58,440 Speaker 1: because the entire community would show up would just be 1865 02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:01,400 Speaker 1: like no, And so they stopped doing it. And it's 1866 02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:04,080 Speaker 1: like that's a problem, Like that's the problem that like 1867 02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:07,800 Speaker 1: people are then welcomed and loved by their communities. Like 1868 02:01:07,960 --> 02:01:09,920 Speaker 1: that shouldn't be a problem that we have to solve. 1869 02:01:10,040 --> 02:01:13,320 Speaker 1: That should be like, oh, this is a resounding success. Yeah, 1870 02:01:13,360 --> 02:01:16,640 Speaker 1: And instead it's like it's like actually living in a 1871 02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:19,240 Speaker 1: better world, actually having a community where people care for 1872 02:01:19,280 --> 02:01:20,920 Speaker 1: each other and where people take care of each other 1873 02:01:21,120 --> 02:01:22,880 Speaker 1: and where people love each other or people will fight 1874 02:01:22,920 --> 02:01:24,840 Speaker 1: for each other, Like that is something that the state 1875 02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:30,200 Speaker 1: sees as a threat. And I don't know, I guess 1876 02:01:30,200 --> 02:01:32,400 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's this, it's this weird thing where 1877 02:01:32,440 --> 02:01:36,600 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, we like the better world we 1878 02:01:36,680 --> 02:01:40,680 Speaker 1: could be living in, Like is is literally being built 1879 02:01:40,840 --> 02:01:42,680 Speaker 1: right like you know you can you can you can 1880 02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:44,480 Speaker 1: walk down the street and you can see people taking 1881 02:01:44,480 --> 02:01:47,000 Speaker 1: care of each other. And then it's like here is 1882 02:01:47,120 --> 02:01:49,160 Speaker 1: the state, Who's the only thing that they want to 1883 02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:55,800 Speaker 1: do is just make everyone's lives increasingly miserable. It's yeah, 1884 02:01:56,200 --> 02:02:00,960 Speaker 1: like is it? Is it? That's hard to just say, Hey, like, 1885 02:02:01,480 --> 02:02:05,960 Speaker 1: folks want to be able to just like live. That's it. 1886 02:02:06,200 --> 02:02:07,880 Speaker 1: It's all they want to be able to do is 1887 02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:12,440 Speaker 1: just like live. They want to be able to work, 1888 02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:14,840 Speaker 1: they want to be able to support their family, they 1889 02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:18,080 Speaker 1: want to be able to be safe, they want to 1890 02:02:18,160 --> 02:02:21,000 Speaker 1: be able to like eat good food and have fun. 1891 02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:27,080 Speaker 1: And the state is doing everything but allowing that to 1892 02:02:27,160 --> 02:02:33,120 Speaker 1: be and are like mutual aid work is helping folks 1893 02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:38,920 Speaker 1: navigate and do as much of that as possible. Yeah, 1894 02:02:39,040 --> 02:02:40,560 Speaker 1: I think I think that's a good note to end on, 1895 02:02:40,680 --> 02:02:44,520 Speaker 1: unless you have anything else, I don't think so cool. 1896 02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:47,160 Speaker 1: Um Okay, so where where can people go to find 1897 02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:48,760 Speaker 1: and support this work? And where can they go to 1898 02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:51,720 Speaker 1: like give money if they want to or actually help 1899 02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:54,720 Speaker 1: volunteer too? If you're in the area. Yeah. So, um, 1900 02:02:55,120 --> 02:03:00,400 Speaker 1: we have a link tree that has all of the 1901 02:03:01,320 --> 02:03:03,600 Speaker 1: links to support us and all the ways. So if 1902 02:03:03,640 --> 02:03:07,360 Speaker 1: you're here in d C and you want to be 1903 02:03:07,480 --> 02:03:10,960 Speaker 1: able to support or if you want to donate, Um, 1904 02:03:11,440 --> 02:03:15,440 Speaker 1: we have really cool t shirts that we sell that 1905 02:03:15,600 --> 02:03:18,440 Speaker 1: say melt Ice that are buying to buy one of 1906 02:03:18,480 --> 02:03:23,720 Speaker 1: our volunteers. Um. And so it's the link tree is 1907 02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:27,840 Speaker 1: uh like the link tree h slash and d C 1908 02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:33,120 Speaker 1: t X Solidarity twenty two And if you follow that link, 1909 02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:38,480 Speaker 1: you will be able to um see all about our work. Um, 1910 02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, get the demands that we have for Mayor Bowser, 1911 02:03:42,240 --> 02:03:46,160 Speaker 1: support us in person, financially, whatever it is. All of 1912 02:03:46,240 --> 02:03:48,680 Speaker 1: that lives there. And yeah we will. We will put 1913 02:03:48,720 --> 02:03:51,040 Speaker 1: the link in the description. So cool. That'd be great. 1914 02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:54,040 Speaker 1: I'll make sure you have it. Yeah, thank you, um 1915 02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:56,480 Speaker 1: and yeah, thank you, thank you so much for joining us, 1916 02:03:56,920 --> 02:03:59,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Yeah, and this has be naken. 1917 02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:02,720 Speaker 1: Happen here, Go help your neighbors and go make the 1918 02:04:02,760 --> 02:04:04,920 Speaker 1: state not be able to prevent you from doing that. 1919 02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:26,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen on the internet. The only podcast. 1920 02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans UM and today we've got St. Andrew 1921 02:04:31,480 --> 02:04:35,040 Speaker 1: back in the studio. We don't actually have a studio. 1922 02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:36,760 Speaker 1: That was a lie. That was a lie that I 1923 02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:39,960 Speaker 1: do think I was cooler, St. Andrew. How are you 1924 02:04:40,000 --> 02:04:44,120 Speaker 1: doing today? I am good, I'm good. Andrew dropped the saint. 1925 02:04:44,480 --> 02:04:47,240 Speaker 1: Oh shit, I'm sorry. You're right, you're right, You're right. 1926 02:04:47,560 --> 02:04:50,960 Speaker 1: We should probably. I'm sorry. That's good because I'm no 1927 02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:55,920 Speaker 1: longer a scene. You got to saint? So Okay, if 1928 02:04:55,960 --> 02:05:00,400 Speaker 1: I understand Catholicism, right, that means you undid someone Elsi's 1929 02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:06,840 Speaker 1: three miracles. I know nothing about Catholicism. Okay, well, I'm 1930 02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:11,160 Speaker 1: pretty sure we have the Protestants Protestant ground here. My 1931 02:05:11,320 --> 02:05:13,360 Speaker 1: knowledge of Catholicism is that to be a saint, you 1932 02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:15,160 Speaker 1: have to do a couple of miracles, but the last 1933 02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:17,640 Speaker 1: one has always something to do with being dead, Like 1934 02:05:17,800 --> 02:05:19,960 Speaker 1: they just decide that whatever you do when you're a corpse, 1935 02:05:20,000 --> 02:05:25,960 Speaker 1: it is like, oh, it's a miracle. Oh Catholicism, Andrew, 1936 02:05:26,720 --> 02:05:30,080 Speaker 1: what are we talking about? Um? Today we're gonna be 1937 02:05:30,120 --> 02:05:34,840 Speaker 1: talking about something that I would see more traditional Contholicts. 1938 02:05:34,880 --> 02:05:37,920 Speaker 1: We have some disagreements with no Christians. We have some 1939 02:05:37,960 --> 02:05:40,360 Speaker 1: disagreements with them. That is I mean that is our 1940 02:05:40,680 --> 02:05:46,040 Speaker 1: entire audience, is that this this podcast is completely listened 1941 02:05:46,040 --> 02:05:51,120 Speaker 1: to by the Pope's Swiss guards on Vodicans. Yeah, we 1942 02:05:51,280 --> 02:05:56,440 Speaker 1: we have deep penetration in the Vatican. That's an interesting 1943 02:05:56,520 --> 02:05:58,840 Speaker 1: choice of woods considering the end of Pride month, but 1944 02:06:00,000 --> 02:06:05,040 Speaker 1: allow it. All right, So, um, yeah, what are we 1945 02:06:05,080 --> 02:06:11,120 Speaker 1: talking about. We'll be talking about human evolution, particularly it 1946 02:06:11,200 --> 02:06:16,840 Speaker 1: pertains to human cooperation. Okay, the origins of human cooperation. O. Yeah, 1947 02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:19,120 Speaker 1: I love this ship. I think that you know, people 1948 02:06:19,160 --> 02:06:24,200 Speaker 1: send to emphasize human competition a lot um because capitalism 1949 02:06:24,320 --> 02:06:28,400 Speaker 1: wants us to believe that we have these competitive you know, 1950 02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:31,840 Speaker 1: dog eat dog. I don't know where that term came from, 1951 02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:34,520 Speaker 1: By the way, I've always been curious about that. Um, 1952 02:06:34,680 --> 02:06:37,440 Speaker 1: as far as I know, dogs don't eat each other. Um. 1953 02:06:38,440 --> 02:06:41,440 Speaker 1: But it's interesting phase and I think it's kind of 1954 02:06:41,480 --> 02:06:45,680 Speaker 1: apt here. Um. This is this idea that that that 1955 02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:49,640 Speaker 1: we just competing all the time, that we're fighting is 1956 02:06:49,720 --> 02:06:52,440 Speaker 1: it's a survival of the fittest, and that only the 1957 02:06:52,480 --> 02:06:55,879 Speaker 1: strong survive. You know, when people talk, you know, casually 1958 02:06:55,960 --> 02:07:02,560 Speaker 1: about prehistoric times, is this very it represents the stories 1959 02:07:02,640 --> 02:07:05,360 Speaker 1: that we've been told about it and as a result, 1960 02:07:05,440 --> 02:07:09,680 Speaker 1: it tends to be very you know, competitive, highly patriarchal, 1961 02:07:09,920 --> 02:07:13,360 Speaker 1: highly violent, just constant into pus some violence. I mean, 1962 02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:17,440 Speaker 1: that was the justification used to you know, reinforce the 1963 02:07:17,560 --> 02:07:20,920 Speaker 1: state rights like or the state of nature. It's everybody 1964 02:07:20,960 --> 02:07:25,240 Speaker 1: against themselves, and so as a result, you know, the 1965 02:07:25,320 --> 02:07:27,080 Speaker 1: state had to be introduced. We treated some of our 1966 02:07:27,120 --> 02:07:30,760 Speaker 1: freedoms for the safety that the state is supposed to provide. 1967 02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:35,480 Speaker 1: But as far back as Brudon and really even further, 1968 02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:40,640 Speaker 1: because let's be real, it's a very European concept. That's 1969 02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:43,840 Speaker 1: something that can be protected towards all human societies and 1970 02:07:44,000 --> 02:07:46,480 Speaker 1: all human philosophies. UM. But Prudon was one of the 1971 02:07:46,560 --> 02:07:49,680 Speaker 1: first white guys, I guess um in his time period 1972 02:07:49,760 --> 02:07:54,960 Speaker 1: and in his fields, really challenge that notion with you know, 1973 02:07:55,280 --> 02:07:59,440 Speaker 1: mutually a fact of evolution. Of course, the studies and 1974 02:07:59,480 --> 02:08:01,400 Speaker 1: stuff that he would have done, the knowledge that he 1975 02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:04,600 Speaker 1: would have shared upon you know, non un studied by 1976 02:08:04,720 --> 02:08:07,160 Speaker 1: people before him, but he was one of the first 1977 02:08:07,240 --> 02:08:10,600 Speaker 1: really bring all that knowledge together into one place. UM. 1978 02:08:12,120 --> 02:08:17,800 Speaker 1: Years later, Um, an anthropologist and paramatologists, was born. I 1979 02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:20,400 Speaker 1: mean she wasn't born that, but she became that later 1980 02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:23,760 Speaker 1: in life. In ninety six, that would be Sarah Black 1981 02:08:23,840 --> 02:08:28,680 Speaker 1: for her, and so she made many major contributions revolutionary 1982 02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:34,440 Speaker 1: psychology and sociology biology, especially pioneering our modern understanding of 1983 02:08:34,520 --> 02:08:38,760 Speaker 1: the evolutionary basis of female behavior in both non human 1984 02:08:38,880 --> 02:08:42,880 Speaker 1: and human primates. In two thousand two, she was recognized 1985 02:08:42,960 --> 02:08:45,680 Speaker 1: as one of the fifth most important women in science 1986 02:08:46,480 --> 02:08:50,680 Speaker 1: and in Mothers and Others. Together with her earlier work, 1987 02:08:51,280 --> 02:08:55,840 Speaker 1: earned plready the National Academies Award for Scientific Reviewing in 1988 02:08:55,960 --> 02:08:59,440 Speaker 1: honor of her insightful and visionary synthesis of a broad 1989 02:08:59,520 --> 02:09:02,000 Speaker 1: range of day turn concepts from across the social and 1990 02:09:02,040 --> 02:09:07,680 Speaker 1: biological sciences to illuminate the importance of biosocial processes among mothers, 1991 02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:11,800 Speaker 1: in funds, and other social actors informing the evolutionary crucible 1992 02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:15,680 Speaker 1: of human society. In essence, she got an award because 1993 02:09:16,560 --> 02:09:18,920 Speaker 1: she recognized the fact that the relationship between mother and 1994 02:09:19,080 --> 02:09:23,960 Speaker 1: child and you know how humans raise their children, Um, 1995 02:09:24,600 --> 02:09:31,200 Speaker 1: it's vital in our evolution and in a becoming human. Yeah, 1996 02:09:31,400 --> 02:09:34,880 Speaker 1: I mean that's um, Yeah, that's fascinating. I didn't know 1997 02:09:34,920 --> 02:09:38,560 Speaker 1: any of that. Yeah, I mean humans, they we we 1998 02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:40,880 Speaker 1: do recognize. Now I'm starting to recognize more and more 1999 02:09:41,000 --> 02:09:47,800 Speaker 1: parmacto parmatologists at least that um humans I let other 2000 02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:51,040 Speaker 1: great apes rather, they do care, they shay, and they 2001 02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,920 Speaker 1: empathize a lot more than we may have originally thought. 2002 02:09:55,840 --> 02:10:02,040 Speaker 1: But humans still when at know the caring competition, I 2003 02:10:02,120 --> 02:10:05,480 Speaker 1: think we because of even something I call official and 2004 02:10:05,600 --> 02:10:08,840 Speaker 1: not to me um on how we structure society use 2005 02:10:08,960 --> 02:10:12,160 Speaker 1: is probably one of the more crusal show of you know, 2006 02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:15,800 Speaker 1: the other greed apes. Yeah, it's interesting whenever I because 2007 02:10:15,840 --> 02:10:18,680 Speaker 1: obviously I've read stuff about like empathy and apes, but 2008 02:10:18,760 --> 02:10:21,720 Speaker 1: it's always in the context of the ones that we 2009 02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:24,520 Speaker 1: taught sign language to. The one I'm remembering particularly is 2010 02:10:24,640 --> 02:10:27,919 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm spacing on the name that the scientists 2011 02:10:27,960 --> 02:10:30,640 Speaker 1: gave her, but one of the apes, yeah, Cocoa, when 2012 02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:34,600 Speaker 1: her reaction to like nine eleven um because it was 2013 02:10:34,640 --> 02:10:37,000 Speaker 1: apparently like on the TV or some ship wouldn't happened, 2014 02:10:37,040 --> 02:10:41,320 Speaker 1: but like I never here emphasized the same degree um 2015 02:10:41,720 --> 02:10:44,320 Speaker 1: or you know, maybe I just have not sought it out, 2016 02:10:44,400 --> 02:10:48,360 Speaker 1: but it's certainly kind of less uh less discussed as 2017 02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:52,920 Speaker 1: like evidence of empathy within um within like the societies 2018 02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:54,800 Speaker 1: that they built, I guess like would be the term 2019 02:10:54,920 --> 02:10:57,040 Speaker 1: for them. The little their communities, I don't know, whatever 2020 02:10:57,040 --> 02:11:01,280 Speaker 1: you wanna call them. Yeah, yeah, I was interesting as well. 2021 02:11:01,360 --> 02:11:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean, Coco was a guerrilla and regarding her sign 2022 02:11:04,960 --> 02:11:09,520 Speaker 1: language is actually interesting video essay talking about how a 2023 02:11:09,560 --> 02:11:13,120 Speaker 1: new NS word sign language. Then we assume, but Coco 2024 02:11:13,240 --> 02:11:16,400 Speaker 1: was a guerrilla and humans are were closely related to 2025 02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:21,320 Speaker 1: two groups who was being um bunobos and chimpanzees, And 2026 02:11:22,480 --> 02:11:24,520 Speaker 1: we tend to look at chimpanzees, which tends to be 2027 02:11:24,720 --> 02:11:29,160 Speaker 1: more you know, violent, and people use them as an 2028 02:11:29,160 --> 02:11:31,840 Speaker 1: example of all this how humans naturally are despite the 2029 02:11:31,880 --> 02:11:33,280 Speaker 1: fact that you know, we have millions of years of 2030 02:11:33,280 --> 02:11:37,480 Speaker 1: evolution diverging from chimpanzees. You know, our last common ancestor 2031 02:11:37,680 --> 02:11:40,960 Speaker 1: was like six or seven million years ago. Yeah, that 2032 02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:45,040 Speaker 1: that's a bit distant. Like yeah, like I got member 2033 02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:48,360 Speaker 1: to five or six years and I consider us pretty 2034 02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:53,800 Speaker 1: like pretty far apart. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then 2035 02:11:53,840 --> 02:11:56,640 Speaker 1: on the top of that, like there was enough time 2036 02:11:56,760 --> 02:12:01,400 Speaker 1: for some serious divergences. Is not how you know, like 2037 02:12:02,720 --> 02:12:07,240 Speaker 1: the fact that humans, you know, walk up right and 2038 02:12:07,400 --> 02:12:10,480 Speaker 1: chimpanzee is they still have you know that that four 2039 02:12:10,600 --> 02:12:16,160 Speaker 1: legged gate. It's actually something that I learned recently evolved 2040 02:12:16,200 --> 02:12:19,320 Speaker 1: on two separate occasions, that being that particular kind of 2041 02:12:19,440 --> 02:12:24,040 Speaker 1: knuckle walk. Um. Yeah, I just want that kind of 2042 02:12:24,120 --> 02:12:28,960 Speaker 1: fascinating kind of besides the point, um, but yeah, I mean, 2043 02:12:29,000 --> 02:12:31,879 Speaker 1: we we tend to look at chimpanzeese as our closest example, 2044 02:12:32,040 --> 02:12:35,680 Speaker 1: but nobles which are a lot more social, I would say, 2045 02:12:35,680 --> 02:12:41,040 Speaker 1: a lot more cooperative and less violent, and chimpanzees actually 2046 02:12:41,080 --> 02:12:43,080 Speaker 1: share a lot of you know, similarities in terms of 2047 02:12:43,440 --> 02:12:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, our behavior. And they're also one of the 2048 02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:49,760 Speaker 1: few animal species that have been you know, recognized as 2049 02:12:50,280 --> 02:12:54,600 Speaker 1: having sex for pleasure and not just procreation, So good 2050 02:12:54,680 --> 02:12:58,280 Speaker 1: for them. When we talk about evolution, a lot of 2051 02:12:58,360 --> 02:13:02,600 Speaker 1: it has been shaped by dar And even though science 2052 02:13:02,760 --> 02:13:06,760 Speaker 1: is not about figures and big figures and their big ideas, 2053 02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:11,720 Speaker 1: it's about the ideas themselves. Um. But still, seeing as 2054 02:13:11,800 --> 02:13:15,000 Speaker 1: Darwin was the one who really introduced, no, the idea 2055 02:13:15,120 --> 02:13:19,320 Speaker 1: of competition, the idea of of all that in evolution, 2056 02:13:20,760 --> 02:13:24,200 Speaker 1: those sorts of notions which came really out of his 2057 02:13:24,360 --> 02:13:30,360 Speaker 1: time and industrializing competitive woods, um, it really overstates the 2058 02:13:30,480 --> 02:13:36,360 Speaker 1: rule of competition as of driving force and evolution, when 2059 02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:42,000 Speaker 1: in reality, cooperation was far more potent force when it 2060 02:13:42,080 --> 02:13:45,920 Speaker 1: comes to like pro social human tendencies um, you know, 2061 02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:48,520 Speaker 1: doing things to benefit others. That's what pro social is. 2062 02:13:50,240 --> 02:13:53,920 Speaker 1: Dr Hardie really comes down on the cooperation side of 2063 02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:56,800 Speaker 1: things in her book Mothers and Others especially, brings together 2064 02:13:56,840 --> 02:14:00,400 Speaker 1: all this evidence that we are basically the sad dounes 2065 02:14:01,080 --> 02:14:03,760 Speaker 1: of a place to see in species of corporative breeders. 2066 02:14:04,560 --> 02:14:09,360 Speaker 1: Corporative breeding is a practice amongst some animal species UM. 2067 02:14:10,320 --> 02:14:12,400 Speaker 1: Other mammals do it, but I think we are one 2068 02:14:12,440 --> 02:14:15,800 Speaker 1: of the few. We were were were the only create 2069 02:14:15,840 --> 02:14:19,160 Speaker 1: apes to do it, and there are other primates to 2070 02:14:19,200 --> 02:14:21,840 Speaker 1: do it, or the monkeys to do it, but none 2071 02:14:22,200 --> 02:14:27,160 Speaker 1: closely related to us. Cooperative breeding is basically the practice 2072 02:14:27,280 --> 02:14:34,640 Speaker 1: or the reproductive strategy UM where all parental care is 2073 02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:40,000 Speaker 1: provided to the offspring of you know, the children of 2074 02:14:40,120 --> 02:14:45,560 Speaker 1: cittain parents in the group. Al parental care is basically 2075 02:14:45,680 --> 02:14:53,000 Speaker 1: the practice of UM, basically non direct parents care M 2076 02:14:53,160 --> 02:14:55,440 Speaker 1: care provided by individuals other than the parents. And so 2077 02:14:57,960 --> 02:15:02,879 Speaker 1: by having that network in place, by having the process 2078 02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:04,760 Speaker 1: of out parenting in place, that's how we were able 2079 02:15:04,840 --> 02:15:07,680 Speaker 1: to be so successful as a species. You know, distribution, 2080 02:15:07,960 --> 02:15:11,880 Speaker 1: you know um, you know, establishing ourselves in all these 2081 02:15:11,920 --> 02:15:17,200 Speaker 1: different environments because humans spread barely rapidly around the globe, 2082 02:15:17,240 --> 02:15:20,360 Speaker 1: and we used to. We've established ourselves and created cultures 2083 02:15:20,400 --> 02:15:25,120 Speaker 1: and all sorts of unique environments, and honestly, we are 2084 02:15:25,240 --> 02:15:29,280 Speaker 1: the most successful out of the primates in not regard 2085 02:15:29,400 --> 02:15:32,120 Speaker 1: so kudus to us um, and that is because of 2086 02:15:32,240 --> 02:15:39,160 Speaker 1: corporative breeding. Did you just wou Probert? Yeah, of course, yes, 2087 02:15:39,360 --> 02:15:43,320 Speaker 1: like we have to, we have to ratio the rest 2088 02:15:43,360 --> 02:15:46,360 Speaker 1: of the primates, you know, very very based on us. 2089 02:15:49,080 --> 02:15:53,640 Speaker 1: We literally reassured them, literally were re feeling everything on 2090 02:15:53,720 --> 02:15:57,640 Speaker 1: this goddamn planet except for chickens. And no, except for chickens. 2091 02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:04,320 Speaker 1: Corn is definitely ratio. Thus, yeah, for sure, for sure 2092 02:16:04,720 --> 02:16:08,240 Speaker 1: cows too. Man. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Cows 2093 02:16:08,360 --> 02:16:15,720 Speaker 1: chickens on this one. For sure. We have a lot 2094 02:16:15,800 --> 02:16:18,280 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah. But I mean there's many different species 2095 02:16:18,320 --> 02:16:22,160 Speaker 1: of goods and there's only one species a few months. Yeah, 2096 02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, what's the population of dogs? Oh, 2097 02:16:26,000 --> 02:16:29,400 Speaker 1: it's actually every time I look, it's less than you'd expect. 2098 02:16:30,880 --> 02:16:36,400 Speaker 1: What nine million? Yes, that's ridiculous, less than i'd have expected. 2099 02:16:36,800 --> 02:16:40,920 Speaker 1: I want more, give me more. Do millions like rookie 2100 02:16:41,000 --> 02:16:43,680 Speaker 1: numbers like I was going to expect, like at least 2101 02:16:43,720 --> 02:16:47,119 Speaker 1: a couple of billion just based on but no, just nine. Yeah. 2102 02:16:47,160 --> 02:16:49,600 Speaker 1: Every time I look it up, I recall being like, oh, 2103 02:16:49,680 --> 02:16:51,440 Speaker 1: there's not as many dogs as I thought there were. 2104 02:16:51,840 --> 02:16:57,200 Speaker 1: I guess they would corporative bredas sure not. And only 2105 02:16:57,280 --> 02:17:01,320 Speaker 1: four hundred million cats was a rookie numbers cat Come on, cats, 2106 02:17:01,720 --> 02:17:06,760 Speaker 1: But it's actually probably I mean, party for the best. 2107 02:17:06,959 --> 02:17:10,920 Speaker 1: They do a lot of damage, my dad always says. 2108 02:17:11,040 --> 02:17:13,400 Speaker 1: My dad always says that we need more dogs in 2109 02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:16,960 Speaker 1: the world to fix the fucked up humans. Yeah, I 2110 02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:19,960 Speaker 1: mean I feel a lot of pressure to put on dogs. 2111 02:17:21,520 --> 02:17:25,560 Speaker 1: That's completely fair. I feel like that's really our job 2112 02:17:25,720 --> 02:17:29,000 Speaker 1: to fix up humans. Yeah, no, no, no, well I 2113 02:17:29,040 --> 02:17:33,560 Speaker 1: mean dogs for that. I mean cots and dogs are 2114 02:17:33,600 --> 02:17:35,000 Speaker 1: pulling a lot of weights as it is, you know 2115 02:17:35,320 --> 02:17:38,680 Speaker 1: they are. What are ferrets doing? Yeah? What a fish doing? 2116 02:17:38,800 --> 02:17:46,200 Speaker 1: What are ferrets doing? Andrew ferrets? Fucking ferrets? Yeah? And 2117 02:17:46,360 --> 02:17:48,920 Speaker 1: like fucking goldfish? Right, what are you guys? What do 2118 02:17:48,959 --> 02:17:50,680 Speaker 1: you what a goldfish? What have they been doing lately? 2119 02:17:50,760 --> 02:17:54,039 Speaker 1: Motherfucker's like, get off your asses and stop us from 2120 02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:57,280 Speaker 1: killing people. Goldfish, stop the war in Ukraine? Goldfish, Come on, 2121 02:17:57,720 --> 02:17:59,880 Speaker 1: I mean to get to cut gold fish. Some slack. 2122 02:18:00,680 --> 02:18:03,560 Speaker 1: They're busy dying because people would want to take care 2123 02:18:03,600 --> 02:18:07,280 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah. Yeah, they're like all of the people 2124 02:18:07,360 --> 02:18:10,480 Speaker 1: treat them like house plants. I didn't think we would 2125 02:18:10,480 --> 02:18:14,400 Speaker 1: have Andrew being a goldfish to apologist on this podcast. 2126 02:18:16,120 --> 02:18:18,880 Speaker 1: Correct if I'm wrong, But I don't think Cool committed 2127 02:18:18,879 --> 02:18:22,360 Speaker 1: any like wool crimes or anything within my rights to 2128 02:18:22,480 --> 02:18:26,160 Speaker 1: defend them. They haven't stopped any work crimes either. Plus, 2129 02:18:26,360 --> 02:18:28,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is my police snell kill talking, and 2130 02:18:28,040 --> 02:18:31,760 Speaker 1: I've I've you know, I've I've neglected my fair shaff Yeah, 2131 02:18:32,680 --> 02:18:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, speaking of cross species cooperation. When I was 2132 02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:38,440 Speaker 1: younger and living in Texas, there was this one day 2133 02:18:38,520 --> 02:18:40,760 Speaker 1: where like we're out on this in our like fucking 2134 02:18:40,800 --> 02:18:43,920 Speaker 1: backyard area, and we see walking through the alley behind 2135 02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:47,720 Speaker 1: our houses this massive turtle probably three four pounds, like 2136 02:18:48,000 --> 02:18:51,440 Speaker 1: like easily like three or four feet uh in in 2137 02:18:51,720 --> 02:18:54,760 Speaker 1: circumference on his shell, just like an enormous animal, just 2138 02:18:54,879 --> 02:18:57,800 Speaker 1: like strolling around the neighborhood, not a species that you 2139 02:18:58,520 --> 02:19:01,800 Speaker 1: that you see in Texas wild. So we like kind 2140 02:19:01,800 --> 02:19:04,320 Speaker 1: of try to corral him. We can't lift him, he's massive, 2141 02:19:04,440 --> 02:19:07,119 Speaker 1: but we like corral him into the into our yard area. 2142 02:19:07,160 --> 02:19:09,560 Speaker 1: And give him some cucumbers, and eventually his person comes 2143 02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:12,600 Speaker 1: around and the guy explains that like, yeah, when teenage 2144 02:19:12,600 --> 02:19:14,520 Speaker 1: mimut ninja turtles came out, a lot of people bought 2145 02:19:14,560 --> 02:19:16,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of different kinds of turtles, thinking they were 2146 02:19:16,600 --> 02:19:19,040 Speaker 1: good pets. But they didn't realize that there's a lot 2147 02:19:19,080 --> 02:19:21,600 Speaker 1: of the turtles that get sold like never stopped growing, 2148 02:19:21,800 --> 02:19:23,920 Speaker 1: like if you keep them alive, they just keep getting bigger, 2149 02:19:24,320 --> 02:19:28,680 Speaker 1: and so he like and they smelled about only if 2150 02:19:28,720 --> 02:19:32,280 Speaker 1: they're time. He had adopted this turtle and it lived 2151 02:19:32,280 --> 02:19:35,200 Speaker 1: in his yard and he said like, yeah, he's really strong, 2152 02:19:35,520 --> 02:19:37,360 Speaker 1: Like I have a good fence, but every two or 2153 02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:39,800 Speaker 1: three years he'll just walk through it. Like most of 2154 02:19:39,840 --> 02:19:41,440 Speaker 1: the time he chooses to stay in the yard, but 2155 02:19:41,480 --> 02:19:43,840 Speaker 1: every couple of years he was, I'm just gonna go 2156 02:19:43,959 --> 02:19:45,520 Speaker 1: on a walk and and he's like yeah, he just 2157 02:19:45,600 --> 02:19:47,640 Speaker 1: like breaks through the fence. It takes him about a second, 2158 02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:50,600 Speaker 1: like if he wants to do it. That's like, I 2159 02:19:50,640 --> 02:19:53,480 Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen Baki, have you seen back? No? 2160 02:19:54,640 --> 02:19:58,160 Speaker 1: Is this is this me um and no this is 2161 02:19:58,200 --> 02:20:00,320 Speaker 1: not my my web coming out story. I have not 2162 02:20:00,480 --> 02:20:04,080 Speaker 1: read of you with much in that regard but I 2163 02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:07,680 Speaker 1: started back he recently and the first episode they established 2164 02:20:08,520 --> 02:20:11,560 Speaker 1: that all these people are coming to Tokyo right for 2165 02:20:11,800 --> 02:20:14,960 Speaker 1: like some kind of fighting competition. And the way that 2166 02:20:15,000 --> 02:20:18,320 Speaker 1: they established those people as are dangerous is that these 2167 02:20:18,320 --> 02:20:20,840 Speaker 1: are all like criminals and like death through and so 2168 02:20:21,080 --> 02:20:23,720 Speaker 1: like in the process of being put to death, like 2169 02:20:23,840 --> 02:20:28,320 Speaker 1: one person is, you know, being injectives, only one persons 2170 02:20:28,320 --> 02:20:32,000 Speaker 1: being electrocuts, being hung, and they all managed to break 2171 02:20:32,160 --> 02:20:36,840 Speaker 1: free after they die and like break off the prison easily. 2172 02:20:36,959 --> 02:20:40,560 Speaker 1: This one guy, he was imprisoned underwater. He breaks out 2173 02:20:40,680 --> 02:20:45,120 Speaker 1: of the underwater prison and swims several miles up to 2174 02:20:45,200 --> 02:20:47,520 Speaker 1: the surface and then swims all the way to Tokyo. 2175 02:20:48,200 --> 02:20:51,880 Speaker 1: And it's like, for some reason, not to it will 2176 02:20:52,000 --> 02:20:55,560 Speaker 1: break it out of his inclusion whenever he chooses. Just 2177 02:20:55,720 --> 02:20:59,520 Speaker 1: reminded me of like they're trying to establish his power levels. 2178 02:20:59,720 --> 02:21:04,400 Speaker 1: You No, he's he's too powerful to be contained, um. 2179 02:21:04,600 --> 02:21:07,879 Speaker 1: And he's probably still alive because they live forever um, 2180 02:21:08,600 --> 02:21:11,960 Speaker 1: which is again why they're bad pets. Yeah, because what 2181 02:21:12,040 --> 02:21:15,720 Speaker 1: did you do about slavery? Yeah yeah, yeah, well that 2182 02:21:15,840 --> 02:21:17,440 Speaker 1: what he may not have been around for slavery, but 2183 02:21:18,320 --> 02:21:19,680 Speaker 1: what did you do? What are you going to do 2184 02:21:19,760 --> 02:21:22,000 Speaker 1: the next time they're slavery turtle. You know, are you 2185 02:21:22,040 --> 02:21:23,920 Speaker 1: gonna stop it? I don't think so. You're a turtle. 2186 02:21:24,560 --> 02:21:27,280 Speaker 1: We mean, next time, is this something you should be telling? 2187 02:21:28,360 --> 02:21:33,440 Speaker 1: What is attention to the Supreme Court? It's not. Well 2188 02:21:33,560 --> 02:21:38,240 Speaker 1: in the future, that's sure, that's sure. What leave the 2189 02:21:38,320 --> 02:21:42,640 Speaker 1: turtles out of this? Well if they stop the Supreme Court, 2190 02:21:42,760 --> 02:21:44,600 Speaker 1: I will stop shooting on the turtle. Is you're just 2191 02:21:44,720 --> 02:21:48,360 Speaker 1: doing that meme from where people were like I gave 2192 02:21:48,480 --> 02:21:51,600 Speaker 1: up my plastic straws for the turtles. Where are they now? 2193 02:21:53,320 --> 02:21:55,840 Speaker 1: That was a thing. Yeah, it was bad. I don't 2194 02:21:55,840 --> 02:22:00,240 Speaker 1: remember that. It's like, come on, just get a well. 2195 02:22:01,879 --> 02:22:05,680 Speaker 1: I will say that. I mean, at least for corporative breeders. 2196 02:22:06,760 --> 02:22:10,119 Speaker 1: And I think our our tendency of corperative breeding tendency 2197 02:22:10,200 --> 02:22:12,960 Speaker 1: probably has something to do with the fact that we 2198 02:22:13,320 --> 02:22:17,520 Speaker 1: adopt other species as pets and as members of our family, 2199 02:22:18,280 --> 02:22:21,800 Speaker 1: because you don't really see other animals doing that. No, 2200 02:22:22,680 --> 02:22:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, um, I think there's there's some kind of 2201 02:22:24,879 --> 02:22:29,360 Speaker 1: like fish or crustacean or something that that keeps another 2202 02:22:29,400 --> 02:22:36,279 Speaker 1: species like as livestock. Yeah, there's a couple of species 2203 02:22:36,360 --> 02:22:38,920 Speaker 1: to do versions of that for sure. Right, But I 2204 02:22:39,000 --> 02:22:44,360 Speaker 1: mean we love our dogs and our cats, our ferrets 2205 02:22:44,400 --> 02:22:49,760 Speaker 1: and our snakes and our tarantulas and our ferrets questioned goods. Yeah, 2206 02:22:52,240 --> 02:22:55,320 Speaker 1: people are trying to like domesticate foxes so we could 2207 02:22:55,360 --> 02:22:58,480 Speaker 1: love them too. You know. It's the people they are, 2208 02:22:58,520 --> 02:23:01,720 Speaker 1: people who who keep big cats that, people who keep 2209 02:23:01,840 --> 02:23:05,360 Speaker 1: like ms, and people who keep all kinds. We just 2210 02:23:06,280 --> 02:23:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's like we've got to catch them all, 2211 02:23:08,040 --> 02:23:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, like we just want to take all these 2212 02:23:09,640 --> 02:23:13,160 Speaker 1: creatures and we wanted to love them. I don't know 2213 02:23:13,240 --> 02:23:16,720 Speaker 1: that says about us other than the fact that our 2214 02:23:16,800 --> 02:23:22,360 Speaker 1: cooperative nature extends beyond the boundaries of you know, us 2215 02:23:22,400 --> 02:23:27,480 Speaker 1: as a species. We inhrated very high levels of mutual tolerance, 2216 02:23:27,879 --> 02:23:32,120 Speaker 1: of perspective taken and other pro social impulses from ancestors 2217 02:23:32,160 --> 02:23:34,680 Speaker 1: who use our parents or care and provisioning of the 2218 02:23:34,720 --> 02:23:41,000 Speaker 1: young two survive. I mean, we didn't invent complex corporation. 2219 02:23:41,120 --> 02:23:49,720 Speaker 1: Our pre human ancestors did, but we elaborated upon it. Yeah, 2220 02:23:49,959 --> 02:23:52,680 Speaker 1: it's um. It's always interesting to me to think about that. 2221 02:23:52,760 --> 02:23:55,320 Speaker 1: I think back up to one of the first time 2222 02:23:55,360 --> 02:23:57,480 Speaker 1: I ever went to a war zone was Ukraine, and 2223 02:23:57,560 --> 02:23:59,080 Speaker 1: it was this We were in this little town called 2224 02:23:59,120 --> 02:24:01,480 Speaker 1: of Dificult. It was getting shelled by the Russians, and 2225 02:24:01,560 --> 02:24:03,560 Speaker 1: there was this big the way they do the heating 2226 02:24:03,640 --> 02:24:06,640 Speaker 1: over there, they have these events going underneath, are these 2227 02:24:06,640 --> 02:24:08,960 Speaker 1: tubes going underneath all the houses to supply them with 2228 02:24:09,040 --> 02:24:11,960 Speaker 1: like gas and stuff. And there's this this big was 2229 02:24:12,040 --> 02:24:14,640 Speaker 1: this big central like kind of box thing and in 2230 02:24:15,040 --> 02:24:17,000 Speaker 1: one there's a few of them in the town and 2231 02:24:17,080 --> 02:24:19,400 Speaker 1: stuff that like is the I don't know, I guess 2232 02:24:19,440 --> 02:24:24,440 Speaker 1: it's like the like nexus of a bunch of different 2233 02:24:24,640 --> 02:24:29,360 Speaker 1: houses all whatever heating systems, so it's warm, and the 2234 02:24:29,480 --> 02:24:31,520 Speaker 1: people they're like when the war started, a bunch of 2235 02:24:31,560 --> 02:24:34,640 Speaker 1: people fled and they left pets behind, you know, sometimes 2236 02:24:34,680 --> 02:24:37,320 Speaker 1: they didn't really have a choice because it's war. Um. 2237 02:24:37,440 --> 02:24:39,320 Speaker 1: So there were all these cats and dogs, and soon 2238 02:24:39,480 --> 02:24:42,040 Speaker 1: all these breeding cats and dogs, all these kittens and puppies, 2239 02:24:42,560 --> 02:24:44,879 Speaker 1: and people who lived there had like turned that little 2240 02:24:45,040 --> 02:24:48,400 Speaker 1: junction box for the heating system into this like massive 2241 02:24:48,520 --> 02:24:52,560 Speaker 1: kind of open air cat and dog sanctuary. So like 2242 02:24:52,680 --> 02:24:54,760 Speaker 1: there were all of these like dozens and dozens of 2243 02:24:54,760 --> 02:24:57,160 Speaker 1: puppies and kittens just like living together in this big 2244 02:24:57,280 --> 02:25:00,920 Speaker 1: heating box. Um. In then the over this like being 2245 02:25:00,959 --> 02:25:02,879 Speaker 1: taken care of by all these local ladies who would 2246 02:25:03,000 --> 02:25:05,120 Speaker 1: scrounge up food every morning and make sure that they 2247 02:25:05,160 --> 02:25:08,640 Speaker 1: were all taken care of. UM. And it was interesting 2248 02:25:08,680 --> 02:25:10,600 Speaker 1: because you could see all these like cats and dogs 2249 02:25:11,040 --> 02:25:13,120 Speaker 1: living together and all of these people coming together to 2250 02:25:13,200 --> 02:25:16,360 Speaker 1: take care of animals they didn't know. UM. At the 2251 02:25:16,400 --> 02:25:18,959 Speaker 1: same time, like all of the people were doing their 2252 02:25:19,080 --> 02:25:21,400 Speaker 1: level best to murder the folks like a mile and 2253 02:25:21,440 --> 02:25:25,720 Speaker 1: a half away and vice versa. UM. So we contain 2254 02:25:25,840 --> 02:25:30,600 Speaker 1: multitudes of human beings definitely. I mean that's possible to 2255 02:25:30,760 --> 02:25:34,080 Speaker 1: write like the fact that we are sue eager to 2256 02:25:34,240 --> 02:25:39,000 Speaker 1: like share another emotional steeds, you know, to empathize and 2257 02:25:39,480 --> 02:25:43,840 Speaker 1: do we either we assume eager to involve ourselves and 2258 02:25:44,040 --> 02:25:47,680 Speaker 1: and give and share with those who are unrelated to us. 2259 02:25:48,560 --> 02:25:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean there are a lot of species that do 2260 02:25:52,120 --> 02:25:54,520 Speaker 1: not realise the young at all. Um. And then there 2261 02:25:54,600 --> 02:25:57,440 Speaker 1: was the do and try to kill other people's young, 2262 02:25:58,280 --> 02:26:01,000 Speaker 1: and there was a two stick care of their own young. 2263 02:26:01,879 --> 02:26:07,640 Speaker 1: But you know, we even in this like super individualistic capitalists, 2264 02:26:07,680 --> 02:26:10,280 Speaker 1: will we still find ways to look out for each other. 2265 02:26:11,320 --> 02:26:15,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, of course, you know, 2266 02:26:15,720 --> 02:26:19,600 Speaker 1: cooperative reading doesn't mean that there's like constant like on 2267 02:26:19,800 --> 02:26:26,000 Speaker 1: either dynastore like cooperation and yeah all the time, it 2268 02:26:26,080 --> 02:26:29,879 Speaker 1: still can't be competition, which you know, all these different things. Yeah, 2269 02:26:31,879 --> 02:26:40,160 Speaker 1: but behaviorally, anatomically, and emotionally modern humans cooperative breeders. And 2270 02:26:40,240 --> 02:26:44,320 Speaker 1: the crazy part is those you know, three um traits 2271 02:26:44,360 --> 02:26:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, behavior and not to be in an emotion, 2272 02:26:47,720 --> 02:26:53,560 Speaker 1: Those illustrats not evolved simultaneously. So for example, of physical 2273 02:26:53,680 --> 02:26:56,040 Speaker 1: features like our eyes and the fact that our eyes 2274 02:26:56,240 --> 02:26:59,000 Speaker 1: are are able to you know, we can see the 2275 02:26:59,040 --> 02:27:02,760 Speaker 1: whites and our eyes and that way we can put 2276 02:27:02,800 --> 02:27:05,240 Speaker 1: ourselves in other people's perspectives and that kind of thing, 2277 02:27:05,320 --> 02:27:07,840 Speaker 1: we could see the emotions more clearly. You know, the 2278 02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:11,760 Speaker 1: fact that we we were prone to sharing our smiles, 2279 02:27:12,440 --> 02:27:17,840 Speaker 1: and the fact that, um, you know, our vocal courts 2280 02:27:17,879 --> 02:27:20,240 Speaker 1: have such range to be able to communicate to many 2281 02:27:20,280 --> 02:27:26,280 Speaker 1: different things. Um. While these are hallmarks of the fact 2282 02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:33,320 Speaker 1: that you know, even before our super big brains developed, 2283 02:27:34,320 --> 02:27:36,720 Speaker 1: we already getting these treats that would have helped us 2284 02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:41,400 Speaker 1: in cooperation. But I wanted a lot of time though, 2285 02:27:41,680 --> 02:27:43,199 Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of the shapes we developed 2286 02:27:43,240 --> 02:27:47,480 Speaker 1: before language. Um, it's like what was the first word 2287 02:27:47,640 --> 02:27:50,960 Speaker 1: of humanity? You know what was the first sentence? What 2288 02:27:51,080 --> 02:27:54,640 Speaker 1: was the first thing like we said? And how did 2289 02:27:54,680 --> 02:27:59,200 Speaker 1: other people react when the person said it. I can 2290 02:27:59,280 --> 02:28:04,280 Speaker 1: imagine that, you know, like agriculture, something that's developed independently, um, 2291 02:28:04,640 --> 02:28:10,199 Speaker 1: multiple different occasions in different places. But I still wonder, 2292 02:28:10,560 --> 02:28:15,680 Speaker 1: like what those foost conversations might have been avoked. Yeah, 2293 02:28:15,720 --> 02:28:17,560 Speaker 1: I mean I think a lot of them probably would 2294 02:28:17,560 --> 02:28:19,959 Speaker 1: have been arguments with other people who didn't want us 2295 02:28:20,000 --> 02:28:25,520 Speaker 1: to do words. UM who will ultimately right, you know 2296 02:28:26,240 --> 02:28:32,360 Speaker 1: if if only Yeah, I don't know, it's interesting, Like 2297 02:28:32,480 --> 02:28:35,480 Speaker 1: I think it probably like we we just did a 2298 02:28:35,520 --> 02:28:40,560 Speaker 1: couple of episodes about the history of of of gynecology UM, 2299 02:28:40,959 --> 02:28:42,760 Speaker 1: and one of the things that we talked about at 2300 02:28:42,800 --> 02:28:46,080 Speaker 1: the start was like the prehistory of medicine, which which 2301 02:28:46,240 --> 02:28:50,039 Speaker 1: likely began in an organized way UM by like likely 2302 02:28:50,080 --> 02:28:53,320 Speaker 1: the first people practicing medicine in any way, we're pregnant 2303 02:28:53,360 --> 02:28:55,480 Speaker 1: women and women who had been pregnant trying to help 2304 02:28:55,520 --> 02:28:59,080 Speaker 1: each other survive pregnancy, right, UM. And I wouldn't be 2305 02:28:59,160 --> 02:29:02,000 Speaker 1: surprised if at I mean, food gathering is obviously the 2306 02:29:02,040 --> 02:29:04,480 Speaker 1: other one, but I wouldn't be surprised if like language 2307 02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:08,000 Speaker 1: started as a way to try and like communicate and 2308 02:29:08,560 --> 02:29:14,640 Speaker 1: better survive making babies because it's it's like super dangerous 2309 02:29:14,680 --> 02:29:19,000 Speaker 1: and also entirely necessary um and and something that kind 2310 02:29:19,040 --> 02:29:22,400 Speaker 1: of particularly benefits from communication. So I don't know, I 2311 02:29:22,400 --> 02:29:24,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't be shocked if that was like the first thing 2312 02:29:24,520 --> 02:29:29,240 Speaker 1: we talked about, so to speak. Mm hmm, that makes sense. 2313 02:29:30,240 --> 02:29:32,440 Speaker 1: But I'm also thinking as well, and it just occurred 2314 02:29:32,480 --> 02:29:36,840 Speaker 1: to me it's pretty possible like that the first language 2315 02:29:36,959 --> 02:29:40,680 Speaker 1: was not spoken language. I feel like it may have 2316 02:29:40,800 --> 02:29:44,080 Speaker 1: been like a form of sign language, you know, because 2317 02:29:44,200 --> 02:29:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, we have these hands, and people tend to 2318 02:29:47,160 --> 02:29:50,200 Speaker 1: talk with their hands, so yeah, oh yes, I think 2319 02:29:50,320 --> 02:29:53,200 Speaker 1: hypothesis is that, you know, we use the hands to 2320 02:29:53,240 --> 02:29:57,840 Speaker 1: communicate things before we started speaking. I mean, the fact 2321 02:29:57,840 --> 02:30:01,240 Speaker 1: that we were able to teach apes, you know, other 2322 02:30:01,320 --> 02:30:05,000 Speaker 1: apes to use sign language, I think that's a good 2323 02:30:05,080 --> 02:30:09,640 Speaker 1: sign that we can lead to communicate with that face. Yeah, 2324 02:30:10,040 --> 02:30:13,199 Speaker 1: I mean, it's also you know, probably how our communication 2325 02:30:13,280 --> 02:30:15,560 Speaker 1: with dogs started, because that's one of the things that 2326 02:30:15,640 --> 02:30:18,160 Speaker 1: makes them special is they're pretty much alone in animals 2327 02:30:18,200 --> 02:30:21,080 Speaker 1: and that they like and kind of instinctively grow up 2328 02:30:21,360 --> 02:30:24,040 Speaker 1: understanding that when we gesture at them it means stuff 2329 02:30:24,080 --> 02:30:27,119 Speaker 1: like if you point dogs will look where you're pointing 2330 02:30:27,160 --> 02:30:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the time rather than at you, which 2331 02:30:29,080 --> 02:30:31,320 Speaker 1: is like a rare trait in animals. So yeah, I 2332 02:30:31,360 --> 02:30:34,880 Speaker 1: think you're probably right on the money there. Huh. I 2333 02:30:34,879 --> 02:30:38,480 Speaker 1: didn't even think about that. That's true. That's true. And 2334 02:30:38,560 --> 02:30:40,240 Speaker 1: of course that makes it fun because you could always 2335 02:30:40,280 --> 02:30:46,560 Speaker 1: fake them out and throw something stupid to do. Yeah. Yeah, 2336 02:30:46,879 --> 02:30:50,560 Speaker 1: and does fall for that ship So I love she 2337 02:30:50,640 --> 02:30:52,560 Speaker 1: does not fall for that. I can't fake her. I 2338 02:30:52,600 --> 02:30:55,600 Speaker 1: can't fake her out. That's probably why she's the woman 2339 02:30:55,640 --> 02:30:58,880 Speaker 1: of the host. I'm you're all wrong pretending to throw 2340 02:30:59,200 --> 02:31:01,920 Speaker 1: stuff at a dog and then it goes running and 2341 02:31:02,000 --> 02:31:04,440 Speaker 1: then it realizes that you faked it, Like that's the best. 2342 02:31:05,600 --> 02:31:07,760 Speaker 1: I can't relate because if I try to do that, 2343 02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:12,279 Speaker 1: she looks at me like a good try. Uh huh, Okay, Sophie. 2344 02:31:12,320 --> 02:31:15,400 Speaker 1: Where you need to go is corgy Con in San Francisco. 2345 02:31:15,440 --> 02:31:18,720 Speaker 1: One of these years will they let Anderson? And even 2346 02:31:18,760 --> 02:31:23,120 Speaker 1: though she's only she does she's only party. There's nothing 2347 02:31:23,160 --> 02:31:27,480 Speaker 1: but acceptance of corgy Con acceptance and hundreds of corgies 2348 02:31:27,560 --> 02:31:30,440 Speaker 1: frolicking in the surf. It rules. She'll try to hurt 2349 02:31:30,480 --> 02:31:34,000 Speaker 1: them all. Yeah, they are all trying to hurt all 2350 02:31:34,040 --> 02:31:39,160 Speaker 1: of them into it. They are all very excited and 2351 02:31:39,240 --> 02:31:41,120 Speaker 1: don't know what to do with each other. It moves 2352 02:31:42,680 --> 02:31:46,560 Speaker 1: so as the book progresses, Hotty spend some time talking 2353 02:31:46,600 --> 02:31:50,400 Speaker 1: about how we are similar to and different from other 2354 02:31:50,560 --> 02:31:55,520 Speaker 1: greed EAPs, tweeling about how we use eye contact and 2355 02:31:55,640 --> 02:32:00,200 Speaker 1: smiles to bond even from a young age. Um, you hm, 2356 02:32:00,959 --> 02:32:03,320 Speaker 1: we people we've be tend to hear about it. But 2357 02:32:03,600 --> 02:32:09,160 Speaker 1: the fact that babies cries are so attuned towards attention 2358 02:32:09,560 --> 02:32:16,240 Speaker 1: and capturing the attention of people, Um, these are all 2359 02:32:16,600 --> 02:32:21,720 Speaker 1: in like basterds. Yeah, yeah, I mean I was. I 2360 02:32:21,800 --> 02:32:25,080 Speaker 1: was a screamer. Apparently I used to real real ball, 2361 02:32:26,480 --> 02:32:29,400 Speaker 1: ball and ball and ball. In fact, one story I 2362 02:32:29,520 --> 02:32:31,840 Speaker 1: was told was that the neighbor called and was like 2363 02:32:32,280 --> 02:32:34,680 Speaker 1: something happening to Andrew, and my parents were like, nah, 2364 02:32:34,760 --> 02:32:38,199 Speaker 1: he's just grand. There's like three o'clock in the morning. 2365 02:32:42,520 --> 02:32:45,760 Speaker 1: But I mean, look at me now, I'm balling for justice, 2366 02:32:46,120 --> 02:32:55,400 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah. One interesting treat that you know humans 2367 02:32:55,480 --> 02:32:59,760 Speaker 1: have is all willingness to like share our babies with others, 2368 02:33:00,600 --> 02:33:03,160 Speaker 1: other grade apes. You know, those mothers. They tend to 2369 02:33:03,200 --> 02:33:06,280 Speaker 1: have like constant contact and care with their children, you know, 2370 02:33:06,400 --> 02:33:09,040 Speaker 1: like they don't let others touch their children at all, 2371 02:33:09,800 --> 02:33:13,640 Speaker 1: probably because like other mothers tend to want to kill 2372 02:33:13,720 --> 02:33:17,320 Speaker 1: their kids or of course harm to their kids, they 2373 02:33:17,400 --> 02:33:20,080 Speaker 1: tend to be very protective of them. Whereas you know, 2374 02:33:20,320 --> 02:33:22,600 Speaker 1: as all parents, we are you know, full of fledged 2375 02:33:22,760 --> 02:33:26,760 Speaker 1: cooperative readers. You know, we have not only shared our 2376 02:33:26,840 --> 02:33:30,720 Speaker 1: young with others, but al paar intervals have been been 2377 02:33:30,800 --> 02:33:34,680 Speaker 1: recorded breastfeeding the young of others, you know, and and 2378 02:33:35,120 --> 02:33:39,160 Speaker 1: masticating and passing like hard to digest foods to infunts. 2379 02:33:43,240 --> 02:33:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm mixing up my terms a bit in terms of 2380 02:33:45,560 --> 02:33:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, what what is a primate and what isn't 2381 02:33:48,120 --> 02:33:53,360 Speaker 1: ape versus what is you know, just whatever. But mamosets 2382 02:33:53,400 --> 02:33:58,720 Speaker 1: and tamarins which are colored strike kids or calatressids colortry kids, 2383 02:34:00,120 --> 02:34:03,600 Speaker 1: they are also corporative breeders and they're very fast breeders 2384 02:34:03,640 --> 02:34:09,080 Speaker 1: as well, rapid rapid breeders. Um, so you know, good 2385 02:34:09,120 --> 02:34:11,360 Speaker 1: for them. It's also typical of our species. We tend 2386 02:34:11,400 --> 02:34:14,480 Speaker 1: to be very fast breeders, and that's why we reshoot 2387 02:34:14,520 --> 02:34:18,760 Speaker 1: all the other great tapes. What I find interesting as 2388 02:34:18,800 --> 02:34:21,480 Speaker 1: well is that we'll be able to breed so rapidly 2389 02:34:21,520 --> 02:34:25,960 Speaker 1: despite the fact that our um do you'll remember um 2390 02:34:26,120 --> 02:34:29,920 Speaker 1: the word for like carrying a child. I'm just blacking 2391 02:34:30,040 --> 02:34:34,000 Speaker 1: right now, Gregors. No, no, no, I think you're you're 2392 02:34:34,040 --> 02:34:36,800 Speaker 1: thinking of the incubation period. Is that what we're trying 2393 02:34:36,800 --> 02:34:40,800 Speaker 1: to think of. Yeah, but that's such a that that 2394 02:34:40,840 --> 02:34:45,120 Speaker 1: feels like a very the humanizing way of witness. Yeah, 2395 02:34:46,240 --> 02:34:49,560 Speaker 1: I'll just say that carrying a baby, you know, and 2396 02:34:50,280 --> 02:34:55,960 Speaker 1: the costs because on you know, woman's body, on humans body, Um, 2397 02:34:56,480 --> 02:34:59,040 Speaker 1: it is like a whole thing. It's a whole thing. Yeah. 2398 02:34:59,280 --> 02:35:01,120 Speaker 1: And if we keep will have ha been so many 2399 02:35:01,360 --> 02:35:04,600 Speaker 1: in one lifetime despite the cost necessary to raise each 2400 02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:09,199 Speaker 1: I mean other animals they have like meets and seasons 2401 02:35:09,360 --> 02:35:12,879 Speaker 1: and you know, they have set amounts of children they 2402 02:35:12,920 --> 02:35:16,720 Speaker 1: could have in their lifetime. But no, mm hm, you 2403 02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:18,960 Speaker 1: know we could just I mean, they're their stories of 2404 02:35:19,200 --> 02:35:23,560 Speaker 1: women who have had like dozens of kids, which is 2405 02:35:23,800 --> 02:35:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, unfortunate circumstances because you know, in those cases 2406 02:35:27,200 --> 02:35:32,880 Speaker 1: it tends to be um, not necessarily willing. But the 2407 02:35:32,959 --> 02:35:36,360 Speaker 1: fact that we are capable of having many kids is 2408 02:35:37,920 --> 02:35:42,440 Speaker 1: lends towards the importance of having support systems in place. 2409 02:35:42,879 --> 02:35:46,440 Speaker 1: Because other animals don't tend to have more children they 2410 02:35:46,480 --> 02:35:49,640 Speaker 1: can care for if that is you know, the care 2411 02:35:49,720 --> 02:35:51,960 Speaker 1: for children. A lot of them just eat their kids 2412 02:35:52,040 --> 02:35:55,520 Speaker 1: if they can't care for them exactly. Can't do that once, 2413 02:35:56,560 --> 02:36:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, makes sense, Yeah, whereas we kind of evolved 2414 02:36:02,600 --> 02:36:06,560 Speaker 1: to have support systems in placement, speaking of eating babies, 2415 02:36:06,720 --> 02:36:10,160 Speaker 1: kind of there kind of is a dark side to that, 2416 02:36:10,680 --> 02:36:14,800 Speaker 1: um because even though we tend to have you know, 2417 02:36:14,840 --> 02:36:17,920 Speaker 1: these children and stuff, and we tend to were supposed 2418 02:36:17,920 --> 02:36:21,000 Speaker 1: to have these support networks to care for them, the 2419 02:36:21,120 --> 02:36:25,200 Speaker 1: practice of infanticide is actually something that has a long 2420 02:36:26,080 --> 02:36:33,160 Speaker 1: long history UM in human practice, where if a mother 2421 02:36:33,320 --> 02:36:37,480 Speaker 1: determines that they're not able to raise their child, they 2422 02:36:37,520 --> 02:36:41,360 Speaker 1: don't have the support systems in place to care for 2423 02:36:41,440 --> 02:36:49,000 Speaker 1: that child. Different practices would typically be used to you know, 2424 02:36:50,280 --> 02:36:55,080 Speaker 1: deal with that child. And that's of course what makes 2425 02:36:56,840 --> 02:37:04,640 Speaker 1: the anti abortion stances um soon inhumane, you know, because Yeah, 2426 02:37:05,640 --> 02:37:09,600 Speaker 1: the whole reason we that abortion is so um important 2427 02:37:09,720 --> 02:37:12,960 Speaker 1: is because it protects the you know, the autonomy and 2428 02:37:13,200 --> 02:37:17,200 Speaker 1: the agency of you know, people who can carry children. 2429 02:37:17,959 --> 02:37:23,960 Speaker 1: And yet in this will it continues to atomize us 2430 02:37:24,040 --> 02:37:27,920 Speaker 1: and individualize us and separate us um you know, shipping 2431 02:37:27,959 --> 02:37:29,960 Speaker 1: some people of their support networks, so we can in 2432 02:37:30,040 --> 02:37:35,720 Speaker 1: our support networks. It's still expected to and punished heavily 2433 02:37:35,800 --> 02:37:40,840 Speaker 1: if you do not just pump out as many children 2434 02:37:40,920 --> 02:37:44,480 Speaker 1: as you can. And it's it's sick, it's really sick. Yeah, 2435 02:37:44,600 --> 02:37:48,039 Speaker 1: that's not great when it comes to those support networks. 2436 02:37:48,680 --> 02:37:53,480 Speaker 1: Most people are familiar with, you know, extended family like 2437 02:37:53,680 --> 02:37:58,280 Speaker 1: for example, grand appearance UM and I fact, an infant 2438 02:37:58,280 --> 02:38:03,280 Speaker 1: survival is significantly affected by a grandmother's presence, which is 2439 02:38:03,360 --> 02:38:11,760 Speaker 1: why humans tend to live long past their reproductively viable period. 2440 02:38:12,280 --> 02:38:15,760 Speaker 1: You know, human females live after menopause for pretty long 2441 02:38:15,840 --> 02:38:22,240 Speaker 1: time in commarison to other species, and of course their 2442 02:38:22,280 --> 02:38:28,920 Speaker 1: grandmothers and there of course fathers. UM. There are sisters 2443 02:38:29,120 --> 02:38:32,760 Speaker 1: and god parents and really a lot of other um 2444 02:38:33,840 --> 02:38:41,000 Speaker 1: cultural systems in place, even polyandrous meeting UM. I think 2445 02:38:41,040 --> 02:38:44,320 Speaker 1: I mentioned that in the previous in the previous episode. 2446 02:38:46,080 --> 02:38:52,039 Speaker 1: There are also forms of like bilocal flexible residents patterns 2447 02:38:52,360 --> 02:38:54,879 Speaker 1: where you know, you always have kin around to take 2448 02:38:54,920 --> 02:39:02,320 Speaker 1: care of your infants. And I would say that it's 2449 02:39:02,560 --> 02:39:06,560 Speaker 1: it's kind of tough because a lot of people these days, 2450 02:39:09,040 --> 02:39:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, struggled with the extended families. Um, it's very 2451 02:39:12,640 --> 02:39:18,440 Speaker 1: much cool. Um, I love you, but I'm glad we 2452 02:39:18,520 --> 02:39:21,560 Speaker 1: live in separate kind of situation, you know, Like extended 2453 02:39:21,600 --> 02:39:24,240 Speaker 1: families definitely have a lot of proves and cons um 2454 02:39:24,840 --> 02:39:27,840 Speaker 1: which is why we actually find I think interesting in 2455 02:39:27,840 --> 02:39:34,560 Speaker 1: a lot of examples of chosen families throughout different societies, 2456 02:39:34,560 --> 02:39:38,200 Speaker 1: and also even there's some evidence that that might have 2457 02:39:38,320 --> 02:39:41,040 Speaker 1: in the case in the past as well, where unrelated 2458 02:39:41,080 --> 02:39:48,560 Speaker 1: people would form groups together um. As one example, I 2459 02:39:48,640 --> 02:39:52,640 Speaker 1: remember reading about, of course this can't necessarily extended to 2460 02:39:52,959 --> 02:39:56,280 Speaker 1: prehistoric times, but I've seen it in multiple different hunter 2461 02:39:56,360 --> 02:40:01,240 Speaker 1: gatherer situations. But um, where we have this this clan 2462 02:40:01,360 --> 02:40:06,280 Speaker 1: system in place, um, and you can not so how 2463 02:40:06,360 --> 02:40:09,520 Speaker 1: far you travel, you can expect to receive care for 2464 02:40:09,680 --> 02:40:12,640 Speaker 1: members of your clan. UM. In North America, I think 2465 02:40:12,680 --> 02:40:14,520 Speaker 1: it was like the Beer clan and the Elk Plan 2466 02:40:14,600 --> 02:40:20,400 Speaker 1: and all these different plans UM. In Aboriginal Australia, they 2467 02:40:20,400 --> 02:40:22,920 Speaker 1: ablso have different groups as well, and so people were 2468 02:40:22,920 --> 02:40:25,840 Speaker 1: able to interrupt with each other across huge distances and 2469 02:40:26,320 --> 02:40:29,040 Speaker 1: set them in different places and connect with others to 2470 02:40:29,120 --> 02:40:35,360 Speaker 1: find kin you really necessarily directly related. Yeah, there's a 2471 02:40:35,400 --> 02:40:37,080 Speaker 1: couple I mean there's a there's a book called sets 2472 02:40:37,120 --> 02:40:39,520 Speaker 1: It On that I read many many years ago that's 2473 02:40:39,520 --> 02:40:42,040 Speaker 1: about kind of like the evolution of human sexuality and 2474 02:40:42,120 --> 02:40:44,760 Speaker 1: how some of it's been like how different cultures have 2475 02:40:44,879 --> 02:40:48,560 Speaker 1: looked at things like like what makes someone apparent UM, 2476 02:40:48,920 --> 02:40:51,400 Speaker 1: And there's all these different attitudes, Like before we had 2477 02:40:51,480 --> 02:40:54,280 Speaker 1: kind of the scientific understanding of like where you know, 2478 02:40:54,480 --> 02:40:58,200 Speaker 1: how how babies are conceived um, that we have now 2479 02:40:58,320 --> 02:41:01,720 Speaker 1: there were all these different attitudes this idea and I 2480 02:41:01,840 --> 02:41:05,440 Speaker 1: forget the name of the people who, but they still 2481 02:41:05,480 --> 02:41:08,080 Speaker 1: exist with somewhere in Latin America, and their their their 2482 02:41:08,120 --> 02:41:12,800 Speaker 1: belief was essentially that when you got someone pregnant, that 2483 02:41:12,959 --> 02:41:17,440 Speaker 1: was the start of the process, and then after like conception, 2484 02:41:18,040 --> 02:41:22,760 Speaker 1: the person with the baby would go around and yes, yes, 2485 02:41:23,000 --> 02:41:25,199 Speaker 1: I remember that woman for the baby, and the idea 2486 02:41:25,280 --> 02:41:27,120 Speaker 1: was that like, well, yeah, when they fucked, that person's 2487 02:41:27,680 --> 02:41:30,080 Speaker 1: like essence gets added to this forming child. And one 2488 02:41:30,080 --> 02:41:31,880 Speaker 1: of the things that that does socially is it means 2489 02:41:31,959 --> 02:41:35,400 Speaker 1: that it means that for that community, UM, children weren't 2490 02:41:35,400 --> 02:41:37,200 Speaker 1: seen as having one father. They're seen as having a 2491 02:41:37,240 --> 02:41:39,480 Speaker 1: bunch of fathers, all of whom were like responsible for 2492 02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:41,560 Speaker 1: teaching the kid and raising it, which is like, oh, 2493 02:41:41,680 --> 02:41:45,320 Speaker 1: that's a very sensible way to, uh, to organize your 2494 02:41:45,320 --> 02:41:48,800 Speaker 1: little society is to is to is to ensure that like, 2495 02:41:49,280 --> 02:41:52,720 Speaker 1: the kids coming up have as many adults who are 2496 02:41:52,800 --> 02:41:55,760 Speaker 1: like responsible for them as possible, which is, broadly speaking, 2497 02:41:56,600 --> 02:41:58,040 Speaker 1: the best thing you can do for kids is to 2498 02:41:58,120 --> 02:42:00,160 Speaker 1: have a bunch of adults be interested in their their 2499 02:42:00,400 --> 02:42:05,720 Speaker 1: their their success exactly because I mean, like, if you 2500 02:42:05,840 --> 02:42:09,160 Speaker 1: have like one of the best hunters in the village 2501 02:42:09,200 --> 02:42:11,519 Speaker 1: raised in your child, and you have the best craftsman 2502 02:42:11,560 --> 02:42:13,440 Speaker 1: of the villageries in your child, and you have the 2503 02:42:13,520 --> 02:42:15,680 Speaker 1: best fisher villageries and child, that child is gonna have 2504 02:42:15,680 --> 02:42:18,240 Speaker 1: a very well rounded education. You know, it's going to 2505 02:42:18,280 --> 02:42:19,880 Speaker 1: be able to learn a lot of different skills that 2506 02:42:20,160 --> 02:42:23,160 Speaker 1: they're going to need. I mean, that's just one of 2507 02:42:23,320 --> 02:42:27,200 Speaker 1: the many positive effects of having multiple care givers. The 2508 02:42:27,280 --> 02:42:30,640 Speaker 1: development of a child's world view and sense of self, 2509 02:42:30,800 --> 02:42:34,279 Speaker 1: their concept of self and others, their concept of empathy, 2510 02:42:35,000 --> 02:42:39,440 Speaker 1: the concept of independence, how they how they view the 2511 02:42:39,480 --> 02:42:44,880 Speaker 1: world as either dangerous or insecure or giving and welcoming, 2512 02:42:46,640 --> 02:42:49,040 Speaker 1: and so I mean, we are so used to this 2513 02:42:49,440 --> 02:42:55,320 Speaker 1: nuclear family world view, which is these independent um households 2514 02:42:56,080 --> 02:43:00,440 Speaker 1: that we don't consider the fact that having a broad 2515 02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:05,080 Speaker 1: range of people raising them is actually crucial to their 2516 02:43:05,240 --> 02:43:11,400 Speaker 1: personal development as children, to the human development really having 2517 02:43:11,400 --> 02:43:15,240 Speaker 1: all those different perspectives and stuff in place. And I mean, 2518 02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:19,560 Speaker 1: that's part of what Pretty talks about, especially in her 2519 02:43:19,600 --> 02:43:28,440 Speaker 1: final chapter, that being how in modern times, the accumulation 2520 02:43:28,560 --> 02:43:34,720 Speaker 1: of property um, the emergence of patriarchy um, even the 2521 02:43:34,760 --> 02:43:38,240 Speaker 1: stuff in the post industrial era, all of these would 2522 02:43:38,280 --> 02:43:43,200 Speaker 1: prompt to shift from cooperative breeding, from cooperation between groups, 2523 02:43:43,800 --> 02:43:47,600 Speaker 1: two war between groups, especially with property, because when you 2524 02:43:47,680 --> 02:43:51,400 Speaker 1: have property, you have a need to hold onswer property. 2525 02:43:51,879 --> 02:43:57,240 Speaker 1: And the whole idea of property is you and yours, 2526 02:43:57,320 --> 02:44:04,760 Speaker 1: the exclusion of all others, right, you know. And so 2527 02:44:05,920 --> 02:44:08,680 Speaker 1: at the end of her book, she also speculates we 2528 02:44:08,800 --> 02:44:13,720 Speaker 1: might be losing our art of nurture because we are 2529 02:44:13,920 --> 02:44:18,800 Speaker 1: continually evolving um. But she wonders what might be potential 2530 02:44:18,840 --> 02:44:22,360 Speaker 1: evolutionary effects we if we're wearing children who are not 2531 02:44:22,520 --> 02:44:26,640 Speaker 1: living in internet contact with a variety of caregivers, because 2532 02:44:26,800 --> 02:44:30,480 Speaker 1: especially within those first two years of life, influence rate 2533 02:44:30,600 --> 02:44:35,000 Speaker 1: and responsible care taking relationships developed in their potentials for empathy, 2534 02:44:35,680 --> 02:44:40,600 Speaker 1: mind reading, and cooperation and collaboration. I mean, these behaviors 2535 02:44:40,720 --> 02:44:44,960 Speaker 1: are the outcome of complex interactions between both genes and nurture. 2536 02:44:45,840 --> 02:44:50,640 Speaker 1: The question is, how can these in their potentials remain 2537 02:44:52,520 --> 02:44:55,439 Speaker 1: more than potentials, you know, I mean, because the development 2538 02:44:55,520 --> 02:44:59,000 Speaker 1: of them is far from guaranteed. A lot of children 2539 02:44:59,040 --> 02:45:03,760 Speaker 1: these days are raised without extensive social contact. UM. I mean, 2540 02:45:03,800 --> 02:45:06,879 Speaker 1: even in the year of COVID, where all children are 2541 02:45:06,879 --> 02:45:10,800 Speaker 1: isolated at home, especially the heights of pandemic. I really 2542 02:45:10,879 --> 02:45:15,800 Speaker 1: wonder if we will see like a Mark at like 2543 02:45:16,160 --> 02:45:20,680 Speaker 1: distinct generation of like within a range of two years 2544 02:45:21,920 --> 02:45:29,400 Speaker 1: of children who just aren't as socialized because for those 2545 02:45:29,440 --> 02:45:32,320 Speaker 1: first two years of their life they were kind of isolated. Well, 2546 02:45:32,400 --> 02:45:34,560 Speaker 1: those first few years, they're like, they're kind of isolated 2547 02:45:35,680 --> 02:45:41,480 Speaker 1: because there's this lack of empathy, lack of corporative skills, 2548 02:45:41,640 --> 02:45:48,840 Speaker 1: and lack of attachment that may cause it's Mr Mark, 2549 02:45:49,040 --> 02:45:53,480 Speaker 1: It's it's really trauma. Um. But trauma doesn't necessarily stop 2550 02:45:53,520 --> 02:45:58,360 Speaker 1: people from continuing that drauma, from reproducing and carrying that on. 2551 02:45:58,640 --> 02:46:00,440 Speaker 1: And so I really I'm really curious us to see 2552 02:46:00,440 --> 02:46:03,040 Speaker 1: what the effects that might be and also what we 2553 02:46:03,120 --> 02:46:08,160 Speaker 1: can do to try to um cube that negative impact. 2554 02:46:12,160 --> 02:46:17,440 Speaker 1: The last question she asked is, really will humans in 2555 02:46:17,520 --> 02:46:22,520 Speaker 1: the future still be empathetic and curious and about the 2556 02:46:22,560 --> 02:46:25,720 Speaker 1: emotions of others because of our ancient heritage. Can you 2557 02:46:25,760 --> 02:46:30,120 Speaker 1: not care I'm paraphrasing here, or will these systems that 2558 02:46:30,280 --> 02:46:38,640 Speaker 1: we have in place evolve us in the more Marcafellion direction. Well, 2559 02:46:38,720 --> 02:46:41,360 Speaker 1: I guess that's the mystery that we're all going to 2560 02:46:41,440 --> 02:46:44,600 Speaker 1: get to watch unfold in pieces, at least over the 2561 02:46:44,680 --> 02:46:46,880 Speaker 1: course of you know, the rest of our lives and 2562 02:46:46,959 --> 02:46:51,000 Speaker 1: everyone else's lives. It is, I don't know. I I 2563 02:46:51,640 --> 02:46:55,680 Speaker 1: think the overall arch of it speaks more to the 2564 02:46:55,800 --> 02:46:59,400 Speaker 1: things that about us that are good into increasing cooperation, 2565 02:46:59,560 --> 02:47:03,320 Speaker 1: because that is like the story of the last couple 2566 02:47:03,440 --> 02:47:06,000 Speaker 1: hundred thousand years of human evolution, although at the same 2567 02:47:06,080 --> 02:47:09,880 Speaker 1: time some of that a lot of that cooperation has 2568 02:47:09,959 --> 02:47:13,200 Speaker 1: gone towards fucked up ends as well. Like, I mean, 2569 02:47:13,280 --> 02:47:15,680 Speaker 1: all of the good and the bad things happening right 2570 02:47:15,720 --> 02:47:18,800 Speaker 1: now are are one way or the other examples of cooperation, right, 2571 02:47:19,000 --> 02:47:25,960 Speaker 1: Like it's it's, uh, yeah, I don't know, let's help 2572 02:47:26,040 --> 02:47:30,400 Speaker 1: things get better. So I think we could do more 2573 02:47:30,480 --> 02:47:35,400 Speaker 1: than hoope, I think we can act. Yeah, We're going 2574 02:47:35,480 --> 02:47:37,360 Speaker 1: to have I mean, like that's the thing, right like 2575 02:47:37,480 --> 02:47:40,760 Speaker 1: part of how specifically in the United States, I mean, 2576 02:47:40,920 --> 02:47:44,080 Speaker 1: but internationally to the right has gotten so much over 2577 02:47:44,160 --> 02:47:47,240 Speaker 1: the last really five or six years in particular, is 2578 02:47:48,000 --> 02:47:52,840 Speaker 1: cooperation across borders and across like ideological differences. Like there's 2579 02:47:53,080 --> 02:47:57,160 Speaker 1: there has been like tremendous sustained cooperation that has allowed 2580 02:47:57,200 --> 02:48:00,920 Speaker 1: them to amass power, the power that they're early exercising. 2581 02:48:00,959 --> 02:48:02,760 Speaker 1: And the only thing that's going to actually counter that 2582 02:48:03,680 --> 02:48:07,160 Speaker 1: is the cooperation um an organization if a much larger 2583 02:48:07,240 --> 02:48:09,560 Speaker 1: amount of people, Like there's not that many of those folks, 2584 02:48:09,600 --> 02:48:11,920 Speaker 1: that's why they've had to be so organized. There's a 2585 02:48:12,000 --> 02:48:15,680 Speaker 1: lot more of us. But we're also can't stop fighting 2586 02:48:15,720 --> 02:48:18,080 Speaker 1: about ship. So it is it is like we are 2587 02:48:18,120 --> 02:48:21,279 Speaker 1: going to have to evolve in real time to cooperate 2588 02:48:21,360 --> 02:48:23,640 Speaker 1: better with one another and more effectively in order to 2589 02:48:23,879 --> 02:48:32,199 Speaker 1: in order to wrench the wheel back. That's true. M hm. Anyway, 2590 02:48:32,600 --> 02:48:37,000 Speaker 1: that's not lose uh And let's not lose your plug, 2591 02:48:37,040 --> 02:48:41,640 Speaker 1: Dobles Andrew. Yes, you can follow me on Twitter. I 2592 02:48:41,640 --> 02:48:44,840 Speaker 1: don't disclose seem true. I'm finding me on YouTube and 2593 02:48:45,000 --> 02:48:50,160 Speaker 1: truism hell yeah, hell yeah. Well, folks, that's gonna be 2594 02:48:50,240 --> 02:48:52,720 Speaker 1: all for us here today. That It could Happen Here 2595 02:48:53,320 --> 02:49:00,400 Speaker 1: until next time, Go happen somewhere else. Hey, we'll be 2596 02:49:00,440 --> 02:49:03,760 Speaker 1: back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 2597 02:49:03,800 --> 02:49:06,280 Speaker 1: the heat death of the Universe. It could Happen Here 2598 02:49:06,360 --> 02:49:08,960 Speaker 1: is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 2599 02:49:09,000 --> 02:49:11,560 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 2600 02:49:11,640 --> 02:49:13,440 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 2601 02:49:13,520 --> 02:49:16,480 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2602 02:49:16,920 --> 02:49:19,040 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 2603 02:49:19,120 --> 02:49:22,560 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 2604 02:49:22,640 --> 02:49:23,120 Speaker 1: for listening.