WEBVTT - RRR with Ritesh Babu 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.600 On the Bechdecast, the questions asked if movies have women 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.960 in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.879 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.280 Beast start changing it with the Bechdelcast. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.480 Oh it was worth it, thank you? Oh oh oh. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:31.800 It's the big day, Caitlin. 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.120 It's the Big Days, it's the. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:41.760 Big show, and it's Caitlin's birthday episode. We come to 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.360 this place, We come to this podcast to celebrate Caitlyn 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.360 Duranta's birthday, and on their birthday, we of course cover 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.000 one of their favorite movies. But first, this is the 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.160 Bechdel Cast. It is which means that, yeah, what does 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:56.560 it mean? I'm Jamie Loftus. 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.160 It doesn't mean that you're Jamie loftas, it means I'm 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.560 Caitlin Derante, And it means that we talk about movies 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.800 through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:12.040 as a jumping off point. Jamie, what is that? 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:14.480 Sorry, my mouth's full of biscuit. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.800 That's what you are, the baiscuit gobbler, as we've established 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:19.840 five minutes ago. 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:24.319 Yeah, I proudly self identify there's a biscuit. It's complicated. Listeners, 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.280 there's a really gentrified biscuit place that opened down the 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.280 street and I've been I've been gobbling it up. I 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:32.200 don't feel good about it. 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.119 Gobbled those biscuits, Jamie, but. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.759 I do get so hungry. Here's what the Bechdel test is. 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.920 That passed. The Bechdel to us talking about gobbling biscuits, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:41.800 that passes. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:47.560 It's true because biscuits are famously genderless. So the Bechel 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.040 test is a media metric created by queer cartoon as 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.840 Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. Lots of 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.640 versions of this test was originally made as a bit 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:04.040 as a joke for Alice Bechtel's Amazing comic collection Likes 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.520 to watch out for a lot of versions of the test. 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.400 Here's the one we use. We require that therapy two 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.440 characters of a marginalized gender with names speaking to each 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.280 other about something other than a man for more than 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:22.360 two lines of dialogue. And sometimes and I'm just like 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.320 spitballing here. There's movies that could be three hours long 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.880 and not past this test. It's true, but yeah, that's 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:32.960 the one we use. And then we also use a 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.720 more important metric, which is the one that we made 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:37.720 up called the nipple. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.280 Scale, perfect, flawless. 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.040 I don't know what I would want the nipple scale 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.760 to be called if we started the podcast today. I 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:46.079 feel like we could a bunch. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.440 Of disagree if we had to do it all over again. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:51.880 That's the one thing. 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:57.000 No regrets, no regrets that I keep. Well, Happy birthday, Caitlin, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:58.560 it's your birthday, it. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:04.560 Is my birthday, and as such I have selected one 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:08.680 of my a recent favorite, but one of my favorite 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:16.160 movies are R R, which is a Telugu language movie 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.880 from India, so it's Tollywood, not a Bollywood film that 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:26.200 I saw last year. So it was released in March 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.480 twenty twenty two. It had a release in the US 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.280 and kind of by word of mouth, it grew in popularity. 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.360 I saw it in July or maybe June or July 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.480 of twenty twenty two. A friend of mine was like, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:45.840 what you haven't seen rr You'd love it? So I 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:46.520 went to the theater. 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:48.720 I mean, it is a ramp. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:54.160 It is it is a romp. Yeah, romp. 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:55.240 It's a round ron ramp. 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.120 And I was in not a super full theater because 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:00.680 it was just sort of like a regae the screening, 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.080 but it was a rowdy crowd. The best way to 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.760 experience this movie is in a theater with a crowd 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.880 who is cheering and clapping. And that's how I saw 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.920 it the first time. And then I've since seen it 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.480 six times in theaters total. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.160 Often in Q and A settings, right, yeah, the. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.680 Director with the director in like huge theaters, you know. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.880 I think the biggest one was a like a fifteen 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.919 hundred seat theater in downtown Los Angeles. I saw it 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.440 at the Chinese Theater a few months before that. 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.880 We saw it on the West Side at some point. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.280 Yeah, we saw it in Santa Monica. 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.080 Because Caitlin did. And I enjoyed the movie. But you 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.440 dragged every single person in your expanded universe to this movie, 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:49.760 to a screening at one point or another's, and it's 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.000 not to a screening, then to your personal home where yes, 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.760 it is true, and Sammy would show it you were 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.440 you were working full time, unpaid You're in a full time, 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.200 unpaid intern for the movie. R r R. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.680 This movie really spoke to me because and we'll talk 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:11.440 about its many issues later on, but there's also I 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:13.800 think a lot to love about this movie. I think 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.320 probably most people are at least familiar with it if 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.280 they haven't yet seen it. It is on Netflix. The 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.600 version on Netflix is the Hindi dub, so it's not 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.440 in its original language. And then it won a Golden 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.080 Globe and an Oscar for Best Original Song. Yeah, so 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.400 I think it's like on people's radars for the most part. 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.520 If you're if I think even if you're like a 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.599 casual movie fan, this has probably come across your desk 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.960 at some point, right, But yeah, it did feel like 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.440 kind of a rare And we talk about this with 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:49.000 our guests in a bit, and I guess we're formatting 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.000 our episode a little bit different today where most of 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.120 the discussion will be with Caitlin and myself and we 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.360 have an amazing guest coming in later to give us 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.520 more historical context. And the reason I say that is 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:03.080 because there are very few Indian movies that cross over 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.360 into the West in the way our r R has right. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.560 And I think honestly, like in preparing for this episode 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.880 and watching this movie through the Bechdel test lens and 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.159 Rebctel cast lens, rather it's just recurring. I mean, it's 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.599 I know so little about Indian film, and yeah, I mean, 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.560 I don't know it. It made me, It made me think, 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.040 made me think. And also RR is such a fun movie, 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.760 and if you don't know any historical context for it, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.680 maybe watch it once without knowing and then listen to 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.240 the second half of the episode and then go back 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.479 and watch it again and watch responsibly. But it was 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:47.080 really like because you insisted making it so like I 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.600 was under duress, but I did. It was a it 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.880 was a car load of Bechdel cast luminaries because it 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.719 was you and me went and we're the hosts of 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:57.120 the show. 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.120 It's true, there's no doubt about it. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.760 There's never been any others. And then also guest Sammy 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:08.120 Junio and Catherine Leon were also with us. Katherine and 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.520 I had not seen it before you and Sammy had 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.600 seen it maybe fifty billion times at that point. 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:13.920 Yeah, that sounds right. 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.560 And so it was exciting, I mean, like watching people 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.680 react to the movie in real time, and like, I mean, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.520 it was a bit scary at times, sure, but you know, 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.040 it was very we come to this place vibes. I 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:27.720 really liked it. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.320 It's a movie that feels like a movie. 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.440 Yes, I truly. I'd never seen a I mean, I'd 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.440 seen Indian movies before, but never like a big epic 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.920 the way that this is. And it's I think it's 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.440 kind of interesting for Western audiences because we're just like 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.040 not used to it to have a movie that changes 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:49.520 genres several times when like it's almost it's like a 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.560 really pleasant creative jump scare where you're like, oh, I 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.880 guess you could just start singing too, like And I 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.920 know that that is like pretty commonplace in a lot 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.120 of Indian movies. And also there's such a huge diverse 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.760 film community because there's so many languages, there's all of 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.600 these different industries. But I know in the East that 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:11.200 that is a more common sort of film filmic language. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.400 But for a crowd full of people in Santa Monica, 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.960 they're like, oh my god, it's a rom com Oh 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.880 my god, it's an action movie. Oh my god, it's. 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:20.800 Like buddy comedy. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:26.040 Yeah, it's like there's so much happening. I looked up 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.000 the budget for this movie. What would you guess the 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.120 budget for this movie was. 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:31.240 I don't have to guess, I already know. 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:36.680 Oh shit, Well, it's the highest budget movie I believe 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:38.160 ever made in India. 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.520 I think that's true, Yes, but it made. 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.920 Me laugh at Hollywood movies because there there can be 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.160 such slops where it's like the last Star Wars movie 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.079 costs like two hundred and seventy five million dollars, is 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.640 like running on absolute fumes. Babu Frick truly the only 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.440 shock of life that exists in that movie. Meanwhile, this 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.320 movie is on all cylinders whole fucking time, and it 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.680 was seventy two million dollars. Yeah, USD. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.640 It really makes you wonder what Hollywood is spending money 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.240 on with these wildly inflated budgets. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:17.480 I hope they paid Babu Freak one hundred million the poppit. 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:25.720 Yeah, and it's the third highest grossing Indian film worldwide 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:30.640 and the second highest grossing Telugu film worldwide, the highest 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:36.000 grossing one being another of this director's movies, Bahu Bali. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.600 Oh shoot. I don't know if it's part one or 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.560 two because there's like the beginning and then the conclusion. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:47.000 All this to say that this is a huge movie globally, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.320 Like you said, Jamie, one of the few movies from 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.040 India that crossed over and had and has like a 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.280 huge following in audience in the US. It also has 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:02.520 a huge following in Japan. And I'm kind of speculating here, 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.320 but I think something that might account for that is 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.320 that and I'm not super familiar with a lot of anime, 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.280 but everyone I know who does know a lot about 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.200 anime and who has also seen RRR, They're like, yeah, 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.319 RRR is just an anime feel like a live action anime. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.240 Oh interesting, So I think that might account for at 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.960 least partly why it was so successful in Japan. And yeah, 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:28.920 so it's like this global phenomenon. 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.080 I mean, this is the kind of movie where it's 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:36.000 like there's fucking something for truly everyone. It's like, if 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.840 you're not loving this movie, just like, wait twenty minutes, 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.040 like and yeah, probably something totally different that you might 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.760 like a lot better will probably be happening at that point. 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.760 It's pretty like, it's pretty amazing. I really hope that. 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.520 I mean I know that there are there are well, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.200 actually I don't, I don't know. I don't know what. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.120 I don't know, but I am very pro and now 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.520 we're doing this, but it still feels like it's all 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.920 cohesive enough. There are sometimes where we were like hmm, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.640 that guy just changed rather quickly. They're like, I think 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.400 right there. I do think that there is a moment 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.320 in them. And this isn't even a criticism, but there's 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.600 a moment in the movie where Beam goes from being 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:19.320 such a dufus to like the most bloodthirsty man in 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.680 the world. He has a good half hour of just 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.480 full on dufus and then he's like, actually, now I'm 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.920 hard as fuck for the rest of the movie, and you're. 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.800 Like, yeah, all right. His love for Jenny made him doofy. 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.120 He's kind of like Hillary duffing a little bit. I not, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.560 He's kind of just like, oh, like, you know, yeah. 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:42.800 Then he's like, wait a minute, I remember the mission 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.200 that I'm on I have to save a little girl, 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.920 and then yeah, he does that. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.240 I mean, I would love to see Hillary Duff on 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.760 a rescue mission movie. It's just not what. It's just 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.120 not yet. At the time of this recording, Hillary Duff 0:11:56.160 --> 0:12:00.440 has not headlined a blockbuster action franchise. But but never 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:00.880 say never. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.319 Well, that's because we have yet to write it. 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:09.160 She uh, I mean, my unproblematic queen. I think hard 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.200 to say. I think, as far as we know, haven't 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:12.960 heard a bad word about her. I just know she's 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.800 like married a lot of hockey players, which I think 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.440 is just like a fun habit. 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:20.240 Good for her. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:21.920 It's not the sort of thing you would think would 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:23.880 happen more than once anyway. True. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:30.120 Okay, so let's take a quick break and then I'm 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:31.200 back and do the recap. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:32.160 Yeah, let's do it. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:42.240 Okay, we'll be right back, and we are back a 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.680 little context before I even begin the recap. So this 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:52.720 movie is loosely based on two Indian freedom fighters who 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:57.360 I don't think ever collaborated in real life. But basically 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.560 this movie like re envisions history and is like what 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.959 if they did collaborate and what if they were best friends? 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.320 And also is a very it's funny. I don't again, 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.160 I don't think I've ever seen a movie framed this 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.200 way precisely where there is a lot of and we 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.600 talk about this a little bit with our guest as well, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.720 but there's a lot at the beginning of like, hey, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:24.679 this is these are real people, but the story is 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.440 not real. So like you cannot get upset and you 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.679 can't be mad, and you can't see me and you 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.439 can't yell at me because it's not it's not real. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.280 It's made I made it up. It's real people, but 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.120 I made it up, right, Okay, And you're like it 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.800 almost like I don't know not to keep I just 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.960 love to compare things because I'm judgmental, but it almost 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.400 reminded me. But this like doesn't happen in inglorious bastards, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.760 but it almost feels like an inglorious bastard's level of like, 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.720 for sure none of this shit happened. Yeah, I didn't. 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.040 I honestly didn't look in to see if these two 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:03.200 people had ever collaborated and Raju, but I also know 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.120 that it's like a very like overly simplistic, almost like 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:12.160 a mythic view of these figures versus being super based 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:16.120 in their actual politics or critical of any of their 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:20.760 political legacies, which we'll talk about later in the episode. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.560 But yeah, it's like I was honestly surprised to see 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.160 that they were using actual historical figures for this because 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.960 it feels so like mythic. 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.360 I don't know, right, Yeah, because it takes again these 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:40.720 two real life Indian revolutionaries Aluri Sita Rama Raju and 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.920 comoram Beim and envisions them as superheroes. 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:49.360 Basically, right so, and especially after doing some research and 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.760 speaking with our guest, this movie is also very centered 0:14:53.880 --> 0:15:00.000 on Hindu figures and is pretty exclusionary of Muslim figures, 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.680 which is something that we talk about in our interview 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.840 because I think that a lot of Westerners who just 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.440 like who went to this movie and got fucking pumped, like, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.280 we don't all have that context. So if you don't 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.000 have that context, don't feel bad. 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.520 But you know, I certainly didn't the first time I 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.920 watched it, and had to do a lot of my 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.440 own just sort of research and digging to learn about 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.200 just a lot of things regarding Indian history, the current 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:33.080 political climate of India, and how this movie fits into 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.320 all of that. And that's something, yeah, we'll get into. 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:40.400 Later, yet another way that the American schooling system failed us. 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.480 I don't think I learned anything about India in school 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.040 for the most part, honestly, sight of British colonization that's 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:49.560 all I knew about. 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.400 I mean, when I was a kid, my major frame 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:57.320 of reference for India and Indian culture came from watching movies, 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.680 and many of those movies, yeah, were horribly racists, such 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.640 as Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, or they 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.840 were told from a colonizer's perspective, like I watched The 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.600 Little Princess a lot, and. 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.000 Right, yeah, I mean, we're we're exposed to so much 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.560 colonizer perspective in media. And then also even with I 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.040 feel like I keep foreshadowing this interview because this is 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.760 in our normal format, right, but also with r r R, 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.440 it's like r R is very anti colonial and anti 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.720 imperial on its face, but also excludes a lot of 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:38.720 contexts that it's like not quite as radical as it appears. 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.560 And so it's so I don't know, I think we've 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:46.320 been we also listeners, you'll know that we recently covered 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.760 The Woman King, and so we've just been like covering 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.120 a lot of like loosely historical epics recently that are 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:57.360 obviously going to influence people's views of the time and 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.800 the people that are being discussed in the movie. I mean, 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.480 and even for us watching r R for the first 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.680 time last year, it gave us kind of a skewed 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.560 view of of I mean a lot of different issues, 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.840 and so I just I don't know, I don't know 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.159 what to say. I just it's it's a very tricky 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.840 problem because it's like it shouldn't be the job of 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:23.320 movies to educate you. But it's also like willfully kind 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.720 of ignorant to say like, well, I don't know, I 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.000 don't I'm I'm just I'm just a creative goofy goof 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.000 messing around, and you're. 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:33.960 Like, well, but but you also kind of have a 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.639 responsibility to represent things responsibly. 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.080 Right, And it doesn't mean that every movie has to 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.560 be a documentary like but I don't know, uh, complicated, 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.320 ongoing discussion. I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.040 it and the changes will be permanent. 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.760 Yeah, and we will fix society because of it. 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:57.320 Surely, this isn't an unknowable question anyways, So let's talk. Okay, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.280 So for this first chunk we are going to be 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.000 talking about the movie and the story, and then we 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.720 will return to the historical context because otherwise my brain 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:05.480 will explode. 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.359 Yes, so here's the recap. The movie is very long. 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.200 It's not as long as Titanic, No, it's ten minutes shorter. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.720 But they and at the theater, they give you a 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.200 they give you an intermission, which I think is so fun. 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.840 I love that. Yes, oh felt good. 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.399 So the movie is very long, and I'm going to 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:31.199 leave out some details and characters, but this is the 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.639 gist of it. We open on a village in the 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.760 Adela bad forest in India. It's the nineteen twenties. The 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:44.360 GND people who live in the village are playing reluctant 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:50.639 host to Governor Scott and his wife, Lady Buxton, whose. 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:51.720 Name is Kathy Too. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:52.320 Yeah. 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:56.320 I was like, wow, I'm sensitive to Kathy slander, but 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.920 this Kathy is the worst Kathy in the world. 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.879 She's really bad. So Governor Scott makes it seem like 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:06.440 his last name is Scott, but it's Scott Buxton, so 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.960 Scott is his first name. So that would be if 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.440 people were like, oh, Governor Jamie, that's. 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.240 So her president Joe, Yeah what, But. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.040 Everyone calls him Governor Scott, so that's great his name. 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:25.840 So they are British imperialist colonizers. A young girl, Malay, 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.879 is painting skin art on Lady Buxton. She's singing a 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.840 song and Lady Buxton decides that she wants to keep Malay, 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.320 so they abduct her from the village. Her mother is 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.280 obviously crying and devastated. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:45.320 That first, I mean, yeah, it's absolutely brutal. She's kidnapped, 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.160 She's kidnapped right in front of her, and then her mom. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.840 I thought the first time I saw the movie that 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.960 her mother was killed, but fortunately she's not killed, but 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.720 she was her I mean a yeah. In the opening sequence, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.080 there is a young girl who is abducted and another 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.520 woman who is beat brutally. Yes, so right out the gate, 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.200 it's very intense. Also, I just wanted to shout out 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.280 the young actor who plays Molly's name is Twinkle Sharma, 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.880 which is my favorite name I've ever heard. Love that 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.600 like Twinkle. I love it. I love it, I love her. 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.000 Will continue to follow this young star's career, We. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:25.840 Sure will, so we see this devastating opening sequence. Then 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.720 we cut to the outskirts of Delhi, where we meet 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:34.960 Rama Raju played by Ramcharan, a police officer working for 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:39.639 the British government who is tasked with arresting a protester. 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.280 We then see a long sequence of him beating his 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.960 way through a crowd of hundreds of protesters and eventually 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:49.680 reaching and arresting the guy. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:56.760 And it's like, it is, it is why, it's it's wild, 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.800 it is really you. It's hard to describe how many 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:02.800 things happen, because so many things happen. 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.879 Yeah, if we didn't make this clear yet, this movie 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.680 is like everything is dialed up to an eleven. Yes, 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:16.800 the action sequences, the there's also almost constant music happening 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:17.320 and like. 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:18.639 And it's big music. 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:20.359 Yeah, big epic music. 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.280 As musicians, the music big. 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:27.359 The music is big. We are scholars. It's one of 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.480 my favorite scores of all time. It's such a beautiful 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.560 arrangement of music. But yeah, everything is just like cranked 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.719 all the way up in this movie. There's no subtlety whatsoever. 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:41.080 Everything is just like. 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.840 There's no boom boom boom, there's no rest. So if 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.280 something sounds really intense. 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:47.560 It is. That's what it's like. 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:52.000 But yeah, huge, huge fight scene to establish the strength 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:56.840 and will of ram Right and also that he is 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.000 working for the British at the beginning of the movie. 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.440 Yes, and we will come to understand Rom's particular motivation 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.199 for being an officer later on. And even though he 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:13.119 like accomplishes this like Banana's feat of like beating his 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.679 way through this crowd and arresting this person, he is 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:22.480 still not promoted to special officer, which upsets him so 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.639 much that he punches a hole in a punching bag. Oh, 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.639 because he really wants to be special Officer for again, 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:35.480 reasons we will understand later. Then we see a meeting 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:41.119 where this guy Edward, who is Governor Scott's right hand man. 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:46.440 He is being advised to return Malay, the girl who 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.120 was taken from the village, because there is a man 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:55.399 from her tribe who will stop at nothing to hunt 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:58.040 down her captors and find her. 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.000 Oh. And then there's a really thrilling intro shot unlike 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:03.200 anything you've ever seen. 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:04.720 Just oh. 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:07.960 Shot, it's really good. 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.800 Yes, we meet camaraan Beam played by Nti rama Ro 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:18.440 Junior aka NTR Junior, while he's chasing wolves and tigers 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.600 in the jungle to capture them for reasons that will 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:26.119 also become clear later. And then Beam heads to Delhi 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.879 where he and his brother Lachu and a couple of 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.200 their friends are trying to figure out how to get 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:37.000 into the palace to rescue Maley. They notice this woman Jenny, 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.800 who lives in the palace, and she seems nice. 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:46.320 So Jenny's whole thing is every I mean. And again 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:51.040 it's like part of this really broad storytelling of like 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.600 she is the one British nice she's the nice colonizer. 0:23:55.680 --> 0:24:02.040 Yeah you like her? Okay, I guess no, we like her. 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.639 She's Governor Scott's niece. But sometimes she's like, hey stop that. 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:07.080 Yeah. 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:11.280 That's literally the extent of her allyship is hey cut 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.040 that out, don't do it. Yeah, that's how we meet her. 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:15.119 She's saying, hey, cut that out. 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:15.480 Yeah. 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:20.399 When an officer is beating a man for no reason, 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:21.760 she says, hey cut that out. 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:25.399 Yes, And then so Beam is like a woga who's that. 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.679 She's pretty and she's nice, and they figure that if 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:32.639 they can befriend her, she could be their ticket into 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:38.600 the palace. Meanwhile, Edward and Lady Buxton are like, hm, 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:41.280 I guess we should be worried about this guy who 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:45.200 is going to come for the girl, but we also 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:47.840 know nothing about him, his name, what he looks like, 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:52.680 anything like that. But whoever is able to capture this 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:57.439 man will be promoted to special officer. So Rom is like, 0:24:58.440 --> 0:25:02.080 I'll do it. I want to be special officer. So 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:06.360 he and his uncle figure that this guy will probably 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:11.200 be going to revolutionary meetings, So they go to one 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:16.120 such meeting, and sure enough they meet Beam's brother Lachu, 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.240 and so Rom and his uncle pretend to be Lachu's ally, 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:24.480 but Lachu figures out that Rom is an undercover police officer, 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:29.640 so he runs. There's a chase and Lachu escapes into 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:35.800 a huge crowd nearby. A train is like leaking oil everywhere. 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.480 It explodes and derails. 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:43.040 And there's a little boy in the middle of the waters. 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:47.920 It's like the steaks are always like a million guy high. 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:52.680 This little kid is going to explode if Rom and 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.080 Beam don't become friends right now, right. 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:59.120 So what happens is there's this little boy who's about 0:25:59.160 --> 0:26:03.240 to die. No one seems to want to risk their 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:07.479 life to save him, except for Beam and Rom. So 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:11.399 they team up, not realizing that the other one is 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:14.919 their enemy. They save the boy, and this is the 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.159 beginning of them becoming best friends, because we get this 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:20.800 montage of something. 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:23.960 That's usually reserved for like falling in love, like falling 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:27.160 in love, you know, but it's just like them having 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:31.280 a fun time together. They're eating, they're going on little 0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:32.080 day trips. 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:37.040 Oh, they're riding horses and motorcycles. Oh they're frolicking through field. 0:26:37.680 --> 0:26:39.399 Oh they're playing tug of war. 0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:40.400 Pretty nice. Oh. 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:45.520 Beam is doing squats with Rom on his shoulders. Also, 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:48.719 while this is happening, there's a song playing called Dosti 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:53.199 and the lyrics are like, Wow, it's pretty wild that 0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:56.800 these two guys have become friends and that they don't 0:26:56.840 --> 0:27:00.480 know that they're actually enemies. This is probably gonna end 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.520 in bloodshed and betrayal. Huh. 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:11.040 And we're like, hold on, what I'm kidding? I do 0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:14.040 I do love and I know that this isn't this happened, 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:18.359 but it's just like the exposition montage was really delivering 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:19.239 for me. I loved it. 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:22.760 Yeah, it's like a Greek chorus kind of thing. Because 0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:26.600 also this movie is like a Greek tragedy. It's just 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:34.000 it's everything. So one day Ram helps Beam meet Jenny. 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:38.399 We will talk about this meet cute later. There's no time. 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:42.040 It's egregious. Yeah, this movie is a lot of things, 0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:45.080 particularly interested in women. Nope, it is not. 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:49.200 But basically the movie becomes a rom com for a while. 0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:50.160 And a half hour. 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:54.119 So yeah, Beam meets Jenny and spends the afternoon with her, 0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:57.320 and even though they don't speak the same language, they 0:27:57.520 --> 0:27:59.880 hit it off and she invites him to an upc 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:03.879 party So Beam and rom get all dressed up and 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:06.879 go to this big fancy party in a scene that 0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:11.439 was giving me because there are some Titanic parallels. But 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:14.119 there's a scene where like Rom is giving Beam a 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:16.640 little makeover and like putting him in a suit because 0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:18.160 he's like, what are you gonna wear to the party? 0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:20.320 And Beam is like this and he's like, no, you 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.159 have to wear a suit. And it's very much like 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:25.000 Molly Brown being like Jack, what are you gonna wear 0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:25.919 to dinner? 0:28:25.960 --> 0:28:29.919 And you shine up like a new penny y. Yeah, 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:31.679 that was that was very sweet. And then they got 0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:32.840 to the party and they look great. 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:33.840 Oh, they look so great. 0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:37.560 And now they're at the big Colonizer party and yeah, 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:39.520 we're about to have a dance off. This is the 0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:41.200 iconic Oscar winning song. 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:45.280 Yes, because there's this British guy at the party who's 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:48.200 super racist and he's like, you don't know anything about 0:28:48.320 --> 0:28:52.080 art or finesse or dance, and they're like, have you 0:28:52.120 --> 0:28:54.680 ever heard of natu? And then they do the na 0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:58.479 to na to song and dance and they win an 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:03.320 Oscar about it, or rather, mm Kiravani does because he's 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.720 the one who composed the music. For Flim. 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:11.880 That scene is so just exciting, it's so good and 0:29:11.920 --> 0:29:14.360 also especially like I don't know seeing it for the 0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:17.880 first time, you don't see it coming, like you're like, oh, 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:20.440 this is going to be like a rom com, comedy 0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:23.840 of manners, more stuff with like Beam and Jenny. But 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:27.240 then it's like, no, it's a huge dance number. It's 0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:32.560 it's gigantic. It's just like so terrible. It's my favorite scene, 0:29:32.600 --> 0:29:35.200 no contest. It rocks the best. 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:38.960 Jenny also loves it and she's like, wow, Beam, it 0:29:39.080 --> 0:29:41.640 was so cool when you danced. Do you want to 0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:45.160 come to the palace with me? So he goes to 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:49.560 the palace where he finds Molly and she's locked up 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:54.080 behind bars. She's treated as a prisoner and Beam is like, 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:56.640 I can't rescue you now, but don't worry, I'll come 0:29:56.680 --> 0:30:00.760 back for you. So he and his friends plan their 0:30:00.960 --> 0:30:06.160 siege of the palace, but oh no, Ram has captured 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:11.280 Lachu and he's like, where's your brother, still not realizing 0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:14.080 that the man who Ram is looking for is his 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:19.360 own best friend Beam. Then we cut to Ram's home 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:25.440 village where we meet his lady love Cita, and all 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:28.480 of the people are like when is rom coming back? 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:32.480 He's been gone for years and she's a flaw. He's 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:35.719 a flop and he doesn't even remember you. And she's like, 0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:37.160 I don't know. 0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:41.800 But Cita is like she's like Christ like in her 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:47.520 faith and patience in her fiance. And I mean, I know, 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.600 like everyone in this movie is a huge star, but 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:53.040 I think she in particular. I want to make sure 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:56.200 that I'm saying her name right Alia Bot. She's like 0:30:56.440 --> 0:31:00.640 a huge, huge star, and I feel like she gets 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:04.480 like the star reveal shot when she's because you turn 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:07.920 around and then there's like a pause for applause and 0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:10.160 she's great. I just I would just wish that we 0:31:10.200 --> 0:31:13.160 had more. I mean, I don't know, I don't know. 0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:19.800 I just I was like, Wow, she's so virtuous, awesome. 0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:25.240 Yeah, she's really just sort of passively waiting around for 0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:26.680 her fiance. 0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:29.760 Yeah. I was like, Wow. If I was Cita, I 0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:33.800 would be getting a nosebleed fucking daily, being like probably 0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:36.360 like walking around being like he's probably dead, Like. 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:40.600 I'm gonna move on and kiss someone else. Oh god, 0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:41.600 that's what that would be me. 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:44.160 That's see, we're different. I would be walking around having 0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:45.320 a panic attack. 0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:47.840 But she'd be like, oh, you've been gone for three days, 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:51.040 Well it's time to move on find another. 0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:53.960 Lover, I feel like, but she's doing neither of those things. 0:31:54.000 --> 0:31:57.840 She's just like, no, I believe everything is great because 0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.080 he's the greatest and and I'd be like, he's probably 0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:07.280 cheating on me. Wow, I'm stuck back here in Floptown there. 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:13.680 So back in the city, Lachu throws a poisonous snake 0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:16.600 onto Rom and he gets bitten, and so Rom is 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.280 like stumbling around and dying. Beam finds him and saves 0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:24.120 his life and then reveals his true identity to Rom, 0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:28.560 and Rom is still like actively dying, so he can't 0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:30.760 do anything about it. But he's like, oh my god, 0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:33.720 my best friend is the guy who I've been hunting 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.080 down this whole time. What do I do? And then 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:39.360 he recovers because Beam has saved him, and he's punching 0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:43.480 his punching bag some more and he's upset. Then it's 0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:47.160 the night of this big celebration to honor Governor Scott, 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:51.280 which is when Beam and his friends unleash an attack 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:54.960 so they can rescue Malay. They crash into the party 0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:59.360 and let a bunch of animals loose, including that tiger 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.240 from the beginning. There's just like utter chaos as all 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:04.920 these animals are running around. 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:10.680 It is another I was like, because we like Hollywood 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:15.200 movies have so many badly cgied animals, these are well 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:16.560 cgied animals. 0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:20.200 They look good. They look pretty good. I would say 0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:21.320 it's not the best I've seen. 0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:24.960 I mean, no, cgi animal looks amazing, but like it's 0:33:24.960 --> 0:33:30.040 certainly for Paddington, it's I don't know, we can't get 0:33:30.040 --> 0:33:32.720 into this today. I think Paddington's looks a little scary sometimes, 0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:37.560 but but I mean it's certainly doing don'nuts around like 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:40.680 the Lion King reboot and shit like that. But you're like, oh, 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:41.720 like you can't look at. 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:46.560 It horrifying looking so all this chaos is happening. But 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:50.880 before Beam can reach Malay Rom shows up to arrest him, 0:33:51.280 --> 0:33:54.360 and Beam is like, what the fuck, you're a cop, 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:58.120 you're my enemy, And then they fight each other for 0:33:58.160 --> 0:34:01.840 a long time. They're beating each other up, and then 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:06.080 it culminates in Beam being captured, which is where we 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:12.759 get the intermission or the interval. Then Ram gets promoted 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:16.560 to special officer because he captured Beam, just like he 0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:21.839 always wanted, And then we see a flashback with Ram's backstory. So, 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:25.480 when Ram was a child, his father was training their 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:29.520 whole village to fight back against the British, but they 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:33.560 don't have real weapons. So the reason that Ram wanted 0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:36.360 to be a special officer so badly is that it 0:34:36.400 --> 0:34:39.479 would give him access to a lot of guns, which 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:44.120 he would basically steal and distribute among his village. And 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:46.319 he had made this promise to his father that he 0:34:46.360 --> 0:34:49.760 would supply everyone in the village with a gun. Because 0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:53.320 one day, while Ram is still a child, the British 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:58.359 Army raids their village and kills Ram's whole family. So 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:01.799 he sees like his mother and his little brother and 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:03.279 his father killed in front of him. 0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:07.960 It's horrible and it's also very mythic in the way 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:09.360 it's presented as. 0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:14.239 Well, for sure. Yeah. Back to the present, Rom is 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:18.160 feeling very conflicted because he wants to help his people 0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:22.480 and his village, but he realizes he's hurting people along 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:26.440 the way, including his new best friend. Then there's a 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:32.240 scene where Rom has to flog Beam publicly, and Governor 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:35.840 Scott makes everyone come to watch because he wants to 0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:41.400 make an example of Beam, and during this beating, Beam 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:46.160 sings a song that empowers the crowd to riot and 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:52.160 revolt against all the British soldiers, after which Rom realizes 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:56.239 he needs to help Beam escape, especially after Beam is 0:35:56.280 --> 0:36:00.440 sentenced to death by hanging. So Rom orchestrates this rescue 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:04.200 mission for Beam and Malay and they successfully get away. 0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:08.040 Though Beam doesn't know that Ram helped him, he still 0:36:08.040 --> 0:36:11.359 thinks that Ram is his enemy. So then Beam and 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:15.200 Malay go into hiding because the entire British military is 0:36:15.200 --> 0:36:18.400 out looking for them, and they happen to cross paths 0:36:18.480 --> 0:36:25.280 with Sita, Ram's lady Love, who tells Beam about Ram's 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:28.359 grand plan to become a special officer so that he 0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:32.080 can supply his village with weapons so they can revolt 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:36.040 against British colonialism, but that he kind of lost his 0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:39.359 way and betrayed his best friend, but then he got 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:42.160 caught and now he's going to be executed, and Baim 0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:45.560 is like, damn okay, he was helping me. I have 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:50.560 to go save him. So Bam goes to the barracks 0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:55.160 where Ram is being held prisoner breaks him out. There's 0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:59.359 another like extended fight sequence where they're fighting their way 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:04.360 through the British soldiers with Ram on Beam's shoulders because 0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:08.000 his legs were badly beaten. They escape the barracks and 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:11.360 go into the woods. More British soldiers come. There's another 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:15.839 long fight sequence where Rom and Beam kill all of them. 0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:20.720 Beam is throwing a motorcycle around, Ram is firing arrows 0:37:20.760 --> 0:37:22.239 with grenades attached to them. 0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:24.920 Yeah, and at this point, as we'll talk about in 0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:29.720 a bit, Ram looks like the mythic way that Ram 0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:33.080 is presented and like they're start or no, this is 0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:34.880 a little bit before that happens, right. 0:37:35.360 --> 0:37:39.160 So after they escape the barracks, Beam yes, because he 0:37:39.239 --> 0:37:44.359 knows medicine, he treats Ram's wounds. And then there's like 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:49.160 these like orange flags nearby this place of warship. So 0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:52.120 he like takes the flags and the bow and arrow 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:57.520 from this like Rama god statue and then basically styles 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:01.759 Ram to look like this and do God. And then 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:05.440 they fight the people in the woods, and then they 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:08.480 are like, all right, bitch, it's time to kill Scott. 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:11.600 So they head to Governor Scott's palace. They steal a 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:15.440 bunch of guns for Rom's village. They destroy the palace 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:19.240 and kill Lady Buxton and Governor Scott. 0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:22.640 And they kill And it's a great plant and payoff 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:24.719 moment when they kill Governor Scott, because there was this 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:28.839 whole long, evil speech that he seems to make all the. 0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:32.320 Time, all the time about the value of a bullet. 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:35.360 Yes, which you can imagine. I thought that that was 0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:38.880 kind of a fun touch of like most fucking evil 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:43.680 colonial blowhards like that have like one speech they know 0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:47.200 how to give, but then they're always like hot, like god. 0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:49.279 So anyways, they give the speech to him and then 0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:51.960 they fucking yeah kill him. Boing boying. 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:53.600 It's very cathartic. 0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:57.239 It is very very exciting, and if you have no 0:38:57.360 --> 0:38:59.560 context for the rest of the movie, you're like, wow, 0:38:59.680 --> 0:39:03.560 this is a radical movie, right, and then you read 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:05.920 a book and then you're like, oh, oh wait, no 0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:08.640 it's not. But it's still a good moment. It's a 0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:10.240 good moment, yes, indeed. 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:15.160 So then, having defeated the villain, Beam and Rom return home. 0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:19.240 Rom is reunited with Tita, Jenny is there for some reason, 0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:23.440 Malay is returned to her mother, and the movie ends 0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:27.240 with a big song and dance number that pays tribute 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:30.719 to a bunch of Indian Revolutionaries, although. 0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:36.160 Specifics there's a lot of omissions. Yes, and the director 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:39.960 as as Russian movie, is in the conclusion like he 0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:42.960 is in the final scene, and so it's like this 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:46.680 fourth wall break that is sort of like stating with 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:50.479 the thesis of the movie was, which is I guess 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:53.120 when you think about it, a little bit pretty nationalistic. 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:57.360 And then it's like, not only is that there's like 0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:00.799 the big thesis song, but also the director of the 0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:05.800 movie like joins in which again I wouldn't like, I 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:09.799 wouldn't hate that if Martin Scorsese started doing that. At 0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:13.400 the end he comes out, he's like, what'd you think, Yeah, awesome. 0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:17.439 And then we'd be like, yes, clap, clap, cheer, cheer, 0:40:18.560 --> 0:40:19.120 I love it. 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:22.520 It's like those awkward I feel like it's only happened 0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:24.520 since movie theaters have been opened, but every once in 0:40:24.560 --> 0:40:26.719 a while you'll go see a movie and then it's 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:29.960 just like Margot Robbie being like, Hi, thanks for coming 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:34.000 to Babylon at the movie theater. Enjoy the movie, and 0:40:34.040 --> 0:40:37.200 you're like, what the fuck was that? I do? Do that? 0:40:37.440 --> 0:40:42.640 Just yeah, So it's like we know, I mean in 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:46.040 the same way that why is Nicole Kidman doing an 0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:50.160 advertisement for the theater that you're already in and about 0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:50.719 to see. 0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:51.120 For the culture. 0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:54.720 It's for the culture, and we come to this place 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:56.200 for that culture. 0:40:56.280 --> 0:40:59.200 But those little flips that are like barely produced and 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:01.120 clearly in the middle of a press junk at day 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:03.000 and they look like they want to die. I'm like, 0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:06.280 this is not getting me excited for the movie. I forget. 0:41:06.320 --> 0:41:09.280 There was like a director too that was like welcome 0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:12.239 back to them, and you're like, oh my god, just 0:41:12.320 --> 0:41:14.800 start the movie enough. 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:19.959 Yes, So let's say, well that's our yes, and let's 0:41:20.000 --> 0:41:29.520 take another break and we'll come back to discuss. And 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:34.359 we are back and we are about to include our 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:38.000 segment that we did with our special guest, who will 0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:41.080 introduce in a moment. But we just wanted to kind 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:43.760 of give a little bit more context for the production 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:49.120 of the movie. So it was written and directed by 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:56.160 ss Raja Mouley aka SSR. So screenplay by SSR, Story 0:41:56.239 --> 0:42:01.839 by vj Andre Presad who is sa are his dad dad. 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:03.240 They collaborate a lot. 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:09.160 With Okay, fathers and sons. Yeah, and so SSR look 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:13.759 hot topic these days. He's an Eppo baby, Folks, His 0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:19.200 dad is a very well regarded screenwriter in India who's 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:24.000 been working since the eighties, I believe, and now they 0:42:24.400 --> 0:42:31.920 very often will collaborate together, including on this. So sometimes 0:42:32.040 --> 0:42:36.319 movies are about fathers and sons, including this one. Other 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:39.120 times movies are made by fathers and sons. 0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:41.799 And often they are made for fathers and sons. 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:45.360 Those are kind of those tend to be who movies 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:48.840 are made for. So you know, good for you guys, 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:55.800 you fuckos. But no, very very famous, not just director, 0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:58.600 but from a famous movie family. 0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:04.319 Yes, the two main stars, Ramcharan and Antir Junior are 0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:07.680 also from like acting dynasties. 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:12.799 Yes, well, as is the actor who plays Sita. Right, Like, 0:43:12.840 --> 0:43:17.800 there's so much I mean, it's this is just entertainment 0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:22.600 in general. But and how power works, right but yeah, 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:25.360 we just because we talk about it in the guest segment. 0:43:25.400 --> 0:43:29.160 As if you already know who made the movie, what 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:31.600 you need to know is that S. S. Roja Movie 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.680 is a very successful film director who collaborates frequently with 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:39.400 his father. His politics. He doesn't like to talk about politics, 0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:45.719 which usually means something and and he makes these I mean, 0:43:45.800 --> 0:43:47.839 especially in this phase of his career. It seems like 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:52.560 he makes big, big blockbuster movies for sure. 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:58.920 And with that, let's bring on our guest, who is 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:04.000 a writer critic. You've seen their byelines in Vox, Panel 0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:08.040 by Panel, Polygon, among others, and they were the author 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:12.080 of a particular piece in Vox that we found and 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:15.479 really loved entitled R R R is an incredible action 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:21.280 movie with seriously troubling politics. It's reveish Babu. Hello, Hello, Hello, 0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:23.320 thank you so much for being here. 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:25.160 Happy to be here, Thank you for having me. 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:28.520 Oh, it's our pleasure, so pleasure. 0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:31.680 Oh sorry, okay, I feel like I'm contributing. 0:44:32.480 --> 0:44:38.680 Yes, tell us, you're just kind of general thoughts on 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:43.160 the film? Are are are? What's your relationship with it? 0:44:43.560 --> 0:44:46.480 Yeah? So the film is, you know, the latest entry 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:50.960 by the filmmaker South Indian filmmaker from Natalia wood industry, 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:52.880 which is, you know, the Deli wood language speaking cinema 0:44:52.960 --> 0:44:56.720 industry of India. It's the latest film by the biggest 0:44:56.760 --> 0:45:00.000 filmmaker of that industry who is now also India's film naker. 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:03.680 And I grew up with his films, like I think 0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:07.040 I remember watching his first movie as a kid, and 0:45:07.320 --> 0:45:09.920 I've kind of always known his films like I watched 0:45:09.960 --> 0:45:11.879 everyone as it came out because like my father would 0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:14.080 make me watch them, and so they were like a 0:45:14.200 --> 0:45:17.279 thing that I always pretty much knew. And so it's 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:20.080 been a weird, interesting experience to watch, like the guy 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.200 your dad talks about at your home suddenly become like 0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:26.759 the guy everybody and their mom talks about, you know, globally. 0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:29.840 That it's kind of a weird experience, but it's been interesting. 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:33.239 So this is the latest film he's made, and it's 0:45:33.320 --> 0:45:36.440 kind of like the biggest explosive porsion of what he does, 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:41.360 and my relationship to it is it's complicated, is definitely 0:45:41.400 --> 0:45:43.640 the word I would use, because it's a film that 0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:47.719 is a great, big spectacle that works as a big 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:51.880 action spectacle, but is also reflective of all the flaws 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:56.399 and like the limitations of the filmmaker and the kind 0:45:56.400 --> 0:46:00.120 of space that remoiches from end. So there's a weird 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:03.080 sit there that is kind of like, yeah, this is fun. 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:05.279 But like I remember walking out of theater, I had 0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:06.839 a great time at the theater. I went to watch 0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:08.760 my dad and it was like it was a blast 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.840 to watch, but I sat there with it not in 0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:13.839 my chest. Throughout, Like even as I walked that, I 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:17.239 was like, there was that not until I actually sat 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:19.440 down a road it read about it. It was kind of 0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:22.520 like it was a weird experience where I just untangled 0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:24.400 that not and kind of like think about it. So 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:27.239 that's kind of where even wedding but it came from, right. 0:46:28.280 --> 0:46:31.640 I think that that's so because this was very much 0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:36.080 my entry point to his catalog. Reading your work and 0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:40.200 others work on just their relationship with this director in 0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:42.920 addition to this movie and sort of all of the 0:46:42.960 --> 0:46:47.319 baggage that comes with it is so interesting because I think, like, 0:46:47.480 --> 0:46:52.000 as you have witnessed, it's sort of like in Western 0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:55.239 movie culture, it's like, oh, you know, it's like a secret, like, oh, 0:46:55.280 --> 0:46:57.800 you've seen this movie that is one of the hugest 0:46:57.840 --> 0:47:00.960 movies in the world, But here it's sort of relegated 0:47:01.000 --> 0:47:05.280 to like really enthusiastic letterboxed users filling a movie theater 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:10.400 on the West Side. And so honestly, when I first 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:13.800 saw this movie, I did not know that the story 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:18.919 was rooted in any sort of political ideology at all 0:47:19.080 --> 0:47:19.919 until I read your. 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:24.040 Work and just to speak to your kind of complicated 0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:29.040 relationship with the movie, that's also, like so many of 0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:32.640 the movies we cover on this podcast, especially ones that 0:47:32.680 --> 0:47:35.920 we grew up with or have some kind of nostalgic 0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:39.600 attachment to or love in any way, we sort of 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:42.719 have to reconcile that, like, oh yeah, it was a 0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:47.120 really entertaining movie to watch, but oh no, there's all 0:47:47.160 --> 0:47:51.200 these things that you have to unravel. 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:56.320 Art isn't always once, and that's internal struggle for sure. 0:47:57.160 --> 0:48:00.719 So we've been kind of hinting at this sort of 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:05.560 political and cultural context that again if you're not pretty 0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:09.279 intimately familiar with already, which like Jamie, I was not 0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:12.799 either I only I mean, I of course know of 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:16.319 the caste system in India, but I don't know or 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.600 I didn't know really any of the nuances of it. 0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:22.799 I didn't There's just a lot of things about it 0:48:22.840 --> 0:48:27.200 that I didn't fully comprehend. And also it was only 0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:32.440 very recently that I learned about the far right like 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:37.200 Hindu centric government that exists in India right now, and 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:41.560 how that informs quite a bit of media and like 0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:43.880 there's a lot of like propaganda and a lot of 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:49.319 people are calling RRR like Hindu castist propaganda. So and 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:51.600 this is what your piece. The writing that you've done 0:48:51.600 --> 0:48:55.480 about this movie is largely about that. So we're just 0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:59.439 curious kind of your thoughts on all that. 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:02.319 Regarding the cast thing, you know, the guy and get 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:03.880 at the white guy, and get at who's like I 0:49:03.880 --> 0:49:06.600 would have voted for Obama a third time or whatever. Yeah, 0:49:07.320 --> 0:49:09.879 like that kind of vibes where people are like Obama won, 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:13.799 Racism is defeated, it's over, and like people act like that, 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:17.759 but like reality is, it's like absolutely not. Castism is 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:21.840 kind of life everywhere, and castism is built into a 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:25.640 little sect of like the white things work. So that's 0:49:25.680 --> 0:49:28.120 kind of how that works. But regarding the movie itself, 0:49:28.320 --> 0:49:32.520 it's genesis is in the very specific who speaking region 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:35.960 in South India weren't there was one state. It was 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:39.760 called entrepredaesh Andra is the place Brebace essentially means place 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:43.520 or state andreprebaish And what happened was a few years 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:46.960 back in the mid twenty tens, they divided the state 0:49:47.080 --> 0:49:51.000 into you know, a state called Andra and like you 0:49:51.080 --> 0:49:53.520 had under the state formed called Langhana, which was a 0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:57.399 long thought, you know struggle like that state being formed 0:49:57.520 --> 0:50:00.760 was a long movement and one of the he figures 0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:04.000 out that sort of movement was comer Empin, who's you know, 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:06.399 one of the figures in the movie, and the other 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:10.960 figure in the movie, Sidramaraju, is like the under figure. 0:50:11.000 --> 0:50:14.440 So essentially, the movie, as Roger Mole tells, it, began 0:50:14.680 --> 0:50:17.279 with the idea of watching this one state become two 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:21.040 states boats speaking essentially the same language but like the 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:23.520 same language but like in different dialects for the most part, 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:25.840 and trying to make a movie to kind of like 0:50:25.880 --> 0:50:30.920 showcase their unity essentially. And so Flangana's symbol being pen 0:50:31.080 --> 0:50:34.480 and like under symbol being ram and they're sort of 0:50:34.560 --> 0:50:38.759 like imagined constructive brotherhood on screen as a way of 0:50:38.800 --> 0:50:42.279 like symbolizing that sort of imagined friendship and unity of 0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:45.360 the states. And this is right through sort of like 0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:48.440 you know, Roger Molly's big sort of mythic influences, where 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:51.319 like he grew up reading you know, some directors, like 0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:53.239 if you're in America, you grew up reading I don't know, 0:50:53.320 --> 0:50:56.319 some Spider Man comics, Orman comics or stuff like that, 0:50:56.400 --> 0:50:58.880 right because those are American pop culture. But like for 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:01.960 someone like Roger Mole, he up on comics which are 0:51:02.000 --> 0:51:05.160 like essentially Amara means immortal ship, Throm means you know, 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:09.480 picture Kata means stories, so immortal picture stories. He grew 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:12.680 up on those comics, which are largely about retellings of 0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:16.400 like Hindu mythology and like stories about gods and like 0:51:16.520 --> 0:51:19.359 demi gods and figures like that. So those kind of 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:22.640 informed his work and so and that's you see that 0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:26.520 evidently as prior film. Most evidently they're inbopability, which is 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:28.319 two parts and it was a huge thing a few 0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:31.520 years back. But you've also see here where like his 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:34.439 mythic influences and like all of those films are into 0:51:34.480 --> 0:51:36.719 the film where you know, Ram is framed at the 0:51:36.800 --> 0:51:40.239 end of the movie, like the mythic Ram god, right, 0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:43.120 you know, and Pim is like almost framed in the 0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:46.120 context of like the films like Pen from the Mahavaratha. 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:48.600 So there's a lot of stuff like that where and 0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:51.400 it's like you see his influences and the way the 0:51:51.400 --> 0:51:55.839 film works is essentially it's a big rallying cry. It's 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:59.800 like celebratory and nationalistic. But the problem is in the 0:51:59.800 --> 0:52:02.839 way it is. See this is interesting because like when 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.480 you see a movie like this, like you when the 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:08.680 West first discovered RRR, A response was largely kind of 0:52:08.800 --> 0:52:12.160 like almost built in, like a sort of hyperbolic reaction like, 0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:14.680 oh my god, this is the greatest nope I've ever seen. 0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:17.040 I've never seen anything like this. There's a tiger and like, 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:20.000 you know, it's kind of like over the top response, right. 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:22.319 And also there's the kind of like and I think 0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:24.520 that there's a certain I understand that on a certain 0:52:24.600 --> 0:52:26.400 level because like when you look at Call of You, 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:28.640 what what all of these movies are made in is 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:31.840 a sort of like white Western hegemony, and so everything 0:52:31.920 --> 0:52:34.400 kind of exists and comes out through that mechanism, and 0:52:34.480 --> 0:52:37.839 that machine means certain kinds of films just don't get made. 0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:40.759 There are films that do sometimes get made are kind 0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:43.759 of exceptions. So when you see something where like you know, 0:52:44.080 --> 0:52:45.600 the bridish of like the white people are kind of 0:52:45.680 --> 0:52:48.160 largely twitted, like the way you know, I say, Indiana Jones, 0:52:48.160 --> 0:52:51.600 Sweet's the Nazis, they're like, oh my god, this is 0:52:51.640 --> 0:52:53.759 so cool. This is kind of like radical and like 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:57.200 all of that because like this is anti colonialness, anti imperialists. 0:52:57.200 --> 0:53:00.000 But the reality is when you look at post colonials 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:04.359 sieties and push bolomul nations. What happens is like when 0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:07.759 they're taken over and inflicted with all of that they're 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:11.680 inflicted with across time, and when the oppressor is kind 0:53:11.719 --> 0:53:14.560 of like left and there's the independence, what's left is 0:53:14.640 --> 0:53:16.799 the sense of like there's a kind of whole of 0:53:16.880 --> 0:53:21.160 like what we were, what we became and we aren't, 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:22.960 and what we are going to be, and so the 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:26.440 sense of a lost past, but a lost what we 0:53:26.560 --> 0:53:29.600 could have been that is sought and seen. And so 0:53:30.000 --> 0:53:32.080 a lot of the times it's with stuff like that 0:53:32.080 --> 0:53:34.799 that nationalism is built. And when there's when you're a 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:37.960 colony and when you're oppressed, that sort of nationalism is 0:53:38.000 --> 0:53:40.960 a very powerful revolutionary radical act to like you know, 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:44.200 fight against the oppressor. But after the oppressor's gone in 0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:46.520 like decades have passed on and like it's almost been 0:53:46.560 --> 0:53:49.560 a century, right, that nationalism can sort of take on 0:53:49.600 --> 0:53:52.120 a different sort of flavor or fervor, and like it 0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:54.840 can feel of a different because like at that point 0:53:55.000 --> 0:53:59.160 it's kind of all internal mechanicians and politics, and so 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:01.800 that's kind of what you're dealing with. Because like the 0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:04.360 Hindu nationalism and hindusw it animates a lot of the 0:54:04.400 --> 0:54:07.200 stuff that you see now about India and rooted in India. 0:54:07.800 --> 0:54:10.480 It goes back to the early nineteenth century when India 0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:14.040 was still occupied by the British, where in like you know, 0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:17.759 the Hindu right wing figures like literally went over to 0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:21.040 like Mussolini's Ghetaly and like toured all of that fascist 0:54:21.239 --> 0:54:23.560 nonsense and we're like, yeah, you know, this is pretty 0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:25.880 fucking cool. We should like we should get into this. 0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:28.680 And so it's kind of like taken from that and 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:31.200 like combining it with like the worst aspects of like 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.000 old school Hinduism and you get this very right wing 0:54:34.040 --> 0:54:38.520 ideology which forms the RSS, which is a stupid death 0:54:38.560 --> 0:54:42.600 cult of like fascist idiots. And that cult is what 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:46.280 the members of that cult is the person that killed 0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:50.799 and shot Gandhi and so that cult got banned very 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:55.320 early on for ages. But later on in the twentieth century, 0:54:55.920 --> 0:55:00.560 what happened is essentially you have figures like I think 0:55:00.600 --> 0:55:03.000 it was exactly the nineteen eighties when like the RSS 0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:04.880 kind of came back and like you know, made a 0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:07.000 kind of big thing, and they made a party called 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:10.239 the BJP, and then the BGP would slowly grow and 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:11.919 you know, now it's kind of it kind of runs 0:55:11.920 --> 0:55:14.160 the country much like the RSS ones everything. It's they're 0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:18.480 bigger than ever, and it's kind of a distressing affair. Yeah, 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:21.160 back to the movie, it's kind of is it's very 0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:23.319 much a status pro movie in the sense of like 0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:27.720 the most average you know MCU or like an American 0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:30.320 blockbuster is kind of like it. You don't go to 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:33.719 these movies for radical politics, right because, like in the 0:55:33.760 --> 0:55:35.920 context of a film like this, even though for a 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:39.239 Western audience this might seem radical because it's like, you know, 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:41.239 all the white people are not kind of great, and 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:43.880 you know, it's kind of like anti colonial, anti imperialist, 0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:46.920 the reality in the context of post colonial societies is 0:55:47.200 --> 0:55:49.799 like when you look at a film like this, being 0:55:49.800 --> 0:55:52.880 anti imperialist and anti colonialist can still very much be 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:55.760 a conservative position as opposed to a radical position when 0:55:55.800 --> 0:55:58.920 you're dealing with liasis, where like naturalism and all of 0:55:58.960 --> 0:56:01.160 that is used to your writing purses. 0:56:02.400 --> 0:56:05.680 Right because again, like on the surface, just for like 0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:10.440 a you know, average American viewer watching this movie, it's like, Wow, 0:56:10.560 --> 0:56:14.040 here's a big, fun spectacle with music and dancing and 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.239 over the top action and it's got these themes of 0:56:17.560 --> 0:56:22.359 anti imperialism and anti colonialism and also friendship and the 0:56:22.360 --> 0:56:23.319 British people are. 0:56:23.239 --> 0:56:29.160 The bad guys. Friends defeat imperialism together, right, Yeah. 0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:31.720 Yeah, so it's just like again, the first time I 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:34.759 saw it, I was just like, woohoo, I'm cheering in 0:56:34.760 --> 0:56:37.680 the theater. I'm having so much fun. And then, you know, 0:56:37.719 --> 0:56:41.600 I started to do some digging about the like context 0:56:42.200 --> 0:56:46.440 from which this movie comes out, and as you outline 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:52.239 in your vox piece and there's another piece you wrote. 0:56:52.200 --> 0:56:54.000 Yeah, one of the words that you use in your 0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:56.680 vox face that really stuck with me is that this 0:56:57.000 --> 0:57:02.920 movie decontextualizes a lot of history, which I mean seems 0:57:02.920 --> 0:57:07.279 absolutely true, and also does it under sort of false pretenses, 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:09.480 because if you don't know the history, it does seem 0:57:09.560 --> 0:57:12.280 like either this is made up if you're not familiar 0:57:12.320 --> 0:57:15.520 with the figures, or you're receiving some sort of grand 0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:20.120 historical epic context. Because we were. We just covered the 0:57:20.160 --> 0:57:25.240 Woman King as well, and there's a not a similar issue, 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:29.240 but a historical figure who is represented as being abolitionist 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:32.600 who absolutely was not, but that's how it's presented in 0:57:32.600 --> 0:57:36.560 the movie. And unfortunately, you know, and this is like 0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:42.360 an issue with historical epics across everything, but that's often 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:46.160 about as far as people will, you know, take an interest. 0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:50.280 And so this movie breaking through with this specific viewpoint. 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:52.480 It's a bit scary. 0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:57.560 Because you talk in your piece about how there's a 0:57:57.600 --> 0:58:01.760 lot of Indian media that again it's coming out in 0:58:01.800 --> 0:58:09.680 this pro Hindu is it pronounced? Which is this political 0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:15.640 ideology that is like reinforced by militant groups that's just 0:58:15.800 --> 0:58:19.400 like pro Hindu anti Islam. 0:58:19.800 --> 0:58:21.840 That it is the idea that it is the idea 0:58:21.840 --> 0:58:24.920 that India is essentially a Hindu state and should always 0:58:25.000 --> 0:58:26.120 be a Hindu state. 0:58:26.200 --> 0:58:30.240 And it's kind of just it's repellent, right which and 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:33.280 it's and it's leading to, you know, extreme oppression and 0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:37.360 violence toward Muslim people who live in India. And then 0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:40.960 it's also reinforcing the caste system, which is, you know, 0:58:41.000 --> 0:58:44.840 a very elitist and oppressive system. 0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:47.640 Idea of a hierarchy, which is kind of always there. 0:58:48.080 --> 0:58:51.080 And it's interesting. It's like you look at this film 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:53.840 and because we're you know, we're we are on the 0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:56.120 Bechtel cast So let's talk about that aspect of it. 0:58:56.320 --> 0:58:59.040 I'm not sure this movie actually past the adult test 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:02.400 because like this movie is rife with a male centrism 0:59:02.440 --> 0:59:06.160 that is like very indicative of Roger Mally's work, and like, 0:59:06.800 --> 0:59:09.360 in fairness to him, I think it's also just like 0:59:09.640 --> 0:59:11.600 the kind of space humor just from so it's not 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:14.280 just specific to his work, but definitely the movie is 0:59:14.400 --> 0:59:18.000 a glaring display of like limitations in that sense, because 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:20.200 you look at them female characters in the movie and 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:23.440 it's like it's Jenny and you know, it's Seetha, and 0:59:23.520 --> 0:59:26.000 both of them are kind of just framed in relation 0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:28.400 to these man and kind of all they do is 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:31.360 kind of in service of the great Man's story. Like 0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:33.720 I remember recently there was a great interview with The 0:59:33.720 --> 0:59:36.920 New Yorker, you know, conducted by Simon Abrams with Roger Moully, 0:59:36.960 --> 0:59:40.400 the director, and Roger Moull completely imprompted, brings up the 0:59:40.440 --> 0:59:42.960 fact that he loves Iron Rand and like the fountain 0:59:43.000 --> 0:59:46.360 Head and shit like that. Yeah, and suddenly everything kind 0:59:46.400 --> 0:59:49.440 of makes perfect sense. It's like it fits, and like 0:59:49.920 --> 0:59:52.640 I think that kind of helps contextualize for Western audience 0:59:52.640 --> 0:59:53.560 in some regards. 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:58.440 Yeah, So I've been to multiple screenings of this movie 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:01.640 where SSR was is like there to do a Q 1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:04.480 and A. It's when he he was coming to the 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:08.040 US a lot to campaign for like awards, to like 1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:11.480 try to get nominated for oscars and stuff like that worked. 1:00:11.520 --> 1:00:14.760 And so I've seen him in the flesh four times 1:00:15.160 --> 1:00:20.480 brag and people would always ask, like they would try 1:00:20.520 --> 1:00:23.160 to like get him to say that this was like 1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:26.440 a political film making political statements, and he would always 1:00:26.600 --> 1:00:30.960 refuse to say that. And and at one point he 1:00:31.120 --> 1:00:35.000 was like, oh, some of my influences in like American 1:00:35.040 --> 1:00:39.440 cinema are Mel Gibson. And I was like, no, yeah, funny. 1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:43.240 Oh I was so fun there for that one. You're like, oh, okay, 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:44.760 we're having like a nice time. 1:00:44.840 --> 1:00:50.000 No Ill that interview, that very same New Rope interview, 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:53.760 he talked like, Okay, So his dad is a screenwriter, right, 1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:55.560 and that's kind of how he broke him. His dad 1:00:55.600 --> 1:00:57.840 was a screenwriter. Establish screenwriter he got him working, like 1:00:57.880 --> 1:00:59.520 that's where he broke into the industry and and all that. 1:01:00.440 --> 1:01:04.120 His dad is a seasoned screenwriter and he's currently working 1:01:04.240 --> 1:01:08.480 on a big RSS movie for this fascist stupid death 1:01:08.520 --> 1:01:11.600 cult you know runs every He so the dad who 1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:14.400 wrote Coro, you know, worked on RR with me because 1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:16.800 like Roger Old. Every movie Roger Mullien makes mostly with 1:01:16.840 --> 1:01:21.080 his dad, that dad and his writer and closest collaborator 1:01:21.200 --> 1:01:23.800 is working on this RSS movie for the RSS is 1:01:23.880 --> 1:01:26.720 hired by them, and having done the research and work 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:28.480 on that movie, he came out of it with a 1:01:28.640 --> 1:01:33.760 very favorable view towards this organization. And when asked about this, 1:01:34.240 --> 1:01:36.680 Roger Mulli in that interview is like, well, I don't 1:01:36.680 --> 1:01:38.680 really know what the RSS is, but I read the 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:40.960 script and I cried, and it's an amazing script and 1:01:41.000 --> 1:01:43.560 it's so emotional and it's it would be a beautiful movie. 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:46.040 And it's kind of like, that's what the exact moment 1:01:46.080 --> 1:01:49.040 of Like okay, one, saying he does not know much 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:51.600 about the RSS is like total bullshit in the context 1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:53.520 in the modern India he lives in, that's kind of 1:01:53.520 --> 1:01:54.440 just disingenuous. 1:01:54.880 --> 1:01:57.120 It was, that sounds like a lie. 1:01:57.240 --> 1:01:59.440 And like two, it's kind of like it lays there, 1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:03.360 the bullshit, like I'm a political filmmaker, Like no, what 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:06.920 even your supposed quote un a political stance is a 1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:10.760 clearly political stance because his stance is essentially a bare 1:02:10.960 --> 1:02:14.120 minimum basic statistical forming stance. And the thing about the 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:17.280 status real forming stances is that like it largely affirms 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:19.680 the systems and the way things are as opposed to 1:02:19.760 --> 1:02:23.480 any actual radical change. It doesn't actually have an imagination 1:02:23.800 --> 1:02:26.880 imagine beyond what it is. They can only see what. 1:02:26.880 --> 1:02:28.080 Has been right. 1:02:28.520 --> 1:02:31.800 That's something I've read that New Yorker interview as well, 1:02:31.880 --> 1:02:37.280 and it's really interesting, and that you mentioned that about 1:02:37.320 --> 1:02:40.480 seeing as SR speak in person, Caitlin, where it does 1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:43.920 seem like any time he is confronted with a political question, 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:47.320 there's this tendency to be like, well, I'm just an entertainer, 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:53.000 which is definitely a pattern that I recognize, and people 1:02:53.040 --> 1:02:55.200 who are clearly making political stuff but don't want to 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:58.760 necessarily label themselves as such, because that even that I 1:02:58.960 --> 1:03:02.880 rand question. He says, I understand parts of her philosophy, 1:03:03.160 --> 1:03:05.560 but that goes over my head when she gets into it. 1:03:05.840 --> 1:03:07.600 I'm not such a deep thinker. I'm more of a 1:03:07.680 --> 1:03:10.160 dramatic thinker. So I like the drama part of it, 1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:11.600 and it's like yeah, but. 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:16.920 You know, yeah, it's it's the essential like decontextualize. It's 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:21.040 the idea of decontextualizing something and making a pure character drama. 1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:24.800 But you he does not seem to realize, or maybe 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:26.800 he doesn't. He's not, you know, willing to admit it 1:03:27.160 --> 1:03:31.160 openly that you can't really decontextualize certain ideas in certain 1:03:31.240 --> 1:03:36.360 fantasies from their nature when you're you know, his essential 1:03:36.400 --> 1:03:39.000 problem then it's a problem that you'll see acrosss work 1:03:39.080 --> 1:03:43.000 is that he takes things and you know, presents them, 1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:46.120 but he never actually critically engages with them or is like, hey, 1:03:46.160 --> 1:03:48.360 maybe wait a minute, what does this actually mean? What 1:03:48.400 --> 1:03:51.760 does this choice or what does me packaging or representing 1:03:51.800 --> 1:03:54.440 this kind of thing implicate. He does not really think 1:03:54.440 --> 1:03:54.800 about that. 1:03:54.840 --> 1:04:00.120 He's just like, wow, cool, right, there's no interrogation of 1:04:00.560 --> 1:04:04.800 oppressive structures and systems that he has to be well 1:04:04.800 --> 1:04:11.040 aware exists, even though he's having deniability about it. So, like, 1:04:11.560 --> 1:04:14.320 the thing with R r R is that it's not 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:21.040 like obviously and outwardly hateful toward marginalized groups in India 1:04:21.680 --> 1:04:25.840 such as Muslims and people who belong to lower casts, 1:04:26.640 --> 1:04:31.400 but it is centering and uplifting already privileged groups of 1:04:31.440 --> 1:04:37.439 people and subtly or maybe not so subtly, promoting this 1:04:37.680 --> 1:04:43.680 existing Hindufa ideology. Because as you say, in your vox piece. 1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:48.960 There's a number of Indian films that have come out 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:53.360 just over the decades that frame a Muslim character as 1:04:53.400 --> 1:04:56.320 like the evil villain or or. 1:04:56.120 --> 1:04:59.080 More likely like there's things like the christianir Filds, which 1:04:59.080 --> 1:05:02.600 are l like vile, evil and kind of like this is. 1:05:02.760 --> 1:05:04.840 You can't even stand to watch this fucking frame of it. 1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:07.560 It's like it's so wild and heinous. It's kind of 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:11.080 just disgusting and repugnant on site. And that's like a 1:05:11.200 --> 1:05:14.240 very clear for right wing extremist film. But like something 1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:17.080 like rr Is, I think something like it's a much 1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:20.600 more it's a quote unquote liberal film and that you 1:05:20.720 --> 1:05:23.720 have you know, Muslims, but like or even when like 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:25.800 he is kind of like portrayed as a Muslims, he's 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.600 kind of like the simpleton, or like it's very much 1:05:28.600 --> 1:05:30.920 the idea of like it's liberal and then like everybody 1:05:30.960 --> 1:05:33.880 and everything is subservient to this sort of like the 1:05:33.960 --> 1:05:37.120 Super Hindu Hero, which is kind of rom like right, 1:05:37.240 --> 1:05:40.800 everything is kind of like there's a hierarchical perspective is 1:05:40.880 --> 1:05:42.800 kind of what it highlights, even as it does not 1:05:43.040 --> 1:05:45.040 necessarily want to demonize anything, if. 1:05:44.880 --> 1:05:46.680 That makes sense, exactly. 1:05:46.840 --> 1:05:49.720 Yes, that's that's what I mean, the status pro yeah, right. 1:05:50.000 --> 1:05:55.320 And another example is Beam is an indigenous person in 1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:58.840 real life, and the character is indigenous and comes from 1:05:59.160 --> 1:06:03.800 the Gond tribe, and the movie kind of like rewrites 1:06:04.000 --> 1:06:08.560 who that character was. Yeah, calmar On Bim was a 1:06:08.560 --> 1:06:11.000 well educated person who could read and write, but the 1:06:11.040 --> 1:06:14.400 movie paints him as this sort of like uncivilized simpleton 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.439 along with the entire community he comes from. 1:06:17.840 --> 1:06:20.080 Yeah, Like at the end the end of the movie, right, 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:23.240 the big sort of like climax has him ask Peam, 1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:27.360 you know this figure for like the gift of education, 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:30.160 when like in reality, Pem was an educated man. I 1:06:30.160 --> 1:06:32.840 think that kind of is illustrative of like the sort 1:06:32.880 --> 1:06:36.680 of hierarchical view the movie has and presents, which is 1:06:36.760 --> 1:06:39.440 kind of like the baked and casts of like gragernalized 1:06:39.480 --> 1:06:41.439 films you'll see again and you know if you watch 1:06:41.480 --> 1:06:44.960 Baba Belie, which is the big, you know, metaological blockbuster film, 1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:48.000 and the castism is kind of also rife there. So 1:06:48.200 --> 1:06:51.640 that it's the hierarchical perspective idea of why hierarchies and 1:06:51.680 --> 1:06:54.160 who gets to be on that and the way stereotypes 1:06:54.240 --> 1:06:57.240 derived from that perspective, that's. 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:00.280 What you see it here, right, it does. And like 1:07:00.680 --> 1:07:04.560 if we are viewing this as a propaganda film, to 1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:08.760 some extent, it's very effective because you don't really realize 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:14.440 it's happening. It's not good propaganda if it feels like propaganda. 1:07:15.640 --> 1:07:17.360 Right, it's kind of like you know a lot of 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:21.919 American blockbusters, right, like the politics, you're like you kind 1:07:21.920 --> 1:07:23.520 of just accept that they're going to kind of be 1:07:23.600 --> 1:07:25.320 fucked in a lot of words. Like you watch Top 1:07:25.320 --> 1:07:29.160 Gun and like, I was just gonna it's a fun, 1:07:29.240 --> 1:07:31.400 cool movie if it's like a fun sports movie, like 1:07:31.400 --> 1:07:33.200 the first one is a fun sports movie, the second 1:07:33.200 --> 1:07:35.560 ones but like the dads and sons and stuff, and 1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:38.200 it's fun. But like if you stop for second to 1:07:38.240 --> 1:07:39.840 think about it, it's like, yeah, you know, this is 1:07:39.880 --> 1:07:42.919 really fucked the American imperiless propaganda absolutely. Yeah. 1:07:42.920 --> 1:07:45.600 And it's bought and paid for by the American military. 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:48.720 Like Top Gun invented that whole of the system. Yeah, 1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:51.960 And I mean that's certainly not what everyone I know 1:07:52.040 --> 1:07:54.160 thought the first time they saw Top Gun, and and 1:07:54.280 --> 1:07:56.640 the numbers sort of bear that out. There was like 1:07:56.640 --> 1:07:58.200 a spike in air force after that. 1:07:58.520 --> 1:07:59.320 Yeah, absolutely. 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:04.880 Guess this is maybe an extremely oversimpl like overly simplistic question, 1:08:05.000 --> 1:08:09.520 but for our listeners, what do you feel are kind 1:08:09.520 --> 1:08:15.919 of the most glaring oversimplifications or changes that really makes 1:08:15.960 --> 1:08:18.920 two history for the for the sake of this. 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:21.760 Movie, well, definitely the one I mentioned about being and 1:08:22.040 --> 1:08:25.639 like not being educated, having to ask for the gift 1:08:25.640 --> 1:08:29.120 of education from a sort of Rom who is presented 1:08:29.160 --> 1:08:32.680 as like the war tragic. You know, Beam is not 1:08:32.760 --> 1:08:35.920 afford of the interiority of like Ram. If you watch 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:39.439 the movie, Ram is like this complex, tragic figure, burdened 1:08:39.439 --> 1:08:41.960 and like all of these things, whereas Being kind of 1:08:42.040 --> 1:08:44.080 isn't a Beam is kind of like the simpleton who's 1:08:44.160 --> 1:08:47.400 kind of in response and reaction to the great complex 1:08:47.479 --> 1:08:51.360 figure of Rom. And so there's definitely that aspect of it. 1:08:51.760 --> 1:08:56.840 You also get a long sequence of Rom's backstory, and 1:08:56.880 --> 1:09:00.680 you get no information about Beam's backstory. The movie doesn't 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:02.880 care to contextualize his character. 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:06.879 That's it's the thing of like everything and every everybody 1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:09.839 kind of becomes subserving into the story of this great figure. 1:09:10.200 --> 1:09:14.200 And it's kind of very much like that. And it's interesting. 1:09:14.400 --> 1:09:16.800 It's like I look at this film and there's a 1:09:16.840 --> 1:09:19.240 lot of it is about like people talk about history 1:09:19.240 --> 1:09:21.400 and like history isn't just an assembly of facts, right, 1:09:21.439 --> 1:09:23.920 History is something that is constructed over and over and 1:09:23.960 --> 1:09:26.240 over again, and how it is presented, how it is 1:09:26.320 --> 1:09:29.400 like built and curated. And that's kind of like when 1:09:29.400 --> 1:09:31.439 you look at the end credits of this film, it 1:09:31.520 --> 1:09:34.120 is very much a specific curation of history with the 1:09:34.240 --> 1:09:37.080 historical figures, and he chooses to show like, for instance, 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:39.599 it'll on you will not see you know a bit 1:09:39.720 --> 1:09:42.439 burn and the end of the film, who's a legendary 1:09:42.439 --> 1:09:44.080 Delta activist and is kind of like a father of 1:09:44.080 --> 1:09:48.040 the Indian constitution and possibly the greatest Indian figure that 1:09:48.200 --> 1:09:50.759 like the West probably should know over Gandhi, but somehow 1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:54.160 Gandhi is the one people know anyway. But like you 1:09:54.280 --> 1:09:56.160 don't see figures like that, but you will see I 1:09:56.160 --> 1:09:59.479 don't know Shivaji and those credits, and like it's baffling 1:09:59.560 --> 1:10:02.320 because like Shivaji was like had nothing to do with 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:04.479 fighting against the British, like that was kind of after 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:07.360 his time. The guy is kind of now a figurehead 1:10:07.560 --> 1:10:10.320 in like the modern kind of HINDUO discourse, so like 1:10:10.880 --> 1:10:13.080 he's in there. It's very much a kind of like 1:10:13.720 --> 1:10:16.920 I'm not being political, but I also I totally am 1:10:16.960 --> 1:10:17.599 by just like. 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:21.080 Just creating things, right, Yeah, yeah, it sounds like a 1:10:21.080 --> 1:10:25.160 lot of it is by omission versus by explicit rewriting. 1:10:25.400 --> 1:10:29.160 He's more a product of like being a very uncritical 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:34.120 and unthinking creator and artist. And at some points, like 1:10:34.160 --> 1:10:36.880 when the guy says, oh, I don't know much about 1:10:36.920 --> 1:10:41.600 the RSS or anything, that's sort of dishonesty. 1:10:40.640 --> 1:10:42.960 Right right, right, because when he's backed into a corner, 1:10:43.080 --> 1:10:45.200 you just have to start lying at some point. 1:10:46.040 --> 1:10:47.040 Yeah. 1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:51.400 Also in the end credits, he omits a number of 1:10:52.200 --> 1:10:58.000 Muslim revolutionaries revolutionaries from casts that are considered to be 1:10:58.080 --> 1:11:02.240 quote unquote lower it's secular revolutionaries. 1:11:02.479 --> 1:11:04.680 Also, to add to another aspect of the film, I 1:11:04.720 --> 1:11:07.240 think it's interesting, like one of the things that I 1:11:07.320 --> 1:11:10.479 found people who are really calling too is just the 1:11:10.600 --> 1:11:13.720 idea of like this film finally portrays like you know, 1:11:13.840 --> 1:11:16.400 these white Brits is like the total bad guys and 1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:20.120 like absolute monsters caricatures, or like the Nazis and Indiana 1:11:20.200 --> 1:11:22.840 Jones are like, you know, these terrible monsters, and that 1:11:23.200 --> 1:11:26.200 as being about choice and like being something very cool. 1:11:26.240 --> 1:11:28.800 But what I found fascinating and telling is that, like 1:11:29.360 --> 1:11:33.120 the movie's conceptualization and presentation of whiteness is so simplistic, 1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:36.000 so it's very much all the white people are bad, 1:11:36.080 --> 1:11:37.960 and then there is this one white person who is good. 1:11:38.000 --> 1:11:40.840 It's Jenny, as opposed to actually thinking or reckoning with 1:11:40.880 --> 1:11:44.240 the idea of a complicity and system and like Jenny 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:47.439 has complicit and the privileges for being who she is 1:11:47.840 --> 1:11:50.559 and her relation to that. It's kind of never really 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:53.040 the movie has no conception of that. It's just simple, 1:11:53.320 --> 1:11:57.040 there's good, there's bad. It's a simple idea, so there's 1:11:57.040 --> 1:12:00.000 not much actually radical or interesting things. It doesn't actually 1:12:00.080 --> 1:12:02.880 think of complete in terms of systems or complicity. It 1:12:02.960 --> 1:12:05.719 just thinks in terms of like these sole individual figures 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:08.880 doing things. And it's kind of it's the limitation both 1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:10.200 Roger Willi and the film. 1:12:10.160 --> 1:12:11.120 Right yeah. 1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:15.160 I at the end when like Beam reunites with Jenny 1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:17.720 and everyone claps in the theater every time, I'm just like, 1:12:17.720 --> 1:12:21.000 what are we clapping for? This woman is so complicit, 1:12:21.160 --> 1:12:25.240 Like her family are literally the governor's she lives in 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:29.360 the palace with these imperialist colonizers, Like, what what are 1:12:29.360 --> 1:12:30.320 we celebrating here? 1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:33.320 It's the case of like a film not really having 1:12:33.479 --> 1:12:36.120 capacity to think or like really do anything. It's kind 1:12:36.120 --> 1:12:39.040 of just a very simplistic piece of work in that sense. 1:12:39.439 --> 1:12:42.040 Now that every you know, big super action blockbuster needs 1:12:42.080 --> 1:12:44.880 to you know, really reckoned with complicity and avoidance of 1:12:44.920 --> 1:12:47.040 all of that income. But like, if you're actually saying 1:12:47.240 --> 1:12:50.120 this is radical, I think it has to actually be 1:12:50.200 --> 1:12:52.840 radical as opposed to like being you know, really simplicity. 1:12:53.479 --> 1:12:53.679 Right. 1:12:54.200 --> 1:12:57.800 Yes, I wanted to ask about because this stuck with 1:12:57.840 --> 1:13:00.640 me the first time I saw this movie. That disclaimer 1:13:00.680 --> 1:13:05.479 at the beginning of the movie is really intense and 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:09.519 in pretty long, and it's i mean, like going in 1:13:09.600 --> 1:13:12.200 with little to no context. You're like, ooh, what is this? 1:13:12.439 --> 1:13:15.280 Like this feels defensive. I wonder what like this is 1:13:15.360 --> 1:13:18.360 kind of going up against. But you know, like this film, 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:21.439 apart from showcasing the culture and geography of India, doesn't 1:13:21.439 --> 1:13:24.759 imitate or imply any person, whether living or dead, doesn't 1:13:24.760 --> 1:13:28.559 indicate any race, cast, creed, or tribe. Any resemblance whatsoever 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:31.799 is purely coincidental. The producer, the director, or the technicians 1:13:31.800 --> 1:13:34.639 of the movie have no intention whatsoever of hurting anyone's 1:13:34.680 --> 1:13:37.720 sentiments or disrespecting any traditions or maligning the beliefs of 1:13:37.760 --> 1:13:40.360 any individual or group. What do you make of that? 1:13:41.479 --> 1:13:44.640 I just think it's kind of like it's indicative like 1:13:44.680 --> 1:13:47.240 a film rather, isn't it. It's kind of like this, 1:13:47.720 --> 1:13:50.519 don't think of this as anything except cool character drama. Guys, 1:13:50.560 --> 1:13:52.880 don't think of this as anything meaning anything. It's like, 1:13:52.920 --> 1:13:56.280 it's not political. I'm just a cool dramatist, right. 1:13:56.240 --> 1:13:58.840 Like, don't yell at me. I'm not doing anything bad. 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:03.519 And it's like, yeah, well you are, though, And I 1:14:03.600 --> 1:14:07.760 still I can't not love this movie. Like it's it's 1:14:07.800 --> 1:14:08.280 a fun time. 1:14:08.360 --> 1:14:10.400 It's a fun movie, and like I think that's okay. 1:14:10.439 --> 1:14:12.920 It's just a case of like you can like like 1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:15.200 I love hop and I love hopkuin Maverick and like 1:14:15.280 --> 1:14:18.519 the key is knowing, Hey, these are fun movies about 1:14:18.560 --> 1:14:21.240 like fathers and sons and like tool sports, action ship, 1:14:21.720 --> 1:14:23.880 but also like it's kind of fucked and like you 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:26.080 kind of have like look with that complexity. 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:28.960 That's our the I mean, the whole ethos of our 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:32.040 show is you're allowed to love whatever you love, just 1:14:32.120 --> 1:14:34.439 be critical of the media you consume. 1:14:34.840 --> 1:14:36.600 Yeah, interesting, and that's. 1:14:36.439 --> 1:14:41.120 What we're doing which you think, but uh, you know, 1:14:41.240 --> 1:14:43.439 most people don't do it. And this makes this I've 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:46.559 been thinking so much about just historical epics in general. 1:14:46.600 --> 1:14:49.160 It makes me want to go back and revisit more 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:52.360 of them because no, I'm kidding, Oh. 1:14:52.240 --> 1:14:54.559 My god, that's actually a big influence on the guy, 1:14:55.200 --> 1:14:55.439 is it? 1:14:56.120 --> 1:14:56.719 That makes sense? 1:14:57.720 --> 1:15:01.640 I mean, because they're whatever they historical genre and I 1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:05.160 think I would put this movie in that category for 1:15:05.240 --> 1:15:08.880 at least big chunks of the movie, and almost every 1:15:08.880 --> 1:15:13.400 single time they have a very loose grasp on history 1:15:13.439 --> 1:15:17.040 and are often sort of the only interaction that a 1:15:17.040 --> 1:15:20.360 lot of people have with the with the history at all. 1:15:20.600 --> 1:15:23.280 Yeah. And it's interesting because like you look at art, right, 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:26.959 art is Art's purpose isn't exactly, you know, to recreate 1:15:27.040 --> 1:15:29.479 history necessarily, But it's a case of you judge art 1:15:29.520 --> 1:15:32.160 on the merit of like, Okay, what is this trying 1:15:32.200 --> 1:15:34.080 to say? And what is this constructing? And what is 1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:36.720 this construct for and what does it mean? So even 1:15:36.720 --> 1:15:39.519 if it isn't necessarily historically accurate, you look at Okay, 1:15:39.520 --> 1:15:41.559 what is this trying to tell me? Yeah, and you 1:15:41.640 --> 1:15:43.600 judge it on bat merit, And like I think a 1:15:43.640 --> 1:15:46.639 lot of the films kind of when they do construct history, 1:15:46.640 --> 1:15:49.400 they kind of struggle with not thinking certain things through, 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:51.400 and that's kind of where the pitfall is. But if 1:15:51.400 --> 1:15:53.880 you actually think things through, like can do something with it, 1:15:53.920 --> 1:15:55.960 I think you're kind of like more okay with that. 1:15:56.320 --> 1:16:00.880 Yeah, absolutely, this is my last question, but I I 1:16:00.880 --> 1:16:03.799 guess yeah, with any historical epic, it's like, well, why 1:16:04.120 --> 1:16:06.960 are we choosing this story to produce on such a 1:16:07.040 --> 1:16:10.719 large scale at this moment? Do you have an opinion 1:16:10.760 --> 1:16:13.720 on that of why SSR would choose this story in 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:14.400 this moment? 1:16:14.880 --> 1:16:17.759 Yeah, I definitely like to go back to the original point. 1:16:17.920 --> 1:16:20.479 He talked about the genesis of the film being, you know, 1:16:20.479 --> 1:16:24.120 the separation of those two states, and like so I 1:16:24.280 --> 1:16:27.160 kind of understand why because like in Andre Ram is 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:29.479 kind of a big figure who's known, like you'll see 1:16:29.520 --> 1:16:31.400 if you go around a street, you will see like 1:16:31.479 --> 1:16:33.840 big you know, statues of the guy around the streets 1:16:33.840 --> 1:16:36.600 and stuff like that, and so, and he was a 1:16:36.680 --> 1:16:38.360 huge figure for that film and kind of movement. So 1:16:38.840 --> 1:16:40.599 there's a kind of sense of like, oh, he would 1:16:40.640 --> 1:16:42.599 of course he would make that movie, And that kind 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:45.439 of makes sense, especially because there was a tradition of 1:16:45.479 --> 1:16:48.160 like having made films on you know, Ram before. There's 1:16:48.200 --> 1:16:51.519 a big classic movie based on Ram two before like 1:16:51.600 --> 1:16:53.639 eight years ago, was starting a big iconic star back 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:57.479 in the day. So it's not new essentially, So he's 1:16:57.560 --> 1:17:00.000 just kind of part of that tradition and making films 1:17:00.080 --> 1:17:03.080 that no, and like even the interesting thing is like 1:17:03.120 --> 1:17:04.800 you look at a lot of the lugucinema and like 1:17:05.080 --> 1:17:07.040 there is a lot of it that draws on mythology 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:10.040 and constructions frames its heroes or figures through that divine 1:17:10.240 --> 1:17:13.120 lens or like frames and Makinder goods and stuff like that. 1:17:13.240 --> 1:17:16.519 So he is part of that lineage and tradition. So 1:17:16.560 --> 1:17:19.160 I think there's a sense of oh, of course he 1:17:19.200 --> 1:17:21.439 would make this movie, Like it makes sense to me 1:17:21.680 --> 1:17:24.760 in that sense. But then you hear something like yeah, 1:17:24.760 --> 1:17:27.960 we're working on our r R two now, and like 1:17:28.320 --> 1:17:30.640 we're like we're working on a script and they're like 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:34.879 but why though, why it's kind of baffling. 1:17:35.080 --> 1:17:36.599 Yeah, who's that gonna be about? 1:17:37.560 --> 1:17:40.040 Right? Yeah, I mean I wasn't able to find a 1:17:40.080 --> 1:17:42.640 lot of information on it outside of just like anytime 1:17:42.720 --> 1:17:45.160 something is successful, they're like, do it seven more times? 1:17:45.160 --> 1:17:47.559 But it's like, though, this is these are these were 1:17:47.600 --> 1:17:51.639 people like, what are you what are you intending to add? 1:17:52.200 --> 1:17:54.920 Everything is IP now truly? 1:17:56.200 --> 1:18:00.400 Do you have any final thoughts anything else you'd like 1:18:00.439 --> 1:18:01.440 to share. 1:18:01.320 --> 1:18:03.160 On the film itself? The way I think about it 1:18:03.200 --> 1:18:06.479 is just like it's a fun movie and I think 1:18:06.479 --> 1:18:09.400 people can like have whatever feelings they have about it. 1:18:09.400 --> 1:18:11.720 But it's just a case of like I would like 1:18:11.760 --> 1:18:14.120 people just think through and like kind of like understand 1:18:14.120 --> 1:18:17.519 what they're watching and kind of if anything, see's the 1:18:17.520 --> 1:18:19.160 saddest thing about the movie. For me, it was just 1:18:19.320 --> 1:18:23.720 like watching people watch this and kind of watching the response, going, Man, 1:18:23.840 --> 1:18:27.160 people really know nothing about Indian cinema at all, huh, 1:18:27.680 --> 1:18:31.360 because like we're India is a huge country with like 1:18:31.520 --> 1:18:34.880 hundreds of languages, and each state is almost into a 1:18:34.960 --> 1:18:36.960 nation of itself in the sense of like each state 1:18:37.000 --> 1:18:40.679 has its own language, it's its own like whole thing. Yeah, 1:18:40.720 --> 1:18:43.479 And it's kind of like it's it's comparable more to 1:18:43.560 --> 1:18:45.200 Europe in the sense of like it's a big thing, 1:18:45.200 --> 1:18:47.479 where as I as opposed to just one you know 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:50.720 thing that's like it's a hugely diverse place and there's 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:54.719 like almost twenty industries that are separate for each language. 1:18:54.720 --> 1:18:58.439 To make separate movies in those languages, and there's a rich, 1:18:58.600 --> 1:19:01.519 long tradition of movies all of them. And I was 1:19:01.760 --> 1:19:04.160 really strufy the idea of, like, wow, people know nothing 1:19:04.160 --> 1:19:05.720 about this, and it was kind of like, so, if 1:19:05.720 --> 1:19:07.920 I have any last thing, it's I guess just like 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:10.600 I would like people to explore Indian cinema more, and 1:19:10.680 --> 1:19:13.640 just like, rather than going, okay, I watched this, and 1:19:13.680 --> 1:19:15.879 it kind of I would like people to like engage 1:19:15.920 --> 1:19:18.519 with and like see more movies in general, and kind 1:19:18.520 --> 1:19:21.160 of like, I don't know, develop a taste a sense 1:19:21.200 --> 1:19:23.400 for it as opposed to just kind of like making 1:19:23.439 --> 1:19:25.800 this one hit thing, right, I would like people to 1:19:25.800 --> 1:19:26.920 watch more movies period. 1:19:27.280 --> 1:19:31.320 Do you have any recommendations of films to check out 1:19:31.439 --> 1:19:35.320 that don't like uphold a troubling status quo the way 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:36.920 that R R R does well. 1:19:37.479 --> 1:19:40.320 So the interesting thing is, I've really been liking the 1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:44.439 sort of recent tunnel movement in the tunnel in film 1:19:44.479 --> 1:19:47.040 industry has recently, in the few years, seen a movement 1:19:47.080 --> 1:19:49.720 of like delict filmmakers and like artists who have been 1:19:49.720 --> 1:19:52.679 making their own art, and so I would really recommend 1:19:52.720 --> 1:19:55.439 people check out stuff like that. So, like prune it 1:19:55.479 --> 1:19:57.559 and folks like that. I've been doing some interesting work. 1:19:57.720 --> 1:20:01.120 I would say, definitely check that out. That's interesting perspective 1:20:01.160 --> 1:20:03.679 and like that's a lot of like I think, where 1:20:03.720 --> 1:20:06.479 a lot of future stuff is going. But yeah, mostly 1:20:06.520 --> 1:20:08.720 I would say I want people to understand and like 1:20:08.800 --> 1:20:12.160 engage with film across the work. There's so much cool 1:20:12.240 --> 1:20:15.719 history to film beyond just the sort of like okay, 1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:19.759 there's like America, and then in dialogue with America because 1:20:19.760 --> 1:20:22.800 of monster movies and samurai movies, there's Japan and then 1:20:22.840 --> 1:20:25.000 there's Hong Kong as opposed to just kind of that's 1:20:25.040 --> 1:20:27.040 kind of like, let's kind of fully grasp with that. 1:20:28.920 --> 1:20:33.000 Cool. Yeah, I'm going I have a subscription to Z five, 1:20:33.840 --> 1:20:37.400 which is a streaming service for anyone who doesn't know, 1:20:37.680 --> 1:20:42.120 is I think dedicated specifically and primarily to Indian film 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:47.880 and TV. So I have access to a lot. Yeah, 1:20:47.920 --> 1:20:51.880 well real, thank you so much for joining us. This 1:20:51.920 --> 1:20:54.639 has been such a delight, and thank. 1:20:54.520 --> 1:20:57.400 You for your work too. I yeah, it was incredibly 1:20:57.880 --> 1:21:00.400 useful and I'm very glad doing it. 1:21:00.560 --> 1:21:02.000 Appreciate it. Thank you of. 1:21:01.920 --> 1:21:05.599 Course, Where can people check out more of your work 1:21:05.680 --> 1:21:08.320 and follow you online? All that good stuff. 1:21:08.479 --> 1:21:12.600 Yeah. So I'm at writer pretty much everywhere and you 1:21:12.640 --> 1:21:14.479 can find me there and I'm a newsletter. I guess 1:21:14.479 --> 1:21:16.360 you can subscribe to that, though I haven't written more 1:21:16.360 --> 1:21:20.200 since my r or piece com is my website, So 1:21:20.240 --> 1:21:21.720 if you want to hit me up, that's where you 1:21:21.840 --> 1:21:24.280 do it. And that's kind of it. 1:21:24.360 --> 1:21:25.080 Amazing cool. 1:21:25.320 --> 1:21:26.960 Thank you again so much for joining us. 1:21:27.160 --> 1:21:29.240 Thank you for having me. This was fun. Yay. 1:21:34.200 --> 1:21:37.280 Once again, we wanted to thank Ravesh Babu for coming 1:21:37.360 --> 1:21:40.080 on the show giving us some context and giving us 1:21:40.120 --> 1:21:43.280 better insight into the movie. That was so awesome, very helpful. 1:21:44.720 --> 1:21:47.920 I like to, I mean, we like to at least 1:21:47.920 --> 1:21:51.799 try to be honest about our biases in watching movies 1:21:51.840 --> 1:21:53.800 and what we you know, you don't know, what you 1:21:53.800 --> 1:21:58.360 don't know. And even after I saw R R R 1:21:58.520 --> 1:22:01.800 with you, I read his work like that night and 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:04.920 it was so so helpful and I don't know, it 1:22:04.960 --> 1:22:06.639 was really cool for him to come on the show, 1:22:07.040 --> 1:22:11.479 look at us praising a man sickos okay, and and 1:22:11.680 --> 1:22:18.000 now return to business, which is with that historical context 1:22:18.040 --> 1:22:21.880 in mind, let's talk about the characters. Let's talk about 1:22:21.880 --> 1:22:23.400 the relationships in the movie. 1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:29.000 Yes, shall we start with the representation of women. Ever 1:22:29.040 --> 1:22:33.200 heard of it? It's bad, It's bad. Here's what I'll say. 1:22:33.240 --> 1:22:37.840 It's not good, not good oil. Honestly it was. It 1:22:37.880 --> 1:22:41.800 was pissing me off, but in at least different flavors 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:44.560 of not good. But I did. There was repeat it. 1:22:44.680 --> 1:22:51.040 Anytime man was talking to or about a woman. It 1:22:51.200 --> 1:22:53.599 was stuff like wait, I would cover writing it down. 1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:56.600 Anytime Rom talks to Sita, he says one thing and 1:22:56.600 --> 1:23:02.720 he's like, you're you're my strength, baby, Like like I 1:23:02.760 --> 1:23:05.519 am fighting for freedom and you are my strength, and 1:23:05.560 --> 1:23:09.639 like that is how men view women. Sita, my courage 1:23:09.640 --> 1:23:11.960 has always been my strength, but your courage will help 1:23:12.000 --> 1:23:17.640 me succeed. It's just very it's very reductive of Cita. 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:21.200 But we also see Ram's father discuss Ram's mother in 1:23:21.200 --> 1:23:23.920 that way, exactly, saying that, oh, she is my courage, 1:23:23.920 --> 1:23:26.759 she is my strength, which you know, I think's interesting 1:23:26.760 --> 1:23:30.760 because it's like that sounds good, but it also inherently 1:23:30.840 --> 1:23:34.599 implies in action and implies like you hold down the 1:23:34.640 --> 1:23:38.280 fort while I go to man stuff exactly truly what 1:23:38.320 --> 1:23:41.599 it is where he is just asking her to and 1:23:41.640 --> 1:23:45.960 not to say that that is unimportant or valueless. Work. 1:23:46.000 --> 1:23:49.599 It's not, but it's very I think, very gender essential 1:23:49.920 --> 1:23:52.760 to be like, all right, you were my strength. If 1:23:52.800 --> 1:23:56.960 you weren't my my fucking wife, like I couldn't kill 1:23:57.000 --> 1:23:59.639 all these guys or whatever. You know, it's just very 1:24:00.160 --> 1:24:03.439 traditional view of gender, right, And. 1:24:03.439 --> 1:24:07.840 I know that that happened historically because of gender roles 1:24:07.840 --> 1:24:09.240 and patriarchical nothing. 1:24:09.000 --> 1:24:12.720 In this movie happened, so you could. As we just 1:24:12.800 --> 1:24:15.040 talked about for an hour, this movie doesn't have much 1:24:15.040 --> 1:24:17.280 of an interest in being historically accurate. So it does 1:24:17.320 --> 1:24:20.720 feel like a modern decision like that that was a 1:24:20.920 --> 1:24:25.920 twenty whatever, twenty twenty whatever decision to sideline women in 1:24:25.960 --> 1:24:26.280 this way. 1:24:26.439 --> 1:24:30.679 Yeah, women don't exist to be men's inspiration and sorts 1:24:30.720 --> 1:24:32.160 of strength. 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:36.400 Exactly, I mean, but there are like slightly different flav 1:24:36.520 --> 1:24:39.479 I mean, honestly, the only women that we get to 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:47.280 know are Sita, Kathy, and Jenny, so three very different women, 1:24:48.360 --> 1:24:51.280 which and let's sideline Kathy for a second. The two 1:24:51.320 --> 1:24:54.599 women we are supposed to like are Sita and Jenny. Right, Sita, 1:24:54.680 --> 1:24:56.479 for the most part, like we were just saying, she 1:24:56.920 --> 1:25:00.960 is waiting, she's waiting, she's waiting, she's waiting around come 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:06.200 home past reassuring everyone Mom's got this. Towards the end, 1:25:06.880 --> 1:25:09.320 she does get some stuff to do. I've noticed that 1:25:09.479 --> 1:25:15.240 Sita and Jenny both iconically do one thing. Yes. Uh, 1:25:15.640 --> 1:25:19.479 Sita's one thing is that she thinks really quickly when 1:25:19.600 --> 1:25:23.880 police raid the space where she has just met Beam 1:25:23.920 --> 1:25:28.360 and Molly. Yeah, and she says that someone has what 1:25:28.720 --> 1:25:32.600 the disease smallpox? Small pox? Yes, so she says that 1:25:32.680 --> 1:25:35.000 someone has smallpox, and then the police get the fuck 1:25:35.000 --> 1:25:37.599 out of there, and that is like her active, her 1:25:37.640 --> 1:25:41.840 one thing to protect someone else, which is great, for sure, 1:25:41.840 --> 1:25:46.160 It's one thing in three hours, but it's great. And 1:25:46.160 --> 1:25:50.120 then Jenny's one thing happens in montage from what I 1:25:50.120 --> 1:25:53.320 could tell. But the one thing Jenny does is she 1:25:53.640 --> 1:26:00.400 gives Beam a map likeware to rest, which is I 1:26:00.400 --> 1:26:05.720 think the only time we see her be like explicitly rebellious. 1:26:05.439 --> 1:26:07.160 Towards yeah, her family. 1:26:07.320 --> 1:26:09.439 We'll get to her in a second, but yeah, Like, 1:26:09.600 --> 1:26:10.599 they both do. 1:26:10.960 --> 1:26:17.840 One thing, and the thing that Sita does is accompanied 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:21.439 by some violence, And so I wanted to bring up 1:26:21.520 --> 1:26:23.960 the kind of use of violence in this movie, which 1:26:24.000 --> 1:26:27.719 there is a lot of. This is a violent action movie, yes, 1:26:27.800 --> 1:26:33.160 but violence is used to brutalize women in this movie 1:26:33.439 --> 1:26:37.120 in a way that it's generally not used to brutalize men, 1:26:37.240 --> 1:26:40.400 with a few exceptions that I'll get to, But there's 1:26:40.439 --> 1:26:43.120 the scene where Cita like does this quick thinking and 1:26:43.120 --> 1:26:46.120 she's like, oh, someone has smallpox, and then she is 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:51.479 violently kicked by a British officer. There's another scene early 1:26:51.520 --> 1:26:55.760 on where Maley's mother is struck on the head. We 1:26:55.880 --> 1:26:59.519 mentioned that one already. Both are moments of brutal violence 1:26:59.560 --> 1:27:03.599 that sort of seem to imply like, look how weak 1:27:03.760 --> 1:27:08.479 and helpless these women are, while when men do violence 1:27:08.479 --> 1:27:13.000 in this movie it's like exciting action sequences, with a 1:27:13.040 --> 1:27:16.280 few exceptions that I can think of, all involving Beam, 1:27:16.960 --> 1:27:21.480 such as the scene where Beam is brutally beaten by 1:27:21.880 --> 1:27:25.080 that one officer who brings his motorcycle to the mechanic shop, 1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:30.080 as well as the scene where Beam is flogged publicly 1:27:30.240 --> 1:27:35.759 by Ram, which, as we've discussed, Beam is treated differently 1:27:35.800 --> 1:27:39.080 from Ram, where unlike Ram, Beam is not elevated to 1:27:39.120 --> 1:27:42.599 this godlike status, He's not given a backstory. All these 1:27:42.680 --> 1:27:46.800 different things that like create this like imbalance between these 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:49.760 two characters who we are supposed to like who are 1:27:49.760 --> 1:27:52.920 supposed to be equally important, but Ram is like elevated 1:27:52.960 --> 1:27:58.680 in this particular way, probably because Beam is Indigenous and 1:27:59.800 --> 1:28:03.519 indigenous people in India at this time. I'm not sure 1:28:03.520 --> 1:28:07.400 if this is still true today. Again, I only have 1:28:07.439 --> 1:28:10.840 a pretty peripheral understanding of the caste system, but this 1:28:10.960 --> 1:28:14.439 was definitely true at the time, that indigenous people exist 1:28:14.520 --> 1:28:18.800 outside of the caste system because they are considered to 1:28:18.880 --> 1:28:22.880 be below brah monoical supremacy, which is the ideology that 1:28:22.960 --> 1:28:27.920 dictates the hierarchy and elitism of the caste system. So 1:28:27.960 --> 1:28:30.639 I think because Beam is Indigenous, and I know we're 1:28:30.640 --> 1:28:33.960 talking about the women, and I am sidetracking and talking no, no, no, 1:28:34.000 --> 1:28:36.280 this is important to Beam. But I just wanted to 1:28:36.280 --> 1:28:42.200 like point out the ways in which marginalized people such 1:28:42.280 --> 1:28:46.240 as women and indigenous people, the way violence is handled 1:28:46.280 --> 1:28:51.920 with them versus when like Ram is doing violence. It's like, 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:55.400 look at this fucking awesome superhero and like all of 1:28:55.439 --> 1:28:56.360 his cool action. 1:28:57.160 --> 1:29:00.439 Well yeah, that takes it takes you to what we 1:29:00.439 --> 1:29:05.240 were talking about in our interview, where it was presented 1:29:05.240 --> 1:29:11.040 that Beam was not an educated man and he was 1:29:11.160 --> 1:29:15.200 serves the purpose of this story to downplay that and 1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:18.920 an exchange that I didn't remember to bring up was 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:21.559 at the end one of the last interactions, maybe the 1:29:21.640 --> 1:29:25.760 last interaction that Rom and Beam have clearly establishes like 1:29:26.080 --> 1:29:29.680 Rom is the guy, which the political implications of that 1:29:29.920 --> 1:29:32.880 is Beam at the end is like, I want you 1:29:32.960 --> 1:29:37.400 to teach me Like that is so he like they 1:29:37.439 --> 1:29:42.880 don't really end as equals, which is so weird because 1:29:42.920 --> 1:29:45.439 the whole thing is that they're holding each other's hands 1:29:45.439 --> 1:29:48.320 and it looks like that fucking meme where it's like yeah, 1:29:48.360 --> 1:29:51.919 but it's like the power dynamic between them is actually 1:29:52.800 --> 1:29:56.800 always a little uneven because it's implied that Rom has 1:29:56.840 --> 1:30:00.240 an education and Beam does not. Rom is bilin well, 1:30:00.320 --> 1:30:02.559 Beam is not. Like there's all of these things that 1:30:02.720 --> 1:30:06.360 always give Ram like quote unquote the edge over Beam, 1:30:06.840 --> 1:30:09.720 and it doesn't nullify their friendship, but it does. But 1:30:09.760 --> 1:30:12.000 the movie still sort of ends with that being the case, 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:14.439 where Beam is like, I want to be your student, Ram, 1:30:14.479 --> 1:30:15.040 and it's like. 1:30:15.240 --> 1:30:18.080 And the movie ends with yeah, Beam saying like teach 1:30:18.160 --> 1:30:21.479 me to read and write, and then Ram writes a 1:30:21.520 --> 1:30:26.759 phrase on a flag that real life historical figure Comoran 1:30:26.840 --> 1:30:32.400 Beam that was his saying, like that was his like ah, 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:36.720 but instead it has Ram Raju, like this movie attributes 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:42.360 that phrase to him. The phrase is jall jangle zamin. 1:30:42.680 --> 1:30:45.840 I'm sure I'm not pronouncing that correctly, but it translates 1:30:45.920 --> 1:30:50.000 in English to water, forest land, and it makes sense 1:30:50.080 --> 1:30:55.080 that an indigenous person would value those things and have 1:30:55.160 --> 1:30:59.320 that be their slogan for freedom. But instead this movie 1:30:59.360 --> 1:31:03.080 tribute ttes like the coining of that phrase or that 1:31:03.120 --> 1:31:08.200 slogan to Rom. Also, there's a scene in the movie 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:13.360 where Sita is explaining to Beam why Rom went into 1:31:13.360 --> 1:31:19.280 the police force, and Beam responds by basically saying, like, oh, 1:31:19.360 --> 1:31:23.120 my vision has been so narrow here. I am only 1:31:23.160 --> 1:31:26.439 trying to save one person, but Ram is trying to 1:31:26.479 --> 1:31:30.280 start this whole big revolution, like his scale is so 1:31:30.400 --> 1:31:34.960 much grander than mine. And then Beam says the tribal 1:31:35.040 --> 1:31:39.200 that I am, I did not understand. So again it's 1:31:39.280 --> 1:31:45.240 positioning Beam, this indigenous person as being simple minded and 1:31:46.000 --> 1:31:49.680 not able to see the bigger picture, which is just 1:31:49.840 --> 1:31:55.320 so insulting and reductive to characterize an indigenous person in 1:31:55.520 --> 1:31:56.280 that way. 1:31:56.720 --> 1:32:00.040 Do not like all right, back back to back to 1:32:00.120 --> 1:32:04.000 the gaps. Yes, yes, so Tita, Yes, I think that 1:32:04.040 --> 1:32:10.519 Tita is presented as kind of your classically virtuous It's 1:32:10.520 --> 1:32:14.000 it almost it is like a you know, woman waiting 1:32:14.000 --> 1:32:17.200 for her man to come home from war kind of character. 1:32:17.880 --> 1:32:20.440 She does get to do one thing, she is subjected 1:32:20.400 --> 1:32:24.040 to violence immediately, And I totally agree with what you're 1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:27.280 saying there is like the violence is to demonstrate that 1:32:27.320 --> 1:32:28.880 they that like. 1:32:28.840 --> 1:32:31.439 They need men to protect them kind of thing. 1:32:31.320 --> 1:32:36.840 They cannot protect themselves. And then we have Jenny, who 1:32:36.960 --> 1:32:39.040 has a whole different set of issues. I mean, I 1:32:39.160 --> 1:32:41.960 just like, I don't know, I mean, Jenny and Tita 1:32:42.000 --> 1:32:46.080 are written very differently. Jenny, as we discussed. I think 1:32:46.120 --> 1:32:49.479 it is a big weird problem that like she is 1:32:49.880 --> 1:32:53.120 so I don't even know. It's like whatever the level 1:32:53.160 --> 1:32:56.720 above complicity is, Like it feels like too simple to 1:32:56.720 --> 1:33:01.120 say that she's complicit. Her aunt Kathy is on the 1:33:01.160 --> 1:33:04.640 other hand, like a full on fucking tyrant and is 1:33:04.800 --> 1:33:07.960 actively I mean, there's that whole sequence when Beam is 1:33:08.000 --> 1:33:10.479 being beat by rom It's such a hard scene to 1:33:10.479 --> 1:33:15.280 watch where she keeps suggesting like more and more brutal 1:33:15.439 --> 1:33:17.839 weapons to hurt him, when. 1:33:17.640 --> 1:33:21.719 She just has a spiky whip in her dress question Mark, 1:33:22.040 --> 1:33:25.360 and she's like here, use this, Yeah, I forgot. 1:33:25.200 --> 1:33:28.960 She had it on her. So she is obviously not 1:33:29.479 --> 1:33:34.600 the top colonizer, that's Governor Scott. But she is actively 1:33:35.040 --> 1:33:40.400 perpetuating violence against Indian people the entire movie and is 1:33:40.479 --> 1:33:44.640 often suggesting to her husband to turn it up to 1:33:44.760 --> 1:33:49.360 and eleven and make the violence even more brutal. So 1:33:49.439 --> 1:33:52.240 she is a very active character in the worst way, which, 1:33:52.360 --> 1:33:55.240 as we were talking about, that is sort of one 1:33:55.280 --> 1:33:58.200 of the things this movie gets really right is like 1:33:59.160 --> 1:34:04.640 and I think is very striking to I mean all audiences, 1:34:04.640 --> 1:34:07.120 but I think Western audiences in particular, where we're i 1:34:07.120 --> 1:34:10.240 think kind of used to being asked to empathize with 1:34:10.320 --> 1:34:13.439 the colonizer or to see that, like even in modern movies, 1:34:13.479 --> 1:34:17.680 to be like, okay, so colonization's obviously wrong. But the 1:34:17.720 --> 1:34:20.320 way that the tone of this movie makes it completely 1:34:20.800 --> 1:34:24.040 possible for all of the colonizers to just be like 1:34:24.120 --> 1:34:28.400 cartoonishly like as cartoonishly evil as colonizers are. Yeah, so 1:34:28.479 --> 1:34:30.599 it's like fun and cathartic totally. 1:34:31.040 --> 1:34:35.080 Though the movie, she's the one exception of like white 1:34:35.120 --> 1:34:38.080 colonizer woman who doesn't get let off the hook, because 1:34:38.120 --> 1:34:41.160 the movie lets all the other ones off the hook, 1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:42.640 and the only other one we really get to know 1:34:42.760 --> 1:34:45.799 is Jenny. But like Jenny, there's that whole party Jenny's friends. 1:34:46.360 --> 1:34:50.920 Yeah that's exactly yeah, like which recontextualizes the party in 1:34:50.960 --> 1:34:53.639 a way. You're like, it's such a good dance scene, 1:34:53.640 --> 1:34:55.240 but like what are we doing? 1:34:55.439 --> 1:34:57.760 And yeah, like all the all the white women are like, 1:34:58.680 --> 1:35:01.599 let's dance along to the not too not too song 1:35:02.080 --> 1:35:07.320 and these men are boyfriends. They feel threatened by these 1:35:07.400 --> 1:35:10.200 brown men, and they're trying to compete against them. 1:35:10.200 --> 1:35:13.479 Right, like every white woman is an ally. 1:35:14.160 --> 1:35:18.400 Yeah, and it's like, well, no, that's not how that happened. 1:35:18.760 --> 1:35:22.799 So yeah, I appreciate Lady Buxton being in the movie 1:35:22.960 --> 1:35:25.760 and like depicted the way she was in a weird way. 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:29.920 Because the racism and other prejudices that a lot of 1:35:29.960 --> 1:35:33.559 white women perpetuate should not be ignored or let off 1:35:33.560 --> 1:35:38.839 the hook, although they are too often, So I appreciate 1:35:38.880 --> 1:35:42.120 that this movie shows like, yes, like white women can 1:35:42.240 --> 1:35:45.240 be complicit and or actively perpetuating. 1:35:45.560 --> 1:35:48.040 Yes, Like, just because you are not the most powerful 1:35:48.080 --> 1:35:51.200 person in the world right, does not mean that you 1:35:51.560 --> 1:35:54.160 do not hold a lot of privilege and cannot weaponize 1:35:54.160 --> 1:35:55.200 it against other people. 1:35:56.160 --> 1:36:01.080 Also, fun fact, lady Buxton is played by Alison Duty, 1:36:01.640 --> 1:36:05.760 who is the Nazi woman from Indiana Jones and The 1:36:05.800 --> 1:36:09.559 Last Crusade. So she is very good at playing evil 1:36:09.600 --> 1:36:10.200 white women. 1:36:10.520 --> 1:36:18.160 What an interesting life of typecasting like wild Yes, okay, 1:36:18.320 --> 1:36:20.720 so back to Jenny, Back to Jenny. Okay, So like 1:36:21.120 --> 1:36:23.519 point while taken with Lady Buxton, I agree, but then 1:36:23.560 --> 1:36:27.280 also like Jenny undercuts that same thing right where Jenny 1:36:27.439 --> 1:36:30.519 is their niece and it's I'm not saying that, like 1:36:30.800 --> 1:36:36.320 it's within Jenny's power to dismantle colonialism, Like that's an 1:36:36.400 --> 1:36:40.200 unreasonable expectation. However, I feel like she's presented because she 1:36:40.360 --> 1:36:45.880 is nice and because she is not actively individually perpetuating 1:36:45.960 --> 1:36:50.160 harm against individuals and has I think there's like two 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:53.920 different instances. One is when Beam first sees her, she 1:36:54.360 --> 1:36:57.759 tells off a police officer for beating someone for no reason, 1:36:58.280 --> 1:37:01.519 and that is like her technically using her privilege for 1:37:01.560 --> 1:37:05.439 good because she has more clout than he does and 1:37:05.520 --> 1:37:07.439 so he stops good. 1:37:07.640 --> 1:37:07.920 Yeah. 1:37:07.960 --> 1:37:12.120 And then the other time that we see Jenny likely 1:37:12.960 --> 1:37:17.200 likely push against a system of oppression is when she 1:37:17.240 --> 1:37:20.040 brings Beam back to the palace or the hat whatever, 1:37:20.080 --> 1:37:23.360 the big the big man, the big old place colonial 1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:27.679 manner and an officer or a guard or a soldier, 1:37:28.439 --> 1:37:32.320 what's the difference some guy, you know, some guy assumes 1:37:32.640 --> 1:37:38.760 that Beam is the help, and Jenny says fuck off 1:37:38.840 --> 1:37:42.439 and then apologizes to Beam and they kind of move on. 1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:46.000 So it's like, individually, sure, you know, she does the 1:37:46.080 --> 1:37:48.320 right thing in those moments, but I feel like those 1:37:48.400 --> 1:37:54.439 moments are illustrated of like therefore she is totally good, 1:37:55.120 --> 1:37:58.640 and like, I don't know, I just thought that like 1:37:58.920 --> 1:38:04.120 her level complicity was not examined in any meaningful way, 1:38:04.360 --> 1:38:06.160 in a way that there was room in this movie 1:38:06.720 --> 1:38:09.360 to happen, like and it seems like I know that Beam, 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:12.240 you know, loves her, but it seems like he is 1:38:12.439 --> 1:38:16.720 the sort of person because he is so smart and 1:38:16.800 --> 1:38:23.320 because he is so motivated to dismantle the colonialism that's 1:38:23.320 --> 1:38:26.920 affecting everyone he knows, it seems like the sort of 1:38:26.960 --> 1:38:29.960 thing that he would want to talk about. So it's 1:38:30.040 --> 1:38:33.280 kind of like it feels like it suggests that, like 1:38:34.040 --> 1:38:37.880 women are so wayfish and powerless that it's like not 1:38:37.960 --> 1:38:41.080 even worth the discussion to examine their complicity or like 1:38:41.280 --> 1:38:44.000 I don't really know what that decision was. It felt 1:38:44.000 --> 1:38:47.280 a little out of step with who we know Beam 1:38:47.320 --> 1:38:50.960 to be. But the whole like Beam rom Com section 1:38:51.080 --> 1:38:52.960 of the movie feels a little out of step with 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:55.200 who Beam is for the rest of the movie. 1:38:55.600 --> 1:38:59.200 Right, It's just like, I don't know if it's suggesting 1:38:59.280 --> 1:39:04.640 like the attention of a woman softens him up a 1:39:04.680 --> 1:39:07.960 little bit for a while or something. I don't know, 1:39:08.160 --> 1:39:08.919 because see. 1:39:08.720 --> 1:39:11.880 The at one point when the when the tiger is 1:39:11.920 --> 1:39:15.080 attacking everybody, he like puts Jenny in a. 1:39:15.080 --> 1:39:18.320 Car, who is dressed exactly like Belle from Beauty and 1:39:18.320 --> 1:39:19.400 the Beast. In that moment, me. 1:39:19.600 --> 1:39:22.559 Is and she she is very bell I mean, she 1:39:22.680 --> 1:39:26.720 looks like Belle too, But he I don't. Every time 1:39:26.760 --> 1:39:28.599 I see that scene and he puts her in the car, 1:39:28.640 --> 1:39:30.920 and it's supposed to be like I will protect you, 1:39:31.400 --> 1:39:34.040 You're my GF, now whatever, But he puts her in 1:39:34.080 --> 1:39:36.080 a car, I'm like, that could be that could be 1:39:36.120 --> 1:39:38.720 a kiss of death. That could be so bad for her. Yeah, 1:39:38.960 --> 1:39:43.120 that car can explode Like this, I wouldn't want to 1:39:43.120 --> 1:39:44.840 be locked in a car in the middle of a 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:47.639 war zone. It just feels like you're almost more more 1:39:47.720 --> 1:39:51.479 vulnerable than if you could move. But what do I know. 1:39:52.160 --> 1:39:53.599 It's hard to say. 1:39:54.520 --> 1:39:56.960 In any case. With the three main women that we 1:39:57.000 --> 1:39:59.920 get to know, they are different enough. I think Sa 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:04.040 and Jenny have certain qualities in commons, such as passivity 1:40:05.360 --> 1:40:07.760 and only being able to do one thing. 1:40:08.360 --> 1:40:11.040 Oh that's what I was gonna say. There's that scene 1:40:11.080 --> 1:40:15.720 when Beam is beating Oh yeah, there's another moment where 1:40:15.800 --> 1:40:20.679 like an indigenous character is being brutalized. When Rom beats Lachu, 1:40:21.000 --> 1:40:25.639 Beam's brother. He's like flailing his web his like stick 1:40:25.880 --> 1:40:31.160 around and his bacelet flies off. Men be flailing their 1:40:31.200 --> 1:40:36.360 sticks around and his and Rom's bracelet flies off, and 1:40:36.400 --> 1:40:39.280 we get a flashback where we see like the significance 1:40:39.320 --> 1:40:42.200 of this bracelet because like Cita has the other half 1:40:42.200 --> 1:40:45.559 of it, and it's sort of like, oh, they. 1:40:45.479 --> 1:40:50.440 Literally have like Claire's necklaces on that are like best friends. 1:40:51.160 --> 1:40:54.000 And he's like, wait a minute, I'm reminded that I 1:40:54.080 --> 1:40:58.160 have a girlfriend and maybe I should be conflicted about 1:40:58.160 --> 1:41:02.439 how I'm beating my fellow Indian. You know, Like it's 1:41:02.520 --> 1:41:04.560 just such a weird, like the way the function of 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:07.280 women in this movie is, yeah, just like to be passive, 1:41:07.800 --> 1:41:08.479 to be the. 1:41:08.520 --> 1:41:12.840 Like also to represent purity and goodness and nonviolence and like, 1:41:12.840 --> 1:41:15.920 can't we just stop fighting? And you're like, and even 1:41:15.960 --> 1:41:20.160 with I mean MOLLI is I feel like Mali represents 1:41:20.360 --> 1:41:24.400 something similar to what the women of the story, or 1:41:24.439 --> 1:41:27.960 at least Tita and Jenny represent, which is like, this 1:41:28.040 --> 1:41:32.520 is what we're fighting for, that kind of like nationalistic 1:41:32.880 --> 1:41:34.960 and I guess Jenny doesn't actually really factor in there, 1:41:35.000 --> 1:41:38.679 but like Tita and Mali, I feel like definitely represent 1:41:38.760 --> 1:41:42.599 like this is why we do what we do for 1:41:42.640 --> 1:41:47.920 the women, which is in any nationalistic narrative. I feel 1:41:47.920 --> 1:41:51.240 like that always comes up. I mean, it certainly comes 1:41:51.320 --> 1:41:56.000 up in American media all the time. It comes up 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:59.479 in Mulan. They all want a girl worth fighting for, 1:42:00.520 --> 1:42:05.640 and it's a very common and this movie doesn't challenge that. 1:42:05.680 --> 1:42:08.800 This movie, I mean, honestly, once you can get past 1:42:09.000 --> 1:42:11.800 the thrill of it, this movie doesn't challenge very much 1:42:12.920 --> 1:42:15.880 outside of imperialism and colonialism, which is very important to 1:42:15.920 --> 1:42:17.840 challenge obviously, But. 1:42:17.880 --> 1:42:20.800 Yeah, as we've discussed, it upholds the status quo in 1:42:20.880 --> 1:42:23.599 many other ways. The other thing I wanted to say 1:42:23.640 --> 1:42:29.360 about Jenny is the see the meet cute. Yes, so 1:42:29.400 --> 1:42:34.840 there's a really wild scene where so Ram is like 1:42:35.000 --> 1:42:38.559 I'll be your wingman. Beam, Oh, you want to talk 1:42:38.600 --> 1:42:44.000 to Jenny? Okay? So Rom grabs a handful of nails 1:42:44.560 --> 1:42:47.839 and throws them in front of Jenny's car to flatten 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:51.400 her tires so that Beam will have an excuse to 1:42:51.439 --> 1:42:53.080 talk to her Jenny. 1:42:53.200 --> 1:42:55.599 The scene has played so goody. 1:42:56.400 --> 1:43:02.559 It's an extremely goofy scene. Jenny is completely oblivious as 1:43:02.560 --> 1:43:05.479 to what is happening because she's driving her car, but 1:43:05.520 --> 1:43:08.080 she is not looking at the road She's seen just 1:43:08.120 --> 1:43:10.759 like staring off at the distance, being like do do doo. 1:43:11.200 --> 1:43:15.080 And then when Beam realizes what Rom did, like you 1:43:15.120 --> 1:43:17.920 would expect that reaction, his reaction to be something like 1:43:18.320 --> 1:43:20.479 what the fuck, dude, you can't just like throw nails 1:43:20.479 --> 1:43:22.400 in front of a woman's car to get her attention. 1:43:23.160 --> 1:43:27.479 But instead Beam is like, thanks, bro, it was awesome 1:43:27.520 --> 1:43:29.439 that you did that, and Rom is like, yeah, it 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:31.800 was pretty awesome that I did that, and Jenny is like, 1:43:31.840 --> 1:43:34.799 what happened? My tires are flat for some reason? Hahah. 1:43:34.960 --> 1:43:38.040 Literally, it is so like it it is it seems 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:40.960 like it's almost like Vaudevillian in the way that it 1:43:41.000 --> 1:43:44.000 plays out, because you're like, yeah, I mean, it is 1:43:44.120 --> 1:43:47.920 very weird that Beam is like, oh cool, thank you. 1:43:48.000 --> 1:43:50.920 And also it doesn't seem like Beam really notices that Rob, 1:43:51.040 --> 1:43:52.960 like why can no one see that this is happening? 1:43:53.040 --> 1:43:56.160 And it also presents Jenny as being like not very 1:43:56.200 --> 1:44:00.280 smart and completely oblivious to the world around her, because 1:44:00.320 --> 1:44:04.120 you could, like, as an audience member, you can feel 1:44:04.360 --> 1:44:07.320 you can hear the nails fall to the ground, and 1:44:07.360 --> 1:44:09.880 the way she's driving is like she's not looking at 1:44:09.920 --> 1:44:13.240 the road, She's like looking at the yeads. Here's like 1:44:13.280 --> 1:44:15.920 they're just they make her look like, oh, like she 1:44:15.960 --> 1:44:19.920 has like two brain cells. Yeah, yeah, like it which 1:44:20.240 --> 1:44:22.320 is again, which is like doesn't feel like a very 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:25.320 Again it's I know it's a different film industry than 1:44:25.400 --> 1:44:29.080 we cover, but it's like it felt weird to me 1:44:29.160 --> 1:44:31.520 of like twenty twenty two really. 1:44:31.520 --> 1:44:34.760 Right, Yeah, a movie like I have no doubt that 1:44:34.840 --> 1:44:38.320 men did things like this throughout history, because men are 1:44:38.320 --> 1:44:41.920 famous for doing scary things to get the attention of women. 1:44:42.400 --> 1:44:45.320 But because this movie came out in twenty twenty two, 1:44:45.360 --> 1:44:47.599 you would think that there would be a more modern 1:44:48.120 --> 1:44:50.439 version of that where at the very least, like if 1:44:50.520 --> 1:44:53.519 rom Is gonna throw the nails, Beam would be like 1:44:54.160 --> 1:44:57.120 what you can't just be flattening women's tires. 1:44:56.720 --> 1:45:02.160 Bro, Like, yeah, yeah, this movie is takes so many 1:45:02.240 --> 1:45:06.280 creative liberties that in moments where it's like, no, I 1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:08.200 think that that is I'm not saying that this is 1:45:08.200 --> 1:45:10.479 something that SSR has ever spoken to or as far 1:45:10.520 --> 1:45:12.599 as I can tell, Ben asked about, because it is 1:45:12.720 --> 1:45:15.439 like this is very much our wheelhouse of like what 1:45:15.479 --> 1:45:17.720 we what we would talk to him about. But like 1:45:18.800 --> 1:45:21.559 I feel like in big movies like this, this is 1:45:21.560 --> 1:45:25.240 a very broad statement and feel free to disagree, but 1:45:25.400 --> 1:45:29.960 like it seems like it's only in moments like that 1:45:29.960 --> 1:45:33.879 that creatives will like who maybe are not very interested 1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:38.240 in telling women's stories or anyone, but men's stories will 1:45:38.280 --> 1:45:40.920 be like, well that was the history. That's that would 1:45:40.960 --> 1:45:43.920 that's historically accurate, Like yeah, you also had a guy 1:45:44.080 --> 1:45:48.639 like beat a tiger, Like why is your stickler? Yeah, 1:45:48.680 --> 1:45:51.280 Like why is this the place that you are sticking to? 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:53.080 Like well, this is how it would have gone in 1:45:53.160 --> 1:45:56.639 this state, and you're just like all right, man, sure 1:45:57.200 --> 1:45:57.880 fucking sure. 1:45:58.040 --> 1:46:02.520 And speaking of not being interested in telling women's stories, 1:46:02.680 --> 1:46:06.560 there are a number of women who fought for Indian independence, 1:46:07.320 --> 1:46:11.360 though as per usual, their stories are usually not told 1:46:11.800 --> 1:46:18.160 history tends to erase them, and media about Indian freedom fighters, 1:46:18.280 --> 1:46:23.640 like RRR tends to focus on men and ignore women's contributions. 1:46:24.760 --> 1:46:30.280 I'm pulling from scholarly journal Wikipedia, of course, but just 1:46:29.640 --> 1:46:34.720 to just to name a few. Prita Lata Wadidar was 1:46:34.760 --> 1:46:40.840 a member of an Indian Republican army who died after 1:46:40.960 --> 1:46:46.559 leading a siege a successful siege on a European club 1:46:46.920 --> 1:46:53.360 in Chittagong. Sur Genie Nadou was an Indian political activist 1:46:53.360 --> 1:46:57.680 and poet. She was a proponent of civil rights, women's emancipation, 1:46:58.000 --> 1:47:05.160 and anti imperialist ideas. Ronnie Lakshmibe was a leading figure 1:47:05.240 --> 1:47:09.000 of the Indian Rebellion of eighteen fifty seven and became 1:47:09.200 --> 1:47:14.360 a symbol of resistance to the British Raj for Indian nationalists. 1:47:15.040 --> 1:47:18.479 I don't know if that means the same thing as well. 1:47:18.520 --> 1:47:21.040 I think it means, but maybe I don't know anyway. 1:47:22.000 --> 1:47:26.799 And then there is Katsturba Gandhi who was a political 1:47:26.880 --> 1:47:31.400 activist married to Mohandas Gandhi and with her husband and son, 1:47:31.520 --> 1:47:37.639 she was involved in the independence movement for India. So 1:47:37.720 --> 1:47:42.000 those are just a handful I'm sure there were many 1:47:42.040 --> 1:47:45.320 more leaders of the movement. And then also just again, 1:47:45.360 --> 1:47:48.639 women's contributions to a movement like this in general are 1:47:48.680 --> 1:47:52.960 still crucial, but their stories are often never told. Even 1:47:53.000 --> 1:47:56.519 if they weren't like leaders of the rebellion, women were 1:47:56.560 --> 1:48:02.320 still doing shit and people often ignore those narratives. 1:48:02.600 --> 1:48:05.800 So yes, and I feel like that is something that 1:48:06.439 --> 1:48:11.360 again it's like, it's so tricky. Again. We just covered 1:48:11.680 --> 1:48:14.240 the woman King, and it seems like there is just 1:48:14.520 --> 1:48:19.759 now there is some or more interest in portraying women 1:48:19.880 --> 1:48:21.679 through history like this, which I think is a really 1:48:22.000 --> 1:48:24.479 good thing. And but then the tricky part of that 1:48:24.760 --> 1:48:29.200 is like, Okay, I don't know, this is kind of 1:48:29.240 --> 1:48:31.680 a discussion for another day, and this isn't about the 1:48:31.720 --> 1:48:33.920 women King specifically, but I always worry where it's like, oh, 1:48:34.280 --> 1:48:37.320 now we're going to show like war heroes who were women, 1:48:37.400 --> 1:48:39.200 And then it's like, okay, but are we gonna undo 1:48:39.280 --> 1:48:42.519 any of the really fucked up like narratives that happen 1:48:42.680 --> 1:48:45.800 in war movies and the glarification and the nationalism or 1:48:45.800 --> 1:48:47.800 are we just going to leave that as is? And 1:48:47.840 --> 1:48:52.680 now it's it's like a I'm so sick of this, right, 1:48:52.720 --> 1:48:54.519 But like it's like a girl bossy kind of thing 1:48:54.600 --> 1:48:57.720 of like, well, now we're going to show women perpetuating 1:48:58.439 --> 1:49:02.640 women can be war law words, right, oppressive war likes, Like, 1:49:03.080 --> 1:49:06.960 I don't know, that's a broad just gut feeling that 1:49:07.040 --> 1:49:10.519 I feel like we've seen that happen before in various genres, 1:49:10.520 --> 1:49:13.800 and now it's seems like it may have become time 1:49:13.840 --> 1:49:19.040 for this genre. So it's interesting. I don't know, I 1:49:19.080 --> 1:49:21.479 don't know. We're all we're you know the world's can 1:49:21.520 --> 1:49:24.000 explode in like ten years is really hard to say. 1:49:24.320 --> 1:49:28.400 But yeah, did you have any other thoughts on the 1:49:28.520 --> 1:49:29.040 women of that? 1:49:29.880 --> 1:49:33.320 On the women's But I do want to talk about 1:49:33.960 --> 1:49:38.839 something that often gets discussed in movies about male friendship 1:49:39.000 --> 1:49:43.320 or where there are men who are friends, which is 1:49:43.680 --> 1:49:48.120 everyone is like they're gay. We've talked about this before. 1:49:48.000 --> 1:49:49.839 On It's like our Top Gun episode. 1:49:50.600 --> 1:49:53.160 We've talked about it. I think Fast and the Furious 1:49:53.280 --> 1:49:55.960 we talked about it. It's like the Frodo and Sam 1:49:56.040 --> 1:49:59.479 from Lord of the Rings thing. Yes, yeah, where close 1:49:59.560 --> 1:50:03.440 male friend ships are often perceived as having queer undertones 1:50:03.560 --> 1:50:08.320 because male platonic closeness is so foreign to people that 1:50:08.360 --> 1:50:12.200 when people see it They often ascribe a romantic or 1:50:12.240 --> 1:50:15.720 sexual component to it, which might be true for some 1:50:16.000 --> 1:50:19.639 male friendships, but it's often like the default reaction where 1:50:19.720 --> 1:50:22.200 so many people who I know who saw this movie 1:50:22.640 --> 1:50:26.280 were like, oh, Ram and Beam like oh, they're so 1:50:26.520 --> 1:50:30.160 gay for each other, which like that being the default 1:50:30.320 --> 1:50:32.040 reaction is complicated. 1:50:32.400 --> 1:50:34.720 It's like an onion discussion because you might want to 1:50:34.720 --> 1:50:39.880 be like no, no, straight, but also it's like they're yeah, 1:50:39.880 --> 1:50:42.320 It's like I feel like that. I don't know. 1:50:42.439 --> 1:50:48.000 It doesn't allow for the normalization of close platonic male friendship. 1:50:47.760 --> 1:50:53.519 Exactly with any sexuality, like across the spectrum, like you 1:50:53.560 --> 1:50:57.120 should be able to have intimacy with your friend without 1:50:57.160 --> 1:51:03.120 it being implied as romantic, and especially with men again, 1:51:03.800 --> 1:51:08.000 like across the sexuality spectrum men, I feel the way 1:51:08.160 --> 1:51:12.800 men are generally socially conditioned globally with few exceptions, it 1:51:12.840 --> 1:51:16.640 makes it difficult or there is this like implication of 1:51:16.760 --> 1:51:20.160 you should be ashamed to have an intimate and I 1:51:20.160 --> 1:51:24.240 mean like emotionally intimate friendship with another man or often 1:51:24.400 --> 1:51:28.479 another person at all, because we you know of deep 1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:33.200 platonic friendships between men and women. Is also always like oh, 1:51:33.280 --> 1:51:35.519 you guys are in love with each other and it's like. 1:51:37.600 --> 1:51:37.640 Not. 1:51:39.320 --> 1:51:40.800 And like the shift of. 1:51:40.760 --> 1:51:45.479 This reaction I think has gone a bit from like, oh, 1:51:45.520 --> 1:51:49.840 they're so gay and isn't that gross more to just like, oh, 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:53.680 there's two guys and they're gay, and like, did I 1:51:53.760 --> 1:51:55.479 want to see Beam and rom kiss? 1:51:56.200 --> 1:51:56.400 Yeah? 1:51:56.520 --> 1:51:56.840 Kind of. 1:51:56.960 --> 1:51:59.280 So it's complicated, but also. 1:52:00.720 --> 1:52:03.000 But yeah, I think it's like I agree with that 1:52:03.080 --> 1:52:08.440 you're saying. It's like, just normalizing a strong, deep, platonic 1:52:08.439 --> 1:52:10.920 friendship is like a worthy thing to do, and I 1:52:10.960 --> 1:52:13.320 feel like this movie does. It is one of the 1:52:13.360 --> 1:52:16.439 things that this movie does very successfully. The idea of 1:52:16.520 --> 1:52:21.559 like loyalty to your friend is an important thing. I 1:52:21.560 --> 1:52:25.880 think that that's really nice. I think it's good. 1:52:26.840 --> 1:52:26.920 Oh. 1:52:27.000 --> 1:52:29.839 Also, the last thing I want to say was anytime 1:52:29.920 --> 1:52:31.680 I think that, like, yeah, in the movies that we 1:52:32.240 --> 1:52:35.799 grew up with, and this doesn't really happen anymore except 1:52:35.920 --> 1:52:39.599 if it's like still happening on like network TV or something. 1:52:40.000 --> 1:52:44.040 But anytime there's you know, two, I'm thinking of like 1:52:44.120 --> 1:52:47.320 peak jud Appatow movies, where it's like anytime, like men 1:52:47.360 --> 1:52:49.559 can be friends in those movies, but they have to 1:52:49.720 --> 1:52:54.160 constantly qualify that they're straight. Anytime they experience a moment 1:52:54.240 --> 1:52:57.000 of like if they hug, if they if they touch, 1:52:57.600 --> 1:53:01.960 they're like what no, like just totally not like kind 1:53:02.040 --> 1:53:07.400 of god, what a what a distressing time that was? Anyways, 1:53:07.920 --> 1:53:10.600 not the case for Ram and Beam. They openly express 1:53:10.760 --> 1:53:13.920 their affection for each other by spending time together, by 1:53:13.920 --> 1:53:16.559 going on day trips. By I mean, they are like 1:53:17.200 --> 1:53:20.160 physically expressive with the way they love each other. And 1:53:20.240 --> 1:53:24.280 also like, because the tone of this movie is so 1:53:24.280 --> 1:53:28.639 soap opera, like, these men are certainly emoting, you don't 1:53:28.680 --> 1:53:31.040 seek I think like a lot of Western movies show 1:53:31.640 --> 1:53:35.719 like a male protagonist swallowing the pain and it becomes 1:53:35.720 --> 1:53:37.800 a fucking brick and his stomach and you're like, wow, 1:53:37.920 --> 1:53:42.679 that's acting. Meanwhile, Rom is like, yeah. 1:53:42.520 --> 1:53:46.360 They're they're both crying at different points like this, They're 1:53:46.560 --> 1:53:51.160 having emotions besides rage, because like rage, especially in like 1:53:51.280 --> 1:53:54.800 Hollywood movies, is like the only acceptable or like has 1:53:54.800 --> 1:53:58.400 been considered to be the only acceptable true emotion that 1:53:58.520 --> 1:54:03.719 men are allowed to express and feel. But guess what, everyone, 1:54:04.160 --> 1:54:07.800 the full range of emotions is available to people of 1:54:07.840 --> 1:54:12.520 all genders everyone. But also Rom often expresses his emotions 1:54:12.560 --> 1:54:16.600 by punching a punching bag. So there's that. Do you 1:54:16.840 --> 1:54:20.040 have anything else you want to talk about? 1:54:20.520 --> 1:54:23.839 I don't really think so. Yeah. I think that that 1:54:23.840 --> 1:54:27.799 that We've had a pretty comprehensive discussion. Also, listeners, especially 1:54:27.840 --> 1:54:32.320 our Indian listeners, we recognize that we've probably gotten some 1:54:32.320 --> 1:54:35.400 stuff wrong in this episode. We did our best in 1:54:35.520 --> 1:54:38.880 terms of prep and all of that, but we are 1:54:38.960 --> 1:54:42.040 very interested in what particularly our Indian listeners have to 1:54:42.040 --> 1:54:45.280 say about this. Yes, please, and just in general, because 1:54:45.560 --> 1:54:49.320 we always want to know what you think and tackling 1:54:49.680 --> 1:54:52.680 a big historical epic with which you are not familiar 1:54:52.680 --> 1:54:55.560 with the history can be kind of tricky. So if 1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:59.000 there's anything that we missed, please let us know and 1:54:59.040 --> 1:55:02.440 we will, you know, do do what we always do. Indeed, Yeah, 1:55:02.480 --> 1:55:03.440 I think that's all I've got. 1:55:03.680 --> 1:55:07.680 Ah same. Does this movie past the Bechdel test? 1:55:08.080 --> 1:55:08.240 No. 1:55:09.240 --> 1:55:12.600 There are a few small moments where women interact or 1:55:12.640 --> 1:55:18.440 female characters interact, such as when Jenny gives Molly a 1:55:18.480 --> 1:55:22.320 few gifts but Molly doesn't respond. No. There's also a 1:55:22.360 --> 1:55:27.760 scene at the party where a lady says hey Jenny. 1:55:28.200 --> 1:55:33.400 Jenny says, hi, Maggie, how's Max. Maggie says goddamn. Oh 1:55:33.440 --> 1:55:35.640 he's great, and Jenny says wonderful. 1:55:36.720 --> 1:55:39.280 I guess that Hi, Jenny, high Maggie. But that's not 1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:40.040 it doesn't count. 1:55:40.160 --> 1:55:42.880 Yeah, because immediately she's like, how's Max, And it's like, 1:55:43.120 --> 1:55:44.720 who's Max? Who cares? 1:55:44.840 --> 1:55:48.840 Like what do you? That's also with Jenny. That's another 1:55:48.880 --> 1:55:51.000 way that Jenny is shown to be kind. She's the 1:55:51.000 --> 1:55:54.680 only person who's kind to a child they've kidnapped. You're like, 1:55:55.040 --> 1:55:58.160 that's not, that's not enough. I don't know. I think 1:55:58.200 --> 1:56:02.440 I'm pretty frad I our captive address, and you're like, 1:56:02.760 --> 1:56:04.440 fuck you anyways. 1:56:07.120 --> 1:56:10.800 Okay, well, let's move on to the perfect metric our 1:56:10.920 --> 1:56:13.440 nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale 1:56:13.440 --> 1:56:16.120 of zero to five nipples based on looking at the 1:56:16.200 --> 1:56:21.360 movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Okay, let me talk 1:56:21.440 --> 1:56:24.920 through this. So on one hand, Okay, this is a 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:29.520 movie about Indian people rising up against British oppression and 1:56:29.680 --> 1:56:34.480 imperial rule in colonization and obliterating it, which is very 1:56:34.520 --> 1:56:38.080 cathartic to see, and it's very exciting. It's a fun 1:56:38.120 --> 1:56:43.000 movie and the music and the two men are so hot, 1:56:43.480 --> 1:56:44.560 and well that's. 1:56:44.400 --> 1:56:45.960 An intersectional feminist win. 1:56:47.240 --> 1:56:51.680 And yes, So those are the good parts of the movie, 1:56:52.360 --> 1:56:57.160 but as we've discussed, it upholds the status quo of 1:56:57.400 --> 1:57:03.440 the current scale, very political climate of India, and it's 1:57:03.520 --> 1:57:08.040 more or less serving as Indian nationalists propaganda. I also 1:57:08.080 --> 1:57:12.200 want to be clear that our criticism of right wing 1:57:12.320 --> 1:57:15.440 Hindu centric Indian government is not a criticism of the 1:57:15.520 --> 1:57:18.840 Hindu religion. I'm sure our listeners understand that, but I 1:57:18.880 --> 1:57:21.560 just want to make that abundantly clear that we are 1:57:21.960 --> 1:57:28.920 criticizing oppressive fasci governments and political ideologies. Yes, so the 1:57:29.200 --> 1:57:33.000 kind of like upholding of the status quo and which 1:57:33.080 --> 1:57:37.520 again is a scary status quo, along with the movies 1:57:38.120 --> 1:57:44.280 treatment of women and indigenous people being very abysmal. I 1:57:44.320 --> 1:57:48.280 also wanted to point out that again Comaron Beim was 1:57:48.600 --> 1:57:53.400 an indigenous person of the gand tribe and tr Junior, 1:57:53.440 --> 1:57:58.320 who plays him is not a Gandhi actor. So there's that. 1:58:00.680 --> 1:58:03.480 But then you see Governor Scott's blood splatter over the 1:58:03.480 --> 1:58:06.360 words the Sun never sets on the British Empire, and. 1:58:06.280 --> 1:58:10.160 You're like, WHOA, right, it's I mean it is. I 1:58:10.200 --> 1:58:14.200 think that like this movie is so unseubtle too its 1:58:14.200 --> 1:58:19.120 strength and it's detriment. Yes, and its strength is certainly 1:58:19.240 --> 1:58:24.400 like best shown with its attitudes towards imperialism and British colonialism, 1:58:24.600 --> 1:58:27.640 and that all plays very well. But yeah, in terms 1:58:27.680 --> 1:58:32.800 of it having propaganda qualities, right, if not just being propaganda, 1:58:33.280 --> 1:58:36.400 it is kind of I don't know. Yeah, it is 1:58:36.480 --> 1:58:38.760 kind of freaky that like this movie can come to 1:58:38.840 --> 1:58:42.360 the come to a Western audience and like it didn't 1:58:42.520 --> 1:58:45.240 register for I think a lot of Western fans of 1:58:45.280 --> 1:58:50.000 this movie for sure, and so it's scary. 1:58:49.960 --> 1:58:53.080 It is scary and it's complicated. With all of that 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:57.000 in mind, I think i'll give it like one and 1:58:57.000 --> 1:59:02.000 a half nipples. Still love this movie. I'm I'm gonna 1:59:02.320 --> 1:59:08.280 keep revisiting it, knowing its issues and knowing its many problems. 1:59:09.320 --> 1:59:12.120 But as far as like entertainment value goes, it's a 1:59:12.160 --> 1:59:13.680 ten out of ten on the Rampo meter. 1:59:14.160 --> 1:59:16.640 Oh, I mean, it's like seven movies and one. It's 1:59:16.680 --> 1:59:17.920 pretty fucking cool. 1:59:18.440 --> 1:59:20.240 So there's a lot to love about this movie. But 1:59:20.520 --> 1:59:27.000 we also, as always, we are going to acknowledge the 1:59:27.040 --> 1:59:31.840 things that must be criticized about any movie. So one 1:59:31.840 --> 1:59:38.360 point five nipples. I'll give one to Sita because I 1:59:38.520 --> 1:59:41.240 just wanted so much more for her. 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:42.920 She could have done two things. 1:59:43.240 --> 1:59:46.520 She could have done two, maybe even three. Now, let's 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:49.680 but reason, I'll calm down. 1:59:50.000 --> 1:59:52.560 That would be one thing per hour. Caitlin, I don't 1:59:52.560 --> 1:59:57.120 know that's too much. Uh. 1:59:57.160 --> 2:00:02.160 And I'll give my half nipple to Malley. What's her name, Twinkle, 2:00:02.480 --> 2:00:06.000 Twinkle Sharma. Oh my god, what a name, Twinkle? 2:00:06.520 --> 2:00:07.000 Incredible? 2:00:07.720 --> 2:00:08.800 What say you, Jamie? 2:00:10.040 --> 2:00:12.480 I feel like I'm coming down kind of hard. I'm 2:00:12.480 --> 2:00:16.760 going to give it one in terms again, entertainment value, gigantic. 2:00:17.200 --> 2:00:21.160 Do I enjoy watching the movie? Yes, the I mean, 2:00:21.400 --> 2:00:24.600 for kind of our classic spectel cast purposes. Women are 2:00:24.640 --> 2:00:27.840 in no way centered and they're like you're saying, like 2:00:27.960 --> 2:00:31.680 in like, there have been many women who have fought 2:00:31.680 --> 2:00:36.000 for freedom in India, And you know, this movie sort 2:00:36.040 --> 2:00:39.080 of casts a very wide, very broad, very familiar view 2:00:39.120 --> 2:00:43.240 of women as docile, domestic waiting for men to get home. 2:00:43.480 --> 2:00:46.160 The reason we fight certainly not the people who would 2:00:46.160 --> 2:00:48.840 be allowed to do anything. So in that way, I 2:00:48.840 --> 2:00:51.320 thought it was like a very kind of traditional view 2:00:51.520 --> 2:00:56.280 of gender. The way that Jenny's character is positioned as 2:00:56.320 --> 2:01:00.480 the one nice colonizer is weird. I don't think that 2:01:00.480 --> 2:01:05.280 that's an intersectional win of any sort. And also I 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:07.240 think that I'm coming down kind of hard on it 2:01:07.280 --> 2:01:11.920 because we've covered these historical epics recently and in terms 2:01:12.000 --> 2:01:16.640 of intersectionality, and no movie is going to get history 2:01:16.720 --> 2:01:21.360 exactly right. And it's not the duty of fiction movies 2:01:21.440 --> 2:01:24.920 to be documentaries. I'm not implying that, but there is 2:01:25.080 --> 2:01:29.920 I think, like our discussion today speaks to like when 2:01:30.000 --> 2:01:35.040 you get history so wrong or there's a lot of 2:01:35.040 --> 2:01:39.880 omission like that can perpetuate harm against marginalized communities, which 2:01:39.920 --> 2:01:42.840 is what our whole contextual discussion was. And so I 2:01:42.960 --> 2:01:46.280 feel and again I know that it's like I am 2:01:46.320 --> 2:01:49.240 not well versed in these issues at all. I'm still 2:01:49.440 --> 2:01:51.120 a ton to learn, and a lot of this is 2:01:51.200 --> 2:01:55.240 new information. So if I'm coming down too hard, I apologize, 2:01:55.680 --> 2:01:59.920 But from the information I have presently, it just seems 2:02:00.080 --> 2:02:03.760 like this, this movie gets history or willfully emits a 2:02:03.800 --> 2:02:08.560 lot of important history in a way that doesn't you know, 2:02:09.000 --> 2:02:14.640 it like erases a lot of marginalized communities and uplifts 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:18.440 some harmful status quos, which a lot of movies do. 2:02:18.680 --> 2:02:21.160 But because again, like we talked about this in The 2:02:21.160 --> 2:02:25.000 Women King episode two, when you involve actual historical figures. 2:02:25.600 --> 2:02:29.200 That's when it gets super super super messy. Yeah, and 2:02:29.920 --> 2:02:34.080 so that is sort of where I stand on that. 2:02:35.320 --> 2:02:37.919 It's a super fun movie to watch. It's really exciting. 2:02:38.320 --> 2:02:41.560 I like, and the live viewing experience. Someone threw a 2:02:41.600 --> 2:02:43.840 fucking like inflatable tiger at the screen. 2:02:43.920 --> 2:02:45.880 It was just like it was a lot people get 2:02:45.960 --> 2:02:48.640 up and dance along with the not to not too scene. Like, 2:02:49.440 --> 2:02:53.600 it's just an an electric viewing experience. 2:02:53.960 --> 2:02:56.520 It's intense, yeah, I mean, and so for the movie 2:02:56.560 --> 2:03:01.320 going experience, it's fucking unbelievable. Like Russian movie is an 2:03:01.360 --> 2:03:06.280 incredibly talented filmmaker, but a lot of the writing is 2:03:06.320 --> 2:03:10.080 a bit concerning. And so I'm gonna give it one nipple. 2:03:10.120 --> 2:03:13.560 I apologize if that's too harsh, and I'm gonna give 2:03:13.600 --> 2:03:16.640 it to Sorry, I guess I'm gonna give it to 2:03:17.240 --> 2:03:19.600 I'll split it between Molly and her mom because it 2:03:19.720 --> 2:03:23.920 is such a brutal two punch opening scene and I'm 2:03:23.920 --> 2:03:26.640 glad that they are reunited. I really thought that they 2:03:26.680 --> 2:03:29.760 killed her mom, and I am. The movie is so 2:03:29.800 --> 2:03:33.280 long that sometimes I forget that she does live between 2:03:33.280 --> 2:03:34.640 the beginning and the end, because. 2:03:34.440 --> 2:03:36.840 You only see her in the opening sequence and then 2:03:36.960 --> 2:03:41.320 in the credit sequence like yeah, she gets brought back 2:03:41.360 --> 2:03:44.839 to screen after the movie has ended and they're playing 2:03:44.920 --> 2:03:47.640 like the big credit song and dance number. 2:03:47.960 --> 2:03:51.360 Yeah. I'm just glad that Molly got to reunite with 2:03:51.400 --> 2:03:53.640 her whole family. I think that that is very It's 2:03:53.640 --> 2:03:58.360 what she deserved. So yeah, give it, give it one nipple. Sorry, 2:04:00.280 --> 2:04:01.400 I love you, happy birthday. 2:04:01.640 --> 2:04:03.600 I mean I give it only a half nipple more 2:04:03.640 --> 2:04:07.600 than you, so we're pretty much the same. But thank you. 2:04:07.680 --> 2:04:08.720 It is my birthday. 2:04:08.800 --> 2:04:15.920 Media, it's so complicated. Well, I'm covering Minion's Rise of 2:04:15.960 --> 2:04:17.640 Group for my birthday and we're gonna have a hell 2:04:17.680 --> 2:04:18.120 of a time. 2:04:18.520 --> 2:04:22.720 Oh wow, Yeah, I can't wait. Yep, listeners, that's our 2:04:23.160 --> 2:04:26.480 r r r r r r r r r r 2:04:26.640 --> 2:04:30.919 r or thanks again to our guest with ash Baboo. 2:04:31.240 --> 2:04:35.600 Make sure to check out there writing and you can 2:04:36.280 --> 2:04:39.840 follow us. Hey, you know what, because it's my birthday, 2:04:39.960 --> 2:04:43.080 you can follow me on social media? 2:04:43.160 --> 2:04:47.680 Oh such as unfollow me in observiance of Kaitlyn's birthday. 2:04:48.120 --> 2:04:50.640 Yeah, take your follow take your follow away from Jamie 2:04:50.640 --> 2:04:53.800 and give it to me. Just kidding. You can follow 2:04:54.480 --> 2:04:58.480 anyone you want. But especially me on my special day. 2:05:00.160 --> 2:05:03.640 I'm trying to be more active on TikTok, which I 2:05:03.680 --> 2:05:08.280 don't know how to feel about. I'm less active on 2:05:08.360 --> 2:05:12.920 Twitter than I've ever been before, except to convince people 2:05:12.960 --> 2:05:17.320 to cast me in Paddington three, which is at the 2:05:17.320 --> 2:05:20.360 time of this recording, and we're recording pretty far out 2:05:20.480 --> 2:05:22.960 but so hopefully this doesn't change by the time this 2:05:23.000 --> 2:05:26.920 episode comes out. But production on Paddington three is slated 2:05:26.920 --> 2:05:31.200 to begin in July, so there's still time to cast me, 2:05:31.920 --> 2:05:34.879 and then Instagram and I'm at all of those places 2:05:34.920 --> 2:05:38.960 at Caitlin Deronte, please follow me. 2:05:39.240 --> 2:05:43.480 You can also follow our Patreon aka Maatreon at patreon 2:05:43.520 --> 2:05:46.120 dot com slash bachtel cast. Five bucks a month gets 2:05:46.160 --> 2:05:50.400 you a number of bonus episodes. 2:05:49.840 --> 2:05:51.680 And that number is too I don't know why I 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:54.240 put it like that, And you also can do per 2:05:54.280 --> 2:05:57.560 month per month, and yes, you get access to I 2:05:57.600 --> 2:05:59.800 think close to one hundred and fifty back episode cat 2:06:00.120 --> 2:06:02.720 logs at this point, and then we'll be covering some 2:06:02.800 --> 2:06:07.400 of Caitlin's thaves on the Matreon this month, so check 2:06:07.440 --> 2:06:07.800 that out. 2:06:07.840 --> 2:06:10.760 You can also follow the Bechdel Cast on Instagram and 2:06:10.760 --> 2:06:12.800 Twitter at Bechdel. 2:06:12.800 --> 2:06:16.680 Cast, and you can buy our merch at teapublic dot 2:06:16.720 --> 2:06:20.040 com slash the Bechdel Cast. Treat yourself to a little 2:06:20.440 --> 2:06:23.760 t shirt, a little phone case, a little little pillow, 2:06:24.080 --> 2:06:27.520 whatever you want. It's my birthday, so you treat yourself 2:06:29.200 --> 2:06:32.080 in observance of the national holiday. Yes, yes, wonderful. 2:06:32.160 --> 2:06:35.720 Okay, well there's the episode We love you so much. 2:06:35.840 --> 2:06:38.800 Go have a nice springtime day, do it. Oh, also, 2:06:38.880 --> 2:06:41.040 my book comes out next week. Oh my god, yes, 2:06:41.240 --> 2:06:43.880 rad Dog May twenty third. We're gonna be covering it 2:06:44.280 --> 2:06:46.840 in our well, not the book. We're gonna be covering 2:06:46.840 --> 2:06:50.960 sausage Party next week. Sorry, bye bye