1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,600
Speaker 1: On the Bechdecast, the questions asked if movies have women

2
00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 1: in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

3
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,879
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

4
00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,280
Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdelcast.

5
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,480
Speaker 2: Oh it was worth it, thank you? Oh oh oh.

6
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 2: It's the big day, Caitlin.

7
00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 3: It's the Big Days, it's the.

8
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 2: Big show, and it's Caitlin's birthday episode. We come to

9
00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 2: this place, We come to this podcast to celebrate Caitlyn

10
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 2: Duranta's birthday, and on their birthday, we of course cover

11
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,000
Speaker 2: one of their favorite movies. But first, this is the

12
00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,160
Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast. It is which means that, yeah, what does

13
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,560
Speaker 2: it mean? I'm Jamie Loftus.

14
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,160
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that you're Jamie loftas, it means I'm

15
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante, And it means that we talk about movies

16
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 3: through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply

17
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 3: as a jumping off point. Jamie, what is that?

18
00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,480
Speaker 2: Sorry, my mouth's full of biscuit.

19
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 3: That's what you are, the baiscuit gobbler, as we've established

20
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:19,840
Speaker 3: five minutes ago.

21
00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I proudly self identify there's a biscuit. It's complicated. Listeners,

22
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 2: there's a really gentrified biscuit place that opened down the

23
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 2: street and I've been I've been gobbling it up. I

24
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 2: don't feel good about it.

25
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,119
Speaker 3: Gobbled those biscuits, Jamie, but.

26
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,759
Speaker 2: I do get so hungry. Here's what the Bechdel test is.

27
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,920
Speaker 3: That passed. The Bechdel to us talking about gobbling biscuits,

28
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:41,800
Speaker 3: that passes.

29
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:47,560
Speaker 2: It's true because biscuits are famously genderless. So the Bechel

30
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,040
Speaker 2: test is a media metric created by queer cartoon as

31
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 2: Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. Lots of

32
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 2: versions of this test was originally made as a bit

33
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 2: as a joke for Alice Bechtel's Amazing comic collection Likes

34
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 2: to watch out for a lot of versions of the test.

35
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,400
Speaker 2: Here's the one we use. We require that therapy two

36
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,440
Speaker 2: characters of a marginalized gender with names speaking to each

37
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 2: other about something other than a man for more than

38
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,360
Speaker 2: two lines of dialogue. And sometimes and I'm just like

39
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 2: spitballing here. There's movies that could be three hours long

40
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 2: and not past this test. It's true, but yeah, that's

41
00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:32,960
Speaker 2: the one we use. And then we also use a

42
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 2: more important metric, which is the one that we made

43
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 2: up called the nipple.

44
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 3: Scale, perfect, flawless.

45
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 2: I don't know what I would want the nipple scale

46
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 2: to be called if we started the podcast today. I

47
00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 2: feel like we could a bunch.

48
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 3: Of disagree if we had to do it all over again.

49
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 3: That's the one thing.

50
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:57,000
Speaker 2: No regrets, no regrets that I keep. Well, Happy birthday, Caitlin,

51
00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 2: it's your birthday, it.

52
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 3: Is my birthday, and as such I have selected one

53
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,680
Speaker 3: of my a recent favorite, but one of my favorite

54
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 3: movies are R R, which is a Telugu language movie

55
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 3: from India, so it's Tollywood, not a Bollywood film that

56
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 3: I saw last year. So it was released in March

57
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,480
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. It had a release in the US

58
00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 3: and kind of by word of mouth, it grew in popularity.

59
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 3: I saw it in July or maybe June or July

60
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,480
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty two. A friend of mine was like,

61
00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,840
Speaker 3: what you haven't seen rr You'd love it? So I

62
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 3: went to the theater.

63
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 2: I mean, it is a ramp.

64
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,160
Speaker 3: It is it is a romp. Yeah, romp.

65
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:55,240
Speaker 2: It's a round ron ramp.

66
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 3: And I was in not a super full theater because

67
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 3: it was just sort of like a regae the screening,

68
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 3: but it was a rowdy crowd. The best way to

69
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,760
Speaker 3: experience this movie is in a theater with a crowd

70
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 3: who is cheering and clapping. And that's how I saw

71
00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,920
Speaker 3: it the first time. And then I've since seen it

72
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,480
Speaker 3: six times in theaters total.

73
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,160
Speaker 2: Often in Q and A settings, right, yeah, the.

74
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 3: Director with the director in like huge theaters, you know.

75
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 3: I think the biggest one was a like a fifteen

76
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,919
Speaker 3: hundred seat theater in downtown Los Angeles. I saw it

77
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 3: at the Chinese Theater a few months before that.

78
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 2: We saw it on the West Side at some point.

79
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, we saw it in Santa Monica.

80
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 2: Because Caitlin did. And I enjoyed the movie. But you

81
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 2: dragged every single person in your expanded universe to this movie,

82
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 2: to a screening at one point or another's, and it's

83
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 2: not to a screening, then to your personal home where yes,

84
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,760
Speaker 2: it is true, and Sammy would show it you were

85
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 2: you were working full time, unpaid You're in a full time,

86
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 2: unpaid intern for the movie. R r R.

87
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 3: This movie really spoke to me because and we'll talk

88
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 3: about its many issues later on, but there's also I

89
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 3: think a lot to love about this movie. I think

90
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,320
Speaker 3: probably most people are at least familiar with it if

91
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 3: they haven't yet seen it. It is on Netflix. The

92
00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,600
Speaker 3: version on Netflix is the Hindi dub, so it's not

93
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 3: in its original language. And then it won a Golden

94
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 3: Globe and an Oscar for Best Original Song. Yeah, so

95
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 3: I think it's like on people's radars for the most part.

96
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 2: If you're if I think even if you're like a

97
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,599
Speaker 2: casual movie fan, this has probably come across your desk

98
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 2: at some point, right, But yeah, it did feel like

99
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 2: kind of a rare And we talk about this with

100
00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 2: our guests in a bit, and I guess we're formatting

101
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 2: our episode a little bit different today where most of

102
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 2: the discussion will be with Caitlin and myself and we

103
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 2: have an amazing guest coming in later to give us

104
00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,520
Speaker 2: more historical context. And the reason I say that is

105
00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 2: because there are very few Indian movies that cross over

106
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,360
Speaker 2: into the West in the way our r R has right.

107
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 2: And I think honestly, like in preparing for this episode

108
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 2: and watching this movie through the Bechdel test lens and

109
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 2: Rebctel cast lens, rather it's just recurring. I mean, it's

110
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,599
Speaker 2: I know so little about Indian film, and yeah, I mean,

111
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,560
Speaker 2: I don't know it. It made me, It made me think,

112
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 2: made me think. And also RR is such a fun movie,

113
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 2: and if you don't know any historical context for it,

114
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 2: maybe watch it once without knowing and then listen to

115
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 2: the second half of the episode and then go back

116
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,479
Speaker 2: and watch it again and watch responsibly. But it was

117
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 2: really like because you insisted making it so like I

118
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,600
Speaker 2: was under duress, but I did. It was a it

119
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 2: was a car load of Bechdel cast luminaries because it

120
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,719
Speaker 2: was you and me went and we're the hosts of

121
00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:57,120
Speaker 2: the show.

122
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,120
Speaker 3: It's true, there's no doubt about it.

123
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: There's never been any others. And then also guest Sammy

124
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 2: Junio and Catherine Leon were also with us. Katherine and

125
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,520
Speaker 2: I had not seen it before you and Sammy had

126
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 2: seen it maybe fifty billion times at that point.

127
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds right.

128
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,560
Speaker 2: And so it was exciting, I mean, like watching people

129
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 2: react to the movie in real time, and like, I mean,

130
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 2: it was a bit scary at times, sure, but you know,

131
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 2: it was very we come to this place vibes. I

132
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 2: really liked it.

133
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 3: It's a movie that feels like a movie.

134
00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I truly. I'd never seen a I mean, I'd

135
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440
Speaker 2: seen Indian movies before, but never like a big epic

136
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 2: the way that this is. And it's I think it's

137
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 2: kind of interesting for Western audiences because we're just like

138
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 2: not used to it to have a movie that changes

139
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 2: genres several times when like it's almost it's like a

140
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 2: really pleasant creative jump scare where you're like, oh, I

141
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 2: guess you could just start singing too, like And I

142
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 2: know that that is like pretty commonplace in a lot

143
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 2: of Indian movies. And also there's such a huge diverse

144
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 2: film community because there's so many languages, there's all of

145
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 2: these different industries. But I know in the East that

146
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 2: that is a more common sort of film filmic language.

147
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 2: But for a crowd full of people in Santa Monica,

148
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 2: they're like, oh my god, it's a rom com Oh

149
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 2: my god, it's an action movie. Oh my god, it's.

150
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 3: Like buddy comedy.

151
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like there's so much happening. I looked up

152
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 2: the budget for this movie. What would you guess the

153
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 2: budget for this movie was.

154
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,240
Speaker 3: I don't have to guess, I already know.

155
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,680
Speaker 2: Oh shit, Well, it's the highest budget movie I believe

156
00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 2: ever made in India.

157
00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 3: I think that's true, Yes, but it made.

158
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 2: Me laugh at Hollywood movies because there there can be

159
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 2: such slops where it's like the last Star Wars movie

160
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,079
Speaker 2: costs like two hundred and seventy five million dollars, is

161
00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 2: like running on absolute fumes. Babu Frick truly the only

162
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,440
Speaker 2: shock of life that exists in that movie. Meanwhile, this

163
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,320
Speaker 2: movie is on all cylinders whole fucking time, and it

164
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,680
Speaker 2: was seventy two million dollars. Yeah, USD.

165
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,640
Speaker 3: It really makes you wonder what Hollywood is spending money

166
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,240
Speaker 3: on with these wildly inflated budgets.

167
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 2: I hope they paid Babu Freak one hundred million the poppit.

168
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:25,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's the third highest grossing Indian film worldwide

169
00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 3: and the second highest grossing Telugu film worldwide, the highest

170
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:36,000
Speaker 3: grossing one being another of this director's movies, Bahu Bali.

171
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 3: Oh shoot. I don't know if it's part one or

172
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,560
Speaker 3: two because there's like the beginning and then the conclusion.

173
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,000
Speaker 3: All this to say that this is a huge movie globally,

174
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,320
Speaker 3: Like you said, Jamie, one of the few movies from

175
00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 3: India that crossed over and had and has like a

176
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,280
Speaker 3: huge following in audience in the US. It also has

177
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 3: a huge following in Japan. And I'm kind of speculating here,

178
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 3: but I think something that might account for that is

179
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,320
Speaker 3: that and I'm not super familiar with a lot of anime,

180
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 3: but everyone I know who does know a lot about

181
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 3: anime and who has also seen RRR, They're like, yeah,

182
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,319
Speaker 3: RRR is just an anime feel like a live action anime.

183
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,240
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, So I think that might account for at

184
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,960
Speaker 3: least partly why it was so successful in Japan. And yeah,

185
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,920
Speaker 3: so it's like this global phenomenon.

186
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,080
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the kind of movie where it's

187
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 2: like there's fucking something for truly everyone. It's like, if

188
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,840
Speaker 2: you're not loving this movie, just like, wait twenty minutes,

189
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 2: like and yeah, probably something totally different that you might

190
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 2: like a lot better will probably be happening at that point.

191
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 2: It's pretty like, it's pretty amazing. I really hope that.

192
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 2: I mean I know that there are there are well,

193
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,200
Speaker 2: actually I don't, I don't know. I don't know what.

194
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I am very pro and now

195
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 2: we're doing this, but it still feels like it's all

196
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 2: cohesive enough. There are sometimes where we were like hmm,

197
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,640
Speaker 2: that guy just changed rather quickly. They're like, I think

198
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 2: right there. I do think that there is a moment

199
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 2: in them. And this isn't even a criticism, but there's

200
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 2: a moment in the movie where Beam goes from being

201
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 2: such a dufus to like the most bloodthirsty man in

202
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,680
Speaker 2: the world. He has a good half hour of just

203
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,480
Speaker 2: full on dufus and then he's like, actually, now I'm

204
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 2: hard as fuck for the rest of the movie, and you're.

205
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, all right. His love for Jenny made him doofy.

206
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,120
Speaker 2: He's kind of like Hillary duffing a little bit. I not,

207
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,560
Speaker 2: He's kind of just like, oh, like, you know, yeah.

208
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,800
Speaker 3: Then he's like, wait a minute, I remember the mission

209
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 3: that I'm on I have to save a little girl,

210
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 3: and then yeah, he does that.

211
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love to see Hillary Duff on

212
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 2: a rescue mission movie. It's just not what. It's just

213
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 2: not yet. At the time of this recording, Hillary Duff

214
00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,440
Speaker 2: has not headlined a blockbuster action franchise. But but never

215
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:00,880
Speaker 2: say never.

216
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,319
Speaker 3: Well, that's because we have yet to write it.

217
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:09,160
Speaker 2: She uh, I mean, my unproblematic queen. I think hard

218
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,200
Speaker 2: to say. I think, as far as we know, haven't

219
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:12,960
Speaker 2: heard a bad word about her. I just know she's

220
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,800
Speaker 2: like married a lot of hockey players, which I think

221
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,440
Speaker 2: is just like a fun habit.

222
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 3: Good for her.

223
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:21,920
Speaker 2: It's not the sort of thing you would think would

224
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,880
Speaker 2: happen more than once anyway. True.

225
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's take a quick break and then I'm

226
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:31,200
Speaker 3: back and do the recap.

227
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it.

228
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll be right back, and we are back a

229
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 3: little context before I even begin the recap. So this

230
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:52,720
Speaker 3: movie is loosely based on two Indian freedom fighters who

231
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,360
Speaker 3: I don't think ever collaborated in real life. But basically

232
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,560
Speaker 3: this movie like re envisions history and is like what

233
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,959
Speaker 3: if they did collaborate and what if they were best friends?

234
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,320
Speaker 2: And also is a very it's funny. I don't again,

235
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,160
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen a movie framed this

236
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 2: way precisely where there is a lot of and we

237
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 2: talk about this a little bit with our guest as well,

238
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 2: but there's a lot at the beginning of like, hey,

239
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,679
Speaker 2: this is these are real people, but the story is

240
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,440
Speaker 2: not real. So like you cannot get upset and you

241
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,679
Speaker 2: can't be mad, and you can't see me and you

242
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,439
Speaker 2: can't yell at me because it's not it's not real.

243
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,280
Speaker 2: It's made I made it up. It's real people, but

244
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 2: I made it up, right, Okay, And you're like it

245
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 2: almost like I don't know not to keep I just

246
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,960
Speaker 2: love to compare things because I'm judgmental, but it almost

247
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 2: reminded me. But this like doesn't happen in inglorious bastards,

248
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 2: but it almost feels like an inglorious bastard's level of like,

249
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 2: for sure none of this shit happened. Yeah, I didn't.

250
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 2: I honestly didn't look in to see if these two

251
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,200
Speaker 2: people had ever collaborated and Raju, but I also know

252
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 2: that it's like a very like overly simplistic, almost like

253
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 2: a mythic view of these figures versus being super based

254
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 2: in their actual politics or critical of any of their

255
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 2: political legacies, which we'll talk about later in the episode.

256
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's like I was honestly surprised to see

257
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 2: that they were using actual historical figures for this because

258
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 2: it feels so like mythic.

259
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, right, Yeah, because it takes again these

260
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:40,720
Speaker 3: two real life Indian revolutionaries Aluri Sita Rama Raju and

261
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,920
Speaker 3: comoram Beim and envisions them as superheroes.

262
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 2: Basically, right so, and especially after doing some research and

263
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 2: speaking with our guest, this movie is also very centered

264
00:14:53,880 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 2: on Hindu figures and is pretty exclusionary of Muslim figures,

265
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 2: which is something that we talk about in our interview

266
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 2: because I think that a lot of Westerners who just

267
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 2: like who went to this movie and got fucking pumped, like,

268
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,280
Speaker 2: we don't all have that context. So if you don't

269
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 2: have that context, don't feel bad.

270
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,520
Speaker 3: But you know, I certainly didn't the first time I

271
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,920
Speaker 3: watched it, and had to do a lot of my

272
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,440
Speaker 3: own just sort of research and digging to learn about

273
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 3: just a lot of things regarding Indian history, the current

274
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:33,080
Speaker 3: political climate of India, and how this movie fits into

275
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 3: all of that. And that's something, yeah, we'll get into.

276
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 2: Later, yet another way that the American schooling system failed us.

277
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,480
Speaker 2: I don't think I learned anything about India in school

278
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 2: for the most part, honestly, sight of British colonization that's

279
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 2: all I knew about.

280
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 3: I mean, when I was a kid, my major frame

281
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 3: of reference for India and Indian culture came from watching movies,

282
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 3: and many of those movies, yeah, were horribly racists, such

283
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,640
Speaker 3: as Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, or they

284
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 3: were told from a colonizer's perspective, like I watched The

285
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 3: Little Princess a lot, and.

286
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,000
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean, we're we're exposed to so much

287
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 2: colonizer perspective in media. And then also even with I

288
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 2: feel like I keep foreshadowing this interview because this is

289
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,760
Speaker 2: in our normal format, right, but also with r r R,

290
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 2: it's like r R is very anti colonial and anti

291
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,720
Speaker 2: imperial on its face, but also excludes a lot of

292
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 2: contexts that it's like not quite as radical as it appears.

293
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 2: And so it's so I don't know, I think we've

294
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,320
Speaker 2: been we also listeners, you'll know that we recently covered

295
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 2: The Woman King, and so we've just been like covering

296
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,120
Speaker 2: a lot of like loosely historical epics recently that are

297
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 2: obviously going to influence people's views of the time and

298
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: the people that are being discussed in the movie. I mean,

299
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: and even for us watching r R for the first

300
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,680
Speaker 2: time last year, it gave us kind of a skewed

301
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 2: view of of I mean a lot of different issues,

302
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 2: and so I just I don't know, I don't know

303
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,159
Speaker 2: what to say. I just it's it's a very tricky

304
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,840
Speaker 2: problem because it's like it shouldn't be the job of

305
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 2: movies to educate you. But it's also like willfully kind

306
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,720
Speaker 2: of ignorant to say like, well, I don't know, I

307
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 2: don't I'm I'm just I'm just a creative goofy goof

308
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 2: messing around, and you're.

309
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 3: Like, well, but but you also kind of have a

310
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 3: responsibility to represent things responsibly.

311
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 2: Right, And it doesn't mean that every movie has to

312
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 2: be a documentary like but I don't know, uh, complicated,

313
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 2: ongoing discussion. I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of

314
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 2: it and the changes will be permanent.

315
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we will fix society because of it.

316
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 2: Surely, this isn't an unknowable question anyways, So let's talk. Okay,

317
00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: So for this first chunk we are going to be

318
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 2: talking about the movie and the story, and then we

319
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 2: will return to the historical context because otherwise my brain

320
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 2: will explode.

321
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,359
Speaker 3: Yes, so here's the recap. The movie is very long.

322
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,200
Speaker 3: It's not as long as Titanic, No, it's ten minutes shorter.

323
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 2: But they and at the theater, they give you a

324
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,200
Speaker 2: they give you an intermission, which I think is so fun.

325
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 2: I love that. Yes, oh felt good.

326
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 3: So the movie is very long, and I'm going to

327
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:31,199
Speaker 3: leave out some details and characters, but this is the

328
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,639
Speaker 3: gist of it. We open on a village in the

329
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 3: Adela bad forest in India. It's the nineteen twenties. The

330
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,360
Speaker 3: GND people who live in the village are playing reluctant

331
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 3: host to Governor Scott and his wife, Lady Buxton, whose.

332
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 2: Name is Kathy Too.

333
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

334
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, I'm sensitive to Kathy slander, but

335
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,920
Speaker 2: this Kathy is the worst Kathy in the world.

336
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,879
Speaker 3: She's really bad. So Governor Scott makes it seem like

337
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 3: his last name is Scott, but it's Scott Buxton, so

338
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 3: Scott is his first name. So that would be if

339
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,440
Speaker 3: people were like, oh, Governor Jamie, that's.

340
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 2: So her president Joe, Yeah what, But.

341
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 3: Everyone calls him Governor Scott, so that's great his name.

342
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 3: So they are British imperialist colonizers. A young girl, Malay,

343
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,879
Speaker 3: is painting skin art on Lady Buxton. She's singing a

344
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: song and Lady Buxton decides that she wants to keep Malay,

345
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 3: so they abduct her from the village. Her mother is

346
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 3: obviously crying and devastated.

347
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 2: That first, I mean, yeah, it's absolutely brutal. She's kidnapped,

348
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 2: She's kidnapped right in front of her, and then her mom.

349
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 2: I thought the first time I saw the movie that

350
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: her mother was killed, but fortunately she's not killed, but

351
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,720
Speaker 2: she was her I mean a yeah. In the opening sequence,

352
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 2: there is a young girl who is abducted and another

353
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 2: woman who is beat brutally. Yes, so right out the gate,

354
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 2: it's very intense. Also, I just wanted to shout out

355
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 2: the young actor who plays Molly's name is Twinkle Sharma,

356
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,880
Speaker 2: which is my favorite name I've ever heard. Love that

357
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 2: like Twinkle. I love it. I love it, I love her.

358
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: Will continue to follow this young star's career, We.

359
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 3: Sure will, so we see this devastating opening sequence. Then

360
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 3: we cut to the outskirts of Delhi, where we meet

361
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 3: Rama Raju played by Ramcharan, a police officer working for

362
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 3: the British government who is tasked with arresting a protester.

363
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 3: We then see a long sequence of him beating his

364
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 3: way through a crowd of hundreds of protesters and eventually

365
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 3: reaching and arresting the guy.

366
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 2: And it's like, it is, it is why, it's it's wild,

367
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: it is really you. It's hard to describe how many

368
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: things happen, because so many things happen.

369
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, if we didn't make this clear yet, this movie

370
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 3: is like everything is dialed up to an eleven. Yes,

371
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 3: the action sequences, the there's also almost constant music happening

372
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 3: and like.

373
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 2: And it's big music.

374
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, big epic music.

375
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: As musicians, the music big.

376
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 3: The music is big. We are scholars. It's one of

377
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 3: my favorite scores of all time. It's such a beautiful

378
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 3: arrangement of music. But yeah, everything is just like cranked

379
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,719
Speaker 3: all the way up in this movie. There's no subtlety whatsoever.

380
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 3: Everything is just like.

381
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: There's no boom boom boom, there's no rest. So if

382
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 2: something sounds really intense.

383
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 3: It is. That's what it's like.

384
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, huge, huge fight scene to establish the strength

385
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: and will of ram Right and also that he is

386
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: working for the British at the beginning of the movie.

387
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 3: Yes, and we will come to understand Rom's particular motivation

388
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 3: for being an officer later on. And even though he

389
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 3: like accomplishes this like Banana's feat of like beating his

390
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 3: way through this crowd and arresting this person, he is

391
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 3: still not promoted to special officer, which upsets him so

392
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 3: much that he punches a hole in a punching bag. Oh,

393
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 3: because he really wants to be special Officer for again,

394
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 3: reasons we will understand later. Then we see a meeting

395
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 3: where this guy Edward, who is Governor Scott's right hand man.

396
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 3: He is being advised to return Malay, the girl who

397
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 3: was taken from the village, because there is a man

398
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 3: from her tribe who will stop at nothing to hunt

399
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: down her captors and find her.

400
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: Oh. And then there's a really thrilling intro shot unlike

401
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: anything you've ever seen.

402
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 3: Just oh.

403
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: Shot, it's really good.

404
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 3: Yes, we meet camaraan Beam played by Nti rama Ro

405
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 3: Junior aka NTR Junior, while he's chasing wolves and tigers

406
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 3: in the jungle to capture them for reasons that will

407
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 3: also become clear later. And then Beam heads to Delhi

408
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 3: where he and his brother Lachu and a couple of

409
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: their friends are trying to figure out how to get

410
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: into the palace to rescue Maley. They notice this woman Jenny,

411
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 3: who lives in the palace, and she seems nice.

412
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 2: So Jenny's whole thing is every I mean. And again

413
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: it's like part of this really broad storytelling of like

414
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: she is the one British nice she's the nice colonizer.

415
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah you like her? Okay, I guess no, we like her.

416
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 2: She's Governor Scott's niece. But sometimes she's like, hey stop that.

417
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

418
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: That's literally the extent of her allyship is hey cut

419
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: that out, don't do it. Yeah, that's how we meet her.

420
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: She's saying, hey, cut that out.

421
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

422
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 2: When an officer is beating a man for no reason,

423
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: she says, hey cut that out.

424
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 3: Yes, And then so Beam is like a woga who's that.

425
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 3: She's pretty and she's nice, and they figure that if

426
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 3: they can befriend her, she could be their ticket into

427
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: the palace. Meanwhile, Edward and Lady Buxton are like, hm,

428
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: I guess we should be worried about this guy who

429
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: is going to come for the girl, but we also

430
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: know nothing about him, his name, what he looks like,

431
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 3: anything like that. But whoever is able to capture this

432
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 3: man will be promoted to special officer. So Rom is like,

433
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 3: I'll do it. I want to be special officer. So

434
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 3: he and his uncle figure that this guy will probably

435
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 3: be going to revolutionary meetings, So they go to one

436
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 3: such meeting, and sure enough they meet Beam's brother Lachu,

437
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: and so Rom and his uncle pretend to be Lachu's ally,

438
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: but Lachu figures out that Rom is an undercover police officer,

439
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 3: so he runs. There's a chase and Lachu escapes into

440
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: a huge crowd nearby. A train is like leaking oil everywhere.

441
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 3: It explodes and derails.

442
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: And there's a little boy in the middle of the waters.

443
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 2: It's like the steaks are always like a million guy high.

444
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: This little kid is going to explode if Rom and

445
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: Beam don't become friends right now, right.

446
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 3: So what happens is there's this little boy who's about

447
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: to die. No one seems to want to risk their

448
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 3: life to save him, except for Beam and Rom. So

449
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 3: they team up, not realizing that the other one is

450
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 3: their enemy. They save the boy, and this is the

451
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 3: beginning of them becoming best friends, because we get this

452
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: montage of something.

453
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: That's usually reserved for like falling in love, like falling

454
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 2: in love, you know, but it's just like them having

455
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: a fun time together. They're eating, they're going on little

456
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 2: day trips.

457
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: Oh, they're riding horses and motorcycles. Oh they're frolicking through field.

458
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 3: Oh they're playing tug of war.

459
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: Pretty nice. Oh.

460
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: Beam is doing squats with Rom on his shoulders. Also,

461
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 3: while this is happening, there's a song playing called Dosti

462
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 3: and the lyrics are like, Wow, it's pretty wild that

463
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: these two guys have become friends and that they don't

464
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 3: know that they're actually enemies. This is probably gonna end

465
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: in bloodshed and betrayal. Huh.

466
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: And we're like, hold on, what I'm kidding? I do

467
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: I do love and I know that this isn't this happened,

468
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: but it's just like the exposition montage was really delivering

469
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,239
Speaker 2: for me. I loved it.

470
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a Greek chorus kind of thing. Because

471
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: also this movie is like a Greek tragedy. It's just

472
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: it's everything. So one day Ram helps Beam meet Jenny.

473
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 3: We will talk about this meet cute later. There's no time.

474
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: It's egregious. Yeah, this movie is a lot of things,

475
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: particularly interested in women. Nope, it is not.

476
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 3: But basically the movie becomes a rom com for a while.

477
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: And a half hour.

478
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: So yeah, Beam meets Jenny and spends the afternoon with her,

479
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 3: and even though they don't speak the same language, they

480
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 3: hit it off and she invites him to an upc

481
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 3: party So Beam and rom get all dressed up and

482
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 3: go to this big fancy party in a scene that

483
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: was giving me because there are some Titanic parallels. But

484
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 3: there's a scene where like Rom is giving Beam a

485
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 3: little makeover and like putting him in a suit because

486
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: he's like, what are you gonna wear to the party?

487
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: And Beam is like this and he's like, no, you

488
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 3: have to wear a suit. And it's very much like

489
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: Molly Brown being like Jack, what are you gonna wear

490
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 3: to dinner?

491
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: And you shine up like a new penny y. Yeah,

492
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: that was that was very sweet. And then they got

493
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: to the party and they look great.

494
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: Oh, they look so great.

495
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: And now they're at the big Colonizer party and yeah,

496
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: we're about to have a dance off. This is the

497
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: iconic Oscar winning song.

498
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: Yes, because there's this British guy at the party who's

499
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: super racist and he's like, you don't know anything about

500
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: art or finesse or dance, and they're like, have you

501
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: ever heard of natu? And then they do the na

502
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 3: to na to song and dance and they win an

503
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: Oscar about it, or rather, mm Kiravani does because he's

504
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: the one who composed the music. For Flim.

505
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: That scene is so just exciting, it's so good and

506
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: also especially like I don't know seeing it for the

507
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: first time, you don't see it coming, like you're like, oh,

508
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: this is going to be like a rom com, comedy

509
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: of manners, more stuff with like Beam and Jenny. But

510
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: then it's like, no, it's a huge dance number. It's

511
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: it's gigantic. It's just like so terrible. It's my favorite scene,

512
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: no contest. It rocks the best.

513
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: Jenny also loves it and she's like, wow, Beam, it

514
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: was so cool when you danced. Do you want to

515
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 3: come to the palace with me? So he goes to

516
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: the palace where he finds Molly and she's locked up

517
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: behind bars. She's treated as a prisoner and Beam is like,

518
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: I can't rescue you now, but don't worry, I'll come

519
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: back for you. So he and his friends plan their

520
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 3: siege of the palace, but oh no, Ram has captured

521
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: Lachu and he's like, where's your brother, still not realizing

522
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: that the man who Ram is looking for is his

523
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: own best friend Beam. Then we cut to Ram's home

524
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: village where we meet his lady love Cita, and all

525
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: of the people are like when is rom coming back?

526
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: He's been gone for years and she's a flaw. He's

527
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,719
Speaker 3: a flop and he doesn't even remember you. And she's like,

528
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

529
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: But Cita is like she's like Christ like in her

530
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: faith and patience in her fiance. And I mean, I know,

531
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: like everyone in this movie is a huge star, but

532
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: I think she in particular. I want to make sure

533
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: that I'm saying her name right Alia Bot. She's like

534
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: a huge, huge star, and I feel like she gets

535
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: like the star reveal shot when she's because you turn

536
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: around and then there's like a pause for applause and

537
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: she's great. I just I would just wish that we

538
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: had more. I mean, I don't know, I don't know.

539
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: I just I was like, Wow, she's so virtuous, awesome.

540
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's really just sort of passively waiting around for

541
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 3: her fiance.

542
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like, Wow. If I was Cita, I

543
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: would be getting a nosebleed fucking daily, being like probably

544
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: like walking around being like he's probably dead, Like.

545
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 3: I'm gonna move on and kiss someone else. Oh god,

546
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: that's what that would be me.

547
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: That's see, we're different. I would be walking around having

548
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: a panic attack.

549
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 3: But she'd be like, oh, you've been gone for three days,

550
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: Well it's time to move on find another.

551
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: Lover, I feel like, but she's doing neither of those things.

552
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: She's just like, no, I believe everything is great because

553
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: he's the greatest and and I'd be like, he's probably

554
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: cheating on me. Wow, I'm stuck back here in Floptown there.

555
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: So back in the city, Lachu throws a poisonous snake

556
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: onto Rom and he gets bitten, and so Rom is

557
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 3: like stumbling around and dying. Beam finds him and saves

558
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: his life and then reveals his true identity to Rom,

559
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: and Rom is still like actively dying, so he can't

560
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: do anything about it. But he's like, oh my god,

561
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 3: my best friend is the guy who I've been hunting

562
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: down this whole time. What do I do? And then

563
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: he recovers because Beam has saved him, and he's punching

564
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: his punching bag some more and he's upset. Then it's

565
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: the night of this big celebration to honor Governor Scott,

566
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: which is when Beam and his friends unleash an attack

567
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 3: so they can rescue Malay. They crash into the party

568
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: and let a bunch of animals loose, including that tiger

569
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 3: from the beginning. There's just like utter chaos as all

570
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: these animals are running around.

571
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: It is another I was like, because we like Hollywood

572
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: movies have so many badly cgied animals, these are well

573
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: cgied animals.

574
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: They look good. They look pretty good. I would say

575
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: it's not the best I've seen.

576
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: I mean, no, cgi animal looks amazing, but like it's

577
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: certainly for Paddington, it's I don't know, we can't get

578
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: into this today. I think Paddington's looks a little scary sometimes,

579
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: but but I mean it's certainly doing don'nuts around like

580
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: the Lion King reboot and shit like that. But you're like, oh,

581
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: like you can't look at.

582
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: It horrifying looking so all this chaos is happening. But

583
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: before Beam can reach Malay Rom shows up to arrest him,

584
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: and Beam is like, what the fuck, you're a cop,

585
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: you're my enemy, And then they fight each other for

586
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: a long time. They're beating each other up, and then

587
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: it culminates in Beam being captured, which is where we

588
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 3: get the intermission or the interval. Then Ram gets promoted

589
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: to special officer because he captured Beam, just like he

590
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 3: always wanted, And then we see a flashback with Ram's backstory. So,

591
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: when Ram was a child, his father was training their

592
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 3: whole village to fight back against the British, but they

593
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 3: don't have real weapons. So the reason that Ram wanted

594
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 3: to be a special officer so badly is that it

595
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,479
Speaker 3: would give him access to a lot of guns, which

596
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: he would basically steal and distribute among his village. And

597
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: he had made this promise to his father that he

598
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 3: would supply everyone in the village with a gun. Because

599
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 3: one day, while Ram is still a child, the British

600
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 3: Army raids their village and kills Ram's whole family. So

601
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: he sees like his mother and his little brother and

602
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: his father killed in front of him.

603
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: It's horrible and it's also very mythic in the way

604
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: it's presented as.

605
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: Well, for sure. Yeah. Back to the present, Rom is

606
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: feeling very conflicted because he wants to help his people

607
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: and his village, but he realizes he's hurting people along

608
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: the way, including his new best friend. Then there's a

609
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 3: scene where Rom has to flog Beam publicly, and Governor

610
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 3: Scott makes everyone come to watch because he wants to

611
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 3: make an example of Beam, and during this beating, Beam

612
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: sings a song that empowers the crowd to riot and

613
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: revolt against all the British soldiers, after which Rom realizes

614
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 3: he needs to help Beam escape, especially after Beam is

615
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: sentenced to death by hanging. So Rom orchestrates this rescue

616
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: mission for Beam and Malay and they successfully get away.

617
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: Though Beam doesn't know that Ram helped him, he still

618
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 3: thinks that Ram is his enemy. So then Beam and

619
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 3: Malay go into hiding because the entire British military is

620
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 3: out looking for them, and they happen to cross paths

621
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 3: with Sita, Ram's lady Love, who tells Beam about Ram's

622
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 3: grand plan to become a special officer so that he

623
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: can supply his village with weapons so they can revolt

624
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: against British colonialism, but that he kind of lost his

625
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 3: way and betrayed his best friend, but then he got

626
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: caught and now he's going to be executed, and Baim

627
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: is like, damn okay, he was helping me. I have

628
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: to go save him. So Bam goes to the barracks

629
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 3: where Ram is being held prisoner breaks him out. There's

630
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 3: another like extended fight sequence where they're fighting their way

631
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 3: through the British soldiers with Ram on Beam's shoulders because

632
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: his legs were badly beaten. They escape the barracks and

633
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 3: go into the woods. More British soldiers come. There's another

634
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 3: long fight sequence where Rom and Beam kill all of them.

635
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 3: Beam is throwing a motorcycle around, Ram is firing arrows

636
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 3: with grenades attached to them.

637
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and at this point, as we'll talk about in

638
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 2: a bit, Ram looks like the mythic way that Ram

639
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: is presented and like they're start or no, this is

640
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 2: a little bit before that happens, right.

641
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 3: So after they escape the barracks, Beam yes, because he

642
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 3: knows medicine, he treats Ram's wounds. And then there's like

643
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: these like orange flags nearby this place of warship. So

644
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 3: he like takes the flags and the bow and arrow

645
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 3: from this like Rama god statue and then basically styles

646
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: Ram to look like this and do God. And then

647
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: they fight the people in the woods, and then they

648
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: are like, all right, bitch, it's time to kill Scott.

649
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: So they head to Governor Scott's palace. They steal a

650
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: bunch of guns for Rom's village. They destroy the palace

651
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 3: and kill Lady Buxton and Governor Scott.

652
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: And they kill And it's a great plant and payoff

653
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: moment when they kill Governor Scott, because there was this

654
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: whole long, evil speech that he seems to make all the.

655
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 3: Time, all the time about the value of a bullet.

656
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: Yes, which you can imagine. I thought that that was

657
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: kind of a fun touch of like most fucking evil

658
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: colonial blowhards like that have like one speech they know

659
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: how to give, but then they're always like hot, like god.

660
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: So anyways, they give the speech to him and then

661
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: they fucking yeah kill him. Boing boying.

662
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 3: It's very cathartic.

663
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: It is very very exciting, and if you have no

664
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: context for the rest of the movie, you're like, wow,

665
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: this is a radical movie, right, and then you read

666
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: a book and then you're like, oh, oh wait, no

667
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: it's not. But it's still a good moment. It's a

668
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 2: good moment, yes, indeed.

669
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: So then, having defeated the villain, Beam and Rom return home.

670
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 3: Rom is reunited with Tita, Jenny is there for some reason,

671
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: Malay is returned to her mother, and the movie ends

672
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 3: with a big song and dance number that pays tribute

673
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 3: to a bunch of Indian Revolutionaries, although.

674
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: Specifics there's a lot of omissions. Yes, and the director

675
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: as as Russian movie, is in the conclusion like he

676
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: is in the final scene, and so it's like this

677
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: fourth wall break that is sort of like stating with

678
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,479
Speaker 2: the thesis of the movie was, which is I guess

679
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: when you think about it, a little bit pretty nationalistic.

680
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: And then it's like, not only is that there's like

681
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: the big thesis song, but also the director of the

682
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: movie like joins in which again I wouldn't like, I

683
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 2: wouldn't hate that if Martin Scorsese started doing that. At

684
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: the end he comes out, he's like, what'd you think, Yeah, awesome.

685
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 3: And then we'd be like, yes, clap, clap, cheer, cheer,

686
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: I love it.

687
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: It's like those awkward I feel like it's only happened

688
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: since movie theaters have been opened, but every once in

689
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: a while you'll go see a movie and then it's

690
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: just like Margot Robbie being like, Hi, thanks for coming

691
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: to Babylon at the movie theater. Enjoy the movie, and

692
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: you're like, what the fuck was that? I do? Do that?

693
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 3: Just yeah, So it's like we know, I mean in

694
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 3: the same way that why is Nicole Kidman doing an

695
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 3: advertisement for the theater that you're already in and about

696
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 3: to see.

697
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: For the culture.

698
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 3: It's for the culture, and we come to this place

699
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: for that culture.

700
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: But those little flips that are like barely produced and

701
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: clearly in the middle of a press junk at day

702
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: and they look like they want to die. I'm like,

703
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 2: this is not getting me excited for the movie. I forget.

704
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 2: There was like a director too that was like welcome

705
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: back to them, and you're like, oh my god, just

706
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: start the movie enough.

707
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,959
Speaker 3: Yes, So let's say, well that's our yes, and let's

708
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: take another break and we'll come back to discuss. And

709
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 3: we are back and we are about to include our

710
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: segment that we did with our special guest, who will

711
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 3: introduce in a moment. But we just wanted to kind

712
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 3: of give a little bit more context for the production

713
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: of the movie. So it was written and directed by

714
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 3: ss Raja Mouley aka SSR. So screenplay by SSR, Story

715
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 3: by vj Andre Presad who is sa are his dad dad.

716
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 3: They collaborate a lot.

717
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: With Okay, fathers and sons. Yeah, and so SSR look

718
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: hot topic these days. He's an Eppo baby, Folks, His

719
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: dad is a very well regarded screenwriter in India who's

720
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: been working since the eighties, I believe, and now they

721
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: very often will collaborate together, including on this. So sometimes

722
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: movies are about fathers and sons, including this one. Other

723
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: times movies are made by fathers and sons.

724
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: And often they are made for fathers and sons.

725
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: Those are kind of those tend to be who movies

726
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: are made for. So you know, good for you guys,

727
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 2: you fuckos. But no, very very famous, not just director,

728
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: but from a famous movie family.

729
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: Yes, the two main stars, Ramcharan and Antir Junior are

730
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: also from like acting dynasties.

731
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: Yes, well, as is the actor who plays Sita. Right, Like,

732
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 2: there's so much I mean, it's this is just entertainment

733
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: in general. But and how power works, right but yeah,

734
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: we just because we talk about it in the guest segment.

735
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 2: As if you already know who made the movie, what

736
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: you need to know is that S. S. Roja Movie

737
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: is a very successful film director who collaborates frequently with

738
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: his father. His politics. He doesn't like to talk about politics,

739
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: which usually means something and and he makes these I mean,

740
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 2: especially in this phase of his career. It seems like

741
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: he makes big, big blockbuster movies for sure.

742
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 3: And with that, let's bring on our guest, who is

743
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 3: a writer critic. You've seen their byelines in Vox, Panel

744
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 3: by Panel, Polygon, among others, and they were the author

745
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 3: of a particular piece in Vox that we found and

746
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,479
Speaker 3: really loved entitled R R R is an incredible action

747
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 3: movie with seriously troubling politics. It's reveish Babu. Hello, Hello, Hello,

748
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 3: thank you so much for being here.

749
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 4: Happy to be here, Thank you for having me.

750
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: Oh, it's our pleasure, so pleasure.

751
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, okay, I feel like I'm contributing.

752
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: Yes, tell us, you're just kind of general thoughts on

753
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: the film? Are are are? What's your relationship with it?

754
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 4: Yeah? So the film is, you know, the latest entry

755
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 4: by the filmmaker South Indian filmmaker from Natalia wood industry,

756
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 4: which is, you know, the Deli wood language speaking cinema

757
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 4: industry of India. It's the latest film by the biggest

758
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 4: filmmaker of that industry who is now also India's film naker.

759
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 4: And I grew up with his films, like I think

760
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 4: I remember watching his first movie as a kid, and

761
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 4: I've kind of always known his films like I watched

762
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 4: everyone as it came out because like my father would

763
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 4: make me watch them, and so they were like a

764
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 4: thing that I always pretty much knew. And so it's

765
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 4: been a weird, interesting experience to watch, like the guy

766
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 4: your dad talks about at your home suddenly become like

767
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 4: the guy everybody and their mom talks about, you know, globally.

768
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 4: That it's kind of a weird experience, but it's been interesting.

769
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 4: So this is the latest film he's made, and it's

770
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 4: kind of like the biggest explosive porsion of what he does,

771
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 4: and my relationship to it is it's complicated, is definitely

772
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 4: the word I would use, because it's a film that

773
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 4: is a great, big spectacle that works as a big

774
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 4: action spectacle, but is also reflective of all the flaws

775
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 4: and like the limitations of the filmmaker and the kind

776
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 4: of space that remoiches from end. So there's a weird

777
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 4: sit there that is kind of like, yeah, this is fun.

778
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 4: But like I remember walking out of theater, I had

779
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 4: a great time at the theater. I went to watch

780
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 4: my dad and it was like it was a blast

781
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 4: to watch, but I sat there with it not in

782
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 4: my chest. Throughout, Like even as I walked that, I

783
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 4: was like, there was that not until I actually sat

784
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 4: down a road it read about it. It was kind of

785
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 4: like it was a weird experience where I just untangled

786
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 4: that not and kind of like think about it. So

787
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 4: that's kind of where even wedding but it came from, right.

788
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: I think that that's so because this was very much

789
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: my entry point to his catalog. Reading your work and

790
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: others work on just their relationship with this director in

791
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: addition to this movie and sort of all of the

792
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 2: baggage that comes with it is so interesting because I think, like,

793
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: as you have witnessed, it's sort of like in Western

794
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: movie culture, it's like, oh, you know, it's like a secret, like, oh,

795
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 2: you've seen this movie that is one of the hugest

796
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: movies in the world, But here it's sort of relegated

797
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 2: to like really enthusiastic letterboxed users filling a movie theater

798
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 2: on the West Side. And so honestly, when I first

799
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 2: saw this movie, I did not know that the story

800
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 2: was rooted in any sort of political ideology at all

801
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:19,919
Speaker 2: until I read your.

802
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: Work and just to speak to your kind of complicated

803
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: relationship with the movie, that's also, like so many of

804
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 3: the movies we cover on this podcast, especially ones that

805
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 3: we grew up with or have some kind of nostalgic

806
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 3: attachment to or love in any way, we sort of

807
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 3: have to reconcile that, like, oh yeah, it was a

808
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: really entertaining movie to watch, but oh no, there's all

809
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 3: these things that you have to unravel.

810
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 4: Art isn't always once, and that's internal struggle for sure.

811
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 3: So we've been kind of hinting at this sort of

812
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 3: political and cultural context that again if you're not pretty

813
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 3: intimately familiar with already, which like Jamie, I was not

814
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 3: either I only I mean, I of course know of

815
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: the caste system in India, but I don't know or

816
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 3: I didn't know really any of the nuances of it.

817
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 3: I didn't There's just a lot of things about it

818
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: that I didn't fully comprehend. And also it was only

819
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: very recently that I learned about the far right like

820
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: Hindu centric government that exists in India right now, and

821
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: how that informs quite a bit of media and like

822
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 3: there's a lot of like propaganda and a lot of

823
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 3: people are calling RRR like Hindu castist propaganda. So and

824
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 3: this is what your piece. The writing that you've done

825
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 3: about this movie is largely about that. So we're just

826
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 3: curious kind of your thoughts on all that.

827
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 4: Regarding the cast thing, you know, the guy and get

828
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 4: at the white guy, and get at who's like I

829
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 4: would have voted for Obama a third time or whatever. Yeah,

830
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 4: like that kind of vibes where people are like Obama won,

831
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 4: Racism is defeated, it's over, and like people act like that,

832
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 4: but like reality is, it's like absolutely not. Castism is

833
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 4: kind of life everywhere, and castism is built into a

834
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 4: little sect of like the white things work. So that's

835
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 4: kind of how that works. But regarding the movie itself,

836
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 4: it's genesis is in the very specific who speaking region

837
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 4: in South India weren't there was one state. It was

838
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 4: called entrepredaesh Andra is the place Brebace essentially means place

839
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 4: or state andreprebaish And what happened was a few years

840
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 4: back in the mid twenty tens, they divided the state

841
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 4: into you know, a state called Andra and like you

842
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 4: had under the state formed called Langhana, which was a

843
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 4: long thought, you know struggle like that state being formed

844
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 4: was a long movement and one of the he figures

845
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 4: out that sort of movement was comer Empin, who's you know,

846
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 4: one of the figures in the movie, and the other

847
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 4: figure in the movie, Sidramaraju, is like the under figure.

848
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 4: So essentially, the movie, as Roger Mole tells, it, began

849
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 4: with the idea of watching this one state become two

850
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 4: states boats speaking essentially the same language but like the

851
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: same language but like in different dialects for the most part,

852
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 4: and trying to make a movie to kind of like

853
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 4: showcase their unity essentially. And so Flangana's symbol being pen

854
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 4: and like under symbol being ram and they're sort of

855
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 4: like imagined constructive brotherhood on screen as a way of

856
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 4: like symbolizing that sort of imagined friendship and unity of

857
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 4: the states. And this is right through sort of like

858
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 4: you know, Roger Molly's big sort of mythic influences, where

859
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 4: like he grew up reading you know, some directors, like

860
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 4: if you're in America, you grew up reading I don't know,

861
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 4: some Spider Man comics, Orman comics or stuff like that,

862
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 4: right because those are American pop culture. But like for

863
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 4: someone like Roger Mole, he up on comics which are

864
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 4: like essentially Amara means immortal ship, Throm means you know,

865
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 4: picture Kata means stories, so immortal picture stories. He grew

866
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 4: up on those comics, which are largely about retellings of

867
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 4: like Hindu mythology and like stories about gods and like

868
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 4: demi gods and figures like that. So those kind of

869
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 4: informed his work and so and that's you see that

870
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 4: evidently as prior film. Most evidently they're inbopability, which is

871
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 4: two parts and it was a huge thing a few

872
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 4: years back. But you've also see here where like his

873
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 4: mythic influences and like all of those films are into

874
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 4: the film where you know, Ram is framed at the

875
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 4: end of the movie, like the mythic Ram god, right,

876
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 4: you know, and Pim is like almost framed in the

877
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 4: context of like the films like Pen from the Mahavaratha.

878
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of stuff like that where and

879
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 4: it's like you see his influences and the way the

880
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 4: film works is essentially it's a big rallying cry. It's

881
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 4: like celebratory and nationalistic. But the problem is in the

882
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 4: way it is. See this is interesting because like when

883
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 4: you see a movie like this, like you when the

884
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 4: West first discovered RRR, A response was largely kind of

885
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 4: like almost built in, like a sort of hyperbolic reaction like,

886
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 4: oh my god, this is the greatest nope I've ever seen.

887
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 4: I've never seen anything like this. There's a tiger and like,

888
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like over the top response, right.

889
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 4: And also there's the kind of like and I think

890
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 4: that there's a certain I understand that on a certain

891
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 4: level because like when you look at Call of You,

892
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 4: what what all of these movies are made in is

893
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 4: a sort of like white Western hegemony, and so everything

894
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 4: kind of exists and comes out through that mechanism, and

895
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 4: that machine means certain kinds of films just don't get made.

896
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 4: There are films that do sometimes get made are kind

897
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 4: of exceptions. So when you see something where like you know,

898
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 4: the bridish of like the white people are kind of

899
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 4: largely twitted, like the way you know, I say, Indiana Jones,

900
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 4: Sweet's the Nazis, they're like, oh my god, this is

901
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 4: so cool. This is kind of like radical and like

902
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 4: all of that because like this is anti colonialness, anti imperialists.

903
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 4: But the reality is when you look at post colonials

904
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 4: sieties and push bolomul nations. What happens is like when

905
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 4: they're taken over and inflicted with all of that they're

906
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 4: inflicted with across time, and when the oppressor is kind

907
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 4: of like left and there's the independence, what's left is

908
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 4: the sense of like there's a kind of whole of

909
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 4: like what we were, what we became and we aren't,

910
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 4: and what we are going to be, and so the

911
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 4: sense of a lost past, but a lost what we

912
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 4: could have been that is sought and seen. And so

913
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 4: a lot of the times it's with stuff like that

914
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 4: that nationalism is built. And when there's when you're a

915
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 4: colony and when you're oppressed, that sort of nationalism is

916
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: a very powerful revolutionary radical act to like you know,

917
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 4: fight against the oppressor. But after the oppressor's gone in

918
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 4: like decades have passed on and like it's almost been

919
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 4: a century, right, that nationalism can sort of take on

920
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 4: a different sort of flavor or fervor, and like it

921
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 4: can feel of a different because like at that point

922
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 4: it's kind of all internal mechanicians and politics, and so

923
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 4: that's kind of what you're dealing with. Because like the

924
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 4: Hindu nationalism and hindusw it animates a lot of the

925
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 4: stuff that you see now about India and rooted in India.

926
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 4: It goes back to the early nineteenth century when India

927
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 4: was still occupied by the British, where in like you know,

928
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 4: the Hindu right wing figures like literally went over to

929
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 4: like Mussolini's Ghetaly and like toured all of that fascist

930
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 4: nonsense and we're like, yeah, you know, this is pretty

931
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 4: fucking cool. We should like we should get into this.

932
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 4: And so it's kind of like taken from that and

933
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 4: like combining it with like the worst aspects of like

934
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 4: old school Hinduism and you get this very right wing

935
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 4: ideology which forms the RSS, which is a stupid death

936
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 4: cult of like fascist idiots. And that cult is what

937
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 4: the members of that cult is the person that killed

938
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 4: and shot Gandhi and so that cult got banned very

939
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 4: early on for ages. But later on in the twentieth century,

940
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 4: what happened is essentially you have figures like I think

941
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 4: it was exactly the nineteen eighties when like the RSS

942
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 4: kind of came back and like you know, made a

943
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 4: kind of big thing, and they made a party called

944
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 4: the BJP, and then the BGP would slowly grow and

945
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:11,919
Speaker 4: you know, now it's kind of it kind of runs

946
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 4: the country much like the RSS ones everything. It's they're

947
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 4: bigger than ever, and it's kind of a distressing affair. Yeah,

948
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 4: back to the movie, it's kind of is it's very

949
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 4: much a status pro movie in the sense of like

950
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,720
Speaker 4: the most average you know MCU or like an American

951
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 4: blockbuster is kind of like it. You don't go to

952
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 4: these movies for radical politics, right because, like in the

953
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 4: context of a film like this, even though for a

954
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 4: Western audience this might seem radical because it's like, you know,

955
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 4: all the white people are not kind of great, and

956
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like anti colonial, anti imperialist,

957
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 4: the reality in the context of post colonial societies is

958
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 4: like when you look at a film like this, being

959
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 4: anti imperialist and anti colonialist can still very much be

960
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 4: a conservative position as opposed to a radical position when

961
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 4: you're dealing with liasis, where like naturalism and all of

962
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 4: that is used to your writing purses.

963
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 3: Right because again, like on the surface, just for like

964
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 3: a you know, average American viewer watching this movie, it's like, Wow,

965
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: here's a big, fun spectacle with music and dancing and

966
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 3: over the top action and it's got these themes of

967
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 3: anti imperialism and anti colonialism and also friendship and the

968
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 3: British people are.

969
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 2: The bad guys. Friends defeat imperialism together, right, Yeah.

970
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's just like again, the first time I

971
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 3: saw it, I was just like, woohoo, I'm cheering in

972
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 3: the theater. I'm having so much fun. And then, you know,

973
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 3: I started to do some digging about the like context

974
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 3: from which this movie comes out, and as you outline

975
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 3: in your vox piece and there's another piece you wrote.

976
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the words that you use in your

977
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: vox face that really stuck with me is that this

978
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: movie decontextualizes a lot of history, which I mean seems

979
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 2: absolutely true, and also does it under sort of false pretenses,

980
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: because if you don't know the history, it does seem

981
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 2: like either this is made up if you're not familiar

982
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: with the figures, or you're receiving some sort of grand

983
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: historical epic context. Because we were. We just covered the

984
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 2: Woman King as well, and there's a not a similar issue,

985
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: but a historical figure who is represented as being abolitionist

986
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 2: who absolutely was not, but that's how it's presented in

987
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: the movie. And unfortunately, you know, and this is like

988
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: an issue with historical epics across everything, but that's often

989
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 2: about as far as people will, you know, take an interest.

990
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: And so this movie breaking through with this specific viewpoint.

991
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 2: It's a bit scary.

992
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 3: Because you talk in your piece about how there's a

993
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: lot of Indian media that again it's coming out in

994
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 3: this pro Hindu is it pronounced? Which is this political

995
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 3: ideology that is like reinforced by militant groups that's just

996
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 3: like pro Hindu anti Islam.

997
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 4: That it is the idea that it is the idea

998
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 4: that India is essentially a Hindu state and should always

999
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 4: be a Hindu state.

1000
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 3: And it's kind of just it's repellent, right which and

1001
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 3: it's and it's leading to, you know, extreme oppression and

1002
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 3: violence toward Muslim people who live in India. And then

1003
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 3: it's also reinforcing the caste system, which is, you know,

1004
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 3: a very elitist and oppressive system.

1005
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 4: Idea of a hierarchy, which is kind of always there.

1006
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 4: And it's interesting. It's like you look at this film

1007
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 4: and because we're you know, we're we are on the

1008
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 4: Bechtel cast So let's talk about that aspect of it.

1009
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 4: I'm not sure this movie actually past the adult test

1010
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 4: because like this movie is rife with a male centrism

1011
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 4: that is like very indicative of Roger Mally's work, and like,

1012
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 4: in fairness to him, I think it's also just like

1013
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 4: the kind of space humor just from so it's not

1014
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 4: just specific to his work, but definitely the movie is

1015
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 4: a glaring display of like limitations in that sense, because

1016
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 4: you look at them female characters in the movie and

1017
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 4: it's like it's Jenny and you know, it's Seetha, and

1018
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 4: both of them are kind of just framed in relation

1019
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 4: to these man and kind of all they do is

1020
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 4: kind of in service of the great Man's story. Like

1021
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 4: I remember recently there was a great interview with The

1022
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 4: New Yorker, you know, conducted by Simon Abrams with Roger Moully,

1023
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 4: the director, and Roger Moull completely imprompted, brings up the

1024
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 4: fact that he loves Iron Rand and like the fountain

1025
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 4: Head and shit like that. Yeah, and suddenly everything kind

1026
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 4: of makes perfect sense. It's like it fits, and like

1027
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 4: I think that kind of helps contextualize for Western audience

1028
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 4: in some regards.

1029
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I've been to multiple screenings of this movie

1030
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 3: where SSR was is like there to do a Q

1031
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 3: and A. It's when he he was coming to the

1032
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: US a lot to campaign for like awards, to like

1033
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 3: try to get nominated for oscars and stuff like that worked.

1034
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 3: And so I've seen him in the flesh four times

1035
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: brag and people would always ask, like they would try

1036
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: to like get him to say that this was like

1037
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 3: a political film making political statements, and he would always

1038
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 3: refuse to say that. And and at one point he

1039
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 3: was like, oh, some of my influences in like American

1040
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 3: cinema are Mel Gibson. And I was like, no, yeah, funny.

1041
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: Oh I was so fun there for that one. You're like, oh, okay,

1042
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 2: we're having like a nice time.

1043
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 4: No Ill that interview, that very same New Rope interview,

1044
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 4: he talked like, Okay, So his dad is a screenwriter, right,

1045
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 4: and that's kind of how he broke him. His dad

1046
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 4: was a screenwriter. Establish screenwriter he got him working, like

1047
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 4: that's where he broke into the industry and and all that.

1048
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 4: His dad is a seasoned screenwriter and he's currently working

1049
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 4: on a big RSS movie for this fascist stupid death

1050
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 4: cult you know runs every He so the dad who

1051
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 4: wrote Coro, you know, worked on RR with me because

1052
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 4: like Roger Old. Every movie Roger Mullien makes mostly with

1053
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 4: his dad, that dad and his writer and closest collaborator

1054
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 4: is working on this RSS movie for the RSS is

1055
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 4: hired by them, and having done the research and work

1056
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 4: on that movie, he came out of it with a

1057
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 4: very favorable view towards this organization. And when asked about this,

1058
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 4: Roger Mulli in that interview is like, well, I don't

1059
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 4: really know what the RSS is, but I read the

1060
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 4: script and I cried, and it's an amazing script and

1061
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 4: it's so emotional and it's it would be a beautiful movie.

1062
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 4: And it's kind of like, that's what the exact moment

1063
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 4: of Like okay, one, saying he does not know much

1064
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 4: about the RSS is like total bullshit in the context

1065
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 4: in the modern India he lives in, that's kind of

1066
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 4: just disingenuous.

1067
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 2: It was, that sounds like a lie.

1068
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 4: And like two, it's kind of like it lays there,

1069
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 4: the bullshit, like I'm a political filmmaker, Like no, what

1070
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 4: even your supposed quote un a political stance is a

1071
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 4: clearly political stance because his stance is essentially a bare

1072
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 4: minimum basic statistical forming stance. And the thing about the

1073
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 4: status real forming stances is that like it largely affirms

1074
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 4: the systems and the way things are as opposed to

1075
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 4: any actual radical change. It doesn't actually have an imagination

1076
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 4: imagine beyond what it is. They can only see what.

1077
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 3: Has been right.

1078
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: That's something I've read that New Yorker interview as well,

1079
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: and it's really interesting, and that you mentioned that about

1080
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 2: seeing as SR speak in person, Caitlin, where it does

1081
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 2: seem like any time he is confronted with a political question,

1082
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 2: there's this tendency to be like, well, I'm just an entertainer,

1083
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 2: which is definitely a pattern that I recognize, and people

1084
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: who are clearly making political stuff but don't want to

1085
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 2: necessarily label themselves as such, because that even that I

1086
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 2: rand question. He says, I understand parts of her philosophy,

1087
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 2: but that goes over my head when she gets into it.

1088
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 2: I'm not such a deep thinker. I'm more of a

1089
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 2: dramatic thinker. So I like the drama part of it,

1090
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 2: and it's like yeah, but.

1091
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, it's it's the essential like decontextualize. It's

1092
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 4: the idea of decontextualizing something and making a pure character drama.

1093
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 4: But you he does not seem to realize, or maybe

1094
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 4: he doesn't. He's not, you know, willing to admit it

1095
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 4: openly that you can't really decontextualize certain ideas in certain

1096
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 4: fantasies from their nature when you're you know, his essential

1097
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 4: problem then it's a problem that you'll see acrosss work

1098
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 4: is that he takes things and you know, presents them,

1099
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 4: but he never actually critically engages with them or is like, hey,

1100
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 4: maybe wait a minute, what does this actually mean? What

1101
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 4: does this choice or what does me packaging or representing

1102
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 4: this kind of thing implicate. He does not really think

1103
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 4: about that.

1104
01:03:54,840 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 3: He's just like, wow, cool, right, there's no interrogation of

1105
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 3: oppressive structures and systems that he has to be well

1106
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 3: aware exists, even though he's having deniability about it. So, like,

1107
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 3: the thing with R r R is that it's not

1108
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 3: like obviously and outwardly hateful toward marginalized groups in India

1109
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 3: such as Muslims and people who belong to lower casts,

1110
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 3: but it is centering and uplifting already privileged groups of

1111
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:37,439
Speaker 3: people and subtly or maybe not so subtly, promoting this

1112
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 3: existing Hindufa ideology. Because as you say, in your vox piece.

1113
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 3: There's a number of Indian films that have come out

1114
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 3: just over the decades that frame a Muslim character as

1115
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 3: like the evil villain or or.

1116
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 4: More likely like there's things like the christianir Filds, which

1117
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 4: are l like vile, evil and kind of like this is.

1118
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 4: You can't even stand to watch this fucking frame of it.

1119
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 4: It's like it's so wild and heinous. It's kind of

1120
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 4: just disgusting and repugnant on site. And that's like a

1121
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 4: very clear for right wing extremist film. But like something

1122
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 4: like rr Is, I think something like it's a much

1123
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 4: more it's a quote unquote liberal film and that you

1124
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 4: have you know, Muslims, but like or even when like

1125
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 4: he is kind of like portrayed as a Muslims, he's

1126
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 4: kind of like the simpleton, or like it's very much

1127
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 4: the idea of like it's liberal and then like everybody

1128
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 4: and everything is subservient to this sort of like the

1129
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 4: Super Hindu Hero, which is kind of rom like right,

1130
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 4: everything is kind of like there's a hierarchical perspective is

1131
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 4: kind of what it highlights, even as it does not

1132
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 4: necessarily want to demonize anything, if.

1133
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 3: That makes sense, exactly.

1134
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 4: Yes, that's that's what I mean, the status pro yeah, right.

1135
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 3: And another example is Beam is an indigenous person in

1136
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 3: real life, and the character is indigenous and comes from

1137
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 3: the Gond tribe, and the movie kind of like rewrites

1138
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 3: who that character was. Yeah, calmar On Bim was a

1139
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 3: well educated person who could read and write, but the

1140
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 3: movie paints him as this sort of like uncivilized simpleton

1141
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,439
Speaker 3: along with the entire community he comes from.

1142
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like at the end the end of the movie, right,

1143
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 4: the big sort of like climax has him ask Peam,

1144
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 4: you know this figure for like the gift of education,

1145
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 4: when like in reality, Pem was an educated man. I

1146
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 4: think that kind of is illustrative of like the sort

1147
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 4: of hierarchical view the movie has and presents, which is

1148
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 4: kind of like the baked and casts of like gragernalized

1149
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,439
Speaker 4: films you'll see again and you know if you watch

1150
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 4: Baba Belie, which is the big, you know, metaological blockbuster film,

1151
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 4: and the castism is kind of also rife there. So

1152
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 4: that it's the hierarchical perspective idea of why hierarchies and

1153
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 4: who gets to be on that and the way stereotypes

1154
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 4: derived from that perspective, that's.

1155
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 2: What you see it here, right, it does. And like

1156
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 2: if we are viewing this as a propaganda film, to

1157
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 2: some extent, it's very effective because you don't really realize

1158
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 2: it's happening. It's not good propaganda if it feels like propaganda.

1159
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 4: Right, it's kind of like you know a lot of

1160
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,919
Speaker 4: American blockbusters, right, like the politics, you're like you kind

1161
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 4: of just accept that they're going to kind of be

1162
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 4: fucked in a lot of words. Like you watch Top

1163
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 4: Gun and like, I was just gonna it's a fun,

1164
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 4: cool movie if it's like a fun sports movie, like

1165
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 4: the first one is a fun sports movie, the second

1166
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 4: ones but like the dads and sons and stuff, and

1167
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 4: it's fun. But like if you stop for second to

1168
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 4: think about it, it's like, yeah, you know, this is

1169
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,919
Speaker 4: really fucked the American imperiless propaganda absolutely. Yeah.

1170
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 2: And it's bought and paid for by the American military.

1171
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 2: Like Top Gun invented that whole of the system. Yeah,

1172
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 2: And I mean that's certainly not what everyone I know

1173
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 2: thought the first time they saw Top Gun, and and

1174
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 2: the numbers sort of bear that out. There was like

1175
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 2: a spike in air force after that.

1176
01:07:58,520 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.

1177
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 2: Guess this is maybe an extremely oversimpl like overly simplistic question,

1178
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 2: but for our listeners, what do you feel are kind

1179
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 2: of the most glaring oversimplifications or changes that really makes

1180
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 2: two history for the for the sake of this.

1181
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 4: Movie, well, definitely the one I mentioned about being and

1182
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 4: like not being educated, having to ask for the gift

1183
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 4: of education from a sort of Rom who is presented

1184
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 4: as like the war tragic. You know, Beam is not

1185
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 4: afford of the interiority of like Ram. If you watch

1186
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 4: the movie, Ram is like this complex, tragic figure, burdened

1187
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 4: and like all of these things, whereas Being kind of

1188
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 4: isn't a Beam is kind of like the simpleton who's

1189
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 4: kind of in response and reaction to the great complex

1190
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 4: figure of Rom. And so there's definitely that aspect of it.

1191
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 3: You also get a long sequence of Rom's backstory, and

1192
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 3: you get no information about Beam's backstory. The movie doesn't

1193
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 3: care to contextualize his character.

1194
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:06,879
Speaker 4: That's it's the thing of like everything and every everybody

1195
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,839
Speaker 4: kind of becomes subserving into the story of this great figure.

1196
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 4: And it's kind of very much like that. And it's interesting.

1197
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 4: It's like I look at this film and there's a

1198
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 4: lot of it is about like people talk about history

1199
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 4: and like history isn't just an assembly of facts, right,

1200
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 4: History is something that is constructed over and over and

1201
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 4: over again, and how it is presented, how it is

1202
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 4: like built and curated. And that's kind of like when

1203
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 4: you look at the end credits of this film, it

1204
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 4: is very much a specific curation of history with the

1205
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 4: historical figures, and he chooses to show like, for instance,

1206
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 4: it'll on you will not see you know a bit

1207
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 4: burn and the end of the film, who's a legendary

1208
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 4: Delta activist and is kind of like a father of

1209
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 4: the Indian constitution and possibly the greatest Indian figure that

1210
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,759
Speaker 4: like the West probably should know over Gandhi, but somehow

1211
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 4: Gandhi is the one people know anyway. But like you

1212
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 4: don't see figures like that, but you will see I

1213
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 4: don't know Shivaji and those credits, and like it's baffling

1214
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 4: because like Shivaji was like had nothing to do with

1215
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 4: fighting against the British, like that was kind of after

1216
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 4: his time. The guy is kind of now a figurehead

1217
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 4: in like the modern kind of HINDUO discourse, so like

1218
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 4: he's in there. It's very much a kind of like

1219
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 4: I'm not being political, but I also I totally am

1220
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 4: by just like.

1221
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 2: Just creating things, right, Yeah, yeah, it sounds like a

1222
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 2: lot of it is by omission versus by explicit rewriting.

1223
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 4: He's more a product of like being a very uncritical

1224
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 4: and unthinking creator and artist. And at some points, like

1225
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 4: when the guy says, oh, I don't know much about

1226
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 4: the RSS or anything, that's sort of dishonesty.

1227
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 2: Right right, right, because when he's backed into a corner,

1228
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 2: you just have to start lying at some point.

1229
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1230
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 3: Also in the end credits, he omits a number of

1231
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 3: Muslim revolutionaries revolutionaries from casts that are considered to be

1232
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 3: quote unquote lower it's secular revolutionaries.

1233
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 4: Also, to add to another aspect of the film, I

1234
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 4: think it's interesting, like one of the things that I

1235
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 4: found people who are really calling too is just the

1236
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,720
Speaker 4: idea of like this film finally portrays like you know,

1237
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 4: these white Brits is like the total bad guys and

1238
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 4: like absolute monsters caricatures, or like the Nazis and Indiana

1239
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 4: Jones are like, you know, these terrible monsters, and that

1240
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 4: as being about choice and like being something very cool.

1241
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 4: But what I found fascinating and telling is that, like

1242
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:33,120
Speaker 4: the movie's conceptualization and presentation of whiteness is so simplistic,

1243
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 4: so it's very much all the white people are bad,

1244
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 4: and then there is this one white person who is good.

1245
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 4: It's Jenny, as opposed to actually thinking or reckoning with

1246
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 4: the idea of a complicity and system and like Jenny

1247
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 4: has complicit and the privileges for being who she is

1248
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 4: and her relation to that. It's kind of never really

1249
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 4: the movie has no conception of that. It's just simple,

1250
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 4: there's good, there's bad. It's a simple idea, so there's

1251
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 4: not much actually radical or interesting things. It doesn't actually

1252
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 4: think of complete in terms of systems or complicity. It

1253
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,719
Speaker 4: just thinks in terms of like these sole individual figures

1254
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 4: doing things. And it's kind of it's the limitation both

1255
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 4: Roger Willi and the film.

1256
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 2: Right yeah.

1257
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 3: I at the end when like Beam reunites with Jenny

1258
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,720
Speaker 3: and everyone claps in the theater every time, I'm just like,

1259
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 3: what are we clapping for? This woman is so complicit,

1260
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 3: Like her family are literally the governor's she lives in

1261
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 3: the palace with these imperialist colonizers, Like, what what are

1262
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 3: we celebrating here?

1263
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 4: It's the case of like a film not really having

1264
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 4: capacity to think or like really do anything. It's kind

1265
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 4: of just a very simplistic piece of work in that sense.

1266
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 4: Now that every you know, big super action blockbuster needs

1267
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 4: to you know, really reckoned with complicity and avoidance of

1268
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 4: all of that income. But like, if you're actually saying

1269
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 4: this is radical, I think it has to actually be

1270
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 4: radical as opposed to like being you know, really simplicity.

1271
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 3: Right.

1272
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I wanted to ask about because this stuck with

1273
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 2: me the first time I saw this movie. That disclaimer

1274
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the movie is really intense and

1275
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: in pretty long, and it's i mean, like going in

1276
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 2: with little to no context. You're like, ooh, what is this?

1277
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 2: Like this feels defensive. I wonder what like this is

1278
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 2: kind of going up against. But you know, like this film,

1279
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 2: apart from showcasing the culture and geography of India, doesn't

1280
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:24,759
Speaker 2: imitate or imply any person, whether living or dead, doesn't

1281
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: indicate any race, cast, creed, or tribe. Any resemblance whatsoever

1282
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,799
Speaker 2: is purely coincidental. The producer, the director, or the technicians

1283
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 2: of the movie have no intention whatsoever of hurting anyone's

1284
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 2: sentiments or disrespecting any traditions or maligning the beliefs of

1285
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 2: any individual or group. What do you make of that?

1286
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:44,640
Speaker 4: I just think it's kind of like it's indicative like

1287
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 4: a film rather, isn't it. It's kind of like this,

1288
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 4: don't think of this as anything except cool character drama. Guys,

1289
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 4: don't think of this as anything meaning anything. It's like,

1290
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 4: it's not political. I'm just a cool dramatist, right.

1291
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 3: Like, don't yell at me. I'm not doing anything bad.

1292
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, well you are, though, And I

1293
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 3: still I can't not love this movie. Like it's it's

1294
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 3: a fun time.

1295
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 4: It's a fun movie, and like I think that's okay.

1296
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 4: It's just a case of like you can like like

1297
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 4: I love hop and I love hopkuin Maverick and like

1298
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 4: the key is knowing, Hey, these are fun movies about

1299
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 4: like fathers and sons and like tool sports, action ship,

1300
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 4: but also like it's kind of fucked and like you

1301
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 4: kind of have like look with that complexity.

1302
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 3: That's our the I mean, the whole ethos of our

1303
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 3: show is you're allowed to love whatever you love, just

1304
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 3: be critical of the media you consume.

1305
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:36,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, interesting, and that's.

1306
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 2: What we're doing which you think, but uh, you know,

1307
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 2: most people don't do it. And this makes this I've

1308
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 2: been thinking so much about just historical epics in general.

1309
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 2: It makes me want to go back and revisit more

1310
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 2: of them because no, I'm kidding, Oh.

1311
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 4: My god, that's actually a big influence on the guy,

1312
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 4: is it?

1313
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:56,719
Speaker 3: That makes sense?

1314
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,640
Speaker 2: I mean, because they're whatever they historical genre and I

1315
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 2: think I would put this movie in that category for

1316
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 2: at least big chunks of the movie, and almost every

1317
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 2: single time they have a very loose grasp on history

1318
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:17,040
Speaker 2: and are often sort of the only interaction that a

1319
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 2: lot of people have with the with the history at all.

1320
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. And it's interesting because like you look at art, right,

1321
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,959
Speaker 4: art is Art's purpose isn't exactly, you know, to recreate

1322
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 4: history necessarily, But it's a case of you judge art

1323
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,160
Speaker 4: on the merit of like, Okay, what is this trying

1324
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 4: to say? And what is this constructing? And what is

1325
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 4: this construct for and what does it mean? So even

1326
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 4: if it isn't necessarily historically accurate, you look at Okay,

1327
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 4: what is this trying to tell me? Yeah, and you

1328
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:43,600
Speaker 4: judge it on bat merit, And like I think a

1329
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:46,639
Speaker 4: lot of the films kind of when they do construct history,

1330
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 4: they kind of struggle with not thinking certain things through,

1331
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 4: and that's kind of where the pitfall is. But if

1332
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 4: you actually think things through, like can do something with it,

1333
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 4: I think you're kind of like more okay with that.

1334
01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, this is my last question, but I I

1335
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,799
Speaker 2: guess yeah, with any historical epic, it's like, well, why

1336
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 2: are we choosing this story to produce on such a

1337
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 2: large scale at this moment? Do you have an opinion

1338
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 2: on that of why SSR would choose this story in

1339
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 2: this moment?

1340
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely like to go back to the original point.

1341
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 4: He talked about the genesis of the film being, you know,

1342
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 4: the separation of those two states, and like so I

1343
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 4: kind of understand why because like in Andre Ram is

1344
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 4: kind of a big figure who's known, like you'll see

1345
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 4: if you go around a street, you will see like

1346
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 4: big you know, statues of the guy around the streets

1347
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,600
Speaker 4: and stuff like that, and so, and he was a

1348
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 4: huge figure for that film and kind of movement. So

1349
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:40,599
Speaker 4: there's a kind of sense of like, oh, he would

1350
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:42,599
Speaker 4: of course he would make that movie, And that kind

1351
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 4: of makes sense, especially because there was a tradition of

1352
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 4: like having made films on you know, Ram before. There's

1353
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 4: a big classic movie based on Ram two before like

1354
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,639
Speaker 4: eight years ago, was starting a big iconic star back

1355
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,479
Speaker 4: in the day. So it's not new essentially, So he's

1356
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 4: just kind of part of that tradition and making films

1357
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 4: that no, and like even the interesting thing is like

1358
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 4: you look at a lot of the lugucinema and like

1359
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 4: there is a lot of it that draws on mythology

1360
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 4: and constructions frames its heroes or figures through that divine

1361
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 4: lens or like frames and Makinder goods and stuff like that.

1362
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 4: So he is part of that lineage and tradition. So

1363
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 4: I think there's a sense of oh, of course he

1364
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 4: would make this movie, Like it makes sense to me

1365
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 4: in that sense. But then you hear something like yeah,

1366
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:27,960
Speaker 4: we're working on our r R two now, and like

1367
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:30,640
Speaker 4: we're like we're working on a script and they're like

1368
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,879
Speaker 4: but why though, why it's kind of baffling.

1369
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, who's that gonna be about?

1370
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:40,040
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, I mean I wasn't able to find a

1371
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:42,640
Speaker 2: lot of information on it outside of just like anytime

1372
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:45,160
Speaker 2: something is successful, they're like, do it seven more times?

1373
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 2: But it's like, though, this is these are these were

1374
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,639
Speaker 2: people like, what are you what are you intending to add?

1375
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 4: Everything is IP now truly?

1376
01:17:56,200 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 3: Do you have any final thoughts anything else you'd like

1377
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:01,440
Speaker 3: to share.

1378
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 4: On the film itself? The way I think about it

1379
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 4: is just like it's a fun movie and I think

1380
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 4: people can like have whatever feelings they have about it.

1381
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:11,720
Speaker 4: But it's just a case of like I would like

1382
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 4: people just think through and like kind of like understand

1383
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 4: what they're watching and kind of if anything, see's the

1384
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 4: saddest thing about the movie. For me, it was just

1385
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 4: like watching people watch this and kind of watching the response, going, Man,

1386
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 4: people really know nothing about Indian cinema at all, huh,

1387
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 4: because like we're India is a huge country with like

1388
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 4: hundreds of languages, and each state is almost into a

1389
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 4: nation of itself in the sense of like each state

1390
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:40,679
Speaker 4: has its own language, it's its own like whole thing. Yeah,

1391
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 4: And it's kind of like it's it's comparable more to

1392
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 4: Europe in the sense of like it's a big thing,

1393
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 4: where as I as opposed to just one you know

1394
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,720
Speaker 4: thing that's like it's a hugely diverse place and there's

1395
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:54,719
Speaker 4: like almost twenty industries that are separate for each language.

1396
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 4: To make separate movies in those languages, and there's a rich,

1397
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 4: long tradition of movies all of them. And I was

1398
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 4: really strufy the idea of, like, wow, people know nothing

1399
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 4: about this, and it was kind of like, so, if

1400
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 4: I have any last thing, it's I guess just like

1401
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:10,600
Speaker 4: I would like people to explore Indian cinema more, and

1402
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 4: just like, rather than going, okay, I watched this, and

1403
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:15,879
Speaker 4: it kind of I would like people to like engage

1404
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 4: with and like see more movies in general, and kind

1405
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 4: of like, I don't know, develop a taste a sense

1406
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 4: for it as opposed to just kind of like making

1407
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 4: this one hit thing, right, I would like people to

1408
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 4: watch more movies period.

1409
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 3: Do you have any recommendations of films to check out

1410
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:35,320
Speaker 3: that don't like uphold a troubling status quo the way

1411
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 3: that R R R does well.

1412
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 4: So the interesting thing is, I've really been liking the

1413
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 4: sort of recent tunnel movement in the tunnel in film

1414
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 4: industry has recently, in the few years, seen a movement

1415
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 4: of like delict filmmakers and like artists who have been

1416
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 4: making their own art, and so I would really recommend

1417
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,439
Speaker 4: people check out stuff like that. So, like prune it

1418
01:19:55,479 --> 01:19:57,559
Speaker 4: and folks like that. I've been doing some interesting work.

1419
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 4: I would say, definitely check that out. That's interesting perspective

1420
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 4: and like that's a lot of like I think, where

1421
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 4: a lot of future stuff is going. But yeah, mostly

1422
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:08,720
Speaker 4: I would say I want people to understand and like

1423
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:12,160
Speaker 4: engage with film across the work. There's so much cool

1424
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:15,719
Speaker 4: history to film beyond just the sort of like okay,

1425
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,759
Speaker 4: there's like America, and then in dialogue with America because

1426
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 4: of monster movies and samurai movies, there's Japan and then

1427
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,000
Speaker 4: there's Hong Kong as opposed to just kind of that's

1428
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 4: kind of like, let's kind of fully grasp with that.

1429
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 3: Cool. Yeah, I'm going I have a subscription to Z five,

1430
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:37,400
Speaker 3: which is a streaming service for anyone who doesn't know,

1431
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 3: is I think dedicated specifically and primarily to Indian film

1432
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 3: and TV. So I have access to a lot. Yeah,

1433
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 3: well real, thank you so much for joining us. This

1434
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,639
Speaker 3: has been such a delight, and thank.

1435
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:57,400
Speaker 2: You for your work too. I yeah, it was incredibly

1436
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 2: useful and I'm very glad doing it.

1437
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,000
Speaker 4: Appreciate it. Thank you of.

1438
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:05,599
Speaker 3: Course, Where can people check out more of your work

1439
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:08,320
Speaker 3: and follow you online? All that good stuff.

1440
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:12,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I'm at writer pretty much everywhere and you

1441
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 4: can find me there and I'm a newsletter. I guess

1442
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 4: you can subscribe to that, though I haven't written more

1443
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 4: since my r or piece com is my website, So

1444
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 4: if you want to hit me up, that's where you

1445
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 4: do it. And that's kind of it.

1446
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 2: Amazing cool.

1447
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,960
Speaker 3: Thank you again so much for joining us.

1448
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. This was fun. Yay.

1449
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 2: Once again, we wanted to thank Ravesh Babu for coming

1450
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 2: on the show giving us some context and giving us

1451
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 2: better insight into the movie. That was so awesome, very helpful.

1452
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 2: I like to, I mean, we like to at least

1453
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:51,799
Speaker 2: try to be honest about our biases in watching movies

1454
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 2: and what we you know, you don't know, what you

1455
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,360
Speaker 2: don't know. And even after I saw R R R

1456
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 2: with you, I read his work like that night and

1457
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 2: it was so so helpful and I don't know, it

1458
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 2: was really cool for him to come on the show,

1459
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 2: look at us praising a man sickos okay, and and

1460
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:18,000
Speaker 2: now return to business, which is with that historical context

1461
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 2: in mind, let's talk about the characters. Let's talk about

1462
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:23,400
Speaker 2: the relationships in the movie.

1463
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:29,000
Speaker 3: Yes, shall we start with the representation of women. Ever

1464
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 3: heard of it? It's bad, It's bad. Here's what I'll say.

1465
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 2: It's not good, not good oil. Honestly it was. It

1466
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 2: was pissing me off, but in at least different flavors

1467
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:44,560
Speaker 2: of not good. But I did. There was repeat it.

1468
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 2: Anytime man was talking to or about a woman. It

1469
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:53,599
Speaker 2: was stuff like wait, I would cover writing it down.

1470
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:56,600
Speaker 2: Anytime Rom talks to Sita, he says one thing and

1471
01:22:56,600 --> 01:23:02,720
Speaker 2: he's like, you're you're my strength, baby, Like like I

1472
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:05,519
Speaker 2: am fighting for freedom and you are my strength, and

1473
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 2: like that is how men view women. Sita, my courage

1474
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:11,960
Speaker 2: has always been my strength, but your courage will help

1475
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:17,640
Speaker 2: me succeed. It's just very it's very reductive of Cita.

1476
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,200
Speaker 2: But we also see Ram's father discuss Ram's mother in

1477
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 2: that way, exactly, saying that, oh, she is my courage,

1478
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,759
Speaker 2: she is my strength, which you know, I think's interesting

1479
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 2: because it's like that sounds good, but it also inherently

1480
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:34,599
Speaker 2: implies in action and implies like you hold down the

1481
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 2: fort while I go to man stuff exactly truly what

1482
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:41,599
Speaker 2: it is where he is just asking her to and

1483
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 2: not to say that that is unimportant or valueless. Work.

1484
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 2: It's not, but it's very I think, very gender essential

1485
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,760
Speaker 2: to be like, all right, you were my strength. If

1486
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 2: you weren't my my fucking wife, like I couldn't kill

1487
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,639
Speaker 2: all these guys or whatever. You know, it's just very

1488
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 2: traditional view of gender, right, And.

1489
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:07,840
Speaker 3: I know that that happened historically because of gender roles

1490
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:09,240
Speaker 3: and patriarchical nothing.

1491
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,720
Speaker 2: In this movie happened, so you could. As we just

1492
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 2: talked about for an hour, this movie doesn't have much

1493
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 2: of an interest in being historically accurate. So it does

1494
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 2: feel like a modern decision like that that was a

1495
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:25,920
Speaker 2: twenty whatever, twenty twenty whatever decision to sideline women in

1496
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 2: this way.

1497
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:30,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, women don't exist to be men's inspiration and sorts

1498
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 3: of strength.

1499
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:36,400
Speaker 2: Exactly, I mean, but there are like slightly different flav

1500
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, the only women that we get to

1501
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:47,280
Speaker 2: know are Sita, Kathy, and Jenny, so three very different women,

1502
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 2: which and let's sideline Kathy for a second. The two

1503
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:54,599
Speaker 2: women we are supposed to like are Sita and Jenny. Right, Sita,

1504
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:56,479
Speaker 2: for the most part, like we were just saying, she

1505
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:00,960
Speaker 2: is waiting, she's waiting, she's waiting, she's waiting around come

1506
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:06,200
Speaker 2: home past reassuring everyone Mom's got this. Towards the end,

1507
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 2: she does get some stuff to do. I've noticed that

1508
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:15,240
Speaker 2: Sita and Jenny both iconically do one thing. Yes. Uh,

1509
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 2: Sita's one thing is that she thinks really quickly when

1510
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:23,880
Speaker 2: police raid the space where she has just met Beam

1511
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:28,360
Speaker 2: and Molly. Yeah, and she says that someone has what

1512
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:32,600
Speaker 2: the disease smallpox? Small pox? Yes, so she says that

1513
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:35,000
Speaker 2: someone has smallpox, and then the police get the fuck

1514
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:37,599
Speaker 2: out of there, and that is like her active, her

1515
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:41,840
Speaker 2: one thing to protect someone else, which is great, for sure,

1516
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 2: It's one thing in three hours, but it's great. And

1517
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 2: then Jenny's one thing happens in montage from what I

1518
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 2: could tell. But the one thing Jenny does is she

1519
01:25:53,640 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 2: gives Beam a map likeware to rest, which is I

1520
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:05,720
Speaker 2: think the only time we see her be like explicitly rebellious.

1521
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 3: Towards yeah, her family.

1522
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:09,439
Speaker 2: We'll get to her in a second, but yeah, Like,

1523
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:10,599
Speaker 2: they both do.

1524
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 3: One thing, and the thing that Sita does is accompanied

1525
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 3: by some violence, And so I wanted to bring up

1526
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 3: the kind of use of violence in this movie, which

1527
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,719
Speaker 3: there is a lot of. This is a violent action movie, yes,

1528
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 3: but violence is used to brutalize women in this movie

1529
01:26:33,439 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 3: in a way that it's generally not used to brutalize men,

1530
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:40,400
Speaker 3: with a few exceptions that I'll get to, But there's

1531
01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:43,120
Speaker 3: the scene where Cita like does this quick thinking and

1532
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:46,120
Speaker 3: she's like, oh, someone has smallpox, and then she is

1533
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 3: violently kicked by a British officer. There's another scene early

1534
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 3: on where Maley's mother is struck on the head. We

1535
01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 3: mentioned that one already. Both are moments of brutal violence

1536
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:03,599
Speaker 3: that sort of seem to imply like, look how weak

1537
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:08,479
Speaker 3: and helpless these women are, while when men do violence

1538
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:13,000
Speaker 3: in this movie it's like exciting action sequences, with a

1539
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 3: few exceptions that I can think of, all involving Beam,

1540
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:21,480
Speaker 3: such as the scene where Beam is brutally beaten by

1541
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 3: that one officer who brings his motorcycle to the mechanic shop,

1542
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:30,080
Speaker 3: as well as the scene where Beam is flogged publicly

1543
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:35,759
Speaker 3: by Ram, which, as we've discussed, Beam is treated differently

1544
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 3: from Ram, where unlike Ram, Beam is not elevated to

1545
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,599
Speaker 3: this godlike status, He's not given a backstory. All these

1546
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 3: different things that like create this like imbalance between these

1547
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 3: two characters who we are supposed to like who are

1548
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 3: supposed to be equally important, but Ram is like elevated

1549
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:58,680
Speaker 3: in this particular way, probably because Beam is Indigenous and

1550
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:03,519
Speaker 3: indigenous people in India at this time. I'm not sure

1551
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 3: if this is still true today. Again, I only have

1552
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 3: a pretty peripheral understanding of the caste system, but this

1553
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 3: was definitely true at the time, that indigenous people exist

1554
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 3: outside of the caste system because they are considered to

1555
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 3: be below brah monoical supremacy, which is the ideology that

1556
01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:27,920
Speaker 3: dictates the hierarchy and elitism of the caste system. So

1557
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:30,639
Speaker 3: I think because Beam is Indigenous, and I know we're

1558
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 3: talking about the women, and I am sidetracking and talking no, no, no,

1559
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 3: this is important to Beam. But I just wanted to

1560
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 3: like point out the ways in which marginalized people such

1561
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 3: as women and indigenous people, the way violence is handled

1562
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 3: with them versus when like Ram is doing violence. It's like,

1563
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:55,400
Speaker 3: look at this fucking awesome superhero and like all of

1564
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 3: his cool action.

1565
01:28:57,160 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 2: Well yeah, that takes it takes you to what we

1566
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 2: were talking about in our interview, where it was presented

1567
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:11,040
Speaker 2: that Beam was not an educated man and he was

1568
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:15,200
Speaker 2: serves the purpose of this story to downplay that and

1569
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 2: an exchange that I didn't remember to bring up was

1570
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 2: at the end one of the last interactions, maybe the

1571
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:25,760
Speaker 2: last interaction that Rom and Beam have clearly establishes like

1572
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:29,680
Speaker 2: Rom is the guy, which the political implications of that

1573
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 2: is Beam at the end is like, I want you

1574
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 2: to teach me Like that is so he like they

1575
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:42,880
Speaker 2: don't really end as equals, which is so weird because

1576
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 2: the whole thing is that they're holding each other's hands

1577
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 2: and it looks like that fucking meme where it's like yeah,

1578
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,919
Speaker 2: but it's like the power dynamic between them is actually

1579
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:56,800
Speaker 2: always a little uneven because it's implied that Rom has

1580
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 2: an education and Beam does not. Rom is bilin well,

1581
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:02,559
Speaker 2: Beam is not. Like there's all of these things that

1582
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 2: always give Ram like quote unquote the edge over Beam,

1583
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:09,720
Speaker 2: and it doesn't nullify their friendship, but it does. But

1584
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 2: the movie still sort of ends with that being the case,

1585
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 2: where Beam is like, I want to be your student, Ram,

1586
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 2: and it's like.

1587
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 3: And the movie ends with yeah, Beam saying like teach

1588
01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:21,479
Speaker 3: me to read and write, and then Ram writes a

1589
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:26,759
Speaker 3: phrase on a flag that real life historical figure Comoran

1590
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:32,400
Speaker 3: Beam that was his saying, like that was his like ah,

1591
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:36,720
Speaker 3: but instead it has Ram Raju, like this movie attributes

1592
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 3: that phrase to him. The phrase is jall jangle zamin.

1593
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure I'm not pronouncing that correctly, but it translates

1594
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 3: in English to water, forest land, and it makes sense

1595
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:55,080
Speaker 3: that an indigenous person would value those things and have

1596
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:59,320
Speaker 3: that be their slogan for freedom. But instead this movie

1597
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:03,080
Speaker 3: tribute ttes like the coining of that phrase or that

1598
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 3: slogan to Rom. Also, there's a scene in the movie

1599
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 3: where Sita is explaining to Beam why Rom went into

1600
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:19,280
Speaker 3: the police force, and Beam responds by basically saying, like, oh,

1601
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 3: my vision has been so narrow here. I am only

1602
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 3: trying to save one person, but Ram is trying to

1603
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 3: start this whole big revolution, like his scale is so

1604
01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 3: much grander than mine. And then Beam says the tribal

1605
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 3: that I am, I did not understand. So again it's

1606
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 3: positioning Beam, this indigenous person as being simple minded and

1607
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:49,680
Speaker 3: not able to see the bigger picture, which is just

1608
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 3: so insulting and reductive to characterize an indigenous person in

1609
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:56,280
Speaker 3: that way.

1610
01:31:56,720 --> 01:32:00,040
Speaker 2: Do not like all right, back back to back to

1611
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:04,000
Speaker 2: the gaps. Yes, yes, so Tita, Yes, I think that

1612
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:10,519
Speaker 2: Tita is presented as kind of your classically virtuous It's

1613
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:14,000
Speaker 2: it almost it is like a you know, woman waiting

1614
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 2: for her man to come home from war kind of character.

1615
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:20,440
Speaker 2: She does get to do one thing, she is subjected

1616
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 2: to violence immediately, And I totally agree with what you're

1617
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,280
Speaker 2: saying there is like the violence is to demonstrate that

1618
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:28,880
Speaker 2: they that like.

1619
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 3: They need men to protect them kind of thing.

1620
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 2: They cannot protect themselves. And then we have Jenny, who

1621
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 2: has a whole different set of issues. I mean, I

1622
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:41,960
Speaker 2: just like, I don't know, I mean, Jenny and Tita

1623
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:46,080
Speaker 2: are written very differently. Jenny, as we discussed. I think

1624
01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 2: it is a big weird problem that like she is

1625
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 2: so I don't even know. It's like whatever the level

1626
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:56,720
Speaker 2: above complicity is, Like it feels like too simple to

1627
01:32:56,720 --> 01:33:01,120
Speaker 2: say that she's complicit. Her aunt Kathy is on the

1628
01:33:01,160 --> 01:33:04,640
Speaker 2: other hand, like a full on fucking tyrant and is

1629
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 2: actively I mean, there's that whole sequence when Beam is

1630
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,479
Speaker 2: being beat by rom It's such a hard scene to

1631
01:33:10,479 --> 01:33:15,280
Speaker 2: watch where she keeps suggesting like more and more brutal

1632
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:17,839
Speaker 2: weapons to hurt him, when.

1633
01:33:17,640 --> 01:33:21,719
Speaker 3: She just has a spiky whip in her dress question Mark,

1634
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 3: and she's like here, use this, Yeah, I forgot.

1635
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 2: She had it on her. So she is obviously not

1636
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:34,600
Speaker 2: the top colonizer, that's Governor Scott. But she is actively

1637
01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 2: perpetuating violence against Indian people the entire movie and is

1638
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:44,640
Speaker 2: often suggesting to her husband to turn it up to

1639
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:49,360
Speaker 2: and eleven and make the violence even more brutal. So

1640
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 2: she is a very active character in the worst way, which,

1641
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 2: as we were talking about, that is sort of one

1642
01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 2: of the things this movie gets really right is like

1643
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:04,640
Speaker 2: and I think is very striking to I mean all audiences,

1644
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 2: but I think Western audiences in particular, where we're i

1645
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:10,240
Speaker 2: think kind of used to being asked to empathize with

1646
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 2: the colonizer or to see that, like even in modern movies,

1647
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:17,680
Speaker 2: to be like, okay, so colonization's obviously wrong. But the

1648
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 2: way that the tone of this movie makes it completely

1649
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:24,040
Speaker 2: possible for all of the colonizers to just be like

1650
01:34:24,120 --> 01:34:28,400
Speaker 2: cartoonishly like as cartoonishly evil as colonizers are. Yeah, so

1651
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:30,599
Speaker 2: it's like fun and cathartic totally.

1652
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 3: Though the movie, she's the one exception of like white

1653
01:34:35,120 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 3: colonizer woman who doesn't get let off the hook, because

1654
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 3: the movie lets all the other ones off the hook,

1655
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:42,640
Speaker 3: and the only other one we really get to know

1656
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:45,799
Speaker 3: is Jenny. But like Jenny, there's that whole party Jenny's friends.

1657
01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah that's exactly yeah, like which recontextualizes the party in

1658
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:53,639
Speaker 2: a way. You're like, it's such a good dance scene,

1659
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:55,240
Speaker 2: but like what are we doing?

1660
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 3: And yeah, like all the all the white women are like,

1661
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:01,599
Speaker 3: let's dance along to the not too not too song

1662
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 3: and these men are boyfriends. They feel threatened by these

1663
01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:10,200
Speaker 3: brown men, and they're trying to compete against them.

1664
01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:13,479
Speaker 2: Right, like every white woman is an ally.

1665
01:35:14,160 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like, well, no, that's not how that happened.

1666
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:22,799
Speaker 3: So yeah, I appreciate Lady Buxton being in the movie

1667
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 3: and like depicted the way she was in a weird way.

1668
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,920
Speaker 3: Because the racism and other prejudices that a lot of

1669
01:35:29,960 --> 01:35:33,559
Speaker 3: white women perpetuate should not be ignored or let off

1670
01:35:33,560 --> 01:35:38,839
Speaker 3: the hook, although they are too often, So I appreciate

1671
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 3: that this movie shows like, yes, like white women can

1672
01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:45,240
Speaker 3: be complicit and or actively perpetuating.

1673
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:48,040
Speaker 2: Yes, Like, just because you are not the most powerful

1674
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 2: person in the world right, does not mean that you

1675
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 2: do not hold a lot of privilege and cannot weaponize

1676
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 2: it against other people.

1677
01:35:56,160 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 3: Also, fun fact, lady Buxton is played by Alison Duty,

1678
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 3: who is the Nazi woman from Indiana Jones and The

1679
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:09,559
Speaker 3: Last Crusade. So she is very good at playing evil

1680
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:10,200
Speaker 3: white women.

1681
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:18,160
Speaker 2: What an interesting life of typecasting like wild Yes, okay,

1682
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:20,720
Speaker 2: so back to Jenny, Back to Jenny. Okay, So like

1683
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:23,519
Speaker 2: point while taken with Lady Buxton, I agree, but then

1684
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 2: also like Jenny undercuts that same thing right where Jenny

1685
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 2: is their niece and it's I'm not saying that, like

1686
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:36,320
Speaker 2: it's within Jenny's power to dismantle colonialism, Like that's an

1687
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 2: unreasonable expectation. However, I feel like she's presented because she

1688
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 2: is nice and because she is not actively individually perpetuating

1689
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:50,160
Speaker 2: harm against individuals and has I think there's like two

1690
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 2: different instances. One is when Beam first sees her, she

1691
01:36:54,360 --> 01:36:57,759
Speaker 2: tells off a police officer for beating someone for no reason,

1692
01:36:58,280 --> 01:37:01,519
Speaker 2: and that is like her technically using her privilege for

1693
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:05,439
Speaker 2: good because she has more clout than he does and

1694
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:07,439
Speaker 2: so he stops good.

1695
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1696
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 2: And then the other time that we see Jenny likely

1697
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:17,200
Speaker 2: likely push against a system of oppression is when she

1698
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 2: brings Beam back to the palace or the hat whatever,

1699
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:23,360
Speaker 2: the big the big man, the big old place colonial

1700
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:27,679
Speaker 2: manner and an officer or a guard or a soldier,

1701
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 2: what's the difference some guy, you know, some guy assumes

1702
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:38,760
Speaker 2: that Beam is the help, and Jenny says fuck off

1703
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:42,439
Speaker 2: and then apologizes to Beam and they kind of move on.

1704
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:46,000
Speaker 2: So it's like, individually, sure, you know, she does the

1705
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,320
Speaker 2: right thing in those moments, but I feel like those

1706
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 2: moments are illustrated of like therefore she is totally good,

1707
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:58,640
Speaker 2: and like, I don't know, I just thought that like

1708
01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:04,120
Speaker 2: her level complicity was not examined in any meaningful way,

1709
01:38:04,360 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 2: in a way that there was room in this movie

1710
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:09,360
Speaker 2: to happen, like and it seems like I know that Beam,

1711
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:12,240
Speaker 2: you know, loves her, but it seems like he is

1712
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:16,720
Speaker 2: the sort of person because he is so smart and

1713
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:23,320
Speaker 2: because he is so motivated to dismantle the colonialism that's

1714
01:38:23,320 --> 01:38:26,920
Speaker 2: affecting everyone he knows, it seems like the sort of

1715
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:29,960
Speaker 2: thing that he would want to talk about. So it's

1716
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 2: kind of like it feels like it suggests that, like

1717
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:37,880
Speaker 2: women are so wayfish and powerless that it's like not

1718
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:41,080
Speaker 2: even worth the discussion to examine their complicity or like

1719
01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:44,000
Speaker 2: I don't really know what that decision was. It felt

1720
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 2: a little out of step with who we know Beam

1721
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 2: to be. But the whole like Beam rom Com section

1722
01:38:51,080 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 2: of the movie feels a little out of step with

1723
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:55,200
Speaker 2: who Beam is for the rest of the movie.

1724
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 3: Right, It's just like, I don't know if it's suggesting

1725
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:04,640
Speaker 3: like the attention of a woman softens him up a

1726
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:07,960
Speaker 3: little bit for a while or something. I don't know,

1727
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:08,919
Speaker 3: because see.

1728
01:39:08,720 --> 01:39:11,880
Speaker 2: The at one point when the when the tiger is

1729
01:39:11,920 --> 01:39:15,080
Speaker 2: attacking everybody, he like puts Jenny in a.

1730
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:18,320
Speaker 3: Car, who is dressed exactly like Belle from Beauty and

1731
01:39:18,320 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 3: the Beast. In that moment, me.

1732
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,559
Speaker 2: Is and she she is very bell I mean, she

1733
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:26,720
Speaker 2: looks like Belle too, But he I don't. Every time

1734
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:28,599
Speaker 2: I see that scene and he puts her in the car,

1735
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:30,920
Speaker 2: and it's supposed to be like I will protect you,

1736
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:34,040
Speaker 2: You're my GF, now whatever, But he puts her in

1737
01:39:34,080 --> 01:39:36,080
Speaker 2: a car, I'm like, that could be that could be

1738
01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:38,720
Speaker 2: a kiss of death. That could be so bad for her. Yeah,

1739
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 2: that car can explode Like this, I wouldn't want to

1740
01:39:43,120 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 2: be locked in a car in the middle of a

1741
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:47,639
Speaker 2: war zone. It just feels like you're almost more more

1742
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:51,479
Speaker 2: vulnerable than if you could move. But what do I know.

1743
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:53,599
Speaker 3: It's hard to say.

1744
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 2: In any case. With the three main women that we

1745
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 2: get to know, they are different enough. I think Sa

1746
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:04,040
Speaker 2: and Jenny have certain qualities in commons, such as passivity

1747
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:07,760
Speaker 2: and only being able to do one thing.

1748
01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:11,040
Speaker 3: Oh that's what I was gonna say. There's that scene

1749
01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:15,720
Speaker 3: when Beam is beating Oh yeah, there's another moment where

1750
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:20,679
Speaker 3: like an indigenous character is being brutalized. When Rom beats Lachu,

1751
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:25,639
Speaker 3: Beam's brother. He's like flailing his web his like stick

1752
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:31,160
Speaker 3: around and his bacelet flies off. Men be flailing their

1753
01:40:31,200 --> 01:40:36,360
Speaker 3: sticks around and his and Rom's bracelet flies off, and

1754
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 3: we get a flashback where we see like the significance

1755
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:42,200
Speaker 3: of this bracelet because like Cita has the other half

1756
01:40:42,200 --> 01:40:45,559
Speaker 3: of it, and it's sort of like, oh, they.

1757
01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:50,440
Speaker 2: Literally have like Claire's necklaces on that are like best friends.

1758
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 3: And he's like, wait a minute, I'm reminded that I

1759
01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:58,160
Speaker 3: have a girlfriend and maybe I should be conflicted about

1760
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:02,439
Speaker 3: how I'm beating my fellow Indian. You know, Like it's

1761
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:04,560
Speaker 3: just such a weird, like the way the function of

1762
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,280
Speaker 3: women in this movie is, yeah, just like to be passive,

1763
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:08,479
Speaker 3: to be the.

1764
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:12,840
Speaker 2: Like also to represent purity and goodness and nonviolence and like,

1765
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,920
Speaker 2: can't we just stop fighting? And you're like, and even

1766
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 2: with I mean MOLLI is I feel like Mali represents

1767
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:24,400
Speaker 2: something similar to what the women of the story, or

1768
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:27,960
Speaker 2: at least Tita and Jenny represent, which is like, this

1769
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:32,520
Speaker 2: is what we're fighting for, that kind of like nationalistic

1770
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:34,960
Speaker 2: and I guess Jenny doesn't actually really factor in there,

1771
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:38,679
Speaker 2: but like Tita and Mali, I feel like definitely represent

1772
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:42,599
Speaker 2: like this is why we do what we do for

1773
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:47,920
Speaker 2: the women, which is in any nationalistic narrative. I feel

1774
01:41:47,920 --> 01:41:51,240
Speaker 2: like that always comes up. I mean, it certainly comes

1775
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 2: up in American media all the time. It comes up

1776
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:59,479
Speaker 2: in Mulan. They all want a girl worth fighting for,

1777
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:05,640
Speaker 2: and it's a very common and this movie doesn't challenge that.

1778
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 2: This movie, I mean, honestly, once you can get past

1779
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:11,800
Speaker 2: the thrill of it, this movie doesn't challenge very much

1780
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 2: outside of imperialism and colonialism, which is very important to

1781
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:17,840
Speaker 2: challenge obviously, But.

1782
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:20,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, as we've discussed, it upholds the status quo in

1783
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:23,599
Speaker 3: many other ways. The other thing I wanted to say

1784
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:29,360
Speaker 3: about Jenny is the see the meet cute. Yes, so

1785
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:34,840
Speaker 3: there's a really wild scene where so Ram is like

1786
01:42:35,000 --> 01:42:38,559
Speaker 3: I'll be your wingman. Beam, Oh, you want to talk

1787
01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:44,000
Speaker 3: to Jenny? Okay? So Rom grabs a handful of nails

1788
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:47,839
Speaker 3: and throws them in front of Jenny's car to flatten

1789
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:51,400
Speaker 3: her tires so that Beam will have an excuse to

1790
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:53,080
Speaker 3: talk to her Jenny.

1791
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:55,599
Speaker 2: The scene has played so goody.

1792
01:42:56,400 --> 01:43:02,559
Speaker 3: It's an extremely goofy scene. Jenny is completely oblivious as

1793
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 3: to what is happening because she's driving her car, but

1794
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 3: she is not looking at the road She's seen just

1795
01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:10,759
Speaker 3: like staring off at the distance, being like do do doo.

1796
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:15,080
Speaker 3: And then when Beam realizes what Rom did, like you

1797
01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 3: would expect that reaction, his reaction to be something like

1798
01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 3: what the fuck, dude, you can't just like throw nails

1799
01:43:20,479 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 3: in front of a woman's car to get her attention.

1800
01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 3: But instead Beam is like, thanks, bro, it was awesome

1801
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:29,439
Speaker 3: that you did that, and Rom is like, yeah, it

1802
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:31,800
Speaker 3: was pretty awesome that I did that, and Jenny is like,

1803
01:43:31,840 --> 01:43:34,799
Speaker 3: what happened? My tires are flat for some reason? Hahah.

1804
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 2: Literally, it is so like it it is it seems

1805
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 2: like it's almost like Vaudevillian in the way that it

1806
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 2: plays out, because you're like, yeah, I mean, it is

1807
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 2: very weird that Beam is like, oh cool, thank you.

1808
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,920
Speaker 2: And also it doesn't seem like Beam really notices that Rob,

1809
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:52,960
Speaker 2: like why can no one see that this is happening?

1810
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:56,160
Speaker 2: And it also presents Jenny as being like not very

1811
01:43:56,200 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 2: smart and completely oblivious to the world around her, because

1812
01:44:00,320 --> 01:44:04,120
Speaker 2: you could, like, as an audience member, you can feel

1813
01:44:04,360 --> 01:44:07,320
Speaker 2: you can hear the nails fall to the ground, and

1814
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 2: the way she's driving is like she's not looking at

1815
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:13,240
Speaker 2: the road, She's like looking at the yeads. Here's like

1816
01:44:13,280 --> 01:44:15,920
Speaker 2: they're just they make her look like, oh, like she

1817
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:19,920
Speaker 2: has like two brain cells. Yeah, yeah, like it which

1818
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:22,320
Speaker 2: is again, which is like doesn't feel like a very

1819
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 2: Again it's I know it's a different film industry than

1820
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:29,080
Speaker 2: we cover, but it's like it felt weird to me

1821
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:31,520
Speaker 2: of like twenty twenty two really.

1822
01:44:31,520 --> 01:44:34,760
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, a movie like I have no doubt that

1823
01:44:34,840 --> 01:44:38,320
Speaker 3: men did things like this throughout history, because men are

1824
01:44:38,320 --> 01:44:41,920
Speaker 3: famous for doing scary things to get the attention of women.

1825
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 3: But because this movie came out in twenty twenty two,

1826
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:47,599
Speaker 3: you would think that there would be a more modern

1827
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:50,439
Speaker 3: version of that where at the very least, like if

1828
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:53,519
Speaker 3: rom Is gonna throw the nails, Beam would be like

1829
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:57,120
Speaker 3: what you can't just be flattening women's tires.

1830
01:44:56,720 --> 01:45:02,160
Speaker 2: Bro, Like, yeah, yeah, this movie is takes so many

1831
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:06,280
Speaker 2: creative liberties that in moments where it's like, no, I

1832
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:08,200
Speaker 2: think that that is I'm not saying that this is

1833
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:10,479
Speaker 2: something that SSR has ever spoken to or as far

1834
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:12,599
Speaker 2: as I can tell, Ben asked about, because it is

1835
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:15,439
Speaker 2: like this is very much our wheelhouse of like what

1836
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:17,720
Speaker 2: we what we would talk to him about. But like

1837
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:21,559
Speaker 2: I feel like in big movies like this, this is

1838
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 2: a very broad statement and feel free to disagree, but

1839
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:29,960
Speaker 2: like it seems like it's only in moments like that

1840
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:33,879
Speaker 2: that creatives will like who maybe are not very interested

1841
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:38,240
Speaker 2: in telling women's stories or anyone, but men's stories will

1842
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 2: be like, well that was the history. That's that would

1843
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:43,920
Speaker 2: that's historically accurate, Like yeah, you also had a guy

1844
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:48,639
Speaker 2: like beat a tiger, Like why is your stickler? Yeah,

1845
01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:51,280
Speaker 2: Like why is this the place that you are sticking to?

1846
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 2: Like well, this is how it would have gone in

1847
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 2: this state, and you're just like all right, man, sure

1848
01:45:57,200 --> 01:45:57,880
Speaker 2: fucking sure.

1849
01:45:58,040 --> 01:46:02,520
Speaker 3: And speaking of not being interested in telling women's stories,

1850
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:06,560
Speaker 3: there are a number of women who fought for Indian independence,

1851
01:46:07,320 --> 01:46:11,360
Speaker 3: though as per usual, their stories are usually not told

1852
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:18,160
Speaker 3: history tends to erase them, and media about Indian freedom fighters,

1853
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:23,640
Speaker 3: like RRR tends to focus on men and ignore women's contributions.

1854
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 3: I'm pulling from scholarly journal Wikipedia, of course, but just

1855
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:34,720
Speaker 3: to just to name a few. Prita Lata Wadidar was

1856
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:40,840
Speaker 3: a member of an Indian Republican army who died after

1857
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:46,559
Speaker 3: leading a siege a successful siege on a European club

1858
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:53,360
Speaker 3: in Chittagong. Sur Genie Nadou was an Indian political activist

1859
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:57,680
Speaker 3: and poet. She was a proponent of civil rights, women's emancipation,

1860
01:46:58,000 --> 01:47:05,160
Speaker 3: and anti imperialist ideas. Ronnie Lakshmibe was a leading figure

1861
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:09,000
Speaker 3: of the Indian Rebellion of eighteen fifty seven and became

1862
01:47:09,200 --> 01:47:14,360
Speaker 3: a symbol of resistance to the British Raj for Indian nationalists.

1863
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:18,479
Speaker 3: I don't know if that means the same thing as well.

1864
01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:21,040
Speaker 3: I think it means, but maybe I don't know anyway.

1865
01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:26,799
Speaker 3: And then there is Katsturba Gandhi who was a political

1866
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:31,400
Speaker 3: activist married to Mohandas Gandhi and with her husband and son,

1867
01:47:31,520 --> 01:47:37,639
Speaker 3: she was involved in the independence movement for India. So

1868
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:42,000
Speaker 3: those are just a handful I'm sure there were many

1869
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:45,320
Speaker 3: more leaders of the movement. And then also just again,

1870
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:48,639
Speaker 3: women's contributions to a movement like this in general are

1871
01:47:48,680 --> 01:47:52,960
Speaker 3: still crucial, but their stories are often never told. Even

1872
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:56,519
Speaker 3: if they weren't like leaders of the rebellion, women were

1873
01:47:56,560 --> 01:48:02,320
Speaker 3: still doing shit and people often ignore those narratives.

1874
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:05,800
Speaker 2: So yes, and I feel like that is something that

1875
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 2: again it's like, it's so tricky. Again. We just covered

1876
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:14,240
Speaker 2: the woman King, and it seems like there is just

1877
01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:19,759
Speaker 2: now there is some or more interest in portraying women

1878
01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:21,679
Speaker 2: through history like this, which I think is a really

1879
01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:24,479
Speaker 2: good thing. And but then the tricky part of that

1880
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:29,200
Speaker 2: is like, Okay, I don't know, this is kind of

1881
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:31,680
Speaker 2: a discussion for another day, and this isn't about the

1882
01:48:31,720 --> 01:48:33,920
Speaker 2: women King specifically, but I always worry where it's like, oh,

1883
01:48:34,280 --> 01:48:37,320
Speaker 2: now we're going to show like war heroes who were women,

1884
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:39,200
Speaker 2: And then it's like, okay, but are we gonna undo

1885
01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:42,519
Speaker 2: any of the really fucked up like narratives that happen

1886
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 2: in war movies and the glarification and the nationalism or

1887
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:47,800
Speaker 2: are we just going to leave that as is? And

1888
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:52,680
Speaker 2: now it's it's like a I'm so sick of this, right,

1889
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 2: But like it's like a girl bossy kind of thing

1890
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 2: of like, well, now we're going to show women perpetuating

1891
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:02,640
Speaker 2: women can be war law words, right, oppressive war likes, Like,

1892
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's a broad just gut feeling that

1893
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:10,519
Speaker 2: I feel like we've seen that happen before in various genres,

1894
01:49:10,520 --> 01:49:13,800
Speaker 2: and now it's seems like it may have become time

1895
01:49:13,840 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 2: for this genre. So it's interesting. I don't know, I

1896
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:21,479
Speaker 2: don't know. We're all we're you know the world's can

1897
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:24,000
Speaker 2: explode in like ten years is really hard to say.

1898
01:49:24,320 --> 01:49:28,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, did you have any other thoughts on the

1899
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:29,040
Speaker 2: women of that?

1900
01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:33,320
Speaker 3: On the women's But I do want to talk about

1901
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:38,839
Speaker 3: something that often gets discussed in movies about male friendship

1902
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 3: or where there are men who are friends, which is

1903
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:48,120
Speaker 3: everyone is like they're gay. We've talked about this before.

1904
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:49,839
Speaker 2: On It's like our Top Gun episode.

1905
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,160
Speaker 3: We've talked about it. I think Fast and the Furious

1906
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:55,960
Speaker 3: we talked about it. It's like the Frodo and Sam

1907
01:49:56,040 --> 01:49:59,479
Speaker 3: from Lord of the Rings thing. Yes, yeah, where close

1908
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:03,440
Speaker 3: male friend ships are often perceived as having queer undertones

1909
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:08,320
Speaker 3: because male platonic closeness is so foreign to people that

1910
01:50:08,360 --> 01:50:12,200
Speaker 3: when people see it They often ascribe a romantic or

1911
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:15,720
Speaker 3: sexual component to it, which might be true for some

1912
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:19,639
Speaker 3: male friendships, but it's often like the default reaction where

1913
01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:22,200
Speaker 3: so many people who I know who saw this movie

1914
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:26,280
Speaker 3: were like, oh, Ram and Beam like oh, they're so

1915
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:30,160
Speaker 3: gay for each other, which like that being the default

1916
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:32,040
Speaker 3: reaction is complicated.

1917
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:34,720
Speaker 2: It's like an onion discussion because you might want to

1918
01:50:34,720 --> 01:50:39,880
Speaker 2: be like no, no, straight, but also it's like they're yeah,

1919
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:42,320
Speaker 2: It's like I feel like that. I don't know.

1920
01:50:42,439 --> 01:50:48,000
Speaker 3: It doesn't allow for the normalization of close platonic male friendship.

1921
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:53,519
Speaker 2: Exactly with any sexuality, like across the spectrum, like you

1922
01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:57,120
Speaker 2: should be able to have intimacy with your friend without

1923
01:50:57,160 --> 01:51:03,120
Speaker 2: it being implied as romantic, and especially with men again,

1924
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:08,000
Speaker 2: like across the sexuality spectrum men, I feel the way

1925
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:12,800
Speaker 2: men are generally socially conditioned globally with few exceptions, it

1926
01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:16,640
Speaker 2: makes it difficult or there is this like implication of

1927
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:20,160
Speaker 2: you should be ashamed to have an intimate and I

1928
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:24,240
Speaker 2: mean like emotionally intimate friendship with another man or often

1929
01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:28,479
Speaker 2: another person at all, because we you know of deep

1930
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:33,200
Speaker 2: platonic friendships between men and women. Is also always like oh,

1931
01:51:33,280 --> 01:51:35,519
Speaker 2: you guys are in love with each other and it's like.

1932
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:37,640
Speaker 4: Not.

1933
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:40,800
Speaker 2: And like the shift of.

1934
01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:45,479
Speaker 3: This reaction I think has gone a bit from like, oh,

1935
01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:49,840
Speaker 3: they're so gay and isn't that gross more to just like, oh,

1936
01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:53,680
Speaker 3: there's two guys and they're gay, and like, did I

1937
01:51:53,760 --> 01:51:55,479
Speaker 3: want to see Beam and rom kiss?

1938
01:51:56,200 --> 01:51:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1939
01:51:56,520 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 2: Kind of.

1940
01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,280
Speaker 3: So it's complicated, but also.

1941
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:03,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it's like I agree with that

1942
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:08,440
Speaker 2: you're saying. It's like, just normalizing a strong, deep, platonic

1943
01:52:08,439 --> 01:52:10,920
Speaker 2: friendship is like a worthy thing to do, and I

1944
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:13,320
Speaker 2: feel like this movie does. It is one of the

1945
01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:16,439
Speaker 2: things that this movie does very successfully. The idea of

1946
01:52:16,520 --> 01:52:21,559
Speaker 2: like loyalty to your friend is an important thing. I

1947
01:52:21,560 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 2: think that that's really nice. I think it's good.

1948
01:52:26,840 --> 01:52:26,920
Speaker 4: Oh.

1949
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:29,839
Speaker 2: Also, the last thing I want to say was anytime

1950
01:52:29,920 --> 01:52:31,680
Speaker 2: I think that, like, yeah, in the movies that we

1951
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:35,799
Speaker 2: grew up with, and this doesn't really happen anymore except

1952
01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:39,599
Speaker 2: if it's like still happening on like network TV or something.

1953
01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:44,040
Speaker 2: But anytime there's you know, two, I'm thinking of like

1954
01:52:44,120 --> 01:52:47,320
Speaker 2: peak jud Appatow movies, where it's like anytime, like men

1955
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:49,559
Speaker 2: can be friends in those movies, but they have to

1956
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:54,160
Speaker 2: constantly qualify that they're straight. Anytime they experience a moment

1957
01:52:54,240 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 2: of like if they hug, if they if they touch,

1958
01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:01,960
Speaker 2: they're like what no, like just totally not like kind

1959
01:53:02,040 --> 01:53:07,400
Speaker 2: of god, what a what a distressing time that was? Anyways,

1960
01:53:07,920 --> 01:53:10,600
Speaker 2: not the case for Ram and Beam. They openly express

1961
01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:13,920
Speaker 2: their affection for each other by spending time together, by

1962
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:16,559
Speaker 2: going on day trips. By I mean, they are like

1963
01:53:17,200 --> 01:53:20,160
Speaker 2: physically expressive with the way they love each other. And

1964
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:24,280
Speaker 2: also like, because the tone of this movie is so

1965
01:53:24,280 --> 01:53:28,639
Speaker 2: soap opera, like, these men are certainly emoting, you don't

1966
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:31,040
Speaker 2: seek I think like a lot of Western movies show

1967
01:53:31,640 --> 01:53:35,719
Speaker 2: like a male protagonist swallowing the pain and it becomes

1968
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:37,800
Speaker 2: a fucking brick and his stomach and you're like, wow,

1969
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:42,679
Speaker 2: that's acting. Meanwhile, Rom is like, yeah.

1970
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:46,360
Speaker 3: They're they're both crying at different points like this, They're

1971
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:51,160
Speaker 3: having emotions besides rage, because like rage, especially in like

1972
01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:54,800
Speaker 3: Hollywood movies, is like the only acceptable or like has

1973
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:58,400
Speaker 3: been considered to be the only acceptable true emotion that

1974
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:03,719
Speaker 3: men are allowed to express and feel. But guess what, everyone,

1975
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:07,800
Speaker 3: the full range of emotions is available to people of

1976
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:12,520
Speaker 3: all genders everyone. But also Rom often expresses his emotions

1977
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:16,600
Speaker 3: by punching a punching bag. So there's that. Do you

1978
01:54:16,840 --> 01:54:20,040
Speaker 3: have anything else you want to talk about?

1979
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:23,839
Speaker 2: I don't really think so. Yeah. I think that that

1980
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:27,799
Speaker 2: that We've had a pretty comprehensive discussion. Also, listeners, especially

1981
01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:32,320
Speaker 2: our Indian listeners, we recognize that we've probably gotten some

1982
01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:35,400
Speaker 2: stuff wrong in this episode. We did our best in

1983
01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:38,880
Speaker 2: terms of prep and all of that, but we are

1984
01:54:38,960 --> 01:54:42,040
Speaker 2: very interested in what particularly our Indian listeners have to

1985
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:45,280
Speaker 2: say about this. Yes, please, and just in general, because

1986
01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:49,320
Speaker 2: we always want to know what you think and tackling

1987
01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:52,680
Speaker 2: a big historical epic with which you are not familiar

1988
01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:55,560
Speaker 2: with the history can be kind of tricky. So if

1989
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 2: there's anything that we missed, please let us know and

1990
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:02,440
Speaker 2: we will, you know, do do what we always do. Indeed, Yeah,

1991
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:03,440
Speaker 2: I think that's all I've got.

1992
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:07,680
Speaker 3: Ah same. Does this movie past the Bechdel test?

1993
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:08,240
Speaker 2: No.

1994
01:55:09,240 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 3: There are a few small moments where women interact or

1995
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:18,440
Speaker 3: female characters interact, such as when Jenny gives Molly a

1996
01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:22,320
Speaker 3: few gifts but Molly doesn't respond. No. There's also a

1997
01:55:22,360 --> 01:55:27,760
Speaker 3: scene at the party where a lady says hey Jenny.

1998
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:33,400
Speaker 3: Jenny says, hi, Maggie, how's Max. Maggie says goddamn. Oh

1999
01:55:33,440 --> 01:55:35,640
Speaker 3: he's great, and Jenny says wonderful.

2000
01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:39,280
Speaker 2: I guess that Hi, Jenny, high Maggie. But that's not

2001
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:40,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't count.

2002
01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:42,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, because immediately she's like, how's Max, And it's like,

2003
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:44,720
Speaker 3: who's Max? Who cares?

2004
01:55:44,840 --> 01:55:48,840
Speaker 2: Like what do you? That's also with Jenny. That's another

2005
01:55:48,880 --> 01:55:51,000
Speaker 2: way that Jenny is shown to be kind. She's the

2006
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:54,680
Speaker 2: only person who's kind to a child they've kidnapped. You're like,

2007
01:55:55,040 --> 01:55:58,160
Speaker 2: that's not, that's not enough. I don't know. I think

2008
01:55:58,200 --> 01:56:02,440
Speaker 2: I'm pretty frad I our captive address, and you're like,

2009
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:04,440
Speaker 2: fuck you anyways.

2010
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:10,800
Speaker 3: Okay, well, let's move on to the perfect metric our

2011
01:56:10,920 --> 01:56:13,440
Speaker 3: nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale

2012
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:16,120
Speaker 3: of zero to five nipples based on looking at the

2013
01:56:16,200 --> 01:56:21,360
Speaker 3: movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Okay, let me talk

2014
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:24,920
Speaker 3: through this. So on one hand, Okay, this is a

2015
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:29,520
Speaker 3: movie about Indian people rising up against British oppression and

2016
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 3: imperial rule in colonization and obliterating it, which is very

2017
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:38,080
Speaker 3: cathartic to see, and it's very exciting. It's a fun

2018
01:56:38,120 --> 01:56:43,000
Speaker 3: movie and the music and the two men are so hot,

2019
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:44,560
Speaker 3: and well that's.

2020
01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:45,960
Speaker 2: An intersectional feminist win.

2021
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:51,680
Speaker 3: And yes, So those are the good parts of the movie,

2022
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:57,160
Speaker 3: but as we've discussed, it upholds the status quo of

2023
01:56:57,400 --> 01:57:03,440
Speaker 3: the current scale, very political climate of India, and it's

2024
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:08,040
Speaker 3: more or less serving as Indian nationalists propaganda. I also

2025
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:12,200
Speaker 3: want to be clear that our criticism of right wing

2026
01:57:12,320 --> 01:57:15,440
Speaker 3: Hindu centric Indian government is not a criticism of the

2027
01:57:15,520 --> 01:57:18,840
Speaker 3: Hindu religion. I'm sure our listeners understand that, but I

2028
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 3: just want to make that abundantly clear that we are

2029
01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:28,920
Speaker 3: criticizing oppressive fasci governments and political ideologies. Yes, so the

2030
01:57:29,200 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 3: kind of like upholding of the status quo and which

2031
01:57:33,080 --> 01:57:37,520
Speaker 3: again is a scary status quo, along with the movies

2032
01:57:38,120 --> 01:57:44,280
Speaker 3: treatment of women and indigenous people being very abysmal. I

2033
01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 3: also wanted to point out that again Comaron Beim was

2034
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:53,400
Speaker 3: an indigenous person of the gand tribe and tr Junior,

2035
01:57:53,440 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 3: who plays him is not a Gandhi actor. So there's that.

2036
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:03,480
Speaker 3: But then you see Governor Scott's blood splatter over the

2037
01:58:03,480 --> 01:58:06,360
Speaker 3: words the Sun never sets on the British Empire, and.

2038
01:58:06,280 --> 01:58:10,160
Speaker 2: You're like, WHOA, right, it's I mean it is. I

2039
01:58:10,200 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 2: think that like this movie is so unseubtle too its

2040
01:58:14,200 --> 01:58:19,120
Speaker 2: strength and it's detriment. Yes, and its strength is certainly

2041
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:24,400
Speaker 2: like best shown with its attitudes towards imperialism and British colonialism,

2042
01:58:24,600 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 2: and that all plays very well. But yeah, in terms

2043
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 2: of it having propaganda qualities, right, if not just being propaganda,

2044
01:58:33,280 --> 01:58:36,400
Speaker 2: it is kind of I don't know. Yeah, it is

2045
01:58:36,480 --> 01:58:38,760
Speaker 2: kind of freaky that like this movie can come to

2046
01:58:38,840 --> 01:58:42,360
Speaker 2: the come to a Western audience and like it didn't

2047
01:58:42,520 --> 01:58:45,240
Speaker 2: register for I think a lot of Western fans of

2048
01:58:45,280 --> 01:58:50,000
Speaker 2: this movie for sure, and so it's scary.

2049
01:58:49,960 --> 01:58:53,080
Speaker 3: It is scary and it's complicated. With all of that

2050
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:57,000
Speaker 3: in mind, I think i'll give it like one and

2051
01:58:57,000 --> 01:59:02,000
Speaker 3: a half nipples. Still love this movie. I'm I'm gonna

2052
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:08,280
Speaker 3: keep revisiting it, knowing its issues and knowing its many problems.

2053
01:59:09,320 --> 01:59:12,120
Speaker 3: But as far as like entertainment value goes, it's a

2054
01:59:12,160 --> 01:59:13,680
Speaker 3: ten out of ten on the Rampo meter.

2055
01:59:14,160 --> 01:59:16,640
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, it's like seven movies and one. It's

2056
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:17,920
Speaker 2: pretty fucking cool.

2057
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:20,240
Speaker 3: So there's a lot to love about this movie. But

2058
01:59:20,520 --> 01:59:27,000
Speaker 3: we also, as always, we are going to acknowledge the

2059
01:59:27,040 --> 01:59:31,840
Speaker 3: things that must be criticized about any movie. So one

2060
01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:38,360
Speaker 3: point five nipples. I'll give one to Sita because I

2061
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:41,240
Speaker 3: just wanted so much more for her.

2062
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:42,920
Speaker 2: She could have done two things.

2063
01:59:43,240 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 3: She could have done two, maybe even three. Now, let's

2064
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,680
Speaker 3: but reason, I'll calm down.

2065
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 2: That would be one thing per hour. Caitlin, I don't

2066
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:57,120
Speaker 2: know that's too much. Uh.

2067
01:59:57,160 --> 02:00:02,160
Speaker 3: And I'll give my half nipple to Malley. What's her name, Twinkle,

2068
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:06,000
Speaker 3: Twinkle Sharma. Oh my god, what a name, Twinkle?

2069
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:07,000
Speaker 2: Incredible?

2070
02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:08,800
Speaker 3: What say you, Jamie?

2071
02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:12,480
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm coming down kind of hard. I'm

2072
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:16,760
Speaker 2: going to give it one in terms again, entertainment value, gigantic.

2073
02:00:17,200 --> 02:00:21,160
Speaker 2: Do I enjoy watching the movie? Yes, the I mean,

2074
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:24,600
Speaker 2: for kind of our classic spectel cast purposes. Women are

2075
02:00:24,640 --> 02:00:27,840
Speaker 2: in no way centered and they're like you're saying, like

2076
02:00:27,960 --> 02:00:31,680
Speaker 2: in like, there have been many women who have fought

2077
02:00:31,680 --> 02:00:36,000
Speaker 2: for freedom in India, And you know, this movie sort

2078
02:00:36,040 --> 02:00:39,080
Speaker 2: of casts a very wide, very broad, very familiar view

2079
02:00:39,120 --> 02:00:43,240
Speaker 2: of women as docile, domestic waiting for men to get home.

2080
02:00:43,480 --> 02:00:46,160
Speaker 2: The reason we fight certainly not the people who would

2081
02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:48,840
Speaker 2: be allowed to do anything. So in that way, I

2082
02:00:48,840 --> 02:00:51,320
Speaker 2: thought it was like a very kind of traditional view

2083
02:00:51,520 --> 02:00:56,280
Speaker 2: of gender. The way that Jenny's character is positioned as

2084
02:00:56,320 --> 02:01:00,480
Speaker 2: the one nice colonizer is weird. I don't think that

2085
02:01:00,480 --> 02:01:05,280
Speaker 2: that's an intersectional win of any sort. And also I

2086
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:07,240
Speaker 2: think that I'm coming down kind of hard on it

2087
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:11,920
Speaker 2: because we've covered these historical epics recently and in terms

2088
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:16,640
Speaker 2: of intersectionality, and no movie is going to get history

2089
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:21,360
Speaker 2: exactly right. And it's not the duty of fiction movies

2090
02:01:21,440 --> 02:01:24,920
Speaker 2: to be documentaries. I'm not implying that, but there is

2091
02:01:25,080 --> 02:01:29,920
Speaker 2: I think, like our discussion today speaks to like when

2092
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 2: you get history so wrong or there's a lot of

2093
02:01:35,040 --> 02:01:39,880
Speaker 2: omission like that can perpetuate harm against marginalized communities, which

2094
02:01:39,920 --> 02:01:42,840
Speaker 2: is what our whole contextual discussion was. And so I

2095
02:01:42,960 --> 02:01:46,280
Speaker 2: feel and again I know that it's like I am

2096
02:01:46,320 --> 02:01:49,240
Speaker 2: not well versed in these issues at all. I'm still

2097
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:51,120
Speaker 2: a ton to learn, and a lot of this is

2098
02:01:51,200 --> 02:01:55,240
Speaker 2: new information. So if I'm coming down too hard, I apologize,

2099
02:01:55,680 --> 02:01:59,920
Speaker 2: But from the information I have presently, it just seems

2100
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:03,760
Speaker 2: like this, this movie gets history or willfully emits a

2101
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:08,560
Speaker 2: lot of important history in a way that doesn't you know,

2102
02:02:09,000 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 2: it like erases a lot of marginalized communities and uplifts

2103
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:18,440
Speaker 2: some harmful status quos, which a lot of movies do.

2104
02:02:18,680 --> 02:02:21,160
Speaker 2: But because again, like we talked about this in The

2105
02:02:21,160 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 2: Women King episode two, when you involve actual historical figures.

2106
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:29,200
Speaker 2: That's when it gets super super super messy. Yeah, and

2107
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:34,080
Speaker 2: so that is sort of where I stand on that.

2108
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:37,919
Speaker 2: It's a super fun movie to watch. It's really exciting.

2109
02:02:38,320 --> 02:02:41,560
Speaker 2: I like, and the live viewing experience. Someone threw a

2110
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:43,840
Speaker 2: fucking like inflatable tiger at the screen.

2111
02:02:43,920 --> 02:02:45,880
Speaker 3: It was just like it was a lot people get

2112
02:02:45,960 --> 02:02:48,640
Speaker 3: up and dance along with the not to not too scene. Like,

2113
02:02:49,440 --> 02:02:53,600
Speaker 3: it's just an an electric viewing experience.

2114
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 2: It's intense, yeah, I mean, and so for the movie

2115
02:02:56,560 --> 02:03:01,320
Speaker 2: going experience, it's fucking unbelievable. Like Russian movie is an

2116
02:03:01,360 --> 02:03:06,280
Speaker 2: incredibly talented filmmaker, but a lot of the writing is

2117
02:03:06,320 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 2: a bit concerning. And so I'm gonna give it one nipple.

2118
02:03:10,120 --> 02:03:13,560
Speaker 2: I apologize if that's too harsh, and I'm gonna give

2119
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:16,640
Speaker 2: it to Sorry, I guess I'm gonna give it to

2120
02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:19,600
Speaker 2: I'll split it between Molly and her mom because it

2121
02:03:19,720 --> 02:03:23,920
Speaker 2: is such a brutal two punch opening scene and I'm

2122
02:03:23,920 --> 02:03:26,640
Speaker 2: glad that they are reunited. I really thought that they

2123
02:03:26,680 --> 02:03:29,760
Speaker 2: killed her mom, and I am. The movie is so

2124
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:33,280
Speaker 2: long that sometimes I forget that she does live between

2125
02:03:33,280 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 2: the beginning and the end, because.

2126
02:03:34,440 --> 02:03:36,840
Speaker 3: You only see her in the opening sequence and then

2127
02:03:36,960 --> 02:03:41,320
Speaker 3: in the credit sequence like yeah, she gets brought back

2128
02:03:41,360 --> 02:03:44,839
Speaker 3: to screen after the movie has ended and they're playing

2129
02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:47,640
Speaker 3: like the big credit song and dance number.

2130
02:03:47,960 --> 02:03:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm just glad that Molly got to reunite with

2131
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:53,640
Speaker 2: her whole family. I think that that is very It's

2132
02:03:53,640 --> 02:03:58,360
Speaker 2: what she deserved. So yeah, give it, give it one nipple. Sorry,

2133
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:01,400
Speaker 2: I love you, happy birthday.

2134
02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:03,600
Speaker 3: I mean I give it only a half nipple more

2135
02:04:03,640 --> 02:04:07,600
Speaker 3: than you, so we're pretty much the same. But thank you.

2136
02:04:07,680 --> 02:04:08,720
Speaker 3: It is my birthday.

2137
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:15,920
Speaker 2: Media, it's so complicated. Well, I'm covering Minion's Rise of

2138
02:04:15,960 --> 02:04:17,640
Speaker 2: Group for my birthday and we're gonna have a hell

2139
02:04:17,680 --> 02:04:18,120
Speaker 2: of a time.

2140
02:04:18,520 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, I can't wait. Yep, listeners, that's our

2141
02:04:23,160 --> 02:04:26,480
Speaker 3: r r r r r r r r r r

2142
02:04:26,640 --> 02:04:30,919
Speaker 3: r or thanks again to our guest with ash Baboo.

2143
02:04:31,240 --> 02:04:35,600
Speaker 3: Make sure to check out there writing and you can

2144
02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:39,840
Speaker 3: follow us. Hey, you know what, because it's my birthday,

2145
02:04:39,960 --> 02:04:43,080
Speaker 3: you can follow me on social media?

2146
02:04:43,160 --> 02:04:47,680
Speaker 2: Oh such as unfollow me in observiance of Kaitlyn's birthday.

2147
02:04:48,120 --> 02:04:50,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, take your follow take your follow away from Jamie

2148
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:53,800
Speaker 3: and give it to me. Just kidding. You can follow

2149
02:04:54,480 --> 02:04:58,480
Speaker 3: anyone you want. But especially me on my special day.

2150
02:05:00,160 --> 02:05:03,640
Speaker 3: I'm trying to be more active on TikTok, which I

2151
02:05:03,680 --> 02:05:08,280
Speaker 3: don't know how to feel about. I'm less active on

2152
02:05:08,360 --> 02:05:12,920
Speaker 3: Twitter than I've ever been before, except to convince people

2153
02:05:12,960 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 3: to cast me in Paddington three, which is at the

2154
02:05:17,320 --> 02:05:20,360
Speaker 3: time of this recording, and we're recording pretty far out

2155
02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:22,960
Speaker 3: but so hopefully this doesn't change by the time this

2156
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:26,920
Speaker 3: episode comes out. But production on Paddington three is slated

2157
02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:31,200
Speaker 3: to begin in July, so there's still time to cast me,

2158
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:34,879
Speaker 3: and then Instagram and I'm at all of those places

2159
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:38,960
Speaker 3: at Caitlin Deronte, please follow me.

2160
02:05:39,240 --> 02:05:43,480
Speaker 2: You can also follow our Patreon aka Maatreon at patreon

2161
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:46,120
Speaker 2: dot com slash bachtel cast. Five bucks a month gets

2162
02:05:46,160 --> 02:05:50,400
Speaker 2: you a number of bonus episodes.

2163
02:05:49,840 --> 02:05:51,680
Speaker 5: And that number is too I don't know why I

2164
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,240
Speaker 5: put it like that, And you also can do per

2165
02:05:54,280 --> 02:05:57,560
Speaker 5: month per month, and yes, you get access to I

2166
02:05:57,600 --> 02:05:59,800
Speaker 5: think close to one hundred and fifty back episode cat

2167
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:02,720
Speaker 5: logs at this point, and then we'll be covering some

2168
02:06:02,800 --> 02:06:07,400
Speaker 5: of Caitlin's thaves on the Matreon this month, so check

2169
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:07,800
Speaker 5: that out.

2170
02:06:07,840 --> 02:06:10,760
Speaker 2: You can also follow the Bechdel Cast on Instagram and

2171
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:12,800
Speaker 2: Twitter at Bechdel.

2172
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:16,680
Speaker 3: Cast, and you can buy our merch at teapublic dot

2173
02:06:16,720 --> 02:06:20,040
Speaker 3: com slash the Bechdel Cast. Treat yourself to a little

2174
02:06:20,440 --> 02:06:23,760
Speaker 3: t shirt, a little phone case, a little little pillow,

2175
02:06:24,080 --> 02:06:27,520
Speaker 3: whatever you want. It's my birthday, so you treat yourself

2176
02:06:29,200 --> 02:06:32,080
Speaker 3: in observance of the national holiday. Yes, yes, wonderful.

2177
02:06:32,160 --> 02:06:35,720
Speaker 2: Okay, well there's the episode We love you so much.

2178
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:38,800
Speaker 2: Go have a nice springtime day, do it. Oh, also,

2179
02:06:38,880 --> 02:06:41,040
Speaker 2: my book comes out next week. Oh my god, yes,

2180
02:06:41,240 --> 02:06:43,880
Speaker 2: rad Dog May twenty third. We're gonna be covering it

2181
02:06:44,280 --> 02:06:46,840
Speaker 2: in our well, not the book. We're gonna be covering

2182
02:06:46,840 --> 02:06:50,960
Speaker 2: sausage Party next week. Sorry, bye bye