1
00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,560
Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grosso in New

2
00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,920
Speaker 1: York and I'm Greg's Store in Washington. Charlotte police officer

3
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: Bentley Vinson will not face charges in the death of

4
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,239
Speaker 1: Keith's Keith Scott, who was shot on September twenty after

5
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: he emerged from his SUV in a parking lot outside

6
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,720
Speaker 1: his apartment. The shooting of Scott, who is black, set

7
00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,919
Speaker 1: off rioting in street demonstrations fueled by a video of

8
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 1: the confrontation captured by Scott's wife. District Attorney Andrew Murray

9
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: said yesterday that Scott had a gun in his hand

10
00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: and ignored at least ten commands to drop the weapon.

11
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 1: Is my opinion that Al Sir Benson acted lawfully when

12
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:47,159
Speaker 1: he shot Mr Scott. He acted lawfully. With us to

13
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,560
Speaker 1: talk about the prosecutor's decision is Cammi Schabis, a former

14
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,680
Speaker 1: prosecutor herself who is now a professor and director of

15
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,400
Speaker 1: the Criminal Justice Program at Wake Wake Forest University School

16
00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,880
Speaker 1: of Law. Cammy, thanks for joining us. Based on what

17
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,520
Speaker 1: you've seen and heard, did the prosecutor did Mr Murray

18
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,520
Speaker 1: make the right decision? Well? Thank you, Thank you very

19
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,480
Speaker 1: much for having me I think that this is UM,

20
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,560
Speaker 1: this is a very difficult case. But you have had

21
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,440
Speaker 1: a too long, two months long investigation with lots of

22
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,679
Speaker 1: experts looking at this, and it appears if you're if

23
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,960
Speaker 1: we look at the law regarding excessive uses of force,

24
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,920
Speaker 1: and that's a case called Graham versus Connor. UM. Actually

25
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,960
Speaker 1: the facts of that case actually in Charlotte as well.

26
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 1: But Graham versus Connor tells us that you know, if

27
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: you have a suspect who UM is armed or as

28
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,000
Speaker 1: approaching officers, there are a lot of different factors that

29
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 1: you can take into account UM, in order that that

30
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,680
Speaker 1: officer would not be UM would not be deemed to

31
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 1: have UH used successive force. I think that that that's right, UM,

32
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 1: But I think that there this case underscores a lot

33
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 1: of other issues that even though the officer is not

34
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: going to be charged here, there's going to be quite

35
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,800
Speaker 1: a bit that the Charlotte Police Department UH has to

36
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: explain to the residents and a lot of healing that's

37
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 1: going to have to happen there. Cammy Murray gave a detailed,

38
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,040
Speaker 1: incredibly detailed news conference, almost like a closing argument at

39
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,320
Speaker 1: a trial. UM. He had all kinds of evidence and

40
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,440
Speaker 1: why did he feel the need to cover every base? Well,

41
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,040
Speaker 1: I think and I think that he made this clear

42
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,240
Speaker 1: um in his and in his comments that there was

43
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 1: a lot of uh statements or things in the press

44
00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 1: or on social media, um that were taken as as

45
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:54,839
Speaker 1: as facts. UM that upon further scrutiny, UM, we we're

46
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,000
Speaker 1: not factual perhaps and um some of this um you

47
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,880
Speaker 1: know included us eatenance from various witnesses and then um

48
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:08,360
Speaker 1: different um accounts that had been changed. And so I

49
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:13,480
Speaker 1: think that um, it was his responsibility uh to clarify

50
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: uh what the investigation uncovered. And I think that um

51
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:27,359
Speaker 1: there there there were very differing, very many different accounts, um.

52
00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 1: And then you have the body camera evidence, which again

53
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,880
Speaker 1: when we think about things that we can learn um

54
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 1: from this case, is that you know, body camera evidence

55
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 1: dash came evidence. It is not going to be a

56
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 1: panacea for police reform, and in fact, it can in

57
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: some instances, UM confused confused things, canny toss what what

58
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 1: you saw as the key question or questions in the

59
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: inquiry into whether there should be charges? Now, North Carolina,

60
00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,160
Speaker 1: I gather, is an open carry states. So the fact

61
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 1: Mr Scott had a gun with him, UM that that

62
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 1: by itself isn't enough to constitute a threat to police.

63
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,720
Speaker 1: What was it that UH District Attorney Murray had to

64
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,320
Speaker 1: decide in terms of whether or not there was an

65
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,440
Speaker 1: actual threat that warranted the force that was used. And

66
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,320
Speaker 1: I think that's a very important point. You know, when

67
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,200
Speaker 1: when this incident first occurred, UH, there were many accounts

68
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,560
Speaker 1: that you know, they're suspect UM they found a gun

69
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,279
Speaker 1: at the scene. And it is important to understand that

70
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 1: in North Carolina being an open carry state, officers UM

71
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 1: and the officers are trained with how to deal with

72
00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,680
Speaker 1: individuals who may be armed. You UM, the the simple

73
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 1: UH fact that a weapon UH is present does not

74
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 1: allow you to shoot on site. What I think would

75
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 1: have been important to the inquiry here is that was

76
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 1: Scott holding a weapon UM or did he have very

77
00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,400
Speaker 1: easy access to weapon that could have endangered officers? And

78
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: what we do know, we do see this on the tape,

79
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,120
Speaker 1: is that the officers made multiple UM multiple commands for

80
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,039
Speaker 1: him to drop the weapon. And so if he did

81
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: indeed have one and he was told to drop the

82
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,279
Speaker 1: weapon and didn't do so, that again would have I

83
00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,120
Speaker 1: think played into the decision that that force was lawful.

84
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 1: Kemmy Murray said that Scott never raised the gun at

85
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,280
Speaker 1: the officers. Does that signal that there was time for

86
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 1: de escalation other de escalation tactics to have been used.

87
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,240
Speaker 1: There were four other officers and they didn't feel the

88
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,599
Speaker 1: need to shoot. Yes, I think that that that that

89
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,839
Speaker 1: and that's the question I think that many residents, many

90
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,839
Speaker 1: community members have and really, you know, a question that

91
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 1: we should all be asking is are there ways that

92
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 1: we can end these encounters with out the loss of

93
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,840
Speaker 1: human life? However, when we're when you're thinking about and

94
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: and now I'm talking strictly about the law UM and

95
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,120
Speaker 1: again going back to those UM some of the factors

96
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,479
Speaker 1: identified in the Grand versus Connor case. Why were the

97
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,479
Speaker 1: officers at the scene of the crime. Does the suspect

98
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: have a weapon and what is he doing with it? Um?

99
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 1: What we hear a lot of times is from officers

100
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,920
Speaker 1: is that even if you you have a weapon, UM,

101
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,400
Speaker 1: and it's not raised at that moment, it could be

102
00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,919
Speaker 1: at at any given moment, and that's a split second

103
00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: decision that the officer has to make. Uh. The law

104
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 1: is is pretty clear on that. But I think that

105
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,720
Speaker 1: we're in a situation in our country where we need

106
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 1: to we need for UH, maybe policy the law to

107
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 1: catch up with policy. There are lots of UH jurisdictions,

108
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,520
Speaker 1: are lots of police departments that have very detailed use

109
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 1: of force continuums. UM, although UM, I suspect that most

110
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: would have allowed out a um IS shooting in this case. Cammy,

111
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 1: you mentioned the misinformation or the apparent misinformation that was

112
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 1: out there on social media that the district attorney took

113
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 1: pains to refute yesterday. UH. His wife had said that

114
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,120
Speaker 1: he didn't own a gun. There was some information that

115
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 1: he had a book in his hand, which apparently was

116
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: not true. UM. And this all led to a couple

117
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: of very difficult nights in Charlotte rioting and the governor

118
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: had to declare a state of emergency. UM. What what

119
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: lessons do we take from that? Was that did the

120
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,679
Speaker 1: community overreact to this before they had the facts? Well?

121
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 1: I think that you know, in any of these situations, UM,

122
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,720
Speaker 1: where no one is going to have all of the

123
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,880
Speaker 1: facts immediately after something occurs, it's going to have to

124
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 1: be a vigorous testing UH in terms of you know,

125
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: an objective investigation. UM. You know, I don't know we

126
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 1: don't know that we know that the witness said her

127
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 1: there was reading a book. We don't know that she

128
00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 1: didn't think that that's what he was doing and that's

129
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 1: what what she said. UM. But at the same at

130
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: the same time, I think, UM, you know, what what

131
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 1: we see is a very very deep seated issues, deep

132
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: seated anger and mis trust, not just within Charlotte, which

133
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 1: actually is a department that I have to say has

134
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 1: made UM in many years, UM, some some strides. UM.

135
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: I feel that this case is absolutely going to be

136
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: a setback, but it has really made some strides in

137
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 1: terms of community policing. But I think that in any event,

138
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 1: we have to kind of take the temperature of you know,

139
00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,240
Speaker 1: of of of what's happening. There's a UM when Michael

140
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 1: Brown was UM was shot and killed by UM Darren

141
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,160
Speaker 1: Wilson in in in Ferguson. I've said to folks there's

142
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,960
Speaker 1: a Ferguson lurking in every community. So you know, there's

143
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,360
Speaker 1: a Charlotte lurking in every community. We we really have

144
00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:04,280
Speaker 1: to make concrete steps towards UH increasing trust between police

145
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 1: departments and communities and having greater community engagement, greater efforts

146
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:15,320
Speaker 1: UH to UH engage in UH in de escalation. And

147
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,680
Speaker 1: there's also the shack can't, can't Cammy, We're gonna have

148
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 1: to leave it there. Thank you so much to our guest,

149
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 1: Cammy Schavis, Professor and director of the Criminal Justice Program

150
00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,360
Speaker 1: at wake Force University's School of Law. Coming up on

151
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,319
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law, we're going to talk about that, the Monuments

152
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 1: clause that you probably never heard of until Donald Trump

153
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,320
Speaker 1: became president. We're gonna learn a little more about what

154
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 1: it means. That's coming up on Bloomberg Law. This is

155
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:39,719
Speaker 1: Bloomberg