1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: A podcast playground. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: On buzzsnight, and this is the Taking a Walk podcast 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: where we love to interview musicians and authors and executives 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 2: and old friends from the radio business. Dave Chachi Dennis. 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 2: He's the president and co founder of Ben'stown, the leading 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: international radio imaging company. He's one of the greatest guys 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: and I can't wait to talk to him on Taking 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: a Walk next. Well, Chauchi, thanks for being on Taking 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: a Walk, albeit virtually, but it's so great to be 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: with you. 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Hell Buzz, thank you so much for having me. Man, 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: it's an honor to be here. 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: We usually are at industry events and at that point 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: it's a little hard to be able to break away 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 3: and do the actual walk, but we could always give 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 3: that a stab. 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: At another point I would love to do so is Grace. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: See you in Vegas at NAB and spending some time 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: with you there. 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: Did you lose the nest egg out there at all? 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? You know, here's the funny thing. My mom loves 22 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: playing the slot machines, and she'd asked how I did 23 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: in Vegas, and I honestly did not have a moment 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: of time to gamble even once. I never put a 25 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: dollar into a machine or on a table. I generally 26 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: do when I go to Vegas, like to play a 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: little bit of craps or blackjack or some slot machines, 28 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: but I just never had a moment to do. 29 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: So what was the best part for you of being 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: at the NAB in Vegas? 31 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: You know, my favorite part buzz is seeing everyone as 32 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: such as yourself and hanging out. And I really had 33 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: a great time at the cocktails and conversation. But as 34 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: far as you know, I guess the best takeaway from 35 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: me in this particular NAB was really just all the 36 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: conversation about AI. 37 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: It's actually really here. 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: It is. It is as we speak, Congress right now 39 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: is grilling the Open AI creator Sam Altman. 40 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: So what's your feeling? Is it something to one thousand 41 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: percent embrace or to walk cautiously towards man? 42 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: That is such a good question. I am of the opinion, 43 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: And let me qualify this for a second. I may 44 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: change my mind an hour from now, because it's really 45 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: hard for me to kind of just get my arms 46 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: wrapped around at all. But we are really just trying 47 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: to learn as much as we possibly can. Gary Wall, 48 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: who I know, you know well, owns the jack format 49 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: really bright Man, and he had said to me this 50 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: reminded him a lot of the dot com era, and 51 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: he had told me he'd actually lost a lot of 52 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: money during the dotcom era because he invested early, and unfortunately, 53 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: a lot of those companies went bust, the pets, dot Com, 54 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: the Alta Vistas of the world. And while Google was 55 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: born out of that era and eBay was born out 56 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: of that era, a lot of companies did not succeed. 57 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: And so he's kind of the opinion, and I agree 58 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: with this is to learn as much as we possibly can, 59 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: try to figure it out, and then learn about how 60 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: we can potentially deploy this for our own you know, 61 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: whether in our particular case, imaging, in production and so forth. 62 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: But I think at this point we're in a mode 63 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: whe're really just trying to learn. What are your thoughts 64 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: on it? 65 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 2: I am always embracing new technology and innovation, so I 66 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 2: look at this as something to try to embrace. I 67 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: just do fear an overdoing effect that is going to 68 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: create this reliance on it that frankly becomes, you know, 69 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: just another reason for there to be less bodies deployed, 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: and that concerns me greatly. 71 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: I agree with that. I read an interesting I think 72 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: was Adage article about the A in AI standing for average. 73 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: At this point, everything that I've seen or heard come 74 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: out of AI as is average. It's impressive, and don't 75 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: get me wrong, the fact that it scrapes the entire 76 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: Internet and can give you a synopsis on a speech 77 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: or a book or a movie or whatever it is 78 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: that you ask is incredibly impressive. But it's nothing that 79 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: a human cannot do. It can certainly do it quicker, 80 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: but there's nothing that's coming out of it at this 81 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: point that I've heard or seen that You're like, Oh 82 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: my god, that's creatively brilliant. 83 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: So what shaped you and got you hell bent on 84 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 2: a career around radio? 85 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: Really a good question? I honestly I fell into it. 86 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: I was going to school in San Diego at the 87 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: University of San Diego, and I delivered a pizza to 88 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: Michael Steele, who was doing nights at the time at 89 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: Star one hundred point seven KFMB, and I struck up 90 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: a friendship with him, and he eventually helped me get 91 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: a job there, screening calls basically for his show, and 92 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: then I became his producer slash sidekick, and after I 93 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: graduated Rick He's hired me to be an assistant producer 94 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: up here. And so I never really even thought about 95 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: it as a career until I just kind of haphazardly 96 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: fell into it, and I honestly just was completely enamored 97 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: by it. And I remember when I first got that job, 98 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: there just that incredible excitement of you know, being in 99 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: the studio, the energy at the radio station, the creatives, whole, 100 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: that whole vibe, and I've never lost that excitement. 101 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 2: For when did you first realize that the people associated 102 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: with the business were completely nuts? 103 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: Probably probably pretty early on. I mean I remember at 104 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: the time Jeff and Jerr were doing mornings, so I 105 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: think are absolutely brilliant, and Tracy Johnson was the program director, 106 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: and there was just so many creative people with these 107 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: quirky personalities. But I've always kind of gravitated towards towards that. 108 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: My family is a bit like that. And I think 109 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: of Ray when you went back, you know, to be 110 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: in the interview and you asked what I like the 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: most about the NAB is I love being around the 112 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: creatives and in the nutters, if you will, it's it's 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: a lot of fun for me. 114 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: The nutters I do miss though, back to the NAB 115 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: for a second, the fact that you used to see, 116 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: you know, more program directors and market manager types there 117 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: who obviously are part of the nut squad, and I 118 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: didn't feel that that was as prevalent. 119 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you completely on that, and I 120 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: think that is sad. I've noticed that trend for the 121 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: last several years. There's fewer programmers, fewer people at a 122 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: station a local level, and there's more executives. And why 123 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: I love obviously seeing the executives. I do think that 124 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: these events are unfortunately, and I don't know if it's 125 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: a price or if it's a budget situation at the 126 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: station level or a combination thereof, but I agree we 127 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: need more. We need to have more air talent, We 128 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: need to have more programmers and more of those those 129 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: nutters there, if you will. Don Anthony does a great 130 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: job with Morning Show boot Camp and a lot of 131 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: talent come out to that. But I would certainly like 132 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: to see more of the creatives at a ne EV. 133 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: So when did you first know you wanted to be 134 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: a program director? You know, I at first I was 135 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: very excited about being the sidekick and being on air, 136 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: and Michael would send me out to do all these 137 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: kind of crazy stunts out on the you know, on 138 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: the street, like drive through Olympics, and we had this big, 139 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: gigantic Cadillac from the seventies called the Surf Pig, and 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: I would pull people over that had the Star one 141 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: hundred point seven bumper sticker and give them, you know, prizes, 142 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: concert tickets and so forth. So I loved all that. 143 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: And then I remember coming up here and I met 144 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: Johnny of all places, at Rod Stewart's house. Rod at 145 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: the time the market manager here, Roy Lachlan, his wife 146 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: Ellen Ka, who still does Mornings at Coast and does 147 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: incredibly well. She was in Rod Stewart video and they 148 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: had a release party viewing party for this Rod Stewart 149 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: video that Ellen starred in, and I got invited to 150 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: go to this and Johnny was there, and Gwen Roberts, 151 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: who worked at Kiss and was a fixture a Kiss 152 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: for many many years, introduced us and I was like, wow, man, 153 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: this is really kind of fascinating. We're from the same town. 154 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: He was a legendary AC programmer. He was programming Coast 155 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: in k Big at the time, and I just got 156 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: really interested on the programming side really through him, and 157 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: so Roy allowed me to transfer over to go become 158 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: Johnny's programming coordinator, and so I was very fortunate to 159 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: learn by Johnny. I got so lucky, buzz to have 160 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: incredible mentors around me. I had Tracy Johnson, who I 161 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: think is a creative and brilliant programmer, and Johnny, who 162 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: are very different. Johnny's much more of a meticulous programmer 163 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: and more much about the details. But I really I 164 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: felt got to learn from these two different sides, but 165 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: both equally successful pds. 166 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: So that set your sights on being a PD. At 167 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: the age of twenty eight years old, you were the 168 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: youngest PD in LA history at that point. 169 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got really lucky. Johnny at that point in 170 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: his career was looking to kind of slow down a 171 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: little bit, and he was basically became kind of a 172 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: consultant and really just a mentor to myself and then 173 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: to Stella at the time. So Stella was given the 174 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: PD roll at Coast and then I was at k Big. 175 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: Were you scared to death at first? 176 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean at that point too, 177 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: and this is two thousand. I think that was in 178 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, which is crazy. I was nineteen 179 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: years ago now, but I remember, you know, every tenth 180 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: of a point was a million dollars worth of billing 181 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: annual billing for the radio station. And so they watched 182 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: those numbers incredibly closely, and there was a you know, 183 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: tremendous amoun of pressure and then you're trying to you know, 184 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: I had to. I remember there just being a lot 185 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: of chefs in the kitchen at that point. You had 186 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: certainly Johnny at the point Steve Smith was involved. You know, 187 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: our market we had co market managers Greg Ashlock and 188 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: Roy Lachlin. I mean, there was a lot a station manager, 189 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: Craig ROSSI, I mean, all great people. But there was 190 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: just a lot of pressure. And I certainly, you know, 191 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: had this great tutelage under Johnny and Tracy prior to that, 192 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: but nothing really prepares you for that pressure and just 193 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, dealing, and not only that, you had you know, 194 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: big air talent that you're you're contending with, and so 195 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: it was a lot. A lot came at me very quickly. 196 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: What did you look at at that period when you 197 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: think of the promotional flair that existed in radio, and 198 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: how does it look from then to now when you 199 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: think of promotional flare. 200 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 1: Man, that's I think a great question, and I think 201 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: kind of going back to what we were, you know, 202 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: the initial point we were talking about in regards to 203 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: AI and unfortunately, think our programming, our marketing has suffered 204 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: over the years. Johnny told me the story in the eighties, 205 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: and you're going to be blown away by the statistic. 206 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: But when Johnny was programming Coast in the eighties, Dick 207 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: Clark was the spokesperson. Cox owned him. At the time, 208 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: their marketing budget was four million dollars a year. Coast 209 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: commercials were on the air practically three hundred and sixty 210 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,599 Speaker 1: five days out of the year. They had bus boards, billboards. 211 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean you could not go you know, you couldn't 212 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: drive around LA without you know, having cost hit you everywhere. 213 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: If you watch Where the Streets Have No Name by 214 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: you two, that YouTube video, you'll see a Coast to billboard, 215 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: our bus board drive through that video. That's how prevalent 216 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: the marketing was when I left K Big. Our marketing 217 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: budget was when I two thousand and nine was eight 218 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars a year. Not to name names, but 219 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: I do know someone who's a marketing director, a good 220 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: friend of mine, in a major market, and he's now 221 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: basically expected to just trade tickets to sports games for marketing. 222 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: If they need a station van, they're just going to 223 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: trade out tickets for that. And so that goes to 224 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: kind of show you just how different we look at 225 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: marketing now compared to what we did, you know, thirty 226 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: forty years ago. 227 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: Do you think the lawyers took some of the fun 228 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: out of this too? 229 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, you know, I think sure to some degree. 230 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: I think that you know, there's always you know, us 231 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: creative is always going to be at odds with with attorneys. 232 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: But the lawyers, I think we're always there. But I 233 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: think a lot of it has to do now with 234 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: or most of it, I should say, is, you know, 235 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: the economics. I'll go back to, you know what, Gary Wall. 236 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: We were talking about him earlier over at Jack and 237 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: I think he just he shares a lot of wisdom 238 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: with me. He was given an opportunity twenty plus years 239 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: ago to buy a building Nashville off a Broadway Street. 240 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: I don't remember the same the exact price but it 241 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: was several hundred thousand dollars, maybe short of a million dollars. 242 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: It was right after nine to eleven, and at that 243 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: point Broadway was still pretty run down. It was not 244 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: really There was a few bars and restaurants down there, 245 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: but nothing compared to what it was now or what 246 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: it is now. And he passed on that opportunity to 247 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: invest in this building. And he saw the other day 248 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: in the newspaper that that building just sold for eighteen 249 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: million dollars. And his analogy was that at that point 250 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: he didn't see it. He didn't have the vision to 251 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: see that Broadway was going to turn to what it 252 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: is today, and it was really this undervalued real estate 253 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: and it just took someone to come in redo that 254 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: building turned into a great restaurant, a great bar, and 255 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: it just kind of brought up the whole rest of 256 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. And we see that all the time with 257 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, Downtown's being revitalized and so forth. And the 258 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: analogy is, in his mind, it's very much like radio. 259 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: I think that radio stations are these incredible assets that 260 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: unfortunately are I think by our own doing, are kind 261 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: of looked upon and being in a bad neighborhood. And 262 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: I think that these stations need some investment, just like 263 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: that building off a Broadway, to turn them into back 264 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: to what they were and when you look, and we'll 265 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: tie this back into AI and back into my kind 266 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: of assessment of right now at being average. If we 267 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: continue just to put average content on a radio station, 268 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: whether that's you know, I don't mean this as a 269 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: dig to anyone, but average air talent or average imaging 270 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: or average you know, music or whatever it is, we're 271 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: going to get average results if we really invest and 272 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: we revitalize these stations and we invest in that content. 273 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: I do think that they can absolutely be turned around, 274 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: just like that building in Nashville was turned around. But 275 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: right now, I feel that we've kind of self inflicted 276 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: this wound because we've cut back so significantly on the marketing, 277 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: on the investment in the talent, on just the overall 278 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: investment in the building. 279 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: So if we would approach where we are in the 280 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: business with a beginner's sort of mindset, what advice with 281 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: a fresh perspective would you give to operators and influencers 282 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: in the industry to make a difference. 283 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: I think the advice is right now for a lot 284 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: of these companies, we need to make investments, but I 285 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: think part of that's going to be having to retool 286 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: the economics because a lot of the groups got themselves 287 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: into way too much debt, and unfortunately that leads to 288 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: more and more cuts, and it makes it almost impossible 289 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: for them to be able to make the investments that 290 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: they need to. So I think it becomes, unfortunately, the 291 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: spiral that's very hard to break. So I was hopeful 292 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: when we saw you know, cumulus and iHeart go through 293 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: those restructurings, that you know, that there'd be more investment 294 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: into these these various assets. And I think that to 295 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: some degree there has been. But I think unfortunately economically, 296 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: they couldn't have planned for the pandemic, they couldn't have 297 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: planned for you know, what we're seeing with inflation. So 298 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: I think it's been hard for them, given the current 299 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: economic headwinds, to make those investments. And so you almost 300 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: have to completely start from scratch in some ways and 301 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: maybe go back to where, you know, back into the 302 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: seventies and the eighties, where we just had a few 303 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: handful of radio stations, but we really invested heavily in them. 304 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: So when did you first look at leadership skills and 305 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: look at yourself and kind of hone those skills. 306 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever owned them. Buzz. That's 307 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: very nice to you, too nice of you to say 308 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: you know a lot of it. Again, very fortunate my parents. 309 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: You know, my father's a physician, my mom was a teacher, 310 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: and so I think I naturally had a lot of 311 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: good influences around me. And then I got to go 312 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: to a you know, a good went to us D 313 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 1: and I did student government there and so got some 314 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: a little bit there and then you know, these just 315 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: the mentors that I've had. I mean, I've been really 316 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: fortunate to have you know, great people around me and 317 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: take time and you know, share their knowledge. But I'm still, honestly, man, 318 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: I'm learning every day. 319 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: When did you learn delegation? 320 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: You know that probably you know a bit from Johnny, 321 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: a bit from Tracy. Tracy was very I was very 322 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: again lucky to have people that empowered me. Craig Rossi, 323 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: who is the market manager, the general manager here. I remember, 324 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, Roy Lachlan coming in and you know Roy 325 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: would have his big yellow notepad with all his ideas 326 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: and he said, you're the program director. But you need 327 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: to you know, as the market manager, you need to 328 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: give me my basically time, give me the time to 329 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: pitch my ideas and even if you don't like any 330 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: of them, I just want you to hear them out. 331 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: But I was never There wasn't a lot of cram 332 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: downs at the time when I was in the business, 333 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: and so I was very lucky to have people that 334 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: empowered me and ultimately took a chance on it. 335 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: So let's talk about how Ben'stown came to be created. 336 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: Talk about that whole process. Walk me through it. 337 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So in two thousand and nine, I was invited 338 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: to leave Clear Channel. That was when President Obama. The 339 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: day invited to leave, President Obama was getting inaugurated that day, 340 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: and they had major layoffs. It was right after being 341 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: capital about the company, and if we go back in 342 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: the time machine, that was something they didn't want to 343 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: close on and there was a bunch of legal maneuvering 344 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: and ultimately a judge forced that, and so they had 345 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: to make a lot of cuts. It was in the 346 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: throes of the financial recession, and so they made some 347 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: bold moves and I got caught up in that and 348 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: through Tracy Johnson. So many things go back around to Tracy. 349 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: I had been introduced to my partners Andy and Olie. 350 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: He was overseas and he was in Europe, I think 351 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: at Radio Days or something along those lines, and met 352 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: Andy and Olie and they had come over prior to 353 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine to the States to see him. 354 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: Wanted to tour a US radio station, and so Tracy 355 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: had called me, going, hey, do you mind shown him around? 356 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: It was MYFM at the time. I said absolutely. I 357 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: took him to Bob's Big Boy for an all American meal, 358 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: and they were in the jingle business and they were 359 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: interested in growing here in the States, and so when 360 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: I got let go, it really kind of was an 361 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: opportunity to start a business with them. And we saw 362 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: kind of a space with imaging libraries, and so we 363 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: started with four or five libraries, and shortly thereafter that 364 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: we grew into voiceover and custom imaging and long form syndication, 365 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: and it just all kind of came together really organically 366 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: and through, you know, just ultimately relationships. 367 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: And how did the team come together. Did it come 368 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: together organically as well? 369 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: It really did. I initially Massa who's been with us 370 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: almost from their very beginning. I knew him. He was 371 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: invited to leave Clear Channel the same day he was 372 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: at premiere and we didn't know each other at the time, 373 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: but Eileen Thorguson had introduced us afterwards, and so I 374 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: remember hiring Masa and I would just write him his 375 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: paycheck out of my own personal account. At the beginning, 376 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: I just you know, I was lucky. At the time, 377 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: I was bitter about it, but candidly in retrospect, Clear 378 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: Channel took good care of me. On the back end, 379 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: I had like nine months worth of severance. And then 380 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: Tracy again comes to my save, to my rescue. He 381 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 1: was working at the time for M two oh, and 382 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: so I got hired to work at M two to 383 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: consult Those were loyalty reward programs when you know, that 384 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: was a big deal in reg John's company, and Tracy 385 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: was working there, and so I got to do that 386 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: and kind of build Ben's town simultaneously. So it all 387 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: really worked out very well, and in retrospect, professionally, while 388 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: I loved being a program director and really enjoyed the 389 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: people I worked with and just had a great time, 390 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: in retrospect professionally turned out to be the best thing 391 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: that could have happened to me. That sounds like an understatement, 392 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: doesn't it. Yeah, well, I guess it depends on the day. 393 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: There are certain days where you're like, well, I don't 394 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: know this is this can be more of a headache 395 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: than I would like. But there are more days than 396 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: not buzz that I am incredibly fortunate and feel very 397 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: lucky for a just you know, the people that I 398 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: get to work with, the clients that we get to 399 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: work with, and all the people that have you know, 400 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: supported me. 401 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: So when your roadmap for ben'stown, how do you put 402 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 2: innovation in the midst of that roadmap during challengeing economic times? 403 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: That's tough, man, And it's easy to be critical of 404 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: some of the operators, like we were talking about a 405 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: couple of minutes ago, but it is very tough when 406 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: you're in those the economic challenging times, and just interest 407 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: rates as much as they've gone up here over the 408 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: last few months or the last I said, say fourteen months, 409 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,239 Speaker 1: our price of lending or borrowing I should say, has 410 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: gone up almost four hundred percent, and so it all 411 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden becomes much more expensive to invest, which 412 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: is very, very challenging from an operator standpoint, or even 413 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: from our standpoint. So you've got to and I don't 414 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: have to worry about I've got partners and so forth, 415 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: but I don't have to worry about shareholders and making 416 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: sure that private equity investors are getting their ROI. So 417 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: I'm very lucky in that regard if you want. By 418 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: the way, no, if you've read this or not, buzz, 419 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: but just a little bit of a tangent. Have you 420 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: read Jeff Simillian's book Never Write a roller Coaster pside 421 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: I have. He goes into great book, right, and he 422 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: goes into you know, some of those struggles when all 423 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: of a sudden, Radio went from you know, Wall Street's 424 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,479 Speaker 1: darling to you know, no one was interested. And so 425 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: there's all these economic forces that the operators have to 426 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: abide by that I, personally, because we're a much smaller company, 427 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: don't have any shareholders and so forth, don't have to 428 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: rule by. And so back to sorry, it's a long 429 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: way around the barn, but back to your original question. 430 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: We tend to be pretty bold here. So we don't 431 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: take giant salaries. I'm well paid and I'm very fortunate, 432 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: but we and the partners feel the same way. We 433 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: really invest very heavily back into the company, So not 434 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: all the time does that pay off. There are times 435 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: where we make a mistake and we invest in things 436 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: that that end up failing, and that you know, we 437 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: learn from those mistakes, but we I guess we go big, 438 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: and so that's kind of the long way around. We're 439 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: not afraid to invest and ultimately make less money but 440 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: feel it's the right thing for the in lieu of 441 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: thinking or we make less money because we feel it's 442 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: the right thing for the company to reinvest. That answer 443 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: your question totally. Yeah. 444 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: What are some of the favorite musical experiences you had 445 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 2: in your career that you can share? 446 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: Great question, Man. Humphreys by the Bay in San Diego 447 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: is an amazing venue out in Shelter Island, and I 448 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: think in ninety seven or ninety eight, I can't remember 449 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: exactly when Michael Hutchins came through from an excess and 450 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: I always was just a gigantic in excess fan and 451 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: this was like the last time he came through before 452 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: unfortunately tragically taking his own life. And I remember being 453 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: at Humphreys having these amazing those seats. I mean, we're 454 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: practically front, maybe two or three rows back, but just 455 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: these amazing seats, and I felt like he was just 456 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: he was the epitome of a rock star. And so 457 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: that probably stands out the most to me because I 458 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: was just really young, really into an excess, and here 459 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: I got to like see, you know, see them live. 460 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: Even though he was on the you know, unfortunately not 461 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: in a great part of his career, was still something 462 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: very memorable. And then what I don't have Google in 463 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: front of me, but I cannot remember exactly what year 464 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: he had passed away. But Michael happened to be on 465 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: vacation and I was on the air, and he had 466 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: committed suicide in Australia. And so it was the next 467 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: day in Australia and I was doing nights at KFMB 468 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: in KFMB had a television station in the building as well. 469 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: They were the CBS affiliate, and so I was there 470 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: doing the show by myself and incomes the TV station 471 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: to do an interview with me about Michael Hutchins passing away. 472 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,959 Speaker 1: And that was in I mean, obviously incredibly sad news, 473 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: but it was very surreal for me. I'd probably been 474 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: in the position for you know a year or maybe 475 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: you know less and here like an idol of mine, 476 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, died and I'm being interviewed to comment on it. 477 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: That was a very I know it's macabb and dark, 478 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: but that's probably what stands out to me most. One 479 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: more too, on that I got to take My dad 480 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: was always a huge Carlos Santana fan, and I got 481 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: to take him to see Carlos Santana at the Hollywood 482 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: Bowl and we got to go backstage and meet Carlos 483 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: Santana and did a whole uh photo shoot and my 484 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: dad just absolutely loved that. So that's also really memorable. 485 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: That's awesome. Talk about your foray into podcasting since you're 486 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: on a podcast. 487 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: I again, I keep on bringing up some of the 488 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: same people, but it's it's funny. These people have been 489 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: so integral in my life. It was Gary Wall's idea. 490 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: Gary had we were having dinner a few years ago 491 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: here and he thought, you know, you should you should 492 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: do a podcast where you interview you know, people in 493 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: the business, and it was really his brain child. And 494 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: I kind of like, I didn't really buy into the 495 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: idea at the beginning, and then I finally decided you 496 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: know what, let's do it, and I tried my first 497 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: one with Johnny k and it worked out all right. 498 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: I think I think you're pretty natural. 499 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: Well that means a lot coming from you, my friend. 500 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan, in speaking of podcasts, a big 501 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: fan of your podcast, and I really enjoy listening to it, 502 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: and I've really enjoyed being on with you. Man. It's 503 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: like I said at the beginning, I am a very 504 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: grateful for everything you've done for us over the years 505 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: and in the partnership that we've had. I'm a big 506 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: fan of your podcast, and thank you for thinking to 507 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: me and considering me well. 508 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 2: Thank you for always being first class, supportive, curious, and 509 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: a dear friend. I so appreciate you being on well. 510 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: Anything we can ever do for you, Buzz please do 511 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: not hesitate to ask, and I could not recommend you anymore. 512 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: I think you are a brilliant, brilliant programming mind, and 513 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: I would love to work with you more in the future. 514 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: Thanks Chuching. Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify, 515 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.