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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, the podcast where I'm

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans and we talked about bad people and I

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Speaker 1: introduced the show poorly. Uh, this is uh an episode

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Speaker 1: about Jeffrey Epstein and my my guest today is Daniel O'Brien. Dan,

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Speaker 1: how you doing? Man? Hello, brailed to be talking to

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Speaker 1: you for a third episode about Jeffrey Epstein Jeffstein. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I've decided we should call him. Really really

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Speaker 1: thought we sort of uh closed the book on this

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Speaker 1: one the last time. Has there been any updates? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: You know, Dan, it's been a busy year since we

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Speaker 1: last talked. A lot has happened. Uh, you want an emmy,

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Speaker 1: I went to Syria and our friend Jeffrey Epstein had

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Speaker 1: some big Um had some big things happen as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have to. You have to offer a bunch of

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Speaker 1: retractions for your last episode because it turns out he

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Speaker 1: was exonerated on all counts. Right, is that the news? Oh? No,

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Speaker 1: Dan um slightly slightly different than that he either killed

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Speaker 1: himself or was murdered in prison cell um after being

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Speaker 1: arrested at an airport and charged with a whole a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of crimes. Yikes. Yeah, not a great year

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Speaker 1: for Epstein. UM. I would imagine you have uh an

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Speaker 1: order in which you want to proceed with this episode,

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Speaker 1: and that me jumping in right now and ask you

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Speaker 1: questions is disrupting that in some way. UM. I know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I don't care right off the top.

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Speaker 1: Do you have strong opinions on suicide versus murder? Um?

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Speaker 1: I have strong opinions that the case for murder isn't

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Speaker 1: nearly as strong as a lot of people think it is.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people misunderstanding in some

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Speaker 1: cases deliberately what has actually been revealed. UM. That said,

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Speaker 1: there's definitely some fishy as ship, and it's it's not

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Speaker 1: on reasonable to want an investigation into it. UM. I'm

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Speaker 1: leaning towards suicide though, UM, and I suspect most of

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Speaker 1: the listeners think he was murdered. Uh so the people

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Speaker 1: where are you on this? I haven't thought too much

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Speaker 1: about it, to be completely honest. That seems healthy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's he's I'm sure a compelling case could be made

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Speaker 1: for either side. I don't. It doesn't quite matter to me,

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Speaker 1: I guess, which probably sounds callous. I don't think you

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Speaker 1: can be callous about a mass child rapist. Um. I

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Speaker 1: kind of think you can do whatever you want when

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Speaker 1: talking about Jeffrey Epstein as long as you're not talking

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Speaker 1: about how good an art collector he was or something

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Speaker 1: like that. I mean, if not not callous, because like

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Speaker 1: it's not I have no respect for Jeffrey Epstein. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't give a ship. But the fact that I

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Speaker 1: clearly don't care one way or the other means I'm

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Speaker 1: implicitly saying I don't care if someone can sneakily murder

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Speaker 1: someone and get away with it, and that's not a

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Speaker 1: good stance to have, ideal stance to have. Yeah, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like so, I I guess we should.

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Speaker 1: You're probably aware of so. A lot of the things

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Speaker 1: that have um recently come out. I think the most

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Speaker 1: recent big story about Epstein has actually been a couple

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Speaker 1: in the last week. The most recent is a Project

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Speaker 1: Veritas video from your Your Hold alumni James O'Keeffe. Did

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Speaker 1: you ever run into him at Rutgers by the way, No,

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Speaker 1: I did not. Okay, that's good. That's probably good for everybody. Um,

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Speaker 1: he seems insufferable. Uh so he put out a video

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Speaker 1: of ABC News anchor Amy Roebok, and in the video,

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Speaker 1: she claims that the network quashed an interview she conducted

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Speaker 1: with a source about Jeffrey Epstein's like child prostitution business

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Speaker 1: UM that involved like Prince Andrew and kind of suggested

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Speaker 1: that ABC had like pulled the story due to threats

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Speaker 1: from like Buckingham Palace and like a number of other

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Speaker 1: powerful people. And so this is like, this has been

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Speaker 1: pretty prominent on the internet. Uh, And like, I think

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Speaker 1: the way that most people have framed it as like, oh,

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Speaker 1: James O'Keeffe actually got a scoop is a clear example

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Speaker 1: of ABC News um killing a story to protect Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein the powerful people that he provided prostitutes for. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say that's a hundred percent not

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Speaker 1: what's happening, but I really don't think that's what's happening.

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Speaker 1: So I should start by I'm gonna I'm actually gonna

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Speaker 1: quote an MPR article here that that kind of gives

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Speaker 1: the response from ABC. So we'll start with that. ABC

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Speaker 1: News executives say their journalists were simply not able to

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Speaker 1: corroborate the details of the reporting sufficiently for broadcast. We

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Speaker 1: would never run away from that, Chris Blasto, head of

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Speaker 1: investigations for ABC News, tells NPR the network has filed

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Speaker 1: approximately two dozen digital and broadcast stories on Epstein since

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Speaker 1: early two thousand fifteen, when ABC started talking to the accuser,

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Speaker 1: Virginia Roberts Jeffrey. So there's a good point there, which

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Speaker 1: is that if you're trying to say ABC was unwilling

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Speaker 1: to talk about Epstein, that's really hard to support because

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Speaker 1: they've actually done a lot of coverage of this case,

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Speaker 1: and the idea that like, Okay, well we we weren't

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Speaker 1: able to back into like I think it was to

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Speaker 1: them fifteen when this video was or sorry to this

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Speaker 1: nineteen is her talking about this, but I think she

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Speaker 1: was frustrated that like they hadn't gotten the story out

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Speaker 1: earlier and broken the story. But I like there's legal

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Speaker 1: concerns when you're reporting something like this and you're alleging

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Speaker 1: that like a prince is part of a child sex

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Speaker 1: ring and like a bunch of very prominent, very wealthy

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Speaker 1: people have been committing horrible crimes um and there is

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Speaker 1: like your legal department is going to look over something

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Speaker 1: like this in addition to your editorial department and be like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: either we have enough back up for this story to

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Speaker 1: move forward, or we don't think we can safely d

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Speaker 1: op this yet because we don't have enough like evidence

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Speaker 1: to support it, right. I mean, it sounds like another

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Speaker 1: case where idiots on the internet saw how professional adult

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Speaker 1: does a thing, kind of simplified and misunderstood it, and

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Speaker 1: then applied it to something else. So like we can see,

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Speaker 1: oh NBC actively covered up this running fire was reporting

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Speaker 1: on Harvey Weinstein, which they did, and then did the

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Speaker 1: idiots of the internet though, the adiots of the world,

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Speaker 1: the James O keeps and what not, the trolls and stuff.

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Speaker 1: They'll look at something that seems like it shares some

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Speaker 1: of the DNA because they're like, hey, big news network

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Speaker 1: something something something, scandal something something something, and they knew

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Speaker 1: part of it and they didn't tell us these things

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Speaker 1: are the same thing, which is not the case. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's on the video. Robots says, I tried for

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Speaker 1: three years to get it out to no avail and

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Speaker 1: a these new revelations and I freaking had all of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm so piste right now, Like every day I get

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Speaker 1: one more piste because I'm just like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: what we had it was, what we had was unreal.

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Speaker 1: But when the video leaked, she made a public statement. UM.

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Speaker 1: As the Epstein story continue to unfold last summer, I

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Speaker 1: was caught in a private moment of frustration. I was

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Speaker 1: upset that an important interview I had conducted with Virginia

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Speaker 1: Roberts didn't air because we could not obtain sufficient corroborating

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Speaker 1: evidence to meet ABC's editorial standards about her allegations the

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Speaker 1: interview itself, While I was disappointed in nair didn't meet

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Speaker 1: our standards. In a years since, no one ever told

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Speaker 1: me you're the team to stop reporting on Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 1: and we have continued to aggressively pursue this important story,

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Speaker 1: which they did again like the network launched like a

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Speaker 1: two hour documentary um in like like they've they've covered

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Speaker 1: this a lot. Um. It's one of those things, like

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Speaker 1: I I'm I'm I'm certainly open to the possibility that

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Speaker 1: with his connections and power, um Epstein had an in

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Speaker 1: at ABC that tried to quash the story at some point.

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Speaker 1: That's certainly not impossible, But I'm not seeing evidence of that.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm seeing evidence of it's hard to go after

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Speaker 1: billionaires and princes uh and royalty um and politicians when

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Speaker 1: they commit crimes if you only have one source, because

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Speaker 1: like you can get your ass sued for that stuff,

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Speaker 1: Like it's there. Yeah, I think people are blowing this

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Speaker 1: out of proportion. I think I think you're right to

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Speaker 1: connect it to like what happened with Ronan Pharaoh UM,

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Speaker 1: because that is a case of where he came in

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Speaker 1: with this big story and they tried to quash it

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Speaker 1: for very sinister reasons. And I think O'Keefe was pretty

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Speaker 1: smart to launch this pretty fairly shortly after um, like

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Speaker 1: Ronan Pharaoh's book came out, because I do think those

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Speaker 1: two things have been connected in a lot of people's heads. Yeah. Yeah, alright,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about Epstein's suicide slash murder. Um. Yeah, that'll

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Speaker 1: be this will be fun talk. He's just sitting with

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Speaker 1: my buddy Dan talking about a murdered or suicide, multi

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Speaker 1: millionaire financier, prostituted child pimp. Oh. I yes, I should

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Speaker 1: try to get ahead of this because it sounds like

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Speaker 1: we're going to cover some pretty dark stuff. If people

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Speaker 1: are easily uh triggered by by talk of child molestation

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Speaker 1: and or suicide. I also, just knowing myself, I will

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Speaker 1: probably make suicide jokes. I don't think suicide is funny

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Speaker 1: or a laughing matter, and it should always be taken seriously.

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Speaker 1: But because of the way my brain is wired, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just might happen. I'm just putting the warning out there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I I had to physically fight myself to stop from

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Speaker 1: just quoting the lines from the Mash theme song as

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Speaker 1: a response to you, which I didn't do. And I'm

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Speaker 1: proud of myself, but I might later. Um. Yeah. There's

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Speaker 1: a number of things that people find really fishy about

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Speaker 1: the Epstein suicide, probably like one of the chief things

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Speaker 1: is the fact that he was taken off of Suicide Watch,

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Speaker 1: which seems really damning, Like why would you take this

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Speaker 1: guy off of suicide Watch? Um, it seems like a

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Speaker 1: clear case of the kind of person you would be

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Speaker 1: worried would commit suicide. And in fact, a number of

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Speaker 1: like corrections at like like people who have like worked

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Speaker 1: in prisons and stuff, um like have come out and

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Speaker 1: said that, like this was a dumb call to remove

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Speaker 1: him from Suicide Watch. Cameron Lindsay, a former warden who

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Speaker 1: worked at three federal facilities told NBC. For them to

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Speaker 1: pull him off suicide watch a shocking for someone that

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Speaker 1: high profile, with these allegations and this many victims who

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Speaker 1: has had a suicide attempt in the last few weeks,

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Speaker 1: you can take absolutely no chances. And I think this

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Speaker 1: seems conspiratorial to people who don't really know how the

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Speaker 1: justice system worked. And I kind of think this is

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Speaker 1: just a situation of where Epstein was treated like a

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Speaker 1: normal prisoner. Um. He was not removed just out of

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Speaker 1: like laziness, Like he had a face to face meeting

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Speaker 1: with a doctor UM who determined that the suicide watch

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Speaker 1: was not warranted anymore and removed him from it. UM.

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Speaker 1: And you know, basically he convinced a doctor that he

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Speaker 1: wasn't a risk after his suicide attempt. And you can

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Speaker 1: say that, uh, that shouldn't have happened, or that um,

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Speaker 1: like it was a bad guy. It was certainly a

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Speaker 1: bad call. It was obviously a bad call. But this

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Speaker 1: sort of thing is incredibly common. We actually don't know

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Speaker 1: how many people die in of suicide in prisons right now.

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Speaker 1: We only have data up to two thousand fourteen that

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Speaker 1: we should get a better. Uh system doesn't it handle,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it? Yeah? Um, we we we only have data

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Speaker 1: up to two fourteen, because in two thousand fourteen, suicide

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Speaker 1: in jails and prisons in America hit a fifteen year

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Speaker 1: high and became the leading cause of death in jails. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And after that the Department of Justice stopped providing us

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Speaker 1: with information about suicides in our jails for some reason,

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Speaker 1: which is that might be more of the conspiracy in

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Speaker 1: my head that they're hiding this this information. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: suicide accounts for a third more yeah, roughly a third

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Speaker 1: of all deaths in in jails. Uh. And in thirty

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Speaker 1: percent of all deaths in state prisons. It actually jumped

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Speaker 1: thirty from two thousand two fourteen in state prisons. Oh sorry,

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Speaker 1: it's seven percent of deaths in prisons. It jumped thirty

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Speaker 1: percent over the course of two thoteen in fourteen. And

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Speaker 1: we don't know how high it is now obviously, um,

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Speaker 1: but it had a thirty percent leap over the course

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Speaker 1: of a year in two thousand, thirteen and fourteen, which

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Speaker 1: is um huge. Uh. The a P and the University

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Speaker 1: of Maryland's Capital News Service recently conducted an inner an

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Speaker 1: investigation where they found hundreds of lawsuits against local jails. Um,

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Speaker 1: talking about suicides, like against local jails because inmates had

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Speaker 1: committed suicide. Um. And that way, that's just in Maryland. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Martial Project used public records laws to

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Speaker 1: find suicide data from the Bureau of Prisons, which show

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Speaker 1: arise since two thousand fifteen. But again they had to

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Speaker 1: use like Foyer requests and stuff to get that data.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's like publishing it normally. UM. Like it's a huge

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Speaker 1: systemic problem, and it might be like the single largest

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Speaker 1: problem with American prisons. I found a really good quote

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Speaker 1: from David Fathi, who was the director of the National

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Speaker 1: Prison Project at the a c l U. UM. In

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Speaker 1: most prisons and jails I've seen, and there are exceptions,

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Speaker 1: suicide prevention as a joke. We have seen people able

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Speaker 1: to attempt suicidal suppose the on constant suicide watch. We've

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Speaker 1: seen people taken off suicide watch because staff thought they

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Speaker 1: were okay, and then killed themselves that same day. We've

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Speaker 1: seen officers who were supposed to be watching someone on

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Speaker 1: suicide watch actually sleeping. This ship happens a lot, and

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Speaker 1: it can't really be overstated just how big of a

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Speaker 1: problem this is. I know that's just what you've been doing,

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Speaker 1: but just yeah, only because I've been researching is for

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Speaker 1: a future upcoming thing at work is that as mental

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Speaker 1: health treatment facilities closed down, more and more people in

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Speaker 1: need of mental health end up in jails. And I

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Speaker 1: know in a few cases the county jail is the

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Speaker 1: largest single provider of mental health services, which is not great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think one area people get when they when

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Speaker 1: they see this removal from suicide Watch for Epsney is

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Speaker 1: something sinister. Um is sinister in like a conspiratorial way.

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Speaker 1: I think what actually is happening here is that for

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Speaker 1: the first time in his life, this guy got treated

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Speaker 1: like everybody else um. And that's what happens to everybody else.

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Speaker 1: It happens to a shipload of people in prison and

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Speaker 1: jails they kill themselves. And you can look at it

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Speaker 1: as the deep State wanted him dead and so they

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Speaker 1: had him moved from suicide Watch and like, you know,

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Speaker 1: told him that it was either this or someone would

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Speaker 1: murder him and then he did it. Or you can

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Speaker 1: look at it like, oh, he did the thing that

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Speaker 1: liket of people in his situation do, or something like

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Speaker 1: you know, a large chunk of people like it's. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: one thing that is legitimately sketchy is that both of

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Speaker 1: the cameras outside the jail cell where Epstein died were broken,

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Speaker 1: which is sketchy as hell. I'll give everybody who's on

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Speaker 1: the murder side that that ships uh super fishy. It

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Speaker 1: would be a hard Yeah, it's another one to work. Again,

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Speaker 1: I don't have all the information like that exactly immediately

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Speaker 1: at its face value, it sounds sketchy. Um, but I've

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Speaker 1: never done the research, you know, just how well maintained

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Speaker 1: security cameras are exactly, And again there's not It's not

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Speaker 1: like there's data on this because the Bureau of Prisons

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Speaker 1: doesn't give people data on fucking anything. So maybe something's there,

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Speaker 1: maybe not. I don't know. I'm gonna we're we're we

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Speaker 1: are now moving on to the part of the episode

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Speaker 1: where I have an actual little essay written. Um, because

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Speaker 1: because Dan did you went into a story at the

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Speaker 1: end of last month where a uh uh, which you

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Speaker 1: mean a forensic investigator who observed the Epstein autopsy said

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Speaker 1: that it was consistent with homicide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, did

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Speaker 1: you do you look into that at all? Of course? Not? Okay,

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Speaker 1: good good, good, good good good. Yeah. So that happened

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Speaker 1: last month, and a lot of people shared it on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: including myself, and we're like, oh, this is okay. I

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Speaker 1: guess maybe he was murdered. Like now we've got some

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Speaker 1: fucking hard evidence. And then a couple of my fans

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Speaker 1: are like, you should look into the guy who actually

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Speaker 1: declared it a homicide, the the specific investigator, and I did,

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Speaker 1: and uh, he's quite the dude. Dad, You're you're gonna

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Speaker 1: like this, You're you're gonna hate this actually, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna read this to you anyway. So National Reviews coverage

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Speaker 1: that their headline was forensic investigator Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy more

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Speaker 1: consistent with homicide. Fox News wrote Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy more

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Speaker 1: consistent with homicidal strangulation than suicide. Dr Michael Baden reveals

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Speaker 1: now even the New York Times his coverage seemed to

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Speaker 1: point towards a pretty damning revelation. They said, Epstein's autopsy

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Speaker 1: points to homicide pathologist hired by brother claims um Now,

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Speaker 1: as that hired by brother part might suggest this guy

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Speaker 1: is not a totally independent analyst. Um, Yeah, because the

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Speaker 1: Epstein family is very much taking the line that he

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Speaker 1: was murdered. So I looked into this guy, Dr Michael Baden,

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Speaker 1: and he spent the last week or so doing a

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Speaker 1: pretty brisk business and media appearances. He was on Fox

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Speaker 1: and Friends like right after this, uh, and he claimed

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Speaker 1: that Epstein's injuries, particularly the broken highoid bone in his neck,

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Speaker 1: are in his words, extremely unusual in suicidal hangings and

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Speaker 1: could occur much more commonly in homicidal strangulation. Okay that

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Speaker 1: I feel like the word could there is doing a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of work. Yeah, the word could is doing

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00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 1: a lot of lifting. Uh, and more commonly is also

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Speaker 1: also holding some water. Now, he told Fox and Friends,

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Speaker 1: which is where all great forensic investigators go to, uh

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Speaker 1: drop their research. I wasn't sure if you were aware

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Speaker 1: of that, but yeah, really popular. He told them he

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Speaker 1: hadn't seen injuries like this in a suicide in fifty

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Speaker 1: years of doing autopsies. And if you just look at

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Speaker 1: this guy's credentials. Dr Biden's credentials on paper, it does

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Speaker 1: seem like he knows his ship. His website notes that

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Speaker 1: he was the chairman of the Forensic Pathology Panel of

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Speaker 1: the U S Congress Select Committee on Assassinations. Uh. He

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Speaker 1: helped to reinvestigate the deaths of JFK and Martin Luther

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Speaker 1: King Jr. He was asked by the Russian government to example,

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Speaker 1: you get homicide on those two? Also, yeah, he sure

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Speaker 1: shared actually suicide on JFKO. Yeah, yeah, yeah it yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah that I don't I don't have more of a

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Speaker 1: joke there, but I'm sure you can piece one together.

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Speaker 1: He was asked by the Russian government to examine the

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Speaker 1: remains of Zari Nicholas the second and his family, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like we know how that one went down.

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Speaker 1: And he's conducted more than twenty thousand autopsies and taught

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Speaker 1: homicide courses for police, judges, lawyers, and doctors in most

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Speaker 1: of the US and at least nine other countries. So

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty pretty good resume, I would say, uh,

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Speaker 1: pretty solid resume. More autopsies than I have carried out, certainly, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I've only carried out three or four. Um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now that's the overview of Dr Baden's career that his

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Speaker 1: website presents, but it leaves a couple of things out.

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Speaker 1: So before we make any conclusions about this most recent

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Speaker 1: wrinkle in the Epstein case. I want us to take

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Speaker 1: a look at this guy's record. But before we do that, Dan,

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Speaker 1: you know what, it's time for a time for goods services.

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Speaker 1: Yet goods services products is time for an ad break.

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Speaker 1: So don't think of out Jeffrey Epstein hanging himself in

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Speaker 1: a cell and instead think about capitalism. We're back, So, man,

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Speaker 1: those products can't wait to fucking put him in my

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Speaker 1: mouth or whatever. You liked the products. I was a

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Speaker 1: fan of the services, um. But that's the great thing

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Speaker 1: about America, the freedom. Now, speaking of freedom, or not

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Speaker 1: speaking of freedom at all, let's talk about Dr Michael

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Speaker 1: Baiden's career. UM. In nine, while he was the chairman

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Speaker 1: of that Congressional Committee on Assassinations, he was also the

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Speaker 1: chief medical Examiner for New York City. Now that's a

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Speaker 1: really prestigious posting because New York is America's largest city.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but

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Speaker 1: all of its citizens are very talented murderers. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: it's also I don't know if you know this, but

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Speaker 1: it never sleeps, so it did not always murder happening. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just it is a murder fa ctory um that's

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Speaker 1: in fact what they call it on the streets. I hear, yeah,

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Speaker 1: taking the taking a taking the A train into the

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Speaker 1: murder factory. I don't know if the A train goes

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Speaker 1: into New York. I don't know if there's an A train.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about the subway. Dan, Hey, it was

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00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 1: a good joke, and you were wise for making it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for your approval. Now Baden had

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Speaker 1: been promoted to that that very prestigious gig in August

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Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy eight, after more than ten years is

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Speaker 1: the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner. Mayor Ed Koch, who promoted him,

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Speaker 1: told the New York Daily News that he had known

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Speaker 1: Dr Baden since nineteen sixty six and found him to

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Speaker 1: be very capable and innovative. Now Mayor Cotch changed that

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Speaker 1: tune less than a year later, According to New York Magazine,

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Speaker 1: too many unforced errors added up, including a picked apart

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Speaker 1: trial testimony in the doctor X case leading the acquittal

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Speaker 1: of Mario Jesskolovich in a spate of poison murders at

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Speaker 1: Riverdale Hospital, a Housing Authority patrolman who's January nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: nine murder went undetected for twelve hours, his body removed

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Speaker 1: from the scene before proper death. Investor Guigetion conflicting conclusions

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Speaker 1: related to the chokehold death of a Brooklyn businessman at

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Speaker 1: the hands of police, and off the cuff comments about

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Speaker 1: the possibly sexual interrupting death of Governor Nelson Rockefeller. So

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Speaker 1: he fox up a bunch of really big cases, and

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Speaker 1: more than anything, I think that got him fired. It's

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Speaker 1: the fact that he started a rumor about the death

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Speaker 1: of the former governor. Um Like, there's this rumor that

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Speaker 1: Nelson Rockefeller died fucking, which is a great way to

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Speaker 1: be rumored to have died. Um if you have to

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00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: be rumored to have died a certain way. But like

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00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: that the origin of that rumor is just dr bait.

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00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,959
Speaker 1: And he was doing rounds at Lenox Hill Hospital and

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00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 1: was just like, you know, the governor died having an orgasm.

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00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: I can understand that sex is pretty cool, but is

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00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: that a is that a cool death rumor? I don't

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Speaker 1: think I'd like that. You don't think, how do you

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Speaker 1: want to be a rumor to have died? Uh? Not fucking?

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00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: I guess you know, like like like uh, because that

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00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: seems like it's gonna be traumatizing for the person I'm with, uh,

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00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: and just a real mess to clean up, you know.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't want to leave this this this

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00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: plane as a burden to many folks. I mean, I

398
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: get there's the the the association of all he died

399
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Speaker 1: doing what he loved. But yeah, it would be much

400
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 1: cooler if they were like, yeah, he uh, he just

401
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: finished sucking and then he got hit by a bus.

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00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,239
Speaker 1: I guess. I mean that's yeah, that's still a lot

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Speaker 1: of men. I I get if I had, if I,

404
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: if I had to be rumored to have died in

405
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Speaker 1: a in a spectacular way, I would want it to

406
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: be like skydiving and fighting some sort of crypto zoological

407
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: animal like Bigfoot like that. That would be if if

408
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: if a medical examiner is going to create a rumor

409
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Speaker 1: about my death, I would want it to be something

410
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 1: cooler than that. You know. I think I'd probably just

411
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 1: want something that was very out of character for me,

412
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 1: so that it would just confuse everyone around on me,

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00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: just like in a big game hunting accident or oh

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00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: yeah he died, uh he he hit a dunk in

415
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: the Warriors game and he just like fell off the rim.

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00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: Weird people like Daniel can dunk. I mean, it sucks

417
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: that he's dead, but he he just dunk. He died

418
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 1: doing what he loved, fist fighting rhinos in the serengetti. Yeah. Yeah,

419
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: he dropped three of them before they got him. Or like, yeah,

420
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: rumor is he was poisoned. And then we were like,

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00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: oh that's interesting. I mean, some people might not like Daniel,

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00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 1: but but he's got poison enemies. That's very fascinating. Yeah yeah, polonium,

423
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 1: like you wanta go with, like the government poisoning thing,

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00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: right really? Yeah? Yeah? Okay, So people were pissed a Dr.

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Speaker 1: Baden for for for no discernible reason, dropping a rumor

426
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: that the governor had died fucking um, which is a

427
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: weird thing for a professional doctor to do. Um. He

428
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: was also in trouble because he had this really ugly

429
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: habit of con instantly losing crucial evidence. And I'm gonna

430
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: quote the New York Times here, and they're talking about

431
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 1: a case the People versus Levine. The defendant was indicted

432
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: for killing Miriam Winfield. Several important pieces of evidence were

433
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: covered the deceased fingernail clippings, who dress stayed with blood

434
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: A blue towel, a knife, and telephone cord which apparently

435
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: was used in the murder. All the items were lost.

436
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: Perhaps as distressing as the lass itself was Dr Baden's attitude,

437
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: which was characterized by the assistant as unknowing and uncaring

438
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: about the significance of the loss. When the assistant came

439
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: to Dr Baden's office to discuss how to salvage the

440
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: case in light of the lost evidence, he was not

441
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: so politely told to leave. So I mean this, this

442
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: is again, I hate to keep beating this drum that

443
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 1: is superficially at face value, sketchy and weird and damning

444
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: if you don't know anything else. And I mean, the

445
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: reason I know this is just from or the reason

446
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: I've adopted this attitude is because I work on the

447
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: most there's actually a lot more nuanced to it than

448
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: you think show in the history of uh natvs. H oh. Like,

449
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: we had an episode on on coroners this year, and

450
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: that's how I know that. Like, it's very common for

451
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: coroners to lose things, or misplace important things, or bungle

452
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: things just because uh there it's a position that's like

453
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: written into constitutions. It's a very old position. Uh. Not

454
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people know too much about it. Uh.

455
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who are unqualified just

456
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: because it's an entire industry where there's there's not enough

457
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: oversight and regulation because there's no one interested in doing that.

458
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 1: So you hear these wild stories like a coroner who

459
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: uh accidentally, not acidentally, he cremated this this John Doe

460
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: on purpose. Uh and then he realized from watching the

461
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: news that the John Doe that he cremated was Michael

462
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: Jordan's father and he was most important this high profile

463
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: abduction case. And the coroner was just watching the news

464
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: was like, oh, no, I think I burned that guy.

465
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: It's like it makes you think he's a terrible corner

466
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: until you really like, no, it's it's like a very

467
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: it's a very troubled uh industry. Yes, So like maybe

468
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: this guy is uh worse or being flipping this this

469
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: this fellow we're talking about now, or maybe he's just

470
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: like another symptom of this this this broken system. I

471
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: think both of those things are true. Um, because number one,

472
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: I think like he definitely he got fired. So whatever,

473
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: however normal it is for these guys to lose evidence

474
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: he was doing it more than was normal, um, and

475
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: obviously had other issues like randomly talking about the governor's

476
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: un death. Um. But also the guy who replaced him

477
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: was fired within a year or two. Also, so you're right,

478
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: this is like it does. It does kind of seem

479
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: like there aren't a lot of people who were great

480
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: at this job, but he was not great at the job.

481
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: I do think that's fair to say, um, because you know,

482
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: he got fired from it a year in for uh,

483
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: fucking up a bunch of stuff. Now, I should note

484
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: Dr Baden denies losing anything. Um. He claims, like in

485
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: the specific case that I quoted, that the decedent was

486
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: brought in nude, and that he went through hours of

487
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: meetings about the lost evidence, and that he wasn't flippant

488
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: about it. I wasn't there, I wasn't born, so I

489
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: don't know what happened. UM. I can tell you that

490
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: District Attorney Robert morgan Thou and City Health Commissioner Ronaldo

491
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: Ferrer accused Baiden of sloppy record keeping, poor judgment, and

492
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: a lack of cooperation. Morgan Thou called him cavalier and

493
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: unproductive about lost evidence. So this is at least what

494
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: the people who work with him say about him. Now.

495
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: Mayor Cotch demoted Baden back to deputy examiner in August

496
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy nine. Baden sued the city for a

497
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: lawful termination and was reinstated as chief medical Examiner nineteen eighty,

498
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: but this didn't last long because the suit was brought

499
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: up to another court and the verdict of the lawsuit

500
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: was overturned. UH, and he was fired again. And as

501
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: it stands right now, in official legal terms, he was

502
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: bad at being the City of New York's chief medical examiner.

503
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: That is what the courts decided. So that's that's that

504
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: job now. Dr Biden moved to Suffolk County next UH

505
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: and he was made the chief Deputy Medical Examiner there.

506
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: He lasted less than a year at this job as well.

507
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: In December of nineteen two, he was fired after an

508
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: article in WE magazine quoted him giving advice on how

509
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: to commit murder using undetectable poisons. I don't know, I

510
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: love undetectable poisons um and talking about them, and I'm

511
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: sure it was a fun article. I can see why

512
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want a chief medical examiner giving murder advice.

513
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: I can understand why that would frustrate people in the government. Certainly, Yeah,

514
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't call that ideal behavior from a

515
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: corner that said, I'm sure it was a fun article. Now,

516
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: Baden denies having ever even given the interview. Um. The

517
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: reporter later admitted that he'd used Biden's words out of context.

518
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: But I really don't know exactly what happened here. Again,

519
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: I wasn't there. Suffolk County did offer to take him back.

520
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: Dr Biden decided to move on, so he built a

521
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: new career for himself, this time as a celebrity medical

522
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: pathologist coroner to the stars. So, yeah, he's a bad guy.

523
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah he's not a They're gonna wear anything I said

524
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: about nuance. He's bad. He's gonna go to hell. That's

525
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: not really the job you pick if you're like a

526
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: good dude. I think now, for the next several decades

527
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: up to the present day, whenever someone famous would die

528
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: or get murdered, you could be pretty sure that Dr

529
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: Michael Baiden was going to be there to take a

530
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: six figure consulting fee for the defense or the prosecution

531
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: in the court case that resulted. His first big case

532
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: was the overdose death of John Belushi in nine. A

533
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: New York Times headline at the time makes it seem

534
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: like this was about the easiest gigg pathologist could have quote.

535
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: Pathologist sites heroin and death of Belushi, which like not

536
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: not a real stretch. Um. Now, the prosecution that case

537
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: was working to prove that Kathy Evelyn Smith should stand

538
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: trial for murder since she'd been the one injecting Belushi

539
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: with drugs. Testifying for the prosecution, Dr Baden said that

540
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: if not for the heroine, Belushi would not have died

541
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: that night, and she did get in a shipload of

542
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: trouble for that, which I don't know, I don't have

543
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: a strong opinion on. Like, on one hand, she definitely

544
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: helped him do the thing that killed himself. On the

545
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: other hand, if you read a lot about John Belushi,

546
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: he was going to die that way with regards if

547
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: someone was not injecting him with heroin like he was.

548
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: He was making horrible choices in that last couple of years. Um,

549
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: and it seems like everybody around him was pretty aware

550
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: of what was going on. Yeah, Um, really sad story. Yeah,

551
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel I don't feel qualified to wade

552
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: into no, no, kind of yeah. And obviously like that

553
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: one you look at, like his role in that, there's

554
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: nothing sketchy about that. They brought him into rule on

555
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: whether or not the fact that she was injecting with

556
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: heroin was a factor in his death, and it was,

557
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: and he ruled it seems accurately on that one. So

558
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: that's that's and the Los Angeles this medical examiner concurred

559
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: with him here, So it's hard to view this as

560
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: anything but in an accurate assessment of the evidence. Now,

561
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: over the next decade, Dr Baden mostly stuck to safe

562
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: cases where there was little danger of his work doing

563
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: anyone damage. He investigated the death of the czar in

564
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: the murder of the Lindbergh Baby. Um. Interestingly enough, Dr

565
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: Baden claims the Lindbergh Baby never had a fractured skull.

566
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: He believes it was smothered. No other pathologists seemed to

567
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: agree with him, and fractured skull is still listed as

568
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: the baby's cause of death. I don't know how the

569
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: baby died, but he had to take on the Lindbergh Baby.

570
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: You're leaving a lot of blanks in your reporting their evans.

571
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: I tried to dig up the Lindbergh baby's corpse. It

572
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: turns out that that is hard to do and also

573
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: considered ghoulish, uh and horrible. Um. So I learned a

574
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: lot of lessons working on this story. Um yeah, and

575
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: I'd like to apologize to the Lindberg family finally. Finally. Yeah,

576
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things I actually should apologize to

577
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: them for, but that's that's personal. Um. Now. Dr Michael

578
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: Bayden didn't really run into trouble in his new field

579
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: until nine Now that is the year you might remember this,

580
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: or in fall James Simpson went on trial from murdering

581
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: Too Human Beings Now. Prosecutors contended that the attacks had

582
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: happened very quickly. Um. And this, like the fact that

583
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: he had killed his victims very quickly, was necessary for

584
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: the prosecution's timeline um to be accurate. O. J had

585
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: to have been able to drive back to his home

586
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: before eleven pm on June twelve, so like it needed

587
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: to have been a quick murder. So it became part

588
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: of the defense's job to show that the murder had

589
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: taken a long time. Because if the murder had taken

590
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: a long time rather than being short, and the prosecutions

591
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: timeline was sucked up, and then it would be easier

592
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: to get O J. Off. You know, you're you're trying

593
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: to disrupt whatever case the other side is making. So

594
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: the defense needed to be able to show that had

595
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: been a slow drawn out affair with a later time

596
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: of death, which would have, you know, helped exonerate O J.

597
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: And make his side of things seem more credible. Just

598
00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: a nice casual reminder that in high profile murder cases, uh,

599
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: its sides are going to be like, you know, would

600
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: be really helpful if these were the facts and you've

601
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: got yeah, professionals who were like, yeah, okay, then I'll

602
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: make him. We'll do it. Oh yeah, yeah, you'll pay

603
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: me how many hundreds of thousands of dollars of course exactly,

604
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: and that that was that was his job. That was

605
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: Dr Baiden's job in the O J. Simpson case. The

606
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: chief corner of l A, the guy who was not

607
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to weigh in

608
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: who was you know, it was just his job to

609
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: weigh in on murders. Told jurors that he believed that

610
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: a single attacker had murdered both victims very quickly after

611
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: lying in wait in the house. So O J's defense

612
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: needed to counter this conclusion by the l A corner,

613
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: and they went to Dr. Michael Baden for that. Baden

614
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: slammed the l A Coroner's office for performing a crappy

615
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: autopsy uh and argued that Nichole Simpson had struggled and

616
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: was not unconscious when her throat was slashed. He claimed

617
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: the wounds on her hands were defensive. He also argued

618
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: that the cut on O. J's hand was not meaningful.

619
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: Uh and I'm gonna quote from the Chicago Tribune now

620
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: and trying to minimize the cuts importance. Baden revealed to

621
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: the jury for the first time since Simpson's conflicting store

622
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: about how he injured his hand. During an examination the

623
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: week after the murder's Baden recalled that Simpson had said

624
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: he'd cut himself in Los Angeles rushing to pack for

625
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 1: a business trip to Chicago. He said he wasn't quite

626
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: sure how he had cut himself and noticed he had

627
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: been bleeding, but didn't know how it came about. Baden

628
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: testified he recalled some blood after trying to retrieve his

629
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: phone or some material from the Bronco. Now. Since defense

630
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: attorneys have previously argued that police must have planted Simpson's

631
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: blood in his driveway and Foyer Baden's revelation could help

632
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: the prosecution, But Simpson told the doctor he cut the

633
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: back of his left middle finger when he smashed a

634
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: glass in his Chicago hotel room and anguish upon learning

635
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: of his ex wife's murder. He said he was at

636
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: a sink or something and squeezed or broke or banged

637
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: a glass along a sink top and somehow cut the

638
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: back of his finger, Baden said. Prosecutor Brian Kellberg suggested

639
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: that Simpson's account of how he got the cut doesn't

640
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: hold up under scrutiny. How, in your opinion, can somebody

641
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: get a cut on the back of their hand by

642
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: slamming a glass down without having any cuts or injuries

643
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: on the palm, Kilberg said. Baden countered that Simpson could

644
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: have brushed the broken glass with the back of his hand.

645
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: Then Kelberg displayed photographs of simpson Chicago hotel bathroom shortly

646
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: after he checked out. No blood stained the broken glass,

647
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: shards in the white ink, or a white tail crumpled

648
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: to one side. Do you see any evidence of blood?

649
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: And those photographs. Kelbert gasked, no, I do not. Biden said, so,

650
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: that's interesting. He he didn't do a great job. He

651
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: kind of fucked up for the defense. And also like

652
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: that the reason I read that whole cross examination cases,

653
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 1: it makes it really clear it's his job to defend

654
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: o j um Like, when he gets hired on one

655
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 1: of these cases, he's not giving his unverartershed medical opinion.

656
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: It's his job to help the defense. And that's what

657
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: he was, Like, he was arguing for the defense there. Um, yeah,

658
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: that's what this guy does. Um. So again, when this

659
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: guy says Jeffrey Epstein was murdered and is hired by

660
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: his brother, he was hired by Epstein's brother to say

661
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: that Epstein was murdered. Like, that's pretty clear. Um Now.

662
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: In two thousand seven, Dr Baden wound up at the

663
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: helm of another high profile Hollywood murder case. This time

664
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: he was hired by the defense for record executive Phil Specter. Now,

665
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: Specter was charged with shooting actress Lanta Clark sent to

666
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: death in his gigantic mansion, a crime he absolutely committed.

667
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: Still in prison for it and will be until he dies. Uh. Now.

668
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: One of the most damning pieces of evidence. Supporting this

669
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: was the fact that Specter's jacket for the night had

670
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: Clarkson's blood on it. Now, this made the defenses case,

671
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: which is that she'd committed suicide with Specter's gun, seem

672
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: less likely. Now. Dr Baden slid in to explain this away.

673
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: He argued that although he'd attended her autopsy four years prior,

674
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: he'd recently concluded that her spinal cord had not in

675
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: fact been severed by a bullet, making it possible for

676
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: her to have spewed blood on Phil Specter after shooting

677
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: herself in the face. During cross examination, the prosecutor asked

678
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: Dr Baiden if he had any conflicts of interest in

679
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: this case that might impact his testimony. He said, none

680
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: that I can think of. You wanna you want to

681
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: guess as to whether or not he had conflicts of interest?

682
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: I think he probably did, but I'd like you to

683
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: confirm that for me. Yeah. Um, yeah, so he he

684
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: kind of did. His wife was one of Phil Specter's

685
00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: defense attorneys. Cool that that might be a conflict of interest.

686
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: I'm not a law guy. Yeah, his wife. Dr Baden's

687
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: wife was Phil Specter's defense one of his defense attorneys.

688
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: I mean, what am I doing wrong? How come I

689
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: kicking a wife? Have you tried something forever? Someone? For

690
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: everyone out there? You know, they have a pretty cute

691
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: story have Yeah. Oh yeah, we'll talk about it in

692
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: a little bit, but I want to talk about your

693
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: romantic issues. Have you tried defendings Phil Specter in court?

694
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: Not in court? No, okay, just just socially. I know

695
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: you you're a big Specter fan. Yeah, like I like

696
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: I I host a semi regular It's like dinner slash

697
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: variety show in my salon where people come and perform.

698
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: That's some people just uh, their performances, the food that

699
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: they bring for everyone, Like we all share everything. It's

700
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: a very very chill group. And I, uh, for the

701
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: tenth time in a row, I comprehensively defend Phil Specter,

702
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: and like, I think, I'm just doing it for the

703
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: love of the sport at this point because no one's

704
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: challenging me. Mostly convinced the group. Well that I mean,

705
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: thank you for your service. Um yeah, that's a really

706
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: a noble endeavor. I can think of no one who's

707
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: been railroaded by the justice system more than Phil Spector.

708
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: And it's just a nice night. There are no there

709
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: are no phones. Put our phones in a bucket and

710
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: just just celebrate ourselves and our talents and the truth. Yeah,

711
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: I I have a similar regular get together. But to

712
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: argue that Michael Jackson was murdered. UM, and yeah, yeah,

713
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: it's nice. It's nice to get together with friends and

714
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: um talk about celebrities and crime. Um. I don't know

715
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: where this bit is supposed to go. You know where

716
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: this bit is gonna go? Dan, actually right into products

717
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: and services? Oh sick. I love product products yep, and

718
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: and maybe a service or two. And we're back. We're

719
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: ac and we are talking about variety shows, Phil Specter

720
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: and actually we're we're we're talking about Dr Baton. It's

721
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: time to get back into that. So we we just

722
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: talked about his lovely wife who defended Phil Specter in

723
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: the court in his lack of conflict of interest as

724
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: a result of that. UM. Now, Dr Baden has spent

725
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: a lot of his career in a world where accuracy

726
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: is less important than showmanship. He was the primary analyst

727
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: for the HBO series Autopsy for all nine seasons of

728
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: its run. Uh and he was like an on screen

729
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: presence for that He wrote two nonfiction books, Natural Death,

730
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: Confessions of a Medical Examiner and Dead Reckoning The New

731
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: Science of Catching Killers. He also co authored to fiction

732
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: books with his wife, Remains Silent and Skeleton Justice. Uh,

733
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: just love it. I love those titles. Now, these are

734
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: interesting stories Dan. Both books center around a dynamic duo

735
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: New York City Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Jake Rosen, Philomena

736
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 1: Manny Man Frida, a beautiful crusade attorney. According to Amazon,

737
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: the two fall in love and solve murders. I love that. Yeah,

738
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: it's pretty great. I love that in his fantasy fiction

739
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: he gives himself the job he got fired from. Yeah,

740
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: that's very very Yes. So I'm going to read from

741
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: the Amazon description of the book, Skeleton Justice, which is

742
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: just a great title. Jake's careful forensic examinations, Manny's courtroom tenaciousness,

743
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: and an unusual clue suggesting that a high ranking politician

744
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: has risen from the grave. Take the pair from the

745
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: bowels of the morgue to the world of international intrigue.

746
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: At the heart of this story is a tragic tale

747
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: of corruption, interlaced with cover ups, conspiracies, death squads, and

748
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 1: dictators who committed crimes that to this day go unpunished.

749
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: So uh, there you go. Yeah, I think a cool

750
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: thing for listeners to do at home if they, like me,

751
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: didn't know what Michael Baden looked like and just decided

752
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: to look for the first time. Now this is the risk.

753
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: Is the right time to do it? Yeah, he is.

754
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: You definitely want to picture him fucking a crusading and

755
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: beautiful attorney. Yeah, absolutely absolutely. You know, you know what

756
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 1: he looks like. Who is that fucking the warmonger guy

757
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: that used to be part of Trump's cabinet and or

758
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: then he got in he got fired with a mustache? Yeah, Bolton.

759
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: He looks like if Bolton like ate his sadness away

760
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: for like nine months, this is how Bolton would look.

761
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: He's there's a will for Brimley quality to him, but like, yeah,

762
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: he's Brimley asked for a meanness to him. But he's

763
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: certainly he it's my brain is doing a Mandela thing

764
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: because he he feels very at place in Trump's cabinet.

765
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: Like I'm not positive that he's not on the cabinet

766
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: somewhere because he just has that look that they all have.

767
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: He could be the secretary for Health and Services. I'm

768
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: looking at a picture of him right now pointing an

769
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: a graph at a press conference, and like, yeah, he

770
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: does it the way a Trump guy would point at

771
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: a graph. Like it's weird to say that, but he's

772
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: he's got the exact Yeah, he does look like that. Yeah,

773
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: my god, Um, what a what a what a fella? Now,

774
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: in more recent years, Dr Biden was hired by the

775
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: family of Michael Brown to analyze his autopsy report and testify.

776
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: His report concluded that there were no signs of a

777
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: struggle and that Brown had been shot six times. Now,

778
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: this is more or less consistent with the other reports

779
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: on Brown's death, um, except for the fact that he

780
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 1: stated with certainty that Brown had been shot exactly six times.

781
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: A lot of Dr Biden's colleagues critiqued him for this,

782
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: um because it's actually really hard to tell in a

783
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: case like that, especially when someone shot, like right over concrete,

784
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: how many times they were shot, because the bullets tend

785
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: to pierce them and then ricochet back, so it often

786
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: someone will have six holes in them, but the only

787
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: have been shot three times. Um. So NBC talked to

788
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: a pathologist who was very critical of Baden for staying

789
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: confidently how many times Brown had been shot. He said

790
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: Brown was way too confident for someone who hadn't seen

791
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: X rays, clothing, or lab reports, all of which can

792
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: be important. It was also worrying that Brown had been embalmed,

793
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: because that would alter the color of the wounds, potentially

794
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: throwing off Baden's analysis of entry and exit wounds. In

795
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: his count of six bullets, it could be that only

796
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: three bullets made those wounds. The pathologists said, So I

797
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: I quote that not because like he was wrong overall,

798
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: Like Michael Brown wasn't struggling. He was murdered, obviously, but

799
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,479
Speaker 1: like the fact that he's talking about exactly how many

800
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: times the dude was shot um when he can't have

801
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: known that, And like as this other pathologists note, he

802
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: didn't see the X rays, the clothing, all of all

803
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: of this context that's critical to actually making an accurate

804
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: assessment of a case. He didn't know that. He just

805
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: wanted to have a take, um, because it was his

806
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: job to have a take, and so he gave a

807
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: take without having the information he would Actually, it's fun

808
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: to have takes. Dolphins, girl, sharks, it's fun. Dolphins all

809
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: are are in fact girl sharks. Um. That is the

810
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: official stance of this podcast, and I think it's fair

811
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: to say the facial stance of I heart media. Um yeah,

812
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: I can dictate corporate policy r E. Dolphins. That's in

813
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: my contract now. Um. Fellow pathologists are generally pretty critical

814
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: of Dr Baden. One former classmate of the doctors who

815
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: also worked as a medical examiner, said this of him,

816
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: He's very bright, but he has a propensity for giving

817
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: out statements and testimony which are not entirely accurate. Uh.

818
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: Dr Lowell Levine, who was the co director to compliment

819
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: Sandwich that, you know, he seems very clever or whatever.

820
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: He's a smart guy, but he lies all the time. Yeah,

821
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: he's a good doctor whose patients always die. He's dangerously

822
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: unfit with tremendous consequences. But his book, Oh my god,

823
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: the fucking in that book. I will tell you if

824
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: you want to come while reading someone else's fantasy fiction,

825
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: that's the book. Um. Yeah. Dr Lowell Levine, who was

826
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: co director for pathology for the New York State Police

827
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: and like alongside Dr Baden and worked with him, said this,

828
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: Michael never saw a camera he didn't like. He used

829
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: to yell at me about the press. They're just trying

830
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: to make a living. Why don't you help them? So

831
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: this guy, he likes being in front of cameras. He

832
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: likes the attention. It's not just about the money. It's

833
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: also about being a part of the story, a trade

834
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: shared by all the most normal, balanced people, all of

835
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: the healthiest people in the world. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So

836
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: it shouldn't come as a shock that Dr Michael Baden

837
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: found his way into the employe of Jeffrey Epstein's brother.

838
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: He did not conduct an autopsy and Epstein he did

839
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: observe the autopsy. Uh and again. The bulk of his

840
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: case that Epstein was murdered centers around the fact that

841
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: Epstein's hyoid bone was fractured in three places. Baden calls

842
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: this very unusual for suicide and more indicative of strangulation

843
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 1: homicidal strangulation. Interestingly, Baden has recently claimed that the doctor

844
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: who performed the autopsy didn't sign off on Epstein's cause

845
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: of death is suicide. Dr Baden claims the call was

846
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: made by the Chief Medical Examiner for New York City,

847
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: which is the person holding the same job he got

848
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: fired from. Doing um now. He insinuated on Fox and

849
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: Friends that this was strange, But the reality seems to

850
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: be that for a case this high profile, it's not

851
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: unusual for the chief medical examiner to want to make

852
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: that final call um and to not make that call

853
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: just during the autopsy, because again, like that other medical

854
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: examiners stated, there's other ship outside of the autopsy that

855
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: you look at to try to determine what happened um,

856
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: So it's not really weird that things would have proceeded

857
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: this way. Rolling Stone interviewed Dr Judy Melinick, a pathologist,

858
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: and she pointed out that highoid bone fractures happened in

859
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 1: suicide too, and that depending on the placement of the rope,

860
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: it would not be at all weird for this for

861
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: have happened to Epstein, if the fractures are nowhere near

862
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: the ligature furrow, and if there are defensive injuries on

863
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: the arms, and the case is more consistent with the

864
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: homicide being covered up than a suicidal hanging. If there

865
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: are no other injuries to the body and the highoid

866
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: and thyroid fractures correspond to the location of the furrow,

867
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: then it could realistically be a hanging suicide. So again,

868
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: he doesn't really give you all of the context that

869
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: a professional who's not making money and just trying to

870
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 1: get in front of a camera is going to give you. UM.

871
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone also spoke with Dr Pria Banergy, who's another

872
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: UH forensic pathologist. Her comments are interesting to me, particularly

873
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: in light of the criticisms made against Dr Baden after

874
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: his work on the Brown murder. The reason we do

875
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: full autopsies is to make sure that the outsides and

876
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: the insides correlate and that everything makes sense. I always

877
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: do an autopsy with a skeptical lens. In addition, any

878
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: death and custody is scrutinized and find detailed to evaluate

879
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: what led to the person's death. Now, Bandergy agreed that

880
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: the broken hyoid bone was worrisome and definitely worthy of

881
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: further investigation, but she didn't go on TV and say

882
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: that she thought Epstein's death was probably homicide. Because she's

883
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: a responsible medical professional. Doesn't really UNDI she has a

884
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: future in the field. No, she's not going to be

885
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: making O. J. Simpson money, that's for sure. UM. Now.

886
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: Dr Samson, who's the Chief Medical Examiner of New York,

887
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: who declared Epstein's death of suicide continues to stand behind

888
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: that conclusion. She pointed out, no one finding can be

889
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: taken in isolation, uh, and referred to the complete investigation

890
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: conducted by her office as opposed to just the autopsy

891
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: that Dr Baden witnessed. So like, that's that's the story

892
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: of Dr Baden. I'm not saying Epstein wasn't murdered. I'm

893
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: not saying I know what happened. I'm saying that, like

894
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: all of this ship that keeps coming out that people

895
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: take is damning stories is more indicative of like the

896
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: media cycle around this and the need for there to

897
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: be stories about it than it is about a smoking gun,

898
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: because there's just not one. It's like, in a lot

899
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: of cases, it's worth knowing the source of this statement.

900
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: It's it's important to have the context of like, yes

901
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: he said this, and uh, you know, there is a

902
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: chance that Epstein was murdered, But like look who you're loo,

903
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: who you're listening to. Yeah, you're listening to the guy

904
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: who was hired to say that. Yeah, yeah, it's his job.

905
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's our fun story today. Um, are

906
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: are you are you? Are you happy? Dan. Uh, Yeah,

907
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: I'm always pretty happy. Hey, beier than you were with

908
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: the last Epstein episode, much happier than I was the

909
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: last episode, and not just because it was wildly depressing

910
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: last time and he's fucking dead now. But um, I

911
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: have to digest so much news for work, and a

912
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: lot of it is either very breaking news about something

913
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: that happened that week or news that has just stories

914
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: that have been building for years and years and have

915
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: hours of footage around them that I don't get to

916
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: keep up with everything. You know, I missed so many things,

917
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: and I like that I could just sit down with

918
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: you and you could tell me that the news that

919
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: I missed, it's very very helpful. Yeah, and now you know, uh,

920
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: the rest of the story or slightly more of the story.

921
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: Has this changed how you're leaning our e suicide or

922
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: murder for Epstein? I think I'm leading suicide. I'm not

923
00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: going to take the stand on that or anything like,

924
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: but everything you've laid out makes a pretty compelling case

925
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: for it. Yeah. I'm not gonna take a strong stance either, because, like,

926
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: the dude did have dirt on two presidents, including one

927
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: sitting president, and like a royal family member and like

928
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: that's just the top of the list. So like, yeah, fun,

929
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who wanted the son of

930
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: a bit dead, um, but like I'm not seeing any

931
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: evidence for that yet. Um. And I think people need

932
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: to chill out and a trust that, like, we're just

933
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: not going to get any good information about this for

934
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: a while. Um, it's just going to be shipped like

935
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: Dr Baden trying to stay in the news. So that said,

936
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: I also think I think you'll convince listeners like me

937
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: who knew a little bit about this but not too much,

938
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: that there's not a conspiracy there. But I think the

939
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: people who already believe this is a conspiracy and they're

940
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: like fucket, Hilary Clinton killed f Stein with her hands.

941
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: That's like they're they're they're lost, man, you're not gonna

942
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: get them. Yeah belief. I yeah, it's we all know

943
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: like Hillary Clinton did nine eleven, but I don't think

944
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: she killed Jeffrey Epps. Um. Yeah. Yeah, that, like I

945
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: think we should all just stop living in this this

946
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: conspiratorial world and start trying to make sure that she

947
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: she faces justice for her nine elevening. Yeah, it was

948
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: so crazy when when everyone was like Hillary Clinton ben Ghazi,

949
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: which you know she did do also the whole time,

950
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, gods, there's a bigger fish. What are you doing?

951
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: There's nine eleven. We've all seen the pictures of her

952
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: flying those planes into the towers and people shooting out.

953
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: She did both of them. Yeah, she is, I mean,

954
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: in fairness to her, an incredible pilot. Um like one

955
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: of the greatest of her generation. Um, it's a shame

956
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: she used her powers for evil. Well, that's gonna be

957
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: all for us today on Behind the Bastards um Uh

958
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: tweeted us with hashtag Hillary Clinton nine eleven Justice. UM.

959
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure that will. It had to lead to some

960
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: really fun mentions for both of us. Um, Dan, you

961
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: got any pluggable to plug? Yeah, the season finale of

962
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: the show that I write for will be on that

963
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: week and then we'll be off for a couple of

964
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: months for a nice hiatus. So watched the season finale. Uh,

965
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: it's very A lot of people, a tremendous amount of

966
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: people work very hard to get every episode of this

967
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: show onto your TV or or phone. Um, and so

968
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: watch it because because a lot of us loosely making it.

969
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 1: Now the show that you work for is is Last

970
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: Week Tonight with Communities? John Oliver, Yes, that's right. Did

971
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: I not mentioned the name of the show? You did

972
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: not mention the name of the very popular and influential

973
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: TV show that you write for and won an Emmy

974
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: for writing for. I'm so cool. Oh my god, that's

975
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: punk Rock. I gotta ask with the Emmy, do you

976
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: wear it around your neck? Ever? Like when you go

977
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: to the gym? I found when we like the night

978
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: you win the Emmy, you they just hand it to

979
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: you and then you walk around with it because you

980
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: don't go like the hotel is far from where the

981
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: Emmys are, so you just go to the party's carrying

982
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: as emmy. You're at the Governor's Ball in the HBO

983
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: party in the last week to night party with an

984
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: Emmy in your hand, and strangers, some of whom are famous,

985
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: will say congratulations to you. So I've just never left

986
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: the house without it. I don't have it on my

987
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: neck or anything like that. But but as soon as

988
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: I discovered that people say congratulations to you and you

989
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: hold an Emmy, and and my brain was like more

990
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: of this, please, I've just I mean, it's filthy because

991
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: I have not let go of it. M M. Yeah,

992
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: if you've seen me in the street with the Emmy,

993
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: say congratulations to me please. Oh yeah, no, I I will,

994
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: but I will not shake your filthy emmy hand. Um

995
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: no no. Um, well that's Dan. Give him congratulations on

996
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 1: his Emmy and ask him how various famous people smell,

997
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 1: um in case he's met them and some of them. Um, yeah,

998
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: I was talking about smells. You were to come out

999
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: to New York. What You're gonna come out in New

1000
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: York visit? Yeah, you know, I think I think my

1001
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: my I might wind up there next year to do

1002
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: some work. Um, I'm hoping. So I love the apple

1003
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: that never is small as people call it. Um. So

1004
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: we'll we'll have a we'll have an Emmy party. Um

1005
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: and uh yeah. You can find this podcast on the

1006
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: internet at behind the Bastards dot com. You can find

1007
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: us on Twitter and Instagram at Bastards pod. Um. You

1008
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: can buy t shirts at Tea Public. Uh. And you know,

1009
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: if you want to steal an Emmy and mail it

1010
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: to me, Uh, then I too will be able to

1011
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 1: get compliments from strangers in the street. Um. So you know,

1012
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: I don't know who who who who's easy to rob

1013
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: this one in Emmy? I don't know. Try Will Wheaton.

1014
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: He did he win an Emmy. I don't think so well,

1015
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 1: rob will wait in either way, UM well, maybe don't

1016
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 1: do that. Should not be urging people to commit specific

1017
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: crimes on the podcast. Give Will Wheaton an Emmy and

1018
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: then take it from him so that it's technically not

1019
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: a crime. I should just give you know what. I

1020
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: gotta tell you, man, from one right or to another,

1021
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: you are sticking the landing here. Thank you, thank you.

1022
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: We try to end every episode gracefully um and with

1023
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: a plomb. Um. So the show's done. Yeah, good h