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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told you productive iHeartRadio, and today we are

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Speaker 1: back with our first book club of twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: with a very recent novel from twenty twenty three. So spoilers,

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Speaker 1: trying to avoid them, I will say I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the ending too much, so if you

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Speaker 1: were go and read it.

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Speaker 2: This was a TikTok vine by the way, that was

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Speaker 2: intriguing to me because fan fiction which is anything, and

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Speaker 2: then you had talked about what pad, which is like

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Speaker 2: what is typically used for cap pop fan fiction, and

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Speaker 2: I did when I was looking up yan the first

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Speaker 2: one of the third results was bts yn, So I

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Speaker 2: guess it's a huge thing. I know nothing about this,

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Speaker 2: but I was interested by the description the TikToker was

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Speaker 2: giving and including Kofka esque, which I do like Kafka.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to see that level of surreal novelist today,

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Speaker 2: which I guess China Melville is kind of similar to

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Speaker 2: that to me, because go ahead, this is this is

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Speaker 2: not my style of uh fiction and for me, like

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Speaker 2: the surrealist UH not my thing because it takes me

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Speaker 2: forever to figure out what the g is happening, which

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Speaker 2: was the theme in this entire thing for me as

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Speaker 2: I was, I was listening to Audible not a sponsor

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Speaker 2: right now, but like I was like, what's happening? Who?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of my thing. China Melville apparently bt'd up.

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Speaker 2: Side note, Uh did a novel with Keanu Reeves just

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Speaker 2: recently recently. Oh okay, just say you know, oh moving on.

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Speaker 1: That's just funny because I'm going to talk about some

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Speaker 1: of my experiences in this realm. And I did have

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Speaker 1: a huge crush on Keanu Reeves's neo, so it's just

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Speaker 1: kind of funny relationship I wasn't expecting. Yes, it is

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Speaker 1: very surreal. So we are talking about the twenty three

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Speaker 1: novel by Esther Ye called y N or y slash

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Speaker 1: N that stands for your name for people who don't

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Speaker 1: know the fan fiction world. But basically I.

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Speaker 2: Was one of those week bleasses for the longest time.

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Speaker 2: I thought was yes no, which is implied in them

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Speaker 2: in the novel as well.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, what, yes, I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: about my experience with this. So basically it is a

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Speaker 1: type of self insert fan fiction wherein it will be

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Speaker 1: a character in my experience, usually a dude and they

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Speaker 1: are with your name, and as the reader, you are

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Speaker 1: supposed to put in your name. You can even like

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Speaker 1: download it and it will replace your name for every

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Speaker 1: instance that it says, why slash and Wayan. So it

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Speaker 1: is a type of fan fiction. So the story follows

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Speaker 1: our narrator, who by the way, we never get her name,

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Speaker 1: after she becomes obsessed with a member of a K

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Speaker 1: pop band named Moon, eventually leaving. She eventually goes to

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Speaker 1: Seoul in South Korea because he kind of disappears and

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Speaker 1: she's located in Berlin, Germany. At first she goes in

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Speaker 1: order to find him. It is a very surreal story.

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Speaker 1: It blurs the lines between fanfic, fandom and reality. And yes,

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Speaker 1: she does post this self insert fanfic online after attending

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Speaker 1: a concert with a flatmate, which by the way, she

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Speaker 1: did not seem interested in going to.

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Speaker 2: Feel like she's one of those that was like, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be caught up in this, I'm not something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, then she really did and she knew herself very quickly.

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Speaker 1: It happens. Yes, So while she is in Soul, she

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Speaker 1: meets a woman named Oh who works at a shoe

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Speaker 1: factory and O enters the narrator's name into a lottery

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Speaker 1: to go to the band's headquarters, and the narrator wins

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Speaker 1: and she meets Moon, and later she returns to Oh

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Speaker 1: who wants the narrator to feel something real And it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like the message goes home. But it deals

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Speaker 1: with fandom obsessions, celebrity culture, loneliness, and parasocial relationships. It

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Speaker 1: is an award winning debut for Ye, who has said

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Speaker 1: that it's an examination on mass consumption.

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Speaker 2: And who.

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Speaker 1: And how we interact with art and literature. But she

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Speaker 1: has been cleared it is not a criticism of K

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Speaker 1: pop and fandom. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think she mentions just like her fascination, I love

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Speaker 2: something so much.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And we do have a couple quotes throughout this

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Speaker 1: one from her. Most of them are from an in

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Speaker 1: pr interview that she did about this book. Here's one

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Speaker 1: to speak, I guess specifically to my narrator's case. It

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Speaker 1: seems to me that she wants, and again related to

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Speaker 1: this desire for love, to practice devotion. But it seems

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Speaker 1: to me that she is capable of meditating upon a

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Speaker 1: single object for a very long period of time. And

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Speaker 1: of course there's a lot of irony in the fact

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Speaker 1: that she is choosing to practice this meditation upon one

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Speaker 1: of the most you know, poppy, rapid pace forms of

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Speaker 1: cultural consumption right now. But that's where she wants to

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Speaker 1: do it. I'm not judgmental about, you know, K pop

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Speaker 1: or celebrity culture. That's really not my intention for the book.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a journalist. I'm not here to write some

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Speaker 1: kind of takedown or critique. I'm just very curious about

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Speaker 1: this form of worship, and I take it very seriously

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Speaker 1: in some sense. But it seems to me that it's

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Speaker 1: speaking to some kind of absence within our current landscape. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and this is especially interesting because the author is has

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Speaker 1: like the same background as the narrator, which I think

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Speaker 1: is on purpose. Like at the end, there's a scene

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Speaker 1: there's like a movie of a painting. I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's like that. Yeah, yes, yes, And I did want

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Speaker 1: to before we get into the themes, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: briefly talk about my experience with why in fan fiction,

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Speaker 1: because I think that there is sort of a misunderstanding

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Speaker 1: or like maybe not even that, but I feel personally

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Speaker 1: in my long story experience with fiction even if it's

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Speaker 1: not a self insert fick, which by the way, is

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting because it's supposed to be the reader

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Speaker 1: inserts themselves, not necessarily the writer. Usually there is some

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Speaker 1: element of self insert fick to any fan fiction. This

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Speaker 1: is my opinion. I could be wrong, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's usually one character that you're like, that's me,

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Speaker 1: or I'm vibing with that person, orm connecting with that person,

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Speaker 1: and that's a lot of our art is that's not

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Speaker 1: like unique to fan fiction necessarily, But I just think

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Speaker 1: like there is a misunderstanding around, well, why in fan

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Speaker 1: fiction is only this and it's different from every other

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Speaker 1: fan fiction. I personally think that a lot of fan

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Speaker 1: fiction is let me put myself in the story somehow,

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Speaker 1: or let me experience something with a character somehow, and

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Speaker 1: that can be various levels. I personally don't really read

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Speaker 1: why in fan fiction because the part I like the

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Speaker 1: other people doing the thing, I don't necessarily want to

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Speaker 1: do the thing, so I don't really read it, but

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Speaker 1: I see it all the time. Is a popular type

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Speaker 1: of fan fiction. I also was thinking about this because

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Speaker 1: I have had huge celebrity crushes in my life. It's

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Speaker 1: usually more of like the fictional character they play. But

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Speaker 1: you know, but one time I was thinking about this

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Speaker 1: because I've kind of jokingly told the story of the

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Speaker 1: time I wrote a self insert fan fiction of me

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Speaker 1: and Billy Joel Armstrong from Green Day and I never

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Speaker 1: published it. It's just for me. I burnt it, so

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Speaker 1: we'll never know the beauties of what it was, but

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Speaker 1: in it because I was thinking about it, and I

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Speaker 1: remember thinking when I wrote it, this is a halfly married,

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Speaker 1: way older man. So it wasn't about the romance part.

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Speaker 1: It was like I just wanted someone to validate me,

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Speaker 1: Like I just wanted to like somebody that I respected

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Speaker 1: and did think he was hot, but I just wanted

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Speaker 1: There was no like I want to end up with him.

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Speaker 1: It was more like I want to be in the

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Speaker 1: band with you. I learned to play guitar for this

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Speaker 1: whole thing. So sometimes the book talks about this a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Sometimes it's not even like a sexual thing

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Speaker 1: or like a romantic thing. It's just like some you

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Speaker 1: want to feel desire, weird or validated. I'll share some

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Speaker 1: stories throughout that for content warning, There is a brief

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Speaker 1: discussion of kind of disordered eating, an obsession also cicadas,

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Speaker 1: which was funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought the same thing. I was like, let's

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Speaker 2: spread this. Was she thinking about cicadas already, or but

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Speaker 2: it doesn't like pop out? Or was this after I.

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Speaker 1: Know the cicadas. Sounds like it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: messing thing this summer.

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Speaker 2: Also, South Korea is going to hit some things too.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. God, okay, So let's get into some themes.

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Speaker 1: And one of them has already alluded to with that

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Speaker 1: quote is kind of fandom as religion or religious awakening.

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Speaker 1: So here's a quote. What I feared most wasn't death,

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Speaker 1: our global cataclysm, was that everyday capitulations that chipped away

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Speaker 1: at the monument of seriousness that was a soul. My

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Speaker 1: spiritual sphincter stayed clinched to keep out the cheap and stupid.

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Speaker 1: So this is early on when she's like, no, I

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Speaker 1: don't need to get involved in this, but her friend

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Speaker 1: convinces her to go to a concert and things quickly changed.

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Speaker 1: Here's a quote from that. This screen, as large as

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Speaker 1: a Berlin apartment building lying on its side, reproduced the

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Speaker 1: happenings on stage with astonishing clarity, so that when the

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Speaker 1: five boys drifted in as if by accident, heads bowed

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Speaker 1: and hands clasped over their stomachs. I couldn't fathom how

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Speaker 1: they were real. Bodies as small as grains of rice

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Speaker 1: from where I stood would survive an evening at the

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Speaker 1: feet of their gigantic images, thousands of women erupted into shrieks.

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Speaker 1: I remembered Varva telling me that incidents of shattered ear

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Speaker 1: drums at the boys concerts were rising, prompting the entertainment

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Speaker 1: company that managed them to recommend earplugs. But I saw

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Speaker 1: none being worn by the fans around me. They were

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Speaker 1: finally breathing the same air as the boys. Now was

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Speaker 1: not the time to be less of a body. Yes,

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Speaker 1: as mentioned, all members of the bands are named after

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Speaker 1: celestial objects.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not as I had originally wondered, And I'd still wondered.

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Speaker 2: Because this was written in twenty twenty three. One of

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Speaker 2: the bigger K pop stars had just recently passed away.

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Speaker 2: His name was Moon like I think that's his surname,

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Speaker 2: and he was for Astro, so I wondered if that

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Speaker 2: had any influence. She doesn't know much about K pop,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know. I think she knows like this,

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing this is somewhat based on like bigger fandoms

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Speaker 2: that have a lot of a lot of fanfic out

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Speaker 2: on what Pad specifically, So it goes on with a

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Speaker 2: theme about fandom or obsession, which again maybe this is

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Speaker 2: where I'm like, I don't have hobbies and loves for things,

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Speaker 2: so this is very like, very unaware of this world.

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Speaker 2: So to me, this was really uncomfortable looking. But I

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Speaker 2: also know this is exaggerated, so I was just like,

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Speaker 2: huh hah, this book anyway. So here's a quote. The

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Speaker 2: pack of boys called the their fans livers because we

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Speaker 2: weren't just expensive handbags they carried around. We kept them alive,

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Speaker 2: like critical organs. I suspected they used the English word

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Speaker 2: liver because it sounded like lover. They could be koy

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Speaker 2: like that, but I would much rather be Moon's liver

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Speaker 2: than lover, which was kind of the implication she wants

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Speaker 2: to be inside of his body, not necessarily with his body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we're going to talk about that more.

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Speaker 1: But it is one of the things that is unsettling

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Speaker 1: about this. And I feel like a lot of the

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Speaker 1: uh self insert fan fiction or are just like when

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Speaker 1: you love someone, this was written for a place where

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Speaker 1: she almost seems like she didn't like him. It was

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Speaker 1: like kind of coming from a very cold place, whereas

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Speaker 1: in my experience, a lot of this comes from a

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Speaker 1: very enthusiastic, happy place. Sometimes it's healthy and sometimes it's not,

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Speaker 1: but it's not what the vibe the narrator was giving

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Speaker 1: was very like cold to me. Interesting, But this does

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Speaker 1: hit the narrator hard and fast. She goes from like, no,

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Speaker 1: don't take me to this concert too, I must know everything.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I kind of laughed at

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Speaker 1: this quote, I tapped up my phone with vigor. I

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Speaker 1: do hope you skip the occasional meal. When you're on

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Speaker 1: the thinner side, your soul becomes more visible, almost hypodermic.

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Speaker 1: You become a pure streak of energy, like the blue

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Speaker 1: flame of a blowtorch. But the entertainment company better not

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Speaker 1: put you on a diet that would be disgustingly presumptuous.

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Speaker 1: You know best how to flagellate yourself. No company can

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Speaker 1: be as perverse as you, and i'd reach the end

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Speaker 1: the maximum character count. I pressed enter and watched my

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Speaker 1: block of tech disappear and dream afar with your messages.

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Speaker 1: So kind of like coming into this whole the online

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Speaker 1: social media part of fandom, and already being like, I

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Speaker 1: know you better, these other fans don't know right.

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Speaker 2: This would be the Korean term of say songs, which

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Speaker 2: is the intense fan that hits into what she does,

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Speaker 2: stocklerish and being almost dangerous, possessive and angry that other

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Speaker 2: people can love you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and just like the whole thing of like

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Speaker 1: her telling him about the diet, but like the company

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Speaker 1: shouldn't tell you but me right, Yes, here's another quote.

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Speaker 1: Moon lay on his back. I crawled on top of

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Speaker 1: him and brushed the hair out of his face. He

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Speaker 1: looked back at me with pure recognition. Both encouraged by

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Speaker 1: his gaze and unable to bear it. I closed my

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Speaker 1: eyes and kissed him, but it was like pressing my

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Speaker 1: lips against the back of my own hand. I felt

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Speaker 1: what he felt of me. I felt what I felt like.

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Speaker 1: With a start, I realized I had no sexual desire

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Speaker 1: for Moon. My sexuality simply loved his sexuality totally and unblinkingly,

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Speaker 1: without my needing to know anything about what he did

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Speaker 1: with his I felt disgraced by life. It's strange personal,

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Speaker 1: it's strange personal commandments that I couldn't simply want him.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I think this is sort of an interesting

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Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people don't understand. Again, I

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Speaker 1: feel like this is talking about a lot of times,

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Speaker 1: the person that you're envisioning, whoever that is, is a

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Speaker 1: mirror of what you want, but it is like you.

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Speaker 1: It's still a reflection of you. So in this moment,

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Speaker 1: it's more like this is honestly, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about this more later, but this is like an

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Speaker 1: avatar I've created of someone to sort of feel a void,

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Speaker 1: fill the void that I have. But it's more about

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Speaker 1: you filling that void than you experiencing any kind of

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Speaker 1: like desire sexual need. It's like there's something that's hurting

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Speaker 1: inside me. What can I do? And so it's more

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Speaker 1: of a reflection of you.

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Speaker 2: And another quote, we once turned to philosophy for an

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Speaker 2: interpretation of God, for that which lies beyond our comprehension,

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Speaker 2: But philosophy has relinquished its authority to data. Now we

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Speaker 2: know too much, especially what people want and how to

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Speaker 2: give it to them. Religion is no longer a site

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Speaker 2: of our interminable struggle with negativity. Religion shorn. Philosophy is

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Speaker 2: now a vending machine for manifestation and fulfillment. That's why

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Speaker 2: there are so many lowercase gods in this secular, cynical era,

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Speaker 2: Oblivious to the contradictions. We yearn for spiritual practices that

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Speaker 2: will make us worthy of receiving permanent answers and solutions.

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Speaker 2: A boy band like this Masterson's Waved the Picture of

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Speaker 2: Moon is one such god. Here we have data disguised

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Speaker 2: as philosophy, information disguised as art. We no longer go

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Speaker 2: to church once a week. We attend a stadium concert

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Speaker 2: once a year. This was a quote by her current boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: who she for a while told people was our adopted brother.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, what's happening, what's happening. This is

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Speaker 2: one of those moments in which when he discovers her

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Speaker 2: love for moon is she gets very offended, very offended

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Speaker 2: that he would talk about Moon in such a calm

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Speaker 2: and casual manner of was it a very interesting odd

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Speaker 2: segue of like reality for her right.

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Speaker 1: And I do love that quote we attend a stadium

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Speaker 1: concert once a year, because it's true. And I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, and I've read quotes from the author

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Speaker 1: about what she was kind of intending to capture here,

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Speaker 1: and the relationship between religion and fandom. It's true, you're

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Speaker 1: in a concert, you're in a stadium, you're singing all

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Speaker 1: the songs, you know, all the things, like it's so

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Speaker 1: important to you that you attend, that you have to

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Speaker 1: do these kind of rituals around. It's very interesting.

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Speaker 2: Again, she kind of hits on this one character. But

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Speaker 2: like in the reality, a lot of the fans, diehard

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Speaker 2: fans follow follow the different groups. I've seen a lot

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Speaker 2: of TikTok videos. When BTS's last shows, they went to

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Speaker 2: several different cities, including going to Soul to try to

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Speaker 2: watch them for the final time. So, like so many

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Speaker 2: there are fans who, if they have the disposable income,

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Speaker 2: which by the way is a big TikTok train right now,

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Speaker 2: will do these things. And it's it is not just

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Speaker 2: a show, right for many of them. In another quote,

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Speaker 2: he fees my imagination more than you do. Of course

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Speaker 2: he does, Masterson says, because he exists in your imagination.

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Speaker 2: He's a person breathing, eating and dreaming in Soul, and

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Speaker 2: I'm a person breathing, eating and dreaming in Berlin. Masterson

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Speaker 2: reached over to give my thigh a painful squeeze, and

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Speaker 2: I know you exist right.

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Speaker 1: Here's another quote. I think what you mean is that

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Speaker 1: he designs his lyrical content and sexual appeal with the

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Speaker 1: specific intent of exploiting the most basic of human emotions,

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Speaker 1: like loneliness or the desire for unconditional love, and then

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Speaker 1: derives massive profit from his vampirism. I rolled off the

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Speaker 1: bed and began to dress, checking the picture into my pocket.

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Speaker 1: He works one hundred times harder at our relationship than

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Speaker 1: you do, I said, jamming my foot into my shoe

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Speaker 1: with an aggressive twist of the ankle. He has physical

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Speaker 1: therapy every day because his tendons are on the constant

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Speaker 1: brink of snapping. Can you say the same about your tendons? Yes,

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Speaker 1: So this is all on her mind. She's having these conversations.

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Speaker 1: And then this brings us to online fan culture. Here

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Speaker 1: is a quote. I discovered Archmage not long after. The

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Speaker 1: website contained thousands of fan written stories organized by the

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Speaker 1: celebrity or fictional character featured in them. There were smaller

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Speaker 1: categorizations based on the stories and motive instigation, tagged with

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Speaker 1: what each story quote makes you ellipses my favorite stories

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Speaker 1: about Moon almost always had the tag makes you end friendships. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: most of the stories were unreadable. After all, the authors

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Speaker 1: weren't writers, but fans who had turned to language as

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Speaker 1: a last resort. I could feel the frustration mounting as

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Speaker 1: the pros grew ever more sodden, as the author submitted

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Speaker 1: to yet another cliche, hoping their strange feelings would foment

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Speaker 1: coherently limbed out of the primordial soup of failing story.

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Speaker 1: But I preferred these stories to most contemporary novels, which

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Speaker 1: mirrored the Pietes of the day with observed ardor for

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Speaker 1: all the lone superiorities suggested by their tone of moral indignation,

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Speaker 1: these books were mind numbingly easy to agree with. I

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Speaker 1: preferred reading Fans and Dead People because they were hard

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Speaker 1: to agree with. I couldn't stop thinking about my two

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Speaker 1: love sick characters, so I took my scenes and copied

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Speaker 1: them into a dedicated notebook, then continued the story there.

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Speaker 1: Once I'd completed what felt like a chapter, I typed

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Speaker 1: out the text and published it on Archmage under the

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Speaker 1: username floor floor. So this is interesting because we have

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Speaker 1: talked about this. You can see our past episodes on

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Speaker 1: kpop and fan fiction. By the way, one of the

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Speaker 1: things about fan fiction is that it is you can argue,

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Speaker 1: you can disagree, you can agree. I recently had somebody

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Speaker 1: leave your comments on one of mine that's like, this

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00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: feels so alive because you can like contact, connect with

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Speaker 1: each other. They can give you ideas and you'll put

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Speaker 1: them in and it changes what you thought it was

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Speaker 1: going to be. And that is often very beautiful and fun,

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00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 1: and I think a key aspect of fan fiction. But

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Speaker 1: it can be toxic, as like I don't a lot

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Speaker 1: of that I've like cut out of my experience, but

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Speaker 1: I remember it and I seen it. It still exists.

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Speaker 1: But people get like angry if you perhaps portray there

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Speaker 1: the person they love the most in the way they

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Speaker 1: don't like. A big part of that used to be

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Speaker 1: don't like, don't read, but now it's become more like,

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Speaker 1: I feel I have to defend this person. So here's

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Speaker 1: a quote from you about fan fiction. I think for

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Speaker 1: that reason, I find fan fiction especially really interesting and

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Speaker 1: a really rich mode of expression that, of course a

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Speaker 1: lot of people look down on because it's, you know,

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Speaker 1: it lacks a certain literary polish. But I respect that

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Speaker 1: about fan fiction, Like I respect that fan fiction is

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Speaker 1: so much the product of a compulsion, of a yearning

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Speaker 1: that it almost forgoes all these pretensions of polish, of quality,

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Speaker 1: of sophistication. And in that sense, for me, there's something

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Speaker 1: that's revealed the heart of fan fiction that I think

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Speaker 1: is essential to all great literature, which is this desire

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Speaker 1: to put yourself in the same space as the transcendental,

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Speaker 1: you know, to almost touch the hymn of it without

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Speaker 1: really quite grasping it. Yes, so I think this is

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Speaker 1: interesting because I've talked about this a lot. You can

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Speaker 1: read fan fiction that, in my opinion, is better than

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Speaker 1: what they're making. But it is true that there's something

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Speaker 1: very liberating about Like let's just skip that part and

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Speaker 1: get to what we all want. Like there's really bad

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Speaker 1: fan fiction, there's really good fan fiction, and I think

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Speaker 1: there's a place for all of it. But it does

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Speaker 1: some of it is like really telling, and like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is what a lot of us are craving or

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Speaker 1: don't find in a lot of the literature entertainment that

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Speaker 1: we have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually going to read another quote because

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Speaker 2: she had a different interview. In the interview, I feel

395
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 2: like are different for MPR and this specific one because

396
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: this one was for Centerfoffiction dot Org. Her answers are

397
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,719
Speaker 2: sound a lot more like her book, so the language

398
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Speaker 2: is different. But the interviewer will asked, you know, oh,

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Speaker 2: why does she bring fine fiction? Why in faine fiction

400
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 2: as a way to outlet to this character's desire, and

401
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: then whether it's interspersed or incorporated, and it's to a

402
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: different level of the way she needed to tell her story,

403
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: And so she replies with I'm intrigued by the words

404
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: interspersed and incorporated. They suggest that the fanfic can be

405
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: cleanly separated from the rest of the novel raisins in

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00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: a piece of bread. There's also the implication that the

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Speaker 2: fan fixed position is one of subordination, as if the

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00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 2: non fanfic parts constitute the main world of the novel

409
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 2: because the stakes there are higher and the events are

410
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: quote real, as if the fans fix is thusly quote fake,

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Speaker 2: a place where my narrator lets her imagination kareem beyond

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Speaker 2: the bounds of reason, a playroom for everything that doesn't

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00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 2: fit into her quote real life. I don't view her

414
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: thick in any of these ways. I can speak from

415
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: personal experience. My writing is not less real than me.

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00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: In fact, my writing is better at being me than

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Speaker 2: I am. So I thought that was interesting because she

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00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: wants to make sure you understand, as the reader, don't

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00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: get this wrong. The fanfic is not added. It is

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00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: the story, like she's like, it is as real as

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Speaker 2: the rest of the story.

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00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: So I thought that was.

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00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: An interesting quote, and beautifully and so another quote from

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00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: the book. I wasn't sure how to navigate a space

425
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: filled with strangers who knew I loved what they loved.

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Speaker 2: It was like going to the sauna, except our naked

427
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: bodies were identical, which made the embarrassment recursive and pointless.

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00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: And of course I think that's for a lot of

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Speaker 2: those as much as I don't know, I do know

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Speaker 2: being young and thinking I could be if we just met, Yeah,

431
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 2: he might see me like that whole moment and in

432
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: that understanding, when you're not by yourself loving something and

433
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: coming to a group, it feels like it lost this

434
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: loster a little bit.

435
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: Right for sure. And that's one of the things with

436
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: something like a Yan fan fiction is like, it's interesting

437
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: that it's not the writer. It's interesting that it's like

438
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: anyone's reading it, insert your name, But as the writer

439
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: in it's sort of like, this is a very strange

440
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 1: place to be where we're all experiencing this desire or

441
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: want or whatever it is, and it's I'm not unique,

442
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: I guess, but you keep trying to find ways to

443
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: tell yourself like, no, I'm unique, I'm unique. But I

444
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: also think it's funny for me as I've started posting

445
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: fan fiction. There's just a certain number of authors you

446
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: see a lot if you're in the same space, and

447
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: you start being like, oh, it's you, But then if

448
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: they don't comment, then you're like, oh, no, I've done something. No,

449
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: It's just funny, especially for me because I'm in such

450
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: a niche, smaller space that you just start to recognize

451
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: names and you're like, we must there's something about us

452
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: that if we met in real life, either we'd hate

453
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: each other and we really get along the hard to say.

454
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: Or best friends, yes, nemesis turn to best friends or yeah.

455
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: Oh popular fan fiction trup I know, I know, yes.

456
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: And this brings us to parasocial relationships, which we've done

457
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 1: an episode on. This is basically kind of the like

458
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: when you feel you have a relationship with someone you

459
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,239
Speaker 1: don't know, usually a celebrity, just because you experience their

460
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: life through social media or whatever entertainment, which we'll talk

461
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: about in a second kind of our experience with that,

462
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: but here's a quote. It had all started when she

463
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: stumbled upon a piece of y in fan fiction, which

464
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: she explained was a type of fan fiction where the

465
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: protagonist was called why in or your name. Wherever Yann

466
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,239
Speaker 1: appeared in the text, the reader could plug in their

467
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: own name, thereby sharing events with the celebrity they had

468
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: no chance of meeting in real life. Reading her first

469
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: Wyan story, Lee's had learned incredible things about herself. At nineteen,

470
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: she gave birth to Moon out of wedlock and was

471
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: forced by an aristocratic family to leave him at an orphanage.

472
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: He grew up to become a truck driver who specialized

473
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: in transporting prize horses. This was how she reunited with

474
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: her son, who strode up to the gates of her

475
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: estate with a chestnut mare rearing at his side. The

476
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: two recognized each other without exchanging a word. What commenced

477
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: was a dream like summer in which the pairent covered

478
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: great distances side by side. She on horseback Moon in

479
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: his truck. Only after finishing the story did these find

480
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: out about the pack of boys, their fame, how Moon

481
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: sang and danced alongside the others. But all of this

482
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: mattered little to her. Hungry to uncover new facets of herself,

483
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: she began to read one Whyan story after another. So

484
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting because sometimes, yes, people read

485
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: fan fiction of something they don't know anything about.

486
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 2: The con twist of the fact that the author looked

487
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: similar to Moon and the fact that this so this

488
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: was done at a convention that was like they had

489
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: what convention for the specific boy band, and they had

490
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: different people pretending to be the boys, and the main

491
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: character is asked to be Moon and walks around and

492
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: people are taking pictures and just like falling in love

493
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: with her as Moon, including Lise, who they already had

494
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: an interaction because they had been with the same.

495
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: Boy, Masterson.

496
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: And then now she's kind of falling in love with

497
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: the main character who also wrote one of the Yen

498
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: novels or wym fanfict that she started to read and

499
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: was falling in love with that character too.

500
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: Yes, I thought that was interesting because again I do

501
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: think a lot of times the Whyan part is about you.

502
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: So the fact that she looks like Moon, I think

503
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: was pretty pretty clear. Yeah, yes, here's another quote. The

504
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: engineer straightened out his back like a displeased patriarch. Whyan

505
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: Fick puts me to sleep, he said. In order to

506
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: accommodate the biography of every reader that might chance upon

507
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: the story, the writer creates a character void of personality.

508
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: But there can be no story without a proper protagonist.

509
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: So there is never a story when it comes to

510
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: why En, there are only absurd and arbitrary leaps and plot.

511
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: All of this amounts to a warning when I urge

512
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: you to heed. Anyone who pursues the delusional fantasy of

513
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: being Moon's chosen one can expect to have their identity

514
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: wiped out. This you gestured on our table, The event

515
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: is so much bigger than you. You are not Yn.

516
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: All of us are all at once, no, Lee said,

517
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: without blinking. Only I'm Yn. She recounted how, wanting to

518
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: know what it was like to be neighbors with Moon,

519
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: she started reading a story in which he lived in Berlin.

520
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: To her disturbance, he turned out to be just like

521
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: her ex They were both philosophers, and they had read

522
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: the same books, hung out at the same bars. They

523
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: even had the same birthmark on the inside of their

524
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: left thighs, and they both waved like a madman whenever

525
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: they saw her approaching from a distance. The Yn of

526
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: that story couldn't have been me, she said, because that

527
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: Yn was to me. The point is that I'm no

528
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: longer me. I'm y In. I've taken my destiny into

529
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 1: my own hands, and I've decided that I am now

530
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: a person who knows Moon. It appeared that Lise had

531
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: read my story on arc Image. I've been saying arc Mage,

532
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,239
Speaker 1: but it's arc Image. Sorry. I tried to meet her

533
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: eyes once more, but she kept her gaze on the engineer,

534
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: which I found admirably resilient given his look of intensifying disdain.

535
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: One person can't possibly be so many different people, he said.

536
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: You say you're hy In, but you're really no one

537
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: at all. You're the placeholder itself, a vacancyat waiting to

538
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: be filled exactly, Lee said, with a dreamy smile. Moon

539
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: is a feat of singularity. There has never been anyone

540
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: like him, and there never will be. He is too specific,

541
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: too unusual. I must try my hand at being everyone

542
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: if I am to coincide with him. He stays in

543
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: one place, I room endlessly. You can go listen to

544
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: the episodes we did on Mary Sue. But that is

545
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: a similar thing where people often say she is a

546
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: placeholder for the author. She is bland, perhaps so that

547
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: anyone can be her. But I feel like a lot

548
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: of people bring what they think you do kind of

549
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: make it your own, I guess, because it is a

550
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: placeholder thing, you can be like, well, she's like me

551
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: in this way, in this way, in this way. So

552
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: it's interesting to read this exchange where he's like everybody's

553
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: why in which is true, but she's like, no, only me.

554
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: But what I feel like she's saying is when you

555
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: take that position, it does become something kind of unique

556
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: to you because you're you're filling all this blankness with

557
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: yourself and your personality. I don't know, it's kind of

558
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: hard to describe, but yeah, I think both are like I

559
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: both are good points.

560
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: I think to that level of what she's seeing herself

561
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: is not herself.

562
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: And what she wants to be. Yes.

563
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: So that's why alone said when she said that's too me,

564
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: because she knew that relationship because it was based on

565
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: this one dude, right, interspersed with this one in being Masterson,

566
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: who we talked about earlier, interspersed with Moon because that's

567
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: how the author or the narrator wrote. It was based

568
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: on him, which is also why she becomes obsessed with

569
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: him later because she's kind of somehow transferred what she

570
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: has seen Moon as to him Masterson. And then also, yeah,

571
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: interspersed to the two of them. But yeah, like having

572
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: that saying that this is to me, so that wasn't me.

573
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: I can't be that because that's not where I want

574
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: to be essentially.

575
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean. And I say, we're going

576
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: to talk about that a little bit more later because

577
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: I think that's another misunderstanding people have. But sometimes it's like, yeah,

578
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: it's a self imagined fulfillment, like I wish I would

579
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: be this person. Yeah, but if you were ever confronted

580
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: with the reality of it, you don't want it. It's

581
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: just like imagining. It's like, Okay, let me imagine this,

582
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: but in reality, no, thank you, no thank you.

583
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: And here's some more quotes from the book. Somehow I'd

584
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: never imagined Moon as an infant I'd also never imagined

585
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: him dying. He seemed to have come into the world

586
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: already complete, and I expect him to disappear in the

587
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: same way, which honestly could say something about K pop

588
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 2: fandom in general, especially when we talk about young deaths

589
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: and tragic deaths or whatnot. When they kind of disappear.

590
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: They kind of disappear when they fade out of the limelight.

591
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: Not many people think about it anymore, and they do

592
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: just disappear. You don't think about their past too much

593
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: because their present is what you look for and what

594
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: you fell in love with, and then when the time

595
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 2: dies out and if you get in a new interest, yeah,

596
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: they disappear.

597
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: M hm. Yeah. And I think it's true that it's

598
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: like the idea of to me, it's speaking to this

599
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: sort of celebrity culture we don't view sometimes we forget

600
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: celebrities are human, and so you don't purse he's never

601
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: a baby. Of course, he was never gonna die. He's

602
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: not human. You don't kind of give them that space

603
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: or think about that space, because that would interrogate like, well,

604
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: what are we participating in then? Well what is he

605
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: going through?

606
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: Then?

607
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: Like as a human person.

608
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 2: Exactly m M. And then this quote is from when

609
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: they make an announcement that Moon is retiring and oh

610
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: dear no details followed the news of Moon's retirement, the

611
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: other boys retreated from public view and then definitely suspended

612
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: the release of their next album online. The turmoil was Titanic?

613
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,479
Speaker 2: Had Moon quit of his own free will? Was he dead?

614
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: Had he relocated to the moon? Surrendering himself to scientific

615
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: progress and betrothing himself to a metaphor? I really like,

616
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: that's just kind of again, there was a lot of

617
00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: this in the book where the surreal conversation was bigger

618
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: than it needed to be. And at one point there's

619
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 2: a line in which he says he is my gasoline.

620
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: So it was such an odd lie that I was like,

621
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: it took me out of the book completely, that I

622
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: was like that was was that a mistranslation or was

623
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: that just purposely blown to be so flowery that it

624
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: did the opposite of like, instead of engaging me, made

625
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: me think, what just happened? Did she mean to say that?

626
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 2: I know writing is hard, and definitely this book is

627
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: definitely that intensive level of like making sure you're kind

628
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: of spinning around the words rather than just laying on

629
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: them is a way that sounded like a flowery description

630
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: in itself, but that's the way I can say I

631
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: can think of it.

632
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: I think it's also though, like it's supposed to be

633
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: the drama of when you're a fan of something.

634
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: Perhaps where everything felts inclement and die.

635
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: Saying feels so big, everything feels.

636
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 2: Meaning of everything, and then not just a single word.

637
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: You can't be abrupt. You must make the descriptor so

638
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: long that you forget what you were originally talking about.

639
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: Oh, like the God, I wish I hadn't burned my

640
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: fan fiction. I would read you guys, you would laugh

641
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: so hard. But I would write like this like it

642
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: was life or death or whether we could meet each other,

643
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: like it was so important to me.

644
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, was this about Keanu.

645
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: No, if we really come back and do this, I

646
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: was gonna go into my because I've had three I

647
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: would say that we're pretty big Keanu Reeves. I like,

648
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: I don't think I ever engaged in the actual fanfic

649
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: part of it, or even in my head because a

650
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: lot of times I didn't write it necessarily. But Billy Billy,

651
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: Joe Armstrong, Daniel Radcliffe Ryan Gosling kinda nut.

652
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 2: I'm too young, I guess, yeah, you're quite formal like

653
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 2: form to say those flowery words For Ryan Goslin.

654
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: I him a letter that was dotted in hearts. Though. Yes,

655
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: I'm actually got to talk about this in a second,

656
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: but I want to read this quote first. It's fine

657
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: if I never meet him, I said, staring at the ceiling.

658
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: I just like the feeling of us moving through time together.

659
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: I need him there. I need to know that, at

660
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 1: this very moment he's looking down at his hands. Somewhere

661
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: in the world. It's possible that I might have figured

662
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: him out all wrong, that my imagination has turned him

663
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: into an absurdd caricature. Even then, I need to know

664
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: that I'm doing all of this fallacious work in reaction

665
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: to something that's real. You don't need him back, you

666
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: don't even need him alive. Just pretend he's the main

667
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: character of your favorite movie. And now this movie's over.

668
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: So again, this is like when her and Master Center

669
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: a kind of having this big falling out fight, this

670
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: whole thing. But it did remind me. I think I've

671
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: told this story before. I will go into it. In

672
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: our magazine episode. I had a huge crush on Ryan

673
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: Gosling as young Hercules Samtha knows. I finally secured the DVG.

674
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: I'm very very excited. I'm sure it won't hold up

675
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be great. But I had a really

676
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: huge crush on him, to an embarrassing point that everyone

677
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: knew it when I was like nine years old, like

678
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: all not even friends, like everyone knew it. And I

679
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: had a moment when I think it was nine or ten.

680
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: My mom found me crying and she was like, what's wrong,

681
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: And I said, I've just realized I'm never going to

682
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: be with Ryan Gosling, And to her credit, she like

683
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: held me and did the laugh in my face. But

684
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: it was true, Like you had that moment of I

685
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: remember it sound so j now, but it's funny. I

686
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: remember thinking, well, he's like twice my age, he's really hot,

687
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: he's got a lot more going on than me, and

688
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: he pretty much lives in New Zealand. Like I was

689
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: taking it like seriously.

690
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: Oh, you were trying to calculate the possibilities.

691
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's embarrassing. I'm gonna blush thinking about it,

692
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: but I, oh, dear, I will talk about it. It's

693
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: pretty funny. But I did have that moment where I

694
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: kind of mourned, but then I moved on kind of

695
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: that like, you know, the movie's over, which is interesting

696
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: because after that I never really I did move on.

697
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: I never came back to her and Gossling, but I

698
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: did want to put in here because sometimes some of

699
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: you listeners write in and you'll talk about parasocial relationships

700
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: or how you feel like, you know, as not in

701
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: a creepy way, I'll say, but you know, just kind

702
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: of like, hey, yeah, I feel like anyway. And I

703
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: think I think that makes sense, especially with a podcast

704
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: like ours, because I was thinking about this, like a

705
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff you get with celebrities is pretty

706
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: like polished, like pr managed interviews, but with us, you know,

707
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: we're kind of just talking about our lives. And I

708
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: experienced that as an editor, where I would feel like

709
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: I just knew someone so so much and they didn't

710
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: have any idea who I was, and it's just it

711
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: is sort of strange, but it is a part of

712
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: our media landscape. But I think it's different than this

713
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: because yeah, yeah, because I do think there's a difference

714
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: between like a celebrity where they like almost have scripts

715
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 1: of what to say, so you never really know them.

716
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 1: I mean, it's true, like you don't really know us either,

717
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: but I feel like we're much more kind of ourselves

718
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: versus I feel like celebrities are much more like a

719
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: image of themselves.

720
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: Right well, also with K pop, they are created by

721
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 2: the agency, their personality, their level of fashion, their face,

722
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: their style. They are created to be a specific image

723
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: to fulfill a specific idea and typically a specific role

724
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: in that group. I think it's changed since the beginning

725
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: of that, like I know, more recently, people and maybe

726
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 2: this is the fandom being like, no, that's not true.

727
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, but like it seems like people with

728
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 2: the fact that their social media in existence now that

729
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: they can't quite get away with as much pristine like

730
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 2: cleanups as they did once upon a time, because truth

731
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: will eventually come out. But at the same time, yeah,

732
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: for the most part, and especially with K pop, they

733
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: are they have a lot of morality stuff that are

734
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: in place by the agencies that if you, you know,

735
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 2: are caught with cigarettes, you might get kicked out of

736
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: the band. If you're caught with a girlfriend, you might

737
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: be or a boyfriend you might be kicked out of

738
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: the vand uh, in fidelity, any of those things. They're like,

739
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: you're gone. So a lot of this from a start,

740
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: contrast from us just talking with our bosses, sometimes not

741
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 2: knowing that we exist.

742
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's another quote, kind of about that you've settled

743
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: for a comfortable distance from him so that you can

744
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: yearn without suffering. Sorry, but you're not in love. You're

745
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: a fan, boring, lethargic, overfed. If you really loved him,

746
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: you'd be in soul right now. You'd be walking the

747
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: streets day and night in search of him. The magnitude

748
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: of the task would crush you until you became a

749
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: ball of pulp containing gesture, heart all other organs, crushed

750
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: into dysfunction.

751
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: It's a weird stamon to be said by a psychologist,

752
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: by the way, like challenging, dare you?

753
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

754
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I was like, who would do this?

755
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, but I thought that was interesting because it is.

756
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: I do think that point of like you're a fan,

757
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: and that like lying about being overfed, like you're getting

758
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: so much stuff as a fan, was important, and this

759
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: kind of like point of the safety of loving something

760
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: or someone you cannot have I've read she's talked about

761
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: that in interviews, and I do think that's true for

762
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people, Like I was saying, when you

763
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: write a self insert, like you don't really want it,

764
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: but it's kind of fun to imagine. I think it's

765
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of people aren't even if

766
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: in the back of your head you're like, oh, if

767
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: we met, I know, but you're also kind of like,

768
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do the for it. I will just

769
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: write this.

770
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: Thing, try to reach out to him or anything. I'll

771
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: see his movie and story.

772
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: I'll write him a letter that I later hope was

773
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: destroyed before you could read it. So then, yes, after

774
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: this sort of like ultimatum, she decides to go to soul.

775
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: The narrator decides to go to soul, and the conversation continues,

776
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: you would really do that. His tone was not of gratitude,

777
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: but of intense hurt. Don't you understand that he went

778
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: away because he wanted to. Perhaps that's what troubles me most,

779
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: that even he could no longer endure it. Yes, the

780
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: pressure is so intense. And then you have kind of

781
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: what we've been discussing throughout is sort of this construction

782
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: of an avatar that you feel ownership over or entitlement to,

783
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: Like I really think a lot of celebrity culture is

784
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: you're going after somebody who doesn't exist. It's the creation

785
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: of them in your mind and on social media and

786
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: entertainment you want, but not the real person.

787
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 2: Right again, when we look about and we talked about

788
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: this previously a little bit about the fact that she

789
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: chose KP pop for a reason, but like K pop

790
00:45:53,480 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 2: is the epitome of creating someone for the fan they

791
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: like in the level of ownership given to fandoms is

792
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 2: incredibly almost dangerous, which is why things have like been

793
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 2: People are like, maybe you need to back off, or

794
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: maybe there needs to be lost to protect celebrities as well,

795
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: even though you would think they would be protected but

796
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: not in South Korea. But yeah, there's this level of

797
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: the whole they were catered and created in hopes that

798
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 2: the fandom would take them all. You have biases in

799
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: this type of conversation that doesn't really exist in any

800
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 2: other kind of celebrity culture outside of K pop, because

801
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 2: they want it to be that level. They want you

802
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: to own things that their faces on, kind of like

803
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: her cosmetic set or her skin of routine that she

804
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: talks about throughout the book as well, that because she

805
00:46:49,080 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: wants to look more like them. Next quote, it says,

806
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: to my pleasure. He picked up the notebook and began

807
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 2: to read aloud. And this is where she finds him,

808
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: and Moon is starting to read her fan fiction. I

809
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 2: relished the gaminess of his accent. It sounded impossible to fix,

810
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 2: he paused when he came across the word why. N

811
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: He tried to pronounce it as yen, but immediately reconsidered,

812
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 2: settling with why in each time he uttered the abbreviation.

813
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: I increasingly understood myself in the sound, the breath, the

814
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: insubstantiality of why, which was pulled down the throat by

815
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: the density of en. He seemed to be asking why

816
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 2: of my existence? Why I was what I was.

817
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is she does get to meet.

818
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: Moon, which I was trying to figure out if this

819
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: was real.

820
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: It's definitely meant to made you question it, but I

821
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: think it was real. I think some of it wasn't,

822
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: but I think it was. But also I think that

823
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: she did the thing she of the self insert fan fiction.

824
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: You meet the person and then she's like, no, this

825
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: isn't real, this isn't right. This isn't because it's not

826
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: the person she's created. So here's a quote from her.

827
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: I'm not a stranger. You know me. All of your videos, pictures,

828
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: messages they were for me. Don't make that face. It's true.

829
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: You couldn't have known it at the time since you

830
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: didn't know who I was, but you didn't need to.

831
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: Our connection preceded us. I have spent my entire life

832
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: training myself to feel the feelings I have for you.

833
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: My perception has been perfectly notched to match the gear

834
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: of your personality. Don't think I haven't heard this all before.

835
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: He said, yes, And I think that's interesting in terms

836
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: of like cause she does. She kind of gets mad

837
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: and was like, oh, it's not you. It's not you

838
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: who I thought you would be, right, and then she

839
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: sort of was Okay, well, I'll go back to my

840
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: real moon, which is the one in her fan fiction.

841
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: But that idea of like, okay, this is all for me.

842
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: Like this, you are specifically speaking to me. I am

843
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: the unique one. I am the yn that matters. I

844
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: think that's also fascinating in terms of how celebrities are

845
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: pressured into like social media, and it's meant to make

846
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 1: you feel that way. We've talked about that in terms

847
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: of like a lot of the songs, those like popular

848
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: romantic songs are meant to make you feel they're singing

849
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: to you. That is what the whole point is, to

850
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of have that idea of like, well, to take

851
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: that and to seriously be like, Okay, you don't know

852
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: who I am, but it was me all alone.

853
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: Right, That's an interesting thing. She actually talks about parasocial

854
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: relationships and how she does not like it in this context.

855
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna read it real quick from those Say

856
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: You interview or the Center for Fiction. It says, I've

857
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: seen the word parasocial used to describe my narrator's relationship

858
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: with Moon. I dislike that word because it pretends to

859
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: clarify when it actually obscures. And if the implication of

860
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: parasocial is that my narrator knows Moon falsely through image,

861
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: through what he represents, then what he really is, then

862
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: it seems to me that all relationships are parasocial, especially

863
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: so called love relationships. Have I ever really known anyone,

864
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: including myself, I'm pretty sure I have a parasocial relationship

865
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: with myself. In any case, parasociality is precisely what my

866
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 2: narrator is trying to escape.

867
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: Interesting. It wants to know like a real thing.

868
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 2: But at the same time she's disappointed by the real

869
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 2: thing was in her head, which is parasocial. This author

870
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: is interesting. I like our takes going.

871
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I have another quote. This one is from

872
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: the NPR article. I don't see the novel as a

873
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: cautionary tale against anything, to be honest, It's simply documenting

874
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: this one individual's attempt to perhaps experience something beyond the

875
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: boundaries of her given conditions, beyond the boundaries of her

876
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 1: human consciousness, which, of course, for any person is an

877
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: extremely dangerous thing to embark upon. Either you are sent

878
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: over to the other side and possibly you never come

879
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: back to reality, you never survive it to tell the story,

880
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 1: or you come back and you're probably a little bit destroyed,

881
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: to put it mildly. Yeah, I think the narrator is

882
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: certainly skirting some kind of boundary, testing some kind of

883
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: boundary between reality and fantasy. And she does have a

884
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: lot of quotes about mass consumption, how we consume media

885
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: currently as mass consumption, and how we interact and enjoy

886
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: art in our modern times and how that can lead

887
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: to blurring of these lines. And so at the end, Yes,

888
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: there is this whole thing where the narrator comes back,

889
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 1: meets back with Oh, Oh has this documentary like short

890
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: film that has painting in it of the narrator, and

891
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: the narrator keep asking to see the painting, like I

892
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: want to see the real thing, and Oh is like

893
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: you're missing the point, Like if you want that, then

894
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can. So it's sort of

895
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: that idea. She's always the narrator is always trying to

896
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 1: find this quote real thing, but it's never happy with it.

897
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: It is never satisfied with it, doesn't believe it, which

898
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: I think is interesting. There's also a quote from that

899
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: NPR article about there is something in her that is

900
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: in all of us, and that's about the being anonymous

901
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: online like the net. We never have the name. And

902
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: I did try the the y N thing in this book,

903
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: which is where you put your name in evershabby Cyan,

904
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: and it was unsettling, which I believe was the intent.

905
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would not like that because none of Yeah

906
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 2: again I already thought this book was like definitely out

907
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 2: of my style, So like that would have made me

908
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 2: real uncomfortable. But like this, this is not my This

909
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 2: is not a thing that I would Yeah, this is

910
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 2: not one thing I would have picked up by myself.

911
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: I it was interesting. I've never done that, I don't think,

912
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 1: because again, it's not I don't want to be in it.

913
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: I just want no not me, which I think is

914
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: a whole other thing. But I tried it. It was okay. Yeah,

915
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: it made me feel a certain way.

916
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it made me well, it made me like I

917
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: was just like huh again, Like there's just moments of

918
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 2: like trying to figure it out and trying to be

919
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: like I don't know if I feel sad for this person,

920
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 2: for the narrator because she's going to be unhappy, or

921
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: if I'm just concerned for the narrator because there's some

922
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: red flags. Obviously I was gonna write read this because

923
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty on point with ye. But she

924
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 2: says about the writing of the book, all I learned

925
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 2: from why In is how to write why In. I

926
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 2: don't seem to have learned how to write novels in general.

927
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: I could never write something like why In. Again, my

928
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: thinking has changed too much. I wrote most of why

929
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 2: In on the pure benzene of instinct, almost blithely and desperately,

930
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: which not paradoxically made me very fastidious. At the microscopic

931
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: level of the text, I suspect that whatever I write

932
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: next will be the reverse. It'll have to account for

933
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 2: the quote relaxed ruthlessness that has come to dominate my

934
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 2: style of thinking since why.

935
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: In yeah, I mean it's it was interesting to you

936
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: because like that sounds like writing fan fiction to me,

937
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: that is what you just have to write it. You

938
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: just get in this mind space, So that makes sense.

939
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: Here's another one last quote from you. I always imagine

940
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: Moon almost as a knife kind of a violent figure.

941
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: I don't mean that in a wilful way, but that

942
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: he seems to be exposing some kind of wound or

943
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: void in these characters' lives. And it's both offering for

944
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: film but also exposing that void. And I think the

945
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: exposure of that void can be full of potential for

946
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: an individual who's experiencing that, but it can also be

947
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: a moment of great Of course, it's leaving open a

948
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: lot of possibility for disappointment, for lack of fulfillment, right, Yeah,

949
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: that void, mm hmm, it's true.

950
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we didn't talk about the part where

951
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: it's implied that he's what brought the group together and

952
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 2: without without him, they all fell apart and filmed like

953
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: they lost a part of themselves. So they were trying

954
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 2: to find the new moon with the new with the fans,

955
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 2: it seemed when they all want to go meet them. Yeah, yeah, again,

956
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 2: I didn't know if that was a fanfic portion on

957
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: the real book.

958
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: I think that was real. But it's also like it's

959
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: true the I don't know, it's it's the in fandom,

960
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: it can be so strange because you can feel something

961
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: so strongly and then if it goes away you it's

962
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: almost like scary where you're like, well, what's what I

963
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: could never ever give up on this person I love

964
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: so much? And then years later I'm like Ryan Gosling,

965
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 1: like it's a bizarre were you kind of like if

966
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: you feel you would never ever it would be a

967
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:35,479
Speaker 1: betrayal to like let them go, and then you find

968
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: something else do. Yeah, but it is a it's a

969
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: part of fandom that you've heard me talk about it,

970
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: like one day I won't want to dress is this anymore?

971
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: And it's like such a silly thing.

972
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, well there you go.

973
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: Yes, there you go. It's a short read. It is

974
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: very intense.

975
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: There's a lot to unfold. There might be some rereading.

976
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 2: It needs to happen.

977
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,439
Speaker 1: I had to reread the end because I was like, wait,

978
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: hold on.

979
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: It does again. It makes me a little sad more

980
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 2: than anything else, I will say. And I'm not sure

981
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 2: if that was her point to that, but yeah.

982
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's to me, it's mostly about like loneliness, unfulfillment. Yeah, yep,

983
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: and not being able to find that. So well, we've

984
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: come out strong in twenty twenty four. As always, if

985
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: you have any suggestions listeners, we would love to hear

986
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: from you. You can email us at Stephanie and moms

987
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on

988
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok

989
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: at stuff. I never told you. We have a tea

990
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: public store, and we also have a book you can

991
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: get wherever you get your books. I talked about Mary

992
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: Sue in there. Lots of ampiction stuff. Thanks as always

993
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: to our super producer Christine, our exective producer Maya, and

994
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: our contruder Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening.

995
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: Stephane Never Told You is production of iHeart Radio. For

996
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: more podcast from my heart Radio, you can check out

997
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998
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