WEBVTT - Week in Tech: Are You There God? It’s Me, AI 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.600 Thanks for tunion to techt Stuff. If you don't recognize 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.720 my voice, my name is Ozvoloshan, and I'm here because 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.840 the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to Kara 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.959 Price and myself to host tech Stuff. The show will 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.720 remain your home for all things tech, and all the 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.480 old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks for listening. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.080 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:31.520 I'm Osvoloshan. Today will bring you the headlines, including supersonic planes, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.680 a conversation with four or four Media's Joseph Cox about 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.239 the aftermath of quote the largest sting operation ever on 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.279 Today's Tech Support. Then we're back with another When did 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.760 this become a thing? This time we're looking into Google's 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.280 new assistant Gemini. All of that on the Weekend Tech. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:53.960 It's Friday, February seventh, So this week I'm hosting solo again. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.480 Kara Price is out for a few weeks, but our 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.560 producer Eliza Dennis is here to help me through the headlines. Eliza, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:00.200 welcome back. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:01.680 Thanks, happy to be here. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.680 We've got an exciting potpourri. We've got planes, fridges, and 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:06.840 Roman Catholicism. 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.080 This list is giving me jeopardy vibes. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.000 Let's start with fridges, but we're going to do all three. 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.440 But we'll start with fridges. These aren't ordinary fridges. They're 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.480 smart fridges. And I read a story in Bloomberg by 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:24.480 Austin Carr under the headline Walgreens replaced fridge doors with 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.280 smart screens. It's now a two hundred million dollar fiasco. 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.880 It all started a few years ago when Walgreens began 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.120 installing smart refrigerators in some of their stores. 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.440 I don't think I ever saw one of these in 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.920 the many, many Wilgreens I've been in. How about you, os. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.120 I haven't actually seen them in person either, but the 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.000 Bloomberg article was very well written and visually described. Most 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.960 of these fridges are actually in Chicago, and they're not 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.720 really smart fridges, they're actually smart doors. Picture a door 0:01:55.880 --> 0:02:00.360 size computer screen, and the screen mimics exactly what you'd 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.320 see through at last door into the space, so basically 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.520 rows of gatorade or energy drinks. But instead of the 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.040 actual product, you're now looking at a digital image of 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.880 the product that's inside the fridge. And that means digital prices, 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:15.280 no more sticker price tags. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.680 Okay, so is this just trying to make sure that 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.280 employees don't have to walk around with those guns and 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.359 re stick prices every time there's a sale. 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.280 Probably a bit of that. And also dynamic pricing, so 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:29.040 the ability to change in real time. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.440 Kara talked about this a few weeks ago, This dynamic 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.799 pricing where prices can fluctuate at a moment's notice. And 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.919 it's also a side effect of the smart shopping carts 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.000 that she talked about, you know, those being piloted by Instacart. 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.640 Yes, the screens, both on the caper cuts and on 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.679 these fridges can do smart pricing, but they also play ads, 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:53.440 and per Bloomberg, this is called quote unquote retail media advertising, 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.560 which is a gold rush right now. So you know, 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.120 the fridges are interesting, but there's a legal aspect here too. 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.440 So Walgreens signed a ten year contract with the startup 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.320 behind the screens, Cooler Screens, Inc. After an early pilot 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.080 showed that the screens could boost sales about to five percent. However, 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:15.000 early gains turned into a month's long contentious legal slog. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.080 Here's the overview. So Walgreens installed ten thousand smart doors 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.880 and planned to install thirty five thousand more, but back 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.239 in twenty twenty three, things started to go a little wrong. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.400 The screens started advertising the wrong items, They flickered, they 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.800 went blank, some even called on fire. Yeah, and they 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:40.520 weren't popular with the higher ups at Walgreens. According to Bloomberg, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.080 the CEO of Walgreens at the time asked her team, 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:49.120 why do our stores look like an effing casino? And 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.200 not only that, maybe a casino would have been tolerable 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.640 if it also boosted sales hugely, but Walgreens claimed there 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:56.600 was practically no boost in sales. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.160 Okay, so ugly and ineffective, you know, that's that's the take. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.400 And so Walgreens had enough and started this legal process 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.160 to try and get out of the contract. Early Cooler 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.680 Screens didn't like this, and back in June twenty three, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.880 they sued Walgreens for a breach of contract. Walgreens then 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:14.760 counter sued for monetary damages. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:15.160 This is the. 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:22.320 Baldoni Lively of smart fridges. But Cooler Screens then found 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.800 another way to fight back. According to Bloomberg, they secretly 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.640 cut the data fees to these smart screen doors. In 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.080 over one hundred Walgreens locations in Chicago. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.200 How did that affect Walgreens? 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.440 So, I mean these stores had dozens of doors that 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.840 look kind of glazed over, and customers obviously couldn't see 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:44.360 what was inside anymore, so employees had to physically and 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.839 valiantly but vaguely describe what was behind each door, like 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.600 there would be hand pasted signs saying assorted sports, drinks 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:56.119 and coffee. This went on for about a week until 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.080 Walgreens got a judge to issue a temporary restraining order 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.080 against Cooler Screen, and this forced the company to restore 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.360 the data feeds. So Walgreen's got their unwanted smart doors back, 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.040 but the screens were still not performing as hoped, so 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.160 Walgreens started physically removing them in early twenty twenty four, 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.680 and uninstallation was completed in August last year. 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.400 What's your takeaway as well? 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.520 You know, it's always these tech fails are always amusing. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.000 There was a great little side in the Bloomberg article 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.760 about a Reddit post which went viral showing a customer 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.280 joking if only there was some other technology that would 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:36.800 let us see what's inside there lah exactly. So for me, 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:38.880 the takeaway here is that, you know, the latest consumer 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.200 technology can be exciting, specific can boost sales for corporations, 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.839 exciting for corporations, But sometimes the best tech is centuries old, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.679 and in this case, the good old last display case 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:51.039 still does the job. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.600 Okay, I love that story. Let's hear about planes. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.640 Yeah, so this one was. I heard about this last 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.000 week and I personally spend way too much time on play, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.640 so I was very intrigued to read about a team 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.000 who've just had a breakthrough in potentially making flying much 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:06.799 much faster. 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:08.720 How fast are we talking? 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.880 Well, take flying from San Francisco to Tokyo usually an 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.360 eleven hour flight. What if I told you there was 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.480 a way to make that flight only six hours. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.600 I mean, I still wouldn't be able to afford it, 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.760 but I would want to go all the time. Fair. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.880 So this is an aviation startup called Boom, and what 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.760 they're trying to do is to create a modern commercial 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.960 supersonic flight, as in a plane that flies so fast 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.600 it breaks a sound barrier quote, displacing sound waves so 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.960 quickly that they can press into a single thunderous lap, 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.600 forming the so called sonic boom. That's the name Boom. 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.640 And this is according to an article this week in 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.320 the San Francisco Standard. 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.599 So how far are we from Boom? Kind of like 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:56.440 you know, taking me to London. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.960 Well, Boom had its first successful test flight that broke 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.520 the sound barrier just last week, flying high over California's 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.160 Mojave Desert. This XB one prototype broke the sound barrier. 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:10.800 But to be clear, the XP one is just a prototype, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.680 and it is a scale model. In fact, it's a 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.760 single seater, whereas the planned aircraft called the Overture, which 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.120 has yet to be built, is going to be eighty seats. Now, 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.960 of course, military jets break the sound barrier all day, 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.520 every day, and this isn't that new in this sense, 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:30.160 has a history of supersonic passenger aircrafts in commercial use. 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.400 So this is the Concord as. 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.640 The Concord exactly, and I think one of the most 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.440 iconic planes in history. The Concord was first put into 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.520 flight in the sixties. It was a supersonic jet that 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.840 shuttler likes of Michael Jackson, Phil Collins, Paul McCartney, the 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.400 Pope and even the Queen back and forth across the Atlantic. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.320 But per the San Francisco Standard, it costs twenty thousand 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.840 dollars per round trip adjusted for inflation, So yeah, not 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:01.480 for us. They're also environmental concerns. I think it consumed 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.559 I read, four times as much fuel as a seven 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.520 four seven and carried only a quarter of the people, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.520 So that's sixteen times less efficient for any mental math nerds, 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.040 they would be able to get much quicker than me. 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.160 And then there are also some crashes and fires. Okay, 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:19.480 so all of this meant that the Concord flew its 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:21.800 last flight more than twenty years ago, in two thousand 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.920 and three. But now there's Overture gunning to take its place. 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.560 And what they're trying to do over at Boom is 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.280 to build a supersonic plane that would be accessible to 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.880 regular people. And they're trying to do this by using 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.199 modern tech that will cost less than the concords of 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.880 yester year, and also using more sustainable fuel. So this, 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.800 perhaps unsurprisingly, has caught the eye of Silicon Valley luminaries, 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.520 people like Sam Altman, Read Hoffmann, Mike Morritz have all invested, 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.360 and if things go to plan, Boom says that Overture 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.440 could begin commercial flights in five years. 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.679 Oh wow, okay, how is that going to happen? 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.400 Well, they're not going to operate the planes themselves. They're 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.920 doing deals with the airline industry, and according to the standard, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.920 they've actually made deals with three airlines, including American Airlines, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.280 who have put down a nonrefundable deposit on twenty overtures, 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.960 which is I guess a bold move given that one 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.240 hasn't been built yet. Yes, and of course there's a 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.040 big question about the boom, with the clue being in 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.160 the name flying over Land, whether or not that will 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:22.640 be allowed. 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:27.400 Yeah, I'm not ready for that. Sound. Let's move on 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.720 to the next thing. You already mentioned the Pope, but 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:31.960 you have something else to tell me. 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.679 Yes, So it was actually John Paul the Second May 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.040 He Rest in Peace, who was the Concord passenger, but 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.560 actually said, this story is about the current Pope Francis. 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.120 It's not my all time favorite papal Ai story. Do 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.560 you remember the deep fake Pope Eliza. 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:50.040 In the Yes, absolutely wearing the. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:54.040 Coat, wearing the white Montclair puffer jacket in the mountains, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:55.120 the papal puffer. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:56.200 What a fashion easter. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:58.679 But this is a more serious one because right now 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.120 it seems like there's a throwdown brewing between God and 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.720 God in the Machine Akai. Pote Francis has raised concerns 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.800 previously about the ethical and moral implications of AI and 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.040 its effect on relationships and education, and warfare and work. 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.400 According to a story in The New York Times with 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:20.400 the fabulous headline citing shadow of Evil, Vatican warns about 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.800 the risks of AI. Those statements have now been synthesized 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.960 into a document called Antiqua et Nova Ancient and New, 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.160 and it's meant to warn those of the Catholic Faith 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.040 that AI is both a source of tremendous opportunities but 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:36.200 also profound risks. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.280 Okay, so kind of threading the needle there, What else 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:40.280 did it say? Yeah? 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.160 I mean, the paper pointed out that there is potential 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.960 for misinformation, eroded trust, harm in the social development of children, 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.679 the replacement of human work, and the development of autonomous weapons, 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.600 all of which, you know, franklier themes of this show. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.640 But the Papal warning tried to bring into focus what 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.679 it means to be human and the ethical considerations we 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.320 should bear in mind when using AI. For example, the 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.840 document says, quote in all areas where humans are called 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.440 to make decisions, the shadow of evil also looms here. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.080 So what this kind of says to me is that 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.360 the paper is as much about how we choose to 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.920 use AI than about AI itself. And you know what's 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.960 interesting was the Vatican of your you know, may have 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.480 tried to ban this, like the Catholic Church banning the 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.640 printing press and burning the people who try to print stuff. Happily, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.200 five hundred years later we've you know, the Church has 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.800 moved on and they're not trying to say, you know, 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.600 don't use AI. They're trying to say, think about what 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.160 makes you human when you're using this. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.600 Yeah, it's actually a really nice reminder that we can 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:46.840 all decide how we want to move through the world 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.480 and also how we interact with both human and machine. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.760 I think that's well put. Well, thanks for joining me, Eliza. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.320 I'm missing Cara, but I'm enjoying chatting to you each week. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:57.240 That's my pleasure. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:03.960 Us Coming up, we hear from our friends at four 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.760 or four Media about a plea deal in one of 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.640 the largest sting operations ever. That's next on tech support. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:20.000 Stay with us today for our tech support segment, We're 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.520 turning to four or four Media's Joseph Cox to discuss 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.320 a story he's been reporting on for years. It's about 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.200 a sting operation with ripple effects throughout some of the 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:35.160 biggest criminal organizations globally, and a raid made possible by 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.240 the tech that we just can't live without our phones. 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.559 But this isn't about your iPhone, Pixel or Galaxy. It's 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.480 about encrypted phones. Joseph wrote a book called Dark Wire 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.839 about the Encrypted Device Company a NOM, it's unique relationship 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.920 with the FBI, and the biggest criminal raid in recorded history. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.040 And now some of the people arrested in that sting 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.800 operation are pleading guilty, which calls into question if there'll 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.199 be a trial. Joseph is great to see. 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:05.280 You, Thanks for having me. 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.000 So if you don't mind, let's start at the beginning. 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:09.199 What is a non. 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.040 Yes, So, a NOOM was part of the encryptis phone industry. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.640 And as you say, it's not like the normal apply 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.320 I phones or Google androids that we all use. These 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.880 are very special phones that have sometimes a microphone removed, 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.320 the camera taken out, sometimes even the GPS removed, because 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.719 basically they're marketed to serious drug traffickers and criminals. 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.960 And do they look like old you know, like plip 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.800 phones or nockia old phones, or what's the physical appearance 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:37.520 of these phones. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.680 Yeah, that's the funny thing. They do look like ordinary phones. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.480 Back in the day when there was a company called 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.160 Phantom Secure that was a sort of BlackBerry with a 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:51.080 quirity keyboard. Nowadays they will look like a Google Pixel, 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.280 but they will operate very differently. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.600 And a non was basically a handset manufacturer. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.000 It's hard to describe. It was almost like a software developer, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:05.760 a tech startup, a hackefon as well. But basically what 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.600 they would do is that they would make their own software, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.240 which is sending encrypto messages, wiping data from the phone, 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.480 redacting parts of photos you may take and send across 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:20.000 the device, and then installing that onto Android's phones. So 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.400 they're almost like an operating system developer and app developer 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:25.960 as well. But I would say it's mostly on the 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:26.720 software side. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.720 And you mentioned that these were very popular with criminals. 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.480 These are non phones. What was the advantage of them? 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:33.760 Why did you want these phones? 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:38.040 So criminals are of course always trying to stay one 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.680 step ahead of law enforcement. Back in the day, that 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.080 would have been something like the TV series The Wire 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.160 right where they're using payphones or they're using pages, but 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.320 of course cops got wind of that, so then criminals 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.440 turned to encryption, And to me, it's the biggest technological 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.520 leapf criminals since the inventure of the mobile phone. If 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.120 you are a serious criminal, you're only going to be 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.440 taken seriously if you have one of these phones. It's 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.120 almost essential to be a cocaine or a heroine or 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:07.680 a methamphetamine trafficka today. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.920 Wow, obviously it's not just criminals who rely on encryption. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.960 We had Mariuth Whittaker on the podcast, and you know, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.440 she made the case for the benefits of encryption. 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.600 Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that's the important thing in 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.960 that encryption is beneficial to everybody. I use it every 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.880 single day. Ironically, I use Signal and other encrypted messaging 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.200 apps to talk to criminals who are using these encryptive 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.640 phones as well. It's a messy for the issue, but 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.320 I think we can all agree that, you know, there 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.360 is a net positive and overwhelming net positive for us 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.520 being able to use encryption. That being said, law enforcement 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.960 are not just going to sit by and let that happen. 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.280 They're going to think of new ways to sort of 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:51.680 penetrate the secret system. 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.040 So you mentioned that, you know, the old mafia techniques 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:59.640 of payphones and pages. Basically law enforcement got ahead of them. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.720 How did the FBI find out about a NOM? 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.280 So what happened first was the FBI shut down Phantom Secure, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.880 this other encryptive phone company very very popular with the 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.160 Similarer drug cartel, Australian bikers, that sort of thing, and 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.440 they wanted to get a backdoor into it which would 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.040 have allowed them to read all of the messages. That 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.720 didn't happen. But then what did basically fall into their 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.120 lap was that someone who was selling phones for Phantom 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.000 Secure and some other companies, they were making their own 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.000 next generation of encryptive phone called a NOOM, and they 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.400 offered it to the FBI, and they said, look, would 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.120 you like to take this and use it for your 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.480 own investigations. Of course, in return, I would like not 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.040 to be prosecuted. Ideally I would also like to get 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.880 some money for it. But I can't overstate how exciting 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.480 that was to the FBI. Rather than trying to put 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.640 a backdoor into an existing app or into an existing company, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.360 they could just make their own encryptive phone company and 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:58.680 then read the messages. 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.400 Of criminals incredible drinking directly from the fire hoods, so 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.960 to speak. Do you know exactly how how the deal 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:06.439 was struck. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:12.159 So their pseudonym is AFGU AFG double Low, And my 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:17.800 understanding is that the deal came around fairly quickly and 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.159 the main thing for the FBI and the Australian Federal 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.480 Police that were also part of this investigation, they just 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.880 wanted to make sure that it worked. Basically, it's one 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.800 thing for AFGU to promise, oh, sure you can backdoor 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.720 this phone, It'll all be okay. It's another for it 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.639 to actually, you know, work out in practice in the 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.320 real world. I go into this in much more detail 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.359 in the book. There's a series of events where they 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.200 do verify it is working. There's a scene where someone 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.840 from AFP is laying down on their sofa at home 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.879 and they're seeing messages flash up on their laptop screen 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.720 when they're being intercepted in real time. So this wasn't 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.560 just a pipe dream anymore. It was going to become 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:57.920 a reality, you know, if the criminals bought the phones. 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.600 At least on the cover of your book, which is 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.920 called Darkwoir, this is described as quote the largest sting 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:08.560 operation ever which makes you wonder just how large was 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.480 it and how ubiquitous were a NON phones in the underworld. 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.480 I mean, a non grew to the same size, if 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.600 not bigger than some of the actual encryptive phone companies 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.080 for criminals. They got to something like twelve thousand devices, 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.040 which doesn't sound like that much to us ordinary people, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.359 but Phantom Secure was only something between seven and ten thousand, 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.919 So the FBI was almost better than some of the 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:38.280 criminal organizations at this At this as well as for 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.880 why I called it the largest thing operation ever, it's 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.560 not just sort of the audacity of it, but when 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.240 law enforcement around the world eventually acted on this information, 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.399 they did sort of a worldwide relay race of raids 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.880 all across the planet. Something like nine thousand law enforcement 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.960 officers acted in one single day, which is almost difficult 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.919 to put into words. And now there's a challenge because 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:07.119 you can't even imagine law enforcement activity on that scale. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.320 No, what an incredible scene. How did it rise to prominence? 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.159 I mean, did the FBI have other people who were 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.199 kind of promoting in the criminal underworld? Was it entirely organic? Like, 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.480 how did this become the encryption phone of choice. 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.480 With a norm you can only speak to other and 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.280 NOM users in the same way, if you're on a 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.719 phantom secure phone, you can only speak to phantom secure 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.800 users as well. That's especially interesting when it comes to 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.000 the world of drug trafficking because if you get somebody 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.679 who's really really big in the world of cocaine trafficking, 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.840 or maybe one of these kingpins who's hiding out in Dubai, 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.120 if they switch over to a NORM, then everybody underneath 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.199 them needs to switch as well, and you basically have 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:52.520 this multi level marketing scheme essentially, where it's the people 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.520 at the top who dictate what everybody else underneath has 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.960 to use as well. And then that's how they did it. 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.560 The FBI wasn't sending out agents itself to sell the phones. 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:07.080 They let the phones organically spread among serious drug traffickers. 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:09.720 And one of the most important people for that was 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.720 a guy called hak An Aik. He was Australia's most 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.560 wanted man and he's a top tier drug trafficker, I mean, 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.760 getting billions of dollars worth of product into Australia. And 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.680 when he switched over to a NORM and started using 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.720 the phones and selling the phones as well, I mean 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.520 what better ambassador for your phone company than one of 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.359 the most wanted traffickers. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:32.280 In the world. 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:35.320 The raids were in twenty twenty one, and there are 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.040 arrests made, But you publish a story just this week. 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.639 What's happened since twenty twenty one, and what was the 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:41.600 story from this week? 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.159 Yes, So, in a sort of cruel twist, the FBI 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.960 and the US and the lover authorities didn't just charge 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.080 the criminal users of a norm as in the drug traffickers, 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.560 the hit men, the money launders, that sort of thing. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.560 US authorities also charged the people who sold a Noom 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.720 phones the hest of the FBI. And the reason was 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.879 in the FBI eyes that, well, a Noon became a 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.800 criminal entity in its own rights, so we're going to 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.640 charge you as well. So there was almost a double 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.720 whammy there. And we were all getting ready for this 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:17.119 big trial coming up in March where a few of 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.480 them were going to go on the stand essentially and 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:25.360 try to defend themselves. But now they are pleading guilty essentially, 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:29.840 And that is really important because at the trial, the 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.760 US authorities were preparing to name Afku, They were going 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.440 to name their informant, which to me is crazy but 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:37.959