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Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: This is Rivals, show about music feuds and beefs and

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Speaker 1: long swimming resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm Jordan's

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Speaker 1: and today we're gonna get to probably what might be

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Speaker 1: one of the saddest feuds that's out there. Don't you

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Speaker 1: think it's really it's a lot. Yeah, this is like

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Speaker 1: a tale of good and evil as stark as it

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Speaker 1: could be. It's like it's a Greek tragedy. It is,

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Speaker 1: and I mean it's hard for me to think of

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Speaker 1: like a more obvious hero and a more sort of

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Speaker 1: clear cut villain. Although I think we'll find in this

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Speaker 1: episode that maybe it's a little more great, like not

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Speaker 1: a lot more great. No, no, no, I think I

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Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear who's evil and who's good in

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Speaker 1: this morning. In case you can't tell from that very

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Speaker 1: vivid description, we're talking thinking about the Beach Boys, Brian

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Speaker 1: Wilson and Mike Love. Now, inter band feuds always have

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Speaker 1: an extra lay of hostility, just born from decades spent

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Speaker 1: fighting for the window seat and touring vans and competing

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Speaker 1: for space on albums. But when the bandmates are related

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Speaker 1: that's just a whole other layer of of bile and

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Speaker 1: spite and and decades of resentment, right, I mean, just

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Speaker 1: asked the Gallaghers. Yeah, I mean yeah, the Gallaghers and

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Speaker 1: the Davies brothers and all the way down the line.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're not brothers, their cousins. But yeah, there

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Speaker 1: is that. There's no kissing cousins in this scenario. Let's

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Speaker 1: just put it that way, all right, Let's dive into

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Speaker 1: this mess now. Of course, the Beach Boys are three brothers, Brian, Dennis,

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Speaker 1: Carl Wilson, their cousin Mike Love as you said, and

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Speaker 1: their friend Al Jardine. They were raised in California, which

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Speaker 1: is hopefully not news, and if it is, you're in

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Speaker 1: for a really long show. And I thought they were

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Speaker 1: from Miami. I thought it was the Miami because there's

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Speaker 1: beaches down there. King, Can you imagine if the Beach

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Speaker 1: Boys are actually from Miami? Just feel like that would

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Speaker 1: just warp their whole set, the whole American mythology of

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Speaker 1: like the Florida myth. Can you imagine that? Like, oh man, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's not as seductive the Florida myth. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: come down and uh, you know, start a meth lab

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Speaker 1: and maybe become a serial killer, and he screw up

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Speaker 1: an election, you know, exactly. No, it's not not as

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Speaker 1: romantic as the California But but Brian and Mike both

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Speaker 1: came from unhappy homes. And I don't want to dwell

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Speaker 1: on this too much and bum everybody out even more

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Speaker 1: than we already will in this episode, but they're sort

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Speaker 1: of early life really does set the stage for their relationship,

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Speaker 1: both to music and the relationship to conflicts. Now with Brian,

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Speaker 1: you have the Wilson patriarch Murray, who never won Father

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Speaker 1: of the Year. He probably gets the the Marvin gay

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Speaker 1: Senior Award for bad dads. In case you don't know,

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Speaker 1: Marvin one of the true worst dads in rock history.

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Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned Marvin Gaye's dad. He actually killed

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Speaker 1: his son, so he's probably worse. But Murray is. He's

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Speaker 1: getting the silver medal for terrible dads in rock history.

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Speaker 1: He verbally and physically abused all the boys, and in

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Speaker 1: later years all these stories came out. Some are probably

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Speaker 1: not true, like him whacking Brian with a two by four,

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Speaker 1: and that's the reason why Brian was deaf in one year.

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Speaker 1: That's a story that he that he put out there

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Speaker 1: in later years, maybe didn't happen. There's another story that

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Speaker 1: I think might be true where Murray had a glass

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Speaker 1: eye and he used to to punish the kids take

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Speaker 1: out the glass eye and make them stare into the

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Speaker 1: socket when they had misbehaved. Like, oh, he's really like Gothic,

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Speaker 1: like almost like Edward Edgar Allan Poe like lost short story.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, it's clear that the Wilson brothers had a

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Speaker 1: bad childhood. Yeah. I mean I feel like the most

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Speaker 1: pertinent thing with Murray is that he was like a

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Speaker 1: hackey musician, right, I mean he tried to have his

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Speaker 1: own music career, and I mean did he have any

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Speaker 1: success song on Lawrence Welk called two Steps Side Step

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Speaker 1: and that was kind of like the extent of it

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Speaker 1: was like just enough to give him connections, just enough

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Speaker 1: to give him the bug, but but nothing really happened

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Speaker 1: for him. But that was the one way that the

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Speaker 1: boys kind of learned to uh, to get their father

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Speaker 1: to chill out, is that they would they would singing.

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Speaker 1: That was like really the only way to his heart.

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Speaker 1: Um and Brian was he was very good at singing.

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Speaker 1: He displayed musical gifts very early on, as like a toddler.

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Speaker 1: He started singing, and he was kind of a self

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Speaker 1: taught savant really. He would um listen to a jazz

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Speaker 1: group that he loved, jazz vocal group called the Four Freshmen,

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Speaker 1: and um, it's a quartet. And he used to just

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Speaker 1: listen to their albums for hours and go to the

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Speaker 1: piano and figure out note by note all their harmonies

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Speaker 1: and how they all fit together. And he would teach

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Speaker 1: him to his brothers and his parents. So sort of

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Speaker 1: Brian's relationship to Brian used music as a as a

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Speaker 1: humph like mullion if you will, it soothes the conflicts

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Speaker 1: in the household and um, and that really sort of

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Speaker 1: defines his relationship to music, I think in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways too. And then you have Mike Love. The

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Speaker 1: Wilson's cousin came came from a much wealthier home and

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Speaker 1: uh and their families didn't get along well. The Loves

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Speaker 1: and the Wilson's. I think Mike actually described them in

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Speaker 1: later years as like the hot Fields and McCoy's. But

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Speaker 1: on Christmas they would get together and set aside their

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Speaker 1: differences and and sing Carols, which is basically the story

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Speaker 1: of the Beach Boys, a lot of fighting, and then said,

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Speaker 1: like Mike Club's family that they all were like white

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Speaker 1: pants and like striped shirts, like I just imagine them,

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess because that's how I pictured Mike Love.

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Speaker 1: In the sixties, two really bad things happened back to

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Speaker 1: back to Mike, which I think scarred him for the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life. One he graduates high school, no

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Speaker 1: no prospects. He's pumping gas, and he gets his girlfriend pregnant.

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Speaker 1: His parents as really you know, a very common tale

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Speaker 1: in that era, freak out. His mom finds out, dumps

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Speaker 1: all his clothes in the driveway and kicks him out.

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Speaker 1: Even Mike's dad is blown away by how how savage

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Speaker 1: this is. She's so angry. And then Mike also loses

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Speaker 1: his part time job at the sheet metal shop that

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Speaker 1: his dad runs, and the sheet metal shop goes Belliott

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Speaker 1: goes out of business right away. That the Love family

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Speaker 1: had lived in this really affluent neighborhood, this beautiful house,

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Speaker 1: they lose their home. The Love dad the sheet metal Empire,

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Speaker 1: like the sheet metal Empire. They were sheep, they were

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Speaker 1: they were sheet metal magnates. In southern California in the

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Speaker 1: early sixties. Uh, it's really sad, but Mike, Mike's dad's

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Speaker 1: borrowing money from his teenage kids. It's like, it's really bad.

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Speaker 1: So he sees how he can go from having everything

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Speaker 1: to nothing right away, and the fear that a lot

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Speaker 1: of sort of conservative people have that what you have

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Speaker 1: will be taken from you. So he's in a real

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Speaker 1: desperate spot for money, and he appeals to his cousin Brian,

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Speaker 1: who's musically minded, to start a band. And then thus

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Speaker 1: you have the Beach Boys, and thus you kind of

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Speaker 1: already see Brian Mike approaching music from very different aims.

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Speaker 1: For Mike it's about business and financial security, and that

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Speaker 1: makes sense given his upbringing. And for Brian it's about

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Speaker 1: something different. It's it's a way of setting himself, a

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Speaker 1: part of self protection in a way and in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways, dealing with all the feelings they're inside

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Speaker 1: of him. Does maelstrom of emotions that this is really

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Speaker 1: his only outlet. So that so really so so put

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Speaker 1: another way, really you could say that Mike Love he

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Speaker 1: he looked at music as a way to attain sheet

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Speaker 1: metal like fortune in his in his life whereas Brian

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Speaker 1: looked at music as a way to achieve transcendence by

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Speaker 1: not being hit in the head with a board by

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Speaker 1: his father. That is that is a fair Yes, that's

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Speaker 1: a beautiful way to put it. Um. It's like, if

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Speaker 1: I can write the most beautiful music of all time,

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Speaker 1: my dad won't whack me up upside that you won't

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Speaker 1: make me look at his eye socket. Yes, yes, that's

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Speaker 1: and that's why we have guy only knows. I think

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Speaker 1: I just ruined ruined pet sounds for all of our listeners.

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Speaker 1: I'm really sorry that now, whenever you hear that song,

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Speaker 1: you'll think of all that horrible stuff. The initial schism

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Speaker 1: in the Beach Boys that's really present to this day

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Speaker 1: occurred when Brian quit touring. He hated the road, he

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Speaker 1: hated flying, he hated everything about it. And Brian was

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Speaker 1: the chief mastermind behind the Beach Boys. He wrote essentially

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Speaker 1: almost all the mean almost all the music. Come on,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to the show. I mean, do we

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Speaker 1: have to reel up the many hits that Brian Wilson

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Speaker 1: has written. No, You're You're fun, fun, fun, don't worry baby,

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Speaker 1: round in my room girl. Basically, any any song with like,

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Speaker 1: didn't he really Jan and deedon songs too. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: wrote Surf City and it was his first number one,

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Speaker 1: and his dad was pissed. He's like, you gave that

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Speaker 1: song away? What do you talk? What are you doing?

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Speaker 1: It is like, next time you write a number one,

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Speaker 1: write it for us. So it's like when I wrote

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Speaker 1: two Step PoCA or whatever that song was called, I

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Speaker 1: kept it for myself. I wouldn't give two step what

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Speaker 1: was it called, too step on two steps side step?

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Speaker 1: I think it was called. If any Murray Wilson fans

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Speaker 1: please tweet me he would. Murray would not have given

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Speaker 1: two step sized step to Jan and Dean, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you that much. He would have kept that for himself.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, So so Brian Wilson. He's the mastermind of

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Speaker 1: the Beach Boys. He's written tons of songs, and Mike

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Speaker 1: Love is the balding sex symbol at the top of

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Speaker 1: the band and in his at least on stage, and

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Speaker 1: and sacks soloist occasionally to um it's already quinte sad.

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Speaker 1: But it would be like two solos, it would be like, well,

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Speaker 1: like four or nine would be like my my, my,

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Speaker 1: my mo. Yeah, I don't know how good he was

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Speaker 1: at Sacks, but but he was not very good. But

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Speaker 1: but Brian has a nervous breakdown on a flight to

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Speaker 1: a show in Texas in December ninetour that just completely

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the pressure to to write hits, produced the hits,

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Speaker 1: sing the hits, go on the road, and play the

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Speaker 1: hits to everybody. It's just is too much for him.

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Speaker 1: He decides that he's going to stay home and right

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Speaker 1: and produced and handle all the studio work while the

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Speaker 1: rest of the boys gone the road. And this kind

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Speaker 1: of creates two separate Beach Boys. There's the Beach Boys,

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Speaker 1: the touring unit which Mike Love fronts as sort of

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Speaker 1: the cavorting but Turbans Sequins frontman. And then you have

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Speaker 1: this very balding already balding already I think he was,

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Speaker 1: you know, he must have been balding like in grade school.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine Mike Love ever having like a full

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Speaker 1: head of hair. Uh, it would just be weird. I guess.

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Speaker 1: I do. Like Glenn Campbell was in the Beach Boys

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Speaker 1: at that point to where because he replaced Brian Wilson, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think initially, and then Bruce Johnston initially. He eventually

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Speaker 1: became the permanent replacement on the road. But Glenn Campbell

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Speaker 1: of later Ryan Stone, Cowboy Fame and many other hits,

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Speaker 1: uh was in the Beach Boys for a while at

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Speaker 1: that time. Yeah, I honestly think it was just because

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Speaker 1: he like because Brian's very tall and Glenn is also

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Speaker 1: very tall. Was a part of me that almost thinks

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Speaker 1: he just fit in like Brian stagewear and stuff, because

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Speaker 1: they were both like well over six ft. But um,

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Speaker 1: so there are two and so there's the touring unit

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Speaker 1: of the Beach Boys, and then there's Brian in the studio,

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Speaker 1: and he wants to push the envelope. He wants to

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Speaker 1: compete with Phil Specter, who's his hero. He he loves

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Speaker 1: the whole wall of sound technique where he's just creating

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Speaker 1: these little pop symphonies. And he also loves the Beatles.

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Speaker 1: He and their their Capitol Records labelmates. A lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: he felt that the Beatles kind of ate the Beach

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Speaker 1: Boys lunch when they came over in sixty four. All

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, the Beach Boys were the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: in the country, and then the Beatles game and totally

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Speaker 1: clips them and and he he couldn't even get mad

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Speaker 1: about it because they were so damn good. But Brian

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Speaker 1: has this real competitive drive that comes out in the

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Speaker 1: studio to create these increasingly complex songs, complex harmonies, complex

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Speaker 1: vocal arrangement and complex instrumental arrangements that he calls upon

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Speaker 1: this group of studio um session players called the Wrecking Crew,

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Speaker 1: who are you know now legendary. There's documentaries about them,

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Speaker 1: books about them. So the touring unit and the studio

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Speaker 1: unit Beach Boys are kind of fundamentally at odds if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, because what is the touring group

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do? They want to get out there,

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Speaker 1: play the familiar songs that people love with what they

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Speaker 1: have available. Smell the grease paint, right, meet the girls,

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Speaker 1: the rock stars. And then you have Brian Wilson who

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Speaker 1: wants to make Pets Sounds the greatest album of all time,

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Speaker 1: which he does and it's incredible. But like Mike Love, who,

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Speaker 1: as we said earlier, is evil incarnate, he hates Pets Sounds.

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Speaker 1: How can you hate Pets Sounds? Yeah? He how can

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Speaker 1: you hate pet Sounds? Jordan's you know why? Because he

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Speaker 1: messed with the formula uh uh, that's it. Don't funk

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Speaker 1: with your formula. That was the thing. That's the quote

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Speaker 1: from this period, don't funk with the formula, which Blank

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Speaker 1: Love said. And did Tony Asher say that? He said

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Speaker 1: that it was at Van Dyke Parks. I think it

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Speaker 1: was um one of it was someone another one of

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Speaker 1: Brian's associates. It wasn't them. I think it was Michael

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Speaker 1: VOSSI I think was his name, one of one of

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Speaker 1: the Beach Boys started their own label, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was one of their their label executives, Um. Mike

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Speaker 1: Love has frequently denied that he has said this. He's

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Speaker 1: also frequently denied that he hates pet Sounds. He said

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Speaker 1: he had a couple of issues with it though, with

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Speaker 1: Pet Sounds, and they were pretty much as follows. Brian

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Speaker 1: recorded the instrumental tracks for pet Sounds while the Beach Boys,

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Speaker 1: the touring group, were on tour in Japan, and they

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Speaker 1: come home from playing being a rock and roll band

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Speaker 1: playing all you know, fun fun fun, I get around

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Speaker 1: just as like a guitar, bass and drums group to

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Speaker 1: cheering crowds in Japan, and Brian plays them this almost

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Speaker 1: classical sounding with music with harpsichords and thereman's and o

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Speaker 1: bo's and accordions, all this stuff, clarinets, and it's just

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Speaker 1: wildly different than anything they had done before. This is

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Speaker 1: not this does not sound like rock and roll to him.

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Speaker 1: And this is before Sergeant Pepper. I mean, like my

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Speaker 1: Paul McCartney famously hears pet Sounds and that's like the

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Speaker 1: inspiration for him to push the Beatles to make Sergeant Pepper.

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Speaker 1: But before Pet Sounds, that really wasn't like a rock record.

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Speaker 1: That that was that elaborate, you know, and Mike Love

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Speaker 1: just couldn't handle it, just blew his mind, you know.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that he really hated too, with

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Speaker 1: the with the lyrics. He really and part of it

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Speaker 1: was personal because he actually wrote a lot of the

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Speaker 1: lyrics to a lot of the early Beach Boy hits.

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Speaker 1: And for this album, Brian asked Tony Asher, who was

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Speaker 1: I feel like he would have been like on Madman.

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Speaker 1: He was. He was an ad copywriter, very sort of

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Speaker 1: like a jazz fan, very sophisticated, and he really didn't

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Speaker 1: he didn't know almost anything that the Beach Boys had

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Speaker 1: done at all. And for Brian, this was great. It

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Speaker 1: was a totally fresh blood, new approach and something totally different.

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Speaker 1: But Mike he was threatened by this because not only

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Speaker 1: was his role as lyricists in the band threatened, but

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Speaker 1: also there was one song in particular. Do you know

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Speaker 1: this song that he really hated, don't hang on to

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Speaker 1: your Ego? Yeah, there was a song called that that

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Speaker 1: was the title hang on your Ego and hang on

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Speaker 1: to your Ego, the idea of like lst like shattering

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Speaker 1: your ego, right, I mean it wasn't like the drug

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Speaker 1: connotations basically of that song that like Mike Love objected to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he called it what he called it nauseating. He said

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Speaker 1: that some of the words were so totally offensive to

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Speaker 1: me that I wouldn't even sing him because I thought

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Speaker 1: it was too nauseating. He his stomach was wrenching trying

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Speaker 1: to sing hang onto your Ego and by the way,

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Speaker 1: like my love. You know, there were if you listen

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Speaker 1: to early Beach Boys records, there's like songs about like

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Speaker 1: like root beer on those records, and like songs about

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Speaker 1: like amusement parks, you know. But it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: like he wrote lyrics about like like riot by Year,

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Speaker 1: and he was cool with that, but like a song

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Speaker 1: about how taking mine altering substances takes away your sense

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Speaker 1: of self and therefore allows you to elevate to a

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Speaker 1: higher plane of existence. That was offensive to him at

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Speaker 1: this time. So that was Mike Love's mentality. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because, like you know, the dynamic that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about here on Pet Sounds, this idea of Brian

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Speaker 1: Wilson wanted to be musically progressive and Mike Love wanted

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Speaker 1: to maintain the identity of the Beach Boys that was

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Speaker 1: already established. And it seems like that is what ends

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Speaker 1: up being the recurring conflict between these two guys throughout

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Speaker 1: the rest of the history of the band, because we've

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Speaker 1: got Smile that comes after this, which is even like

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Speaker 1: which makes Pet Sounds sound conservative. I mean that is

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Speaker 1: really going out and see like the another reaches of

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Speaker 1: like pop music in the late sixties. Oh absolutely, And

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Speaker 1: I think the sort of the link between Pet Sounds

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Speaker 1: and Smile is good vibrations, which it kind of proves

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Speaker 1: both of their points. For Brian, it was his most

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Speaker 1: daring studio experiment to date. It took something like six

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Speaker 1: months to make, cost fifty dollars. He assembled it almost

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Speaker 1: like a filmmaker making a movie. He would put all

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Speaker 1: these little snippets of of um of musical fragments together

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Speaker 1: like scenes like in a film editor stitching in it

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Speaker 1: a film together, um. And it was incredibly elaborate, incredibly

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Speaker 1: time consuming, but it went to the top of the charts.

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Speaker 1: Mike Love wrote the lyrics to it, and he as

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Speaker 1: he is very quick to point out in many interviews

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Speaker 1: over the years, and he feels that he gave it

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Speaker 1: the hook that the Beach Boys fans who knew their

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Speaker 1: earlier stuff could relate to, which was boy Girl. He

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Speaker 1: took this kind of far out idea of of people

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Speaker 1: giving off different vibrations and all this eesp stuff, and

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Speaker 1: he put it in a context that mass consumers could understand.

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Speaker 1: And you know, he's probably right. It was the Each

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Speaker 1: Boy's biggest single of the sixties. And he was like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, what the kids like, they're into excitations.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk about excitation. Is that a real word?

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Speaker 1: I've never heard that in any of the contacts than

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Speaker 1: in Good Vibrations. Did he make that that's a made

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Speaker 1: up word? Right? Excitations? I think he references that an

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Speaker 1: interview where he says, you know it's not used very much,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's like technically a word, but it's

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Speaker 1: like a really stupid word. Maybe that that's my that's

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Speaker 1: my official take on It might be like technically correct,

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Speaker 1: but you just shouldn't use it. We're gonna take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and get a word from our sponsor before

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Speaker 1: we get two more rivals, so you have good vibrations.

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Speaker 1: Ends up being this enormous hit, but in a way

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Speaker 1: it's a last horrab sorts of the glory years of

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Speaker 1: the Beach Boys because they end up going into this

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Speaker 1: wilderness period in the late sixties that begins with Smile

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Speaker 1: and Smile is this mythical record. I think it's fair

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Speaker 1: to say that it's the most famous lost album in

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Speaker 1: rock history, even though it's been found. I guess you

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Speaker 1: know it was. It was. It was released in two

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Speaker 1: thousand four when Brian Wilson recorded it with Um musicians

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Speaker 1: at that time, and he and he ended up reviving

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Speaker 1: it and it's a really good version of it. But

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Speaker 1: there's still this idea of like a master work that

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Speaker 1: this mad genius was working on that never quite came off. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even even when he did finish it, I feel like

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Speaker 1: he finished it, and then about ten years later, the

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Speaker 1: Capital put out a box set with all the Smile

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Speaker 1: sessions from back in the sixties with the original group

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Speaker 1: and the original musicians. But there's still something tantalizing about

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Speaker 1: it not being exactly what it was supposed to be,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like it did because it

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Speaker 1: didn't come together in the sixties, because he didn't finish

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Speaker 1: it at the top of his game. If that is

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Speaker 1: a fair thing to say, you know what I mean, No, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, and I think I mean, there's so much

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Speaker 1: beautiful music that came out of that period. You know,

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Speaker 1: You've got songs like Wonderful in Our Prayer and cabin

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Speaker 1: Essence and Serves Up, especially the piano demo version that

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Speaker 1: you can hear on one of the box sets. There's

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Speaker 1: like a million Beach Boys box sets. Um, but I

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Speaker 1: feel like Smile is even more than Pet Sounds. Is

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Speaker 1: like the foundational text of like the Brian Wilson cult.

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Speaker 1: And I know from talking with you that you have

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Speaker 1: fallen into that cult. And I know I fell into

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Speaker 1: that cult. I think I'm still in the I mean,

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Speaker 1: I still love Brian Wilson, I still love the Beach boys.

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Speaker 1: But there was a time in my life where I

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Speaker 1: was like, I was like one of those teenaged men,

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Speaker 1: teenage into twentysomething year old men who like have Brian

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Speaker 1: Wilson posters on the wall, and like read books about

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Speaker 1: Brian Wilson and and sort of ruminate on the idea

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Speaker 1: of this romantic, loner, broken man genius who tried to

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Speaker 1: make a masterpiece and and couldn't quite pull it off.

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Speaker 1: And there's so much about Brian Wilson I think that

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Speaker 1: is based on unrealized potential. Obviously, he made so many

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Speaker 1: great records in his lifetime. But what is I think

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Speaker 1: ultimately so tantalizing to those of us in the Brian

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Speaker 1: Wilson cult is the idea that he was creating this

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Speaker 1: sort of god level music that he came so close

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Speaker 1: to finishing but couldn't complete. It is that fair to

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Speaker 1: say that a fair summation of of of like the

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Speaker 1: appeal of of of being obsessed with this guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's part of it. For me, it was And maybe

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Speaker 1: this probably says more about me than it does about

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Speaker 1: Brian Wilson's fans, But as just a a a shy, sensitive,

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Speaker 1: kind of dumpy kid, in high school who had, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of feelings and really know what to what

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Speaker 1: to put them in. There was something romantic about this

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Speaker 1: guy who, um, who took all of these teenage emotion

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Speaker 1: and and went off and made something beautiful with them.

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Speaker 1: And he wasn't afraid to be vulnerable or sensitive. And

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Speaker 1: I think that that was sort of where I approached him,

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Speaker 1: and what I really admired about him, I was that

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Speaker 1: there was a certain bravery to it too. I mean

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Speaker 1: you he kind of he hijacked this multimillion dollar feel

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Speaker 1: good industry and used it to express himself in a

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00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 1: really really beautiful, really really intimate way. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: reverse punk rock in a way. You had all these people,

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Speaker 1: including his own family, saying no, no, no, make rock

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Speaker 1: and roll, like like just just just be out there,

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Speaker 1: like just you know, just play stuff for the kids.

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Speaker 1: And he wanted to make something that was a little

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Speaker 1: more I say, sophisticated. I don't mean that to come

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Speaker 1: off as pretentious, but something that something that certainly sensitive,

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Speaker 1: more sensitive and beautiful. Yeah. And and and the sort

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00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: of the pressure was working against him were immense. I

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Speaker 1: mean there have been books written about why Smile didn't

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Speaker 1: have and documentaries, and I've read every single one of them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, his own struggles with drugs and mental illness,

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00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 1: which has been well documented over the years. UH troubles

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Speaker 1: with the label, troubles within the group, especially with Mike Love,

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Speaker 1: who you know, if he's not in the pet sounds,

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Speaker 1: he's definitely not feeling UM. You know, A a sort

428
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: of kaleidoscopic vision through American history with Van Dyke Parks

429
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: is UH lyrics, which is really where the Smile showdown.

430
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: The big Smile showdown occurred was when the band were

431
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: recording the vocal sessions for cabin Essence track cabin Essence, Um,

432
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 1: Mike Love is handled a lyric sheet, and again if

433
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: he doesn't like hang on your Ego, he really doesn't

434
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: know what to make of the line over and over

435
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: the crow fly cries uncover the cornfield, over and over,

436
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: the thresher hovers the wheat field, and he's just like,

437
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: what the crystal clear man, crystal clear you can anyone

438
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: can figure that out come, But Brian, Mike's not. That

439
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: doesn't really get it. So, Brian, what the hell is this?

440
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: Get get the guy who wrote this in here? So

441
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: Brian calls Van Dyke parks into the studio. Van Dyke

442
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: realizes very quickly that he's sort of wandered into a

443
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: family feud that's been simmering for years. And Mike just

444
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: what's what's the expression holds his feet to the flame

445
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: and says, just makes him explain himself, what did these

446
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: lyrics mean? And Van Dyke says, you know what, I

447
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know what these lyrics mean their poetry.

448
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: If you don't like them, throw him away and uh.

449
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 1: And that is kind of the main the example that's

450
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: decited again and again and sort of the disintegration of

451
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: Smiles is the band rebelling against um the direction Brian

452
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: wanted to go on in a very very concrete way

453
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: he did. Can I just say quick that, like I

454
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: love that Van, but Dyke Park still hates Mike Glove

455
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: more than fifty years later, Like Mike Glove's birthday wasn't

456
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: that long ago? And on Mike Glove's birthday, Van Dyke

457
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: Parks tweeted out a photo and he said, happy birthday, Mike,

458
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: and it was a photo of Mike Love with Donald

459
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: Trump and it was just like, you are still pissed

460
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: about Cabin essence. Man, I love it. I love Van

461
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: Dyke Parks. Never let it go. Man. People tell you

462
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 1: that you should let go of your grudges after fifty years,

463
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: I say, hold on tight. Van Dyke Parks, keep your

464
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: hatred of Mike Love alive because it gives the rest

465
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: of us life to see you carrying that grudge. Do

466
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: you want to know mind blowing factoid? Uh? You know

467
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: who plays accordion on Kokomo the the Mike Love lad

468
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: Ladder era Beach Boys hit No Idea, Van Dyke Parks.

469
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: Van Dyke Parks plays accordion on Kokomo, oh man, which

470
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: kind of like throws my whole Like yeah, like Van

471
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: Dyke's still being pissed at Mike thing and do uh,

472
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: but I've been in Van Dyck's mind. He was thinking,

473
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: like this is a subversive move for me to be

474
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: doing this. I'm gonna I'm adding us verse of wrinkle

475
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: to this like beer commercial of a song and like

476
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: thirty years, they're going to talk about this on a

477
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: podcast and it's going to blow their minds and that

478
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: will make up with it. So Van Dyke, I salute

479
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: you for that. You know, it's it's interesting because you

480
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: know we talked about Smile, We talked about the album

481
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: that we imagine it to be in the album that

482
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: it ended up not being. And the reality is that

483
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: for the Beach Boys, as I said earlier, did send

484
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: them in into this wilderness period where I think for

485
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: like the hardcore Beach Boys fans like the records that

486
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: they put out in the late sixties and early seventies

487
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: are like some of the most fun and interesting records

488
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: that they put out, like Sunflower and Surfs Up and

489
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: Holland and all those records. Friends but commercially Friends is great,

490
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: which has the song that Charles Manson roade and then

491
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: it's Wilson changed the lyrics and then that's probably why

492
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: we had all the murders and all that stuff. Um

493
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: but um, really, the Beach Boys are like a commercial

494
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: nonentity for several years until the mid seventies, where there's

495
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: this nostalgia now for the early sixties and you have,

496
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: you know, films like American Graffiti that are stoking this

497
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: which features several Beach Boys songs, and then the Beach

498
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: Boys themselves they put out the greatest hits album in

499
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy four called Endless Summer which ends up

500
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: being a big hit. And it's around this time when

501
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: the Beach Boys, certainly by the end of the seventies

502
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: going into the eighties, they stopped being a band that

503
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: is like a vital creative force, and they become essentially

504
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: a show band playing oldies. The gulf between their their

505
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: commercial success and they're touring success just became so wide

506
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: that they just decided to go out and play the hits.

507
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: And that's where Mike Love excels. And that was partially

508
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: just what the industry dictated at the time, but also

509
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: Brian was really sidelined by his, you know, extensive mental illness.

510
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: This was the period when when he was in bed

511
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: for a number of years and then he had his

512
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: his in a sandbox too. He's in a bed in

513
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: a sandbox. Like I feel like the sandbox aspect is

514
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: like it'd be sad enough if he was just in bed,

515
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: but like his bed was in a literal sandbox. That

516
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: was piano was in the sandbox. He wanted to feel

517
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: the beach when he wrote, but wasn't the bed, But

518
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: wasn't his piano in the bedroom Like with the sandbox

519
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: where it was like there was was there a separate

520
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: sandbox room with I think this is this is how

521
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: deep my nursery goes. It was in Laurel Way, his

522
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: house pre smile Um, and he had the sandbox built

523
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: in the living room for the baby grand piano to

524
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: go in and so he could feel the beach when

525
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: he wrote. But then his dogs starting using as a

526
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: place to go to the bathroom and and they got

527
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: rid of it. So that's that's the story of the

528
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson sandbox, which really you gotta say, like the

529
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: dog was more logical than Brian Wilson in that instance.

530
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: I feel like if you put a sandbox into your house,

531
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: it's logical for a dog to take a shift in it.

532
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: It's not logical for a genius songwriter to write songs

533
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 1: in the sandbox. So you know, I'm saying, you know,

534
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: point one to the dog. In that instance, I have

535
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: to say those dogs can be heard. Didn't really write

536
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: any great songs in that time, I guess, other than

537
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: there's that story about like, isn't there a story about

538
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: like Mike Love showing up at his house and like

539
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,719
Speaker 1: berating him until he wrote Sale on Sailor. Yeah, Like

540
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: I heard this story like that he was like basically

541
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: like bullied into writing this incredible song on ended up

542
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: being on the Holland album and is one of like

543
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: like one of the only truly great songs of like

544
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: that period that he wrote. But yeah, he was like

545
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: bullied into doing it basically. Oh. I mean, that scene

546
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: was played out again and again and again. I Mean.

547
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: The thing that a lot of people know about Brian

548
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: is that in the early the seventies everyone kind of

549
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: thinks he was already in bed. He was doing a

550
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, but none of it was for the

551
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: Beach Boys. Like he was working on like he like

552
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: poetry albums with people, and he was working with Danny

553
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: Hutton Um who's in Three Dog Night, and uh, working

554
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: on all these sort of weird side projects. Brian's wife

555
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: Um was in a group called American Spring. Have you

556
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: ever heard them? No, I've had. It's Wild Irish Spring,

557
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: but not American Spring. For you soap fans out there,

558
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: um No, you gotta check it out. It's so weird.

559
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: It's like I think it's from one. It's Brian's wife

560
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: and her sister are doing this like double act. It's

561
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: it's so weird. Go check it out. It sounds like

562
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: something like, I don't I don't even know. I it

563
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: just has to be. Is this like the proto Wilson

564
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: Phillips you know what? I never thought of that. I

565
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: Sonically no, but familial maybe, yeah, I mean it's it's

566
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: like the model. But but the band would just like

567
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: they would say to him, look, you've got to do

568
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,239
Speaker 1: this for us. You are under contract to do this

569
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: for us. If you don't, your wife will leave you,

570
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: she will take the kids. The record company will sue you,

571
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: and you will be out on the street with no one,

572
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: no home. I mean they would say these things to him,

573
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: and which is and he was in a really fragile

574
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: mental state anyway, and it was really really I mean,

575
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: they bully him, which is a lot of ways the

576
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: way same way as dad got him to make music

577
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: when he was young too. It was really through bullying

578
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: was the way to get get him to to produce stuff.

579
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: But it's really sad. Yeah. And and at that time,

580
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: I mean you had this dynamic basically where you know,

581
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson coming back to the Beach Boys. It's almost

582
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: like you know, like a like a like a sports

583
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: team like waiting for like their injured quarterback to come back,

584
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: you know, like when Washington had Robert Griffin and there

585
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: was like all those years like where Robert Griffin is

586
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: gonna come back and he's going to be as good

587
00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: as he used to be, He's gonna get his leg

588
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: back together, and you know, we're gonna go back to

589
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: the playoffs, and he never really could do it. And

590
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, there was that campaign in the ninety six

591
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: I think it was where it was like the Brian

592
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: is Back thing, and I think there was even like

593
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: a Brian his Back song where you know, he's he's

594
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: gonna be back in the band. Even though like it's

595
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: kind of sad because like Carl Wilson and Dennis Wilson

596
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: were writing like some really great music at that time,

597
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: trying to step out of their brother's shadow, but like

598
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: Brian's shadow was so large that they couldn't ever quite

599
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: do it, you know, even though Dennis made a record

600
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 1: in seventies seven called Uh Pacific Ocean Blue, which is

601
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: I think a wonderful record and it's beloved by cultists everywhere.

602
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: People who are in the Brian Wilson cult, I think

603
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: tend to also be in the Dennis Wilson cult, I

604
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: assume you are as well. Oh, yeah, the the the

605
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: true Beach Boy. Yeah. Did you know that Dennis is

606
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: the uncredited co writer on You Are So Beautiful to Me,

607
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: the Joe Cocker Billy Preston track. Know that he like

608
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: would sing it on stage because there's when his voice

609
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: was shot at the end of his life. They would show,

610
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: you know, there's like documentary clips of him singing, you know,

611
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: like where he sounds like Tom Waite's basically at the

612
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 1: end of his life for me, And I'm curious if

613
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: you had a similar situation. I think, like what was

614
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: so appealing about a lot of this stuff coming at it?

615
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: You know, And this is getting back to the cult

616
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: of Brian Wilson. Was the Beach Boys that I first

617
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: encountered was in the late nineteen eighties when they had Kokomo,

618
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: when that was a huge hit number one song, and

619
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: also when the Beach Boys were like regular guest stars

620
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: on Full House, you know, like they were known as

621
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: like the Full House Band essentially in the late nineteen eighties,

622
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: And um, I knew the Beach Boys as Mike Loves

623
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: Band essentially. I mean, Brian Wilson would be in the

624
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: background at those times. Like there's like if you those

625
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: old Full House episodes, like there's episodes that Brian Wilson

626
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: is on and I think he he even has some dialogue,

627
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: like very awkward dialogue in those episodes. But the Beach

628
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: Boys were like the squarest, dorky ist, uh you know,

629
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: at least cool band in the world. They were the

630
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: Regans band. They were like the Reagan's favorite. They were

631
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: the Reagan band, and that was what Mike Loves signified.

632
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: And then to actually go back and like learn about

633
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: this history and learn like, oh wait a minute, like

634
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: in late in the mid to late sixties, they were

635
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: actually this innovative, uh, far out band, and it was

636
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: because of this guy, Brian Wilson that was driving them,

637
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: you know that it was like discovering a whole new world.

638
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: It'd be like discovering that um that you know, like

639
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: that round Reagan was actually you know, uh, Jerry Garcia

640
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: or something like that. He was Jerry Garcia in the sixties,

641
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, like like which which would have blown my

642
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: mine to have discovered that. It's like, oh wait a second,

643
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: like why is he a Republican now? But like back

644
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: then he was like this cool hippie guy um and

645
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: I think for me that created immediately this fascinating tension

646
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: in the Beach Boys between really the two competing ideas

647
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: of what this band was and like what the real

648
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: Beach Boys were. And it was like, are the real

649
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: Beach Boys this sort of like oldies nostalgia conservative uh

650
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: down the middle of the road act that you see

651
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: on Full House, or are they this like counterculture, cutting edge,

652
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: progressive pop act from the sixties that never fully realized

653
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: their potential because of the conservative guy um. And now

654
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: I almost feel like it's reverted the other way too,

655
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: You think so, well, no, I almost feel like we

656
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: and again, this is somebody who's just a total die

657
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: hard Brian Wilson pet sounds smile era fan, But it

658
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: almost feels like that era has been so overrepresented in

659
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: recent years that we almost neglect the the the people

660
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: who who do love them for their early hits and stuff,

661
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Almost became subversive in the

662
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties, to say, when Kocomo was

663
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: out there, to say, oh, yeah, to be a self

664
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: described like cool person and be like, yeah, I love

665
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: the Beach Boys. Did you know they had this whole

666
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: weird era where they were like, you know, getting crawl

667
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: on their knees, making barnyard sounds and Brian Wilson's swimming pool,

668
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, all that kind of crazy stuff. And I

669
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: feel like that sort of the rejection of all of

670
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: Brian's most heartfelt and innovative music in the sixties. We've

671
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: overcompensated for it so much now that I almost feel

672
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: like we've neglected the hits in a weird way, which

673
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: in the hits signify to me, Mike Love, what do

674
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: you what do you think about that? Well? I mean,

675
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: I think it depends on who you talk to. You.

676
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: I think like if you're especially if probably like a

677
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: people that we know in our friends, it is overrepresented,

678
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: you know. But I feel like in the in the

679
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: general culture, most people don't know deep Cuts from or

680
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: from Sunflower, you know, like that stuff is still pretty obscure,

681
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: and it is more about the surf hits of the

682
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: early sixties, which, by the way, I love those songs too,

683
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: like I love the entire Beach Boys history. Um, but

684
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any question that like their image

685
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: as fixed in the minds of like most people, is

686
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: the image that's been perpetuated by Mike Love going on,

687
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, almost sixty years at this point. It is

688
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: interesting to me, though, that this conflict that we're talking

689
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: about about, you know, who is the real Beach Boys? Um,

690
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: it continues up until this day. I mean, you know

691
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: there was that fifty reunion tour that they did. Um,

692
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: I guess when was that? In two thousand twelves where

693
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: we're where Brian Wilson came out back into the band

694
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: and they did a bunch of shows and they were

695
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: very well received, and then it ended acrimoniously essentially because

696
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: Michaelub ended up booking a bunch of dates with the

697
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: usual band. You know, but even though there was all

698
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: this demand for like the classic lineup, he am I

699
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: getting this wrong? I mean, because I feel like Michaelub

700
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: basically said, Okay, well, this was like a temporary thing

701
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: where Brian Wilson's back in the band. Uh. Now I'm

702
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: gonna get back to playing County Fairs with Bruce Johnston

703
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: and we're gonna play We're gonna play this the same

704
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: fifteen songs every night. I mean, all throughout the nineties,

705
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: Brian and Mike had were engaged. I feel like they

706
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: lived in court. They were suing each other for one

707
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: thing or another. Mike sued him for song royalties that

708
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: he felt he was already felt he wasn't credited for

709
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: for writing lyrics on a bunch of songs. UM. He

710
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: sued Brian for his autobiography that he wrote UM, and

711
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 1: then he also sued the entire band when Carl Wilson

712
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: died to um to own the rights to the Beach

713
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: Boy's name. I think that's important to say is that

714
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: Mike Love, after the death of Carl Wilson, retained the

715
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: right to have the Beach Boy's name out there, which

716
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 1: is a lot of Brian Wilson fans thought was weird

717
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: because wait, Brian Wilson can't tour under the Beach Boy's

718
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: name without Mike Love's permission. That's kind of strange considering he's,

719
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, Brian Wilson. So for from the late nineties

720
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: until two twelve, like you said, yeah, there were two.

721
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: There were. Brian toward usually with Al Jardine, and Mike

722
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: Love toured with Bruce Johnston, and then they got back

723
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: together for the fiftieth anniversary. They made an album That's

724
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: Why God Made radio. What do you think of that album?

725
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: You know, I have not heard it since it came out.

726
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: I remember I reviewed it, and I think I reviewed

727
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: it favorably, but I have no desire to ever do

728
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: that never again. I don't know is it is it good? Though?

729
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: I I guess I remember it being okay, remember yeah,

730
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: I remember being better than I thought it would be.

731
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: But I haven't listened to it since then either. I mean,

732
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: my memory of that tour is that they were able

733
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: to strike a balance between playing the hits and some

734
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: more obscure songs like it seemed like it was a

735
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: happy medium, yeah, of commercial and artistic Beach Boys music.

736
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: And they also and all the guys in the band

737
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: seem happy too, which is why a lot of them

738
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: were really shocked. Brian and al In particularly were really

739
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: surprised when they learned that Mike was going on the

740
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: road without them, and he might claim that it was

741
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: a miscommunication. He said he was told from Brian's management

742
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: that Brian no more tours for him. Some Mike moved

743
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: on and just moved on with his life and started booking,

744
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: like he said, county fairs and stuff with his usual band,

745
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: and then Brian's camp said never mind, wait, we we

746
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: want to go, and Mike said, too late. It's a

747
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: lot of he said, he said, I guess in this case, basically,

748
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: Brian looked like he'd been dumped and he I think,

749
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: he said in an interview, it feels like I got fired,

750
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: which is a horrible thing for I mean, I'm hard

751
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: pressed to think of a more beloved musical figure than

752
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: than Brian Wilson, right, like just well right, I mean again,

753
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: like he is good incarnate. You know, he's this angelic

754
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: figure who has had a really hard life. He's written

755
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 1: some of the most beautiful songs ever. It just seems

756
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: like a sweet guy, really hard to dislike. And then

757
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: you have Mike Love, who, um, it just seems perpetually

758
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: agitated and grumpy. He looks very stern all the time. Uh,

759
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: he's very fond of like wearing tucked in shirts and

760
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: very tight pants well into his seventies. Uh. And uh

761
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: he's also a Trump supporter, which is just like the

762
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: cherry on the ship Sunday with him, I feel like,

763
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, you have to also be a Trump supporter,

764
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: Mike Love. Really, can't you just be a political I

765
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: just I'm asking you to be a liberal, but you

766
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: could be a political I mean, come on, you have

767
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: to like wear the Maga hat and and do all

768
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: that stuff. What's hilarious to me too, is, you know,

769
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: the most recent conflict which these guys h was concerning

770
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: Mike Love booking a Beach Boys show. What was it?

771
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: It was that a It was a Safari Club International

772
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: convention in Reno. It's basically like game hunting, right, like

773
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: where they're hunting like like you know, I don't it's

774
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: not endangered animals, but it's like you know, yeah, I

775
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: mean it's it's like he couldn't. It's like it's like

776
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: like a puppy kicking convention. Like I mean, it's that

777
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: level of like yeah, like you don't you really maybe

778
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: don't don't need to do that. Like a gig is

779
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: a gig, I know, But how does it even work?

780
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: Are they on stage playing fun, fun fun while people

781
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: are like executing animals in the audience, Like or do

782
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: they kill the animals after the show or is it

783
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: like that's the victory at like you know, like they

784
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: killed them first and then they go to see the

785
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: Beach Boys. I don't, I don't really know how that

786
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: how that would work. But either way, it's not really

787
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: the association that you want as a Beach Boys fan.

788
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: You know, to think of animals being killed and in

789
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: Beach Boys music playing all right, and we'll be right

790
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 1: back with more rivals. So this is the conflict between

791
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: these guys, and you know, this is the part of

792
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: the episode like where you have to think of like

793
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: a pro case for for both people in the rivalry.

794
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: I feel like with Brian Wilson, it's pretty easy to

795
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: make the case for him, and I think we've already

796
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: made it that he was the creative genius of the band,

797
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: that he was the one that he just seems more

798
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: likable and sweet, and I don't think there's any question

799
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: that he's the soul of the Beach Boys, that he's

800
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: the one that is what He's the person that sets

801
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: them apart from all the other surf groups, certainly of

802
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: the sixties and and and of most American pop groups

803
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: of that era. Like there's a lot of great bands

804
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: from that time, but like they don't have Brian Wilson,

805
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: like he is the genius of the group. Uh So

806
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: I don't I feel like you don't have to work

807
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: very hard to make a pro case for Brian Wilson. Um,

808
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: I'm kind of more intrigued by trying to make a

809
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: pro case for Mike Love because this is literally playing

810
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: Devil's advocate, like we are literally defending the devil. I

811
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: don't actually think it's that hard to make a Mike

812
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: Love case, which is I know, I mean, I'm I'm

813
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: literally looking at on my wall. I have a autographed

814
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: Pet Sounds tour set list that my cousin who did

815
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: lights for him in like two thousand one, got for me,

816
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: and I have it framed over my desk. It's on

817
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: my prize possessions in the same place that some families

818
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: would have like a portrait of Jesus. I have a

819
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson autographed. So that's the level that we're dealing

820
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: with here. But I will say I think Mike Love

821
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: was a crucial ingredient to the band. I think that, Um, really,

822
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: you think of the Beach Boys, you think of this

823
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: the California myth, and I know it's been done to

824
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: death in everything piece ever written about the Each Boys

825
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: for the past, you know, since David Leaf was writing

826
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: about them in the late seventies, it's been done to death,

827
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: but it really is a crucial part of Americana, and

828
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: that springs from Mike loves lyrics, and he was the

829
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 1: main lyricist from the Beach Boys, uh in these sort

830
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: of pre pet sounds there. I know, Brian worked with

831
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: other people like Gary Usher and um, what's his name,

832
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: Robert Christian I think his name was, But primarily it's

833
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: a lot of it is Mike's vision, it's it's Dennis

834
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: Wilson's life. He was the only surfer in the group.

835
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 1: It's Brian's music, and it's Mike's poetry, and that all

836
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: combined I think makes the Beach Boys at their most

837
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: commercially successful era, which is what we all think of

838
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: them as really, I mean, you know, honesty. So I

839
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: think that was a really important contribution that he made

840
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: that I think doesn't get enough play. Kind of like

841
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: what I was saying earlier about how there's sort of

842
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: an overcompensation for praising Brian's more experimental stuff. I think

843
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: that you know that that that contribution to a mayor culture.

844
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: You can't underestimate Brian Wilson's contribution to popular music. You

845
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: know that that's a given. But I think Mike's contribution

846
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: to it too is also important. And also I think

847
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,479
Speaker 1: he was the front man that the Beach Boys needed.

848
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson has many things, he's not a front man.

849
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you what do you think? I

850
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: think that the Beach Boys wouldn't exist without Mike. Yeah,

851
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: when you were talking about Michael Love's lyrics, I was

852
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: just thinking about one of my favorite Mike Love lines,

853
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: and I think there's there's a lot of wisdom in

854
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: this line. And when he wrote here a mug, there

855
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: a mug, everybody chuggled up. Uh. Powerful statement from Mike Glove. No,

856
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 1: I mean, look, being a little snarky here, No, I

857
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: think you're right. I mean I have a theory about

858
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 1: My Glove that he actually invented the pop punk voice

859
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: that if you listen to a lot of pop punk

860
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: singers now that they sound nasally and they had, they

861
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: sort of had this affectation of sounding boyish even though

862
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: they're like in their forties and maybe even in their

863
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: fifties at this point. I think that descends from My Glove,

864
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: and it goes from My Glove. I think Joey Ramone

865
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: was influenced by My Glove and was taking his vocal

866
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: style and exaggerating it and taking it in a different direction.

867
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: And then from there, like Joey Ramon was almost like

868
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: the John the Baptist of that vocal style, like he

869
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: went out into the world and convinced many other people

870
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: to sing that way. And but that comes from My

871
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: Glove and it's it's a quintessentially American type of singing.

872
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: The other thing about My Glove, you know, I've taken

873
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 1: a lot of shots at My Glove. I do think

874
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: he's the devil I will. I think he is an

875
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: evil man, but I do kind of like him. I

876
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: kind of like his evilness because, um, I've interviewed My Glove.

877
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: I interviewed My Glove a long time ago. It is

878
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: probably about fifteen years ago, and I interviewed him and

879
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: I was and I was a Brian Wilson Loyal was

880
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 1: going into this interview and I was like, I'm going

881
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: to give it to him. I was going to talk

882
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: to him about like how he's just totally prostituted the

883
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 1: beach Boy's name and that he plays the same set

884
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: list every night and he's not digging into like the

885
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: obscure songs that all all of his hardcore fans Love

886
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: and I had all these questions ready to go, and

887
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: I get into the interview and I realized that, like,

888
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: first of all, Mike Love is like the most zen

889
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: sounding guy in the world. Like he barely talks about

890
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: a whisper and I don't even think he's like opening

891
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: his mouth very much. He's sort of like Eventula quest

892
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: for himself because he's just like, hey, man, like we

893
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: don't play the the songs from Sunflower because the crowds

894
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: aren't going to get into it, and I'm just trying

895
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: to please the people. And he's speaking like this, and

896
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: like I just found my dislike of him melt away. Uh,

897
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: at least in that moment. I think I got it

898
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: back when we got off the phone. But like when

899
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: we were on the phone, I was like, Oh, this guy,

900
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: he's like he has like you know, because like Satan

901
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: himself is a very charming man, and and and and

902
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: and Mike Love in in in phone conversation is a

903
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: charming guy. Oh yeah, I viewed him also, and I

904
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: had the exact same experience. I thought, because I was

905
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: in the camp that my Love was Antichrist. And on

906
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: the phone he was completely just charming and I and I,

907
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: you know, I was a part of me that that

908
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: holds onto that, and actually I I enjoyed my time

909
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: talking to He also butt dialed me afterwards, which was

910
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: like days later, which was really uh something that I

911
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: cherished and hold on to also well. And you know

912
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: the contrast with that is the Brian Wilson interview, which

913
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: I feel like, if you're a music journalist for any

914
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: period of time, the rite of passage is to do

915
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: a bad Brian Wilson interview. Because Brian Wilson, God bless him,

916
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: He's not very good in interview situations. He usually lasts

917
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: about six to seven minutes before he has to like

918
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: literally I think he has an injector seat in his

919
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: house where that will thrust him away from the telephone

920
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: and get him away. Um, it's extremely awkward to talk

921
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: to him. And yet whoever his handlers are, they always

922
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: make him extremely accessible to do interviews. So anyone out there,

923
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: if you want to interview Brian Wilson, just send an

924
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: email to like his publicist or manager and make up

925
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: a website name. You know, it doesn't have to even

926
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: be a real website. And I guarantee you you'll get

927
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: an interview with Brian Wilson, because his people will book

928
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: any interview, but just be prepared that he's going to

929
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: give one word answers the entire time, and it's going

930
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: to be kind of confused and and not terribly coherent

931
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: during that talk. Um yeah, I mean because you have

932
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: you talked to him. I talked to him twice and

933
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: I sort of knew because interview went back like a rodeo.

934
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: I I. You know, every profile with Brian Wilson for

935
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. When you read it, it's it

936
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: just always turns into a meta thing like I'm about

937
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 1: to interview Brian Wilson, and then I because it can't

938
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: be done in a traditional way because just the responses

939
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: he gives don't really lend himself to that. So the

940
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: first time I went it was in person and it

941
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: was kind of what you expected. It was difficult. The

942
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: the second time was on the phone and I he

943
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: actually stayed on longer than I had initially been told

944
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: I had time for and at the end he said,

945
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: what's your name again? I told him in Jordan, Jordan,

946
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: I really want to thank you. That was a really

947
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: enjoyable interview, and that I think between that and talking

948
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: to Paul McCartney or my twin, like just still, I'm

949
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: beaming right now, even just recalling it, it meant the

950
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: world to me because you feel bad because he looks

951
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: like he's not having a good time when you interview

952
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: him most of the time, and it's just and you're

953
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: just like, why why are we putting him through this?

954
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: I don't want to, you know, I love this guy

955
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: so much in all his music. I feel like I'm

956
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: anteonizing and this is awful. I want to end this.

957
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: But in that moment, that was really nice. So that

958
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: was really special, I think because I just I've learned

959
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: from my past mistakes. I kind of knew the stuff

960
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: that you like to talk about, so I just sort

961
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: of went there. But but you're right, he's he's a

962
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: challenging interview. He's probably the most challenging interview out there.

963
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: My experience was I interviewed him and John Cusack and

964
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: the basement of Club Metro in Chicago, and it was

965
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: for that movie where Brian Yeah, where John Cusack played

966
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: uh eighties Brian Wilson, which is as good as that

967
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: description sounds. By the way, Uh, it doesn't really work.

968
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: Paul Dano plays the sixties Wilson, and I think Paul

969
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: Dana is great. John Cusack is not entirely convincing, but

970
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: it's an interesting movie. But um I I told Brian

971
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: Wilson that I used to listen to Wonderful in high

972
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: school and uh, like and and feel sad and like

973
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 1: look out the window and cried tears. And he's like, oh,

974
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 1: that's great, man. And then he shook my hand and

975
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: walked away, which is probably an appropriate response really to

976
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: that story. So I was glad to have done it.

977
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, Beethoven shook my hand. I feel

978
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: I feel, I feel happy, but you know, not journalistically great,

979
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: but it was. It was a good experience. Um So,

980
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: if we have to talk about these two guys coming together,

981
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: you know, what is it that I guess is their

982
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: common ground? You know, I mean they've because I feel

983
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: like they've had periods like where they weren't at each

984
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: other's throats, where they weren't suing each other, and then

985
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: they kind of fall back into it and then it

986
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: seems like they're connected through both spite and genuine affection,

987
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: you know, for their entire lives, But like, what's the

988
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,479
Speaker 1: case I guess for them being together. I feel about

989
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: Mike Loves similar how I feel about Robbie Robertson a

990
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: way he talks about Levi on Helm. Whenever Mike talks

991
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: about Brian in interviews, there's this genuine affection that comes through.

992
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of profiles of Mike. When he

993
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: talks about Brian, he starts getting teary, and he just

994
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: talks about, you know, I just I just want to

995
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: write with my cousin. I just want to make hits

996
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: with my cousin. And you know, Okay, the fact that

997
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: he says I want to make hits with my cousin,

998
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: it's a little suspicious and it's kind of a strange

999
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: way to word that. But I think that there is

1000
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: a lot of genuine affection there, and it is sad

1001
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: that all this this business stuff, not to mention extreme

1002
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: amounts of familiar dysfunction, split these guys apart. But I

1003
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: think that their egos. Mike Love is hanging onto his ego.

1004
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: I think that there's a certain amount of ego there

1005
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: that prohibits them. Is a great line in um in

1006
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson's uh second memoir that came out in where

1007
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: he goes to he shows Mike a song that he's

1008
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: working on and said, Hey, Michel, what do you think

1009
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: of this? You want to work on this together? Mike

1010
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: thinks for a minute and goes, well, you know, I

1011
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: could make this song better, but I won't if we

1012
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: do something. I want to start from scratching. Which what

1013
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: a dick. He's such a dick. I mean, I mean

1014
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: the Robbie Robertson comparison, um, Robbie and Levin. I think

1015
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,240
Speaker 1: that that makes a lot of sense to me, because

1016
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: not for the reason that you're talking about, and also

1017
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: that you know, Robbie Robertson is so easy to vilify

1018
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: in the same way that Mike Love is easy to vilify,

1019
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: and and for a lot of you know, and that's

1020
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: due to that that's their own fault in a lot

1021
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: of ways. But I think the case that you can

1022
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: make for those guys is that you know, they've had

1023
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: to put up also with like a lot of dysfunctions

1024
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: from their partners. You know, even if like Levin and

1025
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: Brian are like the heart and soul of those bands,

1026
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: they're also like both sort of broken screw ups in

1027
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, like at least in their personal lives,

1028
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: because brilliant, they are creative, like you know, they're they're

1029
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 1: they're they're sort of a mess in their personal life.

1030
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: And I can imagine, like being in a band with

1031
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson would be difficult a lot of the time,

1032
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: especially if this is something you want to make your

1033
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: career and you know, as easy it is, as you know,

1034
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: you want to roll your eyes at like that don't

1035
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: funk with the formula thing. But it's like, if you're

1036
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: in this band that's successful, you don't want to work

1037
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: with the formula. You know, you do want to like

1038
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: keep making hits and and and having a career. And

1039
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: he wasn't wrong about pet Sounds and later smiled derailing

1040
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: the Beach Boys progress. I mean that actually did hurt

1041
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: their their their career in the in the short term.

1042
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: I mean, we look back on both of those as

1043
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: being great records, Like in the short term, at least

1044
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: my Mike my Glove was right. And um, I think

1045
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,280
Speaker 1: the idea that like, you know, Brian Wilson needed someone

1046
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: like Mike Love, you know, as big of an asshole,

1047
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 1: old as he is. He did communicate the genius of

1048
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson's music in a way that was palatable for

1049
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: the average person and allowed Brian Wilson's music to reach

1050
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: exponentially more people than if Brian Wilson had just been

1051
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: making you know, intellectual pocket symphonies that with lyrics that

1052
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: were you know, over the heads of the average person.

1053
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: So you know, you've got the genius and you've got

1054
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: the communicator, and they needed each other in order to

1055
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: both be Yeah, the examples I always point to our

1056
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: California Girls and Good Vibrations. I mean, two songs that

1057
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: really showcase both of their strengths you've got. I mean,

1058
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: the opening to California Girls is like an Aaron Copeland piece.

1059
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: I mean just it's it's gorgeous. I always whenever I

1060
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: hear it, I think of a sunrise. You see that

1061
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: first guitar being plucked. It sounds like to me, it

1062
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: sounds like a visual of a little ray of sun

1063
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: peeking over the horizon in southern California. Something. It just

1064
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: perfectly And then Mike comes in with his lyrics and

1065
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: it takes you to that place that you already here

1066
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: in your head up well, theast Cows girls are him

1067
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: bangy Have you ever seen have you ever seen? I

1068
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: think it was I forget there's some Beach Boys documentary

1069
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: that that was, like an official one. I think it

1070
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: was Endless Harmony where Brian sitting at the piano and

1071
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: with al Gredinos all I'll do the thing, and a'l

1072
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: pinches his nose and Brian starts singing like myke glove

1073
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: just like yeah, yeah, even even Brian Wilson can clown

1074
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: my glove. You know, it's like he'd come back to

1075
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: Earth and clown my glove. So so again it's it's

1076
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: good and evil. Brian Wilson's good, my glove is evil.

1077
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: But you know, good wouldn't seem good without evil, and

1078
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: evil wouldn't seem as evil without good. You need them both.

1079
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: And it's the end of the end of the beach

1080
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: Point and the devil can write good songs about root here.

1081
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: That's right, man, Chuggle Lug, baby, chuggle ug. That's where

1082
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: we leave you, folks. All right, that's another episode of Rivals. Everyone,

1083
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: thank you for listening going to the dark side with

1084
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: us in this episode. Uh, we look forward to talking

1085
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: about more rivals with you. Guys next week. All right,

1086
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: thanks everyone. Check out American Spring Rivals is a production

1087
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shaun Titone

1088
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor chi Con

1089
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.

1090
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe to leave

1091
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1092
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or ever

1093
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows