Speaker 1: Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about
Speaker 1: queer sex. Filter dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities.
Speaker 1: If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more
Speaker 1: offends your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer
Speaker 1: discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 2: Gabe.
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, Chris, it's Cruising Confession time. Do you have
Speaker 3: any kinks or fetishes?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Yes, I think I think everybody does, but I'm always
Speaker 1: confused about the difference between them. My understanding is like
Speaker 1: a kink defines like a very broad array of sexual
Speaker 1: interests that deviate from the norm or whatever that is.
Speaker 1: So by that standard, definitely and do some kinks. I'm
Speaker 1: a little more neibulous on the term fetish. Do you
Speaker 1: have a working definition for that?
Speaker 3: I generally describe fetish as as things or people or
Speaker 3: play is that really get you a rouse, turn you
Speaker 3: on on?
Speaker 1: So, like a fetish can be a kink. But yeah,
Speaker 1: all kinks are fetishes exactly. I feel like I'm taking
Speaker 1: an essayt test for queer sex.
Speaker 2: This is and that's why we're here.
Speaker 1: That's exactly why we're here to figure it out with you.
Speaker 1: I am so excited.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I have kinks, but I think everybody does.
Speaker 1: I'm like, who decides what's kinky? Like, growing up a
Speaker 1: CD was kinky. Acating was fully kinky, and we saw
Speaker 1: it on Girls, Yes, and then we saw it on
Speaker 1: Broad City. Yeah, and now the straight people are doing it,
Speaker 1: so maybe it's not kink anymore.
Speaker 3: I think they were always doing it, they just weren't
Speaker 3: talking about it. Okay, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 3: because like it's sex. You're right, we're going to discover things, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: how about you? Do you have any any kinks? I
Speaker 3: have a very long list of kinks and fetishes. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Whenever I get asked that question, I'm like, how do
Speaker 2: I answer this? You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Because like the people who are generally asking me the
Speaker 3: question aren't ready for the answer.
Speaker 1: Right, You're like, how long? How long do you have?
Speaker 1: Like is the zoom an hour long? No? We got
Speaker 1: a Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's like these twenty three year olds who were like
Speaker 3: who seeming like in a harness, They're like, oo, what
Speaker 3: are your king?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, sweetheart, buckle up.
Speaker 1: Buckle up. Coincidentally, one of my kinks is buckling up, so.
Speaker 2: Safety first. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we were talking to two radical King
Speaker 1: practitioners about how they came to know themselves and the
Speaker 1: benefits and risks involved in living their kinkiest lives. Yeah.
Speaker 3: In the process, we demystify what makes fetish such a
Speaker 3: potent piece of our sexualities.
Speaker 2: What's your secret kink.
Speaker 1: Or something you've always wanted to try? Don't worry, you
Speaker 1: can share. You are among friends. Welcome to Stiffy's Cruising Confessions.
Speaker 1: I am Gabe Goins.
Speaker 3: I'm Chris Patterson Rosso. Each week we explore the sublime
Speaker 3: world of queer sex, cruising and relationship.
Speaker 1: Will be talking to queer folks of all kinds, ask
Speaker 1: them questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations. A lot
Speaker 1: of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces.
Speaker 4: This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the
Speaker 4: library or the airport.
Speaker 5: I feel like everybody's gonna fuck a little harder here,
Speaker 5: So I haven't like the neighborhood slot and I took
Speaker 5: pride in that I was.
Speaker 6: So afraid but yet so intrigued.
Speaker 7: And the more I gave him, the more he could take.
Speaker 6: If you're having sex on Sniffy's, you already have a
Speaker 6: moral deficit.
Speaker 3: Our first guest is someone who gets woofed out wherever
Speaker 3: he goes. Chipper is a Brooklyn based handler and leatherman
Speaker 3: with multiple BDSM identities.
Speaker 1: Chipper hosts educational and social events in and around New
Speaker 1: York City that facilitate connections with the humans behind the
Speaker 1: put puts such as Pet Park and Cultured Pets. He's
Speaker 1: co producer of New York's premiere pet play events, Brooklyn
Speaker 1: Pet Play Weekend and Unleashed.
Speaker 3: He was awarded the title of Northeast Handler in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three and recently won the title International Trainer twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four at the International Peppy and Trainer Conference. He's
Speaker 3: a grateful drug addict with years of sobriety under his belt,
Speaker 3: and advocates for harm reduction and responsible alcohol and drug use,
Speaker 3: as well as other forms of recovery. Please welcome Chipper. Hey,
Speaker 3: how are you doing right?
Speaker 2: Hey? Where?
Speaker 1: And how does your king journey start?
Speaker 8: Well?
Speaker 5: I feel like they're like two coming out right Because
Speaker 5: like when I was younger, like my late teens, early twenties,
Speaker 5: I didn't relate to myself as a kinkster. But he
Speaker 5: was like one of those things that like, as I
Speaker 5: looked back, I was like she was into some shit.
Speaker 5: I've never identified as a monogamous person. I've always viewed
Speaker 5: my polyamory as a part of my identity more than
Speaker 5: just like a practice with someone, and so I never
Speaker 5: felt like constrained to that. But I also grew up
Speaker 5: in like a super conservative space, and one of my
Speaker 5: survival mechanisms was like freak.
Speaker 2: Them out, you know.
Speaker 5: I was like, I'm going to be loud, I'm going
Speaker 5: to be out there, I'm going to do what I want.
Speaker 5: And so I was like the neighborhood slot, you know,
Speaker 5: and I took pride in that, and I would like,
Speaker 5: you know, blow guys in the parking lots or like
Speaker 5: find whoever I could find.
Speaker 2: Like I got pride from like.
Speaker 5: Hooking up with people going to like their apartment and
Speaker 5: realizing how that'd sack with everyone else who also lived
Speaker 5: in the apartment and that kind of stuff true Brooklyn Night.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, just like check chack check check before.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: But I never viewed that is like something leading into
Speaker 5: like or being kink per se. I also didn't have
Speaker 5: the vocabulary or the understanding, you know. It was a
Speaker 5: super download culture, and so I was also kind of
Speaker 5: like introduced in like a bizarre way because it was
Speaker 5: down low. There's like a lot of secrecy and not
Speaker 5: a lot of conversation. It wasn't the healthiest like kink
Speaker 5: space to be in. In my late twenties, I was
Speaker 5: introduced to meth and that became like a huge factor
Speaker 5: of a lot of things I did. For the first time,
Speaker 5: I was like really high and fucked up one, you know,
Speaker 5: and so I was introduced to a lot of like
Speaker 5: water sports, fisting, a lot of power dynamics through that lens,
Speaker 5: and I just wanted to disassociate right Like it was
Speaker 5: like the acts with no substance. And so when I
Speaker 5: got sober, it completely shifted everything and I became more
Speaker 5: attracted to kink and the community aspects of and like
Speaker 5: the full kind of practice of it, because I felt
Speaker 5: so vulnerable as a sober person and I was like
Speaker 5: I didn't feel comfortable to being that person. I was
Speaker 5: in my twenties just putting myself in situations, you know.
Speaker 5: The first time I did math, I was in Switzerland
Speaker 5: having some drinks at a bar and this guy was like, Oh,
Speaker 5: you're cute. You want to come do this? And I
Speaker 5: was like yeah. And so I jump in a car
Speaker 5: with someone who I like met like five minutes before.
Speaker 5: You have me an hour and a half into the
Speaker 5: middle of Switzerland. Who into this like mansion that we
Speaker 5: show up to that no one is living in. Tells
Speaker 5: me to like go up to the second floor. I
Speaker 5: walk in and there's like an empty room with like
Speaker 5: a tarp covering the complete of the floor and a
Speaker 5: single plastic mattress in the middle. And I was like, fuck, yes,
Speaker 5: I was so ready for it. Yeah, that's like the
Speaker 5: kind of thinking I was in.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: I was so hungry for like experiences that went out
Speaker 5: that took me outside of myself. And then so getting
Speaker 5: sober is the opposite. Like I was looking for experience,
Speaker 5: it took me inside of myself, and I needed the
Speaker 5: safety and security. I needed the conversations. I needed the
Speaker 5: spiritual connection because so much of my king practice like sure,
Speaker 5: I get off, I like to have fun, I like
Speaker 5: to come, I like other people to come, but sometimes
Speaker 5: it's like not about that, like it's totally about like
Speaker 5: this kind of spiritual connection or intimate connection with someone else,
Speaker 5: and so that's been.
Speaker 2: Like a game changer for me.
Speaker 3: You know, what did it look like in the beginning
Speaker 3: of versus variety to sort of like engage in these
Speaker 3: king spaces sober? I know, for myself it took a
Speaker 3: lot of like conversations with people about like I don't know,
Speaker 3: negotiating what I will allow, what I won't allow, what
Speaker 3: spaces are safe for me, what or not safe for me?
Speaker 3: How do I get myself out of a situation that
Speaker 3: I may not want to be in right, and also
Speaker 3: just being comfortable to do the things right because like
Speaker 3: you so much of my kink starter while I was
Speaker 3: using math and like that's a total brain fuck, you know,
Speaker 3: And do I still like these things? Was a question
Speaker 3: I was having, you know, and like trying to find
Speaker 3: those people that are okay with me exploring these things
Speaker 3: and potentially having to pull out because I was like,
Speaker 3: you know what, this is too much?
Speaker 2: What was your experience with that?
Speaker 5: So I didn't have sex like the first six months,
Speaker 5: and then I was like it was very clear that
Speaker 5: was also not a winning strategy for me. Like people
Speaker 5: around me were like, please fuck someone immediately, but I
Speaker 5: didn't feel comfortable just going on the apps or going
Speaker 5: to like online spaces or just meeting people. I didn't
Speaker 5: want to be at bars, you know, and so like
Speaker 5: it became so much more limited, and I feel like
Speaker 5: going to places where I knew there'd be other sober
Speaker 5: people or engaging became safer for me. And I also
Speaker 5: wasn't sure what I could handle anymore. Like, you know, I,
Speaker 5: for example, I've not been a fisting bottom since I
Speaker 5: got sober, you know, I'm a fisting top, but it's
Speaker 5: just like something that's not come back for me, or
Speaker 5: maybe it was never a thing that I was actually
Speaker 5: into his bottom, you know, And so I had to
Speaker 5: like relearn that. And the best way to do is
Speaker 5: people who know what they're doing, right, And so it
Speaker 5: became really clear to me really quickly that the people
Speaker 5: at the Skills like help me navigate my own experiences
Speaker 5: with the people who were in the BDSM world. And
Speaker 5: so immediately I was like, ah, like these people like
Speaker 5: get it. And so I actually felt safer to explore
Speaker 5: my kink side a lot more than just like fucking
Speaker 5: or sacks. Outside of that, like it became much more integrated,
Speaker 5: and that's a big thing. What got me into puppy
Speaker 5: play because I feel like puppy play it's a very welcoming,
Speaker 5: easy space that doesn't follow a lot of the protocols
Speaker 5: that all the traditions do, and so it felt like
Speaker 5: easy to like navigate into and find community into, which
Speaker 5: gave me access to a lot of people who are
Speaker 5: doing really cool things.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious you were telling us a bit about
Speaker 1: entering the world of puppy play. When were you like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is a community or rather in affinity groups that
Speaker 1: I'm very interested in being a part of or participating with.
Speaker 5: I was at work am I doing my barista job
Speaker 5: in Brooklyn, as people do, and I met a pop
Speaker 5: and I was interested, and then he invited me to
Speaker 5: come hang out. And what attracted me to the whole
Speaker 5: thing immediately was like the sense of like playful brotherhoodness,
Speaker 5: Like I you know, it wasn't an accident that I
Speaker 5: ended up being an addict, Like my whole life is
Speaker 5: filled with like me escaping myself, me being awkward and
Speaker 5: young and not able to like handle the world as
Speaker 5: it was, And so it was like an I the
Speaker 5: connection of it was like rid is here to like
Speaker 5: pretend to be dogs with each other, you know, like
Speaker 5: there's really nothing. The whole point is that I don't
Speaker 5: have to worry about if this person likes me, or
Speaker 5: if I have to pay bills or if you know,
Speaker 5: I can put on a hood and kind of like
Speaker 5: block out the rest of the world and just like
Speaker 5: snuggle and cuddle and wrestle with some other people. And
Speaker 5: it was just so energizing, you know, to just be
Speaker 5: in this like freeing space. Like it was the first
Speaker 5: time I really felt like I gave myself permission to
Speaker 5: like let go of who I was and that I
Speaker 5: could be like something completely I made up, you know,
Speaker 5: And that's like so much of my journey and so
Speaker 5: many things they do is that like how can I
Speaker 5: give myself permission to have this ence and allow myself
Speaker 5: to enjoy it if I if I do enjoy it,
Speaker 5: because sometimes I don't always, But it was the first
Speaker 5: one I was just like, oh, this clicked.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: It's not like I'm only into pet play and that's
Speaker 5: the only thing I do. Like, there's so many things
Speaker 5: that cross over, like as meeting Rubber Pops and getting
Speaker 5: into like like power dynamics with then pop play, which
Speaker 5: can be like more soft on rather than hard depending
Speaker 5: everyone's different. I'm not going to speak on anyone's behalf,
Speaker 5: but people, there was just so much crossover that just
Speaker 5: kept me coming back, you know, and kept me interested
Speaker 5: in what the scenes could look like. Uh and and
Speaker 5: that just got me more knowledge, more integrated until suddenly,
Speaker 5: like a friend was like, you realize you're the inside,
Speaker 5: you know. I was like, oh, you know, like as
Speaker 5: I always envisioned myself as someone on the outside trying
Speaker 5: to get in, and they're like, no, actually, you're the
Speaker 5: person on the inside. And I just started doing events,
Speaker 5: you know, and that just led to one thing, led
Speaker 5: to the next thing, led to the next thing.
Speaker 2: How much does sex play a part in pet play? Yeah,
Speaker 2: it depends.
Speaker 5: What's interesting is that there's a pretty decent like a
Speaker 5: sexual community in the pop world that crosses often not
Speaker 5: always with like furries as well. Like there's a lot
Speaker 5: of shared interest there. Unleashed, which is the peblic party,
Speaker 5: is specifically about how many ways can we get you
Speaker 5: in the headspace and a shared experience. We actually make
Speaker 5: space and Unleashed for asexual pops until midnight, there's certain
Speaker 5: areas where you know you're not going to see genitals
Speaker 5: out where you know you're not going to see sex
Speaker 5: explicitly happening. And there are people who come for that
Speaker 5: hang out and want to socialize, be a puppy in
Speaker 5: the marsh, and then when midnight hits, they go, i'll
Speaker 5: see you later, thanks for the party, have a good one.
Speaker 5: And the people who want to have sex do And
Speaker 5: that can look in so many, so many different ways.
Speaker 5: Right did you say mash Yeah, mash like a like
Speaker 5: a mashpit. No, okay, that's yeah. This is the way
Speaker 5: I define a marsh is think of taking your dog
Speaker 5: to the dog park. So it's a space that's provided
Speaker 5: with mats, and people come with like their gear and
Speaker 5: they go into like dog headspace or whatever animal that
Speaker 5: person might be, and you play, you know, so you
Speaker 5: can play with a trainer like me, or you can
Speaker 5: play with other dogs, you play with toys. You can
Speaker 5: just sleep in the corner and do nothing, you know.
Speaker 1: I know. I was like, if if I went, I
Speaker 1: think that'd be me. Yeah, I'd be the sleepy puppy
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It's an opportunity to allow like the one and one
Speaker 5: play between like a trainer or a handler and a pet.
Speaker 5: Except in a social context.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like folks show up to these events
Speaker 1: with like a partner and a pre established dynamic or
Speaker 1: do you ever have like handlers and pups or pets
Speaker 1: meet at these events and kind of like navigate the
Speaker 1: powerplay dynamic with each other in real time, like.
Speaker 2: Showing up independently and right cool?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, both cool. But there's a shortage of
Speaker 5: handlers that gives a shortage of tops, you know.
Speaker 2: And I love this. Brooklyn is really down.
Speaker 1: Where are the doms at?
Speaker 2: I know I have become a verse by accident.
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, you're just so short, and I was like, fine,
Speaker 1: I'll do both, and here we are.
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course, I mean I love a short.
Speaker 1: Top, I know'd.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's a mix.
Speaker 5: Like some people have a pre established dynamic and they come,
Speaker 5: but a lot of people don't. There's a lot of
Speaker 5: straight dogs out there and a lot of people who
Speaker 5: are interested in what puppy play is. I think it's
Speaker 5: cute or like they like some of the light subdom
Speaker 5: potential that's in it, but they don't really know how
Speaker 5: to enter into it. So it's like a good opportunity
Speaker 5: to like see people meet people, to see what's going on,
Speaker 5: and depending on the space, like how far are they
Speaker 5: getting the negotiating that. Like, I've definitely had an experience
Speaker 5: of like fascination in Boston where I met a dog
Speaker 5: I didn't I didn't even see their face until like
Speaker 5: later in the night, like they were there, and I
Speaker 5: started like playing with them as a handler, and it
Speaker 5: was just like I got to go handler headspace, you know,
Speaker 5: where I was just like taking care and playing and
Speaker 5: giving commands and like just seeing the level of obedience
Speaker 5: and had to like improve their performance. And I was
Speaker 5: just like so into it. And I had not met
Speaker 5: that person prior to that, And so there's opportunities kind
Speaker 5: of come up in the space from the play side
Speaker 5: as well as like, well, all this horny is fun.
Speaker 1: What's so interesting to me is that like, as we're
Speaker 1: making room for people who are interested in kinks but
Speaker 1: not sex, there's also space for that, particularly with PEP play, right,
Speaker 1: that it is more about these dom sub dynamics as
Speaker 1: they manifest socially rather than like, oh, this is going
Speaker 1: to be something where I'm like penetrating you by the end,
Speaker 1: which maybe you are right, but the fact that the
Speaker 1: there's a spectrum of possibilities. There's really interesting for me
Speaker 1: because I always assumed I was like, oh, kinks are
Speaker 1: involved sex and sexual activity.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think pep play is like anything else.
Speaker 5: Like I mean there's a dom who I play with
Speaker 5: an impact who I am not sure he's ever penetrated me,
Speaker 5: you know, Like the scene is purely about the impact
Speaker 5: and the power. I mean to drink his piss.
Speaker 1: So that's but there's some exchange.
Speaker 5: But it's it's not about the penetration. It's not about
Speaker 5: the orgasm. It's like literally like what we're there to do,
Speaker 5: you know, And it's about the dynamic, what's happening, how
Speaker 5: we're present for each other, where we can take each
Speaker 5: other and pet plays no different than that, and so
Speaker 5: like yeah, like for me, like my idea of a
Speaker 5: treat is going to be my dick or my toes
Speaker 5: or my calm or my butt or some kind of
Speaker 5: sexual thing.
Speaker 2: That's me.
Speaker 5: I'm a very sexual person. But some people just want
Speaker 5: like Scooby snacks, you know, or some people want like
Speaker 5: a chew toy, And that's completely valid sufficient you know
Speaker 5: what I mean, it doesn't it's just like what anyone's
Speaker 5: seeking to gain from that experience and what gives them
Speaker 5: like satisfaction and joy, because like that's what's like. Pet
Speaker 5: play is so fun and silly, because it's like what
Speaker 5: would give you joy, Like what would make you be
Speaker 5: like good boy and be like fuck, yes, I wanted
Speaker 5: this so much. It's completely open, and it could be
Speaker 5: in distinct to the person or the pup or pet
Speaker 5: who wants it.
Speaker 1: I feel like pep play has become more visible for
Speaker 1: me recently. I don't know if that's a mean thing
Speaker 1: or if it's like a true phenomenon that more people
Speaker 1: are exploring it. But I do see a lot of
Speaker 1: pup masks in public, and obviously they're.
Speaker 2: Like at the gym truly yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Walking around Brooklyn, like at the Eagle.
Speaker 5: I think puppy has blown up so much for a
Speaker 5: few reasons. One is COVID, like people are locked up instapups,
Speaker 5: you know, became a thing. People are like, this is
Speaker 5: a cute visual aesthetic. I can get any color I
Speaker 5: want from a whole bunch of leather brands and be
Speaker 5: cute and fun and sexy, and that's valid, you know.
Speaker 5: And so I think that brought up in the public
Speaker 5: eye a lot more. In addition, it doesn't have the
Speaker 5: kind of stigmas that as I feel like the fetish
Speaker 5: world has like embraced inclusivity around race, gender sexuality, that
Speaker 5: you know, there's no if you're a boy, it's like
Speaker 5: a very specific thing. It's like a handbook, this is
Speaker 5: you be boy, and you can of course, you make
Speaker 5: it your own and you shift it. But with pop
Speaker 5: it's so much more open ended, and I think that
Speaker 5: a lot of people are attracted to the ability to
Speaker 5: have their own agency, even within a scene that might
Speaker 5: be pre arranged. That's why I'm like proud to be
Speaker 5: a part of the leather community, you know, because people
Speaker 5: are adapting and changing and with the times. I'm cautious
Speaker 5: sometimes when I use the word healing, because I think
Speaker 5: people need to go to therapy, people need to figure
Speaker 5: out their systems of recovery and whatever that means in
Speaker 5: many different ways.
Speaker 2: King should not be like your only go to.
Speaker 5: But kink does have a power to heal, and it
Speaker 5: has the power to like reenact and retransform like these
Speaker 5: narratives that we have with each other and ourselves and
Speaker 5: so like it's just cool shit.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Also, Chipper, thank you again.
Speaker 2: For joining us. This has been so much fun.
Speaker 1: Where can folks find you online if they want to
Speaker 1: come to Unleashed or any of your other events.
Speaker 5: The best way to find me personally is follow chipper
Speaker 5: that's on all of my things. Unleashed is Unleashed to
Speaker 5: be on Instagram. You can check it out there. We
Speaker 5: have another party I think August ninth, second Friday of August.
Speaker 5: It's going to be a fun time, good summer time.
Speaker 5: And then we're doing a beach trip the next day,
Speaker 5: actually to Gunnisan, which.
Speaker 2: Is gonna be Are you driving or taking the Faiy Fairy? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, so sorry ignorant question. But if you take your
Speaker 1: pet to the beach and it's a nude beach, do
Speaker 1: they keep the mask on or is it like a
Speaker 1: we're out of pet play gear for the day.
Speaker 5: Here's a little tidbit. To be a puppy or any
Speaker 5: kind of pet, you don't require anything except for what's
Speaker 5: up here.
Speaker 2: Okay, I like that.
Speaker 1: On that note, as we find our inner pups, we're
Speaker 1: gonna take a break when we come back. Film Maker
Speaker 1: journalists and kingster Donald Trorter Junior talks about his kink
Speaker 1: journey Daddy's and navigating kink spaces as a person of color.
Speaker 2: Moresnith these cruis and confessions.
Speaker 7: After the break, Shipperson, be a good cup, you makee
Speaker 7: good upissic. Oh yeah, Shipperson, jump through this hoop. I
Speaker 7: know that you can do it. Scritches and treats. Ah
Speaker 7: that scritches in streets. Scritches and treats.
Speaker 2: Scritches and treats.
Speaker 1: That was Scritches and Treats by Chris Conde, the Rapper Now.
Speaker 1: Our next guest is a self described leather boy with
Speaker 1: a passion for Daddy's one I can certainly share. Donald
Speaker 1: Shorter is a multidisciplinary artist whose work explores identity and
Speaker 1: seeks to answer the question can my body be free?
Speaker 1: His creative practice involves exploring leather culture, sex, and identity.
Speaker 3: Donald has danced with world renowned professional dance companies, and
Speaker 3: his film and performances have been presented all over the world.
Speaker 3: He's also a kink educator who teaches workshops to empower
Speaker 3: other leather boys like himself. Please welcome, My Good and
Speaker 3: Donald Shorta Jr.
Speaker 7: I love.
Speaker 1: Make this boy feel so special. It's truly our expertise here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you all for having me.
Speaker 3: Do you remember the first time you saw kinker feathers
Speaker 3: represented in the mainstream media.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think my obsession with leather started when I saw
Speaker 6: the Police Academy films, And there's a scene that happens
Speaker 6: in all of sort of the franchise where they go
Speaker 6: to the Blue Oyster, And in the Blue Oyster it
Speaker 6: is a gay bar full of guys in bluff which
Speaker 6: is like full on leather regalia, like mirror caps, like jackets,
Speaker 6: like vests, leather pants, boots, and they dance the tango. Yeah,
Speaker 6: it's like that's like the bit, right, And I just
Speaker 6: remember being a young kid and seeing that scene and
Speaker 6: like always like rewinding it and going back to it.
Speaker 6: And that sort of was the first time that I'd
Speaker 6: seen leather in film and media and became obsessed with
Speaker 6: and like just had an automatic attraction and interest to
Speaker 6: like what that world was.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Talk to me about the first time you
Speaker 2: went to a leather bar. What was that like?
Speaker 6: When I turned twenty one, I was still in college,
Speaker 6: but yet sort of a couple of years after, I
Speaker 6: moved to Philadelphia, and there is a leather bar in
Speaker 6: Philly called the bike stop once again. I just remember
Speaker 6: having sort of this like interest in sort of knowing
Speaker 6: what was inside of that bar. Was it gonna be
Speaker 6: like the Blue Oyster? And so I was so afraid
Speaker 6: but yet so intrigued. I didn't have gear, right, so
Speaker 6: I didn't feel like I could you know, fit in
Speaker 6: with sort of the leathermen that were there, who were
Speaker 6: sort of in full bluff or full gear. So yeah,
Speaker 6: I did have to sort of like have a lot
Speaker 6: of liquid courage to go into these spaces to only
Speaker 6: still feel like I just like couldn't fit in, you know.
Speaker 6: So there was just a lot of fear and anxiety
Speaker 6: around that, you know. But I would, you know, I
Speaker 6: would stick around and stay, you know, in my G
Speaker 6: and T shirt and hope that you know, a leather
Speaker 6: guy would talk to me.
Speaker 2: You did you see yourself reflected in that space? I didn't.
Speaker 6: I think now there are a lot of leather spaces
Speaker 6: for so many different folks who don't identify as CIS, white, gay,
Speaker 6: and male. You know, they're more inclusive leather spaces for
Speaker 6: other marginalized folks. But at the time, I didn't, you know,
Speaker 6: and I still think there's a lot of work to
Speaker 6: do around being able to create leather spaces for the
Speaker 6: non sise, white gay men.
Speaker 1: What's interesting You've talked about how the community, at least
Speaker 1: visibly from the outside, seemed predominantly white, and leather culture
Speaker 1: does involve a lot of regalia as you mentioned that
Speaker 1: harkens back to like classic police uniforms and sort of
Speaker 1: a kind of like almost militaristic vibe to it, right,
Speaker 1: which I think reads very differently to communities of color
Speaker 1: than it does white folks. And you've talked about how
Speaker 1: spaces for people of color in the leather scene have expanded.
Speaker 1: What was it like sort of navigating that early as
Speaker 1: a black person of predominantly white space and also seeing
Speaker 1: imagery from like law enforcement, Like, how did you sort
Speaker 1: of navigate that interest with your comfort?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I think that it wasn't until maybe probably about five
Speaker 6: to seven years ago when I really had mentorship and
Speaker 6: a lot of access to resources in terms of information
Speaker 6: and like I said, mentorship to really start thinking about
Speaker 6: what does it mean for me to be a queer
Speaker 6: person of color and accessing these communities. You know, I
Speaker 6: think so much of what we know to be police
Speaker 6: uniforms language, you know, in the BDSM, fetish, king, communities
Speaker 6: tools that are used for pain and or pleasure have
Speaker 6: a pretty sordid past around racism in the world and
Speaker 6: in this country, right, and so there's always that sense
Speaker 6: of navigating sort of that history and how I engage
Speaker 6: with it. The reason why it is that I'm doing
Speaker 6: how do I identify I am a submissive, I am
Speaker 6: a leather boy? Right, have to build relationships with dominance
Speaker 6: and or subs and or switches to be able to
Speaker 6: navigate and BDS and leather fetish and kink and ways
Speaker 6: that are safe saying and consensual. What are my boundaries
Speaker 6: for me? That does not include race play?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 6: That may be for someone else, but that doesn't that
Speaker 6: doesn't connect for me. But knowing that there is an
Speaker 6: element of you know, racism, brutality, right, oppression that's connected
Speaker 6: to this world, and how I engage with that is
Speaker 6: there's a there's an awesome book. I can't think of
Speaker 6: it right now, but one of the scholars in the
Speaker 6: book talks about sort of like, yes, there are people
Speaker 6: who see this as absolutely not that you know, people
Speaker 6: of color should not be engaging in leather fetish and
Speaker 6: king can be DSM. Her argument is sort of saying that,
Speaker 6: how do we honor the history of what this, you know,
Speaker 6: connects with, but how can we use these implements, these
Speaker 6: tools as tools of empowerment for what it is that
Speaker 6: we're seeking, catharsis release, connection, intimacy. So I have to
Speaker 6: make sure for me that I've acknowledged right that that
Speaker 6: is a part of it. But how can I connect
Speaker 6: with people in ways that are safe, staying and consensual, trust,
Speaker 6: honesty and communication that will respect my boundaries?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 6: So I always say that leather fetish and kink and BDSM,
Speaker 6: those experiences for me have been transformative, right like in
Speaker 6: a spiritual sense, you know, And they've allowed me to
Speaker 6: connect to myself and to someone else in ways that
Speaker 6: vanilla sex hasn't. I consistently have to sit with and
Speaker 6: answer those questions and then sort of having those experiences,
Speaker 6: I continue to find answers and more questions.
Speaker 1: We're like, we have many questions.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I love this.
Speaker 1: I do want to fall up really quickly and ask
Speaker 1: about lingo and sort of the vernacular surrounding the leather scene.
Speaker 1: You identify as a boy. Could you sort of unpack
Speaker 1: what that means in the context of the subdom play
Speaker 1: you're talking about and unpack the term for us a bit.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, I mean I think in the BDSM, leather
Speaker 6: fetish king communities, right, there's all of these ways in
Speaker 6: which we can identify dom sub switch, alpha, you know, daddy, sir, master, slave, boy,
Speaker 6: pop handler.
Speaker 2: Being a boy is.
Speaker 6: A category of submissive. That does mean that I am
Speaker 6: I have a dominant, and that dominant can be a ser,
Speaker 6: can be a daddy. It's an interpersonal relationship and sort
Speaker 6: of how I express my submission to that dominant is
Speaker 6: going to be up to myself in a dominant. So
Speaker 6: I can't sort of say that this is standard across
Speaker 6: the board. But there, as a boy, there is an
Speaker 6: act of submission or acts of submission that you would
Speaker 6: honor your dominant buy and those can include all different
Speaker 6: types of protocols that can be public and or private,
Speaker 6: and once again, those are negotiated with your dominant. There
Speaker 6: is no one way to be a boy, right, It's
Speaker 6: not based on it. You know, being a boy isn't
Speaker 6: about like age, race, section like, it's just you know,
Speaker 6: it's just how you identify and what being a boy
Speaker 6: means to me is going to be different from someone else,
Speaker 6: and so I think for me, once again, as a boy,
Speaker 6: I am looking for dominant. I mostly connect with daddy's
Speaker 6: and so in terms of dom sub relationships, I'm very
Speaker 6: much connected to the daddy boy dom sub relationship.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, do you have multiple partners or is there
Speaker 1: one daddy that you're with and what is he like
Speaker 1: if you're interested in sharing, like your dynamic some of
Speaker 1: the hardest things you've tried together.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is like, once again, these are interpersonal relationship,
Speaker 6: So what my daddy boy relationship looks like is going
Speaker 6: to be far different from what someone else is. I
Speaker 6: just want to sort of like put that out there
Speaker 6: and say that I think you know my daddy boy relationship.
Speaker 6: We don't live in the same city, so I think
Speaker 6: being able to maintain the relationship, we've had to find
Speaker 6: ways that we can still connect. So that's phone calls
Speaker 6: at certain points in the week, FaceTime calls, we'll see
Speaker 6: each other at different leather events that happen here in
Speaker 6: the country, and sort of being able to live out
Speaker 6: our daddy boy relationship in its fullest potential, and that
Speaker 6: does include both play and not play right just as
Speaker 6: much as we identify as daddy and boy. We're very
Speaker 6: much just two people, right, and so that's just an
Speaker 6: element of connection that's that's there and is important for
Speaker 6: us as well. The daddy boy relationship that I have
Speaker 6: once again has been one of the most profound relationships
Speaker 6: that I've had, and I have a short documentary called
Speaker 6: boys right, And you know, I'll just sort of say that, like,
Speaker 6: you know, yes, there is an element of uh, a
Speaker 6: lack of intimate relationship with my own biological father who
Speaker 6: passed away four years ago that I didn't have, right,
Speaker 6: and so being able to explore an intimate relationship with
Speaker 6: the dominant who I call daddy has been sort of
Speaker 6: very therapeutic for me and very healing. But once again,
Speaker 6: just as much as yes, he is my dominant who
Speaker 6: I call daddy, he is still a person who I
Speaker 6: care for in.
Speaker 2: Love deeply, you know.
Speaker 6: So it isn't just I'm not just fetishizing this person
Speaker 6: for that sake.
Speaker 3: I want to hear about the hottest scene that you've
Speaker 3: ever been involved in? Oh yeah, Oh do I know
Speaker 3: the story already promising?
Speaker 2: What am I willing to share? That is the question. No,
Speaker 2: I will say that I think for me.
Speaker 6: As I go along in my leather journey, I definitely
Speaker 6: do like impact play, so thanking, flogging, and I'm on
Speaker 6: both ends of the implement. I will definitely say that
Speaker 6: one of the one of the first moments where I
Speaker 6: went to a new place in my impact play journey
Speaker 6: was with was with Daddy, you know, and you know,
Speaker 6: there was a spanking scene that we'd done and sort
Speaker 6: of the intention was to to really go to a
Speaker 6: place I'd never been before. It was like, when we
Speaker 6: can't go anymore, let's keep going, you know. And I'd
Speaker 6: never I'd never, I'd never done this before, but like
Speaker 6: I just started crying, like I don't there.
Speaker 2: Was a c.
Speaker 1: I was like, we needed the context and I didn't
Speaker 1: know what that was.
Speaker 6: And and so I found that impact play is a
Speaker 6: form of catharsis. It's a form of release, and there's
Speaker 6: there's so much that I'm able to let go right
Speaker 6: And as I continue to go along in my leather journey,
Speaker 6: once again setting an intention for a scene, not every
Speaker 6: scene is that that is not the you know, And
Speaker 6: there's certain people that I won't go to that place with,
Speaker 6: but there are a couple of people who I will
Speaker 6: and it's it's just, yeah, it can get really intense.
Speaker 6: I will say that I've seen some very intense scenes
Speaker 6: of people who've been single tailed.
Speaker 2: And what is that.
Speaker 4: I'm just a single tail is a it's a it's
Speaker 4: a form of a whip that just sort of has
Speaker 4: a really a really long sort of tail that then
Speaker 4: has like a little sort of like not at the
Speaker 4: end of it.
Speaker 6: And you know, and so I've seen I've seen people.
Speaker 6: One of my mentors, that is his expertise, right, he
Speaker 6: is a single tale expert, and he was playing with
Speaker 6: another friend of ours and I remember watching this scene
Speaker 6: and uh, he sort of brought me over behind him.
Speaker 6: There's a guy who's standing on a Saint Andrew's cross, right,
Speaker 6: and this guy wanted to as the sub wanted to
Speaker 6: like push and it was not easy for a lot
Speaker 6: of people to watch. And so I remember sitting back
Speaker 6: and my mentor brought me over and like this guy's
Speaker 6: back was like hamburger me like blood everywhere. Trigger warning.
Speaker 1: I grew up Catholic that that happened once a year
Speaker 1: in mass all right, that was we had the reenactments.
Speaker 1: I feel like that might have been my introduction to
Speaker 1: the BDSM community. It was Catholicism. We love a good
Speaker 1: flock literature.
Speaker 6: And it was really intense to see but also really
Speaker 6: powerful to see that two people were able to connect
Speaker 6: in a way of I'm able to take you there,
Speaker 6: and I want you to take me there. And at
Speaker 6: a certain point in the scene, my mentor brought me
Speaker 6: over to the bottom and sort of said, like, this
Speaker 6: is where I'm aiming for on his back, and this
Speaker 6: is what is doing now. You know, who knows, maybe
Speaker 6: in seven to eight years I may be that person
Speaker 6: who is doing that. And I've had that one on
Speaker 6: one experience through that, right, I felt their power and
Speaker 6: energy exchange through that. It was unlike anything I'd ever
Speaker 6: experienced in my life. And it was so powerful and
Speaker 6: beautiful to be able to be in that space and
Speaker 6: that they let me be in that space. Many people
Speaker 6: kind of came around and saw what was happening and
Speaker 6: they couldn't take it. But once again, they both were
Speaker 6: consenting to go on that journey together and to know
Speaker 6: that they will be taken care of afterwards. Right, And
Speaker 6: that's a great point. Right, So as much of it
Speaker 6: is about that is always about consent and creating a
Speaker 6: container through which we say this is how, this is
Speaker 6: what we're going to navigate, this is where I want
Speaker 6: to go. This is a safe word that we can
Speaker 6: utilize so that if I reach a point for whatever,
Speaker 6: that we use this word and every think stops. It's over,
Speaker 6: no questions asked. And a part of them sort of
Speaker 6: the negotiation process is saying that we will have aftercare.
Speaker 6: Now what aftercare looks like for for people? Once again,
Speaker 6: these are interpersonal relationships. They're going to vary, right, so
Speaker 6: that there is aftercare.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate that. And also you walking us through this.
Speaker 1: I mean again, from the outside, what we get is
Speaker 1: like the blue oyster tango right y yeah, or you
Speaker 1: go into the egle and you see someone getting flogged
Speaker 1: in a corner, or even orders. I've been to straight
Speaker 1: bars in Florida where they're like people come in and
Speaker 1: they're like little cages and there's like a dancer that
Speaker 1: will flog you and everyone's like, ooh, I'm gonna get flogged. Right,
Speaker 1: It's like this idea that it's like the leather scene
Speaker 1: is something you can just jump into, and you can.
Speaker 1: But I think what you're talking about right when you
Speaker 1: start developing these dynamics and you start veering toward impact play.
Speaker 1: It's I think it's crucial for people to realize that
Speaker 1: there is a lot of boundary setting and conversations happened
Speaker 1: before and care that happens after.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's like navigating this oscillation between pain and pleasure really
Speaker 1: does take an emotional connection and a level of trust
Speaker 1: that I think those outside the community might not understand.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious, what is maybe the most important piece
Speaker 1: of advice you could give a young person who might
Speaker 1: be wanting to explore their kinks and is interested in
Speaker 1: the leathers scene.
Speaker 6: Yeah, especially I'm you know, I grew up at a
Speaker 6: time as a young gay man prior to the Internet existing, right,
Speaker 6: So being able to find communities you know, was really hard.
Speaker 6: You sort of had to be on the know, and
Speaker 6: if you did not fit a certain look right, then
Speaker 6: you weren't gaining access, right, especially being a leather person
Speaker 6: of color. So I think now there's all of these
Speaker 6: digital communities and spaces where people which people can access
Speaker 6: to find out or to connect, right, And I think
Speaker 6: for me, first things first, vet people like, yes, you know,
Speaker 6: have fun, right and your leather exploration, but that people right,
Speaker 6: don't just rush into wanting to do a scene with
Speaker 6: someone and you don't know this person. You don't know
Speaker 6: what their values are, you don't know what their interests are,
Speaker 6: you don't know what their intent is. Right, So VET
Speaker 6: people to make sure that they are safe and that
Speaker 6: you can once again play in ways that are safe,
Speaker 6: staying and consensual. Right, So automatically get references if you
Speaker 6: go on I don't know if I won't say any
Speaker 6: other website names, but if you go on to like,
Speaker 6: let's say a website that is primarily focused for BDSM,
Speaker 6: leather fetish and kink, and you see that that person
Speaker 6: doesn't have any friends and they're wanting X, Y and
Speaker 6: Z from you, and you know, so VET people, you know,
Speaker 6: I would say, find community of other people who have
Speaker 6: the lived experience, who are respectable within the community. So
Speaker 6: and then the third one is to have fun. You
Speaker 6: know that that there are I've learned many lessons and
Speaker 6: I continue to learn and grow as a leather person
Speaker 6: and maybe from setbacks or failures or mistakes, you know,
Speaker 6: you hope they don't cost you too much. But that's
Speaker 6: the way in which which I've been able to grow.
Speaker 6: But to have fun Donald.
Speaker 3: You're also an amazing filmmaker, and now you're starting to
Speaker 3: make film around your leather fetishing kink experience. Talk to
Speaker 3: me about those films and where can we find them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I a lot of my work as an artist
Speaker 6: is autobiographical, and so it's a great way for me
Speaker 6: to process the way in which I experienced the world.
Speaker 6: And so I ended up creating a short film called
Speaker 6: State of Mind, and it's I'm so blown away by
Speaker 6: sort of how successful it's been. It's really sort of
Speaker 6: a poetic visualization of how I experience BDSM. It is ceremony,
Speaker 6: it is ritual. What does it mean to sort of
Speaker 6: start a scene by having the dom place the collar on?
Speaker 6: How do you sort of position yourself to show loyalty,
Speaker 6: to show surrender, to show submission. And it was a risk,
Speaker 6: but it so well received, you know. And so right
Speaker 6: now it's on streaming online the Hump Film Festival. They
Speaker 6: have a streaming library, so it's there, and we're also
Speaker 6: in deals. We're also in the works for another licensing deal.
Speaker 6: In the very early stages of this film, and you
Speaker 6: and I were talking about it and you were staying
Speaker 6: on my couch. That's filming and you have showed me
Speaker 6: the first edit and I just remember thinking this is
Speaker 6: so beautiful and so intimate. Yeah, I think that for
Speaker 6: me because there is such an element of danger and
Speaker 6: risk and sort of these more sort of type of
Speaker 6: fringe play as we call it, where it's maybe breath
Speaker 6: control or maybe there you know, there is a flogg
Speaker 6: or there's impact there at bondage, right, Like, there's all
Speaker 6: these ways in which I think you have to extend
Speaker 6: care for the person that you're with, maybe more so
Speaker 6: than what you might do in a dark room.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 6: So when I'm connecting with someone, I think connection is
Speaker 6: is the most important word. I need to be able
Speaker 6: to trust you. I want to feel a connection, right
Speaker 6: because I am submitting to you. Maybe I don't have
Speaker 6: vision or maybe I can't hear, right, So I need
Speaker 6: to know that for wherever we go in the scene,
Speaker 6: that you will protect me and that we have that
Speaker 6: element of power exchange leather sex. To me, that's that
Speaker 6: was that sort of sense of connection was profound and
Speaker 6: new and something that I hadn't experienced in my vanilla
Speaker 6: sex life. And that's where this this radical sense of
Speaker 6: spiritual connection and transformation has taken place.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Donald.
Speaker 2: For having me, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: It's been such a pleasure to get to share this
Speaker 3: platform with you and hear more about your journey. And
Speaker 3: it's been really phenomenal to watch as a friend and
Speaker 3: someone I can consider family to sort of like watch
Speaker 3: you grow into the boy that you are today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, where can people find you?
Speaker 6: You can find me on Instagram at d O n
Speaker 6: x M men, don x men. You can find my
Speaker 6: work on the Tom of Finlin website. You can also
Speaker 6: find some of my work over at Drummer Magazine. There's
Speaker 6: a couple of new issues that are out that I'm
Speaker 6: a part of, And I was an artist in residence
Speaker 6: at the Tom of Finland Foundation this past fall and
Speaker 6: so I'm still connected with the foundation, so please go
Speaker 6: check them out. There's such a deep history and so
Speaker 6: much that's archived and so much new representation for the
Speaker 6: home eerotic arts that are happening in the world today.
Speaker 6: So you can check me out at over on those platforms.
Speaker 2: I love that. Fantastic Thank you again, Donald.
Speaker 8: I just want nice let's sets and so sweet and
Speaker 8: it's a city one more beyond I don't want to
Speaker 8: be a good bye anymore. I don't want to be
Speaker 8: a good bye anymore.
Speaker 7: I just want to next.
Speaker 8: So you just set send the outspeed and next.
Speaker 7: More bed.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a big anymore.
Speaker 3: You just heard I don't want to be a good
Speaker 3: boy anymore. By Vince the Alien. This episode has been
Speaker 3: super enlightening. Can you tell me something that you learned
Speaker 3: so much?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously I have friends in the
Speaker 1: leather scene, but I you know, I've known they've identified
Speaker 1: as like switches, bottoms, daddies boys, but I've never really
Speaker 1: kind of interrogated the dynamics and conversations that take place
Speaker 1: in establishing these roles and thinking about how much they switch, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, we're having this conversation when comes to tops
Speaker 1: and bottoms.
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't know, it depends on the day
Speaker 2: and my mood. Right.
Speaker 1: Obviously, there's a little more work in terms of cultivating
Speaker 1: these relationships, but I'm just so curious about how the language,
Speaker 1: both spoken and unspoken, continues to evolve and change on
Speaker 1: a personal level, on a community level.
Speaker 3: I'm want to thank our guest today, pup Chipper and
Speaker 3: my good friend Donald Shoulders Jr.
Speaker 1: Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is a production of the Outspoken podcast
Speaker 1: Network from iHeart Podcasts. It's directed by Adam Barron, produced
Speaker 1: by Stevie Williams and Cameron Femino, and executive produced by
Speaker 1: Eli Martin. Cruising Confessions is presented by Sniffy's, the ultimate
Speaker 1: map based cruising platform for gay, by and curious people
Speaker 1: ready to cruise. Check out the map at Sniffy's dot
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Speaker 7: Put job, put put Joe, put put Joe put up