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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there are no Girls on the Internet. What is

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Speaker 1: it about Taylor Swift? Whenever she does something, it almost

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what she actually did, because our reaction always

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Speaker 1: says more about us than it ever could about her.

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Speaker 1: Her fanbase is so massive that every little moment becomes

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Speaker 1: a mirror revealing all these cracks because Taylor Swift exists

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Speaker 1: at the crossroads of things like power, gender, class, race,

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Speaker 1: and visibility, and that means she is basically a magnet

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Speaker 1: for charged, messy, emotional, and sometimes even manipulated online discourse.

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Speaker 1: Case in point, after the release of her latest album,

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Speaker 1: The Life of a Showgirl, the Internet is asking, is

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift Seek's really a trad wife? You know, the

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Speaker 1: kind of woman who uses her platform to say that

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Speaker 1: real liberation means marriage and submission. But that question isn't

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Speaker 1: really about Taylor, It's about us and help pop culture, politics,

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Speaker 1: and patriarchy collide online now. I am no scholar of

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift's music. Honestly, gun to my head, I could

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Speaker 1: probably name five songs and I haven't heard her new album,

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Speaker 1: but even I could not escape this conversation online. So

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Speaker 1: I called up my friend Joe Piazza, host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Under the Influence and the author of the new

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Speaker 1: book Everyone Is Lying to You, which dives deep into

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Speaker 1: the culture of tradwives, to ask what exactly is a tradwife,

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Speaker 1: why does everyone suddenly think Taylor Swift is one? And

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Speaker 1: what does all of this say about marriage today?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I did actually write the book on

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Speaker 2: tradwife influencers. And it's so funny because I've also weirdly

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Speaker 2: become like America's leading expert on trodwives, Like I've been

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Speaker 2: interviewed in like the international press about chradwives at this point,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, I did not see this coming when

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Speaker 2: I've gotten economics degree in college, did not see it

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Speaker 2: coming at all. So one of the things I like

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Speaker 2: about your work is you kind of come at it

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Speaker 2: from this orientation of tradwives are essentially making tons of

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Speaker 2: money from lying about everything on the internet. They tell

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Speaker 2: women not to work while they themselves often are running thriving,

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Speaker 2: lucrative businesses. Why is it important for you to have

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Speaker 2: that orientation of like, Yo, these people are basically lying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and that's like the goal of everything that

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Speaker 2: I say about about the tradwives. And it's the lies

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Speaker 2: and the deception that really get to me because they're

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Speaker 2: pushing these messages and really influencing a lot of young

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Speaker 2: women saying, Hey, quit your job, It's okay to be

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Speaker 2: dependent on a man. A man should be the breadwinner

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Speaker 2: of the family.

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Speaker 1: Go off birth.

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Speaker 2: Control, have five kids, homestead, homeschool just like me. Look

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Speaker 2: how happy I am when really, these women are running

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Speaker 2: a multimillion dollar media business, making money off your attention span.

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Speaker 2: Usually they're the breadwinners in their families, and their husbands

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Speaker 2: are working for them. They have nannies, they have domestic staff,

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Speaker 2: they have like all of these things behind the scenes

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Speaker 2: that you're not seeing. And yet I talk to so

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Speaker 2: many young women these days that are like, why would

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Speaker 2: I climb the corporate ladder? Look how happy these child

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Speaker 2: wives are. I just want to quit my job and like,

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Speaker 2: live a soft life. And I'm like, they're not living

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Speaker 2: a soft life. Content creation is hard work and it

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Speaker 2: is labor, and they are making money and running a

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Speaker 2: business and pretending that they're not. I think that this

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Speaker 2: message is resonating with young women. Do you see it

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Speaker 2: resonating our women responding to this and saying, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: why would I want to work? This person has it

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Speaker 2: figured out. They've got a great life.

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Speaker 1: All they do is hang out with their kids and

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Speaker 1: baked bread and wear prairie dresses I could have.

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Speaker 2: That Is it working on these young women? It one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent is working, and and it's really insane, you know.

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Speaker 2: Some of like the best examples we have too are that,

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Speaker 2: you know, another part of messaging that we see in

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Speaker 2: a lot of tidwife accounts is you should go off

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Speaker 2: birth control. Birth control is dangerous. There's definitely a right

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Speaker 2: leaning pro natalist vibe going on. And I talk to

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Speaker 2: young women all the time who are like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: would never take birth control, and I'm like what They're like, Yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: I mean I saw this TikTok and I said, it's

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Speaker 2: going to make me infertile and give me cancer and

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Speaker 2: kill me. And I'm like, look, I didn't love the

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Speaker 2: pill in my twenties and thirties, and yet I loved

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Speaker 2: not getting pregnant.

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Speaker 1: By every douchebag that I dated.

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Speaker 2: So like, there are good and bad parts of it,

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Speaker 2: but that messaging is really resonating as is women are saying,

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Speaker 2: maybe I don't need to go to college, or if

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Speaker 2: I go to college, I'm just going to get my mrs.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just going to go to find a husband.

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Speaker 2: This level of influence is working on the generation that

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Speaker 2: is just coming out of their teens and in their

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Speaker 2: twenties right now, and also in women my age, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm forty five, who are burnt out from leaning in,

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Speaker 2: like it was exhausting trying to like be a girl

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Speaker 2: boss and have it all and do all the things

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Speaker 2: because society is not set up to support us. And

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Speaker 2: so we look at these images and think, wow, that

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Speaker 2: does seem easy, that does seem nice, But again, it's

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Speaker 2: all a fantasy. They're causlaying a kind of traditional America

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Speaker 2: that never really existed, or if it existed, it only

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Speaker 2: existed for like a very small sliver.

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Speaker 1: Of rich white people. It's true, these women are ultimately

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Speaker 1: selling a fantasy that does not really exist and never did,

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Speaker 1: because this idyllic life of comfort and bliss never really

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Speaker 1: existed for most of us. But that doesn't keep tradwise

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Speaker 1: from selling this lie, using a kernel of truth to

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Speaker 1: sell it. For instance, birth control. It's true birth control

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Speaker 1: can have side effects for some of us, so they

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Speaker 1: take that kernel of truth to the extreme that it's

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Speaker 1: better to use no birth control whatsoever and have kids

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Speaker 1: before you're really ready, or another one that doing wage

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Speaker 1: earning work outside the house is often hard and stressful,

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Speaker 1: and most of us that do are burnt the fuck

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Speaker 1: out and exhausted and putting up with a whole handful

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Speaker 1: of stuff that we'd rather at. Yes, if you can't

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Speaker 1: tell that is true. So the extreme alternative that trad

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Speaker 1: wives would offer is that getting married, bowing out of

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Speaker 1: the workforce, economic and civic life is the answer, even

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Speaker 1: though that is not even what these trad wife influencers

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Speaker 1: themselves are doing. They're really exploiting this like kernel of

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Speaker 1: truth and blowing it up and saying, so it will

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Speaker 1: be better if you just got married, had a bunch

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Speaker 1: of kids, and relied on that person for all of

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Speaker 1: your economic decision making exactly exactly I mean, And there's

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Speaker 1: a kernel of truth in all of it. And that's

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Speaker 1: those are the themes that work so well.

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Speaker 2: Again because like we are burnt out into watching these

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Speaker 2: like videos of sourdough or them running through a field

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Speaker 2: and gardening all day. Like one of my girlfriends, who's

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Speaker 2: a lawyer, said to me the other day, She's like,

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Speaker 2: I think I think I would really like just baking

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Speaker 2: bread all day.

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Speaker 1: And I asked him, like, have you ever baked bread?

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Speaker 1: And she's like no.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, do you like cleaning your kitchen after making

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Speaker 2: anything with flour? Because we never see that in the videos. No,

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Speaker 2: never see how messy a kitchen gets after baking bread,

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Speaker 2: and there is flour everywhere.

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Speaker 1: There's gonna be.

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Speaker 2: Flour, like in your hair, in your scalp, in your

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Speaker 2: kid's scalps, between your toes for weeks weeks, but we

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Speaker 2: never see that.

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Speaker 1: She's like, no, I don't know what I'm like that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you would like baking bread. I think

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Speaker 2: you like the idea of this just ease, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's what we're craving. We're craving ease, and that's

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Speaker 2: what they deliver in these videos.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think what they're really saying is like I

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Speaker 1: could use a fucking break, Like that's really I think

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Speaker 1: like at the heart of it, we're exhausted, we're burned out,

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Speaker 1: we're stressed, we're tired. Maybe you don't want to dedicate

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Speaker 1: your life to baking bread. Maybe you need a break,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you need institutional support systems to make all

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Speaker 1: of this a little less impossible.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. Maybe we just maybe we could use you know,

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Speaker 2: paid and subsidized childcare. Maybe we could use more time off, exactly, like,

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Speaker 2: we live in a society that is not cutting us

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Speaker 2: a break, that is not trying to make life easy

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Speaker 2: at all for women. In fact, it's making it harder

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Speaker 2: and harder on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we want.

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Speaker 2: We want this easy life. But we're very vulnerable because

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Speaker 2: we are anxious, we are burnt out, and that's why

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Speaker 2: these women can suck you in so easily. And then

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Speaker 2: they're all just selling you stuff. They are selling you

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Speaker 2: their fifty dollars high protein flour, They're selling you their

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Speaker 2: egg aprons and their courses on how to make money

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Speaker 2: online and be more like them.

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Speaker 1: You said earlier that you didn't necessarily think that this

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Speaker 1: is what you would be talking about with your economics degree,

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Speaker 1: But so much of this is an economy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the thing is it is an

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Speaker 2: economic story. It is a business story. When I first

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Speaker 2: started the under the Influence podcast, which is more than

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Speaker 2: five years ago, which is crazy to me, Wow.

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Speaker 1: And started covering influencers. What surprised me.

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Speaker 2: And again this five years ago, it was that we

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Speaker 2: were in the thick of the influencer economy, but it

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Speaker 2: was so much smaller than it is today. But it

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Speaker 2: was a multi billion dollar business run by women for women,

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Speaker 2: mostly ignored by the mainstream media because it was run

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Speaker 2: by women for women. And I've been to these mom

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Speaker 2: influencer conferences and I kind of satirize some of them,

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Speaker 2: and everyone is lying to you because the goal of

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Speaker 2: the book is it's a novel. It's a thriller. It's

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Speaker 2: pulpy and juicy. It is supposed to be a lot

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Speaker 2: of fun. But at the same time, there's so much

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Speaker 2: reporting that I've done that went into the book. So

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Speaker 2: I've been to these mom Influencing conferences and they are

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Speaker 2: a masterclass in business. Multimillion dollar deals are getting made

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Speaker 2: at these conferences. And also, because two things are true,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of women high on weed gummies.

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Speaker 1: So it is.

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Speaker 2: It is a masterclass in marketing and branding. And also

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Speaker 2: Mom spring Break.

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Speaker 1: If it wasn't for the lying to enrich yourself personally

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Speaker 1: part of that. That actually sounds like a pretty good

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Speaker 1: time to be totally, totally well.

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Speaker 2: And to be fair, I've got to say this, the

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Speaker 2: influencer economy, not everyone is a grifter, right, So like

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Speaker 2: the influencer economy is the new form of advertising and marketing,

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Speaker 2: it is where eyeballs are. As a person who sells

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Speaker 2: books for a living, and I say this all the time,

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Speaker 2: I could get a profile in a major magazine and

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Speaker 2: I have, or beyond a morning talk show and I have,

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Speaker 2: and I won't sell as many books as when an

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Speaker 2: influencer just shows it on their Instagram feed. That is

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Speaker 2: the world we're living in right now. And so it

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Speaker 2: is a completely lucrative business. And at the same time

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Speaker 2: you have a lot of people who are grifting you

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Speaker 2: and who are lying in order to capture your attention

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Speaker 2: and make money off of you.

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Speaker 1: Before journalists like Joe, who clocked the influencer space as

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Speaker 1: important early on, started looking deeply at what was happening

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Speaker 1: in these corners of the Internet. They were pretty much

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Speaker 1: ignored by the male dominated tech press, and that allowed

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Speaker 1: these spaces to do two things. I mass a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of power and influence and also refine the ability

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Speaker 1: to use that power and influence to expose women to

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Speaker 1: pretty dangerous political and social ideology. So you mentioned how this,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you first started leaning into this coverage

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Speaker 1: of what was going on with the influencer economy, it

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Speaker 1: was really ignored, like maybe it would be in a

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Speaker 1: in a style section or something, but certainly the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal at this point was not, you know, taking

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Speaker 1: a hard look at what was going on in these spaces.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that allowed for these spaces, that

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Speaker 1: them being overlooked in this way to kind of also

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Speaker 1: be used as vectors to push things like telling young

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Speaker 1: women not to be on birth control, or you know,

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Speaker 1: really being used as a pipeline to indoctrinate young women

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Speaker 1: into more odious kind of political or social ideology. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that's still the case. We do.

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Speaker 2: For the childwife accounts and the tradwives are short for

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Speaker 2: traditional wife. A lot of them were boosted during the

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Speaker 2: last election because they do push such right wing ideologies

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Speaker 2: of homesteading, homeschooling, strip women of their rights, strip women

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Speaker 2: of their agency. So we know that they truly did grow,

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Speaker 2: especially over the past four years, because they were being boosted,

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Speaker 2: and some of them were even created by Turning Point USA.

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Speaker 2: And I've been talking about this for a couple of

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Speaker 2: years now now about how Turning Point incubated influencers, and

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Speaker 2: they've gotten so much more attention, obviously after the murder

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Speaker 2: of Charlie Kirk recently. But he truly was a genius

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Speaker 2: when it came to branding these kinds of influencers.

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Speaker 1: And he used to say is like the left has Hollywood,

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Speaker 1: they have celebrities. We have to create our own celebrities,

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Speaker 1: and if we win the culture, we win the war.

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Speaker 1: And it's this kind of soft proselytization of doesn't this

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Speaker 1: look beautiful? It's nicer over here, all of you, all

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Speaker 1: of you with your feminism. You seem so angry all

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Speaker 1: the time. We're the party that is.

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Speaker 2: Fun and nice and easy breezy. And it worked to

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Speaker 2: sway a lot of young women. We talked too much

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Speaker 2: about how young men were swayed by like the podcast

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Speaker 2: bro Spear to switch parties. But I think that young

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Speaker 2: women have truly been influenced by Instagram.

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Speaker 1: I remember after Charlie Kirk was murdered, watching Erica Kirk

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Speaker 1: gave a speech at his funeral and seeing so much

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Speaker 1: chatter online that was like, Erica Kirk just destroyed the

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Speaker 1: feminist movement. And then when I looked into Erica Kirk's background,

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh, well, this is someone who is very educated.

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Speaker 1: Before she she got married in her thirties, you know,

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Speaker 1: before she was married, she you know, ran her own

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Speaker 1: business and had was a very educated young woman. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that she did destroy the feminist movement because

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Speaker 1: I think that from where I'm sitting, the feminist movement

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Speaker 1: is why she was able to have all of those

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Speaker 1: great accomplishments and make the kinds of choices that she

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Speaker 1: was allowed to make one hundred percent. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Women like Erica Kirk Alex Clark, who's another Turning Point

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Speaker 2: influencer who's incubated in the Turning Point Universe, which I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it's like the Marvel Universe, but for tradwives, the Turning

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Speaker 2: Point Cinematic Universe, the Turning Point Cinematic Universe coming soon

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Speaker 2: to a theater near you. They it's okay for some

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Speaker 2: women to benefit from all of the things that feminism

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Speaker 2: has given them, but they do want other women out

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Speaker 2: of the workforce. They do want other women to depend

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Speaker 2: on men as the breadwinners of their family and to

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Speaker 2: stay in the home and raise their children. And the

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Speaker 2: thing that I also like to say a lot is

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Speaker 2: tradwife is not a stay at home mom. A stay

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Speaker 2: at home mom is the CEO of their household. The

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Speaker 2: tradwafe themes are that you hand overall agency to your husband,

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Speaker 2: that you're not in control of your finances, You're really

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Speaker 2: not in control of your life. And that's what's so

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Speaker 2: dangerous to me, and that's what Eric Kirk is preaching.

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Speaker 2: It was very funny because I was doing an interview

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Speaker 2: with La republica Italian national newspaper, about the book everyone

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Speaker 2: is lying to, and the journalist was in Rome, but

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Speaker 2: she read the book while she was covering Charlie Kirk's funeral,

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Speaker 2: and like while she was watching Erica Kirk on stage,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, there were so many parallels to the

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Speaker 2: way in your book, and I'm like, I know, it's

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Speaker 2: it's creepy, but the fact is these women have multi

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Speaker 2: million follower accounts. Erica Kirk, I think, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: might be wrong, but she definitely had less than a

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Speaker 2: million followers prior to her husband being killed. I think

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Speaker 2: hat something around like three hundred and fifty thousand, and

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Speaker 2: last I checked, she was around six million.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's the like that like, that is power,

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Speaker 1: that is currency.

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Speaker 2: That well, it is power, and that is the thing,

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Speaker 2: and it's something that I think we have to pay

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Speaker 2: closer attention to again, because women are being convinced to

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Speaker 2: give up their agency, to give up their rights by

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Speaker 2: these kinds of accounts, or to check out of politics altogether,

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Speaker 2: which is equally as dangerous. And I also talk to

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Speaker 2: young women who say what I just said. They're like,

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Speaker 2: all of you feminists are so mad, and I'm like, well, yes,

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Speaker 2: we have damn good reason to be bad, right, But

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Speaker 2: just showing the things that feminism has done for us

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Speaker 2: does not make a beautiful Instagram reel.

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Speaker 1: Like I am ridiculously happy because.

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Speaker 2: I was able to be on birth control and not

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Speaker 2: have kids until I met the man that I had

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Speaker 2: my children with. I friendly believe your husband is your

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Speaker 2: glass ceiling, and I married the right man who supports

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Speaker 2: my career. I can be successful because I was able

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Speaker 2: to have my kids when I chose to, and also

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Speaker 2: equal pay and also access to jobs. Like all of

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Speaker 2: these feminist things created a beautiful life for me, but

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Speaker 2: that doesn't look great in an Instagram reel.

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Speaker 1: I've said this so many times for heterosexual women, especially

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Speaker 1: women who are ambitious or I have, you know, inclined

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Speaker 1: toward making something themselves or building something for themselves. You're

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Speaker 1: the person that you marry is either going to be

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Speaker 1: an anchor or a springboard, and there's really no in between.

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Speaker 1: And so it really is a very important choice who

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Speaker 1: you decide to marry. And in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: I think that for women, marriage can be kind of

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Speaker 1: a raw deal, and so it behooves us to not

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Speaker 1: be pushing women into doing it quickly or willy nilly,

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Speaker 1: or just to check the box. Really put some thought

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Speaker 1: of intention into who this person that you are anchoring

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Speaker 1: your life to, what they're about, and whether or not

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Speaker 1: even getting married at all is something that you actually

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Speaker 1: meaningfully want for your life. It should absolutely not be

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Speaker 1: something we just funnel young women to as a default.

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Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And the messaging in Chadweth accounts is get

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Speaker 1: married as soon as you can get married at eighteen

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Speaker 1: and start having babies before before you're able to take

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Speaker 1: that springboard onto you know what kind of life you want,

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Speaker 1: And again, maybe maybe your choice is to be ambitious

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Speaker 1: about being a mom and about being a wife also awesome. Like,

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Speaker 1: what feminism is about is having those options, having those choices,

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Speaker 1: having access to money and credit and the ability to

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Speaker 1: live the life that you're choosing. And what tradwives want

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Speaker 1: to do is take away those choices. So is Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift a tradwife? Joe and I get into that after

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Speaker 1: a quick break at her back earlier this year, after

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Speaker 1: being branded a childless, single cat lady in her thirties,

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Speaker 1: you know, the worst thing a woman can be. Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift announced her engagement to Travis Kelsey. On her new

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Speaker 1: album Life of a Showgirl. That shift is front and center.

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Speaker 1: She sings about how all she really wants, what would

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Speaker 1: truly make her happy, is to get married, have kids,

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Speaker 1: and settle into a home with a basketball hoop in

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Speaker 1: a driveway. Sure, she's a billionaire, so that home would

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Speaker 1: probably be a huge mansion. But still, and all of

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Speaker 1: this does sound pretty traditional. So is this Taylor Swift's

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Speaker 1: big white lady trad wife pivot? So the reason I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you was a criticism that I

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Speaker 1: keep seeing about Taylor Swift's new album, and I should

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Speaker 1: say I don't know a time about Taylor Swift. I

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Speaker 1: am not a Swift deep, but I keep seeing people say, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is a trad wife now because she's newly engaged.

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Speaker 1: Her new album seems to be about wanting to get

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Speaker 1: married and have kids and sort of fine enjoyment in

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Speaker 1: a domestic life. Now, I completely kind of understand and

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Speaker 1: unsympathetic to this feeling that, oh, you know, this woman

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Speaker 1: who was a public example of being a single woman

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Speaker 1: who a fabulous life then decides to get married. So like,

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Speaker 1: I genuinely do get it, but I don't necessarily feel

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Speaker 1: that making a record about wanting to get married and

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Speaker 1: have kids automatically makes someone a trad wife. Like a

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Speaker 1: lot of people saying online, what do you think folks

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Speaker 1: are missing about this conversation? They're missing so much. Just

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Speaker 1: because you.

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Speaker 2: Want to get married and have kids does not make

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Speaker 2: you any less of a feminist. It's so obscene and offensive.

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Speaker 2: She is a I think she's still thirty five, maybe

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Speaker 2: she's thirty six now, I don't know, But like she's

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Speaker 2: writing songs about her evolving desires and what she wants

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Speaker 2: out of the world. I mean, I'm a married woman

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Speaker 2: with three kids, and I'm like a witchy feminist right

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Speaker 2: out there, just like preaching and screaming from my soapbox

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Speaker 2: every day. And all she said was I'm excited to

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Speaker 2: get married and have kids with this wonderful freaking man

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Speaker 2: by the way, who supports the hell out of her career,

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Speaker 2: who promotes her every chance he gets.

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Speaker 1: I do not get it. I hate it so much.

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Speaker 1: It makes no sense to me. How do you think

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Speaker 1: we got to a place where simply wanting to be married,

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Speaker 1: or wanting to have kids, or opining about how this

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Speaker 1: might be something that would be make you kind of

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Speaker 1: got branded as being conservative. Well, because they were able

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Speaker 1: to capture it.

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Speaker 2: And the conservative branding is so good that they've been

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Speaker 2: able to call a lot of things quote theirs. They've

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Speaker 2: taken on femininity, masculinity, marriage, kids, like all of these

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Speaker 2: things they're claiming are part of their platforms because they've

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Speaker 2: been really really good at branding and promoting it. While

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Speaker 2: and I say this all the time, I'm like, the

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Speaker 2: left like can't brand itself for shit. To be honest,

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Speaker 2: Like the left is just like they have no idea

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Speaker 2: who they are what they want to be, where they

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Speaker 2: want to go, and there's a reason that we lost.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like we are just like not willing

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Speaker 2: to look at that and be really honest about it,

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Speaker 2: or to form a coalition of maybe opinions that do

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Speaker 2: not all agree with each other, in order to be

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Speaker 2: fighting for the greater good, which is, you know, to

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Speaker 2: have a country not fall into fascism. Okay, so we

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Speaker 2: can't really talk about our country's slide into fascism without

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Speaker 2: talking about marriage. Marriage, especially for white heterosexual women, has

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Speaker 2: historically been a structure that upholds and reinforces certain conservative

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Speaker 2: or patriarchal attitudes. While white women overall tend to favor

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Speaker 2: Democrats and national elections, the picture changes once you look

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Speaker 2: at marriage and education because married white women, particularly those

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Speaker 2: without college degrees, have consistently voted for Republicans, and now

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Speaker 2: as women's rights are being rolled back and threatened across

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Speaker 2: the country, it's that same voting block married white women

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Speaker 2: that is helping to usher those restrictions into power. You

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Speaker 2: really hit on why this is such a weird sticking

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Speaker 2: point for me, because Taylor Swift is getting married and

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Speaker 2: talking about how excited she is to be married.

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Speaker 1: Not all of her fans are white women, but she

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Speaker 1: is very popular with white women. I do think that,

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Speaker 1: especially for white straight women, structures like marriage can be

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Speaker 1: kind of politically dangerous married white women voting against their

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Speaker 1: own rights and things like that. But I do think

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Speaker 1: you're right that when we just simply give things over

434
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: to the right, like parenting, marriage, all of that that's

435
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 1: for them. I think it means that there'll be less

436
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: interrogation about what marriage actually means for folks and what

437
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: these how you actually do these things in systems and

438
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: structures that support you, right Like, I think it really

439
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: limits the conversation about what parenting and marriage can look

440
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: like and should look like. If you're just like, oh, well,

441
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: being married means that you're a Republican now, it kind

442
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,239
Speaker 1: of invites us not to do any actual interrogation. It

443
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: invites us.

444
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: Not to fix the problem, not to fix the problems

445
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,959
Speaker 2: with marriage, not to fix the problems with not caring

446
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 2: for parents in this country. And I think it's very

447
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 2: dangerous because marriage isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I will

448
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: say I do think that heterosexual marriage often fails women

449
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: because they're is an issue culturally with most men, you know,

450
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 2: not being raised to support women the way that they should,

451
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: the way that would create a more equal marriage, and

452
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: culturally we just like do not do it.

453
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: When I think about it all the time, I'm.

454
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 2: Raising a boy child and he sees me work my

455
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: ass off, he sees my husband support me working my

456
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: ass off. And hopefully this next generation that we're raising,

457
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: these men will be men who support women. Not all

458
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: of them, obviously, but a lot has to change in

459
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: the culture. And to do that, we have to embrace

460
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: the idea that there's married people are going to continue

461
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: to exist. We should just fix the institution of marriage

462
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 2: to be.

463
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: Better for women. I have to be real here that

464
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,719
Speaker 1: I am not someone who puts marriage or being married

465
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: on a pedestal, mostly because I think it can be

466
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: kind of a raw deal for women. And I think

467
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: for all the right wing talk trying to pressure and

468
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: fearmonger women into marriages and parenthood, shocker, those same Republicans

469
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: are also doing their damnedest to make marriage worse for

470
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: the very women they're trying to push into it. They're

471
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: stripping away the flexibility, freedoms, and support systems that make

472
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: marriage sustainable in the first place, take the efforts to

473
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: roll back no fault divorce laws that keeps women and

474
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: their kids trapped in bad or even unsafe marriages. And

475
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: while people love to frame attacks on abortion rights, reproductive health,

476
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: and our lack of paid leave as identity politics, the

477
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: truth is these are bread and butter economic issues. When

478
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: you have less control over when, whether and how you

479
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: have kids, you have less control over your household budget

480
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: and finances. And every cut or attack to an already

481
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: very fragile social safety net means fewer options for women,

482
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: especially the ones carrying the biggest load at home. So

483
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: if we keep seeding marriage and married women as the

484
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: rights territory to define marriage will keep looking like this,

485
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: or it will look worse, especially against this backdrop where

486
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: there are very real forces trying to make the institution

487
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: of marriage more harmful for women right now in very

488
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: specific and clear ways. Like if we just say, oh,

489
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: if you get want to get married, you are signing

490
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: up for all of this harmful stuff, good luck. I

491
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: think it really just ignores the problem and we don't

492
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: have to fix.

493
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 2: It, and it totally does, and it also alienates people.

494
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: That is the problem here. Like I've talked to so

495
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 2: many women who are very progressive who say to me like,

496
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 2: I feel like I don't have a party anymore because

497
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: I feel like the party has left me. I am

498
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 2: a suburban mom with kids who wants women to have

499
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: reproductive choice, but is there room for me in their tent?

500
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: And the other side will let anyone in their damn tent.

501
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: So Taylor Swift kind of responded and weighed into some

502
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: of this. So when fans were wondering if this was

503
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: going to be her last album because she was going

504
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: to quit when she got she said, that's a shockingly

505
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: offensive thing to say. Women don't get married so they

506
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: can quit their job. And I remember thinking, if she

507
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: were really a trad wife, she might have, you know,

508
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: upheld the lie. You know, if she might have had

509
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: something like, oh, the only job that matters for a

510
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: woman as being a wife and mother or something like that,

511
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: she might she might have downplayed the fact that she

512
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: is a working woman. But she didn't do that at all.

513
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: No, no, because she's not a trade wife. And it

514
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: was the best answer ever to call out that question.

515
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: It was a man who asked it, a BBC interviewer

516
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 2: who couched it as being like your fans are asking,

517
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: but it's like, no, really, this dude is asking her

518
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: if she wants to know if she's just gonna quit

519
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: her job. It was shockingly offensive. That is the answer

520
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: I now want to give, which I get asked all

521
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: the time when I'm on book tour. When I was

522
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 2: on book tour, for everyone is lying to like, who's

523
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: watching your kids? I wand be like, that is a

524
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: shockingly offensive question to ask their other fucking parent. Okay,

525
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 2: Like men never get asked that, And so no.

526
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: She's not a trad wife at all.

527
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: Again, it is theest thing that the Internet has come

528
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: up with in a year of the Internet coming up

529
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: with really dumb things.

530
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: I have this theory that we are all kind of

531
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: kind of stuck in a I don't know, a trauma

532
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: loop or something where women are being, as you said,

533
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: kind of told that we need to be married parents

534
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: to have full lives. On top of this like very

535
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: real rollback of our rights, and I think it has

536
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: created this dynamic that is very unhealthy where we're all

537
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: sort of hyper vigilant. And so when this heretofore single

538
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: childless woman living this great life gets engaged, I think

539
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: it's inviting us in a not healthy way to see

540
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: it as something that perhaps it is not, because we're

541
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: all in this healthscape where we have to be so

542
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: vigilant and so like hyper aware of everything all the time.

543
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and it truly is. And what I would

544
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 2: like people to focus more on is the man she chose.

545
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: And I think that is I think that is very interesting.

546
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: I truly do.

547
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: She dated some real assholes, okay, and had some really

548
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: rough relationships. This isn't a woman either, who has just

549
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: been perpetually single and then all of a sudden, besides

550
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: she wants to get married. There's no one eighty here.

551
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,959
Speaker 2: She has been like a serial dater since she's been

552
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: in the spotlight, since she's been a teenager and so

553
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: and yet the man that she chooses to settle down with,

554
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: to that she says she wants to have babies with,

555
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: is a man who supports women. And that's what we

556
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: should be focusing on. That's what we should be looking at.

557
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: That should be celebrated like that should that is something

558
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: we should want for all people that want it. To

559
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: find yourself a good partner who loves lifting you up.

560
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: I think that's part of this that.

561
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: I want a world where if you want to be

562
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: married or partnered, you have good options for that working

563
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: out well for you. And if you don't want to

564
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: be married, don't want to be partnered, If you want

565
00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: to be a single cat lady, if you want to

566
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: be polyamorous, like whatever it is that you want to

567
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: do that you feel supported to do that in a

568
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: healthy way that's going to fulfill you. And I just

569
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: don't like that we have boiled that down to oh,

570
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: in order to be a progressive woman, being a single,

571
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: childless cat lady is part of that. If that's not

572
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: genuinely what you want, like, we should be championing and

573
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: trying to build a world where people do have options

574
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: that align with the things that they want out of life.

575
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: I want you to have all the choices, literally, all

576
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: of the choices, all of the options. You know, we

577
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: are in this place where I think everyone feels it,

578
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: but for young women, especially where they are being bombarded

579
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: with so many conflicting messages online about who they are

580
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: meant to be, they what kind of life they are

581
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: meant to choose. Some of these things are benign, but

582
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: some of them really aren't. It's like that scene from

583
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: the book The Bell Jar, where she sees all these

584
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: different choices and outcomes for her life as figs on

585
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: a fig tree that she has to pick from. One

586
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: is marriage, one is being a famous writer, one is

587
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: traveling the world, and she's really stuck and can't choose

588
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: in all the figs wither and die on the tree.

589
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: Only in our scenario, some of these figs that young

590
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: women are being offered are also actually toxic or poison

591
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: and also the act of choosing one of the figs

592
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: itself has been hijacked and weaponized by bad actors. I

593
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: feel like we're living in the bell Jar, and I'm

594
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: just banging my head against the bell jar every day.

595
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: Right We're living in the bell Jar, We're living in

596
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: the beginning at the Handmaid's Tale. We're just we're it's

597
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: not a great world to be a woman right now.

598
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: But it's also I think that there is so much

599
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: virtue signaling saying, well, you have to believe in all

600
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: of this, you have to behave this way, you have

601
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: to speak like this like I said, or you're out

602
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: of our tent, which means that it feels like every

603
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: option is toxic because I'm not moving to the right

604
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: politically firm. I am a firm believer in progressive value,

605
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: and yet I'm not seeing a ton of candidates that

606
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: I think are going to fight for what I want.

607
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: We have to accept nuance and we have to start

608
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: giving people more grace we truly, truly do and expand

609
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: the tent. We have to be more welcoming instead of

610
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: less welcoming to people. Talk through these ideas.

611
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: Talk to women and say, look, why are you following

612
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: these child wife accounts? Like what is appealing about that?

613
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: Then really dissecting it. And that's what I do when

614
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: I speak to young women. So I went on book

615
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: tour this summer for everyone is lying to and we

616
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 2: went to places that were very conservative.

617
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: We did. We filled an entire theater in right outside Indianapolis.

618
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: It was gorgeous with young women who have had their

619
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: reproductive rights very recently taken away from them. And I

620
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: asked them, I like, what is appealing about these accounts

621
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: When they say, they're like, but it looks they make

622
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: they make life look so easy. They're like, Okay, let's

623
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: dissect that. What does an easy life mean?

624
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: It means access to a good job, It means access

625
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: to money. It means freedom, It means all of the

626
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: things that feminism has given you. Those are the things

627
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: that actually give your life ease. Let's talk about how

628
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: anxiety inducing it truly is to be dependent on a

629
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: man for all of your money. Like would you like

630
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: it if you had to ask your husband if you

631
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: wanted to go, like buy a new purse, or if

632
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: you had to run your grocery list by him? Is

633
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 2: that a thing that seems nice and easy, because that

634
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: is what is actually happening in a tidwives home.

635
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: And even when you look down the line, if your

636
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: husband turns out to be abusive, if he leaves you,

637
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: if he cheats on you, or he dies men die, yeah,

638
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: or yeah, if he becomes disabled or chronically ill and

639
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: you have to care for him, there are so many

640
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: things that could happen.

641
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: Or it gets laid off when he gets replaced by AI,

642
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: like all of these things.

643
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I wonder if party. It is just we're

644
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: living in a media criticism kind of crisis where those

645
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: you see some you could make I friend leebly. You

646
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: can make anything look shiny and nice on social media.

647
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: I have done it. I have taken pictures of things

648
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: experiences that I knew were shit, And with you get

649
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: the lighting and the filter just right, you could make

650
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: anybody look like, oh I want to I wish I

651
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: was there, and I wonder if like we have just

652
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: we have a generation that has a little bit of

653
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: a hard time peeking behind that curtain, and I want

654
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: them to.

655
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: That's it's really the point of the book is to

656
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: pull back the curtain on influencing, on trad wife influencing,

657
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: to say, Okay, what you're looking at is not real.

658
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 2: You're looking at someone creating a magazine. Essentially, these women,

659
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: a lot of them, are not even shooting the content

660
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: in their actual houses. A lot of influencers rent the

661
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: kitchens farms to do all of their content in in

662
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: a single day that they would shoot for them like

663
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: the entire month, changing outfits eleven times in a day

664
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: to make you think that it's different days. And then

665
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: they're posting their stuff. They have videographers, photographers, editors, and

666
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: like I said, in them behind the scenes, they have

667
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: nannies and house cleaners and people making this all look beautiful,

668
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: but it is no one's real life. And that's the

669
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: dangerous thing about social media is that we don't have

670
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: media literacy around it, and we think that we're looking

671
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: at people's real lives because we're looking at our neighbor,

672
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: like our neighbor is on the feed right, or like

673
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: our dentist or our kids teacher, but then also this influencer,

674
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: so you're like, well, that's my friend's life, so it

675
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: must be this influencer's real life.

676
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 1: But it's not. It's never not funny to me when

677
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: you talk to somebody who actually lives a rural farm lifestyle.

678
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: I actually have a lot of people in my life

679
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: who have lived on farms, grew up on farms, worked

680
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: on farms, own farms, and I will pack my phone

681
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: and show them these trad wife influencers and I'll ask,

682
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: is this a lifestyle that you recognize? Is this what

683
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: your life on the farm looks like? They'll say no.

684
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: When I lived on a farm, I was up at

685
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: five am doing backbreaking labor and I was covered in

686
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: blood and poop path at the time. It's like stolen

687
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: valor more after a quick break, let's get right back

688
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: into it. It might sound strange, but if you really

689
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: want to see how effective these tread wife influencers are

690
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: at spitting fantasies and tall tales. Just look at how

691
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: they talk about what it's like to raise chickens. They've

692
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: managed to turn the messy, smelly, and sometimes even painful

693
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,479
Speaker 1: reality of what it's like to live amongst hens into

694
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 1: some kind of a cozy, pastoral dream.

695
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

696
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: So influencing is very popular on social media. It's people

697
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: just posting pictures of chickens to their millions of followers,

698
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: and for some reason, they make it look so idyllic,

699
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: so lovely, such a I have friends that have have

700
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: been tricked into getting chickens because HE influencers make it

701
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: look so beautiful I have. I have both a HE

702
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 2: influencer and an aspiring HE influencer, and everyone is lying

703
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: to you. And at every book event someone's like, that's

704
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 2: not real, isn't and like, let me show you these

705
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 2: like millions of followers henfluencing accounts. But we watched our

706
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: friends chickens up here in the Caskills while she was

707
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 2: away for a few days. And there's nothing lovely about

708
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 2: chickens in real life, Like they were such a holes.

709
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: Uh.

710
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: My text Shaine with my husband is amazing as he

711
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: tried to get them back in their roost one night

712
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 2: and the text Shain is just I'm gonna need a net.

713
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 2: I need three more adults to come here. These chickens

714
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: aren't going anywhere. It was it was kind of them,

715
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: one of them, one of my kids, Like it was miserable.

716
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: But again it's something that you can make look really

717
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: beautiful online. When you were researching the book and putting

718
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: the book together, what are some was there anything that

719
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: shocked you where people wouldn't be because in reading the book,

720
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: I was shocked to learn how many of these women

721
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: are renting their farms, their house, batching their content. How

722
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: it's not real. They really do make you think this

723
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: is a slice of life from their like gorgeous life,

724
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: and it's just not. What other experiences did you have

725
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: while you were putting this book together and researching it

726
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: that might surprise people about the reality of what they're seeing. Yeah,

727
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,959
Speaker 1: So the book was so easy to write.

728
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 2: I wrote it in three months last summer because I

729
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: have been doing the Under the Influence podcast for five years,

730
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: so I had all of the reporting already done. I've

731
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: interviewed thousands of influencers. I've interviewed trad wife influencers, I've

732
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: interviewed former trod wives, and I think that people would

733
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 2: be surprised by a lot of things. I keep getting

734
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: asked all the time about it being a satire, and

735
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 2: it's really not. Almost everything in the book is very

736
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 2: true to life, and I kept trying to push the

737
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: boundaries and make it a little more bananas. So I

738
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: did make up this one storyline where an influencer really

739
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: wants to deal with pampers, but she doesn't want to

740
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: ruin her body, so she creates an AI baby and

741
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 2: a fake AI pregnancy baby bump, because honestly, one of

742
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: the reasons that these influencers have so many kids is

743
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: that Instagram and brands there's so much money in small

744
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: babies and pregnancy, and so they just like it's very

745
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: lucrative for them to keep popping out babies. So in

746
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: the book, this woman fakes a pregnancy and fakes a

747
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: baby with AI and I had a bunch of influencers

748
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: read it and they're like, oh, yes, like Stacey did that?

749
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: Like what, I'm like, I made this up.

750
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: This is supposed to be.

751
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 2: The most banana's detailed I put in this book. Like no, no, no,

752
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: Stacy totally did that for a pamburst yell.

753
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: There's no end to how people will push the boundaries

754
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: of what you think is happening to sell us shit

755
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: on Instagram. No, there's no end.

756
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: I mean one of my favorite things, I think this

757
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: one made it into the book too, is that that

758
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: last big hurricane to hit Florida, there was so much

759
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: like boosting people's accounts that were there that or reporting

760
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: from there that a lot of influencers pretended they were

761
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: in Florida with a green screen. And that's true for

762
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: some travel influencers as well, and some mom influencers that

763
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: if they see a certain place is trending, they'll just

764
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: completely photoshop themselves on like a vacation on the Amalfi Coast.

765
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: When you think about the advancements that we're seeing with AI,

766
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like the possibilities are endless with

767
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: what they can do. The possibilities are endless.

768
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: Instagram has already created a lot of AI influencers and

769
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: they got pushed back on them. But I do think

770
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 2: that we're going to see AI influencers really taking over

771
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: very soon because they don't have the messiness of real humans.

772
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: Are the human tread wife influencers that you talk to.

773
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: Are they worried about this? All influencers are worried about this?

774
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're all worried about the bottom falling out

775
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: once Once AI influencers become much easier for brands to

776
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: create and then manipulate. I have a sense that the

777
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: influencer economy is I mean, it's not waning, but I

778
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 2: just think people are sort of sick of it in

779
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 2: a kind of way. We all maybe get the sense

780
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: that we're not being sold reality.

781
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: I wonder are in it. How would you describe that

782
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: the climate right now for influencing.

783
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: I think people like us are sick of it, but

784
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: it is only getting bigger every single day, and it's

785
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: only they're getting more influential.

786
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: And I have this conversation with people a lot that

787
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: there are people who live in media like you and

788
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: I do. Right, Like, we've come up through traditional media.

789
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: I came up in newspapers and magazines and now podcasts.

790
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: You are an OG podcaster like I am. We've been

791
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: doing this forever.

792
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: So I think people that live in media are skeptical,

793
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 1: and then we think everyone's skeptical, but they're not. That's

794
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: probably so true. I often forget when you're mired in it,

795
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily realize how it's coming off. For like

796
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: normis who are not consumed with media and thinking about

797
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: it all the time and reading about it all the

798
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: time and making it all the time, it can be

799
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: I can can I can really forget what the experience

800
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: of consuming this kind of media casually is like for

801
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: other folks. Totally, totally, And I do too. And that

802
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: was one of the things that I wanted to show

803
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: in the book too, because the main character in the

804
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: book is a journalist, is a regular mainstream magazine journalist

805
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: who's seeing her career destroyed by social media. So I

806
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: wanted to share that perspective of a journalist is stepical

807
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: of this world, because I am also skeptical of this world.

808
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: And yet, and yet, yet, the brighter side of influencing

809
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: and why we see so many smart women doing it,

810
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: is that corporate America sucks for women. It is really

811
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: hard to be a mom or a caregiver or even

812
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: first and that just wants to take care of yourself

813
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: in a corporate job. And that's why we're seeing so

814
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: many women become entrepreneurs and a lot of that entrepreneurism

815
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: involves Instagram. I first got interested in influencers because I

816
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: was living in San Francisco and a lot of the

817
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: early influencers. One they were Mormon, because you know Mormon,

818
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: the Mormon Church does actually preach that you should be

819
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: journaling your life in a very public way in order

820
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: to share Mormon value. But they were also, like San Francisco,

821
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: former tech entrepreneurs because they left the businesses because they

822
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: weren't being supported once they had kids, and they became

823
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: influencers in order to have a better handle on their time.

824
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: And it goes back to this idea of you know,

825
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: pretending that this is all happenstance. Somebody who left a

826
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: high powered job in tech or marketing or media there

827
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: there they know how to curate a digital presence that

828
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: is specific, but then they do it in such a

829
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: way that is like, oh, this is just a snapshot

830
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: of my normal life. This is someone has happened to

831
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: have a camera on me making bread and looking fabulous.

832
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: My favorite example and this this is this happened eight

833
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: years ago when I was living in San Francisco and

834
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: I knew one of these early mom influencers, and I

835
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: used to have these like bonfire parties in our backyard

836
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: because I had no friends in San Francisco. So if

837
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: I saw another new mom on the street and like,

838
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: do you like beer and sausages and fire pits, come

839
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: of my house on Friday, and it was so much fun.

840
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: Like we made a lot of friends that way. But

841
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: one day I invited one of these mom influencers over.

842
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: She didn't speak to anyone, she was miserable and sitting

843
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: in the corner the whole time. She actually went up

844
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: into my kitchen to get the one glass that was

845
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: like photo friendly. It's like an old mason jar. I

846
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: we were using it as a drinking cup, but she

847
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: decided to she put her own little striped paper straw

848
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: into it and then took a picture of it in

849
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: front of the bonfire that looked beautiful and posted like

850
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: had such a gorgeous time to my good friend author

851
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 1: Jopiafza's house. I'm like, you were miserable, you didn't speak

852
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: to anyone, and yet you completely manipulated this photo to

853
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: look a certain astet And that was one of my

854
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 1: AHA moments of oh my god, everyone is lying to

855
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: Is that why you wanted to write the book? To

856
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: to just peel back the curtain and say, hey, they're

857
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: all liars. You know, I didn't want to write the

858
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: book for a long time. The book didn't come to

859
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: me until very recently. I wanted to do the podcast

860
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: to feel back to curtain. Now there's always the goal

861
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 1: of the podcast, but then the podcast became a lot

862
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: more nuanced because the world of influencing is nuanced, because

863
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: the world of women is nuanced. I wanted to write

864
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: the book when I saw the rise of the trad

865
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: waves because that's what I thought was just so damn dangerous.

866
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: So I guess the big question in all of this

867
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: is how do we move through our social media landscape

868
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: in a way that allows us to cut through all

869
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: of these lies, lies about marriage, lies about tradwives, so

870
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: we don't get stuck feeling as if that is an

871
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: actual truth or reality. And honestly, to like, you really

872
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: have to remind yourself on a daily basis that this

873
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: isn't real.

874
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: But this is no one's reality. It's not even your

875
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 2: neighbor's reality. Because even if you're not an influencer online,

876
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: everyone is choosing a lovely filter and also choosing what

877
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: to post. You didn't see their kid tanswering this morning,

878
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: or like the knockdown fight that they had with their

879
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: husband last night.

880
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: And so you.

881
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 2: Really have to look at it in the same way

882
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: as if you were looking at celebrities in like U

883
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: s Weeekler People magazine. You know it's not their real lives,

884
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: or you know that it is like life but enhanced.

885
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: And the goal of the book is really to try

886
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: to eliminate that shame and guilt that so many women

887
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 2: feel when we're scrolling Instagrams or rolling whatever our social

888
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: media drug of choices, because it is a drug, and

889
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: these platforms are designed to keep us coming back, to

890
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 2: keep us addicted, and to keep us feeling anxious and vulnerable,

891
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: because when we're anxious and vulnerable, we buy things.

892
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: But here's the good news. You can change your algorithm.

893
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: And so I have been so proactive in that I

894
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: don't follow any news organizations anymore on my phone because

895
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: that's not how I want to get my news. I

896
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: want to get my news separately from this thing in

897
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: my hand. I also unfollowed any account that makes me

898
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: feel bad or guilt or shame, but I started liking

899
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: and sharing things that I do want to see on

900
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: social media which was mostly otters holding hands and fat bears,

901
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: and now my feed is a lot of otters holding

902
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: hands and fat bears and gay DAGs. These are things

903
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: that I like. And videos of Attachus finch Zet, the

904
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: sexy back oh with the glasses, Absolutely the glasses when

905
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: he's like in the jail and it really works. I

906
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: love that I know exactly what you're fucking talking about.

907
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 3: I know, I know, Like that's the kind that's the

908
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 3: kind of content I want to open my scroll and

909
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 3: that's what I want, Like, I do not want to

910
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: look at some woman's fake picture perfect life or fake

911
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 3: picture perfect kitchen or someone telling me to bake my

912
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 3: cinnamon toast crunch from scratch, because I'll tell you I

913
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,479
Speaker 3: tried to bake Nara Smith's cinnamon toast crunch from.

914
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: Scratch that she posted on her TikToker or Instagram when

915
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: I was doing a live segment for Fox promoting everyone

916
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: is Lying to and it did not work. It took

917
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: four hours. My kitchen was so messy. My kid put

918
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: it in his mouth and it's spit it on the floor.

919
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: I was like, where's the real simon toast crunch time

920
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,439
Speaker 1: well spent well. I do think that your point of

921
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think that, especially for women, tech companies

922
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: are really exploiting us and taking advantage of us. And

923
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: I like that you saying, listen, did divest from content

924
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: that makes you feel bad about yourself? Divest from content

925
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: that makes you feel shame because they have a financial

926
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: incentive in making you feel shamed or anxious so that

927
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: you buy things and you can curate a more positive

928
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: social media and digital experience for yourself. You do not

929
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 1: have to succumb to that. You do not have to.

930
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: Succumb to that. And there are certain accounts that I love, Like,

931
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 2: I love design, I love looking into people's houses.

932
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: But I'm not gonna feel guilt and shame about like

933
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: them having a more beautiful house than I am, because

934
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: I know they're sponsored by freaking Wesdalm or Pottery Barn

935
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: or whatever, right, and or I know that they had

936
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: like a step designer help them make this like beautiful

937
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: tablescape of grape some skewers for their kids' birthday party,

938
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: Like they didn't just do this on their own. Uh.

939
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: And so when I know that, I can still kind

940
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: of enjoy the content and be like, oh that is

941
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: that is that is pretty?

942
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: I do like that, right, but I don't want to

943
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: make me feel like guilt or shame. We shouldn't be

944
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: feeling guilt or shame about our choices because at the

945
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 1: end of the day, it isn't the algorithm that gets

946
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: to decide who you are. You do got a story

947
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to

948
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: say hi. You can reach us at Hello at tengody

949
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode

950
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the

951
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: Internet was created by me bridget Toad. It's a production

952
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,760
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.

953
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado

954
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Toad. If

955
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow rad and't review us

956
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out

957
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.