WEBVTT - At The End of Hope: Self-Immolation In Tunisia and China 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.000 Alz Media. 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:09.119 Everyone. Robert Evans here back to introduced. It could happen 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.800 here Part two of my discussion with Mia Wong of 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:17.040 the history of self immolation protests. We'll be starting with 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.840 Tunisia in this one and then moving on from there, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.239 so please buckle up and listen in. But I will 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.520 move us on to talking about Tunisia, which is the 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.880 last place we will talk about self immolation protest. 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.280 Oh, I want to end. I guess a bit. I 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.640 want to end after you talk about Tunisia with one 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.760 in China. That kind of worked, Okay, well, that'll be nice. 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.440 So there was a you know, Tunisia existed for most 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:51.600 of the twenty first century under a dictator. This state 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.920 of affairs changed for unfortunately a fairly limited period of time. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:00.040 On December seventeenth, twenty ten, when a young man and 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:04.240 he was twenty six, Mohammed was Zizi, went out to 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:09.039 sell fruit. And you know, Mohammed lived in a very 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:13.000 poor region, a very poor part of Tunisia, the city 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.360 of cd Boozid. It's about one hundred miles south of 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.840 tunis which is the capital. And like a lot of people, 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.360 you know, in that part of the world, it is 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.200 not uncommon, particularly for young men, because unemployment is so high, 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.959 for young men to kind of make their living doing 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.640 a mix of odd jobs and like odd vending, right 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:33.720 where you're just kind of like selling whatever you can 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.840 get your hands on and think that you can make 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.560 a profit on because there's there's not jobs in the 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:43.920 traditional sense, and because political corruption was so horrific in 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:45.480 the state at that point in time. It's one of 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.120 those things where most everybody who's out there selling shit 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.880 on the street is breaking the law by doing it, right, 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:52.920 because you can't get the permit, because the permit is 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.200 basically a bribe, and you can't afford the bribe, right, 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:57.960 That's how a lot of this stuff works. So, you know, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.480 Mohammed kind of prior to this, he had he had 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.200 been his friends. When you read interviews with people who 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.000 knew him, he was always like one of these guys 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.920 who was like really upbeat and funny. His nickname basically 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:09.399 meant like funny. 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.880 Man in town. And this had started to change, like 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.240 friends noticed like a couple of years before you know, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.440 twenty ten, when he's in hits his mid twenties and 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.080 starts getting into his late twenties that he's like, it 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.600 is impossible to get by as a young man. There 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.519 are no jobs for us, there's no future. I don't 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.680 feel at all like I have no nothing to be 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.280 hopeful for. Right. I think a lot of people can 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.880 understand empathized with where he was coming from. So he 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.760 goes out to self fruit and this municipal inspector fight 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.919 a Humdi sees him, realizes he doesn't have a permit 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.560 and takes his shit right, and there are accounts that 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.680 he like hits him too, basically is like what the 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:53.280 fuck is wrong with you? You're not paying your god 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.079 damn bribe and like smacks him around. So this is 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.640 kind of the breaking point for Easy. He goes to 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:01.960 the police stationed because he's got like this scale that 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.200 he's using to weigh out fruit and stuff that he 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.640 wants to get back it had been confiscated. He like 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.760 can't work without it, and they tell him like, fuck you, 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.080 you're not getting shit back. So he says, like, I 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:13.959 want to meet with the governor and like plead my 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.080 case to the guy in charge, and they're like, fuck you, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.040 the governor doesn't want to see you. So at about 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.239 eleven thirty am. He takes his cart outside of the 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.320 governor's office. He pours I think lighter fluid something flammable 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:31.240 over his head and he lights himself on fire. His 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.480 cousin gets a call. Ali was easy gets a call 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.000 I guess from someone who was nearby and knew them 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.840 both and was like, Mohammad just lit himself on fire 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.120 in front of the governor's office, and Ali runs there, 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.720 sprints over to the governor's office with his smartphone and 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.160 he gets there in time to record his cousin's body 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.040 being taken into an ambulance. Protests start up after this, 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.520 almost immediately people take to the street. I think it's 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.200 just everyone is living under the same regime. They're living 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.920 under all of these like fucking corrupt ass officials. Everyone 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:04.480 pieces together this. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:06.880 Yeah, and it's also it's worth mentioning this is also 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.800 a period of massive increases food prices, yes, which are 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.600 one of the big Like you if you want, if 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.279 you want your protest to work, like spark plus rising 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.440 food prices, great way to get it to happen. 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:24.560 Yes, so you know the spark catches fire, Protests start 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.800 up and they do not calm down. Part of why 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.320 they don't calm down. Is alizz Easy stays out in 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.279 the street. He uploads footage of his cousin's body to Facebook, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:35.719 and he takes footage of the protests too, and he 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.760 just starts sending shit to Al Jazeera. Right, So this this, 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:40.920 all of this footage he's taking like winds up on 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.640 television that evening, and by the next day other cities 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.960 in Tunisia are are holding protests. And this is the 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.200 kind of thing where it's like, you know, we all 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.560 saw this, you know, obviously with a different cause in 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.719 twenty twenty. Sometimes something happens that's so horrible that the 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.400 whole country takes to the streets. And that's what happens 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.919 in Tunisia. So the president at the time, basically a dictator, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.760 Zeen l Abadin beIN Ali, does the normal dictator thing. 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.000 He sends out and non dictators, right, we do it 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.039 here too. Yeah, he sends the cops out to beat 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.240 the shit out of everybody. Right, But he's also he's 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.160 you talked in when we were talking about Vietnam about 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.080 like the playbook and they didn't quite have it down. 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.120 Part of the playbook is down because in addition to 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.039 sending the cops out to beat the shit out of people. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.359 He visits Wazizi in the hospital because he lingers for 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.320 a while, right, And he also has the officer the 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.040 guy who slapped Wasizi arrested. You know, he's kind of 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.440 desperately trying like maybe this will call him everybody down. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.760 It does not, was eas He dies in the hospital 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.880 a couple of days later, and the protests, which are 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.440 known now as the Jasmine Revolution. It takes about a month, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.480 but they force ben Ali to flee the country for 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.960 Saudi Arabia and you know, successfully bring an end to 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:56.400 his regime and the return of a democratic system. There 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.880 are functional elections for a while in Tunisia. They gain 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.640 a significant amount of like political freedom, Like there are 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.719 some really significant inroads made in terms of like civil 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:11.640 rights during this period immediately after the Jasmine Revolution. But 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:17.279 things also don't get better, at least not enough. 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:17.839 Right. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.600 This is generally seen Tunisia as the start of the 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.280 Arab Spring, and if you know anything about the rest 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.120 of the Arab Spring, this was also seen as like 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.600 kind of the successful case, right, Like shit didn't work 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:33.599 out very well in Syria or in Egypt, but like, yeah, 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.440 bah Rain. But here they got rid of the dictator 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.640 and they gained a lot of civil rights, and that's great. 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.080 The problem is that the other issues, the high food prices, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.680 the fact that unemployment is at a night maarish level, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.440 the fact that corruption was a hideous problem in Tunisia. 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.040 This doesn't just go away, right, because it's deeper than 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.800 the dictator. The culture. Whenever you have a culture of 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.120 corruption like this, which is by the way, it's not 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:58.400 just the Middle East that has to deal with this, 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.320 but if you've spent time in the Middle East, one 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.600 of the things that is really depressing is how massive 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.680 and absolutely different, by the way, from the kind of 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.920 corruption that we have in the West, it is over there. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.040 The degree to which and you start to care about 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:14.920 this not because you're getting fucked over as a tourist, 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:16.960 because you really don't notice it much as a tourist. 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.080 It's when you make friends in that country and you 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.040 talk to them about, like, how many different people are 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.520 constantly taking a little bit from them, right, and often 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.960 not a little bit, like the degree to which regular 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.920 people suffer because every single person who is quote unquote 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.840 a government official is just soliciting for bribes is that's 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.960 so much deeper than any one guy in charge. Right, 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.520 That's something you can't just revolt your way out of him. Yeah. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.920 Like one of my professors in college, I don't know 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.280 if you have actually wrote about it, but he's okay, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.040 long story, but he lived in Egypt for a long 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:52.920 time and one of the things he would talk about is, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.960 like that is the concept of like the oddly powerful bureaucrat. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.160 So like the history was like like the the the 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.760 guy who sells you tickets at like the train station 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.520 in Cairo, Like that guy, if you don't fucking pay him, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.640 he can just say no and you can't get on 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.520 a train. And there's just like so many layers of 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.040 like this guy who controls this specific thing and thus 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.280 can fuck you over unless you like do what he 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.280 tells you, which is usually give money. Unfortunately, we need 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.640 to go to ads. We'll be back in a second, 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:35.920 and we're back. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.560 Yeah. And it's part of why it's more durable is 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.120 it's not like you know, I think it's South Vietnam. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.440 You know, when when DM was around, you had a 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.959 lot of you have all this corruption, but a lot 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:49.800 of it is top down. It is people who are 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.000 loyal to the president. Right, A lot of the corruption 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:55.720 in places like this is bottom up in that it's 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:57.880 not a situation where all of these men who are 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.160 so loyal to the dictator have this corrupt position. I mean, 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.280 that's part of it. I'm not saying that it's not, 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.040 but a lot of it is that, like, well, maybe 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.280 it's technically my job to stop the guy who works 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.640 at the train station from denying people entrey if they 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.840 don't bribe him. But if I do that, then maybe 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.680 he's gonna make a fuss about how I'm doing the 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:21.000 same thing for like permits to fix your roof or whatever. Right, Like, 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.079 it's so much more bottom up in a lot of way. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.920 And so the reason this matters is that like, shit 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.760 doesn't really get better in Tunisia, right, And now that 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.439 the so while all these problems continue, corruption continues to 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.360 be an issue, high food prices continue to be an issue. 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.320 Unemployment continued to be an issue, particularly for young men. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:42.960 Another thing that's changed is that now everyone has seen 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.160 what what's Easy does has done. And like, obviously he 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.880 dies horribly, but one thing that happens is like his 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.520 family moves to Canada, right, Like they and this is 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.559 I don't think fair to his family. I haven't seen 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:56.840 evidence they were like corrupt or whatever, but like I 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.480 think because of how like because they're able to like 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.240 get out of this situation, it's seen as like, well, 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.880 maybe if I do this, not only will that hurt 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.440 whoever whatever, corrupt motherfucker you know, I'm angry at but 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.439 maybe shit will work out for my family. 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:10.800 Right. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.880 This is often not what actually happens, but there have 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:18.240 been hundreds of self immolation cases in the last ten 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.440 years in Tunisia. It has become you might compare it 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.040 to kind of mass shootings in the United States. Not 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.160 obviously on a moral level, you're not doing nearly the 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.440 same thing. You're not hurting anyone else, but in terms 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.199 of the fact that it is this really really shocking 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.240 event that then becomes kind of routine because people pick 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:37.600 up on it as like, well, this is what you 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.640 do in this situation, you know. One of the articles 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.920 that I read for this was an AP News piece 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.080 that interviews a guy named Hasni Kaleia, who's one of 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.160 the dudes, one of the many Tunisians who have attempted 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.400 or succeeded in killing themselves through self emolation as an 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:58.680 active protest. Hasney survived, right, and he did not survive 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.080 without serious injury. Right now, he has to he covers 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.400 his face at all times. His left hand he's lost 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.079 a bunch of fingers. His right hand has no fingers 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.000 at all anymore. He is just grievously injured as a 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.240 result of this. And he said, when interviewed by the 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.600 AP quote, I would never describe the act of self 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.480 emolation as an act of courage, because even the bravest 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.319 person in the world couldn't do it. When I poured 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.360 the petrol over my head, I wasn't really conscious about 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.680 what I was doing. Then I saw a flash, I 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.000 felt my skin start to burn, and I fell down. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.839 I woke up eight months later in the hospital. And 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.680 I found that really interesting, because there's a lot of 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.160 talk right now, you know, with what Aaron Bushnell did 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.960 about like principle and courage or mental illness or whatever, 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.600 and like to what do we credit something that is 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.720 so incomprehensible to most people. And I found what Hawsny 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.080 says here really interesting because what he's saying is that 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.240 like you can't even call it courage, you know, it's 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.720 almost like someone else's doing it. You were animated by 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:03.480 such rage and home hopelessness that it's almost like someone 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.160 else is in control of your body. And I don't 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.600 that doesn't sound like mental illness to me for certain. 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:15.240 That sounds like someone that sounds like desperation of such 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.280 an extent that it's mind altering. I don't know any 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.599 other way to describe it than that. And I'm not 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.520 saying this is what goes through everybody's head when they 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.040 sell f emlight. But you don't get a lot of 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.240 interviews with those people after the fact, right Yeah. 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.200 Well, like like there's the people who survive into Batan, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.439 and it's like, well, those guys, the Chinese government will 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.120 not let anyone near them, right, Like, no, you know, 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.240 and like I guess I should also I should mention 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.720 this about the Chinese government line on this is that 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:41.800 it's very similar to what you see in the American 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.480 presss like the well, no, you're seeing the terrorist stuff 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.800 too here. But like the Chinese government line, and this 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.760 line worked pretty well, is like these people were mentally ill, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.560 these people are terrorists or they were like misled by 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.160 like the Dalai Lamo who's like leading his people to 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:02.600 the flames. Yeah, and that's been kind of the that's 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.800 been kind of the playbook everywhere for this. That like 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.680 the one, the one that kind of works is that one. 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.480 It's it's you have to attack the moral character of 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.880 the person because it's such an it's such an. 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.880 Act of it's an inherently selfless selfless Yeah, it's the 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.719 only way to do it. He can't describe it anywhere else. 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:18.920 They're lighting themselves on fire. 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:20.640 Yeah, yeah, so and so they like, you know, the 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.920 it's it's it's the the Roger Stone rat fucking thing 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.480 of attack them where they're strong, and you know, so 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.120 it's the attack on the moral character that like happens. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.600 I think the thing with Tunisia too is it's like, 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:37.120 like the political alternative to this is this like rabid 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:38.400 anti immigrant politics. 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:38.920 You know. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.360 Yeah, we're like we'll talk about that in a second, 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.440 but yeah, it doesn't end well. One thing I do 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.400 want to hit on is the degree to which, again 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.640 this kind of does function in Tunisia as like a 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.640 mametic virus. Hawsny, the guy we heard from, survives, but 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.280 his brother shortly thereafter lights himself on fire in an 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.760 act of protest and kills himself and his mother attempts 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.240 to do the same, right like three members of the 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.000 family all carrying out self immolation, and it is one 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.960 of those things. This is listed as like an example 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.760 of the tactic succeeding, and it does in terms of it, 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.719 it gets the regime out of power. But things are 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.040 not better in Tunisia, especially since so you know, there 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:21.800 is a period of time where there is at least 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.920 a functioning democracy and significant gains for civil rights, but 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:29.560 because food still doesn't get affordable, there aren't jobs. A 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.560 lot You'll find a lot of articles from around twenty twenty, 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.400 especially where people are like, yeah, I guess freedom's nice, 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.680 but it's not really worth much if you're starving, you know, yeah, 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:42.280 which you know I anyway, all of this leads in 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.880 part to the coming to power of the guy who 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:51.320 is currently leading Tunisia, Kiss sayed. And as you noted, Mia, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.880 you know this guy is a populist. He is elected 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.160 with seventy two percent of the vote. He frames himself 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.040 like populist. Him to do is like I am you know, 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.960 I'm outside the system. I'm gonna help you take on 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.800 the elite that have corruptly ruled our country, and he 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.680 also is very anti migrant right Tunisia. A lot of 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.800 people who migrate into Europe do so through Tunisia just 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.760 for geographical reasons, and he is blaming a lot of 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.280 their problems on He does like great replacement shit that 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.160 all these black migrants are causing our country's problems. He 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.960 inspires a wave of violence against black people in Tunisia 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.880 that's pretty hideous and horrific. And he has gained a 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:33.000 significant amount of backing from particularly the Italian government, I 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:37.160 think also the French government, because he's cracking down on migrants, right, 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.960 and those migrants come to Italy and France and that's 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.760 a problem for those governments. So they're supporting this guy, who, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.480 by the way, has turned himself into a dictator. All 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.720 those gains Tunisia had in the wake of the Arab Spring, 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.960 he has rolled back. He has centralized power, he has 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.880 more or less destroyed the judiciary is something that's independent, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.440 you know, he is if he's not a dictator, he's 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.960 not all that far from it, you know. And he's 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.760 being supported by the these quote unquote democratic nations because well, 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.440 I mean because racism, right, Yeah, same reason they support 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.120 a Gadaffi, Like, yeah, when it comes to the politicians, 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.280 it's a mixture of racism and just like well, racism 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.680 wins votes, and when it comes to like why racism 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:17.640 win votes, it's back to racism, right anyway, So those 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.520 are that's Tunisia more or less. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.440 Unfortunately, we need to go to ads. We'll be back 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:37.120 in a second, and we're back. Yeah, So well let's 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.960 end on a slightly more positive note where well, so 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.680 the line I was gonna give was one about how 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.200 like you know, I mean, this is the thing with Tunisia, right, 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.880 is like you have this like Chenizia has effectively structural 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.920 unemployment rates of like thirty forty percent. Right, Yeah, it's 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.000 it's and that's that's the thing that that's the thing 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.800 that can't be solved without changing the economic system. 0:16:58.320 --> 0:16:58.560 Yep. 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:00.680 If you you know, if you you can have your 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.160 political revolution without your social revolution, you'll be right back 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.920 to where you were in like ten years. The problem though, 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.120 the other thing is you can have your social revolution 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:09.879 and also end up in the same place, which is 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.840 where we're going with with China. Where so one of 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.000 the there's a very famous Okay, I guess the place 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.439 we should start with this is that one of the 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:21.840 I've talked about this a bit on this show. One 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.240 of the ways that labor works in China like structurally 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.240 is that so you're a contractor, you work for a 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.960 contracting company. The contracting company is this like series of 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.439 shell companies, and there's like a there's like there's a 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.199 payday on like New Years because that's when the like 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.240 the financial like the year sort of rolls over and 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.440 that's when you get paid. And so these companies are 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.040 designed to specifically go out of business like the day 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:45.640 before New Year, so they don't have to pay any 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.560 of the workers for the work that they've done. And 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:54.080 this leads to a rash of protests in China, like 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.719 every single year on New Year's Day, there's like this 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.359 massive there's a protests like fucking everywhere because people have 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.639 been screwed. It happens a lot with construction companies, and 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:05.320 so there's a very like one of the very common 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.240 tactics you see is people like standing on top of 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.200 buildings holding banners saying like we're going to jump unless 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.640 you guys like pay us. And so that that's kind 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:16.600 of the background of this, which is that that's like, 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.000 that's a fairly common kind of like workers protest. In 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.560 twenty twenty one, there's a delivery driver in Jongsu who 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.320 he so something something I didn't really talk about the 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.320 ten episodes is that Chinese economy is increasingly becoming a 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:32.600 gig economy and this has been this has been happening 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.320 for a while now. And so this guy is a 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.480 delivery driver for Ali Baba and he's like, he's like 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.879 trying to change apps, and the app garnishes his wages 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.160 and steals seven hundred dollars from him, and that's an 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.040 enormous amount of money. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.240 Yeah, I mean the app garnished his wages. As a sentence, 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.480 that just makes me want to light something on fire. 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:53.840 So I get why this would spark protests. 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:55.520 Yeah, And he like tries to get it back and 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.600 they don't give it to him, and he like and 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:02.000 he lights himself on fire, and this turns into so 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.800 he lets self on fire and then like this this 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:07.280 is this is in twenty twenty one. This is the 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.920 same year where that Temu employee falls over dead, like 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:12.800 like dies in your bed from over work, and also 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:14.840 the same year when when a Temo employee jumps off 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.959 of the building because of over work. And this sets 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:26.040 off like a giant kind of shift in in the 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.720 way that the Chinese public is thinking about labor, because 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.439 up until this one, people have been you know, like China. 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.520 It's it's not it's nowhere near as bad as a Nia, 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.320 but it also has this problem of like everyone works 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.679 harder and harder. You're working, You're working nine ninety six, right, 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.919 You're working nine am nine pm, six days a week, 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.280 and you're like, you're working more and more and more 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.040 hours and you're not getting ahead, right, You're still stuck 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.600 in your shitty apartment and your app isn't paying you 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.159 for the work you did. And this leads to a 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.400 whole like a whole thing that sort of culminates in 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.119 in something I talked about a bit in the time 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.320 of episodes, which is the Chinese Supreme Court, Like the 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:10.480 Chinese Constitution says you're not supposed to be able to 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.240 work people for longer, for like thirty five hours, unless 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.720 like special circumstances, and the Chinese Supreme Court goes like, well, obviously, 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:22.000 you're not allowed to work people like twelve out like 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.720 twelve hours a day, six days a week, and that 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.479 isn't like in large part and partially it's because of 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.399