Speaker 1: One of the graduate students says, well, you talk about
Speaker 1: all this focus on creating value for others. Isn't that
Speaker 1: a little naive? He said, I mean, shouldn't you just
Speaker 1: you've got to maximize your profit? Oh my gosh, I said, Well,
Speaker 1: maybe it is a little naive, but it's working pretty
Speaker 1: well for us. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: In this episode, my guest is Charles Cooke. Charles Koke
Speaker 1: is chairman and CEO of Coke Industries, one of the
Speaker 1: largest privately held American companies. During his tenure with the company,
Speaker 1: the estimated value has grown from twenty one million to
Speaker 1: more than one hundred billion. Charles has published several books
Speaker 1: detailing its business philosophy, including the Science of Success, Good Profit,
Speaker 1: and Believe in People. As an influential philanthropist, he supports education,
Speaker 1: a community of organizations addressing persistent poverty, and public policy
Speaker 1: research focus on developing effective solutions to societal problems. He
Speaker 1: has founded new uamous organizations, including Stand Together and the
Speaker 1: Cato Institute, and he holds two master's degrees in nuclear
Speaker 1: and chemical engineering from MIT and He lives in Wichita,
Speaker 1: Kansas with his wife Liz. In this episode, I talked
Speaker 1: to Charles about his bottom up approach to social change.
Speaker 1: Charles recognizes that each individual has a gift. Schools and
Speaker 1: organizations should cultivate these unique strengths instead of trying to
Speaker 1: force people into molds. Charles asserts that institutions can create
Speaker 1: more meaningful value this way by truly believing in people.
Speaker 1: We also touch on the topics of multiple intelligences, self actualization, education, innovation,
Speaker 1: and philanthropy. So it's my great pleasure to bring you,
Speaker 1: Charles Koch. How you doing. Hey, this an honor. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's an honor to talk to you. I've wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to you for such a long time. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think I thank to Elizabeth for sending
Speaker 1: me your book in the first place, and now I
Speaker 1: got to thank you for writing it for goodness sake.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, you know I heard that you liked my
Speaker 1: Well I liked I liked it all. But but those
Speaker 1: footnotes were so powerful, particularly about Maslow's mother, and that
Speaker 1: that made me think more deeply about my parents, and
Speaker 1: and what I learned from then that I wanted to
Speaker 1: use and what I didn't want to use. So it
Speaker 1: wasn't this I hated everything, but I certain things I
Speaker 1: didn't like, and we can get into that if you want,
Speaker 1: because I think that that kind of forms I want
Speaker 1: to get into it. I could sider the interview started,
Speaker 1: you know, as I started, okay, because you know, like
Speaker 1: we're just having fun here, you know, we're just gonna
Speaker 1: we're gonna nerd out on all of our mutual interests.
Speaker 1: But I saw I definitely want to hear about this.
Speaker 1: Do you remember do you remember which footnote in particular
Speaker 1: or just you know, his he talked about his complicated
Speaker 1: relationship with his mother, you know. Well, yeah, there were
Speaker 1: many many other footnotes in there that I but that
Speaker 1: was the one that really gripped me because I had
Speaker 1: no idea that he he hated, as he put it,
Speaker 1: he hated everything she stood for. Yeah. So I think
Speaker 1: that is so cool because you know, he had a
Speaker 1: lot of these insights, mostly in the last two years
Speaker 1: of his life, you know, And that's the really interesting thing.
Speaker 1: And that's what he said, He said, it took me
Speaker 1: sixty one years to figure this out. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: we lived to sixty two, you know, so that was
Speaker 1: that was the last couple of years of his life.
Speaker 1: He was having all these transcendent awakenings we can call them.
Speaker 1: Didn't he die in in nineteen seventy, Yes, June eighth,
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy. That's almost a nerd I am. But I
Speaker 1: know so he was born in eight correct eight he
Speaker 1: was born, so he was almost identical my mother's age.
Speaker 1: She was born in O seven. You're good at math, Charles, Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: that was just what I at. You just did that
Speaker 1: computation on the spot, you know. Yeah, I know, I know,
Speaker 1: and I know that you also. We also, we have
Speaker 1: so much nerd out on today because I know you
Speaker 1: also really like multiple intelligence theory, and you have identified
Speaker 1: yourself as logical mathematical intelligence. But you did you know
Speaker 1: that I did my PhD with Robert Sternberg. No, I did.
Speaker 1: I should actually say, have you ever come across Robert
Speaker 1: Stenberg's working No, no no, I haven't. So Sternberg and Gardner
Speaker 1: were the two big ones who redefined intelligence in the
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. So Gardner, you obviously know and frames
Speaker 1: of mind for our listeners, he had the multip intelligence theory,
Speaker 1: but Robert Steenberg has a little bit of a different theory.
Speaker 1: I'd love to just let's see what you think of
Speaker 1: his theory. So he has analytical intelligence, creative intelligence, and
Speaker 1: practical intelligence, and he argues those three are different kinds
Speaker 1: of intelligence. Let me just ask you, do you see
Speaker 1: that kind of pull part? Do you think you're better
Speaker 1: at analytical than practical for instance, or creative more than
Speaker 1: anything else? Like, do you see them come apart with
Speaker 1: you at all? Well, I've got a different theory than
Speaker 1: all of them in that I think everyone's intelligence is
Speaker 1: unique to them. And that's my personal experience because my
Speaker 1: father and one of my brothers and I all were
Speaker 1: really good at math and logic, and they were both
Speaker 1: very good engineers. And although I got three degrees in engineering,
Speaker 1: I sucked as an engineer. I mean I really sucked.
Speaker 1: I couldn't you think, Okay, I was good at all
Speaker 1: the theory. You know, I'm three six years at MIT.
Speaker 1: But I wasn't good at making or operating anything, So
Speaker 1: how could I be an engineer? Weren't good, But I
Speaker 1: was good at the math and the science. And I
Speaker 1: love thermodynamics. And that's a big because maybe you've seen
Speaker 1: I use that in everything, in our management everything, And
Speaker 1: that is as many of the top scientists say, that
Speaker 1: is probably the most fundamental of nature. It's the second
Speaker 1: law of termindynamics, and entropy is always virtually always increasing.
Speaker 1: I agree. You know, when I saw that in your
Speaker 1: book you said that you liked entropy, I made a
Speaker 1: note that I wanted to talk to about that because
Speaker 1: I noticed that, Oh, yeah, this is really amazing. We
Speaker 1: already started this interview with like four threads that we
Speaker 1: could that are really interesting. Well, it makes me I finished,
Speaker 1: though not my point on the on the on the
Speaker 1: difference in intelligence. So I knew I wouldn't be good enduring.
Speaker 1: So I kept trying to kept experimenting. And that's what
Speaker 1: it's about. Finding your gift is not somebody can tell you, oh,
Speaker 1: you have this intelligence, you go take an aptitude test.
Speaker 1: I mean, that might help, but you've got to go
Speaker 1: experiment to what turns you on and what enables you
Speaker 1: to contribute. Do things that will turn you on, will
Speaker 1: will will make you excited, wake up at night wanting
Speaker 1: to do more of it and contribute, and that others
Speaker 1: will value. So you're contributing to the lives of others
Speaker 1: through that. And when you have that combination. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what happened to me, but not through engineering, I said,
Speaker 1: when my father persuaded me to come back and run
Speaker 1: our small business at the time, I mean I was
Speaker 1: successful at helping that because it was in bad shape,
Speaker 1: because he had such bad health. As you saw, I
Speaker 1: wrote a bot. But I was, as Maslow said, I
Speaker 1: wasn't developing my capacities. I felt this huge void, and
Speaker 1: I know I have a capacity to do more. So
Speaker 1: I've got to find it. So I started studying every
Speaker 1: discipline and history to find what I call principles of
Speaker 1: human progress, principles of human flourishing. And that's how I
Speaker 1: found Maslow and Howard Gardner. But I also found Polani
Speaker 1: and Nieces and high act and you name it, and
Speaker 1: each one. I wouldn't take what they said literally. I
Speaker 1: would then try to find arguments against it, because as
Speaker 1: who said that, if you know only your side of
Speaker 1: the case, you know little of that. I like it.
Speaker 1: I don't know who said it. That's well, it'll come
Speaker 1: to me. So I did that. And as I started
Speaker 1: finding these principles, then I had to apply them in
Speaker 1: every aspect of my life. Find out how to apply
Speaker 1: them in business, in our family, in my other relationships,
Speaker 1: and my charitable work and everything, and as I did
Speaker 1: in each area, I would learn things that would help
Speaker 1: me in the other aspects of my life. So that
Speaker 1: was my real gift. Is not that I'm better at
Speaker 1: math and some mathematician or nearly as good or better
Speaker 1: at science then some No I'm not. But what I'm
Speaker 1: good at is taking abstract principles and applying them to
Speaker 1: get results. Yeah, that's still a gift, and that's but
Speaker 1: that was through trial and error, a lot of failures,
Speaker 1: and then finding principles in the different disciplines that were consistent,
Speaker 1: like what in economics fits, psychology fits what in philosophy
Speaker 1: fits in sociology. That's reinforcing and that worked through history
Speaker 1: that made people's lives better. Well, you know, I'm always
Speaker 1: so curious in kind of the seeds of this stuff
Speaker 1: because you said a lot of it was trial and error,
Speaker 1: which is eternally true, but you also had a gift
Speaker 1: in the nact for it. You said in your book
Speaker 1: that even at each three or so or three or four,
Speaker 1: you realize that you and joyed math, and you were
Speaker 1: better than the other kids in the school at math.
Speaker 1: Isn't that right? It was a third grade yeah, third grade? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there there. You know, there are some seeds of
Speaker 1: our even the interest we can say, you know a
Speaker 1: lot of You see with these prodigies, even in very
Speaker 1: young they have this rage to master. You've had a
Speaker 1: rage to master in in in multiple things, right, I
Speaker 1: mean you also had a rage to master and understand
Speaker 1: the principles of helping to bring out the best in
Speaker 1: your employees. When you had this major transformation that we
Speaker 1: could talk about, that little transformation of it or that
Speaker 1: huge transformation. You said, my task was clear change the
Speaker 1: company's culture to one of empowerment not control. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about before what Coke Industries
Speaker 1: was like right before that, because you said you had
Speaker 1: some failures before that and then what this trans what
Speaker 1: led to that transformation? Well, Coke Industries back back, well,
Speaker 1: when I joined it was in Coke Industries. We had
Speaker 1: two business One was a Rock Island oil company and
Speaker 1: another was called Coke Engineering and Rock Out and all
Speaker 1: had a gathering crude all gathering system in southern Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: That is, it took oil from the lease and took
Speaker 1: it a relatively short distance to a major pipeline. And
Speaker 1: so we'd get a small fee for that. But that
Speaker 1: was a good business, but it was stagnant and they
Speaker 1: limited it to just doing it there. And so we said,
Speaker 1: I fortunately had a great partner who I wrote about,
Speaker 1: who was wonderful. He grew up in a tent and
Speaker 1: was born in a tent in an oil field, had
Speaker 1: all kinds of ailments, never finished college, and he was terrific,
Speaker 1: triffic with people as an entrepreneur. And that's part of
Speaker 1: our philosophy. Now we don't look for credentials. We look
Speaker 1: for somebody with a gift that can help us create
Speaker 1: value for others. And whose paraphrase Maslow, whose contribution motivated
Speaker 1: wants to succeed by contributing rather than manipulating or hurting
Speaker 1: others are falsely making themselves look good and anyway, So
Speaker 1: we made that much more entrepreneurial and spread and became
Speaker 1: the largest crude algether in North America. And then now
Speaker 1: we've sold that business and we're out of it. And
Speaker 1: then the other was coke engineering, where we made internals
Speaker 1: for disolation columns. You know, a chemical plan or refinery.
Speaker 1: See these columns, what has internals in them that caused
Speaker 1: the separation by difference in boiling points and that business
Speaker 1: was stagnant, just like the other one was, and it
Speaker 1: was top down and going nowhere matter Fay was break even.
Speaker 1: It wasn't making any money. So we started applying some
Speaker 1: of these humanistic concepts and good economic thinking, combining those
Speaker 1: two and it just took off. And then we applied
Speaker 1: the what I call virtuous cycles of mutual benefit, which
Speaker 1: is my way of applying the process of self actualizing
Speaker 1: to an organization. And so I look at creating virtual
Speaker 1: cycles of mutual benefit by an individual is the process
Speaker 1: of self actualized. I love it, Charles. That sounds to
Speaker 1: me like this notion of synergy than Maslow talked about,
Speaker 1: which he actually got from Ruth Benedict to the anthropologist.
Speaker 1: I actually saw that in your book. I learned a
Speaker 1: lot from your book. I like to think I knew
Speaker 1: all this stuff, but I did. You've educated me. Well,
Speaker 1: this great She's oh, this is a great thing. Having
Speaker 1: kids that now are educating me more than I'm educating ma'am.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is well, it doesn't get any better
Speaker 1: than that. I absolutely adore your daughter, Elizabeth Cooke. She
Speaker 1: is amazing, She is awesome. So I just really want
Speaker 1: to put that on the record, But yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I I love this idea of synergy and I love
Speaker 1: that you love it too, you know, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people aren't talking about it. A lot of people
Speaker 1: have false notions or a false economy between selfish and
Speaker 1: the unselfish. That yeah, let me tell you. When I
Speaker 1: published Good Profit, then since I spent all this time
Speaker 1: at MIT, the dean of the business school at MIT
Speaker 1: want to come and interview me in front of the
Speaker 1: students and they could ask questions. So he was interviewing me,
Speaker 1: and then during the q and A, one of the
Speaker 1: graduate students says, well, you talk about all this focus
Speaker 1: on creating value for others. Isn't that a little naive?
Speaker 1: He said, I mean, shouldn't you just you've got to
Speaker 1: maximize your profits? I said, well, maybe maybe it is
Speaker 1: a little naive, but it's working pretty well for us.
Speaker 1: And is that more naive or it is more naive
Speaker 1: just to think about yourself? What's you? Then? Why is
Speaker 1: anybody going to want to do business with you? And
Speaker 1: it's not just if you're just thinking about yourself and
Speaker 1: not the value you create for all those who are
Speaker 1: important to you and not just your customers. But how
Speaker 1: about your employees. How about your suppliers. Do you want
Speaker 1: to just beat them down, as a lot of companies do,
Speaker 1: rather than reward them for innovating and help you succeed.
Speaker 1: And how about your communities? And how about society as
Speaker 1: a whole. If you don't worry, if you don't have
Speaker 1: good stewardship, that is, acting in a way that with
Speaker 1: due regard for the rights of others, they're not going
Speaker 1: to want you to exist. So you have to You
Speaker 1: have to focus on creating value for others and then
Speaker 1: and focus in areas where you have the capability to
Speaker 1: do that. And that's the same for an individual and
Speaker 1: an organization. And we would hope a society preachs, brother,
Speaker 1: preach I love it, not just you know idea. No,
Speaker 1: I know you're not, but I'm saying I love it.
Speaker 1: You can keep going all day. Hey everyone, I'm excited
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Speaker 1: to welcoming you to be a part of the Transcender community. Okay,
Speaker 1: now back to the show. I was wondering, during the
Speaker 1: course of your career, when has there been a conflict?
Speaker 1: Can you think of any examples in your life where
Speaker 1: there was an opportunity presented to you or something that
Speaker 1: directly because that's when we're we kind of are most
Speaker 1: authentic right when it's challenged, not when it's not challenged.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just wonder to any examples of that
Speaker 1: in your life when some of these fundamental principles of
Speaker 1: yours have been challenged and you had to make a
Speaker 1: tough decision. Well, we have failed and continually failed to
Speaker 1: fully apply our principles and our success and so yeah,
Speaker 1: we've had many failures. I write in the books about
Speaker 1: shipping about dealing not dealing with employees narcissistic employees who
Speaker 1: have the idealized self, and the more feedback we give
Speaker 1: them then the more destructive. So we need to apply
Speaker 1: the principle they need to go somewhere else and get treatment.
Speaker 1: We can't. We can't do it. The more we try
Speaker 1: to help them, the worse they get. So that's a violation.
Speaker 1: And then safety problems partularly with companies we acquired, but
Speaker 1: with our own and I remember preaching about boy were
Speaker 1: having safety problems and other problems. We got to do
Speaker 1: better and just preaching rather than really getting in and intervening.
Speaker 1: And when we started having it affect their bonus and
Speaker 1: their position and their authority, then they started to change.
Speaker 1: So there have to be consequences to people. They have
Speaker 1: to be accountability. You can't just be lecturing. And that's
Speaker 1: a big mistake we made with our framework and applying
Speaker 1: these principles. You know, I thought, Okay, we just talk
Speaker 1: and everybody will get it and be turned on by
Speaker 1: all the concepts like I am, and that doesn't work.
Speaker 1: I mean it works for some, but for most people
Speaker 1: there have to be accountability, They have to have a
Speaker 1: cost to this behavior. And then they say, okay, now
Speaker 1: I get it. You know, one way of frison that
Speaker 1: I would say is motivating from within. And I think
Speaker 1: that this is really relevant to your really great distinction
Speaker 1: that you make between top down and bottom up organizations.
Speaker 1: You said top down earlier, but I thought it'd be
Speaker 1: worth it to actually explain a little bit to our
Speaker 1: audience what you mean by that difference. So could you
Speaker 1: please explain what bottom up and top down means in
Speaker 1: your model? Right? Well, yes, top down. It's what how
Speaker 1: I called the fatal conceit that you think you know
Speaker 1: better than everybody how to do their job, how to
Speaker 1: run their lives, everything. So so rather than empower them
Speaker 1: and use their knowledge and help them develop and realize
Speaker 1: their potential and have meaning in their lives and get
Speaker 1: excited about what they're doing and so they can innovate,
Speaker 1: you stifle you control and stifle them and make them
Speaker 1: dependent on you. And we see that everywhere. And I'll
Speaker 1: give you some I mean, for example, the use of
Speaker 1: technology today there's some companies who use it, like in
Speaker 1: certain manual jobs, to time them and watch their motions
Speaker 1: and then they go in and inter be no, if
Speaker 1: you if you move this way, you can do it
Speaker 1: quicker and do everything faster. And I mean that's like
Speaker 1: treating people as a slave. Is that like McGregor's theory
Speaker 1: X yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, And so that's still out there.
Speaker 1: And so we've invested heavily in tech knowledge, but we
Speaker 1: try to use it to empower people, to make the
Speaker 1: people's jobs interesting and so they get get turned on.
Speaker 1: And I'll give you an example of this individual named
Speaker 1: Pedro was working in the night shift in the building
Speaker 1: cleaning the building, and he wanted something better and he said, God,
Speaker 1: there's no future in this. So he took a job
Speaker 1: much higher pay breaking up concrete. He was getting twenty
Speaker 1: five dollars an hour and he said, he said, this
Speaker 1: is going nowhere, and I hate this. So he said,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get a job that where I can
Speaker 1: learn and as I learned, then I can have a
Speaker 1: more fulfilling work and fully use my and developed my abilities.
Speaker 1: And so he got a job. We're doing manual work
Speaker 1: on a laser cutting businessess and as he started in that,
Speaker 1: he started to gain more skills. So he said, I
Speaker 1: want to go back to Coke because they will give
Speaker 1: me the opportunity then develop. Now that I've got a
Speaker 1: track that leads somewhere. So he came back and now
Speaker 1: he's a programmer for these laser systems because in that
Speaker 1: which he never knew. And so that's why I say,
Speaker 1: we don't hire on credentials. We hire on values and talent,
Speaker 1: and that is being contribution motivated. And you've got some
Speaker 1: talent that will help us create value, then we want
Speaker 1: you here. Matter of fact, the head of our IT
Speaker 1: security I never graduate from college, and he's terrific. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm really glad that you bring that up. And
Speaker 1: also the idea of giving opportunities to really talented and
Speaker 1: contribution motivated people who wouldn't ordinarily have as opportunities. I
Speaker 1: know you're deeply interested in that. You point out in
Speaker 1: your book the tragic realities of the deterioration of core
Speaker 1: institutions that people rely on even in the toughest times.
Speaker 1: You write America's on a trajectory toward a two tiered society,
Speaker 1: one in which fewer people get ahead and more people
Speaker 1: fall behind. I know you are deeply interested in helping
Speaker 1: the people who are falling behind. I was just wondering
Speaker 1: some to hear some of your thoughts on how we can,
Speaker 1: because this is definitely an area of mutual interest of ours.
Speaker 1: Is all these people falling between the cracks are people
Speaker 1: who have these amazing talents and people who are just
Speaker 1: contribution motivated. They don't even need I would argue that
Speaker 1: the talent is not even as important as I prefer
Speaker 1: the contribution motivated part. You know, how can we get
Speaker 1: them more opportunities in society and get them more seen
Speaker 1: and resources. We need to show both educators and business
Speaker 1: people that there's a better way, and this top down,
Speaker 1: one size fits all, like our education system that teach
Speaker 1: the test, run it on averages rather than the individualized
Speaker 1: education that helps each person find their gift. And there's
Speaker 1: a little book on that which I have right here
Speaker 1: somewhere called called Unschooling Rules by Aldridge, and in it
Speaker 1: he says education ought to be three dimensional. That is,
Speaker 1: you learn to be, That is, you learn who you are,
Speaker 1: and then you learn to learn. You learn the things
Speaker 1: that will that you need to know to contribute and develop,
Speaker 1: and then you need to learn how to apply. And
Speaker 1: that's what I did. Okay. I learned that I had
Speaker 1: these gifts in this narrow area, and I wasn't good.
Speaker 1: The other thing that's important is to learn once you're
Speaker 1: not good at And I learned through trial and error
Speaker 1: all the different jobs I had and all the things
Speaker 1: I wasn't good at. And then I learned it through
Speaker 1: studying engineering, and I wasn't good at that. But it
Speaker 1: took me twenty years of floundering around in the wilderness
Speaker 1: to find my particular gift, which is applying these abstract
Speaker 1: concepts to help organizations get results and get results by
Speaker 1: contributing to others. But it took me twenty years. And
Speaker 1: my daughter and son, you know, I taught all this
Speaker 1: stuff to them when they were little, or most of it,
Speaker 1: and then it took them to find their own unique
Speaker 1: path that would be fulfilling to them and give meaning
Speaker 1: in their lives and let them fully realize their potential.
Speaker 1: And now they found it, and they're both just they're
Speaker 1: blowing me away as I tell them both, you always
Speaker 1: your age are doing much more and much better than
Speaker 1: I did at your age. Yeah, well, you know, they were.
Speaker 1: Obviously we're very fortunate to have the economic resources to
Speaker 1: realize that potential. I want to just zoom in on
Speaker 1: my question a little bit more before that question goes away.
Speaker 1: You know, how can we like lots of these kinds
Speaker 1: of kids that have these potentials, are contribution motivated, but
Speaker 1: are just schools where their safety needs are their top priority.
Speaker 1: How can we get them more thinking about growth? Well,
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing through through this charitable community that
Speaker 1: we're involved in. We support I would say hundreds of
Speaker 1: experiments in education to find that and find things that
Speaker 1: would connect. And we have one that lives My wife
Speaker 1: and I started thirty years ago called Empowered. It used
Speaker 1: to be called Youth Entrepreneurs, but in that it was
Speaker 1: it was to help particularly in schools and troubled neighborhoods,
Speaker 1: to go into there and offer a class that taught
Speaker 1: them the basics of success and to help them find
Speaker 1: their gift. Then have them prepare a business plan based
Speaker 1: on something that have a passion for, and then the
Speaker 1: ones that look good, provide a little seed capital, maybe
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars or a few hundred dollars so they
Speaker 1: could start, and then they find their gifts, find out
Speaker 1: to apply it and start to believe in themselves because
Speaker 1: a lot of these are considered throwaway kids, as they
Speaker 1: call them, and they're no one who's the throwaway. So
Speaker 1: I'm just one example of this girl named April. She
Speaker 1: was one of the winners, and she told the story
Speaker 1: of graduation how she was failing everything. Her mother was
Speaker 1: in drugs, her father was gone, her brother was shot,
Speaker 1: and someone was in prison, and so she thought it
Speaker 1: was hopeless. So she was failing everything. And she comes
Speaker 1: to this she hears about this class where you maybe
Speaker 1: you can get some money. So that's good. She wants
Speaker 1: to get some money, and she says, Wow, to get money,
Speaker 1: I've got to learn how to prepare business plans. I
Speaker 1: got to learn how to write and speak. I've got
Speaker 1: to if I have a business, I've got to learn
Speaker 1: math or I won't be able to see what's working
Speaker 1: and what's not. And if I want to have customers
Speaker 1: and people work from, I got to start treating people
Speaker 1: with respect. And she said it transformed my life and
Speaker 1: I started getting straight a's. And that's the waste we're
Speaker 1: seeing with the current system. And so we broaden that
Speaker 1: to what we call empower, to empower show the teachers
Speaker 1: there is a better way, and that is that it's
Speaker 1: this three dimensional education to help them learn who they are,
Speaker 1: where they have an aptitude, where they have a passion.
Speaker 1: Then learn all the things that are necessary. It's like
Speaker 1: my father used to tell me when I was He said, sudden,
Speaker 1: learn everything you can because you never know whether they're
Speaker 1: coming handing. Then learn how to apply it in a
Speaker 1: way that in a way that other people will value
Speaker 1: and reward you for it, so then you have the
Speaker 1: mutual benefit. And this is what Maslow said so well.
Speaker 1: He said when you have this kind of management in
Speaker 1: the company as well, where a company tries to do that,
Speaker 1: it's revolutionary. And he said it was. You remember he
Speaker 1: said that it was that education was the most important thing.
Speaker 1: And now he says, well maybe business, because everybody has
Speaker 1: got to work somewhere, and when they do in this
Speaker 1: kind of atmosphere, it changes their whole being and their
Speaker 1: whole approach when they have this opportunity to find their
Speaker 1: gift and apply it. So so what we do now
Speaker 1: is the number one job of every supervisor, and we
Speaker 1: have like twenty some thousand supervisors in our company is
Speaker 1: to help their people self actualize. Oh love it and
Speaker 1: what that and what that means is that they've got
Speaker 1: to help them find a gift and a passion. So
Speaker 1: design a roll around them, not stick them in a
Speaker 1: role in something they're not good at and hate and
Speaker 1: then punish them for that. When we got when somebody
Speaker 1: is trying hard and they're failing, we take it. That's
Speaker 1: our fault. We've if you know, now, if you're not
Speaker 1: trying and you don't give a damn and you're destructive,
Speaker 1: then that's different. But if you're trying, then we've got
Speaker 1: the We're going to find a role for you where
Speaker 1: you can succeed. And then to mentor them and give
Speaker 1: them the tools. And this is what I want technology
Speaker 1: is doing now to give them the tools and information
Speaker 1: so they can be more independent. As Maslow said, they
Speaker 1: can have ownership for what they're doing, have more authority,
Speaker 1: and then they really get turned on. And I can't
Speaker 1: tell you. I mean, like I told you about Pedro,
Speaker 1: we have so many examples now where either the employee
Speaker 1: took the initiative. I don't like this role, but if
Speaker 1: I'm in this, I think I'll be turned on. And
Speaker 1: then we try them in that and it works and
Speaker 1: they said, now I know what you mean by being
Speaker 1: self actualized or it can be some supervisor sees them
Speaker 1: and they have a talent that they could use better
Speaker 1: in a different role. So we're now we're building this call.
Speaker 1: I'm say, I'm not saying we're perfect. We have a
Speaker 1: long way to go, but where we get that, I mean,
Speaker 1: the results just go through the roof. I love that.
Speaker 1: I love that. I'm really interested in transforming teachers and
Speaker 1: their purpose from teachers to self actualization coaches. And I'm
Speaker 1: really trying to build up a coaching program for teachers
Speaker 1: that teaches them the latest principles of human development and
Speaker 1: human potential so they can spot the strengths. And also
Speaker 1: the managers and supervisors. Sounds like you're training them over
Speaker 1: there to be self actualization coaches as well. So if
Speaker 1: we target it from both ends, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: we go a long way. And we're and that's what
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to do in our education experiments too.
Speaker 1: And I mean, and that's what what youth entrepreneurs now
Speaker 1: being empowered is, That's what it is. And then we're
Speaker 1: working with Saul Khan have you have you looked at
Speaker 1: him Saltkon, Yeah, yeah, he's great. So we have a
Speaker 1: partnership with him to take his materials and combine that
Speaker 1: with a coach, a live coach, and these will be volunteers,
Speaker 1: Like somebody has retired and they're looking for some way
Speaker 1: to contribute, and they're good at math, so they would
Speaker 1: volunteer to help groups who are using salcan stuff that
Speaker 1: come in and and tutor them. Or it could be
Speaker 1: a high school student who has a gift and match
Speaker 1: come in and help them, or or somebody who's good
Speaker 1: verbally or good at at anything. And so now we're
Speaker 1: building this inventory and we have thousands of volunteers, people
Speaker 1: who are saying, I love this, this will be this
Speaker 1: will be a blast. So we need to we need
Speaker 1: to work more fully together. I know you you've you've
Speaker 1: talked to some of our people that stand together been
Speaker 1: I think we're we're absolutely on the same page here,
Speaker 1: I mean one hundred percent. So when I was reading
Speaker 1: Believe in People, I basically I could have under I
Speaker 1: could have highlighted every sentence they go, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I absolutely agree. And it's just how cool would that
Speaker 1: be to just transform education where teachers felt like their
Speaker 1: purpose wasn't just to manage the students, but to actually
Speaker 1: bring out their best potential and just completely reframe the
Speaker 1: whole issue. Oh, it'd be so exciting when it. Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that's that's our goal. Yeah yeah. And then and then
Speaker 1: get businesses to stop hiring on credentials and start hiring
Speaker 1: on on values and talent. And then and then find
Speaker 1: roles that that are design roles around people's talents rather
Speaker 1: than that sticking round pegs in square holes. Totally. I
Speaker 1: think our mutual friend Todd Rose has a book with
Speaker 1: that title. Oh yeah, We've been working for some time
Speaker 1: with Todd. I think, as you know, it does great
Speaker 1: work in the education space too. Yes, yes, you know.
Speaker 1: I want to just shift for a second to the
Speaker 1: all these divides we have right now, like the political divides.
Speaker 1: I really really like your shift, your proposed shift from
Speaker 1: partisanship to partnership. I love it. I love it. I'm
Speaker 1: going to actually read a quote before it, before I
Speaker 1: give the microphone for a second, I want to read
Speaker 1: one of your quotes that I loved. You said, I'm
Speaker 1: still passionate about removing barriers in public policy, and that
Speaker 1: requires participating in politics, but not in the usual partisan way.
Speaker 1: A superior approach is partnership, cooperating with people to accomplish
Speaker 1: public policies that help improve people's lives, regardless of which
Speaker 1: political party our partners belonged to. When did you start,
Speaker 1: you know, having that idea about that paradigm shift and
Speaker 1: how are you enacting that today? And who are you
Speaker 1: working with along these lines? Well? I always had it,
Speaker 1: but it's what I didn't live up to it. As
Speaker 1: Michael Pliny pointed out, that innovations come from seeing gaps,
Speaker 1: gaps between what you're doing and what you could be
Speaker 1: doing unmet needs. And so what we do is get
Speaker 1: every We tried to get every employee to realize that however,
Speaker 1: well they're doing maybe the best in the world, but
Speaker 1: there's a better way to do it. And the way,
Speaker 1: you see the better way is by seeing, Okay, here's
Speaker 1: what we're doing, and if we were fully applying our principles,
Speaker 1: what would we be doing differently, and then set up
Speaker 1: experiments to close that gap. And when we get people
Speaker 1: and groups doing that, it takes off. So go back
Speaker 1: to politics. I mean I started studying these principles almost
Speaker 1: sixty years ago and applying them and as I said,
Speaker 1: trial and error, we've failed and the way we were
Speaker 1: applying them, and then we'd learned something and do better,
Speaker 1: and then applying them in our philanthropic work or social
Speaker 1: change work. And as we did, we realized we've started.
Speaker 1: I started with education. We can do it with as
Speaker 1: I said earlier, by educating. No, no, we've got to
Speaker 1: change some of these policies. There's policies are holding people back,
Speaker 1: so we've got to change. And so we worked on
Speaker 1: that for a while. But then we went, Okay, the
Speaker 1: politicians aren't interested. We got to find politicians who will
Speaker 1: empower people, not try to control them and make them
Speaker 1: dependent so they can get more power. And so then
Speaker 1: we got in politics and it looked like the only
Speaker 1: way to do that is pick a side. So we
Speaker 1: fell into that and violated well principle of one of
Speaker 1: my heroes, Frederick Douglas unite with anybody to do right
Speaker 1: and no one to do wrong. And so I've realized that, okay,
Speaker 1: we're not well. I I developed this idea, this principle
Speaker 1: on partnerships. The best partnerships are are when you find
Speaker 1: someone you share vision and values and have complementary capabilities.
Speaker 1: And all the good partnerships I've had, that's that's made
Speaker 1: us successful, including my wonderful wife. We have those we
Speaker 1: share vision and values and have complementary capabilities. That is,
Speaker 1: I'm only good at a narrow range of things and
Speaker 1: she's good at everything else, So works out great for me.
Speaker 1: Can I read? Can I read a quote? Real quick?
Speaker 1: You said, No, one has changed my life more than
Speaker 1: my life Liz. She has everything I'm not and everything
Speaker 1: I need. I just want to read that book. That's beautiful. No,
Speaker 1: that's that's so true. And now my case, so I
Speaker 1: got I got a whole family that's shoring me up,
Speaker 1: which I sorely need. Yeah. So anyway, so so we
Speaker 1: saw that that was that this this idea of partnerships,
Speaker 1: I was applying that too broadly, Like we got to share.
Speaker 1: We got to have the same vision on how society
Speaker 1: look as a whole. Well, no, we're I mean I
Speaker 1: don't agree with what I believe last year, so I
Speaker 1: mean I'm going to be by myself here pretty soon.
Speaker 1: So he said, no, No, we got to narrow down
Speaker 1: vision to a vision on a particular problem, whether that's
Speaker 1: a criminal justice system, whether that's foreign policy, whether that's
Speaker 1: how to deal with poverty or addiction or the criminal justice.
Speaker 1: As I said, so once we narrowed that down, then
Speaker 1: then that opened up that we can partner with almost
Speaker 1: anybody who really wants to help people. If they don't,
Speaker 1: if they just want power, then we don't share really
Speaker 1: share vision and values. Yeah, so you want to stick
Speaker 1: with your principles, So I just want to read some
Speaker 1: of these guiding principles you have. I just want to
Speaker 1: read the list. Integrity, stewardship and compliance, principled entrepreneurship, transformation, knowledge, humility, respect,
Speaker 1: and my favorite self actualization. Now, these are the principles
Speaker 1: of progress. I assume these are the principles you're referring
Speaker 1: to that you will reach across party lines with anyone
Speaker 1: who who shares these common principles. Is that right? Well?
Speaker 1: These are Yeah, these are central, but they're broader principles
Speaker 1: for except a first society just globally. What we would
Speaker 1: like is a society that we've never had in this
Speaker 1: country that fully live up to the principles and the
Speaker 1: declaration of independence which we're putting in put in my words,
Speaker 1: it's it's a system have a system, a society based
Speaker 1: on equal rights and mutual benefit, where people succeed by
Speaker 1: contributing to others and everyone has the opportunity to realize
Speaker 1: their potential and live a life of meaning by finding
Speaker 1: a calling that helps others. I love that. And you
Speaker 1: see these days, you see so much like greed and
Speaker 1: various forms of capitalism that I assume you rail against.
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, yeah, well no, we're against all
Speaker 1: all those policies. What what we want our policies that
Speaker 1: empower people and treat everybody equally and find ways to
Speaker 1: give everybody an opportunity to realize our potential. I know
Speaker 1: that we both love this quote from Maslow, what you
Speaker 1: can be be? Oh yeah, no, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 1: my favorite. I know it's your favorite, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I I'm just wondering, like, how how can we do this?
Speaker 1: You know, so many people are so focused on their
Speaker 1: most pressing needs that they don't even see the possibilities
Speaker 1: with themselves. They can't, you know, they're not even aware
Speaker 1: that there's more to life, you know, there's more to them. Well,
Speaker 1: I think I think we get everybody to read you
Speaker 1: psyche and management or now Maslow and Management, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was that was one of the early books I read. It's,
Speaker 1: as I said to people that have influenced me, two
Speaker 1: authors that have influenced me the most are are Maslow
Speaker 1: and Highak. And people find that. But but actually they
Speaker 1: were after similar things, and so so I was ordering
Speaker 1: you Psyche in Management continually until after the nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: three book was printed. It went out of print. So
Speaker 1: we went to Bertha and got approval to reprint it,
Speaker 1: and we had we reprinted here. I have a copy. Right.
Speaker 1: First of all, you met Bertha. No, no, we didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't meet her. But let me see. I can't
Speaker 1: tell where. Yeah, I just hold it up, pulled it up.
Speaker 1: I'll take a picture. Yeah I got it. Oh wow.
Speaker 1: You see where it says. Yes, it says printed by
Speaker 1: Coke Industries for permission from Bertha G. Masloh. So your
Speaker 1: your your team was in touch, direct touch with Bertha. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was cool. And that was when whenever the nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy three printing went out of print, then we contacted
Speaker 1: her and got approval and printed several thousand of them
Speaker 1: and distributed to our employees. There's probably so much. You know,
Speaker 1: we'll grab a beer or something another day. There's probably
Speaker 1: so much we could nerd out about in that. There's
Speaker 1: so much in there, you know, in that particular thing.
Speaker 1: Because a lot of people haven't read Have you read
Speaker 1: Metal's Journal's Main chance, Yeah, I've got Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I got them right here. Oh my gosh. Now I
Speaker 1: haven't read them all, but I've read I've read parts
Speaker 1: of them. I think me and you are the only
Speaker 1: ones in the world who have ever actually read those
Speaker 1: personal diary. What else I got? I got what else
Speaker 1: you got? I got the the uh, the Further Human
Speaker 1: Natures Edition first, and Elizabeth found that for me in
Speaker 1: a used bookstore. Then I've got Personality and Growth, motivation
Speaker 1: and personality toward his psychology of being Wow. And you
Speaker 1: have Transcend. Yeah, I've got Transcend. I've got yours, and
Speaker 1: and I've got I've also got McGregor The Human Side
Speaker 1: of Enterprise. That was probably the first one I read. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then I've got I've got Frankel's book Man Search
Speaker 1: for Me And as I said, and I wrote in
Speaker 1: Good Profit. Uh So, Maslow and Anayak are the two
Speaker 1: authors that have probably influenced me the most. And then
Speaker 1: the two what I call social entrepreneurs that influenced me
Speaker 1: the rossam Frederick Douglas and Frankel. And the reason is
Speaker 1: that people talk about the hierarchy of needs and you've
Speaker 1: got to work your way up. Well, it's possible to
Speaker 1: go directly under the worst conditions to realizing your potential
Speaker 1: and being contribution motivated. And Frank and Frederick Douglas proved that.
Speaker 1: Remember the Frederick Douglas story, or you will know obviously
Speaker 1: more about Frankel the probably than Frederick Douglas, or maybe not.
Speaker 1: Frederick Douglas was a slave, right, he was a slave, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but here he was. He was a slave, a house
Speaker 1: slave in Baltimore when he was like eight, and he
Speaker 1: saw the mistress teaching her kids to read, and so
Speaker 1: he went here and teach me to read. And she said, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: she was doing it. And the husband came in and says, no,
Speaker 1: you can't teach him to read. He will be unfit
Speaker 1: to be a slave if he learns to read. And
Speaker 1: so so Frederick Douglas says, well, the reason I'm a slave,
Speaker 1: I'm enslaved, is not that I'm inferior. I'm kept ignorant,
Speaker 1: so he ingeniously I won't go in details, taught himself
Speaker 1: to read. And then when he was sent back to
Speaker 1: the plantation when he was sixteen, he was allowed to
Speaker 1: teach Sunday school and he was secretly teaching the other
Speaker 1: slaves to read. And he says, and here's what he said,
Speaker 1: at last, I found a way to contribute. Wow, Now
Speaker 1: that shows how powerful that is. And then when he
Speaker 1: escaped and he got his first job, it was moving
Speaker 1: a pile of cold and he got paid a dollar.
Speaker 1: He said, I'm not just a free man. I'm a
Speaker 1: free working man. So I mean this, you know, it
Speaker 1: brings tears to your eyes. These and then Frankel his
Speaker 1: experience in the death camps and dedicating himself to helping
Speaker 1: others rather than himself, and he said, that's what kept
Speaker 1: me alive because then I had meaning. I had purpose.
Speaker 1: That's why when he writes about meaning in your life
Speaker 1: and the importance, well he's someone to listen to. Well,
Speaker 1: both of them are. So that's why I pay so
Speaker 1: much attention to it, because they've lived. And that's our
Speaker 1: model for all the social entrepreneurs we work with, we
Speaker 1: partner with, and they're over two hundred of them for
Speaker 1: just dealing with poverty and other ailments. And those are
Speaker 1: all people who have either experienced it personally or seen
Speaker 1: it first hand. And I mean it blows me away
Speaker 1: what these people have gone through and how dedicated they are,
Speaker 1: As Frederick Douglas was not to get vengeance for the
Speaker 1: abuses against them, but to help prevent others from having
Speaker 1: gone through what they did. I mean, that is the
Speaker 1: ultimate in human nature. And so that's what I would
Speaker 1: hope for, to have a society of meaning where everybody
Speaker 1: found meaning in their lives. I love it. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about the hashtag give together
Speaker 1: now that your organizations stand together, put together? Yes, I
Speaker 1: mean that was in to deal with with COVID and yeah,
Speaker 1: we raised I think over one hundred million for that.
Speaker 1: Can you explain a little bit what it was about? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was It was that a lot of these programs
Speaker 1: it took a long time to get the money. It's
Speaker 1: when people needed to give it to get it now.
Speaker 1: And these were these weren't people who who were just
Speaker 1: didn't want to work or weren't doing These were people
Speaker 1: who were working their way out of poverty and because
Speaker 1: of COVID they were knocked back, and so give them
Speaker 1: enough to give them a leg up. And then and
Speaker 1: then developed communities where they helped each other, and if
Speaker 1: somebody needed something in this community, then they would help
Speaker 1: each other. So was this whole concept of mutual benefit
Speaker 1: and dedicating yourself to helping others even though you're in need,
Speaker 1: and to give them enough resources to be able to
Speaker 1: do that. So that's what it was based on. But
Speaker 1: it really got a response. Yeah, I love this idea
Speaker 1: of empowering everyone to be contribution motivated. And you had
Speaker 1: talked about well, you asked this question. Had universities, labs, businesses,
Speaker 1: and healthcare providers been able to fully contribute from the
Speaker 1: outset of the pandemic as opposed to distinguishing between essential
Speaker 1: workers and non essential workers, how much better might the
Speaker 1: response have been. I thought that was a really really important,
Speaker 1: powerful question you asked in your book. Yeah. No, absolutely no.
Speaker 1: And once again this is I mean, for example, no
Speaker 1: one was allowed to privately develop the test. Just the
Speaker 1: government agencies were and their tests failed, so it put
Speaker 1: us back several months. Just if that had been allowed,
Speaker 1: I maybe, like the vaccines, these were a bunch of
Speaker 1: different people, different companies, different researchers doing it on their own. No,
Speaker 1: they got help, but they were permitted to do it.
Speaker 1: And so that's what we need a system of empowering
Speaker 1: everybody because you don't know who's going to do it.
Speaker 1: If you think you got all the answers or you're
Speaker 1: the smart people and everybody else is dumb, then you're dead.
Speaker 1: That's just why this multiple intelligence theory so grabbed me,
Speaker 1: because that's what I have found. I mean, I'm dumb
Speaker 1: in most ways, but I'm pretty smart in an area.
Speaker 1: And so what are you going to throw me out
Speaker 1: with the bathwater and throw everybody out who isn't good
Speaker 1: at whatever whatever's in I am. I want to send
Speaker 1: you a present. I want to send you a present
Speaker 1: after a week. Have you ever seen Have you read
Speaker 1: my book on Gift did Intelligence Redefined? No? No I haven't.
Speaker 1: I'm going to send you a copy. So essentially, my
Speaker 1: theory of personal intelligence is that we need to unlock
Speaker 1: the potential people by drawing on their dreams and desires
Speaker 1: and engagement forms of engagement. So I think you're gonna
Speaker 1: You're gonna just yet another thing for us to nerd
Speaker 1: out about someday I will, I will if if if
Speaker 1: you want it, I would all just send you a copy. No,
Speaker 1: I'd love to. No, that's that's right down my alley.
Speaker 1: Here's here's something that that I hadn't picked this up
Speaker 1: from you psych and management, and I got out of
Speaker 1: your book. It says, under ideal conditions, and I'll skip
Speaker 1: the word here in the middle, there would be a
Speaker 1: mutual selection between the person and his self actualizing work,
Speaker 1: his cause, responsibility, call, vocation, task, and so forth. So
Speaker 1: he said, there is an interaction, a mutual suitability, lack,
Speaker 1: a good marriage or a good ship, like being designed
Speaker 1: for each other. That's our goal in the company. And
Speaker 1: obviously we can't. We don't know, although in some areas
Speaker 1: we do. We've just helped people find new roles, and
Speaker 1: some of them are giddy. They're so thrilled with their
Speaker 1: new role because the whole thing fits them rather than
Speaker 1: just a part of it fits them, and the results
Speaker 1: just are great, both for them and for everybody. Well,
Speaker 1: let me read you one of my favorites this, so
Speaker 1: thank you for this. We're gonna start using this quote. See,
Speaker 1: oh did you read that? Start giving you a commission
Speaker 1: on our results. Is that a quote from transcend that
Speaker 1: I know? No, that's yeah, that is oh yeah, that
Speaker 1: I re quoted, Masle. The title of it is the
Speaker 1: why of Purpose. That's in your section of purpose. Gotcha? Gotcha? Okay,
Speaker 1: let me read it to you. A quote now, okay,
Speaker 1: And this is a quote why Charles Koch talking about
Speaker 1: his north star. Well, my north star remains a society
Speaker 1: and which individuals can realize their potential, a society of
Speaker 1: mutual benefit, and which individuals succeed by creating value for others.
Speaker 1: It would be a more just, inclusive, prosperous, and peaceful
Speaker 1: society than any yet scene. Such a future as within
Speaker 1: our reach if all of us play our part, if
Speaker 1: all of us believe in people. I just want to
Speaker 1: thank you so much for the amazing contributions you've made
Speaker 1: in this world. And you said quote at age eighty five,
Speaker 1: I'm still busy being born, and I want to kind
Speaker 1: of give the last word to you to kind of
Speaker 1: tell me, you know, what are you busy being born doing?
Speaker 1: These days? I am trying to better understand and apply
Speaker 1: principles and learn new principles. But mainly I have over
Speaker 1: one hundred principles I regularly use and I'm constantly trying
Speaker 1: to find the gaps between what I'm doing and what
Speaker 1: we as an organization are doing. And I constantly challenge
Speaker 1: all our people well okay, okay, that's great, and I
Speaker 1: get criticized for this, Well let's celebrate. Okay, I'll celebrate
Speaker 1: here for ten seconds. But now we've got to work
Speaker 1: on how we do better the gap between what we're
Speaker 1: doing and what we could be doing to create value
Speaker 1: for others in a way that benefits all of us,
Speaker 1: that's mutually beneficial. And so that's and then how do
Speaker 1: we do that in society? And so that's that's my
Speaker 1: life's work. And I have a long way to go.
Speaker 1: So I'm learning every day, trying to learn every day
Speaker 1: how to do that better and how to be more effective,
Speaker 1: because as we see in society, we've got a long
Speaker 1: way to go. We sure do. And Masel has this
Speaker 1: phrase virtue pays, So it sounds like maybe a nice
Speaker 1: way of improving society is to make virtue more of
Speaker 1: build into the reward structure and the incentive structure of
Speaker 1: society than just profits. Yeah, I mean, his his concept
Speaker 1: of senergy is right on. That's what we need is
Speaker 1: society that rewards senergy. Charles, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being on my podcast. This is a real delight for
Speaker 1: me to chat with you. Hey, thank you Scott, thanks
Speaker 1: for having me, and once again thanks even more for
Speaker 1: writing this book. It was it really thank you got
Speaker 1: me jazzed up, as you can tell. Thank you thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to react in some way to something you heard,
Speaker 1: I encourage you to join in the discussion at thusycology
Speaker 1: podcast dot com or on our YouTube page thus Ecology Podcast.
Speaker 1: We also put up some videos of some episodes on
Speaker 1: our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check
Speaker 1: that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of
Speaker 1: the show, and tune in next time for more on
Speaker 1: the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.