Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi friends,
Speaker 1: welcome back to work in Progress. I need you all
Speaker 1: to know that teenage me is absolutely losing her mind
Speaker 1: right now, because today we are joined by one of
Speaker 1: my then and now heroes, Jojo Jo Anna Jojo Lovasque,
Speaker 1: chart topping and award winning singer, songwriter, actress, and now
Speaker 1: first time author. You probably know Jojo, who burst onto
Speaker 1: the scene with her self titled album at just thirteen
Speaker 1: years old. Her breakout, Smash and Leave get Out, was
Speaker 1: an anthem for me and probably all of you. It
Speaker 1: led to platinum records and a string of accomplishments and
Speaker 1: a high profile wild life that then seemed to just up.
Speaker 1: Jojo seemed to evaporate from the charts and none of
Speaker 1: us knew where she'd gone, And it turned out she'd
Speaker 1: been embroiled in a legal battle to win back her
Speaker 1: music and her own voice from her label where she
Speaker 1: was trapped for years. And in her new memoir Over
Speaker 1: the Influence, Jojo holds nothing back, she brings her against
Speaker 1: the odd story of adversity and triumph to center stage,
Speaker 1: talking about being raised in a household with parents who
Speaker 1: both battled addiction and depression, to emerging victorious in this
Speaker 1: seemingly never ending lawsuit with her record label, to finally
Speaker 1: figuring out how to put these fragmented pieces of herself
Speaker 1: back together after a period of rebellion and betrayal of
Speaker 1: self that made her just feel mad. She takes all
Speaker 1: of us through these turbulent years that led her to
Speaker 1: where she is now, releasing new music under her own imprint,
Speaker 1: performing in shows and festivals around the world, headlining a
Speaker 1: Broadway show, and were this behind the scenes look at
Speaker 1: her life is so personal and so beautiful and so raw.
Speaker 1: Jojo really broke my heart open in the most beautiful
Speaker 1: ways as I read this, and also made me understand
Speaker 1: things about myself and my own journey that blew my mind.
Speaker 1: And I imagine that her story will do the same
Speaker 1: for you. So let's get into this incredible tale of
Speaker 1: success and heartbreak and redemption and reclamation and a landing
Speaker 1: in resilience that I think is just so unique and
Speaker 1: so special. Let's talk to Jojo Jojo. I'm so excited
Speaker 1: that you're here, and especially because normally when I get
Speaker 1: to sit down with people, you know I'm meeting them.
Speaker 1: Where we are folks know so much about you know,
Speaker 1: people's careers or filmographies or discographies or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: And I normally like to open interviews asking people to
Speaker 1: go back to childhood and like examine the through lines
Speaker 1: and see if they feel like there's connections between themselves
Speaker 1: at eight or nine to the person they are today.
Speaker 1: And what made me so geeked about doing this with
Speaker 1: you today is that in your memoir, the new book,
Speaker 1: Over the Influence, which is so beautiful, you really start
Speaker 1: us as an audience at the beginning, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, she does what I like to do
Speaker 1: on the podcast in the book. How how did you
Speaker 1: decide to just like blow the lid off and let
Speaker 1: everybody into your world?
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me? And I too, am curious,
Speaker 2: so curious about patterns lines, How did we get here?
Speaker 2: And what is the reason and you know, the relationship
Speaker 2: between things? And I feel like our history and even
Speaker 2: the history of our families of Oregon. I think it's
Speaker 2: such good information in understanding ourselves and our world views.
Speaker 2: And Over the Influence is an examination of my experience
Speaker 2: so far. And I spent so much of my teens
Speaker 2: in twenties being and I honest say, I'm over it completely,
Speaker 2: but so much confusion and chaos inside myself and my experience.
Speaker 2: So I think in like putting it in black and white,
Speaker 2: I wanted to start making sense of it for myself
Speaker 2: because as human beings, we're designed to share and to
Speaker 2: connect and to like be storytellers. I just put it
Speaker 2: out there, and I was scared, and I was like,
Speaker 2: who am I to do this? Like is this the
Speaker 2: ultimate self indulgence? Am I just being like? What's the point?
Speaker 2: But it was just a good exercise. And I think
Speaker 2: that everybody, everybody has a story to tell. I believe
Speaker 2: that so wholeheartedly. And we can choose to look at
Speaker 2: things negatively, we can choose to look at things as
Speaker 2: pivot points and opportunities and things that made us grittier
Speaker 2: or you know, resilient or whatever. And it's it was
Speaker 2: just a really interesting experience. I know I've said that
Speaker 2: words so many times, but like, that's what I think about.
Speaker 1: No, I get it, And I think something really profound
Speaker 1: also about deciding to own your story, not just as
Speaker 1: a human, but particularly as a woman in the world,
Speaker 1: because when you gain whatever relative level of success, especially
Speaker 1: as a woman as an independent woman. The world then
Speaker 1: sort of says, well, who do you think you are?
Speaker 1: And men who write memoirs are never accused of being
Speaker 1: self indulgent, but women are like, oh does my story matter?
Speaker 1: Is this self indulgent? Is anybody gonna care? You know?
Speaker 1: And then people will say like, nobody asked, why do.
Speaker 2: You think anyone?
Speaker 1: And it's like, y'all don't do that to men. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, as humans from the
Speaker 1: time were born, we only learn by mirroring each other.
Speaker 1: We learn by observing each other. And I think when
Speaker 1: we can stop performing and actually say the hard thing,
Speaker 1: do the hard thing, be honest about the toughest things,
Speaker 1: we give permission to other people to do that as well.
Speaker 1: And so when you're able to do that as a woman,
Speaker 1: especially as a young woman, a successful woman, a young, beautiful,
Speaker 1: successful woman, all the things that the world wants to
Speaker 1: take you down the minute you achieve and you do
Speaker 1: it anyway, it's like it takes compounding courage. So I'm
Speaker 1: here for it. I'm like, yeah, girl, like put it
Speaker 1: on the page, do the thing.
Speaker 2: But it's exactly what you said. And it's like people
Speaker 2: who have written their stories, particularly well people of all ages.
Speaker 2: But I think of someone like Jeanett mccurty by her
Speaker 2: being courageous, it unlocks something within me to say, you
Speaker 2: know what, let me have the audacity to think about
Speaker 2: myself as a storyteller as a's someone who's actually going
Speaker 2: to write it as well. She's you know, she didn't
Speaker 2: have a ghostwriter. And that gave me the the balls
Speaker 2: I think to be like, Okay, we're the same age. Like,
Speaker 2: I know, I don't have experience in this, but I
Speaker 2: have so much heart and desire to get it right
Speaker 2: for myself and also to stop counting myself out of
Speaker 2: being an authority in my own life, you know, being
Speaker 2: the one who can you know, guide my own course
Speaker 2: as opposed to looking for somebody else who know better
Speaker 2: or whatever. Like my voice is just as important as
Speaker 2: someone else's, and that's I believe that for everybody, you know.
Speaker 2: But it takes us owning that and stacking our claim
Speaker 2: in that. And I will say that that's what I'm
Speaker 2: grateful to be on the other to be like on
Speaker 2: the other side of thirty now, because in my twenties
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the balls to take up space
Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, I felt so ashamed.
Speaker 1: You know, I fully agree. I felt that way all
Speaker 1: through my twenties. I felt like my life was just
Speaker 1: starting at thirty. And what I realized is I was
Speaker 1: terrified through my twenties. The entire decade of my thirties,
Speaker 1: I was growing a lot, but I think I was
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how not to be afraid. And
Speaker 1: then I finally, I finally stopped trying to do it
Speaker 1: everybody else's way at forty. So like the way I
Speaker 1: thought things started for me at thirty, where I was
Speaker 1: like I can't wait to be thirty, I turned forty
Speaker 1: and I was like, thank god, we made it through that. Oh. So, like,
Speaker 1: let me just tell you, it only gets better from
Speaker 1: this vantage point and having having taken the reins for
Speaker 1: yourself and put all of this down. And I think,
Speaker 1: especially when you're an artist, there's something about getting it
Speaker 1: out and on paper that allows you to process in
Speaker 1: ways you don't even know you're not processing before you
Speaker 1: do that, Cause like you've been trained your whole life
Speaker 1: to perform and be good and be professional and be
Speaker 1: on top of it, and you don't even know when
Speaker 1: you're just performing and not living. And when you get
Speaker 1: your life out on paper and you get to read
Speaker 1: it and you get to experience it, like from this
Speaker 1: point with it all down and bound in a book,
Speaker 1: do you feel like you can kind of see that
Speaker 1: through line in your journey back to your childhood now
Speaker 1: in ways you couldn't before you wrote it all down.
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And the Big Sister, I mean, I'm an only
Speaker 2: child and like me, big you are, so we're a
Speaker 2: specific breed. You know where it's it's it makes you
Speaker 2: into a certain type of person, And I think cool.
Speaker 2: But I'm just saying the Big Sister within me to
Speaker 2: my inner child, I want to just wrap her up
Speaker 2: because she was seeds of confusion were planted very very early,
Speaker 2: and shaky ground instability and fight flight freeze. My nervous
Speaker 2: system was really conditioned around getting validation from outside sources
Speaker 2: and influences and also looking for that adulation, that stimulation,
Speaker 2: that sense of everything's going to be okay, because I
Speaker 2: didn't feel things were going to be okay growing up
Speaker 2: parents who both really identified with their addictions. And I'm
Speaker 2: saying it like that because I don't like to like
Speaker 2: in the program, which is where I kind of grew
Speaker 2: up in alcoholics Anonymous because both my parents were either
Speaker 2: into narcotics or alcohol, and a lot of my family too,
Speaker 2: And you know, I just it was weird to me that.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I have an aunt who has like
Speaker 2: fifty sixty years of sobriety now and she still calls
Speaker 2: herself an addict. And I'm like, that's a lot of humbleness.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, it's also kind of wild, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. I'm like, you're not just that,
Speaker 2: but I respect that, like whatever works for you for real,
Speaker 2: who knows. But I saw a lot of struggle and
Speaker 2: difficulty as a kid. I felt like this gift that
Speaker 2: I had been given my voice and the reaction that
Speaker 2: I would get from people when I would use it,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this could take us out of
Speaker 2: like this could be the thing that changes our lives.
Speaker 2: I think thing on Diva's Live, but I could have
Speaker 2: a video on pop up video, you know, like yeah,
Speaker 2: And I was like, maybe this could be our ticket
Speaker 2: out of this thing, our little artmit And.
Speaker 1: And how wild that that voice. If you performed, if
Speaker 1: it was positive, if it was art, if it was pop,
Speaker 1: if it was sexy, if everything was happy, you could
Speaker 1: get out it doubles down on the if you're good enough,
Speaker 1: little girl, you can save everyone around you. And if
Speaker 1: you save people by being good, you can never be sad,
Speaker 1: you can never be bad, you can never be heartbroken,
Speaker 1: you can never be afraid, and like, oh the pressure
Speaker 1: of that, Like I relate to you in that so hard.
Speaker 1: Because the generational trauma and the things that my family
Speaker 1: came from, it was like I have to be the
Speaker 1: perfect one. They did all of this for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, the classic immigration story, all of it. I've
Speaker 1: got to be good, good, good good, and being good
Speaker 1: actually made me incapable of being fully myself for a
Speaker 1: really long time because I ignored everything that wasn't good,
Speaker 1: and I just leaned in to like be a camp
Speaker 1: counselor be a set leader, be a good teammate, be
Speaker 1: a good and it's like you're only half of yourself.
Speaker 2: I mean Sofia, I still find myself doing that very
Speaker 2: very much so, and it's like a but I do
Speaker 2: have more awareness than I did years ago. I think
Speaker 2: my awareness is sharpening and I find myself I'm checking
Speaker 2: in with my heart. I'm like, is it open, is
Speaker 2: it closed? Is it? Am I being robo Joe. That's
Speaker 2: like people around me will be like, oh, I mean
Speaker 2: sometimes you know, or I can clock it in myself,
Speaker 2: like I'm acting like a robot. I don't even know
Speaker 2: how to not be performative, And it really is experiment
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think there's something really unique too for
Speaker 1: women in our industries, like when we analyze the world. Look,
Speaker 1: we know the world's not working very well for us,
Speaker 1: right for women, But we also know the world's not
Speaker 1: working well, at least in our country for men, like
Speaker 1: depression and suicidality and all these things. Yeah, and in
Speaker 1: a way, I think when you are a woman who
Speaker 1: who is the head of your industry, household, it's a
Speaker 1: lot of the pressure that men feel in the patriarchy,
Speaker 1: like the dads and the breadwinners and the whatever. And
Speaker 1: so we get the double feature of like the pressure
Speaker 1: of a patriarch and all the shit that happens to
Speaker 1: us as women in patriarchy. And it is very hard
Speaker 1: when you know, like if I eat, everybody eats. If
Speaker 1: I do well, everyone on my team can pay their bills,
Speaker 1: and so if I don't, they can't. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure.
Speaker 2: You're so right to highlight that it's really interesting and
Speaker 2: I think that I don't know if you relate to this,
Speaker 2: but it it certainly has been. It's been a challenge
Speaker 2: for me in relationships in you know, in relationships with
Speaker 2: men where I don't want to be the man and
Speaker 2: the woman or I don't want to emasculate someone. But
Speaker 2: I have certainly done that. I have certainly, you know,
Speaker 2: been like I literally don't need you for anything because
Speaker 2: I've done all this and I do do all this,
Speaker 2: and that is so not the energy that I I
Speaker 2: don't I don't believe that, but I think I left
Speaker 2: people feeling that way, you know what I mean, because
Speaker 2: of just being in go mode and when you we
Speaker 2: all contain many different sides. We all have masculine and feminine,
Speaker 2: and you have to really be in touch with that
Speaker 2: masculine side to produce and perform and show up. And
Speaker 2: especially when you're like in cycle, if you're like on
Speaker 2: a project, or you're like right now, I'm performing on
Speaker 2: Broadway and I'm promoting a book and I'm putting out
Speaker 2: new music, and I really have to check in with
Speaker 2: myself in the morning and night to actually just like
Speaker 2: put a hand on my heart and you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to ground yourself. Yeah, to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: being and not just doing. It's big and now for
Speaker 1: our sponsors. It's interesting because you talk in the book
Speaker 1: like we're talking about patterns, right, and you talk about
Speaker 1: how you thought for a time that being surrounded by
Speaker 1: addiction and having it be over and discussed in your
Speaker 1: home would prevent you from experiencing that, but that actually
Speaker 1: you found yourself struggling with it, with the alcoholism and
Speaker 1: the substance addiction. Like do you do you feel like
Speaker 1: it was a gradual shift to those patterns coming up
Speaker 1: in you or was there a time like you're saying,
Speaker 1: where maybe you didn't have the practice of checking in
Speaker 1: and then the numbing got easy.
Speaker 2: It was definitely about numbing. I didn't practice for a
Speaker 2: long time. I didn't have tools, and I was just
Speaker 2: so afraid, so afraid of I didn't want to become
Speaker 2: like my parents. I felt self righteous, like I was
Speaker 2: already better than them and like stronger, and like they
Speaker 2: don't have careers and they can't get it together, and
Speaker 2: my dad lives off the government and he just gets
Speaker 2: high all day and blah blah blah. I'm like you know,
Speaker 2: I'm never I could never be me, and I think
Speaker 2: it made me feel, you know, have this grandiose sense
Speaker 2: of self that I I'm just being honest about it.
Speaker 2: I'm not proud of that. But and I remember, you know,
Speaker 2: him coming to like pick me up one day because
Speaker 2: he lived in New Hampshire and when I was living
Speaker 2: in Massachusetts, I was like eighteen, and I was like,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't get in the car with you,
Speaker 2: like you're high, and he's like, you know, don't throw
Speaker 2: stones in a glasshouse, Joanna. Your addiction is like Arnold
Speaker 2: Swarzenegger in your backyard, pumping iron, just waiting for you
Speaker 2: to have a weak moment and just you know it's
Speaker 2: coming for you. You got it on both sides. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: don't speak that over my life. Yeah, And I was like,
Speaker 2: I'll never be me. And the way I think about
Speaker 2: addiction is kind of how doctor Gabor Matte speaks about it,
Speaker 2: which is that it's this hungry ghost inside of us,
Speaker 2: that is this insatiable monster really that needs more things,
Speaker 2: you know, to make it feel okay, to get outside
Speaker 2: of reality, to get outside of the truth. And I
Speaker 2: just didn't want to. I could not sit with myself
Speaker 2: for extendederiods of time for you know, until my mid
Speaker 2: twenties probably, And so for me, it wasn't like, oh
Speaker 2: I was addicted to cocaine or I was addicted to alcohol.
Speaker 2: Like I just didn't discriminate with getting out of my mind,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I could get out of
Speaker 2: my mind with diving into a relationship and enmeshing with
Speaker 2: you know, just sex and love and with substances and
Speaker 2: you know, a binge or you know whatever. Like I
Speaker 2: was just or work. I would be in the studio
Speaker 2: NonStop and nothing was coming from it, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I just got to keep going because it's obviously. And
Speaker 2: then I was like, all of it is my fault.
Speaker 2: Not only have I saken up in this area, but
Speaker 2: you know, my work isn't good enough because you know,
Speaker 2: and then I'm in this lawsuit and I don't legally
Speaker 2: own my voice, and it was just it was a
Speaker 2: perfect storm for me to really hurt myself. And because
Speaker 2: I was so hurt, I was so in pain, I
Speaker 2: was so confused and have a support system or tools around,
Speaker 2: you know, we just in the twenty tens, it was different.
Speaker 2: It just felt like the same conversation help weren't being at.
Speaker 1: No, and especially the way that young women were treated
Speaker 1: in the industry, it was so dark, and I.
Speaker 2: Mean I felt like my job was to stay just
Speaker 2: to be skinny and wait, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like be skinny and just look good and whenever we're
Speaker 2: ready for you, Like, yeah, I know that sounds horrible,
Speaker 2: but this is literally what I was told.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and it's a really it's so hard because
Speaker 1: you achieve this thing that you've always wanted to do,
Speaker 1: and then because you're rare and talented and you've made
Speaker 1: it in some way, then they tell you don't really
Speaker 1: deserve it. It's like a very weird push and pull. It's
Speaker 1: like they want you and they know you're special, but
Speaker 1: if you know you're special, then it risks their ability
Speaker 1: to use you. So it's a constant churn. And you know,
Speaker 1: it took me a long time to understand how women
Speaker 1: would be used as pawns for everyone, for the tabloids,
Speaker 1: for the TV, for the music, for the thing. And
Speaker 1: for a long time I remember feeling like there's so
Speaker 1: much brilliance and service and intellect in me, Why is
Speaker 1: this what you want to write about why is this
Speaker 1: what you want to ask me about? And eventually I
Speaker 1: had to go, oh, because an intellectual woman with opinions
Speaker 1: is not as valuable to you as a tabloid scandal.
Speaker 1: So you'll make a scandal where there isn't any, or
Speaker 1: you'll blame a woman for a man's indiscretion, or you'll like, oh,
Speaker 1: I see, it's a churn and burn. And it's part
Speaker 1: of why I've been so like, I've felt so deeply
Speaker 1: for you, even though this is our first day connecting.
Speaker 1: Like reading the book, I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this woman. I just want to like protect her at
Speaker 1: all costs. It's so much the way I feel watching
Speaker 1: like Demi's documentary, you know, and everybody from her, you know,
Speaker 1: it's Alison and all these women that I've known sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, in acquaintance ways in the industry. Everybody talking
Speaker 1: about what this has been like. And I think about,
Speaker 1: you know, for you signing to a label at twelve,
Speaker 1: it's like it's such a mark of your talent. And
Speaker 1: also you had no ability to advocate for yourself inside
Speaker 1: of this world because you were a kid.
Speaker 2: How have you as.
Speaker 1: You've aged made sense of that because you mentioned like
Speaker 1: you knew that singing could be the way out, you
Speaker 1: knew you could save yourself and your family. You knew
Speaker 1: of the pressure at a young age. But looking back
Speaker 1: at it now, like how do you, big sister that
Speaker 1: little girl.
Speaker 2: So we've spoken to the pressure for sure. But Yo,
Speaker 2: it was a pleasure. Like I loved and still loved
Speaker 2: singing more than anything. Love it. It is my joy.
Speaker 2: It is such a beautiful, such a wonderful experience when
Speaker 2: I'm really connected to that gift and not trying to
Speaker 2: achieve a certain thing. Which is what was? Which is?
Speaker 2: I want to be so clear because I feel like
Speaker 2: there can be a misconception when you start to share
Speaker 2: these things, like if me or Demi or Allison or
Speaker 2: sharing things and it's like are you are you looking
Speaker 2: for people to feel bad for you? Like I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's so not the case. My life is. I love
Speaker 2: my life and I'm very very grateful and I've had
Speaker 2: a lot of really weird experiences, really tough one really
Speaker 2: great ones, but it shaped me into the person I
Speaker 2: am and I'm really cool with her today. But what
Speaker 2: I want to highlight about starting so young is exactly
Speaker 2: what you said that, like, it doesn't allow you to
Speaker 2: shape an authentic sense of self when you are not
Speaker 2: a person but you're a product and you have so
Speaker 2: many cooks in the kitchen and you don't go through
Speaker 2: those normal developmental stages. People aren't really honest with you.
Speaker 2: People are treating you weird, You're getting all yes, is
Speaker 2: when people like Wou would normally say, no, you're not
Speaker 2: having to go through things like that. So how do I?
Speaker 2: And as somebody who was bullied a lot in elementary school,
Speaker 2: in middle school and then became famous still in middle school,
Speaker 2: I know still kind of deal with sometimes when I
Speaker 2: walk into a room feeling like I'm weird, and I'm
Speaker 2: okay with that, but I'm like, oh, people don't really
Speaker 2: like me. I shouldn't really be I don't really fit
Speaker 2: in anywhere.
Speaker 1: I have that too big?
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I do think it's what you said. It almost
Speaker 1: makes me sad that you feel like you have to
Speaker 1: do the thing and get ahead of it and be like,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I don't want you to feel bad.
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful. It's like, it's not that you're not
Speaker 1: too but it is this weird thing where it's like
Speaker 1: you have to clarify always that there was good even
Speaker 1: though there was bad. It's like it's okay to say
Speaker 1: some things have been really amazing and some things have
Speaker 1: been really dumb, Like it just is and it's hard,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's hard when you're a kid. It didn't
Speaker 1: happen to me as early, like I went through a
Speaker 1: lot of bullying, a lot of like even in high school,
Speaker 1: being sort of like brought into the like cool click
Speaker 1: but held at the bottom of it, like I was
Speaker 1: the bottom layer of it. And and so it was
Speaker 1: like you're in, but we're going to make fun of
Speaker 1: you relentlessly, like it's weird.
Speaker 2: I totally relate to that, right, and.
Speaker 1: I felt like I could never figure it out. And
Speaker 1: then it was college, and then I went and started
Speaker 1: working on One Tree Hill, and then all my college
Speaker 1: friends were like, you know, it was the era of
Speaker 1: like the clubs in LA and they'd be like, we
Speaker 1: want to go here and get us a table here
Speaker 1: and do this. And I'd be like, Okay, I'm coming
Speaker 1: home for the weekend. Let's all go out. And then
Speaker 1: it was like what you think you're important? You think
Speaker 1: we're supposed to kiss your ass, and I was like, well, no,
Speaker 1: but you you asked me to get the because you
Speaker 1: said that, wait, I don't, and I I didn't have
Speaker 1: the language and the understanding that I have now then.
Speaker 1: So I spent, you know, the first ten years of
Speaker 1: my career when it looked great from the outside, like
Speaker 1: on this big TV show, feeling constantly paranoid that I
Speaker 1: was doing something wrong, that I was too much or
Speaker 1: not enough, or things were too available or not available
Speaker 1: enough because I wasn't on like a serious show on HBO,
Speaker 1: or like everything was always something was wrong. Yep. And
Speaker 1: I feel really grateful that for a lot of us,
Speaker 1: this period of our life has happened in the normalization
Speaker 1: of therapy and the common conversations around like trauma and
Speaker 1: the spectrum of experience from good to bad. Like I
Speaker 1: asked my mom, I was like, how did you guys
Speaker 1: do this with no therapy?
Speaker 2: You know, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1: But it's like, it is weird that you always feel like,
Speaker 1: because you're quote famous, you have to couch. What was
Speaker 1: hard for you?
Speaker 2: In gratitude, Yeah, I hear you. I think that people
Speaker 2: are so curious about what it's like to be in
Speaker 2: positions of power and access and relative like, right, I
Speaker 2: don't have that much well exactly, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: But my life is like I have a lot to
Speaker 2: be grateful for. I can move in comfort and ease,
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. And I think people are
Speaker 2: curious about that, and some people are jealous about that.
Speaker 2: So I don't know. For me, I just feel like
Speaker 2: because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about
Speaker 2: what it actually feels like and what it actually does,
Speaker 2: and the isolation that it can create, the confusion that
Speaker 2: it can create, particularly from a young age. I just
Speaker 2: I like to speak to the I think people just
Speaker 2: think about it, not in a holistic way of like Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: all this is true and then what about this?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's some of the things that I wanted
Speaker 2: to explore in the book too, Not because I'm looking
Speaker 2: for a badge of honor, because like you're not.
Speaker 1: Trying to have a pity party, You're actually trying to
Speaker 1: be more real.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interested in I'm a curious person, and like
Speaker 2: we talked about from the beginning, like yeah, what was
Speaker 2: it like, how what made you this type of person?
Speaker 2: And why why are you so understanding or why are
Speaker 2: you so you know, wanting to see all sides, because
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of different experiences. I've been at
Speaker 2: the I've seen highs lows, I've been heartbroken, I've broken hearts.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really
Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. I think it's
Speaker 1: really important to embrace the full experience. And I think
Speaker 1: I don't know if you experienced this. Sometimes when I
Speaker 1: get asked to speak to students, I'm like, listen, I
Speaker 1: don't want to ruin your dream, but what I want
Speaker 1: you to have is a realistic dream.
Speaker 2: I don't want to acting students, yeah, any.
Speaker 1: Any kind of artists. I'm like, I don't want you
Speaker 1: to think that you're going to get on set and
Speaker 1: that life is going to be rosy, right it really
Speaker 1: I try to think about it in terms of physics,
Speaker 1: like the pendulum swings in both directions, So the more
Speaker 1: incredible things that happen to you, the harder your life
Speaker 1: is going to get. Also, like, that's just science. It's
Speaker 1: not a personal failing. It's not it's just about equal
Speaker 1: and opposite, you know, reactions to every action, and that
Speaker 1: has really helped me, and I think it's part of
Speaker 1: why I caught myself reading your memoir being like, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: I haven't had the exact experiences you have, but I
Speaker 1: understand what it is to try to navigate through these things.
Speaker 1: You talk about not feeling like you fit in, feeling
Speaker 1: like you're too much, you know, having these experiences that
Speaker 1: are normal for a teenager, but they get magnified in
Speaker 1: this way, and you know, it took me back in
Speaker 1: certain ways to my own you know, teen in college
Speaker 1: years and my first years on my first show, because
Speaker 1: so much of your music was a landscape to those
Speaker 1: times in my own life, and I was like, this
Speaker 1: is such a trip. And I remember even then thinking like, well,
Speaker 1: where did she go? Like where'd our favorite where'd our
Speaker 1: favorite gal go? Like You're on so many of our
Speaker 1: nostalgia mixes that my best friends and I trade around
Speaker 1: all the time. And it was so interesting to read
Speaker 1: about what was happening to you behind the scenes and
Speaker 1: how you got trapped in this label deal because now
Speaker 1: people know more about it, We know about what Taylor
Speaker 1: went through, and she re recorded all her albums and
Speaker 1: we're having these conversations about who owns music as we should,
Speaker 1: and you were struggling with all this in a time
Speaker 1: where nobody was talking about it, yet you you couldn't
Speaker 1: talk about it. So what what was it like to
Speaker 1: feel silenced but also to keep fighting?
Speaker 2: Hmm? I mean it was so maddening, and I was
Speaker 2: going to go. So I put out my first album,
Speaker 2: my first two albums thirteen fifteen, had you know, both
Speaker 2: went platinum and sold millions of records around the world,
Speaker 2: and I had, you know, a couple really really massive songs,
Speaker 2: and and then we're going to wait till I was eighteen,
Speaker 2: so I wouldn't have to, like because I just wanted
Speaker 2: to work. I was like, I don't want to be
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to think about school.
Speaker 1: I just want to like, yeah, the set teacher and
Speaker 1: the thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're going to wait till I was eighteen.
Speaker 2: But then my label lost their distribution and I was beholden,
Speaker 2: as you would be in a contract, beholden to whatever
Speaker 2: they were going through with their bad business feelings. So
Speaker 2: then I was kind of a just attached to their
Speaker 2: wagon basically wherever they went, and they weren't a functioning
Speaker 2: label anymore. So because I didn't own my voice because
Speaker 2: in the contract and anything that I did in a
Speaker 2: commercial way with my voice needed to be approved by them,
Speaker 2: and they just no longer were doing that. Like if
Speaker 2: I got an opportunity to be in a movie and
Speaker 2: I was going to sing in the movie, they would
Speaker 2: just say no because I don't even know why, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. It started to feel like they
Speaker 2: wanted to set taj me. I don't know, I don't
Speaker 2: feel that way today. I just don't choose to look
Speaker 2: at it that At the time, I'm sure it was
Speaker 2: like it was very confusing too, because these were my
Speaker 2: father figures, my uncle figures, my brothers, like these men,
Speaker 2: you know, really took me and shaped me, and they
Speaker 2: felt like family. I mean, the production company I'm assigned
Speaker 2: to it was called the Family. We were the family,
Speaker 2: and it was just heart breaking, heart breaking. And then
Speaker 2: to be in I was going to go to college
Speaker 2: at Northeastern University for cultural anthropology and I was working
Speaker 2: with the sociology department. They were like, you can do
Speaker 2: this kind of a private like a distance learning program,
Speaker 2: like you can do some virtual you can come to
Speaker 2: the school. They were going to work with me, and
Speaker 2: then the label was like, well, why don't you come
Speaker 2: to LA and try to like and we can work
Speaker 2: on music. And I was so like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: they're ready, They're ready to work on music. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't care about college anymore. I'm going to go
Speaker 2: do that. So that was kind of heartbreaking too, and
Speaker 2: then it it never panned out, and I was just
Speaker 2: amster wheel of making music and of seeing fans on
Speaker 2: MySpace at the time being like you know what happened,
Speaker 2: like why aren't you releasing music?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Where'd you go?
Speaker 2: Girl? Where'd you go? And not being able to give
Speaker 2: them a concrete answer because I also felt like I
Speaker 2: needed to play the game like whenever my label was ready,
Speaker 2: that I needed to not burn the bridge completely with
Speaker 2: them because they still I was still under contract with them.
Speaker 2: It was it was so frustrating. My family was worried
Speaker 2: about me, you know. They were like, just just go
Speaker 2: to college, Joe, You're smart, you know, why don't you
Speaker 2: just do that? And I'm like, no. I felt like
Speaker 2: I had to prove something to them, like I didn't
Speaker 2: want to worry about me. I put the weight of
Speaker 2: the world on myself and nobody, nobody asked, and nobody
Speaker 2: asked me to do that, but I that's the position
Speaker 2: I assumed, and then to cope with it. You know,
Speaker 2: I had seen how my family coped, and it seemed
Speaker 2: like drinking to access was the way to do it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I Irish, Catholic, south of Boston and working class family,
Speaker 2: and that's I've seen that a lot. So that's kind
Speaker 2: of where it began, with being in that lawsuit and
Speaker 2: feeling frustrated and also being very embarrassed and ashamed that
Speaker 2: I wasn't on the trajectory that people kept telling me
Speaker 2: in the industry. People were like, oh my god, you're
Speaker 2: this You deserve the world and you're supposed to be
Speaker 2: the biggest star. And I'm like, yeah, I am are
Speaker 2: I you know what I mean. And it was just
Speaker 2: a lot of.
Speaker 1: I'm having this like mind blowing kind of moment because
Speaker 1: this idea of your label being literally named a family.
Speaker 1: People do that a lot on sets. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're a family. We're a family. But families can be
Speaker 1: super toxic and the sort of rude awakening and like trauma.
Speaker 1: I know, I went through on realizing that, like our
Speaker 1: family on my show also had like really toxic men
Speaker 1: and power in it, and that the minute that you
Speaker 1: don't serve the power structure, you become the enemy of
Speaker 1: the family. Like it's it's such whiplash because you think like, well,
Speaker 1: these are my people, and it's like, no, they want
Speaker 1: you to feel like you're they're your people because that
Speaker 1: makes money for everyone, and that can be so painful,
Speaker 1: and like it gives me this, oh, because when everything
Speaker 1: in your life feels really out of control, sometimes the
Speaker 1: thing you you think of is, well, if I'm in
Speaker 1: the right relationship, if I have real love in my life,
Speaker 1: like that can be healing at least. If work is toxic,
Speaker 1: home can be good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I can.
Speaker 1: Look back at my history and see when work has
Speaker 1: been its most toxic that I have made a home
Speaker 1: out of people that had no business feeling like home
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Whooa.
Speaker 1: I so relate Sothia, And it's I'm having like I
Speaker 1: literally am like we're doing a podcast, but I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm in therapy. Oh my god, because you just
Speaker 1: you clicked something for me in my own brain that
Speaker 1: I've been ruminating on for a long time. But like
Speaker 1: it just it just clicked, like a level deeper as
Speaker 1: I've thought about your book. I'm like, wait, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: this this whoa mind blown.
Speaker 2: It's so helpful to be mirrors for each other and
Speaker 2: to you know, to just workshop this stuff. I love,
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: How do you think you started to identify that? Because you,
Speaker 1: you know, you've talked a lot about how even love
Speaker 1: love addiction, sex addiction, like these things aren't as talked
Speaker 1: about as substance based addiction. And for you to talk
Speaker 1: about this again so openly, I'm just so in awe
Speaker 1: of you, Like, how do you think you started to
Speaker 1: identify like, oh, I recognize the pattern of a substance
Speaker 1: as a numbing agent from my family. How do you
Speaker 1: begin to see relationships as a numbing agent for you?
Speaker 1: When does that light bulb come on?
Speaker 2: Starting therapy, starting journey definitely helped me to have more
Speaker 2: frameworks and more tools and just like more self awareness.
Speaker 2: I think I've always been introspective, but having a professional
Speaker 2: to bounce things off of and to you know, have
Speaker 2: her post questions to me and all that, and to
Speaker 2: be someone I really trusted with helping to guide me
Speaker 2: and influence me in a good way. I think that
Speaker 2: that she and she didn't she wasn't like you're a
Speaker 2: love addict or you're a sex addict. But it's like
Speaker 2: you don't discriminate with these things that you were using
Speaker 2: to make you numb out to. You know, you like
Speaker 2: to dissolve into somebody. You've chosen partners that are available
Speaker 2: to just serve your need for feeling good, like sex
Speaker 2: will be a big part of the relationship. They won't
Speaker 2: really have a lot. I mean when I was younger,
Speaker 2: like some of my partners didn't have a lot, a
Speaker 2: whole lot going on in their life, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I was the one in the position of power, and
Speaker 2: I felt like they, you know, wouldn't hurt me because
Speaker 2: I was so hurt within my family or so hurt
Speaker 2: you know, my mom or my dad, and so hurt
Speaker 2: with my career and I was just looking for security
Speaker 2: and safety and pleasure and all those things. And I
Speaker 2: stayed in an on again, off again relationship for a really,
Speaker 2: really long time because it was just so hard to
Speaker 2: step away from somebody who had no boundaries, had no conditions.
Speaker 2: I could mistreat them, I could step up, be with
Speaker 2: other people. I could you know, be unco I could
Speaker 2: be inconsistent, and I was you know that I don't
Speaker 2: want that, and I didn't want that for them, but
Speaker 2: they were going to continue to let me do that,
Speaker 2: and so something had to had to give, and I
Speaker 2: would say after that, I want to get off again dynamic.
Speaker 2: For a long time, I had to be like, I
Speaker 2: am so toxic. And it's not that I it's not
Speaker 2: that I can't have compassion for my younger self and
Speaker 2: understand where that came from, but I was really moving
Speaker 2: in very selfish, toxic ways and that's not how I
Speaker 2: want to live this one life that I have.
Speaker 1: And that's hard. To get to a point where you
Speaker 1: can see that is really hard. And I imagine when
Speaker 1: you look at that version of yourself and then you
Speaker 1: look at where the young version of yourself was sort
Speaker 1: of you know, made the different sorts of toxicity in
Speaker 1: those dynamics, Like how do you say to yourself, Okay,
Speaker 1: I want to shift that, Like instead of leaning into
Speaker 1: this behavior that's destructive, I want to lean into this
Speaker 1: behavior that's constructive. Like how do you begin to rebuild
Speaker 1: up instead of to continue to spiral down.
Speaker 2: I think that starting a process of rebuilding self trust
Speaker 2: because it had been eroded in so many different ways.
Speaker 2: So even just checking in with how does it feel
Speaker 2: when I do this, or how does it feel when
Speaker 2: someone says this, or when I'm in this particular environment,
Speaker 2: or just like being more present as opposed to being
Speaker 2: under the influence of something, constantly being on xanax or
Speaker 2: constantly being high on weed or drinking something, or you know,
Speaker 2: being digmatized or whatever. You know what I mean, Like
Speaker 2: howbout you, I will say. I think after my dad
Speaker 2: passed away, he he lost his struggle with addiction and
Speaker 2: just with overall unhealthiness mind, body, spirit. That changed everything
Speaker 2: for me. And I was like, I'm no better than him.
Speaker 2: I'm no better or worse. Like I was judgmental, but
Speaker 2: I always held out hope that he would change and
Speaker 2: that we would have this amazing relationship. It would it
Speaker 2: would heal us both and you know, all this these things.
Speaker 2: And then I was like, oh, no one's like I
Speaker 2: I could die, like any time anybody can. No one's
Speaker 2: coming to save you. We I had I had adopted
Speaker 2: a perspective of like learned helplessness, that I was in
Speaker 2: this you know, that I was a victim of the industry,
Speaker 2: or I was like in you know, the people looked
Speaker 2: at people felt bad for me, and I like wore
Speaker 2: that scarlet letter and then I just you know, started
Speaker 2: acting bad in my I made poor choices as a
Speaker 2: result of the shame and the embarrassment and the and
Speaker 2: the difficulty some difficulties that I experienced, the deck of
Speaker 2: cards I had been dealt. But I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: so what m hm and now what now what?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I don't want to die. I don't want to hurt
Speaker 2: others I had. It never got so bad for me.
Speaker 2: Like I think of how outspoken Demi's been with their
Speaker 2: story and you know, literally o ding and like looking
Speaker 2: at the edge of death and like peeking out. That
Speaker 2: was not my experience. But losing my father was a
Speaker 2: hinge point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I
Speaker 1: would imagine, you know, you're talking about Demi's experience, for example,
Speaker 1: But but a loss like that is also something that
Speaker 1: will bring you to the edge of an abyss, right,
Speaker 1: and you just have to say where do I go
Speaker 1: from here? And especially after you had so much of
Speaker 1: your life dictated for you and so many things controlled
Speaker 1: by people other than you, that's right to say, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know what it looks like but I know
Speaker 1: I have to take control back. That's a really profound
Speaker 1: moment of change in a life. Do you think that
Speaker 1: that knowing that there needed to be a shift is
Speaker 1: also what enabled you to begin to separate this persona
Speaker 1: of Jojo that's been out in the world from you,
Speaker 1: whole human Joanna.
Speaker 2: I think that when my dad passed, I mean, I've
Speaker 2: been I am a spiritual person. I grew up with
Speaker 2: the framework of Christianity, specifically Catholicism. I'm very and I
Speaker 2: grew up in the choir loft. And I think that
Speaker 2: in music for me and relating to my gift, feels
Speaker 2: very spiritual. Me and my dad had a spiritual connection
Speaker 2: through music, you know, harmonizing together and feeling empathic with
Speaker 2: each other and like just being really connected, feeling each other.
Speaker 2: And I think that when he passed, like since he passed,
Speaker 2: I continue to feel to feel him, I continue to
Speaker 2: feel connected to him, I continue to have conversations with him.
Speaker 2: I continued to see him, like sometimes physically, not like
Speaker 2: not like really really, but like sometimes a flash of
Speaker 2: him in the audience. Sometimes I look back, you know,
Speaker 2: in an airport, and I'm like, you know, just moments
Speaker 2: of moments of delight that take my breath away that
Speaker 2: I don't need to explain to anybody else because they
Speaker 2: need something to me. So I'm saying that to say that,
Speaker 2: I think that with connecting to my spiritual self more
Speaker 2: and with taking solo trips, I started to take solo trips.
Speaker 2: I realized how like stimulated I had been, and I
Speaker 2: was interested in silence. Like my dad this quote right here,
Speaker 2: the Disiderata, and it's a go placidly amidst the noise
Speaker 2: and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
Speaker 2: That he always had that in his bathroom, whatever apartment
Speaker 2: he'd be in, he had this deep ass quote, you know,
Speaker 2: the whole desiderata. And I'm like, man, he was so deep.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what he told me. You loved
Speaker 2: the desert. I want to go to the desert. So
Speaker 2: I went to Sedona, which is another one of my
Speaker 2: you know, big meetingful dud and I just started to
Speaker 2: actually take the time to be alone and to be
Speaker 2: in silence, to listen more than I spoke, and to
Speaker 2: take myself off the hamster wheel of like well sort of,
Speaker 2: because I still haven't met many years of doing this
Speaker 2: and I'm still extricating myself from it in a sense,
Speaker 2: but I'm saying I became really aware that, like I
Speaker 2: was on other people's timelines and I was like, you
Speaker 2: have to do this, you have to put out this album.
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, whoa.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was about to put out my third album that
Speaker 2: I've been waiting ten years to be able to put
Speaker 2: out a third album, and then my dad passed and
Speaker 2: that changed my life. And I'm like, okay, so life
Speaker 2: does not ever go the way you think it's going
Speaker 2: to go. I thought this was supposed to be, you know,
Speaker 2: the big thing. And I'm like, I'm I'm not ready
Speaker 2: to act like a bad bitch now, Yeah, life is
Speaker 2: not about that. Joanna like, I'm not okay. Well just
Speaker 2: talking about myself and the third person, that's gross, but
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I was not okay and
Speaker 2: I couldn't pretend and I needed to sit with that
Speaker 2: part of myself as opposed to be performative, and I didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't get that right all the time.
Speaker 1: But nobody gets everything right all the time. Though. But
Speaker 1: I think even that instinct for you to name yourself
Speaker 1: is like when you zoom out and look at your life,
Speaker 1: you got to say, no, I can't go be that
Speaker 1: performance version of myself right now.
Speaker 2: I have to be here sleep in these in moments.
Speaker 2: I had to carve out. I had to have more balance.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I had been focused on work since I was like
Speaker 2: six years old, and at twenty twenty four, I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I I think my priorities are not right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or that you get so used to the speed,
Speaker 1: Like I'm still trying to figure out how not to
Speaker 1: feel guilty or sad if I take a day off
Speaker 1: and it's like I don't always have to be on
Speaker 1: every call and every zoom and every schedule everything like
Speaker 1: like a day, you know, Like but I'll take I'll
Speaker 1: have a day, I'll have an afternoon, And I panic
Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, it's I haven't had a free
Speaker 1: afternoon in three weeks. What should I do with this time?
Speaker 1: I should do? I should do something meaningful with this time?
Speaker 1: And it's like or not I could just stare.
Speaker 2: At the wall or like go for a walk.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to re parent that like overachiever in me,
Speaker 1: and it sounds like in a way that that period
Speaker 1: of loss made you like big sister, that kid perform
Speaker 1: in you.
Speaker 2: Yeah that either of us had that. Yeah, like we
Speaker 2: are that for ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful to learn that you can do that? Is
Speaker 1: that part of what you hope readers take away from
Speaker 1: the book, Like when you really think about you've put
Speaker 1: your heart in this hardcover, Like when you hand it
Speaker 1: to someone, what do you want them to take away
Speaker 1: from it?
Speaker 2: It's really I've tried to be like it's none of
Speaker 2: my business, but people take away from it, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean.
Speaker 1: But that's so hard when you were like an EmPATH.
Speaker 2: And you're right, it is so hard. I do have
Speaker 2: hopes for this book, you know. My hopes are that
Speaker 2: people think about their own life in maybe a different way,
Speaker 2: or that they're able to see the through lines, like
Speaker 2: you said from the beginning, and maybe have compassion for
Speaker 2: ways that they've been. Yes, maybe I have compassion for
Speaker 2: other people too. You know, the way I think about
Speaker 2: my parents is so different than the way I thought
Speaker 2: about them ten years ago. I think about them now
Speaker 2: is as whole human beings who were people before they
Speaker 2: were my parents, and who you know, everybody does the
Speaker 2: best they can with what they have to a certain
Speaker 2: extent and their mind and I love them. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: you know, and a bunch of other stuff too, And
Speaker 2: so I hope that people feel inspired also to keep going,
Speaker 2: because your story doesn't end when people say, you know
Speaker 2: you're done. I recently had the opportunity to work with
Speaker 2: Cyndi Lauper on a project. She you know, it's crazy
Speaker 2: when people are telling me, like with twenty years as
Speaker 2: a recording artist that like, oh my god, your longevity
Speaker 2: and that is something I'm proud of to be able
Speaker 2: to say, you know, I'm here and I'm stronger than
Speaker 2: I've ever been and I've got there. But in talking
Speaker 2: with Cindy and I was like, you know, can you
Speaker 2: because she's seventy one years old and she is going
Speaker 2: on her final world tour who knows if it'll really
Speaker 2: be the final because she's still killing it. And I
Speaker 2: was like, you know, not what's your secret because I
Speaker 2: know it's not a secret, But I was like, could
Speaker 2: you give me any advice for like, you know, how
Speaker 2: you've just continued to be authentic and reinvent yourself and
Speaker 2: stay creative and in tune and a lot you know,
Speaker 2: like she's so alivened believable to me, and she was like,
Speaker 2: just keep going. She was like, just keep going. I
Speaker 2: know it sounds so simple, but she was like, just
Speaker 2: do things. Just keep doing things basically, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And then she's like and then you look
Speaker 2: back and be like I did a lot of cool things,
Speaker 2: doing things that feel true and always look for the
Speaker 2: truth and for the connection and for and I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, she has like fifty years or you know,
Speaker 2: forty or fifty years in the game. I'm like, that's
Speaker 2: that's aspirational and that's inspiring.
Speaker 1: That's so cool with Broadway and with the new single, Like,
Speaker 1: how does it feel to be sharing your voice again
Speaker 1: on your own terms?
Speaker 2: It feels very liberating. I feel empowered. It also feels
Speaker 2: like a lot like I definitely have to check in
Speaker 2: with myself and be like, yeah, okay, bitch your own
Speaker 2: Broad's like seven shows a week. You know, you promoted
Speaker 2: this book. That's awesome. You just put out a new single,
Speaker 2: Like that's a lot of simulation. Take a nap, take
Speaker 2: a nap. Yeah, and so I But but the truth
Speaker 2: is I feel energized by all these by office, I
Speaker 2: feel really fortunate I feel like it's not draining my soul,
Speaker 2: because I've done many things I felt like it's sucking
Speaker 2: the soul out of me and that I'm doing it
Speaker 2: and I feel stupid or I feel not connected, or
Speaker 2: I feel I really do feel actually connected to this.
Speaker 2: I think that this is in resonance with who I
Speaker 2: am and who I want to be and how I
Speaker 2: want to show up in the world. And I think
Speaker 2: that it will continue to if I continue to do
Speaker 2: things that feel like that, and maybe I can create.
Speaker 2: Then maybe I'll be seventy one one day looking back
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, you know, I really started trusting
Speaker 2: myself around that time doing things that scared me. Being
Speaker 2: on Broadway scared me scares me. You know, it's and
Speaker 2: it's challenging, and but I've lived a lot in my
Speaker 2: life as an only child, as a solo artist, with
Speaker 2: things being about me, and with sharing this book this
Speaker 2: is about me, and you know, but being a part
Speaker 2: of a community a company on Broadway, it's such a
Speaker 2: team sport, and that has been one of the greatest
Speaker 2: joys that I've got to have in the past couple
Speaker 2: of years, is all of us being just as important
Speaker 2: as the next and having the relationships with the people
Speaker 2: behind the scenes and you know, just every single department.
Speaker 2: It's been really it's been awesome. But I'm so curious
Speaker 2: now as to what's going to come next and how
Speaker 2: I can take these things that I've learned and the
Speaker 2: opportunities that I have and support other people on their journeys.
Speaker 2: I have to not just be about me, because it's
Speaker 2: not enough. And I want to celebrate you for the
Speaker 2: work that you do and the way that you have
Speaker 2: I really mean that I've always admired you from Afar
Speaker 2: and I've seen you peripherally, maybe at protest, maybe at
Speaker 2: an event something like that, and I just you are
Speaker 2: such a light and you seem so connected and so
Speaker 2: purpose driven. And it is people like you that that
Speaker 2: really inspire me to be more and to seek to
Speaker 2: seek ways to help and to have conversations that are
Speaker 2: more that move things forward as opposed to just be
Speaker 2: like look it at blush or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know, I always joke, I'm like, I'm not the
Speaker 1: good I'm not good at small talk, but like I'll
Speaker 1: wind up having a version of a therapy session in
Speaker 1: the kitchen corner at the paw You always girl, so
Speaker 1: now we know, now we have each other. It's so
Speaker 1: good as you sit here and you and you think
Speaker 1: about all of this, Like, because what it looks like
Speaker 1: to me from the outside as a person who has
Speaker 1: been a fan for a long time and who feels
Speaker 1: like I got all the things from the book, Like
Speaker 1: it looks to me like everything is coming back to you,
Speaker 1: all these pieces, like you're collecting all of it to
Speaker 1: be you know, your your whole self. But I know
Speaker 1: this is just in a way, the beginning. It's a
Speaker 1: new beginning. It's a reclamation of so many things. And
Speaker 1: now you sit looking at the next phase. So like
Speaker 1: when you look out at life from today, what feels
Speaker 1: like your work in progress right now?
Speaker 2: Ooh, it feels like my work in progress. Definitely to
Speaker 2: be as authentic as possible to question when my like
Speaker 2: default programming comes up and I'm like I need to
Speaker 2: do this, or like I need to it needs to
Speaker 2: sound like this or look like this or whatever, or
Speaker 2: get more people's opinions that I really need. I'm working
Speaker 2: on that because I do feel that for me to
Speaker 2: be able to be of service in the world, that
Speaker 2: I have to be authentic. I have to be not
Speaker 2: performing and I think even to be the type of
Speaker 2: actress that I eventually want to be and to do
Speaker 2: the work that I want to do in musical theater
Speaker 2: and beyond. It's not about performance. Actually, it's about embodiment
Speaker 2: and really dropping in and believing and being authentic even
Speaker 2: in that, you know. Anyway, I'm working on that, and
Speaker 2: I'm working on being more vulnerable even any type of relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 2: dropping my defense, hm hmm. Yeah, I have so many
Speaker 2: things I'm working on. And what you said about this
Speaker 2: reclamation of these different pieces coming together, that's what inspired
Speaker 2: this new song that I would I would be crazy
Speaker 2: not to mention, because it's you gave it the perfect setup.
Speaker 2: It's I was inspired by this art of consugi, this
Speaker 2: Japanese art of consugi, where like ceramics are broken and
Speaker 2: then they're together with like gold and cold, so beautiful,
Speaker 2: and I'm looking at this and I was like, I
Speaker 2: was just really inspired by it, and so me and
Speaker 2: some friends wrote the song and it's called Porcelain and
Speaker 2: it's it feels like Catharsis to me, and it feels like,
Speaker 2: you know, I've run I've run so many miles listening
Speaker 2: to this song because It just makes me want to go,
Speaker 2: It makes me want to let go, It makes me
Speaker 2: want to sweat and cry, and so I wanted to
Speaker 2: share it with people because it makes me feel those
Speaker 2: things well.
Speaker 1: And what an amazing you know idea the metal for that.
Speaker 1: The cracks are the most precious parts.
Speaker 2: Ever, you know, and we're we're all just world is
Speaker 2: human Kinsuhi Really.
Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you for today. This has been
Speaker 1: so great.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you are so amazing.
Speaker 1: You're such a gem. I'm like, I want to come
Speaker 1: see your show. We have to hang out.
Speaker 2: I would love that. Sophia, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: your time and your presence. You're awesome.