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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi friends,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to work in Progress. I need you all

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Speaker 1: to know that teenage me is absolutely losing her mind

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Speaker 1: right now, because today we are joined by one of

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Speaker 1: my then and now heroes, Jojo Jo Anna Jojo Lovasque,

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Speaker 1: chart topping and award winning singer, songwriter, actress, and now

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Speaker 1: first time author. You probably know Jojo, who burst onto

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Speaker 1: the scene with her self titled album at just thirteen

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Speaker 1: years old. Her breakout, Smash and Leave get Out, was

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Speaker 1: an anthem for me and probably all of you. It

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Speaker 1: led to platinum records and a string of accomplishments and

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Speaker 1: a high profile wild life that then seemed to just up.

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Speaker 1: Jojo seemed to evaporate from the charts and none of

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Speaker 1: us knew where she'd gone, And it turned out she'd

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Speaker 1: been embroiled in a legal battle to win back her

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Speaker 1: music and her own voice from her label where she

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Speaker 1: was trapped for years. And in her new memoir Over

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Speaker 1: the Influence, Jojo holds nothing back, she brings her against

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Speaker 1: the odd story of adversity and triumph to center stage,

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Speaker 1: talking about being raised in a household with parents who

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Speaker 1: both battled addiction and depression, to emerging victorious in this

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Speaker 1: seemingly never ending lawsuit with her record label, to finally

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Speaker 1: figuring out how to put these fragmented pieces of herself

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Speaker 1: back together after a period of rebellion and betrayal of

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Speaker 1: self that made her just feel mad. She takes all

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Speaker 1: of us through these turbulent years that led her to

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Speaker 1: where she is now, releasing new music under her own imprint,

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Speaker 1: performing in shows and festivals around the world, headlining a

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Speaker 1: Broadway show, and were this behind the scenes look at

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Speaker 1: her life is so personal and so beautiful and so raw.

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Speaker 1: Jojo really broke my heart open in the most beautiful

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Speaker 1: ways as I read this, and also made me understand

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Speaker 1: things about myself and my own journey that blew my mind.

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Speaker 1: And I imagine that her story will do the same

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Speaker 1: for you. So let's get into this incredible tale of

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Speaker 1: success and heartbreak and redemption and reclamation and a landing

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Speaker 1: in resilience that I think is just so unique and

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Speaker 1: so special. Let's talk to Jojo Jojo. I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: that you're here, and especially because normally when I get

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Speaker 1: to sit down with people, you know I'm meeting them.

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Speaker 1: Where we are folks know so much about you know,

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Speaker 1: people's careers or filmographies or discographies or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: And I normally like to open interviews asking people to

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Speaker 1: go back to childhood and like examine the through lines

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Speaker 1: and see if they feel like there's connections between themselves

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Speaker 1: at eight or nine to the person they are today.

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Speaker 1: And what made me so geeked about doing this with

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Speaker 1: you today is that in your memoir, the new book,

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Speaker 1: Over the Influence, which is so beautiful, you really start

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Speaker 1: us as an audience at the beginning, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, she does what I like to do

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Speaker 1: on the podcast in the book. How how did you

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Speaker 1: decide to just like blow the lid off and let

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Speaker 1: everybody into your world?

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me? And I too, am curious,

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Speaker 2: so curious about patterns lines, How did we get here?

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Speaker 2: And what is the reason and you know, the relationship

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Speaker 2: between things? And I feel like our history and even

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Speaker 2: the history of our families of Oregon. I think it's

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Speaker 2: such good information in understanding ourselves and our world views.

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Speaker 2: And Over the Influence is an examination of my experience

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Speaker 2: so far. And I spent so much of my teens

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Speaker 2: in twenties being and I honest say, I'm over it completely,

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Speaker 2: but so much confusion and chaos inside myself and my experience.

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Speaker 2: So I think in like putting it in black and white,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to start making sense of it for myself

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Speaker 2: because as human beings, we're designed to share and to

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Speaker 2: connect and to like be storytellers. I just put it

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Speaker 2: out there, and I was scared, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: who am I to do this? Like is this the

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Speaker 2: ultimate self indulgence? Am I just being like? What's the point?

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Speaker 2: But it was just a good exercise. And I think

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Speaker 2: that everybody, everybody has a story to tell. I believe

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Speaker 2: that so wholeheartedly. And we can choose to look at

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Speaker 2: things negatively, we can choose to look at things as

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Speaker 2: pivot points and opportunities and things that made us grittier

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Speaker 2: or you know, resilient or whatever. And it's it was

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Speaker 2: just a really interesting experience. I know I've said that

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Speaker 2: words so many times, but like, that's what I think about.

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Speaker 1: No, I get it, And I think something really profound

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Speaker 1: also about deciding to own your story, not just as

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Speaker 1: a human, but particularly as a woman in the world,

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Speaker 1: because when you gain whatever relative level of success, especially

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Speaker 1: as a woman as an independent woman. The world then

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Speaker 1: sort of says, well, who do you think you are?

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Speaker 1: And men who write memoirs are never accused of being

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Speaker 1: self indulgent, but women are like, oh does my story matter?

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Speaker 1: Is this self indulgent? Is anybody gonna care? You know?

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Speaker 1: And then people will say like, nobody asked, why do.

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Speaker 2: You think anyone?

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Speaker 1: And it's like, y'all don't do that to men. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, as humans from the

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Speaker 1: time were born, we only learn by mirroring each other.

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Speaker 1: We learn by observing each other. And I think when

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Speaker 1: we can stop performing and actually say the hard thing,

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Speaker 1: do the hard thing, be honest about the toughest things,

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Speaker 1: we give permission to other people to do that as well.

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Speaker 1: And so when you're able to do that as a woman,

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Speaker 1: especially as a young woman, a successful woman, a young, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: successful woman, all the things that the world wants to

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Speaker 1: take you down the minute you achieve and you do

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Speaker 1: it anyway, it's like it takes compounding courage. So I'm

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Speaker 1: here for it. I'm like, yeah, girl, like put it

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Speaker 1: on the page, do the thing.

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Speaker 2: But it's exactly what you said. And it's like people

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Speaker 2: who have written their stories, particularly well people of all ages.

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Speaker 2: But I think of someone like Jeanett mccurty by her

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Speaker 2: being courageous, it unlocks something within me to say, you

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Speaker 2: know what, let me have the audacity to think about

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Speaker 2: myself as a storyteller as a's someone who's actually going

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Speaker 2: to write it as well. She's you know, she didn't

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Speaker 2: have a ghostwriter. And that gave me the the balls

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Speaker 2: I think to be like, Okay, we're the same age. Like,

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't have experience in this, but I

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Speaker 2: have so much heart and desire to get it right

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Speaker 2: for myself and also to stop counting myself out of

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Speaker 2: being an authority in my own life, you know, being

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Speaker 2: the one who can you know, guide my own course

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Speaker 2: as opposed to looking for somebody else who know better

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Speaker 2: or whatever. Like my voice is just as important as

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Speaker 2: someone else's, and that's I believe that for everybody, you know.

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Speaker 2: But it takes us owning that and stacking our claim

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Speaker 2: in that. And I will say that that's what I'm

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Speaker 2: grateful to be on the other to be like on

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Speaker 2: the other side of thirty now, because in my twenties

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the balls to take up space

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Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, I felt so ashamed.

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Speaker 1: You know, I fully agree. I felt that way all

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Speaker 1: through my twenties. I felt like my life was just

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Speaker 1: starting at thirty. And what I realized is I was

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Speaker 1: terrified through my twenties. The entire decade of my thirties,

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Speaker 1: I was growing a lot, but I think I was

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how not to be afraid. And

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Speaker 1: then I finally, I finally stopped trying to do it

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Speaker 1: everybody else's way at forty. So like the way I

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Speaker 1: thought things started for me at thirty, where I was

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Speaker 1: like I can't wait to be thirty, I turned forty

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Speaker 1: and I was like, thank god, we made it through that. Oh. So, like,

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Speaker 1: let me just tell you, it only gets better from

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Speaker 1: this vantage point and having having taken the reins for

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Speaker 1: yourself and put all of this down. And I think,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're an artist, there's something about getting it

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Speaker 1: out and on paper that allows you to process in

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Speaker 1: ways you don't even know you're not processing before you

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Speaker 1: do that, Cause like you've been trained your whole life

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Speaker 1: to perform and be good and be professional and be

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Speaker 1: on top of it, and you don't even know when

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Speaker 1: you're just performing and not living. And when you get

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Speaker 1: your life out on paper and you get to read

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Speaker 1: it and you get to experience it, like from this

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Speaker 1: point with it all down and bound in a book,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like you can kind of see that

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Speaker 1: through line in your journey back to your childhood now

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Speaker 1: in ways you couldn't before you wrote it all down.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? And the Big Sister, I mean, I'm an only

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Speaker 2: child and like me, big you are, so we're a

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Speaker 2: specific breed. You know where it's it's it makes you

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Speaker 2: into a certain type of person, And I think cool.

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Speaker 2: But I'm just saying the Big Sister within me to

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Speaker 2: my inner child, I want to just wrap her up

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Speaker 2: because she was seeds of confusion were planted very very early,

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Speaker 2: and shaky ground instability and fight flight freeze. My nervous

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Speaker 2: system was really conditioned around getting validation from outside sources

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Speaker 2: and influences and also looking for that adulation, that stimulation,

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Speaker 2: that sense of everything's going to be okay, because I

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Speaker 2: didn't feel things were going to be okay growing up

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Speaker 2: parents who both really identified with their addictions. And I'm

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Speaker 2: saying it like that because I don't like to like

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Speaker 2: in the program, which is where I kind of grew

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Speaker 2: up in alcoholics Anonymous because both my parents were either

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Speaker 2: into narcotics or alcohol, and a lot of my family too,

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Speaker 2: And you know, I just it was weird to me that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, I have an aunt who has like

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Speaker 2: fifty sixty years of sobriety now and she still calls

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Speaker 2: herself an addict. And I'm like, that's a lot of humbleness.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know, it's also kind of wild, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. I'm like, you're not just that,

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Speaker 2: but I respect that, like whatever works for you for real,

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Speaker 2: who knows. But I saw a lot of struggle and

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Speaker 2: difficulty as a kid. I felt like this gift that

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Speaker 2: I had been given my voice and the reaction that

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Speaker 2: I would get from people when I would use it,

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this could take us out of

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Speaker 2: like this could be the thing that changes our lives.

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Speaker 2: I think thing on Diva's Live, but I could have

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Speaker 2: a video on pop up video, you know, like yeah,

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Speaker 2: And I was like, maybe this could be our ticket

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Speaker 2: out of this thing, our little artmit And.

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Speaker 1: And how wild that that voice. If you performed, if

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Speaker 1: it was positive, if it was art, if it was pop,

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Speaker 1: if it was sexy, if everything was happy, you could

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Speaker 1: get out it doubles down on the if you're good enough,

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Speaker 1: little girl, you can save everyone around you. And if

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Speaker 1: you save people by being good, you can never be sad,

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Speaker 1: you can never be bad, you can never be heartbroken,

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Speaker 1: you can never be afraid, and like, oh the pressure

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Speaker 1: of that, Like I relate to you in that so hard.

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Speaker 1: Because the generational trauma and the things that my family

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Speaker 1: came from, it was like I have to be the

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Speaker 1: perfect one. They did all of this for me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, the classic immigration story, all of it. I've

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Speaker 1: got to be good, good, good good, and being good

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Speaker 1: actually made me incapable of being fully myself for a

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Speaker 1: really long time because I ignored everything that wasn't good,

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Speaker 1: and I just leaned in to like be a camp

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Speaker 1: counselor be a set leader, be a good teammate, be

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Speaker 1: a good and it's like you're only half of yourself.

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Speaker 2: I mean Sofia, I still find myself doing that very

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Speaker 2: very much so, and it's like a but I do

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Speaker 2: have more awareness than I did years ago. I think

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Speaker 2: my awareness is sharpening and I find myself I'm checking

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Speaker 2: in with my heart. I'm like, is it open, is

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Speaker 2: it closed? Is it? Am I being robo Joe. That's

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Speaker 2: like people around me will be like, oh, I mean

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Speaker 2: sometimes you know, or I can clock it in myself,

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Speaker 2: like I'm acting like a robot. I don't even know

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Speaker 2: how to not be performative, And it really is experiment

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think there's something really unique too for

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Speaker 1: women in our industries, like when we analyze the world. Look,

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Speaker 1: we know the world's not working very well for us,

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Speaker 1: right for women, But we also know the world's not

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Speaker 1: working well, at least in our country for men, like

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Speaker 1: depression and suicidality and all these things. Yeah, and in

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Speaker 1: a way, I think when you are a woman who

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Speaker 1: who is the head of your industry, household, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot of the pressure that men feel in the patriarchy,

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Speaker 1: like the dads and the breadwinners and the whatever. And

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Speaker 1: so we get the double feature of like the pressure

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Speaker 1: of a patriarch and all the shit that happens to

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Speaker 1: us as women in patriarchy. And it is very hard

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Speaker 1: when you know, like if I eat, everybody eats. If

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Speaker 1: I do well, everyone on my team can pay their bills,

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Speaker 1: and so if I don't, they can't. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: of pressure.

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Speaker 2: You're so right to highlight that it's really interesting and

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Speaker 2: I think that I don't know if you relate to this,

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Speaker 2: but it it certainly has been. It's been a challenge

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Speaker 2: for me in relationships in you know, in relationships with

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Speaker 2: men where I don't want to be the man and

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Speaker 2: the woman or I don't want to emasculate someone. But

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Speaker 2: I have certainly done that. I have certainly, you know,

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Speaker 2: been like I literally don't need you for anything because

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Speaker 2: I've done all this and I do do all this,

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Speaker 2: and that is so not the energy that I I

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Speaker 2: don't I don't believe that, but I think I left

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Speaker 2: people feeling that way, you know what I mean, because

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Speaker 2: of just being in go mode and when you we

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Speaker 2: all contain many different sides. We all have masculine and feminine,

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Speaker 2: and you have to really be in touch with that

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Speaker 2: masculine side to produce and perform and show up. And

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Speaker 2: especially when you're like in cycle, if you're like on

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Speaker 2: a project, or you're like right now, I'm performing on

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Speaker 2: Broadway and I'm promoting a book and I'm putting out

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Speaker 2: new music, and I really have to check in with

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Speaker 2: myself in the morning and night to actually just like

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Speaker 2: put a hand on my heart and you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to ground yourself. Yeah, to make sure that you're

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Speaker 1: being and not just doing. It's big and now for

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Speaker 1: our sponsors. It's interesting because you talk in the book

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Speaker 1: like we're talking about patterns, right, and you talk about

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Speaker 1: how you thought for a time that being surrounded by

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Speaker 1: addiction and having it be over and discussed in your

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Speaker 1: home would prevent you from experiencing that, but that actually

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Speaker 1: you found yourself struggling with it, with the alcoholism and

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Speaker 1: the substance addiction. Like do you do you feel like

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Speaker 1: it was a gradual shift to those patterns coming up

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Speaker 1: in you or was there a time like you're saying,

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Speaker 1: where maybe you didn't have the practice of checking in

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Speaker 1: and then the numbing got easy.

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Speaker 2: It was definitely about numbing. I didn't practice for a

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Speaker 2: long time. I didn't have tools, and I was just

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Speaker 2: so afraid, so afraid of I didn't want to become

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Speaker 2: like my parents. I felt self righteous, like I was

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Speaker 2: already better than them and like stronger, and like they

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Speaker 2: don't have careers and they can't get it together, and

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Speaker 2: my dad lives off the government and he just gets

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Speaker 2: high all day and blah blah blah. I'm like you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm never I could never be me, and I think

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Speaker 2: it made me feel, you know, have this grandiose sense

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Speaker 2: of self that I I'm just being honest about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm not proud of that. But and I remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: him coming to like pick me up one day because

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Speaker 2: he lived in New Hampshire and when I was living

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Speaker 2: in Massachusetts, I was like eighteen, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I can't get in the car with you,

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Speaker 2: like you're high, and he's like, you know, don't throw

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Speaker 2: stones in a glasshouse, Joanna. Your addiction is like Arnold

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Speaker 2: Swarzenegger in your backyard, pumping iron, just waiting for you

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Speaker 2: to have a weak moment and just you know it's

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Speaker 2: coming for you. You got it on both sides. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: don't speak that over my life. Yeah, And I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'll never be me. And the way I think about

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Speaker 2: addiction is kind of how doctor Gabor Matte speaks about it,

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Speaker 2: which is that it's this hungry ghost inside of us,

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Speaker 2: that is this insatiable monster really that needs more things,

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Speaker 2: you know, to make it feel okay, to get outside

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Speaker 2: of reality, to get outside of the truth. And I

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Speaker 2: just didn't want to. I could not sit with myself

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Speaker 2: for extendederiods of time for you know, until my mid

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Speaker 2: twenties probably, And so for me, it wasn't like, oh

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Speaker 2: I was addicted to cocaine or I was addicted to alcohol.

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Speaker 2: Like I just didn't discriminate with getting out of my mind,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I could get out of

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Speaker 2: my mind with diving into a relationship and enmeshing with

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Speaker 2: you know, just sex and love and with substances and

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Speaker 2: you know, a binge or you know whatever. Like I

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Speaker 2: was just or work. I would be in the studio

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Speaker 2: NonStop and nothing was coming from it, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just got to keep going because it's obviously. And

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Speaker 2: then I was like, all of it is my fault.

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Speaker 2: Not only have I saken up in this area, but

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Speaker 2: you know, my work isn't good enough because you know,

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Speaker 2: and then I'm in this lawsuit and I don't legally

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Speaker 2: own my voice, and it was just it was a

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Speaker 2: perfect storm for me to really hurt myself. And because

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Speaker 2: I was so hurt, I was so in pain, I

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Speaker 2: was so confused and have a support system or tools around,

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Speaker 2: you know, we just in the twenty tens, it was different.

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Speaker 2: It just felt like the same conversation help weren't being at.

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Speaker 1: No, and especially the way that young women were treated

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Speaker 1: in the industry, it was so dark, and I.

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Speaker 2: Mean I felt like my job was to stay just

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Speaker 2: to be skinny and wait, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Like be skinny and just look good and whenever we're

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Speaker 2: ready for you, Like, yeah, I know that sounds horrible,

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Speaker 2: but this is literally what I was told.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and it's a really it's so hard because

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Speaker 1: you achieve this thing that you've always wanted to do,

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Speaker 1: and then because you're rare and talented and you've made

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Speaker 1: it in some way, then they tell you don't really

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Speaker 1: deserve it. It's like a very weird push and pull. It's

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Speaker 1: like they want you and they know you're special, but

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Speaker 1: if you know you're special, then it risks their ability

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Speaker 1: to use you. So it's a constant churn. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it took me a long time to understand how women

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Speaker 1: would be used as pawns for everyone, for the tabloids,

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Speaker 1: for the TV, for the music, for the thing. And

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Speaker 1: for a long time I remember feeling like there's so

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Speaker 1: much brilliance and service and intellect in me, Why is

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Speaker 1: this what you want to write about why is this

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Speaker 1: what you want to ask me about? And eventually I

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Speaker 1: had to go, oh, because an intellectual woman with opinions

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Speaker 1: is not as valuable to you as a tabloid scandal.

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Speaker 1: So you'll make a scandal where there isn't any, or

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Speaker 1: you'll blame a woman for a man's indiscretion, or you'll like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see, it's a churn and burn. And it's part

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Speaker 1: of why I've been so like, I've felt so deeply

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Speaker 1: for you, even though this is our first day connecting.

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Speaker 1: Like reading the book, I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this woman. I just want to like protect her at

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Speaker 1: all costs. It's so much the way I feel watching

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Speaker 1: like Demi's documentary, you know, and everybody from her, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's Alison and all these women that I've known sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, in acquaintance ways in the industry. Everybody talking

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Speaker 1: about what this has been like. And I think about,

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Speaker 1: you know, for you signing to a label at twelve,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's such a mark of your talent. And

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Speaker 1: also you had no ability to advocate for yourself inside

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Speaker 1: of this world because you were a kid.

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Speaker 2: How have you as.

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Speaker 1: You've aged made sense of that because you mentioned like

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Speaker 1: you knew that singing could be the way out, you

365
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Speaker 1: knew you could save yourself and your family. You knew

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Speaker 1: of the pressure at a young age. But looking back

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Speaker 1: at it now, like how do you, big sister that

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Speaker 1: little girl.

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Speaker 2: So we've spoken to the pressure for sure. But Yo,

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Speaker 2: it was a pleasure. Like I loved and still loved

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Speaker 2: singing more than anything. Love it. It is my joy.

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Speaker 2: It is such a beautiful, such a wonderful experience when

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Speaker 2: I'm really connected to that gift and not trying to

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Speaker 2: achieve a certain thing. Which is what was? Which is?

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Speaker 2: I want to be so clear because I feel like

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Speaker 2: there can be a misconception when you start to share

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Speaker 2: these things, like if me or Demi or Allison or

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Speaker 2: sharing things and it's like are you are you looking

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Speaker 2: for people to feel bad for you? Like I'm like,

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Speaker 2: that's so not the case. My life is. I love

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Speaker 2: my life and I'm very very grateful and I've had

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Speaker 2: a lot of really weird experiences, really tough one really

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Speaker 2: great ones, but it shaped me into the person I

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Speaker 2: am and I'm really cool with her today. But what

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Speaker 2: I want to highlight about starting so young is exactly

386
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Speaker 2: what you said that, like, it doesn't allow you to

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Speaker 2: shape an authentic sense of self when you are not

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00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: a person but you're a product and you have so

389
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: many cooks in the kitchen and you don't go through

390
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: those normal developmental stages. People aren't really honest with you.

391
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Speaker 2: People are treating you weird, You're getting all yes, is

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Speaker 2: when people like Wou would normally say, no, you're not

393
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Speaker 2: having to go through things like that. So how do I?

394
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Speaker 2: And as somebody who was bullied a lot in elementary school,

395
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Speaker 2: in middle school and then became famous still in middle school,

396
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Speaker 2: I know still kind of deal with sometimes when I

397
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: walk into a room feeling like I'm weird, and I'm

398
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 2: okay with that, but I'm like, oh, people don't really

399
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: like me. I shouldn't really be I don't really fit

400
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Speaker 2: in anywhere.

401
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: I have that too big?

402
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And I do think it's what you said. It almost

404
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 1: makes me sad that you feel like you have to

405
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: do the thing and get ahead of it and be like,

406
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I don't want you to feel bad.

407
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful. It's like, it's not that you're not

408
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: too but it is this weird thing where it's like

409
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: you have to clarify always that there was good even

410
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: though there was bad. It's like it's okay to say

411
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: some things have been really amazing and some things have

412
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: been really dumb, Like it just is and it's hard,

413
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Speaker 1: and yeah, it's hard when you're a kid. It didn't

414
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Speaker 1: happen to me as early, like I went through a

415
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: lot of bullying, a lot of like even in high school,

416
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: being sort of like brought into the like cool click

417
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Speaker 1: but held at the bottom of it, like I was

418
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: the bottom layer of it. And and so it was

419
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: like you're in, but we're going to make fun of

420
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Speaker 1: you relentlessly, like it's weird.

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Speaker 2: I totally relate to that, right, and.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I could never figure it out. And

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Speaker 1: then it was college, and then I went and started

424
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: working on One Tree Hill, and then all my college

425
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: friends were like, you know, it was the era of

426
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: like the clubs in LA and they'd be like, we

427
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: want to go here and get us a table here

428
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: and do this. And I'd be like, Okay, I'm coming

429
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Speaker 1: home for the weekend. Let's all go out. And then

430
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: it was like what you think you're important? You think

431
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: we're supposed to kiss your ass, and I was like, well, no,

432
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: but you you asked me to get the because you

433
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: said that, wait, I don't, and I I didn't have

434
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: the language and the understanding that I have now then.

435
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: So I spent, you know, the first ten years of

436
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 1: my career when it looked great from the outside, like

437
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: on this big TV show, feeling constantly paranoid that I

438
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: was doing something wrong, that I was too much or

439
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: not enough, or things were too available or not available

440
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: enough because I wasn't on like a serious show on HBO,

441
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: or like everything was always something was wrong. Yep. And

442
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: I feel really grateful that for a lot of us,

443
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: this period of our life has happened in the normalization

444
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: of therapy and the common conversations around like trauma and

445
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: the spectrum of experience from good to bad. Like I

446
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: asked my mom, I was like, how did you guys

447
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: do this with no therapy?

448
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: You know, I can't even imagine.

449
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: But it's like, it is weird that you always feel like,

450
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: because you're quote famous, you have to couch. What was

451
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: hard for you?

452
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: In gratitude, Yeah, I hear you. I think that people

453
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: are so curious about what it's like to be in

454
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: positions of power and access and relative like, right, I

455
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 2: don't have that much well exactly, you know what I'm saying.

456
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: But my life is like I have a lot to

457
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: be grateful for. I can move in comfort and ease,

458
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. And I think people are

459
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: curious about that, and some people are jealous about that.

460
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: So I don't know. For me, I just feel like

461
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about

462
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: what it actually feels like and what it actually does,

463
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: and the isolation that it can create, the confusion that

464
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: it can create, particularly from a young age. I just

465
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: I like to speak to the I think people just

466
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: think about it, not in a holistic way of like Okay, yeah,

467
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: all this is true and then what about this?

468
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

469
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 2: I think that's some of the things that I wanted

470
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: to explore in the book too, Not because I'm looking

471
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: for a badge of honor, because like you're not.

472
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: Trying to have a pity party, You're actually trying to

473
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: be more real.

474
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interested in I'm a curious person, and like

475
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: we talked about from the beginning, like yeah, what was

476
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: it like, how what made you this type of person?

477
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: And why why are you so understanding or why are

478
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: you so you know, wanting to see all sides, because

479
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of different experiences. I've been at

480
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: the I've seen highs lows, I've been heartbroken, I've broken hearts.

481
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really

482
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. I think it's

483
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: really important to embrace the full experience. And I think

484
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if you experienced this. Sometimes when I

485
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: get asked to speak to students, I'm like, listen, I

486
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: don't want to ruin your dream, but what I want

487
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: you to have is a realistic dream.

488
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to acting students, yeah, any.

489
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: Any kind of artists. I'm like, I don't want you

490
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: to think that you're going to get on set and

491
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: that life is going to be rosy, right it really

492
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: I try to think about it in terms of physics,

493
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: like the pendulum swings in both directions, So the more

494
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: incredible things that happen to you, the harder your life

495
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: is going to get. Also, like, that's just science. It's

496
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: not a personal failing. It's not it's just about equal

497
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: and opposite, you know, reactions to every action, and that

498
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: has really helped me, and I think it's part of

499
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: why I caught myself reading your memoir being like, yes, exactly,

500
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: I haven't had the exact experiences you have, but I

501
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: understand what it is to try to navigate through these things.

502
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: You talk about not feeling like you fit in, feeling

503
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: like you're too much, you know, having these experiences that

504
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: are normal for a teenager, but they get magnified in

505
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,239
Speaker 1: this way, and you know, it took me back in

506
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: certain ways to my own you know, teen in college

507
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: years and my first years on my first show, because

508
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: so much of your music was a landscape to those

509
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: times in my own life, and I was like, this

510
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:51,239
Speaker 1: is such a trip. And I remember even then thinking like, well,

511
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: where did she go? Like where'd our favorite where'd our

512
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: favorite gal go? Like You're on so many of our

513
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: nostalgia mixes that my best friends and I trade around

514
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: all the time. And it was so interesting to read

515
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: about what was happening to you behind the scenes and

516
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: how you got trapped in this label deal because now

517
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: people know more about it, We know about what Taylor

518
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: went through, and she re recorded all her albums and

519
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: we're having these conversations about who owns music as we should,

520
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: and you were struggling with all this in a time

521
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: where nobody was talking about it, yet you you couldn't

522
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: talk about it. So what what was it like to

523
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: feel silenced but also to keep fighting?

524
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: Hmm? I mean it was so maddening, and I was

525
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: going to go. So I put out my first album,

526
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: my first two albums thirteen fifteen, had you know, both

527
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: went platinum and sold millions of records around the world,

528
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: and I had, you know, a couple really really massive songs,

529
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: and and then we're going to wait till I was eighteen,

530
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: so I wouldn't have to, like because I just wanted

531
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: to work. I was like, I don't want to be

532
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to think about school.

533
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: I just want to like, yeah, the set teacher and

534
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: the thing.

535
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're going to wait till I was eighteen.

536
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: But then my label lost their distribution and I was beholden,

537
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: as you would be in a contract, beholden to whatever

538
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: they were going through with their bad business feelings. So

539
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: then I was kind of a just attached to their

540
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: wagon basically wherever they went, and they weren't a functioning

541
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: label anymore. So because I didn't own my voice because

542
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: in the contract and anything that I did in a

543
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: commercial way with my voice needed to be approved by them,

544
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: and they just no longer were doing that. Like if

545
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: I got an opportunity to be in a movie and

546
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: I was going to sing in the movie, they would

547
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: just say no because I don't even know why, you

548
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: know what I mean. It started to feel like they

549
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: wanted to set taj me. I don't know, I don't

550
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: feel that way today. I just don't choose to look

551
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: at it that At the time, I'm sure it was

552
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: like it was very confusing too, because these were my

553
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: father figures, my uncle figures, my brothers, like these men,

554
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: you know, really took me and shaped me, and they

555
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: felt like family. I mean, the production company I'm assigned

556
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: to it was called the Family. We were the family,

557
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: and it was just heart breaking, heart breaking. And then

558
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: to be in I was going to go to college

559
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: at Northeastern University for cultural anthropology and I was working

560
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: with the sociology department. They were like, you can do

561
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: this kind of a private like a distance learning program,

562
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: like you can do some virtual you can come to

563
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: the school. They were going to work with me, and

564
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 2: then the label was like, well, why don't you come

565
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: to LA and try to like and we can work

566
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: on music. And I was so like, oh my god,

567
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: they're ready, They're ready to work on music. I'm like,

568
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: I don't care about college anymore. I'm going to go

569
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: do that. So that was kind of heartbreaking too, and

570
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: then it it never panned out, and I was just

571
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: amster wheel of making music and of seeing fans on

572
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: MySpace at the time being like you know what happened,

573
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: like why aren't you releasing music?

574
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: Yeah? Where'd you go?

575
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 2: Girl? Where'd you go? And not being able to give

576
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: them a concrete answer because I also felt like I

577
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: needed to play the game like whenever my label was ready,

578
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: that I needed to not burn the bridge completely with

579
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: them because they still I was still under contract with them.

580
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: It was it was so frustrating. My family was worried

581
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: about me, you know. They were like, just just go

582
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: to college, Joe, You're smart, you know, why don't you

583
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: just do that? And I'm like, no. I felt like

584
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: I had to prove something to them, like I didn't

585
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: want to worry about me. I put the weight of

586
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,439
Speaker 2: the world on myself and nobody, nobody asked, and nobody

587
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: asked me to do that, but I that's the position

588
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: I assumed, and then to cope with it. You know,

589
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: I had seen how my family coped, and it seemed

590
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: like drinking to access was the way to do it.

591
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: You know.

592
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: I Irish, Catholic, south of Boston and working class family,

593
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: and that's I've seen that a lot. So that's kind

594
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: of where it began, with being in that lawsuit and

595
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: feeling frustrated and also being very embarrassed and ashamed that

596
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 2: I wasn't on the trajectory that people kept telling me

597
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: in the industry. People were like, oh my god, you're

598
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: this You deserve the world and you're supposed to be

599
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: the biggest star. And I'm like, yeah, I am are

600
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: I you know what I mean. And it was just

601
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: a lot of.

602
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm having this like mind blowing kind of moment because

603
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: this idea of your label being literally named a family.

604
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: People do that a lot on sets. They're like, oh,

605
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: we're a family. We're a family. But families can be

606
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 1: super toxic and the sort of rude awakening and like trauma.

607
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: I know, I went through on realizing that, like our

608
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: family on my show also had like really toxic men

609
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: and power in it, and that the minute that you

610
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: don't serve the power structure, you become the enemy of

611
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: the family. Like it's it's such whiplash because you think like, well,

612
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: these are my people, and it's like, no, they want

613
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: you to feel like you're they're your people because that

614
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: makes money for everyone, and that can be so painful,

615
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: and like it gives me this, oh, because when everything

616
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: in your life feels really out of control, sometimes the

617
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: thing you you think of is, well, if I'm in

618
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: the right relationship, if I have real love in my life,

619
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: like that can be healing at least. If work is toxic,

620
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 1: home can be good.

621
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I can.

622
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: Look back at my history and see when work has

623
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: been its most toxic that I have made a home

624
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: out of people that had no business feeling like home

625
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: to me.

626
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: Whooa.

627
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: I so relate Sothia, And it's I'm having like I

628
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: literally am like we're doing a podcast, but I feel

629
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: like I'm in therapy. Oh my god, because you just

630
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: you clicked something for me in my own brain that

631
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: I've been ruminating on for a long time. But like

632
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: it just it just clicked, like a level deeper as

633
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: I've thought about your book. I'm like, wait, yes, yes,

634
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: this this whoa mind blown.

635
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: It's so helpful to be mirrors for each other and

636
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: to you know, to just workshop this stuff. I love,

637
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: I love that.

638
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: How do you think you started to identify that? Because you,

639
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, you've talked a lot about how even love

640
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: love addiction, sex addiction, like these things aren't as talked

641
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: about as substance based addiction. And for you to talk

642
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: about this again so openly, I'm just so in awe

643
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: of you, Like, how do you think you started to

644
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: identify like, oh, I recognize the pattern of a substance

645
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: as a numbing agent from my family. How do you

646
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: begin to see relationships as a numbing agent for you?

647
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: When does that light bulb come on?

648
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: Starting therapy, starting journey definitely helped me to have more

649
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: frameworks and more tools and just like more self awareness.

650
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: I think I've always been introspective, but having a professional

651
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: to bounce things off of and to you know, have

652
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: her post questions to me and all that, and to

653
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: be someone I really trusted with helping to guide me

654
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 2: and influence me in a good way. I think that

655
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: that she and she didn't she wasn't like you're a

656
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: love addict or you're a sex addict. But it's like

657
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 2: you don't discriminate with these things that you were using

658
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: to make you numb out to. You know, you like

659
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: to dissolve into somebody. You've chosen partners that are available

660
00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: to just serve your need for feeling good, like sex

661
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: will be a big part of the relationship. They won't

662
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: really have a lot. I mean when I was younger,

663
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: like some of my partners didn't have a lot, a

664
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: whole lot going on in their life, and I was like,

665
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: I was the one in the position of power, and

666
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: I felt like they, you know, wouldn't hurt me because

667
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 2: I was so hurt within my family or so hurt

668
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: you know, my mom or my dad, and so hurt

669
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: with my career and I was just looking for security

670
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 2: and safety and pleasure and all those things. And I

671
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: stayed in an on again, off again relationship for a really,

672
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: really long time because it was just so hard to

673
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: step away from somebody who had no boundaries, had no conditions.

674
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: I could mistreat them, I could step up, be with

675
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: other people. I could you know, be unco I could

676
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 2: be inconsistent, and I was you know that I don't

677
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: want that, and I didn't want that for them, but

678
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: they were going to continue to let me do that,

679
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: and so something had to had to give, and I

680
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 2: would say after that, I want to get off again dynamic.

681
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: For a long time, I had to be like, I

682
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: am so toxic. And it's not that I it's not

683
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: that I can't have compassion for my younger self and

684
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: understand where that came from, but I was really moving

685
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 2: in very selfish, toxic ways and that's not how I

686
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 2: want to live this one life that I have.

687
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: And that's hard. To get to a point where you

688
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: can see that is really hard. And I imagine when

689
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: you look at that version of yourself and then you

690
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: look at where the young version of yourself was sort

691
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: of you know, made the different sorts of toxicity in

692
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: those dynamics, Like how do you say to yourself, Okay,

693
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: I want to shift that, Like instead of leaning into

694
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: this behavior that's destructive, I want to lean into this

695
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: behavior that's constructive. Like how do you begin to rebuild

696
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: up instead of to continue to spiral down.

697
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: I think that starting a process of rebuilding self trust

698
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: because it had been eroded in so many different ways.

699
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: So even just checking in with how does it feel

700
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: when I do this, or how does it feel when

701
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: someone says this, or when I'm in this particular environment,

702
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: or just like being more present as opposed to being

703
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: under the influence of something, constantly being on xanax or

704
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: constantly being high on weed or drinking something, or you know,

705
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 2: being digmatized or whatever. You know what I mean, Like

706
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: howbout you, I will say. I think after my dad

707
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 2: passed away, he he lost his struggle with addiction and

708
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: just with overall unhealthiness mind, body, spirit. That changed everything

709
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: for me. And I was like, I'm no better than him.

710
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: I'm no better or worse. Like I was judgmental, but

711
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: I always held out hope that he would change and

712
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: that we would have this amazing relationship. It would it

713
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: would heal us both and you know, all this these things.

714
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: And then I was like, oh, no one's like I

715
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: I could die, like any time anybody can. No one's

716
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: coming to save you. We I had I had adopted

717
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: a perspective of like learned helplessness, that I was in

718
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: this you know, that I was a victim of the industry,

719
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: or I was like in you know, the people looked

720
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: at people felt bad for me, and I like wore

721
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 2: that scarlet letter and then I just you know, started

722
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: acting bad in my I made poor choices as a

723
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 2: result of the shame and the embarrassment and the and

724
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: the difficulty some difficulties that I experienced, the deck of

725
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 2: cards I had been dealt. But I was like, Okay,

726
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: so what m hm and now what now what?

727
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

728
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to die. I don't want to hurt

729
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: others I had. It never got so bad for me.

730
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 2: Like I think of how outspoken Demi's been with their

731
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: story and you know, literally o ding and like looking

732
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: at the edge of death and like peeking out. That

733
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 2: was not my experience. But losing my father was a

734
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: hinge point.

735
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I

736
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: would imagine, you know, you're talking about Demi's experience, for example,

737
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: But but a loss like that is also something that

738
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,959
Speaker 1: will bring you to the edge of an abyss, right,

739
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: and you just have to say where do I go

740
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: from here? And especially after you had so much of

741
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: your life dictated for you and so many things controlled

742
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: by people other than you, that's right to say, Like

743
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: I don't know what it looks like but I know

744
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: I have to take control back. That's a really profound

745
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: moment of change in a life. Do you think that

746
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: that knowing that there needed to be a shift is

747
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: also what enabled you to begin to separate this persona

748
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: of Jojo that's been out in the world from you,

749
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: whole human Joanna.

750
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: I think that when my dad passed, I mean, I've

751
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: been I am a spiritual person. I grew up with

752
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: the framework of Christianity, specifically Catholicism. I'm very and I

753
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: grew up in the choir loft. And I think that

754
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: in music for me and relating to my gift, feels

755
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: very spiritual. Me and my dad had a spiritual connection

756
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: through music, you know, harmonizing together and feeling empathic with

757
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: each other and like just being really connected, feeling each other.

758
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: And I think that when he passed, like since he passed,

759
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: I continue to feel to feel him, I continue to

760
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: feel connected to him, I continue to have conversations with him.

761
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: I continued to see him, like sometimes physically, not like

762
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: not like really really, but like sometimes a flash of

763
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: him in the audience. Sometimes I look back, you know,

764
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: in an airport, and I'm like, you know, just moments

765
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: of moments of delight that take my breath away that

766
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 2: I don't need to explain to anybody else because they

767
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: need something to me. So I'm saying that to say that,

768
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 2: I think that with connecting to my spiritual self more

769
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: and with taking solo trips, I started to take solo trips.

770
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: I realized how like stimulated I had been, and I

771
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: was interested in silence. Like my dad this quote right here,

772
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: the Disiderata, and it's a go placidly amidst the noise

773
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

774
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: That he always had that in his bathroom, whatever apartment

775
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: he'd be in, he had this deep ass quote, you know,

776
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: the whole desiderata. And I'm like, man, he was so deep.

777
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what he told me. You loved

778
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: the desert. I want to go to the desert. So

779
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 2: I went to Sedona, which is another one of my

780
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: you know, big meetingful dud and I just started to

781
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: actually take the time to be alone and to be

782
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: in silence, to listen more than I spoke, and to

783
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: take myself off the hamster wheel of like well sort of,

784
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: because I still haven't met many years of doing this

785
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: and I'm still extricating myself from it in a sense,

786
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: but I'm saying I became really aware that, like I

787
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 2: was on other people's timelines and I was like, you

788
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 2: have to do this, you have to put out this album.

789
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, whoa.

790
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: I was.

791
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: I was about to put out my third album that

792
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 2: I've been waiting ten years to be able to put

793
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: out a third album, and then my dad passed and

794
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 2: that changed my life. And I'm like, okay, so life

795
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 2: does not ever go the way you think it's going

796
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: to go. I thought this was supposed to be, you know,

797
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: the big thing. And I'm like, I'm I'm not ready

798
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: to act like a bad bitch now, Yeah, life is

799
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 2: not about that. Joanna like, I'm not okay. Well just

800
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 2: talking about myself and the third person, that's gross, but

801
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I was not okay and

802
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 2: I couldn't pretend and I needed to sit with that

803
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: part of myself as opposed to be performative, and I didn't.

804
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: I didn't get that right all the time.

805
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: But nobody gets everything right all the time. Though. But

806
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: I think even that instinct for you to name yourself

807
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 1: is like when you zoom out and look at your life,

808
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: you got to say, no, I can't go be that

809
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: performance version of myself right now.

810
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: I have to be here sleep in these in moments.

811
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: I had to carve out. I had to have more balance.

812
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

813
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: I had been focused on work since I was like

814
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: six years old, and at twenty twenty four, I was like, oh,

815
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: I I think my priorities are not right.

816
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, or that you get so used to the speed,

817
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: Like I'm still trying to figure out how not to

818
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: feel guilty or sad if I take a day off

819
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: and it's like I don't always have to be on

820
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: every call and every zoom and every schedule everything like

821
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,919
Speaker 1: like a day, you know, Like but I'll take I'll

822
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: have a day, I'll have an afternoon, And I panic

823
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, it's I haven't had a free

824
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 1: afternoon in three weeks. What should I do with this time?

825
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,479
Speaker 1: I should do? I should do something meaningful with this time?

826
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: And it's like or not I could just stare.

827
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: At the wall or like go for a walk.

828
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: I'm trying to re parent that like overachiever in me,

829
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 1: and it sounds like in a way that that period

830
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: of loss made you like big sister, that kid perform

831
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: in you.

832
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah that either of us had that. Yeah, like we

833
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: are that for ourselves.

834
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: It's beautiful to learn that you can do that? Is

835
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: that part of what you hope readers take away from

836
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: the book, Like when you really think about you've put

837
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: your heart in this hardcover, Like when you hand it

838
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: to someone, what do you want them to take away

839
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: from it?

840
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 2: It's really I've tried to be like it's none of

841
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: my business, but people take away from it, you know

842
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: what I mean.

843
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: But that's so hard when you were like an EmPATH.

844
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: And you're right, it is so hard. I do have

845
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: hopes for this book, you know. My hopes are that

846
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 2: people think about their own life in maybe a different way,

847
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 2: or that they're able to see the through lines, like

848
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: you said from the beginning, and maybe have compassion for

849
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: ways that they've been. Yes, maybe I have compassion for

850
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: other people too. You know, the way I think about

851
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: my parents is so different than the way I thought

852
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: about them ten years ago. I think about them now

853
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: is as whole human beings who were people before they

854
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: were my parents, and who you know, everybody does the

855
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: best they can with what they have to a certain

856
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: extent and their mind and I love them. Yeah, and

857
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 2: you know, and a bunch of other stuff too, And

858
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 2: so I hope that people feel inspired also to keep going,

859
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 2: because your story doesn't end when people say, you know

860
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: you're done. I recently had the opportunity to work with

861
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: Cyndi Lauper on a project. She you know, it's crazy

862
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: when people are telling me, like with twenty years as

863
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: a recording artist that like, oh my god, your longevity

864
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 2: and that is something I'm proud of to be able

865
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 2: to say, you know, I'm here and I'm stronger than

866
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: I've ever been and I've got there. But in talking

867
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: with Cindy and I was like, you know, can you

868
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: because she's seventy one years old and she is going

869
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: on her final world tour who knows if it'll really

870
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: be the final because she's still killing it. And I

871
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 2: was like, you know, not what's your secret because I

872
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: know it's not a secret, But I was like, could

873
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: you give me any advice for like, you know, how

874
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: you've just continued to be authentic and reinvent yourself and

875
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: stay creative and in tune and a lot you know,

876
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: like she's so alivened believable to me, and she was like,

877
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 2: just keep going. She was like, just keep going. I

878
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 2: know it sounds so simple, but she was like, just

879
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 2: do things. Just keep doing things basically, you know what

880
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: I mean. And then she's like and then you look

881
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: back and be like I did a lot of cool things,

882
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: doing things that feel true and always look for the

883
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: truth and for the connection and for and I'm just like, oh,

884
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: you know, she has like fifty years or you know,

885
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: forty or fifty years in the game. I'm like, that's

886
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 2: that's aspirational and that's inspiring.

887
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: That's so cool with Broadway and with the new single, Like,

888
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: how does it feel to be sharing your voice again

889
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: on your own terms?

890
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: It feels very liberating. I feel empowered. It also feels

891
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: like a lot like I definitely have to check in

892
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 2: with myself and be like, yeah, okay, bitch your own

893
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: Broad's like seven shows a week. You know, you promoted

894
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: this book. That's awesome. You just put out a new single,

895
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 2: Like that's a lot of simulation. Take a nap, take

896
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: a nap. Yeah, and so I But but the truth

897
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 2: is I feel energized by all these by office, I

898
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 2: feel really fortunate I feel like it's not draining my soul,

899
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 2: because I've done many things I felt like it's sucking

900
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 2: the soul out of me and that I'm doing it

901
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: and I feel stupid or I feel not connected, or

902
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 2: I feel I really do feel actually connected to this.

903
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: I think that this is in resonance with who I

904
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 2: am and who I want to be and how I

905
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,479
Speaker 2: want to show up in the world. And I think

906
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 2: that it will continue to if I continue to do

907
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 2: things that feel like that, and maybe I can create.

908
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: Then maybe I'll be seventy one one day looking back

909
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, you know, I really started trusting

910
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 2: myself around that time doing things that scared me. Being

911
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: on Broadway scared me scares me. You know, it's and

912
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: it's challenging, and but I've lived a lot in my

913
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 2: life as an only child, as a solo artist, with

914
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: things being about me, and with sharing this book this

915
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: is about me, and you know, but being a part

916
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 2: of a community a company on Broadway, it's such a

917
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 2: team sport, and that has been one of the greatest

918
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 2: joys that I've got to have in the past couple

919
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 2: of years, is all of us being just as important

920
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: as the next and having the relationships with the people

921
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 2: behind the scenes and you know, just every single department.

922
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 2: It's been really it's been awesome. But I'm so curious

923
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: now as to what's going to come next and how

924
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: I can take these things that I've learned and the

925
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 2: opportunities that I have and support other people on their journeys.

926
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 2: I have to not just be about me, because it's

927
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 2: not enough. And I want to celebrate you for the

928
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: work that you do and the way that you have

929
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: I really mean that I've always admired you from Afar

930
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 2: and I've seen you peripherally, maybe at protest, maybe at

931
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 2: an event something like that, and I just you are

932
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: such a light and you seem so connected and so

933
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 2: purpose driven. And it is people like you that that

934
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: really inspire me to be more and to seek to

935
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: seek ways to help and to have conversations that are

936
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 2: more that move things forward as opposed to just be

937
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 2: like look it at blush or whatever. Yeah.

938
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: I know, I always joke, I'm like, I'm not the

939
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: good I'm not good at small talk, but like I'll

940
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: wind up having a version of a therapy session in

941
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: the kitchen corner at the paw You always girl, so

942
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: now we know, now we have each other. It's so

943
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: good as you sit here and you and you think

944
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: about all of this, Like, because what it looks like

945
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: to me from the outside as a person who has

946
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: been a fan for a long time and who feels

947
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: like I got all the things from the book, Like

948
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: it looks to me like everything is coming back to you,

949
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: all these pieces, like you're collecting all of it to

950
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: be you know, your your whole self. But I know

951
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: this is just in a way, the beginning. It's a

952
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: new beginning. It's a reclamation of so many things. And

953
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: now you sit looking at the next phase. So like

954
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: when you look out at life from today, what feels

955
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: like your work in progress right now?

956
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 2: Ooh, it feels like my work in progress. Definitely to

957
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: be as authentic as possible to question when my like

958
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 2: default programming comes up and I'm like I need to

959
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 2: do this, or like I need to it needs to

960
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: sound like this or look like this or whatever, or

961
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: get more people's opinions that I really need. I'm working

962
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: on that because I do feel that for me to

963
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: be able to be of service in the world, that

964
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 2: I have to be authentic. I have to be not

965
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: performing and I think even to be the type of

966
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 2: actress that I eventually want to be and to do

967
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 2: the work that I want to do in musical theater

968
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: and beyond. It's not about performance. Actually, it's about embodiment

969
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: and really dropping in and believing and being authentic even

970
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: in that, you know. Anyway, I'm working on that, and

971
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 2: I'm working on being more vulnerable even any type of relationship. Yeah,

972
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 2: dropping my defense, hm hmm. Yeah, I have so many

973
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: things I'm working on. And what you said about this

974
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: reclamation of these different pieces coming together, that's what inspired

975
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 2: this new song that I would I would be crazy

976
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 2: not to mention, because it's you gave it the perfect setup.

977
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 2: It's I was inspired by this art of consugi, this

978
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 2: Japanese art of consugi, where like ceramics are broken and

979
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 2: then they're together with like gold and cold, so beautiful,

980
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 2: and I'm looking at this and I was like, I

981
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: was just really inspired by it, and so me and

982
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 2: some friends wrote the song and it's called Porcelain and

983
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 2: it's it feels like Catharsis to me, and it feels like,

984
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: you know, I've run I've run so many miles listening

985
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 2: to this song because It just makes me want to go,

986
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 2: It makes me want to let go, It makes me

987
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 2: want to sweat and cry, and so I wanted to

988
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: share it with people because it makes me feel those

989
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: things well.

990
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: And what an amazing you know idea the metal for that.

991
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: The cracks are the most precious parts.

992
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 2: Ever, you know, and we're we're all just world is

993
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 2: human Kinsuhi Really.

994
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you for today. This has been

995
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: so great.

996
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you are so amazing.

997
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: You're such a gem. I'm like, I want to come

998
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: see your show. We have to hang out.

999
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: I would love that. Sophia, thank you so much for

1000
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 2: your time and your presence. You're awesome.