1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to this informed a mini series from There 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd, so 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: you might have seen that. On Wednesday, Facebook announced they 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: were upholding their band at the twice impeached former President 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: Donald Trump for now. Here's what you need to know. Basically, 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Facebook played a huge part in the January six insurrection. 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: Facebook was the main platform mentioned by those involved. It 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: was used even more than other platforms popular by fringe 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: right wing types like Parlor. According to charging documents on 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice, this is why we saw Facebook 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: and other platforms band Trump On January seven's, the day 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: after the insurrection. The band was enacted after Facebook removed 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: two of Trump's post during the Capitol riot, including a 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: video in which he said supporters should go home, but 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: in which he repeated his false claim of widespread voter fraud, 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: saying I know your pain on your hood. We had 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: an election that was stolen from us. It should go 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: without saying that this was an obvious lie. The election 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: wasn't stolen, and this lie was the entire basis for 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: his supporters storing the capital in the first place. Even 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: though they banned him. We knew this wasn't permanent because 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: despite being a billion dollar company, Facebook is basically incapable 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: of making a single clear decision. Facebook pretty much threw 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: up their hands and said they were not able to 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: make this decision, hired the so called Oversight board to 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: make the decision of whether Trump should be permanently banned 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: or not for them. The Oversight Board upheld Trump's ban 28 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: for now, but also said that Facebook should not have 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: imposed an immediate suspension without clear standards, and said the 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: company should determine a response consistent with rules applied to 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: other users. So the whole thing was basically a massive 32 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: waste of time and we're pretty much back where we started. 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: The Facebook Board pretty much punted to Facebook and said 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: that they should make the decision about whether to rene 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: state Trump consistent with their policies. And now they this 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: book has six months to figure it out. This is 37 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: a real failure of leadership the Facebook Oversight board. It's 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: basically just a way for Facebook leadership to avoid real accountability, 39 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, the kind of accountability that comes with making 40 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: a decision. Facebook has already done so much harm to 41 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: our discourse and democracy, and don't forget the kind of 42 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: disinformation harassment and inciting of violence. It has been allowed 43 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: to fester on their platform overwhelmingly hurts women, LGBT, hugh folks, 44 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: and people of color. Now, many distractors might say that 45 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: banning Trump from social media is a violation of freedom 46 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 1: of speech, but Nora Benavidez, director of the US Free 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: Expression programs that Pan America Foundation, says those people are 48 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: just wrong. Let's revisit her episode if there Are No 49 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet and listen as she gets into 50 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: why banning Trump from social media is not a free 51 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: speech issue. Today marks the start of Trump's second impeachment 52 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: trial for his role in the insurrection on Janie Ray six. 53 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: Here's Maryland Representative Jamie Raskin earlier to day at the trial. 54 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: If that's not an impeachable offense, then there is no 55 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: such thing. On the day Congress met to finalize the 56 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: presidential election, they would have you believe there is absolutely 57 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: nothing the Senate it. Now, it's clear that Trump continuously 58 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: used social media to spread disinformation, including the repeated baseless 59 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: lie that he won the election and that it was 60 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: being stolen from him. That lie, as we know, culminated 61 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: in his supporters attacking in the Capitol. But even before that, 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: Trump has always used social media to incite violence, stoke tensions, 63 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: and spread distortions and baseless claims. That is until January, 64 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: when Facebook, Twitter and other platforms finally gave Trump the boot. 65 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: But don't give tech leaders too much credit. They only 66 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: did this after years of pressure from platform accountability advocates 67 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: who warned that failure to act could lead to the 68 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: kind of violence that we saw in January six And 69 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: even now Facebook's oversight board is weighing whether they made 70 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: the decision by kicking Trump off the platform, So it's 71 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: possible that we haven't even heard the last of Trump 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: on social media. A lot of people were questioning by 73 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: banning Trump from social media, his free speech was being threatened. 74 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: But Nora Benavidez, free speech attorney and the director of 75 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: US free expression Programs at Pan America Foundation, a nonprofit 76 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: that protects and promotes free expression, says that when it 77 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: comes to understanding free speech on social media platforms, a 78 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: lot of us are asking the wrong questions. I remember 79 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 1: when the insurrection happened. It felt for me like total whiplash. 80 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: There was still a kind of hesitancy, you know, concern, 81 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: like what was going to happen in the lead up 82 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: to the inauguration, and so that January six just somehow 83 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: felt not too surprising but still very very jarring and 84 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: um And in you know, the weeks that have followed, 85 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: we've just tried to you know, be responsive to people. 86 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: You know, people have questions like were the people storming 87 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: the capital exercising their first and right? Did Trump have 88 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: a right to be on Twitter and on Facebook? Um? 89 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: And so a lot of questions have emerged that we've 90 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: just tried to be ready to answer and to talk 91 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: with people about what's really happening, because they're really really 92 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: complex issues, so full disclosure. Like I have worked, as 93 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, work with organizations that have tried to pressure 94 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: social media platforms two take disinformation seriously, and so a 95 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: big part of that has been asking them to remove 96 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: Trump when he, you know, tweets things that are insidiary 97 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: or like inciting violence. And truly, I don't think I 98 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: ever thought I would see Trump be banned from platforms, 99 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: Like I remember when that happened, I was fully kind 100 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: of surprised because I think I was quite used to 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: the idea that, oh, he's just above consequences. Or accountability. 102 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: There will there will never be any of it. So, um, 103 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: you know, I was, I was quite surprised. What did 104 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: you think when you saw Trump being banned from these platforms? 105 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: The insurrection happened on I think Wednesday, and then the 106 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: cascade of first you know, there were labels placed on 107 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: a video of his there were then he was banned, 108 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, permanently suspended from Twitter, and it just sort 109 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: of felt like this jaw dropping cascade where I was like, 110 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: this is really happening. And immediately though, uh, you know, 111 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: I was watching on my own Twitter, people saying this 112 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: violates the First Amendment. This is like an egregious assault 113 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: on free speech. There was so much hate and confusion 114 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: and frankly miseducation. And part of what you know is 115 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: important to keep in mind is that Twitter, Facebook, those 116 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: are private companies. And you know, I am a First 117 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: Amendment lawyer, like I firmly believe in the ability for 118 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: all of us to engage in open discourse to hear 119 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: what other people think. But Trump has absolutely contributed to, 120 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: if not been, the biggest super spreader of dangerous misinformation. 121 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: Um that I think is absolutely information, you know, with 122 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: the goal of kind of dividing us and making people 123 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: believe these false narratives. Deep platforming is actually pretty effective. 124 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: Booting Trump from social media almost immediately slowed the spread 125 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: of false information on those platforms. Signal Labs found that 126 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: false claims about election rigging dropped from two point five 127 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: million mentions to six hundred eighty eight thousand mentions across platforms, 128 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: and hashtags commonly used to spread election rigging claims like 129 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: hashtag March for Trump dropped by nine point And it's 130 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: not just Trump. A study conducted by the Election Integrity 131 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: Partnership found that just a few dozen pro Trump Twitter accounts, 132 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: including Trump's own account, where the original sources for about 133 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: a fifth of misleading election claims around the election. It 134 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: really goes to show you how just a small handful 135 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: of accounts can be responsible for major k us on platforms. 136 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: I was actually very much in favor of his being removed. 137 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: I think what was necessary and really good was that 138 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: data immediately emerged from a couple of researchers that found 139 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: about seventy of the misinformation that had been on Twitter 140 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: was no longer there thanks to his removal, along with 141 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: the removal of about thirty seven others who were sort 142 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: of the biggest influencers and spreaders of misinformation. And I 143 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: think that we need data like that to be able 144 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: to make the case again two platforms in the future, 145 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: because you know, the big criticism was this just didn't 146 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: happen soon enough. And I'm all here for the criticism, 147 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: but I also think we need to lay the foundation for, 148 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: like what are solid policy and community guideline standards that 149 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: the platforms are implementing that then have data to backup 150 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: that when they do that it benefits the health of 151 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: the Internet. People were able to say, like, here was 152 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: the measurable impact of banning Trump and and other accounts 153 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: who were responsible for spreading this kind of thing. Here 154 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: was the measurable impact. And truly what has been the 155 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: down side? Less noise, less live you know, spreading like 156 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: wildfire on these platforms. I I it's been interesting to 157 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: see how there was such a quick benefit, like a 158 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: quick nalus benefit, with like very few in my book, 159 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: if any downsides. I think there maybe the downside of 160 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: people who supported Trump feeling somehow more quote unquote like 161 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: in air quotes, I'm doing this sensor um and that 162 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: somehow their censorship right makes them emotional, driving them potentially 163 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: to be more upset. And you know my work on 164 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: sort of the psychology side of misinformation, and that I 165 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: think we have to, you know, stay vigilant to the 166 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: ways that people will be emotional to information, the way 167 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: we are all emotional to news. I mean, our relationship 168 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: to news is emotional. Um. We've seen the way you know, 169 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: platforms hinge our interaction on our likes or dislikes, and 170 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: so it's I think important to make sure we don't 171 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: completely marginalize people that may actually be movable. Uh maybe 172 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: not today, but down the line. And so I just 173 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: I kind of have this like lingering concern about how 174 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: we engage those that continue to believe alternate realities, you know, 175 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: that continue to want to see Trump um. And it's 176 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: really hard to read those people. So I just it's 177 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: like a sort of weird gut instinct where I kind 178 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: of wonder, what are they thinking about? How can we 179 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: sort of call them in and and talk with them 180 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: about these issues in ways where you know, if they 181 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: had been unmovable before. Slowly, slowly, some of these Trump 182 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: supporters are starting to see the cracks in that reality. 183 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about that, Um, sort of the 184 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: kind of emotional response that someone might have to feeling 185 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: the shame of you know, platform saying your ideas what 186 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: you have to say is not acceptable here. I hadn't 187 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: even really thought about that, and I think it really 188 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: highlights to me that at the heart of a lot 189 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: of your work with Pan America and just generally is 190 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: empathy and sort of trying to remember that deep down 191 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about people. People are all complex. We we 192 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: are all all humans are like driven by a complex 193 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: series of feelings and motivations internally, and so remembering that 194 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: these are not just users quote unquote with their people 195 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: who have these complex emotional responses. I think that empathy 196 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: can get lost in conversations about disinformation and how it 197 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: spreads and what motivates people to spread it. Um. But 198 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: I am grateful that though that that idea seems to 199 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: be at the heart of so much of the work 200 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: that you do to create off ramps for folks like 201 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: this bridget I have to say, I never thought I 202 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: would play even close to like the therapist role that 203 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: I feel like I do sometimes. Um, you know, being 204 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: a low are thinking about the law, thinking about legality 205 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: on Twitter or Facebook, and yet being faced with people 206 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: who ask questions and actually want to engage somehow. And 207 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: I think that the the problem the Internet has bred 208 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: is that, as we all know we're siloed, we seek 209 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: out our own and difference of any sort, whether it's 210 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: something we can accept and and listen to, or something 211 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: we find so offensive and egregious like we simply want 212 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: to shut it down and not hear it um and 213 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: Trump I think went so far as too then when 214 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: he heard things he didn't like, he called those lies. 215 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: And the tendency, of course is to uh, you know, 216 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: shut people out, to disengage, and that is not getting 217 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: us anywhere. In fact, I think the idea that we 218 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: never engage with people who are radicalizing, or that we 219 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: never seek out others, has led to things like the insurrection, 220 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: where we need to engage, We need to find entry point. 221 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: And I think we need to have a kind of 222 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: expectation setting where we're not all going to agree, but 223 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: we can exist in disagreement and be civil and believe 224 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: in each other's humanity. Um. Of course, if our disagreement 225 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: is grounded in someone believing you or I shouldn't exist 226 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: or have the same rights, that's different. But the level 227 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: of empathy that I hope we can bring sometimes to 228 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: our online discourse is something that can try to create 229 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: space for understanding. UM And, I'm really glad that you 230 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: see and talk about empathy in this way, that you 231 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: see the value of those things that as someone who 232 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: is a storyteller, you know, you focus in media and stories, 233 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: like it's so critical to remember that even if we 234 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: find it somehow offensive, like we have to find ways 235 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: to engage and find each other's humanity, even if it 236 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: sounds corny. It doesn't sound corny. I mean, I often 237 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: it's it's you said that you feel like a therapist. 238 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: And when I have these conversations about tech platforms, it's 239 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: funny how often they turn they turned to sort of 240 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: things that sound a bit corny, like empathy or you know, 241 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: remind remembering there was a human at the other on 242 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: the other end of the screen, things like that. UM And, 243 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: I think you you really hit on something that is 244 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I'm so interested in disinformation 245 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: and making this show is that I feel that the 246 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: thing that you just described as silos and sort of 247 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: note people being closed off and all of that, I 248 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: feel like we've gotten to a place where you can 249 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: no longer assume it's it's no longer easy to assume 250 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: good faith when you're having discussions on the internet. Right. So, 251 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: when I first got online, the reason why I found 252 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: such a freedom and love of talking on the internet 253 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: was because it felt like I was able to reach 254 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: so many different people, get so many different perspectives, and 255 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: it felt relatively safe. Now I feel that that doesn't 256 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: like that safety is gone right, Like, like when I 257 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: have a conversation with somebody on Twitter, I'm not sure 258 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: if there's someone who we can have a good faith 259 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: disagreement or a good faith dialogue. It just feels like 260 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: we're no longer able to assume good faith in all 261 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: of our discourse online because the temperature has been turned 262 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: up so high, in part by things like disinformation and 263 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, lies and and and violent rhetoric online. I'm 264 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: gonna make it really personal. Sometimes I get retweeted on 265 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: Twitter by people who then have a comment about my tweet, 266 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: and often the assumptions, often wild assumptions people will make 267 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: about more of me and who I am. UM really 268 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: stress me out. And I totally totally know what you're 269 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: saying where it feels like you may not be able 270 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: to trust someone. UM. And so I often try to 271 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: then engage with the people that retweet me, whether it 272 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: is someone on frankly any side of the political spectrum, um, 273 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: making these assumptions and in no way to defend myself, 274 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: but just to open conversation. I've had really wonderful learning 275 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: experiences where people will kind of turned down their temperature 276 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: when I respond in ways that engage them with open 277 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: ended questions, UM. Which is hard to do. I mean, 278 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: you can't do that at scale every day. UM. And 279 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: that's one of the questions that I think about all 280 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: the time, is how we scale empathy. But in the meantime, 281 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: those like little one offs that can help change or slowly, 282 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, bring people together and help their attitudes kind 283 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: of move at a slower pace where they're assuming less 284 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: about me or you. I think it's a great thing. Um. 285 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: And the Internet has changed. I mean I remember when 286 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: something like Section two thirty, you know, not to get technical, 287 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: but when that was an exciting regulation to actually help 288 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: people feel safer on the internet, to be able to 289 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: like have conversations on blogs and the you know, the 290 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: internet is just such a different place now that it 291 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: feels so um You're always like just about to have 292 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: a complete crisis on Twitter. That's how I always fee. 293 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this could really go badly, and and 294 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: we can't all spend all of our days, you know, 295 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: having those meaningful, slow conversations. So I guess I just 296 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: sort of wonder, like, how do we scale empathy? Let's 297 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: pick a click break and we're back. I say this 298 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: a lot. We need to completely reimagine how we think 299 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: of the Internet, and that means we're thinking so much 300 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: of the infrastructure around technology. It means creating a tech 301 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: press that centers and valorizes empathy, not scale. It means 302 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: building platforms that center people, not quote users or clicks 303 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: or how much time we spend with our faces at 304 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: a screen. Now, what I'm describing is a radical reimagining, 305 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: and it might sound as big or as complicated as 306 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: like smashing the patriarchy or ending white supremacy. But I 307 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: believe that it's possible. I think there are enough people 308 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: out there like you and me who truly believe in 309 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 1: the power and possibility of the Internet and the power 310 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: of expression. And I believe that when we come together, 311 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: big radical things really are possible. And I know that 312 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: we have the power to radically rethink the internet so 313 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: that it's safer and more accessible and so that it 314 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: works for more people. I totally agree. I mean, and 315 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: smashing the patriarchy and ening white supremacy are also you know, 316 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: valid and worthwhile endeavor. This is how I feel like 317 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: all of it, just yes, and to everything, um, you know, 318 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: the best tech emphasis, like the people who are working 319 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: on innovation uh that I think are doing the best work, 320 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: understand that these are not tech issues. They're human issues. 321 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: And we're never going to solve everything by sort of 322 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: abdicating control or brainstorming to what can be automated, what 323 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, AI can do, what the platforms can do 324 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: better somehow to basically game our way out of what 325 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: human are fundamentally now doing, which is why are we hateful? Sometimes? 326 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 1: Like why are we bigoted? Why do people have an 327 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: interest in trolling others? Um? And so I think that 328 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the solutions have to be 329 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 1: human centered, where we instead of just saying, oh, well 330 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: the platforms can do X, y Z, or the government 331 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: can do all these other things, like well, what can 332 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: we do you know, like, what can everyday people do 333 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: to feel more empowered? Like maybe they can build imagine this, 334 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: like build an ecosystem of users and other people they 335 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: enjoy connecting with. I mean, can you imagine the joy 336 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: of actually thinking that your Twitter feed is an interesting 337 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: place to learn things instead of just who has the 338 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: best like breaking news hundred and forty character tweet. Um, 339 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: that would be really exciting. I think so. I I 340 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: love the idea, and I think they're just need to 341 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: be more of us doing this, Like more of us 342 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: committed to talking about humans and how humans fit into 343 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: what we're doing as users, because really should go the 344 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: other way around. If users don't come first, it should 345 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: be people coming first. You're actually doing a lot of 346 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: that work in terms of building more people who see 347 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: things like that. You know, at pen you have these 348 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: this weekly series where you, you know, are joined by 349 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: other journalists and other thinkers to help people understand the 350 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: role that we all play in making the Internet a 351 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: better place. Um, can you talk about some of the 352 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: steps that people, anyone listening could take to help make 353 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: the Internet a safer and better place. Oh that's like 354 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: my favorite question. Um, you just you got me. At 355 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: the sweet spot. I'm like, here we go. Um, well, 356 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: you know, we've we've looked at disinformation for years and 357 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: everyone always asks what's the solution, and so kind of 358 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: to you know, my last point, I think a lot 359 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: of it. We have to focus on humans and give 360 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: people power to you know, take control of what they're 361 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: seeing online. So I always think it's best to, frankly, 362 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: just start with understanding what you do when you're online. 363 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: You know, like, how are you consuming information? Bridget? Is 364 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: it on Twitter? Are you, let's be honest, are you 365 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: going to Facebook? And are you clicking on links? Or 366 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: you maybe privately just reading the headline that I shared 367 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: or your other friends shared, Like let's be real, you know, 368 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: like sometimes that's all I do. I'm like, oh, I 369 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: can make a wild assumption based on what Bridget shared 370 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: and I'm not even clicking the link. So just sort 371 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: of like taking a pulse being honest with yourself. Are 372 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: you going to Fox News? Are you going to the 373 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: New York Times? Are you going to you know, news websites? 374 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: How are you doing things? Are you listening to podcasts 375 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: like this? I think it's good to know how you 376 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: consume information. And then I also think with that, we 377 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 1: should all start asking ourselves how we feel when we're online, like, 378 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: are you feeling anxious when you read things? Are you angry? 379 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: A lot of times disinformation will thrive because we're emotional 380 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: and we often want to share things. We want to 381 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: engage with people quickly, and so will accept something without 382 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: fact checking it, without thinking about or asking ourselves you know, 383 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: who wrote this, where did it come from? Why am 384 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: I seeing it? So if you can just sort of 385 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: pause like that is my number one recommendation. Pause to 386 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: ask a number of things, but just pause, um, and 387 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: from slowing down, I think we actually could all benefit. 388 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: You know, we could potentially share less misinformation. We could 389 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: also then think more carefully about what our own attitudes 390 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: are based on what we're seeing. Um, a whole host 391 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: of I mean, frankly, empathy could arise out of just 392 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: slowing down and uh and getting to a place where 393 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: we're not just liking, disliking, loving, laughing at things, but 394 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: maybe where we're in a place of huh, I want 395 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: to learn more about that. Yeah, if you could see 396 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: my if you were in my kitchen right now, where 397 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: I am. I have a post it note on my 398 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: laptop that just says slow down. And it's just a 399 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: reminder for me just in all the ways, because I 400 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: can sometimes move too quickly, just in life, but totally, 401 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: but I think that that the idea of just taking 402 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: a breath, taking a beat has been so helpful. It 403 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: sounds so it sounds so basic, but you know, I 404 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: but before I started really thinking critically about the way 405 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: that I felt when I was online, I would be 406 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: moving so quickly. And then when I started to slow 407 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: down a bit, I actually kept a little journal. So 408 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: if I saw something that made me feel anxious, I 409 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: would write that down. If I saw something that made 410 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: me my heart race, I would write that down. If 411 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: I saw something that made me laugh, I would write 412 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: that down. And from doing that, I really saw the 413 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: ways that I It's just like my brain chemistry was 414 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: just firing so quickly and I wasn't even stopping to think. 415 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: And I find that. You know when you have those 416 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: moments where somebody tweets something and they like really wish 417 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: they had it, and it's going by and they're like, 418 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: oh God, I always wondered were they in that moment 419 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: where they've just been seeing so many different takes and 420 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: different jokes and different tweets. Their brain is no longer 421 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: processing what they're doing, that they're just putting a tweet 422 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: into the world without even really thinking about it. And 423 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: so I really find so much value in almost thinking 424 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: about using the Internet as a kind of meditative practice 425 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: and an opportunity to really be mindful of how just 426 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: how you're doing, how you're feeling. Are you anxious, are 427 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: you emotional? Like what's going on? As opposed to something 428 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: where you're just like mindlessly scrolling and not really not 429 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: really being in charge of your you know, of your physios, 430 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: your emotions and your brain and all of that. I 431 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: if I could do away with one term this year especially, 432 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: it would be doom scrolling, because one, I mean, when 433 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: are we not doom scrolling nowadays? You know, like news 434 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: is never inspiring. But also it's so passive. And part 435 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: of what I think is really great about what you're 436 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,719 Speaker 1: explaining is that you have literally taken control of what 437 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: you're doing, you know, to say, I'm going to proactively 438 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: write things down, I'm going to question and reflect on 439 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: what I'm feeling. Um, you know, sometimes just the sheer 440 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: of feeling like you're in the driver's seat whatever it 441 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: is then that you end up doing, if it's writing 442 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: your feelings down, if it's deciding not to tweet, but 443 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: just thinking of yourself as the one that's in control 444 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: instead of doom scrolling, I think is so exciting for people, 445 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: and it's a weird. It's almost like a mind shift 446 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: where people once I say it. Sometimes in our trainings, 447 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: people will say, I didn't even think that I could 448 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: curate my news feed that way, and I'm like, yes, 449 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: like we can choose, and it would be so exciting 450 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 1: to be stimulated, not just totally freaked out by what 451 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: we're seeing exactly. And I think that's something that I 452 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: think that everybody can take away. You might not be 453 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: able so just this week, we might not be able to, 454 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, topple the stranglehold that some of these platforms 455 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: seem to have on our democracy, on our discourse. But individually, 456 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: you can control how you consume social media. You can 457 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: you delete Facebook from your phone and say like I'm 458 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: only going to go on from my browser twice a 459 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: day or something like that. Like we might we might 460 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: not be able to control how these things show up 461 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: in a larger way, but we can control how they 462 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: show up to us personally how they show up in 463 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: our household, like whether you take your phone to bed 464 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: to doom, scroll Twitter before sleep or not. Like those 465 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: are choices that that we have control over, not anybody else. 466 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: And so you know, really trying to internalize that we 467 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: do have some control, even though sometimes it feels like 468 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: we don't. You're not going to be great at this overnight. 469 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: You know, it won't be like suddenly you feel more 470 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: excited or eager to be online and to find this 471 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: healthier internet. But I think that it can slowly lead 472 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: to other practices. And if you can start with slowing down, 473 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: so let's say, just questioning yourself, you know, scrolling at 474 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: a slower pace, finding than interesting articles and pieces of 475 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: content and people to follow and connect with, then you 476 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: may frankly start wondering other things. You know, you can 477 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: maybe get better at spotting when a headline lacks context. 478 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: You know, I've gotten to the point where it's it 479 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: has It doesn't happen overnight, but you know, you can 480 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: sort of be scrolling and you read a piece of 481 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: content and you're like, huh, I would normally be really 482 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: upset by that. Why would I be upset? Like could 483 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: I explore what the underlying reason would be and when 484 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: you slow down like that to ask deeper questions not 485 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: just about my own reaction, but about the piece of 486 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: content you're seeing. I actually think we all are training 487 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: ourselves to have a kind of media literacy and digital 488 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: literacy that everyone's going to need in the future. I mean, 489 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: the Internet isn't going away, so we need that eventually. 490 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: The other thing is, disinformation is a service for higher 491 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: It's an industry, and disinformation is not going away. Online 492 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: hate is not going away, So we all if we 493 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: just a little tiny bit chipped away at and built 494 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: up better and better practices, we could truly help create 495 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: the ecosystems we enjoy that have less of that um 496 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: and at scale. You know, it isn't perfect, but it's 497 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: at least one piece of how we can help create 498 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: something that's healthier and frankly less hateful. More after a 499 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: quick break, let's get right back into it. I believe 500 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: that the only way that some of these platforms will meaningfully, 501 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, rethink the role they've had in spreading misinformation 502 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: and hate is if we make it unprofitable, right and 503 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: so like, if it if it hurts your bottom line 504 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: to traffic in hate and violent rhetoric and disinformation. That's 505 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: the only way that I think that some of these 506 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: companies will stop trafficking in it. I guess that I 507 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: think that the way to do that can be so individual, Like, 508 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: I'm not going to engage with it. I'm not going 509 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: to amplify it. I'm not going to support it. If 510 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: if I see that kind of thing online, I'm not 511 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: going to, you know, I'm going to kind of divest 512 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: from it. I think. I think I think a lot 513 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: of that can be driven by individuals. I'm thinking of 514 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: the headline divesting from disinformation. Yeah, all you should all 515 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: be doing that. I think that's your article, Bridget. I 516 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: mean I think the other I don't want to seem 517 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: too corny and that, like, you know, humans are going 518 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: to solve all of it, because I think the platforms 519 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: have so much responsibility, and um, I think the future 520 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: of minimizing how toxic the Internet can be in part 521 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: is that the platforms have to begin informing users in 522 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: better ways. And I don't know if you and I 523 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: have ever talked about it, but I think that Twitter's 524 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: very first step into putting labels on content really saw 525 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: horrible moment from the media's perspective when people started calling 526 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: these warning labels UM, because I think that that has 527 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: such a negative connotation, and I think that labels and 528 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: the platform mechanisms to slow people down are actually a 529 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: fantastic measure that we should be encouraging and learning about. Um. 530 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: It's the stuff that absent me teaching millions of Americans, 531 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: let's say about media literacy. Platforms can help slow people down. 532 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: So I think there's like this other piece also that 533 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: can happen in tandem to you and me taking control 534 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: that the platforms try to find ways to very you know, 535 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: in a nonpartisan, careful, educative manner, slow people down, UM, 536 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: and just do the thing that we're already doing a 537 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: little bit, you know, question what we're seeing, UM, wonder 538 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: if there are ways that we want to explore or 539 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: learn more about something, um, if we know that it's misleading. Yeah. 540 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: Even so you mentioned like when you share something based 541 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: on a headline that thing that water has now, which 542 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: I think is a great tool, but sometimes I feel 543 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: kind of dragged by it where it's like, do you 544 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: want to read the article before you read tweeting? How 545 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: many times have you not read, be honest, because I 546 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: every time haven't read it, Yes, and it's it's honestly 547 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: is a good reminder And when I get it, I'm like, oh, 548 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: come on, I this is I'm retweeting an article by 549 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: somebody that I know, like I trust them. But it 550 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: is a good reminder to just like, what's the hurry? 551 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: Why don't you just read it? You know? And it 552 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: really sometimes I'm like, drag me Twitter functionality, But so 553 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: you want to switch gears a little bit. As we're 554 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: seeing right now that the officials are being held accountable 555 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: for their role in either supporting or inciting the insurrection. 556 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: Trump was obviously kicked off social media platforms. Senator Josh 557 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: Holly's book was briefly dropped by its publisher, and kind 558 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: of along the same lines of free speech online, I've 559 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: seen a lot of people asking questions about what is 560 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: commonly known as quote cancel culture. So what are your 561 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: thoughts on so called cancel culture? As a free speech attorney, 562 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: are these free speech issues? Uh? You know, I'm going 563 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: to give you the short answer, which is it's really hard. Um. 564 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: Lawyers will often say it depends and part of what 565 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: I think is difficult is that cancel culture often seems 566 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: to imply that you're going to be, in a way, um, 567 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: canceled from an existing platform, you know, like from your base, 568 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: which also then to me suggests that you have a 569 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: base to be canceled from. Um. You know, you don't 570 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: talk about canceling someone who isn't very well known. And 571 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: I think there's this interesting power dynamic within the like 572 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: paradigm of thinking that there's a cancel culture. I think 573 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: it's more interesting, um to weigh what's at stake here, 574 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, when we think about someone like Donald Trump, 575 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: was he canceled? Uh? I honestly think that he was 576 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: legitimately taken off the Internet because of the real world 577 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: harm his words online have, And that is not canceled culture. 578 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: That is like a very deep, difficult old balance where 579 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: all of us, whether it is regulators, policymakers, platform people, 580 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: everyday users like you and me, like, what are his 581 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: words doing to our world? It is a drastically dangerous 582 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: step when he spreads lies, when he sow's discord, when 583 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: he promotes hate, all of the different ways that I 584 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: think the platforms maybe in being late somehow, if I 585 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: had to guess We're thinking that it would not be 586 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: that bad, not be that bad, and somehow the insurrection 587 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: was that crack, that like breaking point where people realize, oh, 588 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: online issues have real world harms, which has happened before. 589 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: We've seen it when there are mass shootings. We've seen it, 590 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: when there are acts of terrorism, you know, and like 591 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: other types of bombings. Um. And what's fascinating in that 592 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: moment is that I'm like, is that cancel culture? Like? 593 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: I don't think that is. I think that that is 594 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: a private company taking necessary actions to limit it or 595 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: triage the type of real world harm that's happening. I 596 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: think it was absolutely too late, and I always think 597 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: that it was too late. At the same time, Donald 598 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: Trump is a public figure and was an elected official 599 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: who was leading this country, and so there is also 600 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: this interest in hearing unkno, you know, sort of unedited 601 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: what he says. And so from a free expression perspective, 602 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: I always wonder what is the most speech we can 603 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: have with the least harm. I think we passed the 604 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: harm point frankly some time ago. UM, But there's definitely 605 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: I think we have to stay committed to having access 606 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: all of us to various forms of expression, because free 607 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: expression rights aren't just Donald Trump's right to say what 608 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: he wants. We all have free expression rights to access 609 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: what various people are saying. I have the right to 610 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: then hear what you were saying. You have the right 611 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: to hear what I am saying. And in some parts 612 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: of the world, part of what we have to keep 613 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: in mind is Facebook, Twitter. That's all the Internet, that's 614 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: all people have. That's the only connection they have to 615 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: what's happening politically. We are seeing right now in my 616 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: and mar with the Internet being shut down. That is 617 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: a political tactic to silence dissidents and dissent. And so 618 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: it's a difficult question to answer when there are questions 619 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: implicated in that larger one around who is speaking, what 620 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: is the effect offline? Is it damaging when in total 621 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: it seems to tip the scales towards violence and hate. 622 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: I have to say, in general, I hate conversations about 623 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: quote cancel culture because the concept just seems so disingenuous. 624 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: When people talk about the importance of being willing to 625 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: engage ideas one might not agree with it, always, somehow 626 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: seems like marginalized people are the ones expected to be 627 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: doing the engaging and arguing with people who are hell 628 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: bent on misunderstanding you is exhausting. And if you aren't 629 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: even able to talk about something with a shared set 630 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: of guiding fat the sky is blue too plus to us. 631 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: For Trump lost the election, then it can really get thorny. 632 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: When the election happened in November and Biden one, there 633 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: was I think rightly a kind of exhaustion. You know, 634 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: people were so tired of fighting and eager to disengage 635 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,479 Speaker 1: completely um from what might be different. And I I'm 636 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of those people. I think it's really 637 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: exhausting work to try to engage with people who disagree, 638 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: and you have to always know that ultimately, you know, 639 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: a lot of conversations will not be productive. They and 640 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: it isn't on you or me to do the labor 641 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: of teaching someone like someone else's teachable moment isn't necessarily 642 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: my job. At the same time, I think like the 643 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 1: crisis and the basic human crisis were in of how 644 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: divided we are. Merits a very serious examination that we 645 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: all need to sit with of like what is it 646 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: where we are interested in disengaging all the time with 647 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: anything different um And that permeates all of us. And 648 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: so I think the thesis is, you know, why are 649 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: we driven to do things that divide us? And then 650 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: how can we overcome our own instincts to actually broker conversation, 651 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: to find an entry point, even if it's little, and 652 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: even if it only happens for a couple of minutes, 653 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: Like that is the beginning of being able to find 654 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: what I think is the antidote to disinformation, where we 655 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: have a shared basis of facts. Even if you and 656 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: I disagree on policies, like we can both look at 657 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: a set of facts and say, yeah, that's what we're 658 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: basing our opinion on. And we may different then on 659 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: what we think needs to happen, but we can agree 660 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: on certain things. And we have absolutely not reached that 661 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: point of being able to agree on basic facts. Yeah, 662 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: that's exactly where I want to get us to. You know, 663 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: we can disagree, but we are all on the same 664 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: page about some basic facts. You know, two plus two 665 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,280 Speaker 1: is four, this guy is blue. We have a aired 666 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: understanding of reality, and it's sad to me that we're 667 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: not there. P You actually found that among Trump voters 668 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: say that he definitely won the election. Another thirty say 669 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 1: that he probably won the election. And this week Reuter's 670 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: pulled members of Congress now that of them wouldn't say 671 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: one way or the other whether or not they agreed 672 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: with Trump that the election had been stolen from him, 673 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: and two of them still say the election was stolen 674 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: from Trump. So it's like we're not even speaking the 675 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: same language. We do not have a shared reality, and 676 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: it seems like such a low bar, but that's where 677 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: I want to get us to a place where we 678 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: have a shared reality. I mean, it should be a 679 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: low bar, but honestly, there's there's also just like so 680 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: much bigotry and hate that a lot of those kinds 681 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: of civil discussions are not grounded in mutual humanity. So, 682 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, my civil rights background is like how do 683 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: we have the most for the most people, and how 684 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: do we maintain and protect basic rights for people who 685 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: have traditionally and historically been marginalized in every institution. So 686 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: there's this other piece that informs the work I do 687 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: and how I think about miss and disinformation because I 688 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: know that it affects different communities differently. Black and brown 689 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: people are targeted with disinformation so that they are disenfranchised 690 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: and believe their voice doesn't matter. So sort of in 691 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: the middle of all of it, I'm like, I still 692 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: very much have eyes wide open that some of us 693 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: will be affected, targeted, and marginalized in more specific and 694 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: acute ways that have massive effects on democracy. So I 695 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: don't want to sit here like Pollyanna. You know, Oh, 696 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,479 Speaker 1: it's all gonna be great if we could just find 697 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: moments of like factual shared belief, because some of that 698 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 1: assumes that other people will believe you and I matter 699 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: as much as anyone else. And um, and the reality 700 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: is a lot of people don't think that. But some 701 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: some are movable, Some are people where you engage and 702 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: they are not like hateful people. Interest did in less 703 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: for certain people. And that's the moment where I'm hoping 704 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: to reach at least some pockets of the United States. 705 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: So you sound pretty hopeful, oh, bridget I actually have 706 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: a lot of hope. I mean, you know, when I 707 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: was younger, I don't want to get to misty eyed, 708 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: but like you know, I would work in the South 709 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: with people like John Lewis and civil rights figures, and 710 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: they always said that change takes a lifetime. It takes 711 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: many lifetimes, and um, and this intractable issue of how 712 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: we connect is one of the biggest issues I think 713 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: of our lifetime. And uh, it's very slow. So I 714 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: am hopeful in the sense that I see every day 715 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: more and more people interested in doing this work. I 716 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: see movement lawyers. I see amazing researchers finding data, you know, 717 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: and trying to find ways to triage the way the 718 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: Internet is making us all bleed. Um. And I'm very hopeful. 719 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: It just it takes a long time, and for every 720 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: step forward, there will be three steps back and then 721 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,919 Speaker 1: maybe two steps forward, um, maybe another step forward. So 722 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: it's it's really just sort of like a dance with democracy. 723 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: Where can folks keep up with you? And can you 724 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: tell us more about the weekly trainings that pat America 725 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: is running so people can always follow me an attorney Noura, 726 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: I'm Attorney Noura on every platform, um. And then pen 727 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: America has trainings around media literacy and disinformation defense almost 728 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: weekly and that all is on penn dot org. Our 729 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: next series is going to focus on black and Latino 730 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: mistrust around the vaccination process and try to help walk 731 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: people through why hesitancy is okay, why it's okay to question, 732 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, is the vaccine good? Should I get it? Um? 733 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: And so we'll be doing a series around like disinformation 734 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: and COVID later this month, and then we're also going 735 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: to be doing work on how community organized ers can 736 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: embed messaging in their work with communities. We really want 737 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: to empower people to feel like they know how to 738 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: talk about these issues when someone comes to them. So 739 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: more to come Penn dot org. You can check it 740 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: all out. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us 741 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing 742 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. We'd love 743 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: to hear from you at Hello at Tango dot com. 744 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: Dis Informed is brought to you by There Are No 745 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,280 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. It's a production of iHeart Radio 746 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: and Unbust creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tary 747 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: Harrison is our supervising producer, and engineer. Michaelmato is our 748 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. For more great podcasts, 749 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 750 00:42:50,320 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Tw