WEBVTT - Psychedelics Playlist: The Manifested Mind, Part 3 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.760 My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:13.320 of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.280 welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind? My name is 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.919 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:23.040 part three of our exploration of psychedelics. These compounds that 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.440 lead to the mind manifesting experiences which we've been describing 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.520 in the past couple of episodes. Now, if you're just 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.040 tuning in, we recommend that you probably should go and 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.600 check out the previous two episodes. First, this is probably 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.559 one it's not best to jump in midstream, right, Yeah, 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:43.360 it's a continuous, though at times meandering journey. The history 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.080 of psychedelics not an all inclusive history, and so we've 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:48.960 stressed multiple times, you know, there's no way that we 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.320 can cover all of the studies, all the curious tidbits 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.720 of history, all the various um traditional uses of psychedelic substances. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.040 So certainly we implore you to to check out some 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.160 of the sources we've been ation to hear and explore 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.520 them for yourselves, as well as you know, additional resources. Right, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.880 and so in the previous episodes we mentioned some books 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:08.840 that have been part of our guides on the way through. 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.480 I know you've been enjoying some of the works of 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.840 Terrence McKenna and Michael Pollen as well. Been reading on that. Yeah. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.479 Michael Polland's most recent book, How to Change Your Mind, 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.800 is a great book about psychedelics that covers a lot 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.520 of the same ground as some some history, some science, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:27.080 and especially this recent renaissance in psychedelic research and how 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.440 it there's renewed interest I think since like the early 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.080 to mid two thousand's, especially about the clinical significance of psychedelics, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.840 how they could actually be used to treat mental conditions, addictions, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.280 various problems people have, UH, and that they're not just 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.520 a recreational drug, though there are also plenty of people 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.640 who would make the case that it might not be 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.400 a bad thing to use them recreationally. We're we're not 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.600 going to try to evangelize or demonize either way or 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.600 recommend that you use them. We just want to be descriptive, right, 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:00.640 But we will we will discus us some of these 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.120 viewpoints that are brought up regarding UH, the beyond medicinal 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.720 uses of psychedelics, UH and UH as far as the 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.760 modern stuff, like again we're living in an exciting time 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.240 when they're they're all these these current studies going on, 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.040 and we're revealing more and more about how psychedelics can 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.959 be used to uh to help treat various UH problems, 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.400 psychological problems, addictions, etcetera. We're probably gonna get into most 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.040 of that in the following episode. This episode is largely 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.320 going to deal with some of the original studies that 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:35.080 we're taking place, especially in the nineteen fifties. Yeah, uh so, Yeah, 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:37.000 this is a thing that comes as a surprise to 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:38.720 a lot of people who, you know, if you think 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.720 about the the origins of the drug war, the counterculture 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.760 of the nineteen sixties, and I don't know, maybe you 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.920 have some various ideas about the square nineteen fifties, it 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.040 might come as a shock to you that there was 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.760 a flourishing body of psychedelic research going on during the 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.880 nineteen fifties and early nineteen sixties, especially focusing on LSD 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.280 and the treatment of things like alcohol is him in 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:04.440 the nineteen fifties and then later the use of psilocybin 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.320 and various types of research in the early to mid 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.600 nineteen sixties. YEA, Psychedelics did not just emerge from a 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.920 van at Woodstock and start corrupting the youth of America. 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:17.920 Uh Now, now, before we go any further, I do 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.679 want to take a step back for just a little bit, 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.120 and I wanted to talk about about fun Guy or 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.600 fungi if you will, Um, just in fungi if you're 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.920 making a pizza. Isn't that the Italian way to say it. 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:35.280 I've also watched like British documentaries where they for for fungi, 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:37.680 but I'm I'm more of a fun guy, so I 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:39.600 like go like go for I tend to go for 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.040 fun Guy. Let's go with fun Guy, all right? So, um, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:43.920 I just want to take you a step back and 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.160 just talk about just how weird and wonderful the entire 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.440 Kingdom of fun Guy really is. Yeah. Well, and we 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.280 should say the reason for that, of course, if you've 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.320 been with us the last two episodes, is that of 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.360 all the psychedelics that we've looked at, the most focus 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.600 has been on psilocybin mushrooms, right, and even LSD is 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.880 derived from urgat, which is a fun Guy. So so 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.119 that so the the fungal element here is is very 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:13.920 rich and second, so yeah, the kingdom fung gui because 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.960 fungi are their own kingdom. Uh. We often associate them 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.360 with plants in kind of an informal way. Um, you know, 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.000 but we and they were considered plants of until the 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.960 later half of the twentieth century. But there's something different, 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.839 of course. Uh. They're thought to outnumber plants species on 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.760 a scale of ten to one, and they all descended 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.880 from a single species that derived from a common ancestor 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.919 with animals about eight hundred million to nine hundred million 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.600 years ago. Is it true that, uh, phylogenetically, humans are 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.200 more closely related to fungi than to plants. I think 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.280 that's that that is, that is what I have read, 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.120 and and it's an amazing thing to think about. It's 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.400 also something that you know, it's that fact that leads 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.719 some people to wonder about our relationship with fung gui. Um. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.400 You know why in some cases we have this uh, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.240 this close relationship because ultimately fun guy have a lot 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.360 more in common with us than they do with plants. Um. 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.720 And and again that's interesting considering the close relationship who 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:16.359 we have with them, and not only us, so there 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:17.880 are other animals as well. I mean think that the 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.719 leaf cutter ants that stand out is one of the 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.159 most impressive fung gui dependent species due to their practice 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:29.640 of fungal agriculture, their mushroom farmers. Yeah, because you think 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.600 about how humans use fun guy. We've certainly been focusing 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.760 on psychedelics, but certainly fun guy factor into our cuisine, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:41.159 into our medicines, both in in major ways, but in 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.640 also in ways we don't you know, major and obvious ways, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:45.760 but also in ways we maybe don't think about as much. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.680 Because certainly you think about cooking and mushrooms, you think 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.480 about culinary mushrooms that you buy at the store, which 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.279 I love mushrooms one of my favorite ingredients. Yeah, of course, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.240 not every edible mushroom can be cultivated. I got to 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.680 learn about this over the weekend. I went with a 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.760 lie S servalists on a on a mushroom foraging walk 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.080 and we get to pick a few different mushrooms that 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.760 cannot be uh cultivated at least can't be cultivated in 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.360 a you know, a dependable manner, and got to bring 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.240 some home and eat them. Is that why chantrell's are 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.719 so expensive? You can't grow them on a farm. Yeah? Um, well, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.400 I forget the exact species you know, but there are 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.560 several varieties like that where if if local restaurant is 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.160 serving them, they have to depend on foragers bringing them 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.520 in and selling them. And so a lot of a 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.520 lot of foragers, a lot of mushroom enthusiasts kind of 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:38.360 pay for their hobby by selling their mushrooms to local restaurants. Interesting, 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:40.919 but yeah, so there's that level. I would obviously we 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.920 eat them, but they're also you know, ingredients in many 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.400 different foods, especially modern processed foods, and they're an important part, 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.560 an essential part of the fermentation process yeast. Yeah, and 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:53.960 you don't have to be drinking some sort of weird 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.440 mushroom tea to be partaking of medicinal fun guy, because 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.479 of course we have penicillin to get it, which you 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:03.680 know is I would love to do a future episode 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.479 of our other podcast, Invention on penicillin because in terms 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:12.239 of fungal inventions or discoveries however you want to describe it, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.880 like that is that is a major one and and 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.800 it is totally fun. Guy depended it came from mold growth, right, 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.120 which of course is a fungus. And then on top 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.040 of that, you know, we also have we talked about 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.119 the microbiome a lot, but we also have a microbiome 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.960 which is a small but significant portion of the human 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.760 bodies overall microbiome. UH Fungi also play a crucial role 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.280 in the nutrient exchange of trees, growing around their roots 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.560 like fungal gloves and exchanging nitrogen for sugars. Uh and 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.840 this forms the basis of what some researchers call the 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.920 wood wide web, which is kind of that that's a 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.280 little too cute. That's a little it's a little too cute, 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:55.560 because ultimately it's like really just mind blowingly weird to 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.760 think about, because we're talking about a fungal network of hype. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.840 Remember that a mushroom. We we often think of the 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.040 mushroom as the thing itself, but the mushroom is just 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.240 the fruiting body um and the you know, the the 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:12.720 spores viewing death emergence of a larger organism. And so 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.640 the these this network of hi fi underground and growing 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:20.120 around the trees and between trees. It allows for the 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:24.160 plants to distribute resources such as sugar, nitrogen, and phosphorus, 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.600 you know, between one tree and another. Uh and by 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:32.480 some definitions, this comprises a form of communication these types 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:37.560 of thinking can get really psychedelic on their own. Oh absolutely, Um, 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:42.240 mycologist Paul stainments, for instance, who did we mention the 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.120 previous several times? So yeah, he's he's like a mushroom 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.480 answer for everything. Guy, uh, you know, very important figure 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.560 and modern mycology. And he's gone so far as to 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.760 to suggest, according to Michael Pollen in his book, that 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.760 these networks are in some sense conscious, that they're aware 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.239 of their environment and they're able to respond to challenges accordingly, 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.720 and Paul and says that that initially he thought this 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.560 was mere metaphor you know that clearly statements is just 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:12.480 being overly enthusiastic and metaphoric about what's going on with 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.640 the systems, but that he thinks that growing evidence actually 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.520 suggested it might be there might be more involved here. Well, 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.280 I think this depends heavily on just simply what you 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.040 mean when you use the word conscious, because there I 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.560 think you can definitely make the case that mushrooms, in 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.920 very interesting and surprising ways, are aware of their environments, 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.880 you know, able to respond to to stimuli and stuff 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.280 like that. I think it would be much harder to 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.240 make the case that, you know, the thing that we 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.839 think of as like the hard problem of consciousness, meaning 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.880 that it is having a subjective experience. There's something that 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:50.280 it's like to be the mushroom. H I'm not saying 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.640 that that's not true, but I don't know what the 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.120 evidence for that. I think it's much more of a 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.240 stretch to make that case. Now. On a on a 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.559 similar similar lines, though, I got to your Eduardo Cone, 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.960 Associate Professor of Anthropology at McGill University UH speak on 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.439 basically the same topic at the twenty nineteen World Science Festival. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.880 He's the author of a book titled How Forests Think, 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.160 and he's worked extensively with Amazonian people in his work, 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.920 especially considering concerning their use of psychedelic substances. But he's 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.120 focused on the same issue of like the use of 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.160 fungal networks in the soil within forests as a as 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.320 a type of communication or even thought. Yeah, he gets 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.240 into this as well. So just to give you an idea, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.240 because it's ultimately, you know, kind of a heady concept, 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.120 but but it's basically this idea that not that you 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.920 have non human entities that quote unquote think via an 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:50.640 ability to represent, produce and interpret signs interesting and so 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:52.440 that this is uh. This is a quote from his 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:57.720 book How Forests Think. Quote. Life is a constitutively semiotic. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.520 That is, life is through and through the product of 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:06.160 sign processes. What differentiates life from the inanimate physical world 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.160 is that life forms represent the world in some way 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.600 or another, and these representations are intrinsic to their being. 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.760 What we share with non human living creatures, then, is 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.319 not our embodiment, as certain strains of phenomenological approaches would hold, 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.439 but the fact that we all live with and through signs. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.600 We all use signs as canes that represent part of 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.160 the world to us in some way or another. In 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:33.720 doing so, signs make us what we are. Interesting semiotic 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.160 definition of life. I don't know if I've ever encountered 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.199 that before. And I took a class on semiotics. Oh yeah, No, 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.160 I was that kind of Weirdough. Well, I'm very interested 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.760 in his his thoughts and his work. I'd I'd love 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:47.760 to actually see about having him on the show in 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.800 the future. But like I said, he's worked extensively with 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.280 Amazonian peoples and explore their use of ayahuasca, and he 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:59.079 said that Amazonians use several technologies including psychedelics, but also 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:03.040 dreams to connect with the mind of the forest, and 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.839 he says that these approaches break down the way language 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.200 tells us what we are. They help them find a 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:12.520 path forward, path of healing and problem solving. And he 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.959 also pointed out that the Shamans of the Amazon like 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.240 basically have a message for the rest of the world. 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.440 They want us to know that the world is a 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.840 living world and that we have to connect ourselves with 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.600 the mind of the forest to save ourselves from the 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.880 planetary depression that we are now entering into. And I 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.480 found this really interesting because this is UH, even though 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.200 Cone to my knowledge that never mentioned Terence McKinnon his work, 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:38.960 but some of this like lines up with the messages 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.320 that mckinna had in The Food of the Gods and 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.880 his other work regarding UH. This idea of an archaic revival, 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:51.000 a necessary reconvergence with the natural world through psychedelics and 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.640 UM and at least in mckinna's definition, and overall, you 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.319 know Bohemian thread of human cultures to save us u 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.199 from the you know, the doom of a nature deprived, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.640 ego driven dominator culture, to save us from silent running. Yeah, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.920 yeah in a way. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, there it matches 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.280 up with this theory. I mean this, uh, this viewpoint 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.440 of modern life will come back to this that you 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.679 see this throughout a lot of the a lot of 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:21.160 psychedelic literature and also just sort of counterculture nineteen sixties messaging, 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:23.599 including Silent Running, which is very much a product of 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.240 that time, the science fiction film that we've discussed previously 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.400 on the show. Now Cone mentioned in the world Science 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.480 Festivally he thinks even our modern fascination with psychedelics maybe 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.120 a symptom of our disconnection with nature. And he says 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.480 the solution isn't simply to to you know, take a 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:45.240 psyche cadelic substance, but to rather live psychedelically, to live live, 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.960 to be in the emergent mind. What exactly do you 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.560 think he meant by that quote to, like, what is 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.520 the emergent mind being there? Um my understanding, And like 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:56.960 I said, perhaps we can get him on the show 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.520 to discuss these these topics in greater depth. But I 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.680 think he's he's talking about this basic idea that again 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.160 you see again and again in the among advocates of 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.120 psychedelic that there's there's something wrong with modern humans, that 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.960 we're cut off from each other, that we're we're sort 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.960 of in these little individual cells of the mind, and 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.480 we are in many cases have great difficulty in being 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.720 part of some sort of a larger system. Uh, you know, 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.080 it's it maybe a bit elaborate to you know, to 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:27.560 think of it. I mean, I don't know if I 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.880 would I would describe it. And my understanding is like 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.520 an emergent mind, you know. But but but that's kind 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.600 of the vibe I get from the idea that like 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.760 we're we're cut off from each other, that we don't 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.200 understand each other, we don't understand nature. Uh, you know, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.120 we're all wrapped up in our own egos, and if 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.480 we could break through those boundaries, uh, that we would 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.640 have a better relationship with each other and with the world. 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.240 Like so often in the world of psychedelics and stuff 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.520 coming from psychedelic enthusiasts, that that's the kind of statement 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.680 that is either true, really profound, or extremely banal. Yeah, 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:04.240 I mean, I yeah, I get it, because I know 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.400 a lot of people out there are probably shaking their 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.920 hands as saying like, well, that just sounds like hippy nonsense, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.400 and it's not even new hippie nonsense. It's hippie nonsense 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.640 I've heard time and time again. But for my own part, 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.560 you know, I think, yeah, you can be overly optimistic 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.640 about a lot of this stuff. But on the other hand, 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.600 you know, you look at the literature, the scientific literature 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.120 that that is that shows us and is continuing to 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.200 show us what psychedelics can do. I think at this 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.480 point it's you know, it's it's more a question of, like, 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.520 at what level are psychedelics useful? Uh, you know, is 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.680 it is it purely in the clinical world, Is it 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.080 purely among you know, people who are suffering from some 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.800 condition or another, or does it go beyond that? You know? 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.240 I I think it depends on who's advocating on where 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.960 that line should be drawn. I mean, some people draw 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.200 it all the way at the horizon. Where you draw it, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.640 I think it's clearly a source of the conflict that 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:01.120 led to the demonization of psychedelics and to the sort 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.280 of closing of the psychedelic research regime in the in 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.480 the mid to late nineteen sixties. Right. Yeah, Well, on 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.560 that note, let's let's go to the nineteen sixties. In fact, 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.600 let's go to the nineteen fifties. Okay, let's go. Let's 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.080 go back. In fact, let's go to the nineteen let's 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:17.400 do it. I'll take you up, and that we'll go 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.360 all the way back to the forties. And let's just 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:25.560 discuss twentieth century psychedelic research itself. So, as we've discussed, 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.680 most of these substances are nothing. Humans have used them 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.120 for thousands of years, and even the synthesized substance LSD, 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.880 of course is derived from a good fun guy that 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.480 has been around forever as well. Right, But there was 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.680 certainly a period of time between Albert Hoffman's nineteen forty 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.280 three bicycle ride and Nixon's Controlled Substance Act of nineteen 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.120 seventy in which there were tons of studies that examined 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.680 psychedelics and and and especially LSD in many cases because 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.640 it was more readily available at the time. One reason, also, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.920 I think, is that the pharmaceutical manufacturer that Albert hof 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.880 On worked for in the nineteen thirties and forties, uh Sandoz, 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.200 which I guess held the patent on LSD, was just 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.440 giving it out like candy. Basically, they were I think 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.040 they were trying to find uses for it and their 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:15.960 Their method of doing that was like, well, let's just 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.800 give it for free to tons of researchers and they'll 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:20.679 find a good way to use it. Yeah, it's kind 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.359 of like in the Lorax, the sneed was invented, which 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.520 everyone needs. Like, if you invented this thing that clearly 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.000 has some sort of use, but you're not exactly sure 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:29.800 how to market it, You're not sure what the the 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:31.720 uses for it, you you kind of just let everybody 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.360 play with it so you can figure out how you're 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.879 going to make your billions of dollars off of it. 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.639 But I don't say that to undermine the fact that 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.960 it really does seem like some researchers were finding extremely 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.000 promising clinical uses for LSD in the nineteen fifties. Yeah, 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.640 particularly in how they might be used to treat addiction, depression, UM, 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:55.119 obsessive compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, autism, and end of life anxiety. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.440 So in his book, Michael Pollen chats with Stephen Ross 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.159 m D at the n y U Psilocybin Cancer Anxiety Study, 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:04.680 which of course comes back to that end of life 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.520 anxiety question that was explored earlier. I guess we'll explore 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.960 that more, probably in the next episode. Yeah, we will. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.919 But in the book, uh Ross mentions to Pollen that 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.840 you know, these efforts involved roughly forty research participants in 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.760 more than a thousand clinical papers. So when we're talking 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:25.240 about LSD studies of of the of the nineteen fifties, 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.440 for instance, you know, we're not talking about where we're 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.600 gonna highlight a few isolated studies, but we're not talking 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.840 about like just a study here, study there. You know, 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.600 there was a lot of research going on. It was huge. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.639 It wasn't just a blip. Yeah, And initially, reach the 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.679 researchers thought that LSD and later psilocybin, that they might 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.600 be used to understand psychosis, as they believe that individuals 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.560 who are using these substances to play displayed similar thoughts 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.800 and behavior, And so clinicians also thought that, well, you 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.680 could take one of these substances yourself and therefore get 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.520 a taste of what a psychotic episode is like and 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.480 then be better able to empathize with a patient exactly. 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.240 And in this vein the same compounds we now refer 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.119 to as psychedelic were then referred to by many clinicians 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.600 as psychoto mimetics. Mimicking the state of psychosis, so your 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.639 therapists could take this in order to understand what you 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.840 were going through. Now, key figure from this period, uh English, Uh, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:28.000 psychiatrist Humphrey Osmond entered the picture, and he figured that Okay, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.840 if you had a substance like mescaline, and if it 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.560 could if it could induce this sort of symptom, that 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:35.880 these sort of symptoms in in a in a human 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.480 who took it, then perhaps uh, you know, schizophrenia was 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.160 due to a chemical and balance in the brain, which 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:46.040 is kind of you know, ultimately an eye opening hypothesis. Right, 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.560 If if this substance makes my brain do this, then 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.600 perhaps what this patient's brain is doing is due to 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.480 something you know, very chemical in nature as well, something 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.600 that could be addressed perhaps with another chemical. Well, yeah, 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.360 I mean, and I think the middle of the twentieth 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:05.840 century period was actually a very important time for understanding 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.600 the role of physical causes in mental phenomena. Like I mean, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.119 you know, there was of course the rise of Skinnerism 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.679 like B. F. Skinner and behaviorism, which you can have 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.520 lots of criticisms about. Maybe it doesn't take into account 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.520 cognition and the mind and uh, enough about what our 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.199 thoughts and emotions mean, because it was just about what 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.240 can we do to control and measure external behaviors because 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.600 that's the only thing we have access to as scientists. 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.040 That that might not be the right approach, but it 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.840 was certainly useful in some ways to kind of clear 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.560 out I think a lot of the uh, the kind 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.960 of almost religious, kind of metaphysical baggage that had been 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.240 coming along for the ride with some versions of psychology 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:49.560 up until then, with you know, Freud and Young and 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.520 all that. Yeah. It so so you know, ultimately we 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.840 have this this push for biochemical answers to you know, 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:01.199 concerning mental issues, and this prepared alls the the the 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.800 young field of neurochemistry, leading in time to our modern 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.280 understanding of neurotransmitters and their role in our mental states, 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.840 leading to the discovery of serotonin and the development of 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:16.400 s sr I antidepressant drugs. But then, you know, some 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.960 also made the connection between the symptoms of psychedelic use 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:24.600 and delirium tremens or the d T s Uh. This 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:29.600 is of course associated with alcohol abuse, alcoholism, alcohol withdrawal. 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.840 I think so like if you you're used to extensive 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.240 alcohol consumption and then somebody stops, they might experience these 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.960 uh negative symptoms that have been referred to as the 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.480 delirium tremens. Yeah. So this led to a to the 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.520 I think by modern from a modern viewpoint, kind of 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.440 a weird idea, a weird seeming idea that you could 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:52.520 use LSD to sort of shock alcoholics into sobriety and 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.720