WEBVTT - Knowing | Ashley's Story 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.760 Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners. 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:06.280 Please take care while listening. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:13.400 When I think about him getting out, you know, I'm anxious. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.320 There's a tightness I get in my throat and in 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.320 my chest. The closer it gets to him getting out. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.759 I'm kind of at a point where I'm scared. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:41.640 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is betrayal Episode seven. Knowing 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.640 we listened to three different stories of women confronted with 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.800 the terrible reality that their partner was mixed up in 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.480 this awful, dark underworld of child sexual abuse material. Getting 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.960 through the arrest, the court system, and sentencing, the whole 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.760 experience has been an emotional to navigate. The other factor 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.199 that weighs on all three families is what happens once 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:10.280 these offenders are released. As we heard in episode five, 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.120 Mandy Hale was at work when the FBI called to 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.600 tell her that her house was being searched and her 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.399 husband was being arrested as part of an international sting. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:22.720 He was involved with one of the worst child sexual 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:27.040 assault material websites in the world. Now, her ex wants 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.720 to see their daughter, but he has not been forthcoming 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.920 about the rules of probation. In episode six, we met 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.960 erin a woman who felt so unsafe in her home 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.399 she fled with her two kids to another state once 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.920 discovering her military husband was hoarding a stash of illegal 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:48.520 photos of children. At the time I record this episode, 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.520 Ashley Lynton is starting to face the reality of what 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.000 it means for her soon to be ex husband, Jason, 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:58.640 to be a returning citizen. Earlier in the series, you 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.640 heard Jason being sent to for two counts of voyeurism 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.480 and one count of sexual exploitation of a minor. With 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.280 his time served applied, he will be back in the 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:13.320 community soon. Ashley expressed her anxiety to therapist Jessica Boum. 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.000 You're about to hear a part of one of their sessions. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.080 Jessica and Ashley allowed us to record their conversations for 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.880 the project. Jessica is a psychotherapist and the author of 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:28.920 Anxiously Attached Becoming More Secure in Life and Love. We're 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.800 dropping into the middle of their session here when Ashley 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.959 is talking about Jason calling his daughter from jail. 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.320 I allow him to call her. I have him call 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.519 my phone so it's on speaker and I can hear 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.240 it and monitor their conversations. But about a month ago 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.160 he told her something and it really really scared me. 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.359 He'd said to her, I now know that God sent 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.160 me here so I can spread the gospel. And I 0:02:55.280 --> 0:03:01.800 was like, what the fuck. No, he's there because he 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.560 chose to be a creeper. That's it. 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:05.760 What's the fear. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.320 She just doesn't get it. I feel like he's manipulating 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:12.560 her to think that, like his time there is for him. 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.320 He'll tell her God's working through me to spread the 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.160 gospel and stuff, and I'm like, no, you're there because 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:19.200 you're a pervert. 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.400 Yeah, so not taking any ownership or accountability ever. No, 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.679 in denial of his own sickness. 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:32.480 Yeah, And I just think that that denial is dangerous. Yeah, 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:33.760 so dangerous. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.560 Yeah. I mean it's so valid. I mean your fear 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:42.120 and concern makes sense, and whatever you can do legally, 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:46.040 but also just education wise and awareness wise to stay 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.760 aware and alert is needed to protect your kids. 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.960 Ashley's fears are justified. When I hear them, I start 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.320 to go down a major rabbit hole. Well, these men 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.400 go back to re offending. I'm assuming the system will 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.200 eventually grant visitation of some kind, even if it's supervised, 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.680 Will the children be safe? I have done hours of research, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.760 reading and interviewing professionals, trying to understand the motivation of 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.279 these offenders and what these women are up against once 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.520 these men are released. I ought to think of what 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.680 Ashley's close friend, Emmy said to me. Her husband and 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.200 Jason were best friends. She was really there for Ashley. 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.240 Before sentencing, Emmy submitted a letter to the judge where 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.120 she expressed fear for the future. 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.120 He is a threat, a danger to everyone around him. 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.240 Each day he is in the presence of what could 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.840 be his next victim, a child walking to her friends school, 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.320 a child at a grocery store, or even a gas station. 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.680 That thought haunts me to my very core every moment 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.200 of my life. Now I have seen the devastation his 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.840 actions have caused. I pray that justice will protect this 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:08.159 young family and allow them some semblance of peace to 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.240 pick up the pieces of the lives Jason has shattered. 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.160 Today. It's Ashley and Mandy and Aaron's family, but we're 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.039 all living in communities with people looking at seesam do 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.680 a quick Internet search for child pornography and arrest. It's 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:27.279 a sobering experience. I'm not an expert. I'm just someone 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.719 who wants to root out a growing problem. It starts 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.880 with understanding what drives these offenders, how people access seesam, 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.400 and why our government is struggling to get a handle 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.120 on it. I started by speaking with some people to 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.960 help shed light on the psychology of offenders like Jason. 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.680 Doctor Jonathan Boone has spent years studying and assessing sex offenders. 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.839 For nearly two decades, he has worked for the Federal 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.400 Bureau of Prisons as well as in County Jail. I 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.479 met him in his office in Salt Lake City. 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.920 I'm a clinical psychologist with expertise forensic psychology. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.960 Doctor Bohone has worked with many child sexual exploitation offenders. 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.720 I asked about the correlation between consuming seesam and pedophilia. 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.960 He could say that somebody who is consuming child pornography 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.680 and masturbating to that and acting on their sexual urges 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.240 and trading that or downloading it, that they could be 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.560 classified as someone who has a pedophilic disorder. 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.240 When I met with doctor Boone, he showed me the 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.640 definition of a pedophilic disorder straight out of the Diagnostic 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.320 and Statistical Manual of mental disorders the DSM, but the 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.320 DSM does not speak to consumption of SESAM specifically. Much 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.560 of the general public assumes that those who watch seesam 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.080 are people with pedophilia, but the dialogue around the topic 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.920 is nuanced and it falls under both psychiatric and behavioral 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.479 and there appears to be a leading school of thought 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:55.360 about the behavior. So why people consume this material pornography 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:02.400 and its pervasiveness. Tom Squire is the clinical director for 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.360 the Lucy Faithful Foundation in the United Kingdom. They are 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.520 a charity who saw mission is dedicated to preventing child 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:14.960 sexual abuse. Through the Foundation, Lucy Faithful runs Stop It Now, 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.080 a deterns campaign regarding the viewing of indecent images of 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.320 children on the internet. Tom is a cognitive behavioral treatment 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.440 specialist who has also work with sex offenders for twenty years. 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.240 Thousands of the people who contacted us at Stop It 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.440 Now have reported that their starting point was accessing adult 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.880 pornography and then from their online behavior and their sexual 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.320 behavior escalated and they cross those thresholds and boundaries into 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.040 abusive behavior involving children. There's also some research about the 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.600 nature of adult pornography which focused upon the way in 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.600 which it was described, so rather than its content, the 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.240 language that was used to describe it. On adult science, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.200 you know, very common terminology might be for teenagers, or 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.360 might be about kind of incestin pornography, voyeurism, and so forth. 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.680 What was once considered taboo incess pornography, step fantasy, school 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.920 pornography is now readily available and it's free. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.360 The availability of pornography feels like it's kind of turned 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.760 the dial a little bit within society about kind of 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.560 where the boundary lies between positive and healthy eroticism and 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.480 what I think most of us would view as harmful 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:30.200 and concerning legal adult pornography. But also there's something about 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.240 that boundary becoming much more porous, and it's that that 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.920 then means that some people's decision making and they're responsible 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.640 for it, but it feels to them like an easiest 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.199 step to take because of the nature of the adult 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.520 pornography that they might have been looking at already. 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.840 And when someone watches a lot of this kind of pornography, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.880 tomsa's wires can get crossed. School pornography says plus eighteen, 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.199 but most of the girls are styled to look like schoolgirls, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:02.280 and with repeated choices like this, interests can start to shift. 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:07.520 From my experience facilitating groups with men who've offended in 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.760 this way, I would expect perhaps two or three of 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.440 them to say that they'd always struggled with the sexual 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.280 interest in children, and then I would expect most of 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.680 the rest of the groom to say, actually, no. For me, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.840 my sexual interest always felt pretty normal. I've had kind 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:27.040 of relationships with appropriate partners. However, in the context of 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.559 the Internet, I started to kind of cross these thresholds 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.720 and to seek out content that held my attentional that 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.960 gave me a stronger emotional reaction, or conversations with children 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.040 where I could feel a sense of kind of influence 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.280 and control in a way that I cliped with adults. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.200 So our experience at the Foundation and through our work 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.400 suggests that perhaps the more common story is this kind 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.720 of route via adult pornography. But it's not the only 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:52.920 story by any stretch. 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:02.320 But doctor Bone sees it differently. 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.319 If a fifteen year old kid starts to look at pornography, 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.560 I don't think that there's going to be this devolution 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.720 of deviance or this evolution of deviants. I think that 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.400 there's something else that's already in there that then we 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.160 have access to all the stuff that's out there that 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.040 gets tripped. I think that for the most part, that's 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:26.480 more of an urban tail. My theory of pedophilia is 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.439 that there is something biologically crosswired that's going on, either 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.679 through development or genetics or poor evolution, like something has 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.160 occurred that would trick that person into wanting to consume 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.760 that kind of pornography. You then get these other guys 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:46.800 that just consume everything that there is. A child is 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.600 not a sexual creature in our minds, that some of 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.520 these men and women develop such a distorted way of 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.920 seeing the world and seeing other human beings that they 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.160 either believe or they convince themselves that that five year 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:03.680 old was coming on to them. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.760 In Tom's experience, he has found that adult pornography has 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:12.240 been the gateway for illegal content. But Tom isn't focused 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.040 on the why as much as the how, as in, 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:17.960 how did you get to this place? And how do 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.520 we stop it before it starts? And you might be surprised? 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.880 Who stop it now? Ask for help. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.280 Mind Geek are the owners of a number of kind 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.440 of mainstream adult pornography sites. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.280 Mind Geek owns Pornhub, and Uporn, among many other adult 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.000 porn entities. The team at Lucy Faithful persuaded the biggest 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.240 purveyor of pornography in the world to post a warning 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:44.320 message when someone searches for video content with children that. 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.440 Might be asking for young teenage pictures. A message would 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.679 then appear on their screen to let them know that 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.600 their search terms were both concerning, but also crucially to 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.520 let them know that confidential help is available through us 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.920 at Stop It Now, and that people could be directed 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.559 to our resources. So for us, that was a really 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.240 attractive option because we're interested in preventing people offending at 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.360 the earliest possible opportunity, and ideally before they have committed. 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.319 In the defense, we want to get the message out 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.880 to this very hard to reach group of people that 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.720 there is help available and that there is a different 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.720 decision that they can make which would minimize the risk 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:25.880 of children being harmed. 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.680 In In twenty fourteen paper on the Treatment and Management 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.480 of Child Pornography use, the authors Michael Cido and Atticunlei 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.560 Ahmed classify different types of offenders who consume child sexual 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:42.120 assault material, also known as CESAM. They found that in 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.559 some cases CESAM use might be motivated by hypersexual or 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:51.200 compulsive sexual behavior. In other cases, its use may be 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:55.240 a result of reckless or impulsive behavior or accidental access 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:00.400 or curiosity. This suggests there are different type of c 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:05.240 SAM offenders. A paraphilic group comprised of individuals who would 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:09.959 meet the diagnosis of pedophilia, A sexually compulsive or hyper 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.280 sexual group who would need assessment and treatment regarding their 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:18.120 sexual self regulation, a group of impulsive, risk taking individuals 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.720 who require more general intervention regarding their self regulation, and 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.760 a relatively low need group of accidental or curious users. 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:33.040 Depending on the classification, different recommendations, assessments, and diagnoses apply. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.760 I thought about Jason, Michael and Joel husbands and fathers. 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.000 Which type of offender do they fall into? I think 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.320 it's interesting to note they all said it wasn't sexual. 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.560 What else would they say? Maybe by saying that they 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.839 thought it would get them off the hook, maybe make 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.520 them less evil. So I asked Tom, what does someone 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.040 get out of viewing c SAM. 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:02.800 There are lots of needs at play, and I think 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:08.520 your audience would assume rightly that a key need that's 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.600 being met through the behavior is a sexual need. One 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.880 of sexual pleasure and arousal, but that's not the only need, 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.320 and in my view, there's almost always some emotional needs 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.480 that are met through the behavior. The examples of that 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.400 might be that it might provide someone with a form 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.200 of escapism from the challenges of their day to day 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.280 life and the difficulties that they're experiencing. Perhaps those difficulties 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.920 generate strong feelings for them of feeling inadequate in some 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.000 way or might be affecting their sense of self worth. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:43.320 So engaging with this sexual content adult pornography, or sexual 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.320 images of children or abusive conversations with children online provides 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.640 this kind of solace to people's sense of themselves, their 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.720 sense of kind of worth in many ways, and provides 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.800 them with this escape, and the escape then helps them 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:01.360 manage their feelings. Other examples might for some people this 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.480 might be the one part of their life where they 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.640 can experience themselves as being influential and potent, where they 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.760 can feel like their decisions and behavior are kind of 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.240 shaping their experience and also shaping the experience of someone else. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.920 In addition to being convicted on one account of sexual 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.560 exploitation of a minor, Jason was also convicted of two 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.480 counts of voyeurism for filming a veya. I asked doctor 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.480 Bone why someone would engage in that behavior. 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.400 I think that there's an element oftentimes of this sneakiness 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.760 and getting away with and I'm checking you out, and 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.200 that's kind of turning me on because you don't know 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.200 that I'm looking at you and there's like some little 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.440 power there and there's just like sneakiness. 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.320 The Utah prison system has a rehabilitation program that starts 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.360 with one of the toughest things for an offender to 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.560 accept accountability. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:54.840 It is a. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.840 Process of confronting all prior bad acts, even the ones 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:00.560 nobody knows it was about. 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.000 So they get immunity, but they have to disclose everything 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:05.840 that they've ever done and they get it out and 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.040 it takes eighteen to twenty four months typically the treatment 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:09.800 that Utah does, So. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.920 It's basically this immersive experience where they literally have to 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:14.280 like confront everything they've done. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.560 They have to write out their disclosure and then read 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.240 it to their group. That's kind of appear accountability component 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:21.560 to it. 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:23.960 I wasn't sure what the point of that was or 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.280 if people would be honest, but doctor Bone sees a 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.520 lot of value in the disclosure. 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.800 Part of any use disorder, so alcohol or porn use disorder. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.200 There's a tremendous amount of guilt and shame. But I 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.440 think that divesting oneself all this stuff in a forum 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.080 where you know you're not going to get into trouble 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.240 is probably very relieving for them. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.720 The statistics are staggering. According to the National Center for 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.840 Missing and Exploited Children, there are more than twenty nine 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.960 million reports of suspected child sexual exploitation annually. That is 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:02.520 over half a million reports. When we started the series, 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.720 we were appalled at what we perceived as short prison 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.840 sentences Joel and Michael's case, they did not serve their 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:14.560 full time, and Jason's was comparatively low. I spoke with 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.280 former You tell Us attorney John Huber about what he 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.119 was up against when he was in office. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:25.320 The problem with child pornography is it is improper in 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:31.560 our social mores, if not the law and regulations, to 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.280 talk about it for what it is. I mean to say, 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:40.000 rape of a child, sodomy of a child. That's really gruesome, 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:46.480 and yet it doesn't capture the impact of that offense 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:51.200 on that child, and it's an impact that that child 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.200 and their family live with for the rest of their lives. 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.240 You can't race that experience from a child, and we 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:03.159 know from social studies that that child will have a 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:09.000 very very difficult time in life. Why because someone stole 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:10.880 their childhood from them? 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.040 I asked John what he would like to see happen 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.800 legislatively in Utah. Where could they do better. 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:23.439 In Utah. It's not like the legislature is taking a 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.760 pass on holding child offenders accountable. In fact, let me 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:33.000 give you an example. If a person videos themselves or 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.520 has someone else film them in the act of sexually 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:41.760 abusing a child, those people directly involved in that crime 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:47.840 face twenty five years to life in prison minimum mandatory 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.760 penalty into Utah State prison under Utah law. That surpasses 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.840 the possible sentence that you could get in federal court 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:00.280 for that same offense. So they take this very serious, 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:05.320 as anyone would and should. My concern is with the 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:10.320 run of the meal cases. This goes on constantly, dozens 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:15.119 upon hundreds of cases where you have these images and 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:21.360 collections and trading images and bartering them like their baseball cards. 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.880 It's those offenders that I am so concerned about because 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:31.760 they're not getting the attention in court or according to 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.679 state law that I believe they should. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:37.960 When he says run of the mill, he's referring to 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:43.000 cases like Jason Joel and even the one his office prosecuted, Michael. 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.320 Individuals who aren't necessarily hands on are creating their own content. 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.080 But these offenders are perpetuating the trade and production of 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:58.000 seesam by consuming the content. By doing so, they are 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:03.400 sustaining and promoting in every growing market, which means more 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.320 sexual exploitation, more child abuse. 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.200 You think about the world of child pornography and the 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:16.040 waves of offenders that are sweeping through our courts across 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.600 all the states. Do we say, well, there's so many, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.480 we can't do anything. Do we need to think of 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.440 a different way to handle these offenders because there are 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.399 so many, or because some view it as an addiction problem. 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:35.320 To me, there's a huge difference between someone who gets 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:40.240 caught in a cycle of addiction and abuse of drugs 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.520 and their life spirals out of control and they make 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.600 very poor decisions. The risk associated with that person, even 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:53.120 if they succumb to overdose and they pass away, that 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:59.560 price seems different than shifting the risk onto the community 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.280 to say, we'll do our best on this vector of 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.960 child pornography, and we'll try to give them chances to rehabilitate. 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.760 And such the risk there is to their next child victim, 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.119 how can we say we can absorb that risk as 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.000 a community or a family. The price is too high, 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.680 because the price is a child's life and their family 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:26.879 and their friends, and that burden that they're going to 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.720 have to carry because an adult took their innocence away 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:40.760 from them. 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.360 The price is high, and there is trauma all around. 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.439 While no damage can possibly compare to the victims of 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:53.760 sexual exploitation, the women we've met really are victims themselves. 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.840 There's a growing body of research that perhaps the majority 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.600 of partners in this situation would make the diagnostic threshold 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.520 for post traumatic stress disorder, That the impact of police 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:10.879 investigations has huge detrimental effect potentially on all aspects of 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.280 their life, their employment, they're you know, kind of their 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.240 family relationships, where they're living, and so forth, and that 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.679 family members to share this fear of public exposure and 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:23.879 stigma and shame by association because in the majority of cases, 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.840 there is no reason why other family members ought to 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:30.600 have known or ought to have suspected this absolutely. 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.480 I'm sure Erin, Mandy, and Ashley would all love to 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.560 hear someone say it out loud. On this side of 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.440 the pond, I don't think any of them felt that 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.640 they were treated as victims with PTSD. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:48.360 This kind of metaphorical bomb going off in people's lives, 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.040 and this moment of discovery that the person who was 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:56.320 their partner, their husband, their adult son, their father has 0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:00.000 been behaving in a way which typically they'd never imagine 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:03.680 and their wildest dreams might be the truth of the matter, 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.800 with devastating consequences for them. So there's a recognition in 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:09.919 recent years, and we're keen to kind of promote that 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:13.280 awareness about the impact and needs of these people in 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:13.920 their own right. 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:18.840 I hope, in the spirit of recognizing those impacted, family, 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.480 friends and children continue to be a focus of support. 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.800 Like Tom said, a bomb went off in Ashley's life 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:30.960 and she has been left picking up the pieces. She's 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.080 been doing a lot of work in therapy in an 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.359 effort to not let this whole experience break her. She 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.960 can't change what happened, but in this session with Jessica, 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:42.840 they talk about what she has learned I. 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:45.439 Think I decide that's what life is. It's just a 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:50.560 series of fires that we just constantly put out really 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:51.680 really hard lessons. 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:53.960 I'm like, okay, at the School of Life, I've taken 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:56.119 enough lessons for a little while and need a little break. 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.639 Yeah, Like, Universe, give me a week, like one week, 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:10.840 just let everything go smooth. Yeah. I realized that I 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:15.040 really don't let myself cry because I think in any 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.439 moment in my life when things have been really hard, 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:21.320 I'm able to disassociate a little bit. Yeah. 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.639 Well, and someone that dissociating is healthy in order to 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.000 get through life, and then in the right environments with 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.560 the right people, it's okay to let that down because 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.840 it's not about feeling sorry for yourself. It's about forming 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:38.040 compassion and empathy and understanding. 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.560 But there is one area where Jessica noticed Ashley would 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:43.320 get emotional when it came to Jason. 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:45.600 One of the things that came up for me was 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:50.800 when he was in the bedroom and kind of distancing 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.400 himself from you for months, and you were just trying 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:57.000 harder and harder and harder to get back into connection. 0:24:58.080 --> 0:24:59.959 That's where a lot of the suddenness came up. 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:04.119 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I was like, 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:07.199