1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 1: Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners.

2
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 1: Please take care while listening.

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,400
Speaker 2: When I think about him getting out, you know, I'm anxious.

4
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,320
Speaker 2: There's a tightness I get in my throat and in

5
00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 2: my chest. The closer it gets to him getting out.

6
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,759
Speaker 2: I'm kind of at a point where I'm scared.

7
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is betrayal Episode seven. Knowing

8
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 1: we listened to three different stories of women confronted with

9
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 1: the terrible reality that their partner was mixed up in

10
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: this awful, dark underworld of child sexual abuse material. Getting

11
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 1: through the arrest, the court system, and sentencing, the whole

12
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,760
Speaker 1: experience has been an emotional to navigate. The other factor

13
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,199
Speaker 1: that weighs on all three families is what happens once

14
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,280
Speaker 1: these offenders are released. As we heard in episode five,

15
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,120
Speaker 1: Mandy Hale was at work when the FBI called to

16
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,600
Speaker 1: tell her that her house was being searched and her

17
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,399
Speaker 1: husband was being arrested as part of an international sting.

18
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,720
Speaker 1: He was involved with one of the worst child sexual

19
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,040
Speaker 1: assault material websites in the world. Now, her ex wants

20
00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 1: to see their daughter, but he has not been forthcoming

21
00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 1: about the rules of probation. In episode six, we met

22
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,960
Speaker 1: erin a woman who felt so unsafe in her home

23
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 1: she fled with her two kids to another state once

24
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 1: discovering her military husband was hoarding a stash of illegal

25
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 1: photos of children. At the time I record this episode,

26
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: Ashley Lynton is starting to face the reality of what

27
00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 1: it means for her soon to be ex husband, Jason,

28
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 1: to be a returning citizen. Earlier in the series, you

29
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: heard Jason being sent to for two counts of voyeurism

30
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 1: and one count of sexual exploitation of a minor. With

31
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,280
Speaker 1: his time served applied, he will be back in the

32
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 1: community soon. Ashley expressed her anxiety to therapist Jessica Boum.

33
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,000
Speaker 1: You're about to hear a part of one of their sessions.

34
00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,080
Speaker 1: Jessica and Ashley allowed us to record their conversations for

35
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: the project. Jessica is a psychotherapist and the author of

36
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,920
Speaker 1: Anxiously Attached Becoming More Secure in Life and Love. We're

37
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: dropping into the middle of their session here when Ashley

38
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,959
Speaker 1: is talking about Jason calling his daughter from jail.

39
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 2: I allow him to call her. I have him call

40
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,519
Speaker 2: my phone so it's on speaker and I can hear

41
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,240
Speaker 2: it and monitor their conversations. But about a month ago

42
00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 2: he told her something and it really really scared me.

43
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,359
Speaker 2: He'd said to her, I now know that God sent

44
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 2: me here so I can spread the gospel. And I

45
00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:01,800
Speaker 2: was like, what the fuck. No, he's there because he

46
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 2: chose to be a creeper. That's it.

47
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 1: What's the fear.

48
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 2: She just doesn't get it. I feel like he's manipulating

49
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 2: her to think that, like his time there is for him.

50
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,320
Speaker 2: He'll tell her God's working through me to spread the

51
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 2: gospel and stuff, and I'm like, no, you're there because

52
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:19,200
Speaker 2: you're a pervert.

53
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so not taking any ownership or accountability ever. No,

54
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,679
Speaker 3: in denial of his own sickness.

55
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just think that that denial is dangerous. Yeah,

56
00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 2: so dangerous.

57
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean it's so valid. I mean your fear

58
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,120
Speaker 3: and concern makes sense, and whatever you can do legally,

59
00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 3: but also just education wise and awareness wise to stay

60
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 3: aware and alert is needed to protect your kids.

61
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 1: Ashley's fears are justified. When I hear them, I start

62
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: to go down a major rabbit hole. Well, these men

63
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 1: go back to re offending. I'm assuming the system will

64
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: eventually grant visitation of some kind, even if it's supervised,

65
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 1: Will the children be safe? I have done hours of research,

66
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 1: reading and interviewing professionals, trying to understand the motivation of

67
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 1: these offenders and what these women are up against once

68
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,520
Speaker 1: these men are released. I ought to think of what

69
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 1: Ashley's close friend, Emmy said to me. Her husband and

70
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 1: Jason were best friends. She was really there for Ashley.

71
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: Before sentencing, Emmy submitted a letter to the judge where

72
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: she expressed fear for the future.

73
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 4: He is a threat, a danger to everyone around him.

74
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 4: Each day he is in the presence of what could

75
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,840
Speaker 4: be his next victim, a child walking to her friends school,

76
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 4: a child at a grocery store, or even a gas station.

77
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 4: That thought haunts me to my very core every moment

78
00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 4: of my life. Now I have seen the devastation his

79
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,840
Speaker 4: actions have caused. I pray that justice will protect this

80
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,159
Speaker 4: young family and allow them some semblance of peace to

81
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 4: pick up the pieces of the lives Jason has shattered.

82
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,160
Speaker 1: Today. It's Ashley and Mandy and Aaron's family, but we're

83
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,039
Speaker 1: all living in communities with people looking at seesam do

84
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 1: a quick Internet search for child pornography and arrest. It's

85
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,279
Speaker 1: a sobering experience. I'm not an expert. I'm just someone

86
00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,719
Speaker 1: who wants to root out a growing problem. It starts

87
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,880
Speaker 1: with understanding what drives these offenders, how people access seesam,

88
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,400
Speaker 1: and why our government is struggling to get a handle

89
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 1: on it. I started by speaking with some people to

90
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 1: help shed light on the psychology of offenders like Jason.

91
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 1: Doctor Jonathan Boone has spent years studying and assessing sex offenders.

92
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,839
Speaker 1: For nearly two decades, he has worked for the Federal

93
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,400
Speaker 1: Bureau of Prisons as well as in County Jail. I

94
00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,479
Speaker 1: met him in his office in Salt Lake City.

95
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 5: I'm a clinical psychologist with expertise forensic psychology.

96
00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 1: Doctor Bohone has worked with many child sexual exploitation offenders.

97
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,720
Speaker 1: I asked about the correlation between consuming seesam and pedophilia.

98
00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 5: He could say that somebody who is consuming child pornography

99
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 5: and masturbating to that and acting on their sexual urges

100
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,240
Speaker 5: and trading that or downloading it, that they could be

101
00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 5: classified as someone who has a pedophilic disorder.

102
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 1: When I met with doctor Boone, he showed me the

103
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,640
Speaker 1: definition of a pedophilic disorder straight out of the Diagnostic

104
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 1: and Statistical Manual of mental disorders the DSM, but the

105
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: DSM does not speak to consumption of SESAM specifically. Much

106
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 1: of the general public assumes that those who watch seesam

107
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,080
Speaker 1: are people with pedophilia, but the dialogue around the topic

108
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: is nuanced and it falls under both psychiatric and behavioral

109
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,479
Speaker 1: and there appears to be a leading school of thought

110
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,360
Speaker 1: about the behavior. So why people consume this material pornography

111
00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 1: and its pervasiveness. Tom Squire is the clinical director for

112
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,360
Speaker 1: the Lucy Faithful Foundation in the United Kingdom. They are

113
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 1: a charity who saw mission is dedicated to preventing child

114
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. Through the Foundation, Lucy Faithful runs Stop It Now,

115
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 1: a deterns campaign regarding the viewing of indecent images of

116
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: children on the internet. Tom is a cognitive behavioral treatment

117
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 1: specialist who has also work with sex offenders for twenty years.

118
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 6: Thousands of the people who contacted us at Stop It

119
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 6: Now have reported that their starting point was accessing adult

120
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,880
Speaker 6: pornography and then from their online behavior and their sexual

121
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 6: behavior escalated and they cross those thresholds and boundaries into

122
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 6: abusive behavior involving children. There's also some research about the

123
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 6: nature of adult pornography which focused upon the way in

124
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 6: which it was described, so rather than its content, the

125
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,240
Speaker 6: language that was used to describe it. On adult science,

126
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,200
Speaker 6: you know, very common terminology might be for teenagers, or

127
00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 6: might be about kind of incestin pornography, voyeurism, and so forth.

128
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: What was once considered taboo incess pornography, step fantasy, school

129
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 1: pornography is now readily available and it's free.

130
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 6: The availability of pornography feels like it's kind of turned

131
00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,760
Speaker 6: the dial a little bit within society about kind of

132
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,560
Speaker 6: where the boundary lies between positive and healthy eroticism and

133
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 6: what I think most of us would view as harmful

134
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 6: and concerning legal adult pornography. But also there's something about

135
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 6: that boundary becoming much more porous, and it's that that

136
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,920
Speaker 6: then means that some people's decision making and they're responsible

137
00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,640
Speaker 6: for it, but it feels to them like an easiest

138
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,199
Speaker 6: step to take because of the nature of the adult

139
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 6: pornography that they might have been looking at already.

140
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 1: And when someone watches a lot of this kind of pornography,

141
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,880
Speaker 1: tomsa's wires can get crossed. School pornography says plus eighteen,

142
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,199
Speaker 1: but most of the girls are styled to look like schoolgirls,

143
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 1: and with repeated choices like this, interests can start to shift.

144
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,520
Speaker 6: From my experience facilitating groups with men who've offended in

145
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 6: this way, I would expect perhaps two or three of

146
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,440
Speaker 6: them to say that they'd always struggled with the sexual

147
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 6: interest in children, and then I would expect most of

148
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,680
Speaker 6: the rest of the groom to say, actually, no. For me,

149
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 6: my sexual interest always felt pretty normal. I've had kind

150
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,040
Speaker 6: of relationships with appropriate partners. However, in the context of

151
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,559
Speaker 6: the Internet, I started to kind of cross these thresholds

152
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,720
Speaker 6: and to seek out content that held my attentional that

153
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,960
Speaker 6: gave me a stronger emotional reaction, or conversations with children

154
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 6: where I could feel a sense of kind of influence

155
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 6: and control in a way that I cliped with adults.

156
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,200
Speaker 6: So our experience at the Foundation and through our work

157
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 6: suggests that perhaps the more common story is this kind

158
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 6: of route via adult pornography. But it's not the only

159
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:52,920
Speaker 6: story by any stretch.

160
00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,320
Speaker 1: But doctor Bone sees it differently.

161
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,319
Speaker 5: If a fifteen year old kid starts to look at pornography,

162
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 5: I don't think that there's going to be this devolution

163
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,720
Speaker 5: of deviance or this evolution of deviants. I think that

164
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,400
Speaker 5: there's something else that's already in there that then we

165
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,160
Speaker 5: have access to all the stuff that's out there that

166
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,040
Speaker 5: gets tripped. I think that for the most part, that's

167
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,480
Speaker 5: more of an urban tail. My theory of pedophilia is

168
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,439
Speaker 5: that there is something biologically crosswired that's going on, either

169
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,679
Speaker 5: through development or genetics or poor evolution, like something has

170
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,160
Speaker 5: occurred that would trick that person into wanting to consume

171
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 5: that kind of pornography. You then get these other guys

172
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:46,800
Speaker 5: that just consume everything that there is. A child is

173
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,600
Speaker 5: not a sexual creature in our minds, that some of

174
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 5: these men and women develop such a distorted way of

175
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 5: seeing the world and seeing other human beings that they

176
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 5: either believe or they convince themselves that that five year

177
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,680
Speaker 5: old was coming on to them.

178
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 1: In Tom's experience, he has found that adult pornography has

179
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 1: been the gateway for illegal content. But Tom isn't focused

180
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,040
Speaker 1: on the why as much as the how, as in,

181
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,960
Speaker 1: how did you get to this place? And how do

182
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,520
Speaker 1: we stop it before it starts? And you might be surprised?

183
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 1: Who stop it now? Ask for help.

184
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 6: Mind Geek are the owners of a number of kind

185
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,440
Speaker 6: of mainstream adult pornography sites.

186
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: Mind Geek owns Pornhub, and Uporn, among many other adult

187
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 1: porn entities. The team at Lucy Faithful persuaded the biggest

188
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 1: purveyor of pornography in the world to post a warning

189
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,320
Speaker 1: message when someone searches for video content with children that.

190
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 6: Might be asking for young teenage pictures. A message would

191
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,679
Speaker 6: then appear on their screen to let them know that

192
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,600
Speaker 6: their search terms were both concerning, but also crucially to

193
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 6: let them know that confidential help is available through us

194
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 6: at Stop It Now, and that people could be directed

195
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,559
Speaker 6: to our resources. So for us, that was a really

196
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 6: attractive option because we're interested in preventing people offending at

197
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 6: the earliest possible opportunity, and ideally before they have committed.

198
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,319
Speaker 6: In the defense, we want to get the message out

199
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 6: to this very hard to reach group of people that

200
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,720
Speaker 6: there is help available and that there is a different

201
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,720
Speaker 6: decision that they can make which would minimize the risk

202
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:25,880
Speaker 6: of children being harmed.

203
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 1: In In twenty fourteen paper on the Treatment and Management

204
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,480
Speaker 1: of Child Pornography use, the authors Michael Cido and Atticunlei

205
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 1: Ahmed classify different types of offenders who consume child sexual

206
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 1: assault material, also known as CESAM. They found that in

207
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,559
Speaker 1: some cases CESAM use might be motivated by hypersexual or

208
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,200
Speaker 1: compulsive sexual behavior. In other cases, its use may be

209
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: a result of reckless or impulsive behavior or accidental access

210
00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:00,400
Speaker 1: or curiosity. This suggests there are different type of c

211
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 1: SAM offenders. A paraphilic group comprised of individuals who would

212
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,959
Speaker 1: meet the diagnosis of pedophilia, A sexually compulsive or hyper

213
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 1: sexual group who would need assessment and treatment regarding their

214
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 1: sexual self regulation, a group of impulsive, risk taking individuals

215
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 1: who require more general intervention regarding their self regulation, and

216
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 1: a relatively low need group of accidental or curious users.

217
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,040
Speaker 1: Depending on the classification, different recommendations, assessments, and diagnoses apply.

218
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,760
Speaker 1: I thought about Jason, Michael and Joel husbands and fathers.

219
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: Which type of offender do they fall into? I think

220
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 1: it's interesting to note they all said it wasn't sexual.

221
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,560
Speaker 1: What else would they say? Maybe by saying that they

222
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,839
Speaker 1: thought it would get them off the hook, maybe make

223
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 1: them less evil. So I asked Tom, what does someone

224
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 1: get out of viewing c SAM.

225
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 6: There are lots of needs at play, and I think

226
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 6: your audience would assume rightly that a key need that's

227
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,600
Speaker 6: being met through the behavior is a sexual need. One

228
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 6: of sexual pleasure and arousal, but that's not the only need,

229
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,320
Speaker 6: and in my view, there's almost always some emotional needs

230
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 6: that are met through the behavior. The examples of that

231
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,400
Speaker 6: might be that it might provide someone with a form

232
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,200
Speaker 6: of escapism from the challenges of their day to day

233
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,280
Speaker 6: life and the difficulties that they're experiencing. Perhaps those difficulties

234
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 6: generate strong feelings for them of feeling inadequate in some

235
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 6: way or might be affecting their sense of self worth.

236
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,320
Speaker 6: So engaging with this sexual content adult pornography, or sexual

237
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,320
Speaker 6: images of children or abusive conversations with children online provides

238
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 6: this kind of solace to people's sense of themselves, their

239
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 6: sense of kind of worth in many ways, and provides

240
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 6: them with this escape, and the escape then helps them

241
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,360
Speaker 6: manage their feelings. Other examples might for some people this

242
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 6: might be the one part of their life where they

243
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,640
Speaker 6: can experience themselves as being influential and potent, where they

244
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 6: can feel like their decisions and behavior are kind of

245
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 6: shaping their experience and also shaping the experience of someone else.

246
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,920
Speaker 1: In addition to being convicted on one account of sexual

247
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,560
Speaker 1: exploitation of a minor, Jason was also convicted of two

248
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,480
Speaker 1: counts of voyeurism for filming a veya. I asked doctor

249
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 1: Bone why someone would engage in that behavior.

250
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 5: I think that there's an element oftentimes of this sneakiness

251
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,760
Speaker 5: and getting away with and I'm checking you out, and

252
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 5: that's kind of turning me on because you don't know

253
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 5: that I'm looking at you and there's like some little

254
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,440
Speaker 5: power there and there's just like sneakiness.

255
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,320
Speaker 1: The Utah prison system has a rehabilitation program that starts

256
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 1: with one of the toughest things for an offender to

257
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 1: accept accountability.

258
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 2: It is a.

259
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 1: Process of confronting all prior bad acts, even the ones

260
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 1: nobody knows it was about.

261
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,000
Speaker 5: So they get immunity, but they have to disclose everything

262
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,840
Speaker 5: that they've ever done and they get it out and

263
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 5: it takes eighteen to twenty four months typically the treatment

264
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 5: that Utah does, So.

265
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 1: It's basically this immersive experience where they literally have to

266
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,280
Speaker 1: like confront everything they've done.

267
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 5: They have to write out their disclosure and then read

268
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 5: it to their group. That's kind of appear accountability component

269
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:21,560
Speaker 5: to it.

270
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what the point of that was or

271
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 1: if people would be honest, but doctor Bone sees a

272
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: lot of value in the disclosure.

273
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 5: Part of any use disorder, so alcohol or porn use disorder.

274
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 5: There's a tremendous amount of guilt and shame. But I

275
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 5: think that divesting oneself all this stuff in a forum

276
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 5: where you know you're not going to get into trouble

277
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 5: is probably very relieving for them.

278
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: The statistics are staggering. According to the National Center for

279
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,840
Speaker 1: Missing and Exploited Children, there are more than twenty nine

280
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 1: million reports of suspected child sexual exploitation annually. That is

281
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 1: over half a million reports. When we started the series,

282
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 1: we were appalled at what we perceived as short prison

283
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 1: sentences Joel and Michael's case, they did not serve their

284
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: full time, and Jason's was comparatively low. I spoke with

285
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: former You tell Us attorney John Huber about what he

286
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,119
Speaker 1: was up against when he was in office.

287
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 7: The problem with child pornography is it is improper in

288
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 7: our social mores, if not the law and regulations, to

289
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 7: talk about it for what it is. I mean to say,

290
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,000
Speaker 7: rape of a child, sodomy of a child. That's really gruesome,

291
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:46,480
Speaker 7: and yet it doesn't capture the impact of that offense

292
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,200
Speaker 7: on that child, and it's an impact that that child

293
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,200
Speaker 7: and their family live with for the rest of their lives.

294
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 7: You can't race that experience from a child, and we

295
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,159
Speaker 7: know from social studies that that child will have a

296
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 7: very very difficult time in life. Why because someone stole

297
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 7: their childhood from them?

298
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: I asked John what he would like to see happen

299
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,800
Speaker 1: legislatively in Utah. Where could they do better.

300
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,439
Speaker 7: In Utah. It's not like the legislature is taking a

301
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 7: pass on holding child offenders accountable. In fact, let me

302
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 7: give you an example. If a person videos themselves or

303
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 7: has someone else film them in the act of sexually

304
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 7: abusing a child, those people directly involved in that crime

305
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 7: face twenty five years to life in prison minimum mandatory

306
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 7: penalty into Utah State prison under Utah law. That surpasses

307
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 7: the possible sentence that you could get in federal court

308
00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 7: for that same offense. So they take this very serious,

309
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 7: as anyone would and should. My concern is with the

310
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 7: run of the meal cases. This goes on constantly, dozens

311
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,119
Speaker 7: upon hundreds of cases where you have these images and

312
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,360
Speaker 7: collections and trading images and bartering them like their baseball cards.

313
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,880
Speaker 7: It's those offenders that I am so concerned about because

314
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 7: they're not getting the attention in court or according to

315
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 7: state law that I believe they should.

316
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: When he says run of the mill, he's referring to

317
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 1: cases like Jason Joel and even the one his office prosecuted, Michael.

318
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: Individuals who aren't necessarily hands on are creating their own content.

319
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 1: But these offenders are perpetuating the trade and production of

320
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 1: seesam by consuming the content. By doing so, they are

321
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 1: sustaining and promoting in every growing market, which means more

322
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 1: sexual exploitation, more child abuse.

323
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 7: You think about the world of child pornography and the

324
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 7: waves of offenders that are sweeping through our courts across

325
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 7: all the states. Do we say, well, there's so many,

326
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 7: we can't do anything. Do we need to think of

327
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 7: a different way to handle these offenders because there are

328
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,399
Speaker 7: so many, or because some view it as an addiction problem.

329
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 7: To me, there's a huge difference between someone who gets

330
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 7: caught in a cycle of addiction and abuse of drugs

331
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 7: and their life spirals out of control and they make

332
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 7: very poor decisions. The risk associated with that person, even

333
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 7: if they succumb to overdose and they pass away, that

334
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 7: price seems different than shifting the risk onto the community

335
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 7: to say, we'll do our best on this vector of

336
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 7: child pornography, and we'll try to give them chances to rehabilitate.

337
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 7: And such the risk there is to their next child victim,

338
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 7: how can we say we can absorb that risk as

339
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 7: a community or a family. The price is too high,

340
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 7: because the price is a child's life and their family

341
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 7: and their friends, and that burden that they're going to

342
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 7: have to carry because an adult took their innocence away

343
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 7: from them.

344
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 1: The price is high, and there is trauma all around.

345
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 1: While no damage can possibly compare to the victims of

346
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: sexual exploitation, the women we've met really are victims themselves.

347
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 6: There's a growing body of research that perhaps the majority

348
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 6: of partners in this situation would make the diagnostic threshold

349
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 6: for post traumatic stress disorder, That the impact of police

350
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 6: investigations has huge detrimental effect potentially on all aspects of

351
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 6: their life, their employment, they're you know, kind of their

352
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 6: family relationships, where they're living, and so forth, and that

353
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 6: family members to share this fear of public exposure and

354
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 6: stigma and shame by association because in the majority of cases,

355
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 6: there is no reason why other family members ought to

356
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 6: have known or ought to have suspected this absolutely.

357
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure Erin, Mandy, and Ashley would all love to

358
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: hear someone say it out loud. On this side of

359
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: the pond, I don't think any of them felt that

360
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: they were treated as victims with PTSD.

361
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 6: This kind of metaphorical bomb going off in people's lives,

362
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 6: and this moment of discovery that the person who was

363
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 6: their partner, their husband, their adult son, their father has

364
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 6: been behaving in a way which typically they'd never imagine

365
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 6: and their wildest dreams might be the truth of the matter,

366
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 6: with devastating consequences for them. So there's a recognition in

367
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 6: recent years, and we're keen to kind of promote that

368
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 6: awareness about the impact and needs of these people in

369
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 6: their own right.

370
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: I hope, in the spirit of recognizing those impacted, family,

371
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: friends and children continue to be a focus of support.

372
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: Like Tom said, a bomb went off in Ashley's life

373
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: and she has been left picking up the pieces. She's

374
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of work in therapy in an

375
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: effort to not let this whole experience break her. She

376
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: can't change what happened, but in this session with Jessica,

377
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: they talk about what she has learned I.

378
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: Think I decide that's what life is. It's just a

379
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: series of fires that we just constantly put out really

380
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 2: really hard lessons.

381
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, at the School of Life, I've taken

382
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: enough lessons for a little while and need a little break.

383
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, Universe, give me a week, like one week,

384
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: just let everything go smooth. Yeah. I realized that I

385
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: really don't let myself cry because I think in any

386
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 2: moment in my life when things have been really hard,

387
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: I'm able to disassociate a little bit. Yeah.

388
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 3: Well, and someone that dissociating is healthy in order to

389
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 3: get through life, and then in the right environments with

390
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: the right people, it's okay to let that down because

391
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: it's not about feeling sorry for yourself. It's about forming

392
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: compassion and empathy and understanding.

393
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: But there is one area where Jessica noticed Ashley would

394
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: get emotional when it came to Jason.

395
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: One of the things that came up for me was

396
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: when he was in the bedroom and kind of distancing

397
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 3: himself from you for months, and you were just trying

398
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: harder and harder and harder to get back into connection.

399
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 3: That's where a lot of the suddenness came up.

400
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I was like,

401
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? Like what am I lacking that

402
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: he doesn't want anything to do with, you know? And

403
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: so I did a lot of like self hate and

404
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: really not good self talk and things like that. But

405
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: I was just like, you need to be kinder to me. Yeah.

406
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 3: And so when we're being rejected, instead of seeing a

407
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: problem with what's going on in their world, we internalize

408
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 3: it and it can be called developmental shame. But then

409
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: this inherent sense that something is wrong with me has

410
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 3: actually been there our whole lives, and it shows up

411
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 3: in our romantic bonds. When we don't get the love

412
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: and exchange that we want, we make it about us

413
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: and we turn it inwards.

414
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: And there was a lot going on in Jason's world

415
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: that Ashley was internalizing. We heard about the drawings, missing work,

416
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: and sitting out of family parties.

417
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: How many years of disc an action was there.

418
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: I feel like it was kind of off and on.

419
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 2: It started when I was eight months pregnant and he

420
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: had an affair. That's when I really took those rose

421
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: colored glasses off and just started noticing things. But that's

422
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: when I really started to see things changing and then

423
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: the last three years of our marriage he was a

424
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: completely different person. He's always played on flag football leagues

425
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: and he was a gamer, so he had game and

426
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: like all that stop. Every season for the University of

427
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: Utah football games. We had season tickets with all of

428
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: our friends. All of a sudden he sold our tickets

429
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: off and he's had him for like twenty years. And

430
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: then there was no adulting, Like I couldn't have a

431
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: conversation with him about anything serious I don't know, like

432
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: teenager responses and behavior and everything. If I found out

433
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: on a Tuesday that that following Saturday we were going

434
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: to be going to didn or with our family or something,

435
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell him and till maybe the morning of

436
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 2: because he just could not handle the anxiety of it,

437
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: and he would make my life hell. Also, he'd started

438
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: taking a lot of baths and would like be in

439
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: the bath for hours. And then we weren't intimate at

440
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: all at this point. And then I started serving him

441
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: like his dinner in bed, like he'd just be in

442
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: the room, so I'd bring it to him in the

443
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: room and that was it.

444
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: So he's completely isolating himself with that.

445
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: I feel embarrassed almost because I was giving it all

446
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: in those moments. I feel foolish, like I was on

447
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: a whole different planet than he was.

448
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: Nothing would have been enough.

449
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: I'm so happy that you can see that now. And

450
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: the experience of giving, giving and self abandoning is an

451
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: adaptation that we learn to get into connection when we're

452
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: terrified of losing connection to someone that we've been relying on.

453
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 8: I think you're helping women by doing your own work,

454
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 8: looking at your fears, looking at your trauma, understanding your

455
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 8: adaptive strategies, the denial system that you had in place,

456
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 8: what you were really scared of facing all of us,

457
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 8: myself included. We stay in situations sometimes longer or longer

458
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 8: than our intuition is letting us because there's an underlying

459
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 8: fear around losing our life or losing that attachment.

460
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 3: That's very valid.

461
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 8: So a lot of these women, while the behavior out

462
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 8: there is obvious, the fear of facing ourselves and starting

463
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 8: over and facing our fears. It takes a courageous person,

464
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 8: and sometimes it takes a really horrific event how to say, Okay,

465
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 8: enough is enough, this is my bottom. I need to

466
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 8: move forward and detach.

467
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: And it can be very hard. Yeah, I'm so proud myself.

468
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: Yes, you should be on the next episode of Betrayal.

469
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: A teacher in one of the country's best school districts.

470
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: It's composing as a teenager online to solicit sexually explicit

471
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: videos from an underaged girl. If you would like to

472
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayal

473
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail

474
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 1: dot com. To report a case of child sexual exploitation,

475
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: called the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's cyber

476
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: tipline at one eight hundred the Lost. If you or

477
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and

478
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: feelings towards children, reach out to Stop It Now dot org.

479
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: In the United Kingdom go to stop it now dot

480
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: org dot UK. These organizations can help. We're grateful for

481
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: your support, and one way to show support is by

482
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget

483
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a

484
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

485
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of

486
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show

487
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted

488
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 1: and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by

489
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer

490
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: Chris and Melcury. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and

491
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks to our talent Ashley Linton and

492
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: production assistant Tessa Shields. Thank you to Jessica Baum, Doctor Boone,

493
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: Tom Squire and the Lucy Faithful Foundation. Audio editing and

494
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 1: mixing by Matt do Vechio. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains.

495
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: Music library provided by my Music and For more podcasts

496
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

497
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts,